From msuhar at woh.rr.com Mon Sep 1 08:14:15 2008 From: msuhar at woh.rr.com (Mike Suhar) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 08:14:15 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt self-survey results... In-Reply-To: <48BB5DDB.2010601@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <000601c90c2c$40ad3fc0$0200a8c0@nippynet.com> You can find at "Geodesy for the Layman" at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/PUBS_LIB/Geodesy4Layman/toc.htm Mike W8RKO -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Brian Kirby Sent: Sunday, August 31, 2008 23:14 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt self-survey results... google "egm96" and "wgs84" to find about the geodetics used in GPS. there is also an old paper I believe its titled "geodesy for the layman" that will get you are started Your topo map was probably NAVD 1929, a different vertical datum. Brian Kd4FM Michael Baker wrote: > Hello, All-- > > My Thunderbolt seems to be able to determine its > Lat and Lon location coordinates with reasonable accuracy. > > However, after completing its self-survey it thinks > its elevation is 11.2 meters when the actual elevation > of its antenna (on my house roof) is 28.4 meters. > > I arrived at this value by looking at the USGS topo > map of my property, noting the elevation ABMSL where > my house is located and adding the distance from > the ground to the GPS antenna on my roof and coming up > with 28.4 meters. > > Should I store this value into POSITION/ALTITUDE? > > If I enter this value into ALTITUDE, then what? > Should I then SAVE SEGMENT? SET ACCURATE POSITION? > > Thanks, > > Mike Baker > WA4HFR > Micanopy, FL > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Mon Sep 1 08:52:18 2008 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:52:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communications In-Reply-To: <2FA1FAF9-98CC-4968-A6CE-2E68F2020B14@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 08:43:45 +1000, Neville Michie wrote: >Hello all, >I received my TBOLT from TAPR and proceeded to stoke it up. >However I have not been able to get response from TBOLTMON. >I use a laptop with a USB port driving a USB-serial converter marked >N287. >The laptop, unfortunately, runs VISTA. However I can drive an HP Z3815A >with a null modem cable and a GCRU/D with a straight cable, and I can >also drive >HOBO data loggers with these USB-serial converters. With VISTA there >is always a >lot of experimenting to find the allocated COM port number and right >baud rate etc. >Whatever I do I cannot get a response from the TBOLT. >Preliminary poking with a CRO probe shows some signals on both pin 3 >and pin 2 >of the RS232 lead. >Is it possible to accidentally put the TBOLT in a state where it does >not listen? >Does it have RS232 requirements that the serial converted does not fit? >I would be thankful of any good suggestions, >cheers, Neville Michie Hello Neville and all the others starting with Thunderbolt, TBoltMon is very helpful, but some functions are difficult to find. In case the com parameters are unknown or changing due to (MS)-OS behavier: Execute TBoltMon, select in 'ser. port window' com1 (default) and hit 'ok'. In the following main window of the program klick with the right mouse key somewhere in that main window, select in the appearing menu 'auto find all', the program will find all the existing com ports and the active port with Thunderbolt for you, passing along with the cusor to the fields, you will find in the bottom line further explanations and instructions, right clicking does sometimes open further menus. Select the active port with the green marker aside (TBolt activities found) with a mouse click. Have fun with it, regards, Arnold From w1ksz at earthlink.net Mon Sep 1 12:57:35 2008 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:57:35 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] PLO "Bricks" Wanted Message-ID: <12720660.1220288255764.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I am looking for one or two PLO "Bricks" that I can modify to lock to my 10 MHz GPSDO. The frequency range of interest is anywhere between 3 and 12 GHz. Anyone have anything I might use ? Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ From sv1bke at usa.net Mon Sep 1 14:21:52 2008 From: sv1bke at usa.net (EMMANOUIL MANTZARAS) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:21:52 +0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Odetics - Kobe Model 3100 TIA Manual ??? Message-ID: <569miasu10986S08.1220293312@cmsweb08.cms.usa.net> Hi I am searching for the Model 3000 TIA (Odetics / Kode) manual. Any idea ?? From clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 2 11:24:20 2008 From: clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au (Clint Jeffrey - VK3CSJ) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 01:24:20 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] A "Short but sweet" Reply Message-ID: <9E66C86F18194E6C9645A097BFAEB15F@ACER5630> Hi folks, I have had a number of replies to my first post, thanks guys, let me see how can I reply... Gerald...g'day, I see you're a stones through away, just checking out your QRZ.COM entry, you are definitely a well travelled fellow, I've been in Electronics Manufacturing for 30 years myself but only once got a chance to trip overseas, 10 days in China at Tianjin Beijing it was a great experince. Nice to be here too. Thomas...thanks for your kind note, Amateur Radio is definitly a great medium it is truly amazing that the amateur service world wide have so many Radio Bands allotted to us for our use from Long Wave to Microwave and with the Solar Maximum coming up in a few years time its good to have a operational HF Station one can make some great contacts, all I can say is go for it! Stan...Hi, thanks for the info on Down East Microwave, it's been a couple of years since I last visited the web site, I have purchased a few items from them in the past they definitely make some nice "toys"...I'll keep them in mind. As for Stephen N5AC web site, very interesting indeed I've already let a couple of friends of mine know about this one...thanks again. Bill...Thanks for pointing out the A32 Synthesizer, this is quite interesting and requires some futher looking into, I'm slowing building up my 10GHz station starting with kits supplied by Mark VK5EME at Minikits and with a 20 Watt TWT I got from DEM I hope to do some interesting things! David...Yes KUHNE Electronics make some very very fine equipment, a little expensive, but the quality is through and through, I purchased a 8.4GHz Pre-Amp from them for the 8.4GHz receiver, it's the key part of this project and the most expensive part, so I'm really looking after this device. If I had the money I'd be interested in a few more items!! Jim L...There is a handful of Amateurs that have quite sussessfully detected the Telemetry Signals from both NASA and ESA space probes currently roaming space, the idea is to simply detect these feably weak signals, thats the aim, trying to copy telemetry and things like pictures is a long shot considering the digital nature of transmissions these days. If you visit this site, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/ or more directly this link, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/mro/ you will see what I attempting to do, there is a Block Diagram showing the basic system setup required, I have pretty much everything I need I've just got to put it together. Joseph Ruggieri often has microwave itms for sale on eBay thats where I got my "Brick" from From clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au Tue Sep 2 11:35:01 2008 From: clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au (Clint Jeffrey - VK3CSJ) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 01:35:01 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] A "Short but sweet" Reply Message-ID: <4219D0A05D6640288374B3DDD67ACB87@ACER5630> I was falling asleep at the Keyboard an accidently sent my post to soon...aha it happens when you get old! Hi folks, I have had a number of replies to my first post, thanks guys, let me see how can I reply... Gerald...g'day, I see you're a stones through away, just checking out your QRZ.COM entry, you are definitely a well travelled fellow, I've been in Electronics Manufacturing for 30 years myself but only once got a chance to trip overseas, 10 days in China at Tianjin Beijing it was a great experience. Nice to be here too. Thomas...thanks for your kind note, Amateur Radio is definitely a great medium it is truly amazing that the amateur service world wide have so many Radio Bands allotted to us for our use from Long Wave to Microwave and with the Solar Maximum coming up in a few years time its good to have a operational HF Station one can make some great contacts, all I can say is go for it! Stan...Hi, thanks for the info on Down East Microwave, it's been a couple of years since I last visited the web site, I have purchased a few items from them in the past they definitely make some nice "toys"...I'll keep them in mind. As for Stephen N5AC web site, very interesting indeed I've already let a couple of friends of mine know about this one...thanks again. Bill...Thanks for pointing out the A32 Synthesizer, this is quite interesting and requires some further looking into, I'm slowing building up my 10GHz station starting with kits supplied by Mark VK5EME at Minikits and with a 20 Watt TWT I got from DEM I hope to do some interesting things! David...Yes KUHNE Electronics make some very very fine equipment, a little expensive, but the quality is through and through, I purchased a 8.4GHz Pre-Amp from them for the 8.4GHz receiver, it's the key part of this project and the most expensive part, so I'm really looking after this device. If I had the money I'd be interested in a few more items!! Jim L...There is a handful of Amateurs that have quite successfully detected the Telemetry Signals from both NASA and ESA space probes currently roaming space, the idea is to simply detect these feebly weak signals, that's the aim, trying to copy telemetry and things like pictures is a long shot considering the digital nature of transmissions these days. If you visit this site, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/ or more directly this link, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/mro/ you will see what I attempting to do, there is a Block Diagram showing the basic system setup required, I have pretty much everything I need I've just got to put it together. Joseph Ruggieri often has microwave items for sale on eBay that's where I got my "Brick" from, Joe currently has some items on eBay but I don't think he has any of the PLO devices left, one can always ask. Okay...I think that's it for the time being...its just gone 1:30am...must go to bed. Cheers all... Clint - VK3CSJ Melbourne From g4hup at btinternet.com Tue Sep 2 12:06:57 2008 From: g4hup at btinternet.com (dave powis) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:06:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] A "Short but sweet" Reply Message-ID: <436145.70682.qm@web86310.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Clint, Quite an impressive list of sources you've put together from the assembled replies! Also I found your pages interesting in regard to the progress with deep space reception. You may also like to look at my web information on Direct Frequency Synthesisers for providing low phase noise drive solutions for microwave oscillators strips, locked to a reference source - eg a GPSDO. url is http://g4hup.com Best 73, Dave, G4HUP ----- Original Message ---- From: Clint Jeffrey - VK3CSJ To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Tuesday, 2 September, 2008 4:35:01 PM Subject: [time-nuts] A "Short but sweet" Reply I was falling asleep at the Keyboard an accidently sent my post to soon...aha it happens when you get old! Hi folks, I have had a number of replies to my first post, thanks guys, let me see how can I reply... Gerald...g'day, I see you're a stones through away, just checking out your QRZ.COM entry, you are definitely a well travelled fellow, I've been in Electronics Manufacturing for 30 years myself but only once got a chance to trip overseas, 10 days in China at Tianjin Beijing it was a great experience. Nice to be here too. Thomas...thanks for your kind note, Amateur Radio is definitely a great medium it is truly amazing that the amateur service world wide have so many Radio Bands allotted to us for our use from Long Wave to Microwave and with the Solar Maximum coming up in a few years time its good to have a operational HF Station one can make some great contacts, all I can say is go for it! Stan...Hi, thanks for the info on Down East Microwave, it's been a couple of years since I last visited the web site, I have purchased a few items from them in the past they definitely make some nice "toys"...I'll keep them in mind. As for Stephen N5AC web site, very interesting indeed I've already let a couple of friends of mine know about this one...thanks again. Bill...Thanks for pointing out the A32 Synthesizer, this is quite interesting and requires some further looking into, I'm slowing building up my 10GHz station starting with kits supplied by Mark VK5EME at Minikits and with a 20 Watt TWT I got from DEM I hope to do some interesting things! David...Yes KUHNE Electronics make some very very fine equipment, a little expensive, but the quality is through and through, I purchased a 8.4GHz Pre-Amp from them for the 8.4GHz receiver, it's the key part of this project and the most expensive part, so I'm really looking after this device. If I had the money I'd be interested in a few more items!! Jim L...There is a handful of Amateurs that have quite successfully detected the Telemetry Signals from both NASA and ESA space probes currently roaming space, the idea is to simply detect these feebly weak signals, that's the aim, trying to copy telemetry and things like pictures is a long shot considering the digital nature of transmissions these days. If you visit this site, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/ or more directly this link, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/mro/ you will see what I attempting to do, there is a Block Diagram showing the basic system setup required, I have pretty much everything I need I've just got to put it together. Joseph Ruggieri often has microwave items for sale on eBay that's where I got my "Brick" from, Joe currently has some items on eBay but I don't think he has any of the PLO devices left, one can always ask. Okay...I think that's it for the time being...its just gone 1:30am...must go to bed. Cheers all... Clint - VK3CSJ Melbourne _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Sep 2 12:56:42 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:56:42 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] A "Short but sweet" Reply In-Reply-To: <4219D0A05D6640288374B3DDD67ACB87@ACER5630> Message-ID: Jim L...There is a handful of Amateurs that have quite successfully detected the Telemetry Signals from both NASA and ESA space probes currently roaming space, the idea is to simply detect these feebly weak signals, that's the aim, trying to copy telemetry and things like pictures is a long shot considering the digital nature of transmissions these days. --- It's somewhat challenging (except when they're doing initial commissioning when the s/c is close to earth, so there's a huge signal, although with a s/c which has a big antenna (and small beamwidth), it would have to be far enough away that you're in the foot print (or you can be close to where they happen to be pointing it). As the link you gave shows, it's certainly possible. --- as for actually demodulating.. That's a bit trickier, but not too bad. You know the general data format (because it follows CCSDS standards), so all you have to do(?) is build a suitable carrier tracking loop and the subcarrier demodulators (or for medium and high rate, where a subcarrier isn't used, a regular old PSK demodulator). Then, you'll need some sort of logic to recognize the beginning of the frames, etc.. If you can receive transfer frames, you'll be doing quite well. As for what's in the frames, I'm not sure what's published and what's not (there's all manner of ITAR and such that needs to be considered when you start talking those details) --- A lot of it is in a book called 810-5, which is available on the JPL website. http://deepspace.jpl.nasa.gov/. The link parameters are something you can probably figure out for yourself (EIRP, etc.) If you visit this site, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/ or more directly this link, http://www.uhf-satcom.com/mro/ you will see what I attempting to do, there is a Block Diagram showing the basic system setup required, I have pretty much everything I need I've just got to put it together. Joseph Ruggieri often has microwave items for sale on eBay that's where I got my "Brick" from, Joe currently has some items on eBay but I don't think he has any of the PLO devices left, one can always ask. ---- You can build a receiver a lot of ways. And a lot depends on what you want to do with it. If all you want is to see the carrier, then you're not going to need totally awesome performance, so probably any old receiver will work. Another interesting signal to look for is the radar from QuikScat at 13.402 GHz. It's got a PRF of a couple hundred hertz, and it can be detected with a LNA and a spectrum analyzer, if you know when and where to point the antenna. Jim Lux From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Wed Sep 3 04:08:26 2008 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 08:08:26 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 "factory access" ? Message-ID: <12053.1220429306@critter.freebsd.dk> I have a PRS10 here where I need to calibrate the TO value, but appearantly the software version 3.15 does not allow me to do that without the "factory access". Anyone has any insights or secrets to how to get around this ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From belanning at verizon.net Wed Sep 3 13:09:45 2008 From: belanning at verizon.net (Bruce Lanning) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:09:45 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups... References: <3A4AAEA6-260C-4855-BFB1-909EF0B3EE05@rob-vassar.com><9id3b4tn8qb7uepde9r8imugt4b8up4ep6@4ax.com><4992307F6C294EF19FAED4CDC0D32998@BRUCE> Message-ID: <6E71B9DC3C2D4D9C89DB3E34957A2C3F@BRUCE> Thanks John and sorry that I am so late in thanking you for your response to my question on xxCLONE. I have tried all of your recommendations to no avail. Guess I will write to the authors of the software. Thanks again for your input. Bruce ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neon John" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Monday, August 25, 2008 8:32 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups... > On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 17:51:35 -0400, "Bruce Lanning" > > wrote: > >>In regard to the below info, I downloaded xxclone and it does appear to be >>the type of backup program that I have been looking for, BUT I can not get >>my C: drive to come up in the source or the target window. I am running XP >>on a COMPAQ Presario if that helps. Could anyone tell me why I can not >>see >>my C: drive. It has my start up info and WINDOWS on it. > > No idea other than the brand name. Compaqs have a rep for stuff like > that. > Are you running XP? All bets are off if Vista is involved. > > I've installed xxclone on a number of client and friends' computers and > never > had a problem. It just came up and ran. > > Did you try pressing the disk management button to the right of the source > and > target slots? That brings up windows disk drive management package. What > does it show? Is your C drive an NTFS volume that is showing healthy? > > Have you turned off any services, particularly windows shadow volume copy > service? Some "optimization" websites recommend turning that service off > but > doing so disables just about every backup or clone package that runs in > multi-user mode. > > Do you have any virus bloat-ware like Norton running? If so, it might be > interfering with disk detection. I have the freebie Avast package on my > machine and before that AVG (release 8 turned into bloatware so I had to > change) running with no problems but given the amount of problems I've had > in > the past with Norton and MaCaffee, I'd be looking there. > > Have you tried since rebooting the machine? Kind of an obvious question > but I > had to ask. > > As a last resort, you might drop them a support note and ask if they've > had > any reported problems with your model computer. Maybe they'll have a > patch or > a work-around. > > John > -- > John De Armond > See my website for my current email address > http://www.neon-john.com > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN > Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom! > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.7/1629 - Release Date: 8/23/2008 > 1:16 PM > > From perseidjh at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 20:04:40 2008 From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:04:40 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard Message-ID: Today I visited a friend who collects all sorts of old electronics and asked him about mercury thermometer sensors. Turns out he had several from various GR pieces of equipment. Some are in a straight shape with "trip" temperatures of 50 or 60 degrees C. One is at a 90 degree angle with a 60 degree C trip point. I'm sure it is a very long shot but I wondered if any of these might work for the frequency standard you are rebuilding. Most of the above temperature sensors were built by "Precision". I have the part numbers. What do you think? Does it sound like any of these could be replacements for your unit? Regards, Jim From wa3frp at aol.com Wed Sep 3 21:55:00 2008 From: wa3frp at aol.com (wa3frp at aol.com) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:55:00 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CADC48602A926F-149C-CCE@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Jim, Thanks for following up on this. The thermoswitch that I'm looking for closes on reaching a trip temperature of 78C. The original unit was made by Princo. I wonder if your friend could tell me if he has any leads on a 78C thermoswitch. Thanks again, Russ -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hall To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 8:04 pm Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard Today I visited a friend who collects all sorts of old electronics and asked him about mercury thermometer sensors. Turns out he had several from various GR pieces of equipment. Some are in a straight shape with "trip" temperatures of 50 or 60 degrees C. One is at a 90 degree angle with a 60 degree C trip point. I'm sure it is a very long shot but I wondered if any of these might work for the frequency standard you are rebuilding. Most of the above temperature sensors were built by "Precision". I have the part numbers. What do you think? Does it sound like any of these could be replacements for your unit? Regards, Jim _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From perseidjh at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 22:06:32 2008 From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:06:32 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard In-Reply-To: <8CADC48602A926F-149C-CCE@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CADC48602A926F-149C-CCE@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Russ, Sorry but the only thermoswitches he has or knows about are for 60 or 70 degrees C units he has. I think he got his switches from GR crystal ovens used for BC transmitters. I imagine their requirements were less stringent than the "standards lab" standard you are rebuilding but then again you never know. Most of the thermoswitches he has were manufactured by "Precision" or at least that was written on each of them. Another thermoswitch was manufactured by "H inside a diamond, B inside a diamond". I think both the GR thermoswitches were manufactured by Precision. I wonder if you could search on eBay or other sites for that name if that is who manufactured yours. Probably a long shot but just wondering. Jim -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:55 PM To: Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > Jim, > > Thanks for following up on this. The thermoswitch that I'm looking for > closes on reaching a trip temperature of 78C. The original unit was > made by Princo. I wonder if your friend could tell me if he has any > leads on a 78C thermoswitch. > > Thanks again, > > Russ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Hall > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 8:04 pm > Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > > > > Today I visited a friend who collects all sorts of old electronics and > asked him > about mercury thermometer sensors. Turns out he had several from > various GR > pieces of equipment. Some are in a straight shape with "trip" > temperatures of > 50 or 60 degrees C. One is at a 90 degree angle with a 60 degree C > trip point. > I'm sure it is a very long shot but I wondered if any of these might > work for > the frequency standard you are rebuilding. > > Most of the above temperature sensors were built by "Precision". I > have the > part numbers. > > What do you think? Does it sound like any of these could be > replacements for > your unit? > > Regards, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wa3frp at aol.com Thu Sep 4 07:42:49 2008 From: wa3frp at aol.com (wa3frp at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:42:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard In-Reply-To: References: <8CADC48602A926F-149C-CCE@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CADC9A7E02E017-154-364@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com> Hi Jim, My thermoswitch was manufactured by Princo, a company that is still in business with headquarters in the Philadelphia area. I've googled "Princo" for the past couple of years, spoken with folks at Princo, and have a search setup in eBay. Nothing has turned up yet. I've decided to move on since I'd like to complete the restoration of the GR Standard. I purchased a Fenwal thermoswitch that comes closest to the sensitivity of the original thermoswitch. If a 78C Princo thermoswitch becomes available in the future, I'll be able to reverse the modifications that I am currently making to the inner oven. Thanks to everyone on the list for their advice and assistance. Russ WA3FRP -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hall To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard Russ, Sorry but the only thermoswitches he has or knows about are for 60 or 70 degrees C units he has. I think he got his switches from GR crystal ovens used for BC transmitters. I imagine their requirements were less stringent than the "standards lab" standard you are rebuilding but then again you never know. Most of the thermoswitches he has were manufactured by "Precision" or at least that was written on each of them. Another thermoswitch was manufactured by "H inside a diamond, B inside a diamond". I think both the GR thermoswitches were manufactured by Precision. I wonder if you could search on eBay or other sites for that name if that is who manufactured yours. Probably a long shot but just wondering. Jim -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:55 PM To: Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > Jim, > > Thanks for following up on this. The thermoswitch that I'm looking for > closes on reaching a trip temperature of 78C. The original unit was > made by Princo. I wonder if your friend could tell me if he has any > leads on a 78C thermoswitch. > > Thanks again, > > Russ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Hall > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 8:04 pm > Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > > > > Today I visited a friend who collects all sorts of old electronics and > asked him > about mercury thermometer sensors. Turns out he had several from > various GR > pieces of equipment. Some are in a straight shape with "trip" > temperatures of > 50 or 60 degrees C. One is at a 90 degree angle with a 60 degree C > trip point. > I'm sure it is a very long shot but I wondered if any of these might > work for > the frequency standard you are rebuilding. > > Most of the above temperature sensors were built by "Precision". I > have the > part numbers. > > What do you think? Does it sound like any of these could be > replacements for > your unit? > > Regards, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From ernieperes at aol.com Thu Sep 4 08:25:07 2008 From: ernieperes at aol.com (ernieperes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 08:25:07 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] DATUM OCXO In-Reply-To: <8CADC9A7E02E017-154-364@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CADC48602A926F-149C-CCE@mblk-d20.sysops.aol.com> <8CADC9A7E02E017-154-364@FWM-D41.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CADCA066DD697B-2D8-2540@Webmail-mg13.sim.aol.com> Hi Gents, Anybody having a data-sheet or any other info about the following item: DATUM OCXO 06 023034-005 10.000MHz other code on the back side: 033666 41597-005 Size is about 1,2x1,2x0,5... I have the pin assignment/voltage... but no any details. Thanks and best regards, Ernie. -----Original Message----- From: wa3frp at aol.com To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 1:42 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard Hi Jim, My thermoswitch was manufactured by Princo, a company that is still in business with headquarters in the Philadelphia area. I've googled "Princo" for the past couple of years, spoken with folks at Princo, and have a search setup in eBay. Nothing has turned up yet. I've decided to move on since I'd like to complete the restoration of the GR Standard. I purchased a Fenwal thermoswitch that comes closest to the sensitivity of the original thermoswitch. If a 78C Princo thermoswitch becomes available in the future, I'll be able to reverse the modifications that I am currently making to the inner oven. Thanks to everyone on the list for their advice and assistance. Russ WA3FRP -----Original Message----- From: Jim Hall To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:06 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard Russ, Sorry but the only thermoswitches he has or knows about are for 60 or 70 degrees C units he has. I think he got his switches from GR crystal ovens used for BC transmitters. I imagine their requirements were less stringent than the "standards lab" standard you are rebuilding but then again you never know. Most of the thermoswitches he has were manufactured by "Precision" or at least that was written on each of them. Another thermoswitch was manufactured by "H inside a diamond, B inside a diamond". I think both the GR thermoswitches were manufactured by Precision. I wonder if you could search on eBay or other sites for that name if that is who manufactured yours. Probably a long shot but just wondering. Jim -------------------------------------------------- From: Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 7:55 PM To: Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > Jim, > > Thanks for following up on this. The thermoswitch that I'm looking for > closes on reaching a trip temperature of 78C. The original unit was > made by Princo. I wonder if your friend could tell me if he has any > leads on a 78C thermoswitch. > > Thanks again, > > Russ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Hall > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 8:04 pm > Subject: [time-nuts] Description - GR 1120-AB Frequency Standard > > > > Today I visited a friend who collects all sorts of old electronics and > asked him > about mercury thermometer sensors. Turns out he had several from > various GR > pieces of equipment. Some are in a straight shape with "trip" > temperatures of > 50 or 60 degrees C. One is at a 90 degree angle with a 60 degree C > trip point. > I'm sure it is a very long shot but I wondered if any of these might > work for > the frequency standard you are rebuilding. > > Most of the above temperature sensors were built by "Precision". I > have the > part numbers. > > What do you think? Does it sound like any of these could be > replacements for > your unit? > > Regards, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 4 15:25:20 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 12:25:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. In-Reply-To: References: <00b901c8eccd$b95782b0$7300a8c0@p4253> <20080723143304.18A811165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <002301c8ecdc$8ee4aad0$0900a8c0@pc52> <001801c8ed01$1a7c19b0$0900a8c0@pc52> <20080723210020.67E951165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <4887A5BD.3040208@xtra.co.nz> <20080723220139.8796B1165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20080723151808.02d4dcf0@jpl.nasa.gov> <6.2.5.6.2.20080728163240.02dd5ed0@jpl.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <48C03620.2000909@pacific.net> Hi John: All the quartz clocks I've taken apart have a single coil, for example see: http://www.prc68.com/I/QuartzClk.shtml The drive to that coil is bi-polar and is from a single AA cell, so the driver IC must use an H-bridge. If you want to drive a clock like this at 1 PPS from a 10 MHz source you will need to use some kind of conversion circuit. That's why it's easier to generate the 32768 Hz signal and just drive the xtal pins on the clock's IC. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Neon John wrote: > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:35:53 -0700, Jim Lux wrote: > > >>> Seems to me that all the solutions proposed so far are a bit complex, trying >>> to go for the 32khz frequency when that's not necessary. The quartz analog >>> clockworks has a one or two winding stepper motor. The SIMPLEST solution is >>> to drive those coils directly with the PIC output and scrap the rest of the >>> circuitry. >> Actually, it's not even that complex... it's often an >> electromagnet/solenoid driving a conventional escapement type clock >> mechanism. Why use 2 coils when you don't ever need to go backwards? > > The clockworks that I've taken apart almost all have 2 coils. One brand has > one. They all drive a permanent magnet rotor that turns 90 degrees on each > tick. I'm not sure what the single coil design does to make sure the rotor > always turns the right direction. Or maybe it doesn't matter if the rotor > turns a cam and ratchet mechanism. I've never taken one apart far enough to > know. > >> One advantage of generating 32kHz (averaged over 1 second) is that >> you don't have to build the power driver stage to actuate that >> electromagnet.. (since it's built into the single dirt-cheap chip in >> the clock in the first place) > > No driver needed. Each coil has about a bazillion (bazillion.000000 for time > nuts) turns of wire so fine I can't see it without my 7x OptiVisor. I've > never bothered to measure but the resistance has to be in the hundreds of ohms > or more. It has to be that high to get over a year's operation from an AA > battery. Duck soup for a PIC output pin driver. > > Funny how this works. I've been thinking about this same type problem for a > few days independent of reading this list. I'm old-fashioned and like analog > clocks much better than digital. I also like the precision of > radio-controlled clocks. I've bought several different WWVB analog clocks, > all of which seem to use the same cheap ChiCom movement. They uniformly suck > (to use a technical term) at receiving WWVB where I live. The digital > versions have no problem receiving but I don't like the looks. > > What I've been thinking about is a modern version of the Simplex master/slave > clock system. A GPS disciplined master clock sending out operating pulses to > slave clocks around my house and shop. > > I thought about wireless, including synthesizing my own WWVB signal but I know > that I'll not get enough round tuits to do that. What I'm working toward is > just about what I described above, except that the master clock will drive 4 > conductor telephone station wire and the slave clocks will contain no > electronics. Only the clockwork and the coils. All the clocks will be wired > in parallel. > > This is an open-loop system that assumes all the clocks are in the same > mechanical position when the master is activated. Perfectly acceptable, given > the relatively few number of clocks and the small area involved. > > This architecture should give me what I want - REALLY simple, no electronics > in the individual clocks, "atomic" accuracy, automatic DST correction and > perfect synchronism. > > Comments? > > John > -- > John De Armond > See my website for my current email address > http://www.neon-john.com > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN > No one can be right all of the time, but it helps to be right most of the time. -Robert Half > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From cfharris at erols.com Thu Sep 4 16:33:28 2008 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:33:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. In-Reply-To: <48C03620.2000909@pacific.net> References: <00b901c8eccd$b95782b0$7300a8c0@p4253> <20080723143304.18A811165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <002301c8ecdc$8ee4aad0$0900a8c0@pc52> <001801c8ed01$1a7c19b0$0900a8c0@pc52> <20080723210020.67E951165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <4887A5BD.3040208@xtra.co.nz> <20080723220139.8796B1165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20080723151808.02d4dcf0@jpl.nasa.gov> <6.2.5.6.2.20080728163240.02dd5ed0@jpl.nasa.gov> <48C03620.2000909@pacific.net> Message-ID: <48C04618.8090307@erols.com> Hi Brooke, The drive for the coils is really not very critical. All you need is a cmos inverter and a couple of capacitors: ~1PPS--[>o---+----[>o-------|(-----+ ~ | | ~ | MOTOR ~ | | ~ +--------------|(-----+ ~ Yes, it is just that easy. -Chuck Harris Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi John: > > All the quartz clocks I've taken apart have a single coil, for example see: > http://www.prc68.com/I/QuartzClk.shtml > > The drive to that coil is bi-polar and is from a single AA cell, so the driver > IC must use an H-bridge. If you want to drive a clock like this at 1 PPS from > a 10 MHz source you will need to use some kind of conversion circuit. That's > why it's easier to generate the 32768 Hz signal and just drive the xtal pins on > the clock's IC. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke From cfharris at erols.com Thu Sep 4 16:40:47 2008 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 16:40:47 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. In-Reply-To: <48C04618.8090307@erols.com> References: <00b901c8eccd$b95782b0$7300a8c0@p4253> <20080723143304.18A811165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <002301c8ecdc$8ee4aad0$0900a8c0@pc52> <001801c8ed01$1a7c19b0$0900a8c0@pc52> <20080723210020.67E951165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <4887A5BD.3040208@xtra.co.nz> <20080723220139.8796B1165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20080723151808.02d4dcf0@jpl.nasa.gov> <6.2.5.6.2.20080728163240.02dd5ed0@jpl.nasa.gov> <48C03620.2000909@pacific.net> <48C04618.8090307@erols.com> Message-ID: <48C047CF.6040402@erols.com> Chuck Harris wrote: > Hi Brooke, > > The drive for the coils is really not very critical. All you need is > a cmos inverter and a couple of capacitors: > > ~1PPS--[>o---+----[>o-------|(-----+ > ~ | | > ~ | MOTOR > ~ | | > ~ +--------------|(-----+ > ~ > > Yes, it is just that easy. Actually, when I spend just another minute thinking about it, it is even easier: ~1PPS-----[>o-----|(------+ ~ | ~ MOTOR ~ | ~ /// -Chuck Harris From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 4 17:00:48 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:00:48 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] While we're discussing backups... In-Reply-To: <3A4AAEA6-260C-4855-BFB1-909EF0B3EE05@rob-vassar.com> References: <3A4AAEA6-260C-4855-BFB1-909EF0B3EE05@rob-vassar.com> Message-ID: <48C04C80.40005@pacific.net> Hi Robert: I tried to comment on this using another computer and think it did not get posted. The only backup that's trustworthy is one that's tested to confirm that it works. For example if you clone your C: drive to a new hard drive then swap hard drives. The removed C: drive becomes the backup and you have a new (and larger C: drive to continue working). A backup that's not used immediately may be completely defective when needed. A friend was using RAID (his concern was hard drive failure, which in my experience is the most common problem) and when the RAID software said something was wrong he was not able to recover using RAID. He paid a disk drive recovery service $4,000 to get his data from the dead drive. Note that cloning a drive copies everything so all your applications, data and registry info gets copied. Any backup that's not a bootable version of your complete system may be missing something needed to be used. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Robert Vassar wrote: > > Just a quick thought. I saw at least one person mention RAID, and > another mention multiple copies of the same data. A true backup copy > is off line. RAID does not protect you from an accidental delete, > virus, etc... Multiple copies only spreads the risk around. > > > I backup to a USB hard disk. I plug it in, backup, unplug it, de- > cable and park it in a filing cabinet. The disk spends 99.99% of > it's life powered off. It should last a decade or more like this, > but I buy a new disk to replace it every 5 years, regardless if it > needs it or not. Really critical stuff goes on a CD-R, stored flat > in a jewel case, and goes in the safe deposit box. > > > Rob > KC6OOM/5 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Sep 4 17:09:30 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:09:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. References: <00b901c8eccd$b95782b0$7300a8c0@p4253> <20080723143304.18A811165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <002301c8ecdc$8ee4aad0$0900a8c0@pc52> <001801c8ed01$1a7c19b0$0900a8c0@pc52> <20080723210020.67E951165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <4887A5BD.3040208@xtra.co.nz> <20080723220139.8796B1165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> <6.2.5.6.2.20080723151808.02d4dcf0@jpl.nasa.gov> <6.2.5.6.2.20080728163240.02dd5ed0@jpl.nasa.gov> <48C03620.2000909@pacific.net> Message-ID: <000f01c90ed2$8697b4e0$0300a8c0@pc52> Brooke, Here's what I did with a PIC (or Basic Stamp, etc.): Current limit the coil to two pins of your microcontroller and configure both as inputs (high Z). Then for about 50 ms each second make the pins output; for even seconds set the pins to 0 and 1; odd seconds 1 and 0. /tvb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brooke Clarke" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] How to get 32.768KHz from 10MHz. > Hi John: > > All the quartz clocks I've taken apart have a single coil, for example see: > http://www.prc68.com/I/QuartzClk.shtml > > The drive to that coil is bi-polar and is from a single AA cell, so the driver > IC must use an H-bridge. If you want to drive a clock like this at 1 PPS from > a 10 MHz source you will need to use some kind of conversion circuit. That's > why it's easier to generate the 32768 Hz signal and just drive the xtal pins on > the clock's IC. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell > http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name > http://www.PRC68.com > http://www.precisionclock.com > http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam > > Neon John wrote: >> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:35:53 -0700, Jim Lux wrote: >> >> >>>> Seems to me that all the solutions proposed so far are a bit complex, trying >>>> to go for the 32khz frequency when that's not necessary. The quartz analog >>>> clockworks has a one or two winding stepper motor. The SIMPLEST solution is >>>> to drive those coils directly with the PIC output and scrap the rest of the >>>> circuitry. >>> Actually, it's not even that complex... it's often an >>> electromagnet/solenoid driving a conventional escapement type clock >>> mechanism. Why use 2 coils when you don't ever need to go backwards? >> >> The clockworks that I've taken apart almost all have 2 coils. One brand has >> one. They all drive a permanent magnet rotor that turns 90 degrees on each >> tick. I'm not sure what the single coil design does to make sure the rotor >> always turns the right direction. Or maybe it doesn't matter if the rotor >> turns a cam and ratchet mechanism. I've never taken one apart far enough to >> know. >> >>> One advantage of generating 32kHz (averaged over 1 second) is that >>> you don't have to build the power driver stage to actuate that >>> electromagnet.. (since it's built into the single dirt-cheap chip in >>> the clock in the first place) >> >> No driver needed. Each coil has about a bazillion (bazillion.000000 for time >> nuts) turns of wire so fine I can't see it without my 7x OptiVisor. I've >> never bothered to measure but the resistance has to be in the hundreds of ohms >> or more. It has to be that high to get over a year's operation from an AA >> battery. Duck soup for a PIC output pin driver. >> >> Funny how this works. I've been thinking about this same type problem for a >> few days independent of reading this list. I'm old-fashioned and like analog >> clocks much better than digital. I also like the precision of >> radio-controlled clocks. I've bought several different WWVB analog clocks, >> all of which seem to use the same cheap ChiCom movement. They uniformly suck >> (to use a technical term) at receiving WWVB where I live. The digital >> versions have no problem receiving but I don't like the looks. >> >> What I've been thinking about is a modern version of the Simplex master/slave >> clock system. A GPS disciplined master clock sending out operating pulses to >> slave clocks around my house and shop. >> >> I thought about wireless, including synthesizing my own WWVB signal but I know >> that I'll not get enough round tuits to do that. What I'm working toward is >> just about what I described above, except that the master clock will drive 4 >> conductor telephone station wire and the slave clocks will contain no >> electronics. Only the clockwork and the coils. All the clocks will be wired >> in parallel. >> >> This is an open-loop system that assumes all the clocks are in the same >> mechanical position when the master is activated. Perfectly acceptable, given >> the relatively few number of clocks and the small area involved. >> >> This architecture should give me what I want - REALLY simple, no electronics >> in the individual clocks, "atomic" accuracy, automatic DST correction and >> perfect synchronism. >> >> Comments? >> >> John >> -- >> John De Armond >> See my website for my current email address >> http://www.neon-john.com >> http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! >> Tellico Plains, Occupied TN >> No one can be right all of the time, but it helps to be right most of the time. -Robert Half >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 4 17:17:29 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:17:29 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: <48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com> References: <48A6C9B5.8040607@quackers.net> <48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com> Message-ID: <48C05069.8000007@pacific.net> Hi Chuck: The Harvard architecture used in the PIC has a number of advantages when compared to the more common Von Neumann architecture, speed being of them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture A not uncommon problem with Von Neumann computers is reading data as an instruction (since they share the same memory space). The HP Rocky Mountain Basic is really an operating system and language all in one. I've been paid to write hundreds of programs in RMB, many of them near the line number limit of the language. It has many features not found in modern languages. That let me to look into metrics for software and I found a couple of Microsoft Books: Writing Solid Code http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1556155514/sr=1-5/qid=1154816669/ref=sr_1_5/104-7728798-0707156?ie=UTF8&s=books Code Complete http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0735619670/sr=1-1/qid=1154816669/ref=sr_1_1/104-7728798-0707156?ie=UTF8&s=books One example of good programming style is that the span of a loop is small. For example you should be able to print the program so that each module fits on a one side of a single sheet of paper. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Chuck Harris wrote: > wje wrote: >> As the one who made the first comment about not liking the PIC, I'll >> give you my reasons. Yes, they are philosophical, even religious. I'm >> also distinguishing between microprocessors (this discussion) and other >> variants, such as DSPs, FPLDs, etc. >> >> First, I've used a very large number of different micros over the years >> for both 'real' work and my own purposes, starting with the Intel 8008 >> before it was commercially released. I've used Intel, TI, Motorola, >> Zilog, MOS Tech processors of multiple families, and yes, even PICs, all >> with wildly varying architectures. These days, given modern development >> tools, the architecture of a general-purpose micro really isn't >> particularly relevant. It's functionality and support tools that are >> important. > > I too have a list of micro's and mini's as rich as yours: PDP8, Univac > 11XX, IBM360, PDP-11, 680XX, 8008, 8080, 8085, 8088, 8086, 80186, 80286, > 80386, ... DSP-32, 1802, Z80, 8051, 6502,..., and many, many PIC's. And > with the exception of the first 5, I have been paid to program them all. > >> Without a doubt, PIC made it possible for many hobbyists to put together >> nice projects that they would not necessarily have been able to do >> otherwise. My deep-seated revulsion comes from one source, and it's not >> the architecture, the company, or the capabilities of the chips. It's >> Basic, the language. Until relatively recently, PIC and Basic were >> almost synonymous, at least for the masses. > > Ah, well, that explains it! Your knowledge of PIC's is incomplete. The > BASIC PIC, known as the STAMP, was a simple program running on a PIC that > showed off somethings that you could do with a PIC. It was not even a > Microchip product. Parallax took a compiler they wrote, and programmed > it on an early PIC, sold millions of them as the STAMP. > > For more information: http://www.parallax.com/tabid/295/Default.aspx > > I have never programmed a PIC in anything other than assembler, or C. > > The PIC architecture is a RISC machine. Its memory is split into DATA > and CODE sections. The entire data section is treated as pages of registers. > All of the I/O is treated as data locations in memory. It is dirt simple, > having less than 40 instructions. > > It is easy to program a PIC in assembler, and using a cross-compiler, it is > reasonably easy for a compiler to generate good PIC code. I have found > that CCS's C compiler generates PIC code that is as good, or better than > a talented human programmer can write. > >> I have both EE and CS degrees, and I work in both worlds. > > For me it is a BSEE and an MSEE. I design hardware and software for > embedded systems. My MS was about 50/50 microwaves and computer architecture. > > In my humble >> (but completely accurate and stable) opinion, Basic is not a programming >> language. It's a tool of Satan designed to convince people that they are >> programmers when they really should stick to their janitorial duties. >> This is a subset of the general problem that everyone thinks they are >> programmers, and usually think their code is perfect. But, that's a rant >> for a different audience. > > Well, if you feel that way about BASIC, then you must really hate assembler. > You can write good, or bad code in any language. BASIC is no exception. > If you treat BASIC as what it was intended to be, it is just fine. It > is a step above a pocket calculator, and should be used as such. In my > opinion, no BASIC program should be written that is longer than 100 lines. > >> So, for me, given that there are some very good C development tools for >> mainstream processors, and frequently they are free, I just don't use >> PICs. As I mentioned earlier, I currently like the Motorola (I mean, >> Freescale; these silly name changes are yet another rant) MC68HCxx line; >> there's a wide choice of features and they can be flashed easily without >> a complicated programmer. The 8-pin xx908QT4 is a buck and does a fine >> job for many purposes, and most importantly, you can get a nice C >> development environment for the line, which was originally from >> CodeWarrior, for free. It also supports the entire line, from 8-bit to >> 32-bit, and with builtin support for all of the various on-chip >> 'peripherals'. > > That's cool, but do any of them make a 6 pin uC that has some 10 bit ADC's > built in? Oh, and can get to better than 1% timing accuracy over the full > industrial temperature range without a crystal? Oh, is it available for > under a buck in small quantities? No? Darn! > >> Even now, I don't think Microchip provides a compiler that supports the >> low-end chips, but I haven't checked lately. > > Not a valid complaint. CCS supports everything that Microchip makes, and > their compiler costs around $100.. and it produces tight efficient code. > Plus, their library has native functions to access every feature of > the PIC. And as an added bonus, the windows version runs nicely under > wine, and there is a linux version available too! > >> But, when you get right down to it, you really need to pick the proper >> solution for your problem. If there was something the PICs provided that >> I couldn't get elsewhere, I'd use them. Religion is fine, but getting >> the job done is more important. > > As I said, show me a 6 pin mini SOIC that has a built in oscillator > that is accurate to better than 1% over the industrial temperature > range (and voltage), has a handful of 10 bit ADC's built in, and can > have a software UART on every pin (but one), and can be easily programmed > in C, and costs under a buck (for full industrial temperature range). > >> BTW, for those that think you can't do anything with an 8-pin 8-bit >> micro, I did one design that supports an LCD, a rotary encoder, a >> Hall-effect sensor, and a button. At home, I use the same chip in every >> light switch in my house to implement a self-tuning capacitance sense >> switch. I even use a couple for a more time-nuts related tasks. One >> provides loop control for my GPS/Rb/Quartz standard, and one is used as >> a 555 timer replacement in my SmartClock->PC interface. (Ok, I was in a >> hurry, needed a pulse stretcher, and I didn't have any 555's lying around) > > I don't use 555's anymore, PICS are available that do the job better, and faster, > and with lower power consumption. And they are more stable frequency wise. > > -Chuck Harris > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com Thu Sep 4 17:30:16 2008 From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:30:16 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In the light of the latest posts on driving clocks from 1pps, it sounds as though I'd better rethink what I was planning! I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz oscillator in GPSDO fashion. The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite different. 73, Murray ZL1BPU From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 4 17:49:21 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 14:49:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C057E1.7020206@pacific.net> Hi Murray: When driving an inductive load the time constant is L/R. This is very different than for a capacitive load where it's C*R. So for inductive loads you want to use as large a series resistance as possible consistent with the voltage of your power supply and the current needed by the load to get the fastest response. Note that a current source circuit can not be substituted for the higher voltage and resistor. I learned this while researching stock tickers, see: http://www.prc68.com/I/WU5A.shtml#Coil When applied to clocks using a higher voltage and resistor results in faster (crisper) and more reliable operation than using the minimum voltage and resistance which sounds sluggish and is not as reliable. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Murray Greenman wrote: > In the light of the latest posts on driving clocks from 1pps, it sounds > as though I'd better rethink what I was planning! > > I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal > to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a > 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz > oscillator in GPSDO fashion. > > The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave > clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be > better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. > > Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty > cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a > clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite > different. > > 73, > Murray ZL1BPU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Sep 4 18:07:03 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:07:03 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Murray Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 2:30 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In the light of the latest posts on driving clocks from 1pps, it sounds as though I'd better rethink what I was planning! I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz oscillator in GPSDO fashion. The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite different. ------------ On the little clock I have here (a MFJ 24 hour clock, as it happens), the pulse going to the single coil is very short (a few ms?). The armature appears to be spring loaded, so the core is normally outside the coil. A pulse comes in, the core flies through, advancing the escapment mechanism. The innards are all under a blob of epoxy, but I'd guess that it's something like a capacitor that gets discharged through the coil. Jim From rvassar at rob-vassar.com Thu Sep 4 18:25:53 2008 From: rvassar at rob-vassar.com (Robert Vassar) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:25:53 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: <48C05069.8000007@pacific.net> References: <48A6C9B5.8040607@quackers.net> <48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com> <48C05069.8000007@pacific.net> Message-ID: <7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> On Sep 4, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > For > example you should be able to print the program so that each module > fits on a > one side of a single sheet of paper. > > That is a highly language dependent metric. I can't see this applying to assembly. I spend a lot of time coding Perl at work, and I shudder to think what would happen if this was part of a coding standard. My colleagues would take this as some kind of challenge... :-) From cfharris at erols.com Thu Sep 4 18:32:26 2008 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 18:32:26 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C061FA.4090704@erols.com> Murray Greenman wrote: > In the light of the latest posts on driving clocks from 1pps, it sounds > as though I'd better rethink what I was planning! > > I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal > to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a > 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz > oscillator in GPSDO fashion. > > The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave > clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be > better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. > > Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty > cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a > clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite > different. Yes, for a simple circuit like that, you need a 50% 1/2pps duty cycle, otherwise the clock will go: tictoc...................tictoc...............tictoc..... The simple ubiquitous quartz clock that runs on a single AA cell has one most important requirement and that is to keep the coil current off except when switching seconds. The motor has a permanent magnet, so it is a latching stepper motor. And the actual waveform used to drive the clock's coil is 1/2 Hz, not 1pps as I showed. If you have 1pps, you will need to use a toggle FF to cut the frequency in 1/2 to 1/2pps with a 50 percent duty cycle. If you want to do something like divide down from 10MHz, most any modern PIC can be used to make a one chip, zero extra part solution, as was described by TVB earlier. -Chuck Harris From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 4 18:49:02 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 15:49:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: <7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> References: <48A6C9B5.8040607@quackers.net> <48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com> <48C05069.8000007@pacific.net> <7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> Message-ID: <48C065DE.4040801@pacific.net> Hi Robert: Yes it applies to assembly. I have 100+ page PIC programs that meet this requirement. You might think about span of control to see how you can do it. Microchip introduced a bug into their assembler some time ago and it is not able to print a PAGE (form feed) assembler directive. But the Form Feed commands are in the listing file, so you can use Word to print the listing file and get page breaks for each module. Having only one module on a page makes it much easier to read the code because you are not seeing unrelated information and you don't have to turn a a page to see it all. The use of indent also goes a long way to clarify code. The Microchip assembler has settings that allow this to happen automatically. In addition they have provision to color code different types of words in the assembly listing and that also makes the meaning clearer. In one of the Microsoft books on programming they go to great lengths to define the data type as part of it's name but the color coding does that in Microchip assembly. Here is the assembler source file for the 16F88 to blink some LEDs. It's a pdf made from the assembly source so has the colors but the page breaks do not show up: http://www.prc68.com/I/pdf/Brooke-16F88_LED.pdf Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Robert Vassar wrote: > On Sep 4, 2008, at 4:17 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote: > >> For >> example you should be able to print the program so that each module >> fits on a >> one side of a single sheet of paper. >> >> > > > That is a highly language dependent metric. I can't see this > applying to assembly. I spend a lot of time coding Perl at work, and > I shudder to think what would happen if this was part of a coding > standard. My colleagues would take this as some kind of > challenge... :-) > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From namichie at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 19:32:47 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:32:47 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, The motors in quartz clocks and watches (mainly) are driven by alternating pulses about 20ms long at about 1.4 volts. As has been mentioned this can be done with CMOS, connecting the coil to two outputs and pulsing the outputs alternately. However some of the movements are sensitive to being over-driven and will not step properly if the voltage is too high even if the pulse is shorter. This is because of the delicate setup made to be assymmetrical so it always moves forward. The rotor has to move forward a little to absorb the energy to complete the step. These movements stick to the pole for the stronger shorter pulse or may even step backwards. One very good alternative that drives all movements that I have tried is to make a 0.5 Hertz squarewave of say 5 volts, and connect it to the coil via a capacitor and a series resistor. There always seems to be a best capacitor value and best resistor value to make any movement step most reliably. The capacitor controls the current delivered and the resistor the time it is delivered over. The capacitors are in the order of 50 mfd the resistors 200 ohms but may vary back or forward by an order of magnitude. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/09/2008, at 7:30 AM, Murray Greenman wrote: > In the light of the latest posts on driving clocks from 1pps, it > sounds > as though I'd better rethink what I was planning! > > I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal > to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS > using a > 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz > oscillator in GPSDO fashion. > > The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave > clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I > would be > better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. > > Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty > cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a > clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite > different. > > 73, > Murray ZL1BPU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Sep 4 19:36:38 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:36:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps References: Message-ID: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> > I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal > to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a > 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz > oscillator in GPSDO fashion. > > The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave > clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be > better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. > > Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty > cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a > clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite > different. > > 73, > Murray ZL1BPU 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In the 'scope traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms biphase pulses every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/32kHz/ /tvb From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com Thu Sep 4 19:57:59 2008 From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:57:59 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from a micro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My present plan is to generate from a 5V micro two 0.5Hz outputs, 50ms width (as TVB has shown), and to drive the coil via a resistor in each output. The resistors serve a further function of protecting the micro outputs from ESD to some extent. Murray ZL1BPU From didier at cox.net Thu Sep 4 19:56:59 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 18:56:59 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> References: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 6:37 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps > > > I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a > 10MHz crystal > > to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line > via GPS using > > a 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than > altering the 10MHz > > oscillator in GPSDO fashion. > > > > The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to > drive slave > > clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and > Chuck, I would > > be better off just providing a single output, and use a > series cacacitor. > > > > Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty > > cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can > imagine a > > clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite > > different. > > > > 73, > > Murray ZL1BPU > > 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In the > 'scope traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms > biphase pulses every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/32kHz/ > > /tvb > With the right size capacitor, you can get just the right amount of energy, equivalent to the pulse you show on the scope. The motor may need slightly more or less energy to account for the different waveshape, but you should not end up very far. Didier From holrum at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 22:11:45 2008 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 02:11:45 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow... printing a listing... how quaint. I haven't done that since well into the last millenium (egad, probably 20+ years ago). And I'm an old fogey that lives in the Land of the Obsolete. Come to think of it, I actually punched a program out on paper tape (well, OK, mylar tape) long after I printed my last listing... Well, OK, it was actually an Excellon drill tape I punched out a few months ago. --------------------------------- Microchip introduced a bug into their assembler some time ago and it is not able to print a PAGE (form feed) assembler directive. But the Form Feed commands are in the listing file, so you can use Word to print the listing file and get page breaks for each module. _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com Thu Sep 4 23:03:10 2008 From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:03:10 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine fettle. Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find a replacement board from another junked generator. So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something else? 73, Murray ZL1BPU From cfharris at erols.com Thu Sep 4 23:05:53 2008 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:05:53 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> References: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: <48C0A211.8020001@erols.com> Tom Van Baak wrote: >> I am in the middle of the design of a micro which uses a 10MHz crystal >> to provide a digital clock, but the time is kept in line via GPS using a >> 1pps NCO, which is steered digitally, rather than altering the 10MHz >> oscillator in GPSDO fashion. >> >> The plan was to provide two outputs (biphase) at 1pps to drive slave >> clocks, but in the light of the notes from Brooke and Chuck, I would be >> better off just providing a single output, and use a series cacacitor. >> >> Chuck, I would expect that the 1pps would need to be about 50% duty >> cycle, or at least have a pulse width of 100ms or so. I can imagine a >> clock driven from 1pps with a low duty cycle would sound quite >> different. >> >> 73, >> Murray ZL1BPU > > 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In the > 'scope traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms > biphase pulses every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. No Tom, you misunderstand. The 50% duty cycle pulse provides the rising and falling edges. The small capacitor differentiates that to produce a positive going, or a negative going pulse to make the motor move. -Chuck Harris From glennmaillist at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 4 23:47:01 2008 From: glennmaillist at bellsouth.net (Glenn Little WB4UIV) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 23:47:01 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080904234414.04b8eb70@mail.bellsouth.net> What is the part number of the chip that you need? Do you have a way to remove the bad chip? I have a parts board that I could remove the chip that you need from and ship it to you. I cannot guarantee that the chip that I have is good. If there are two on the board, I could remove both and send then to you. 73 Glenn WB4UIV At 11:03 PM 9/4/2008, you wrote: >I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined >that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on >the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine >fettle. > >Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL >chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find >a replacement board from another junked generator. > >So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, >or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something >else? > >73, >Murray ZL1BPU > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Sep 5 00:16:43 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 21:16:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps References: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> <48C0A211.8020001@erols.com> Message-ID: <000801c90f0e$39214410$0500a8c0@pc52> >> 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In the >> 'scope traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms >> biphase pulses every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. > > No Tom, you misunderstand. The 50% duty cycle pulse provides the > rising and falling edges. The small capacitor differentiates > that to produce a positive going, or a negative going pulse to > make the motor move. > > -Chuck Harris Ah, I see now. It's a 0.5 Hz square wave. Cool. Yes, that looks like it might work. Has someone tried this on a quartz clock stepper motor to make sure you reliably get sufficient impulse? I wonder why no commercial clocks use this trick. /tvb From richard at karlquist.com Fri Sep 5 00:23:19 2008 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:23:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C0B437.3080905@karlquist.com> Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. Rick Karlquist N6RK (employed by Agilent Technologies) Murray Greenman wrote: > I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined > that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on > the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine > fettle. > > Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL > chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find > a replacement board from another junked generator. > > So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, > or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something > else? > > 73, > Murray ZL1BPU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From didier at cox.net Fri Sep 5 00:24:12 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:24:12 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: <000801c90f0e$39214410$0500a8c0@pc52> References: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52> <48C0A211.8020001@erols.com> <000801c90f0e$39214410$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: <5350A8FB128C40BB941DDFF3F5B803C3@didierhp> > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:17 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps > > >> 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In > the 'scope > >> traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms > biphase pulses > >> every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. > > > > No Tom, you misunderstand. The 50% duty cycle pulse provides the > > rising and falling edges. The small capacitor > differentiates that to > > produce a positive going, or a negative going pulse to make > the motor > > move. > > > > -Chuck Harris > > Ah, I see now. It's a 0.5 Hz square wave. Cool. Yes, that > looks like it might work. Has someone tried this on a quartz > clock stepper motor to make sure you reliably get sufficient impulse? > I wonder why no commercial clocks use this trick. > > /tvb > > The capacitor gets too large for a commercial watch or clock, silicon is cheaper. Didier KO4BB From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Fri Sep 5 02:00:13 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 07:00:13 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: <7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> References: <48A6C9B5.8040607@quackers.net><48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com> <48C05069.8000007@pacific.net> <7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> Message-ID: <4EB5E9C5D77C43EC831D586983D0BA34@APOLLO> Not quite as horrid as the guys who felt I necessary to write APL "one-liners". This elevated obscurity to a whole new art form. D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Vassar Sent: 04 September 2008 23:26 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller That is a highly language dependent metric. I can't see this applying to assembly. I spend a lot of time coding Perl at work, and I shudder to think what would happen if this was part of a coding standard. My colleagues would take this as some kind of challenge... :-) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From wbeam at gci.net Fri Sep 5 02:38:55 2008 From: wbeam at gci.net (Bill Beam) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 22:38:55 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: <000801c90f0e$39214410$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: <0K6P0032XMGWWBB0@msgmmp-1.gci.net> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:16:43 -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote: >>> 50% duty cycle is way overkill, perhaps even harmful. In the >>> 'scope traces below you can see the IC generates just 50 ms >>> biphase pulses every second. That's 1/20, or 5% duty cycle. >> >> No Tom, you misunderstand. The 50% duty cycle pulse provides the >> rising and falling edges. The small capacitor differentiates >> that to produce a positive going, or a negative going pulse to >> make the motor move. >> >> -Chuck Harris > >Ah, I see now. It's a 0.5 Hz square wave. Cool. Yes, that looks >like it might work. Has someone tried this on a quartz clock >stepper motor to make sure you reliably get sufficient impulse? >I wonder why no commercial clocks use this trick. > >/tvb > It works perfectly and reliably. I drive three wall clocks from the 0.5Hz heartbeat of a Brooks Shera controller with 50-100microF in series to each clock. You need a way to reverse polarity to get onto even or odd second. Five $ wall clocks keeping GPS accurate time. > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. Bill Beam NL7F From didier at cox.net Fri Sep 5 07:55:18 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:55:18 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: <4EB5E9C5D77C43EC831D586983D0BA34@APOLLO> References: <48A6C9B5.8040607@quackers.net><48B0B12C.9020702@erols.com><48C05069.8000007@pacific.net><7C5F0132-0102-4B8B-8460-1797F75E0082@rob-vassar.com> <4EB5E9C5D77C43EC831D586983D0BA34@APOLLO> Message-ID: <56221E507AEA44869A9AB178C8EF8330@didierhp> Google "Obfuscated code contest" for fun :-) > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 1:00 AM > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller > > Not quite as horrid as the guys who felt I necessary to > write APL "one-liners". This elevated obscurity to a whole > new art form. > > D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Vassar > Sent: 04 September 2008 23:26 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller > > That is a highly language dependent metric. I can't see this > applying to assembly. I spend a lot of time coding Perl at > work, and I shudder to think what would happen if this was > part of a coding standard. My colleagues would take this as > some kind of challenge... :-) > > > > From didier at cox.net Fri Sep 5 08:16:17 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 07:16:17 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: <5350A8FB128C40BB941DDFF3F5B803C3@didierhp> References: <002101c90ee7$18ac0250$0500a8c0@pc52><48C0A211.8020001@erols.com> <000801c90f0e$39214410$0500a8c0@pc52> <5350A8FB128C40BB941DDFF3F5B803C3@didierhp> Message-ID: <011801c90f51$33a5a0b0$0a00a8c0@d400> -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier Juges Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 11:24 PM To: 'Tom Van Baak'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps > > Ah, I see now. It's a 0.5 Hz square wave. Cool. Yes, that looks like > it might work. Has someone tried this on a quartz clock stepper motor > to make sure you reliably get sufficient impulse? > I wonder why no commercial clocks use this trick. > > /tvb > > The capacitor gets too large for a commercial watch or clock, silicon is cheaper. Didier KO4BB Besides, the power consumption is probably lower with a well defined pulse than with the capacitor, and it's easier to keep a tight tolerance on a pulse width than on the value of a large electrolytic capacitor. Didier From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 09:26:50 2008 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 13:26:50 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Somewhere out there is a complete Fortran compiler written in APL that fits on a single 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper... Beware, programmers have turned to screaming, blithering idiots with bits of their brains oozing out all of their orifices just by glancing at that page. ---------------------------------------- Not quite as horrid as the guys who felt I necessary to write APL "one-liners". This elevated obscurity to a whole new art form. D. _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Sep 5 09:43:47 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:43:47 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: Message-ID: APL.. Maybe they're talking about things like the famous 6000 lines of ECAP in FORTRAN IV done in APL in 600 lines by a grad student, etc. (not surprising.. ECAP is lots of matrix math, which is VERY dense in APL.. Mind you, today Matlab would do almost the same) See http://www.sigapl.org/whyapl.htm (scary thing is, I've actually used APL on both the STSC timesharing systems and the IBM 5100) The following statement appears there: Several people have written BASIC compilers in APL. I also like this one, in the FAQ-like section at the end: DP managers will lose control if 'everybody' does his or her own thing by having individual access to computers On 9/5/08 6:26 AM, "Mark Sims" wrote: Somewhere out there is a complete Fortran compiler written in APL that fits on a single 8.5x11 inch sheet of paper... Beware, programmers have turned to screaming, blithering idiots with bits of their brains oozing out all of their orifices just by glancing at that page. ---------------------------------------- Not quite as horrid as the guys who felt I necessary to write APL "one-liners". This elevated obscurity to a whole new art form. D. _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together-at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From steveheidmann at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 12:29:01 2008 From: steveheidmann at yahoo.com (steve heidmann) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:29:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <48C0B437.3080905@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <194172.75692.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Rick, ? Is he available to help hot rod one with a SiGe oscillator transistor ? ? ????????????????????????? Steve --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 9:23 PM Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. Rick Karlquist N6RK (employed by Agilent Technologies) Murray Greenman wrote: > I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined > that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on > the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine > fettle. > > Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL > chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find > a replacement board from another junked generator. > > So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, > or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something > else? > > 73, > Murray ZL1BPU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From gbusg at comcast.net Fri Sep 5 13:28:30 2008 From: gbusg at comcast.net (Greg Burnett) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 11:28:30 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator References: Message-ID: <001101c90f7c$d0c4a780$6501a8c0@gb02> ...Just a thought... Those long slide switches (plastic sliders with gold leafs that make contact with pads on the divider board) can cause your symptom also. In some cases a metal leaf contact breaks. In other cases the slider grease turns "gummy", preventing good contact. For the latter case, you can fix the problem by cleaning-off all the old grease and then replacing it with fresh Lubriplate grease. 73, Greg ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murray Greenman" To: Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 9:03 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine fettle. Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find a replacement board from another junked generator. So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something else? 73, Murray ZL1BPU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From richard at karlquist.com Fri Sep 5 13:54:40 2008 From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <194172.75692.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <194172.75692.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <11075.192.25.142.225.1220637280.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> I'm unclear what you are trying to do. Rick steve heidmann wrote: > Hi Rick, > ? > Is he available to help hot rod one with a SiGe oscillator transistor ? > ? > ????????????????????????? Steve > > --- On Thu, 9/4/08, Richard (Rick) Karlquist > wrote: > > From: Richard (Rick) Karlquist > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Date: Thursday, September 4, 2008, 9:23 PM > > Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago > has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered > very advanced at the time. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > (employed by Agilent Technologies) > > Murray Greenman wrote: >> I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined >> that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on >> the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine >> fettle. >> >> Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL >> chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to > find >> a replacement board from another junked generator. >> >> So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, >> or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something >> else? >> >> 73, >> Murray ZL1BPU >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From cdelect at juno.com Fri Sep 5 18:01:05 2008 From: cdelect at juno.com (corby d dawson) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:01:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Short term stabilites of some HP 5065A Message-ID: <20080905.150106.-571543.7.cdelect@juno.com> There have been indications in the literature going back over 20 years that some HP 5065A have VERY good short term stabilities, exceeding the specifications by a large margin. One of my aquaintances has tested all the newest rubidiums, including the ones claiming superior short term stabilities. His application needs superior short term stabilities between 1 and 100 seconds. Selected 5065A units are the only ones that he has found that satisfy his need! So as well as evaluating the short term stabilities of a bunch of quartz oscillators I have also tested a bunch of HP 5065A rubidium standards. Here is the data showing the short term stabilites from 1 to 1K seconds of thirteen different 5065A units. Rb9, Rb2, Rb12, TVB1, and TVB2 values were from data measured elsewhere. For comparison the specifications for the 5065A are included on the top line. As you can see they all handily beat the specs. (Rb9 at 1 sec is a tiny bit high but not remarkably so.) 5065A 1 SEC. 10 SEC. 100 SEC. 1K SEC. ------------------------------------------------ Spec. <5.0-12 <1.6-12 <5.0-13 <5.0-13 940- 3.51-12 1.02-12 2.43-13 1.00-13 2432A 1.40-12 6.06-13 3.31-13 3.28-14 2340A 1.66-12 7.09-13 2.93-13 6.54-14 2640A 1.16-12 4.06-13 1.23-13 2.10-14 2816A1 1.04-12 3.89-13 2.40-13 3.37-14 TESTER 1.15-12 7.40-13 3.66-13 7.54-14 RB09 5.50-12 1.00-12 3.00-13 3.00-13 RB02 9.00-13 3.00-13 1.00-13 6.00-14 RB12 2.00-12 4.00-13 1.10-13 5.10-14 TVB2 1.17-12 4.80-13 1.50-13 7.80-14 TVB1 1.13-12 3.32-13 1.13-13 5.10-14 2816A2 2.62-12 1.09-12 4.12-13 1.10-13 2816A3 1.38-12 5.93-13 2.51-13 7.81-14 FTS 1200#2 2.99-13 4.30-13 7.69-13 8.65-13 One of my current projects is to install an FTS1200 oscillator , data on bottom line, into the 5065A prefix 2340A unit. With some tweaking of the time constants I hope to get the 1200 stability to a little past 10 seconds and then pick up the rubidiums stability for the longer taus. This would give me a local standard with <5X10-13th stability from 1 sec to >1000 seconds! Here are the preliminary results using a bigger integration capacitor. I hope to reduce the "bump" at 10 seconds to less than 5.0X10-13th. I'm going to try a different method. HERE ARE THE RESULTS OF THE FTS 1200 INSTALLED IN THE 5065A X Allan Deviation 1 5.03431003598505E-13 2 5.91219014265936E-13 4 7.32924010274353E-13 8 8.36306500506541E-13 16 8.03386131043816E-13 32 7.17246367578202E-13 64 5.62909296753953E-13 128 3.98222917349906E-13 256 3.01424909230413E-13 512 1.94531160606847E-13 1024 1.54934821774033E-13 2048 1.99151147040887E-13 4096 8.01483740850486E-14 X Allan Deviation 1 5.03431003598505E-13 10 8.34471571168723E-13 100 4.60185955919969E-13 1000 1.49306028392312E-13 Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Fashion Design Education - Click Here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oIax5f8h9MvHfxrTQYRSj8aPzf5Ujlxx4LtPVa6facCPQoJ/ From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Sep 5 18:08:30 2008 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:08:30 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator Message-ID: In a message dated 05/09/2008 05:23:56 GMT Daylight Time, richard at karlquist.com writes: Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. -------------- The cubicle? From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Sep 5 18:22:17 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:22:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In a message dated 05/09/2008 05:23:56 GMT Daylight Time, richard at karlquist.com writes: Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. -------------- The cubicle? ----- Think of it as many nested boxes, within the building there is a room, within the room there is a cubicle, within the cubicle there is a piece of test equipment, within the test equipment there is a oven enclosure, within the oven enclosure there is a box, within the box there is an oscillator, within the oscillator there is a crystal housing, within the crystal housing there is a chunk o' rock, upon which everything rests... From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Sep 5 18:36:47 2008 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 18:36:47 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator Message-ID: In a message dated 05/09/2008 23:23:37 GMT Daylight Time, james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov writes: Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. -------------- The cubicle? ----- Think of it as many nested boxes, within the building there is a room, within the room there is a cubicle, within the cubicle there is a piece of test equipment, within the test equipment there is a oven enclosure, within the oven enclosure there is a box, within the box there is an oscillator, within the oscillator there is a crystal housing, within the crystal housing there is a chunk o' rock, upon which everything rests... ----------- OK I get it.... The cubicle was advanced for it's time because it was sitting on a chunk of rock. I like that, it's really good.... especially when one considers how the Dilbert principle has demonstrated the very great difficulty involved in finding a stable cubicle. From wb6bnq at cox.net Fri Sep 5 18:38:40 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:38:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator References: Message-ID: <48C1B4F0.3DA3F5EB@cox.net> James, That is one hell of a convoluted explanation. On the other hand I cannot believe in today's world people would not know what a cubicle is. A cubicle is what most people would call an office. The difference is most offices have normal full size walls and a door. The cubicle has no doors and the walls are usually short. If you have a building with a very large open space and you divide the space with 6 foot high wall dividers interlocked to form a series of boxes with individual openings, that is a what a cubicle is. Of course, there are isles (walk ways) inbetween groups of these cubicles for access. Bill....WB6BNQ "Lux, James P" wrote: > In a message dated 05/09/2008 05:23:56 GMT Daylight Time, richard at karlquist.com writes: > > Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very advanced at the time. > > -------------- > The cubicle? > > ----- > > Think of it as many nested boxes, within the building there is a room, within the room there is a cubicle, within the cubicle there is a piece of test equipment, within the test equipment there is a oven enclosure, within the oven enclosure there is a box, within the box there is an oscillator, within the oscillator there is a crystal housing, within the crystal housing there is a chunk o' rock, upon which everything rests... > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jmiles at pop.net Fri Sep 5 19:44:26 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:44:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <48C1B4F0.3DA3F5EB@cox.net> Message-ID: Is this a double-oven cubicle, or the less-stable single-oven model with the bang-bang controller (i.e., the boss holding a gun to your head)? Seriously, that's great that not all of the old guard has retired. The 8640 came along in the early 70s, so I'd bet that guy has seen a lot. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of WB6BNQ > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 3:39 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator > > > James, > > That is one hell of a convoluted explanation. On the other hand > I cannot believe in today's world people would not know what a cubicle is. > > A cubicle is what most people would call an office. The > difference is most offices have normal full size walls and a > door. The cubicle has no doors and the walls are usually short. > > If you have a building with a very large open space and you > divide the space with 6 foot high wall dividers interlocked to > form a series of boxes with individual openings, that is a what a > cubicle is. Of course, there are isles (walk ways) inbetween > groups of these cubicles for access. > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > "Lux, James P" wrote: > > > In a message dated 05/09/2008 05:23:56 GMT Daylight Time, > richard at karlquist.com writes: > > > > Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years > ago has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was > considered very advanced at the time. > > > > -------------- > > The cubicle? > > > > ----- From jmiles at pop.net Fri Sep 5 19:49:12 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 16:49:12 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <194172.75692.qm@web36802.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What do you have in mind? I have an 8640 cavity that was removed from service with a noisy transistor. What limits the noise floor on these units -- the cavity or the transistor? The dividers bottom out at around -150 dBc/Hz, so there's no point improving the cavity oscillator much beyond that unless you want to re-engineer the whole divider chain, or you only care about the 256-512 MHz range. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of steve heidmann > Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 9:29 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator > > > Hi Rick, > ? > Is he available to help hot rod one with a SiGe oscillator transistor ? > ? > ????????????????????????? Steve > From jltran at worldnet.att.net Fri Sep 5 20:16:10 2008 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 19:16:10 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did an e..y search for '8640B' and there were parts units as well as bags of parts and various boards. You might check there. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Murray Greenman Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 10:03 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine fettle. Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to find a replacement board from another junked generator. So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something else? 73, Murray ZL1BPU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From ka2cdk at cox.net Fri Sep 5 23:38:38 2008 From: ka2cdk at cox.net (Thomas A. Frank) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 23:38:38 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46145F88-91F7-4B5B-BD1F-4042B2150ED0@cox.net> > Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago > has the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered > very advanced at the time. > -------------- > The cubicle? > ----- > Think of it as many nested boxes, within the building there is a > room, within the room there is a cubicle, within the cubicle there > is a piece of test equipment, within the test equipment there is a > oven enclosure, within the oven enclosure there is a box, within > the box there is an oscillator, within the oscillator there is a > crystal housing, within the crystal housing there is a chunk o' > rock, upon which everything rests... Collapsing down toward infinity. Fractal engineering at its finest. Perhaps my experience in engineering for the gov't differs a bit from that found at such a high end company, but I would have expected that at that level of seniority, those folks usually rate an office with a door...or is that sort of thing reserved solely for management? Tom Frank, KA2CDK From biwa at att.net Sat Sep 6 01:09:16 2008 From: biwa at att.net (Burt I. Weiner) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:09:16 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 8640B parts on eBay... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20080905220733.036e2118@att.net> Murray, I don't know if this would have a good "what you want" but it may be worth a go, especially since the "pile" comes with an extender board. http://cgi.ebay.com/LARGE-LOT-OF-HP-8640B-PARTS-L-K_W0QQitemZ200251511135QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item200251511135&_trkparms=72%3A1163%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 Burt, K6OQK At 04:45 PM 9/5/2008, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote >Murray Greenman wrote: > > I've obtained a faulty HP 8640B signal generator, and have determined > > that the fault is in one of the dividers. (The unit has output only on > > the top two ranges). Other than that, the generator seems to be in fine > > fettle. > > > > Since the chance of finding a replacement gold-plated HP-numbered ECL > > chip is less than improbable, I'm left with the option of trying to >find > > a replacement board from another junked generator. > > > > So, does anyone by any chance have a spare divider board from an 8640B, > > or a suggestion of how to replace the 64-128MHz divider with something > > else? > > > > 73, > > Murray ZL1BPU Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. biwa at att.net K6OQK From daun at yeagley.net Sat Sep 6 01:50:28 2008 From: daun at yeagley.net (Daun Yeagley) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:50:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <46145F88-91F7-4B5B-BD1F-4042B2150ED0@cox.net> References: <46145F88-91F7-4B5B-BD1F-4042B2150ED0@cox.net> Message-ID: <020c01c90fe4$77e50e30$2200a8c0@daundell> Actually, amazing that it might seem, even high level managers (like a division manager) at Agilent only have cubicles. (usually they are a bit larger and fancier than the "regulars", but finding a real office is extremely rare. Daun -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Thomas A. Frank Sent: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:39 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator > Trivia: The engineer who designed that chip for HP 35 years ago has > the cubicle next to me at Agilent Labs! It was considered very > advanced at the time. > -------------- > The cubicle? > ----- > Think of it as many nested boxes, within the building there is a room, > within the room there is a cubicle, within the cubicle there is a > piece of test equipment, within the test equipment there is a oven > enclosure, within the oven enclosure there is a box, within the box > there is an oscillator, within the oscillator there is a crystal > housing, within the crystal housing there is a chunk o' > rock, upon which everything rests... Collapsing down toward infinity. Fractal engineering at its finest. Perhaps my experience in engineering for the gov't differs a bit from that found at such a high end company, but I would have expected that at that level of seniority, those folks usually rate an office with a door...or is that sort of thing reserved solely for management? Tom Frank, KA2CDK _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sat Sep 6 06:09:02 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:09:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] AVR PPSDIV Message-ID: <0579DC9A3E4D4EC6B1DDE2F229CD91B2@athlon> Gentlemen, you all know Tom Van Baak's PPSDIV project in that a PIC microcontroller acts as an sychronous frequency divider and generates a bunch of output frequencies from a single 10 MHz input with an 1 PPS among it. I have translated this project into the AVR world of microcontrollers and at http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html you can download an AVR Studio project that will enable an AVR controller to perform the same. Much to the smaller cycle time of the AVR's the 100 kHz output is almost perfect in terms of duty cycle. The code should run on any AVR that features an complete port A since that one is osed for the output. My PLOTTER utility has been updated and now features an ALL-TAU option for stability computations. My EZGPIB utility has some errors less than before... Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From bob.paddock at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 07:09:33 2008 From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 07:09:33 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The cubicle? Anti-Productivity Pods: Cubicles as Dilbert so astutely noted. "For my money the most important work on software productivity in the last 20 years is DeMarco and Lister's Peopleware (1987 Dorset House Publishing, NY NY). For a decade the authors conducted coding wars at a number of different companies, pitting teams against each other on a standard set of software problems. The results showed that, using any measure of performance (speed, defects, etc.) the average of those in the 1st quartile outperformed the average in the 4th quartile by a factor of 2.6. Surprisingly, none of the factors you'd expect to matter correlated to the best and worst performers. Even experience mattered little, as long as the programmers had been working for at least 6 months. They did find a very strong correlation between the office environment and team performance. Needless interruptions yielded poor performance. The best teams had private (read "quiet") offices and phones with "off" switches. Their study suggests that quiet time saves vast amounts of money. Think about this. The almost minor tweak of getting some quiet time can, according to their data, multiply your productivity by 260%! That's an astonishing result. For the same salary your boss pays you now, he'd get essentially 2.6 of you." -- Jack Ganssle in The Embedded Muse #25. You can find related comments at http://www.softwaresafety.net . From richard at karlquist.com Sat Sep 6 11:50:56 2008 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 08:50:56 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <020c01c90fe4$77e50e30$2200a8c0@daundell> References: <46145F88-91F7-4B5B-BD1F-4042B2150ED0@cox.net> <020c01c90fe4$77e50e30$2200a8c0@daundell> Message-ID: <48C2A6E0.7020307@karlquist.com> Going back to Agilent's origins at HP, AFAIK, only Hewlett and Packard ever had traditional "offices" with walls to the ceiling and doors. Their offices are preserved in the condition they were in when H & P left the company. Employees can visit these offices, which are like a museum. In practice, what executives do to is have a conference room reserved at all times as a virtual office and use that as an office if they want to have a private meeting. If you are familiar with Star Trek's Captain Picard, these work like his "ready room". I spend most of my time in my lab, which is in an RF shielded room, so it's almost like I have an office :-) Rick Karlquist N6RK HP 1979-1999 Daun Yeagley wrote: > Actually, amazing that it might seem, even high level managers (like a > division manager) at Agilent only have cubicles. (usually they are a bit > larger and fancier than the "regulars", but finding a real office is > extremely rare. > > Daun > From wje at quackers.net Sat Sep 6 12:53:54 2008 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:53:54 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5371A problem Message-ID: <48C2B5A2.9020708@quackers.net> I have a problem with my HP 5371A. Fairly often, when I display samples in one of the graph modes, the graph is displayed properly, but then a number of horizontal lines show up composed of semi-regularly-spaced dots. Typically the rows will be spaced about 1/5 of the vertical size apart. Whether or not they show up, and how many show up, seem to depend upon the amplitude if the displayed graph. One strange thing is that they show up almost as if they were being explicitly drawn - first, the graph is rendered, then the axes, and then the rows of dots. It passes all memory tests, CRT, controller, and data. I have a suspicion as to the cause, but if anyone has any ideas, please let me know. -- Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. From Charlie.Myers at ps.net Sat Sep 6 13:14:36 2008 From: Charlie.Myers at ps.net (Myers, Charlie) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:14:36 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List Message-ID: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> Hi, I am new to the time nuts mailing list and I have one question. How do I search the mail list archives for a specific topic or keyword? It appears that I have to search each month's archive, which is terribly time consuming. I want to search the entire archive at one time. Is there a way to do this? Thanks, Charlie Myers From jdb at lartmaker.nl Sat Sep 6 13:30:30 2008 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 19:30:30 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List In-Reply-To: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> References: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> Message-ID: >I am new to the time nuts mailing list and I have one question. How do >I search the mail list archives for a specific topic or keyword? As far as I am aware there is no direct way to search the entire archive. A workable workaround is to google for "site:www.febo.com time-nuts YourKeyword" (without the quotes). JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From gcarlistaa at garychatters.com Sat Sep 6 13:40:39 2008 From: gcarlistaa at garychatters.com (Gary Chatters) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:40:39 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List In-Reply-To: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> References: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> Message-ID: <48C2C097.4090202@garychatters.com> What have you tried so far? Using Google, as already mentioned, is one option. You can download the monthly archives, then use grep or whatever you like to search. You may want to search the current month separately. Gary Myers, Charlie wrote: > Hi, > > I am new to the time nuts mailing list and I have one question. How do > I search the mail list archives for a specific topic or keyword? It > appears that I have to search each month's archive, which is terribly > time consuming. I want to search the entire archive at one time. Is > there a way to do this? From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 14:23:16 2008 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 11:23:16 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List In-Reply-To: References: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> Message-ID: <91981b3e0809061123x8944ce4mdad2559ce60612a2@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:30 AM, J.D. Bakker wrote: >>I am new to the time nuts mailing list and I have one question. How do >>I search the mail list archives for a specific topic or keyword? > > As far as I am aware there is no direct way to search the entire > archive. A workable workaround is to google for "site:www.febo.com > time-nuts YourKeyword" (without the quotes). site:febo.com inurl:pipermail/time-nuts YourKeyword -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? From brice at weaponeer.com Sat Sep 6 14:24:16 2008 From: brice at weaponeer.com (brice at weaponeer.com) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:24:16 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 50, Issue 10 Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-request at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-request at febo.com] Sent: Saturday, September 6, 2008 11:00 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 50, Issue 10 Re:8640B signal generator Try hangar18surplus (Phillip Galloway) on ebay. Also texas999 (Chester Bruington) They are both good sources for HP/TEK etc .parts. Cheers, Bill From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Sep 6 14:56:03 2008 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 18:56:03 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] 5371A problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical retrace on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be regularly aligned (either vertically or most likely skewed). If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, you would see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. You might only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video signal exceeded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph exceeds a certain size). Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" values enabled and see if the problem appears there. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From wje at quackers.net Sat Sep 6 15:43:06 2008 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:43:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5371A problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C2DD4A.2050705@quackers.net> The dot are aligned horizontally, only a single scan line per set of dots. However, this only shows up in graph mode, not in any other display. The dots are actually in memory. If I plot the graph, they show up in the plot also. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Mark Sims wrote: > It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical retrace on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be regularly aligned (either vertically or most likely skewed). > > If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, you would see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. You might only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video signal exceeded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph exceeds a certain size). > > Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" values enabled and see if the problem appears there. > > ---------------------------------------- > > _________________________________________________________________ > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Sep 6 16:41:24 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:41:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5371A problem References: <48C2DD4A.2050705@quackers.net> Message-ID: <48C2EAF4.C6630C21@cox.net> Bill, Are you sure that they are not suppose to be there ? In otherwords like a minor axis/division indicator ? Just a thought. Bill....WB6BNQ wje wrote: > The dot are aligned horizontally, only a single scan line per set of > dots. However, this only shows up in graph mode, not in any other > display. The dots are actually in memory. If I plot the graph, they show > up in the plot also. > > Bill Ezell > ---------- > They said 'Windows or better' > so I used Linux. > > Mark Sims wrote: > > It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical retrace on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be regularly aligned (either vertically or most likely skewed). > > > > If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, you would see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. You might only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video signal exceeded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph exceeds a certain size). > > > > Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" values enabled and see if the problem appears there. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. > > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From wje at quackers.net Sat Sep 6 18:20:48 2008 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:20:48 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5371A problem In-Reply-To: <48C2EAF4.C6630C21@cox.net> References: <48C2DD4A.2050705@quackers.net> <48C2EAF4.C6630C21@cox.net> Message-ID: <48C30240.3000208@quackers.net> I don't think so. Not only is this not documented in the manual, the lines aren't complete. There tend to be missing pixels; sometimes there are only a few pixels in a line. But, the lines are always horizontal, and typically occur every 1/4 to 1/6 or so of the vertical span, but don't seem to have any correlation with the actual vertical scale divisions. I'm wondering if the rams are suffering from pattern sensitivity failures. This used to be a reasonably common problem where writing to one address would also write to bits in other RAM rows (or columns, depending upon the ram design). Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. WB6BNQ wrote: Bill, Are you sure that they are not suppose to be there ? In otherwords like a mino r axis/division indicator ? Just a thought. Bill....WB6BNQ wje wrote: The dot are aligned horizontally, only a single scan line per set of dots. However, this only shows up in graph mode, not in any other display. The dots are actually in memory. If I plot the graph, they show up in the plot also. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Mark Sims wrote: It may be related to video not being blanked properly during the vertical retrac e on the CRT... particularly if the dots on each row seem to be regularly aligne d (either vertically or most likely skewed). If the vertical retrace signal lasts for five horizontal scan line times, you w ould see five lines of pseudo video garbage during the vertical retrace. You mi ght only see the video garbage if the average amplitude of the video signal exce eded some threshold (which apparently occurs when the graph exceeds a certain si ze). Try displaying one of those wordy help screens or a display with "bold" values e nabled and see if the problem appears there. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. [1]http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [4]time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [5]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [6]time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [7]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ 2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 4. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com 5. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts 6. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com 7. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts From ch at murgatroid.com Sat Sep 6 19:06:10 2008 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:06:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <008a01c91075$27153890$753fa9b0$@com> "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" L: > Going back to Agilent's origins at HP, AFAIK, only Hewlett and Packard > ever had traditional "offices" with walls to the ceiling and doors. > Their offices are preserved in the condition they were in when > H & P left the company. Employees can visit these offices, which > are like a museum. Yep, they are still there, as is the old board room. My cubicle at HP Labs is about 25 yards away from them. The old board room is still use, mostly for customer visits to Labs. -ch From jgd at johngsbbq.com Sun Sep 7 00:53:39 2008 From: jgd at johngsbbq.com (Neon John) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:53:39 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 07:09:33 -0400, "Bob Paddock" wrote: >> The cubicle? > >Anti-Productivity Pods: Cubicles as Dilbert so astutely noted. > >"For my money the most important work on software productivity in the >last 20 years > is DeMarco and Lister's Peopleware (1987 Dorset House Publishing, NY >NY). Peopleware became my management handbook. I can't tell you how many copies I've purchased and handed out to clients. > Surprisingly, none of the factors you'd expect to matter correlated to the best > and worst performers. Even experience mattered little, as long as the >programmers > had been working for at least 6 months. They did find a very strong correlation > between the office environment and team performance. Needless >interruptions yielded > poor performance. The best teams had private (read "quiet") offices >and phones with > "off" switches. Their study suggests that quiet time saves vast >amounts of money. One of the most significant findings, one I took to heart in my shop, was that it took about 30 minutes of recovery to get back to the state the person was in when he was interrupted. "Interrupted" is anything that interrupts the train of thought, be it a phone, someone walking in or someone cutting up elsewhere in the cube farm. > > Think about this. The almost minor tweak of getting some quiet time can, > according to their data, multiply your productivity by 260%! > That's an astonishing result. For the same salary your boss pays you now, > he'd get essentially 2.6 of you." -- Jack Ganssle in The Embedded Muse #25. I found that book right after I hired on with Dunn & Bradstreet to manage their new sales automation software development group. I implemented all the recommendations and then some. The door to our cube farm got a cipher lock and no one outside our group had the combo. That stopped the steady stream of company salesmen and testing personnel who used to drift in any time they wanted. I had the PBX reprogrammed to give each person in my group an "off" button that sent all calls either to reception or voice mail. I equipped each cubicle with a dorm room refrigerator and small Mr. Coffee. I paid to have them stocked out of my discretionary budget. I'd have put a head in each cube if that had been possible. Walkmans and other headphone-based entertainment was encouraged but no devices that made noise were allowed. Not even speakers on the developers' PCs. No meetings were allowed in the cube farm and voices above a whisper were banned. The cube farm was ringed with small conference rooms where teams could go to meet and coordinate. I had pink noise generators installed which masked the normal noises such as chairs bumping into desks and file drawers opening and closing. It took a few weeks for my group to come on board but then they loved it. They were self-policing. Anyone who made noise or otherwise disturbed the environment was quickly set upon by those disturbed. My group's productivity soared by all measures. My guys were happy campers. Turnover was nil. Yet for the 2 years that I stayed at the company, we were under constant assault from whiners and malingerers elsewhere in the company because we were getting "special treatment". After two years of fending off that crap, I'd had enough. I took the best of my team and went back into private practice. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Some people are like a Slinky .. not really good for anything but you still smile when you shove them down the stairs. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 7 09:56:25 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 14:56:25 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. Message-ID: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184 'scope calibrator. This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater winding wrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which is supposed to switch at 75 celsius. I've not measured the switching temperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairly warm (40 plus degrees?). The oven is turning on and off. It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tube circuit). The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitor of 3-12pF. The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p. I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage which couples it to the first stage of a countdown board. For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz and is fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust the frequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), then suddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soon stabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and the lowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz where xxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx and down to 10.0002xxx. I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect. If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a high impedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pF loading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead. Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than it is (30ppm) - but ... Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, and recommendations for fixing things? Cheers Dave From bob.paddock at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 09:57:37 2008 From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:57:37 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Beware, programmers have turned to screaming, blithering idiots with bits of their brains > oozing out all of their orifices just by glancing at that page. Worse than writing a Web Server in the language "BF"? The "B" stands for Brain, and I'm not going to put the "F" on a family oriented list like this one. The following program prints "Hello World!" and a newline to the screen, from the Wikipedia entry: ++++++++++ [ >+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<- ] this loop sets the next four cells to 70/100/30/10 >++. print 'H' >+. print 'e' +++++++. 'l' . 'l' +++. 'o' >++. space <<+++++++++++++++. 'W' >. 'o' +++. 'r' ------. 'l' --------. 'd' >+. '!' >. newline That is not a badly formated message, that is what the cost is... At least it doesn't require a custom keyboard to code it. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Sun Sep 7 10:00:53 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:00:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> Message-ID: <124F6752BF6B42F5BDF9F8F3D4035B96@APOLLO> Oops I think its about 300ppm there... D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 September 2008 14:56 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184 'scope calibrator. This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater winding wrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which is supposed to switch at 75 celsius. I've not measured the switching temperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairly warm (40 plus degrees?). The oven is turning on and off. It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tube circuit). The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitor of 3-12pF. The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p. I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage which couples it to the first stage of a countdown board. For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz and is fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust the frequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), then suddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soon stabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and the lowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz where xxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx and down to 10.0002xxx. I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect. If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a high impedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pF loading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead. Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than it is (30ppm) - but ... Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, and recommendations for fixing things? Cheers Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Sun Sep 7 13:40:42 2008 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:40:42 GMT Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator Message-ID: <0809071740.AA10528@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Neon John wrote: > I'd have put a head in each cube > if that had been possible. What kind of head? Or whose head? Curious, MS From aa8k at comcast.net Sun Sep 7 14:13:01 2008 From: aa8k at comcast.net (Mike Naruta AA8K) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:13:01 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <0809071740.AA10528@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0809071740.AA10528@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: <48C419AD.5080108@comcast.net> Head is slang for toilet. Michael Sokolov wrote: > Neon John wrote: > >> I'd have put a head in each cube >> if that had been possible. > > What kind of head? Or whose head? > > Curious, > MS > From brice at weaponeer.com Sun Sep 7 15:56:24 2008 From: brice at weaponeer.com (brice at weaponeer.com) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 19:56:24 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. (William Rice) Message-ID: Grrrr. email failure, maybe a repeat: I have one of those oscillators in a tek 184 that I do not use anymore. Those calibrators are really cool, I used one for a long time when I first started tinkering. If you need it, you can have the oscillator. (brice at weaponeer.com) Good luck! Still needed HP 2509A digital clock manual, Help!!! -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-request at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-request at febo.com] Sent: Sunday, September 7, 2008 11:00 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 50, Issue 12 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to time-nuts at febo.comTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nutsor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to time-nuts-request at febo.comYou can reach the person managing the list at time-nuts-owner at febo.comWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specificthan "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..."Today's Topics: 1. Re: Help with HP 8640B generator (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) (christopher hoover) 2. Re: Help with HP 8640B generator (Neon John) 3. Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. (David C. Partridge) 4. Re: I want a good micro-controller (Bob Paddock) 5. Re: Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. (David C. Partridge)----------------------------------------------------------------------Message: 1Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 16:06:10 -0700From: "christopher hoover" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)To: Message-ID: <008a01c91075$27153890$753fa9b0$@com>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii""Richard (Rick) Karlquist" L:> Going back to Agilent's origins at HP, AFAIK, only Hewlett and Packard> ever had traditional "offices" with walls to the ceiling and doors.> Their offices are preserved in the condition they were in when> H & P left the company. Employees can visit these offices, which> are like a museum.Yep, they are still there, as is the old board room. My cubicle at HP Labs is about 25 yards away from them.The old board room is still use, mostly for customer visits to Labs.-ch------------------------------Message: 2Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 00:53:39 -0400From: Neon John Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generatorTo: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-asciiOn Sat, 6 Sep 2008 07:09:33 -0400, "Bob Paddock" wrote:>> The cubicle?>>Anti-Productivity Pods: Cubicles as Dilbert so astutely noted.>>"For my money the most important work on software productivity in the>last 20 years> is DeMarco and Lister's Peopleware (1987 Dorset House Publishing, NY>NY). Peopleware became my management handbook. I can't tell you how many copiesI've purchased and handed out to clients.> Surprisingly, none of the factors you'd expect to matter correlated to the best> and worst performers. Even experience mattered little, as long as the>programmers> had been working for at least 6 months. They did find a very strong correlation> between the office environment and team performance. Needless>interruptions yielded> poor performance. The best teams had private (read "quiet") offices>and phones with> "off" switches. Their study suggests that quiet time saves vast>amounts of money.One of the most significant findings, one I took to heart in my shop, was thatit took about 30 minutes of recovery to get back to the state the person wasin when he was interrupted. "Interrupted" is anything that interrupts thetrain of thought, be it a phone, someone walking in or someone cutting upelsewhere in the cube farm.>> Think about this. The almost minor tweak of getting some quiet time can,> according to their data, multiply your productivity by 260%!> That's an astonishing result. For the same salary your boss pays you now,> he'd get essentially 2.6 of you." -- Jack Ganssle in The Embedded Muse #25.I found that book right after I hired on with Dunn & Bradstreet to managetheir new sales automation software development group. I implemented all therecommendations and then some. The door to our cube farm got a cipher lockand no one outside our group had the combo. That stopped the steady stream ofcompany salesmen and testing personnel who used to drift in any time theywanted.I had the PBX reprogrammed to give each person in my group an "off" buttonthat sent all calls either to reception or voice mail. I equipped eachcubicle with a dorm room refrigerator and small Mr. Coffee. I paid to havethem stocked out of my discretionary budget. I'd have put a head in each cubeif that had been possible. Walkmans and other headphone-based entertainment was encouraged but no devicesthat made noise were allowed. Not even speakers on the developers' PCs. Nomeetings were allowed in the cube farm and voices above a whisper were banned.The cube farm was ringed with small conference rooms where teams could go tomeet and coordinate. I had pink noise generators installed which masked thenormal noises such as chairs bumping into desks and file drawers opening andclosing.It took a few weeks for my group to come on board but then they loved it. Theywere self-policing. Anyone who made noise or otherwise disturbed theenvironment was quickly set upon by those disturbed.My group's productivity soared by all measures. My guys were happy campers.Turnover was nil. Yet for the 2 years that I stayed at the company, we wereunder constant assault from whiners and malingerers elsewhere in the companybecause we were getting "special treatment". After two years of fending offthat crap, I'd had enough. I took the best of my team and went back intoprivate practice.John--John De ArmondSee my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.comhttp://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!Tellico Plains, Occupied TNSome people are like a Slinky .. not really good for anything but you still smile when you shove them down the stairs.------------------------------Message: 3Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 14:56:25 +0100From: "David C. Partridge" Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Message-ID: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A at APOLLO>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184'scope calibrator. This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater windingwrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which issupposed to switch at 75 celsius. I've not measured the switchingtemperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairlywarm (40 plus degrees?). The oven is turning on and off.It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tubecircuit). The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitorof 3-12pF. The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p.I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage whichcouples it to the first stage of a countdown board.For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz andis fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust thefrequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), thensuddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soonstabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and thelowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz wherexxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx anddown to 10.0002xxx.I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect.If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a highimpedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pFloading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead.Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than itis (30ppm) - but ...Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, andrecommendations for fixing things?CheersDave------------------------------Message: 4Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 09:57:37 -0400From: "Bob Paddock" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] I want a good micro-controllerTo: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1> Beware, programmers have turned to screaming, blithering idiots with bits of their brains> oozing out all of their orifices just by glancing at that page.Worse than writing a Web Server in the language "BF"? The "B" standsfor Brain, and I'm not going to put the "F" on a family oriented list likethis one.The following program prints "Hello World!" and a newline to the screen,from the Wikipedia entry:++++++++++[ >+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-] this loop sets the next four cells to 70/100/30/10>++. print 'H'>+. print 'e'+++++++. 'l'. 'l'+++. 'o'>++. space<<+++++++++++++++. 'W'>. 'o'+++. 'r'------. 'l'--------. 'd'>+. '!'>. newlineThat is not a badly formated message, that is what the cost is...At least it doesn't require a custom keyboard to code it.------------------------------Message: 5Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:00:53 +0100From: "David C. Partridge" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Message-ID: <124F6752BF6B42F5BDF9F8F3D4035B96 at APOLLO>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"Oops I think its about 300ppm there...D. -----Original Message-----From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] OnBehalf Of David C. PartridgeSent: 07 September 2008 14:56To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator.I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184'scope calibrator. This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater windingwrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which issupposed to switch at 75 celsius. I've not measured the switchingtemperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairlywarm (40 plus degrees?). The oven is turning on and off.It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tubecircuit). The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitorof 3-12pF. The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p.I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage whichcouples it to the first stage of a countdown board.For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz andis fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust thefrequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), thensuddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soonstabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and thelowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz wherexxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx anddown to 10.0002xxx.I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect.If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a highimpedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pFloading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead.Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than itis (30ppm) - but ...Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, andrecommendations for fixing things?CheersDave_______________________________________________time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go tohttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nutsand follow the instructions there.------------------------------_______________________________________________time-nuts mailing listtime-nuts at febo.comhttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nutsEnd of time-nuts Digest, Vol 50, Issue 12***************************************** From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 7 18:03:14 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:03:14 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> Message-ID: <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> David C. Partridge wrote: > I'm having some problems with an ancient Bulova OCXO in a Tektronix 184 > 'scope calibrator. > > This is an crystal mounted on an octal valve base with a heater winding > wrapped round it, and a common or garden variety thermostat which is > supposed to switch at 75 celsius. I've not measured the switching > temperature, as I don't have the means but the outer case does get fairly > warm (40 plus degrees?). The oven is turning on and off. > > It is used in a circuit with a 7587 Nuvistor tetrode (yes it's a valve/tube > circuit). The crystal is connected cathode to G1 with a trimmer capacitor > of 3-12pF. The signal at the cathode is supposed to be about 70V p-p. > > I'm measuring the frequency of the signal after the transformer stage which > couples it to the first stage of a countdown board. > > For the first minute or so after turn on from cold, it sits below 10MHz and > is fairly stable and climbing as the oven warms up, and I can adjust the > frequency up towards 10MHz with the capacitor (but not all the way), then > suddenly, at the stage where it is starting to look as if it will soon > stabilise at about the right frequency, it jumps to way over 10MHz and the > lowest I can get it down to with the capacitor is about 10.0003xxx MHz where > xxx is not very stable at all - in fact it can vary up to to 10.0005xxx and > down to 10.0002xxx. > > I've tried freeze spray on most of the components round there to no effect. > > If I try to probe the signal at the cathode of the nuvistor even with a high > impedance active probe with a P6201 with a 100x attenuator (about 1pF > loading IIRC) the oscillation just drops dead. > > Now for calibrating 'scopes, it doesn't need to be any more accurate than it > is (30ppm) - but ... > > Do any of the collected mavens have an explanation for the behaviour, and > recommendations for fixing things? > > Cheers > Dave > > Dave Need a few more circuit details. The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other components connected to G1. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 7 18:38:12 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:38:12 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> > Dave > > Need a few more circuit details. > The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other components > connected to G1. > > Bruce > > The anode G1 capacitance is about 10fF so with 25V rms at the anode, the crystal current would be around 16uA if the circuit relies on feedback via the anode to grid 1 capacitance. This seems to be a little low to be useful. You could try substituting a newer 7587 there are several currently available on ebay and elsewhere. Bruce From jim77742 at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 21:52:22 2008 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:52:22 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG Message-ID: Hi all, For those of you mainly in Australia and New Zealand you may remember VNG - the now long departed short wave Australian Time Signal service. These words will be familiar: "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. VNG is a standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian Telecommunications Commission." and in fact if it were going now would be saying: "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. A standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian Telecommunications Commission. Your attention please. In accordance with international agreement the VNG time signals will be retarded by precisely 1 second on the 1st of January at zero hours Coordinated Universal Time." Now to the good bit. I have acquired a cassette tape of original recordings of these words that was used at VNG. The quality is surprisingly good. It includes 8 items: 1) 13-Dec-1966 VNG maintenance announcement 2) VNG station identification announcement by Len Grice (above) that was broadcast every 15 minutes 3) January leap second announcement (above) 4) July leap second announcement 5) 1987 closure announcement by an unknown female voice 6) Final shortwave transmission at 30-Sep-1987 of VNG ending in static 7) Full studio take of all Len Grice's announcements - including stuff ups 8) Radio Australia broadcast article on the closure of VNG dated 4-Oct-1987. (Poor quality due to poor SW reception) For safe keeping I have digitised all these using a BOSS Micro BR digital recorder and they are stored safely off site. For those of you who would like to listen to a bit of Australia's history, send me an email and I'll send you a 721KB MP3 of number 2. I'm sure it will generate a few fond memories. It sure did for me. Regards, Jim Palfreyman From jgd at johngsbbq.com Sun Sep 7 23:11:28 2008 From: jgd at johngsbbq.com (Neon John) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 23:11:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with HP 8640B generator In-Reply-To: <0809071740.AA10528@ivan.Harhan.ORG> References: <0809071740.AA10528@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Sep 2008 17:40:42 GMT, msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) wrote: >Neon John wrote: > >> I'd have put a head in each cube >> if that had been possible. > >What kind of head? Or whose head? Navy-speak for "toilet". John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill. From namichie at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 00:12:05 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:12:05 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There was a VNG users group that maintained the broadcast for some years before the transmitter broke down. The same group developed a battery powered GPS receiver that delivered a time service of pips and a display of current time. See http://tufi.alphalink.com.au/vnguc/ The email address is not current. I think the receiver lacked a disciplined oscillator to give standard frequency output. This device is very interesting as it is easy to provide a UPS for it and so maintain an accurate time standard that is not subject to drop out. This should be useful to a time-nut like me who monitors pendulum timekeepers and is interested in earth tides and similar phenomena. Does any one know of a similar device or was any of our time-nuts involved with this receiver? cheers, Neville Michie On 08/09/2008, at 11:52 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Hi all, > > For those of you mainly in Australia and New Zealand you may > remember VNG - > the now long departed short wave Australian Time Signal service. > These words > will be familiar: > > "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. > VNG is a > standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian > Telecommunications Commission." > > and in fact if it were going now would be saying: > > "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. A > standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian > Telecommunications Commission. Your attention please. In accordance > with > international agreement the VNG time signals will be retarded by > precisely 1 > second on the 1st of January at zero hours Coordinated Universal > Time." > > Now to the good bit. > > I have acquired a cassette tape of original recordings of these > words that > was used at VNG. The quality is surprisingly good. It includes 8 > items: > > 1) 13-Dec-1966 VNG maintenance announcement > 2) VNG station identification announcement by Len Grice (above) > that was > broadcast every 15 minutes > 3) January leap second announcement (above) > 4) July leap second announcement > 5) 1987 closure announcement by an unknown female voice > 6) Final shortwave transmission at 30-Sep-1987 of VNG ending in static > 7) Full studio take of all Len Grice's announcements - including > stuff ups > 8) Radio Australia broadcast article on the closure of VNG dated 4- > Oct-1987. > (Poor quality due to poor SW reception) > > For safe keeping I have digitised all these using a BOSS Micro BR > digital > recorder and they are stored safely off site. > > For those of you who would like to listen to a bit of Australia's > history, > send me an email and I'll send you a 721KB MP3 of number 2. > > I'm sure it will generate a few fond memories. It sure did for me. > > Regards, > > Jim Palfreyman > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jim77742 at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 00:59:55 2008 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:59:55 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes I was really interested in that unit many years back and made enquiries. It all came to nothing. Hence my dive into time and frequency standards to learn to build my own and hence becoming a time-nut. I modified Murray Greenman's GPS clock to produce VNG tones and for good measure I built a 30 second digital voice recorder kit (from Jaycar) and recorded the actual VNG announcement into it. Murray has also made his own VNG kit ( http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MICRO/VNGBOX/index.htm). And interestingly with my recent dive into AVR micro-controllers I've whipped up a VNG clock with tones. It also has a push button that when pressed logs the time of the button-press to the nearest millsecond. Sort of like a stop watch but recording absolute time instead. It can record up to 99 events. All this only took me a few hours and I built it to learn about the AVR. I plan to drive this from a small rubidium unit (that I got from ebay) and two 12V SLA batteries will make my own portable rubidium clock that sounds like VNG for about $150 total! Regards, Jim 2008/9/8 Neville Michie > There was a VNG users group that maintained the broadcast for some > years before the > transmitter broke down. The same group developed a battery powered > GPS receiver that > delivered a time service of pips and a display of current time. See > http://tufi.alphalink.com.au/vnguc/ > The email address is not current. > I think the receiver lacked a disciplined oscillator to give standard > frequency output. > This device is very interesting as it is easy to provide a UPS for it > and so maintain > an accurate time standard that is not subject to drop out. This > should be useful > to a time-nut like me who monitors pendulum timekeepers and is > interested in earth tides > and similar phenomena. > > Does any one know of a similar device or was any of our time-nuts > involved with this receiver? > cheers, > Neville Michie > > > > On 08/09/2008, at 11:52 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > For those of you mainly in Australia and New Zealand you may > > remember VNG - > > the now long departed short wave Australian Time Signal service. > > These words > > will be familiar: > > > > "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. > > VNG is a > > standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian > > Telecommunications Commission." > > > > and in fact if it were going now would be saying: > > > > "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. A > > standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian > > Telecommunications Commission. Your attention please. In accordance > > with > > international agreement the VNG time signals will be retarded by > > precisely 1 > > second on the 1st of January at zero hours Coordinated Universal > > Time." > > > > Now to the good bit. > > > > I have acquired a cassette tape of original recordings of these > > words that > > was used at VNG. The quality is surprisingly good. It includes 8 > > items: > > > > 1) 13-Dec-1966 VNG maintenance announcement > > 2) VNG station identification announcement by Len Grice (above) > > that was > > broadcast every 15 minutes > > 3) January leap second announcement (above) > > 4) July leap second announcement > > 5) 1987 closure announcement by an unknown female voice > > 6) Final shortwave transmission at 30-Sep-1987 of VNG ending in static > > 7) Full studio take of all Len Grice's announcements - including > > stuff ups > > 8) Radio Australia broadcast article on the closure of VNG dated 4- > > Oct-1987. > > (Poor quality due to poor SW reception) > > > > For safe keeping I have digitised all these using a BOSS Micro BR > > digital > > recorder and they are stored safely off site. > > > > For those of you who would like to listen to a bit of Australia's > > history, > > send me an email and I'll send you a 721KB MP3 of number 2. > > > > I'm sure it will generate a few fond memories. It sure did for me. > > > > Regards, > > > > Jim Palfreyman > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > > time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Sep 8 02:06:03 2008 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:06:03 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48C4C0CB.5000502@rubidium.dyndns.org> Dave, Bruce, > Need a few more circuit details. > The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other components > connected to G1. As expected, BAMA can assist: http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/184/ I am thinking about undamped overtones/other modes of the crystal and similar. Cheers, Magnus From jim77742 at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 02:22:04 2008 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:22:04 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List In-Reply-To: <91981b3e0809061123x8944ce4mdad2559ce60612a2@mail.gmail.com> References: <8C1E01B3C43FF44EAC6658014AB0617A0234DCC8@PSCDALPEXCH03.perotsystems.net> <91981b3e0809061123x8944ce4mdad2559ce60612a2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Or even better..... Have each email come to a gmail account. Very quick to search then. (and I know it doesn't work for old posts!) I've been converted to gmail's method of email handling. i.e. Never delete anything and make searching very fast. Jim 2008/9/7 Chris Kuethe > On Sat, Sep 6, 2008 at 10:30 AM, J.D. Bakker wrote: > >>I am new to the time nuts mailing list and I have one question. How do > >>I search the mail list archives for a specific topic or keyword? > > > > As far as I am aware there is no direct way to search the entire > > archive. A workable workaround is to google for "site:www.febo.com > > time-nuts YourKeyword" (without the quotes). > > site:febo.com inurl:pipermail/time-nuts YourKeyword > > -- > GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Sep 8 03:41:11 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 19:41:11 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C4C0CB.5000502@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C4C0CB.5000502@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <48C4D717.5010101@xtra.co.nz> Magnus Danielson wrote: > Dave, Bruce, > > >> Need a few more circuit details. >> The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other components >> connected to G1. >> > > As expected, BAMA can assist: > http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/184/ > > I am thinking about undamped overtones/other modes of the crystal and > similar. > > Cheers, > Magnus > The crystal oscillator is in effect a miller oscillator using the screen grid as the oscillator anode/plate see: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/s6310508.pdf The oscillator plate/anode (screen grid is grounded) in this circuit. The tube plate/anode forms a well isolated auxiliary output tuned to the 5th harmonic of the crystal. If the tube emission has dropped the gm may have fallen rather too close to the critical value required for oscillation making the circuit sensitive to loading at the grid. Both the trimmer and the cathode tank slug affect the frequency. Bruce From namichie at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 03:49:27 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:49:27 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jim, and all, I was very interested in the 200mW GPS, as it could discipline a TCXO to give what for time-nuts would be a low grade reference. I have a solar battery system that can only support about 5 watts for ever. It would be nice if my clock logging system could be backed up by it so even if the power never came back on it would be still running. I too recently got a rubidium oscillator. I noticed its power demands drop at lower ambient temperature so I could run it at 40*C with only 7.5 watts. That lead into the project of a fan control that controls the temperature of the base plate to 40*C. You can watch the control voltage on the crystal drifting as it warms up, but with the fan control it holds constant after warm up. I wonder if I am seriously upgrading the stability of the LPRO by temperature controlling it. The problem with rubidium is it will take weeks to see if it drifts in frequency. cheers, Neville Michie On 08/09/2008, at 2:59 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Yes I was really interested in that unit many years back and made > enquiries. > It all came to nothing. Hence my dive into time and frequency > standards to > learn to build my own and hence becoming a time-nut. > > I modified Murray Greenman's GPS clock to produce VNG tones and for > good > measure I built a 30 second digital voice recorder kit (from > Jaycar) and > recorded the actual VNG announcement into it. > > Murray has also made his own VNG kit ( > http://www.qsl.net/zl1bpu/MICRO/VNGBOX/index.htm). > > And interestingly with my recent dive into AVR micro-controllers I've > whipped up a VNG clock with tones. It also has a push button that when > pressed logs the time of the button-press to the nearest > millsecond. Sort of > like a stop watch but recording absolute time instead. It can > record up to > 99 events. All this only took me a few hours and I built it to > learn about > the AVR. > > I plan to drive this from a small rubidium unit (that I got from > ebay) and > two 12V SLA batteries will make my own portable rubidium clock that > sounds > like VNG for about $150 total! > > Regards, > > Jim > > > 2008/9/8 Neville Michie > >> There was a VNG users group that maintained the broadcast for some >> years before the >> transmitter broke down. The same group developed a battery powered >> GPS receiver that >> delivered a time service of pips and a display of current time. See >> http://tufi.alphalink.com.au/vnguc/ >> The email address is not current. >> I think the receiver lacked a disciplined oscillator to give standard >> frequency output. >> This device is very interesting as it is easy to provide a UPS for it >> and so maintain >> an accurate time standard that is not subject to drop out. This >> should be useful >> to a time-nut like me who monitors pendulum timekeepers and is >> interested in earth tides >> and similar phenomena. >> >> Does any one know of a similar device or was any of our time-nuts >> involved with this receiver? >> cheers, >> Neville Michie >> >> >> >> On 08/09/2008, at 11:52 AM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: >> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> For those of you mainly in Australia and New Zealand you may >>> remember VNG - >>> the now long departed short wave Australian Time Signal service. >>> These words >>> will be familiar: >>> >>> "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 MHz. >>> VNG is a >>> standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian >>> Telecommunications Commission." >>> >>> and in fact if it were going now would be saying: >>> >>> "This is VNG, Lyndhurst, Victoria, Australia on 4.5, 7.5 or 12 >>> MHz. A >>> standard frequency and time signal service of the Australian >>> Telecommunications Commission. Your attention please. In accordance >>> with >>> international agreement the VNG time signals will be retarded by >>> precisely 1 >>> second on the 1st of January at zero hours Coordinated Universal >>> Time." >>> >>> Now to the good bit. >>> >>> I have acquired a cassette tape of original recordings of these >>> words that >>> was used at VNG. The quality is surprisingly good. It includes 8 >>> items: >>> >>> 1) 13-Dec-1966 VNG maintenance announcement >>> 2) VNG station identification announcement by Len Grice (above) >>> that was >>> broadcast every 15 minutes >>> 3) January leap second announcement (above) >>> 4) July leap second announcement >>> 5) 1987 closure announcement by an unknown female voice >>> 6) Final shortwave transmission at 30-Sep-1987 of VNG ending in >>> static >>> 7) Full studio take of all Len Grice's announcements - including >>> stuff ups >>> 8) Radio Australia broadcast article on the closure of VNG dated 4- >>> Oct-1987. >>> (Poor quality due to poor SW reception) >>> >>> For safe keeping I have digitised all these using a BOSS Micro BR >>> digital >>> recorder and they are stored safely off site. >>> >>> For those of you who would like to listen to a bit of Australia's >>> history, >>> send me an email and I'll send you a 721KB MP3 of number 2. >>> >>> I'm sure it will generate a few fond memories. It sure did for me. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jim Palfreyman >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ >>> time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From don.key at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 8 06:42:38 2008 From: don.key at ntlworld.com (Don Key) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:42:38 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Browsing & Searching the Time Nuts Mailing List Message-ID: <9CE6745E04A24F0292BB93B1645B686B@jim1y5ga1y99zh> I go here when I want to search the archives:- http://www.mail-archive.com/time-nuts at febo.com/ From buehl at superlink.net Mon Sep 8 12:32:04 2008 From: buehl at superlink.net (buehl) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:32:04 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Odetics - Kobe Model 3100 TIA Manual ??? In-Reply-To: <569miasu10986S08.1220293312@cmsweb08.cms.usa.net> References: <569miasu10986S08.1220293312@cmsweb08.cms.usa.net> Message-ID: Emmanouil Sorry for delay, but took me a while to find where it was stored. I have a .pdf copy of the manual. Cna email if your server will accept 7 MB attachment. contact me off-line. buehl -at- superlink.net Tom Buehl At 09:21 PM 9/1/2008 +0300, you wrote: >Hi >I am searching for the Model 3000 TIA (Odetics / Kode) manual. >Any idea ?? > > > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Mon Sep 8 13:22:46 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:22:46 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: Nuvistor is NOS, and I've tried swapping them. Circuit has anode (plate) connected to a 50MHz tuned tank. G1 is connected to ground via a 100K resistor, and to the cathode via the crystal and trimmer cap. Cathode connected to ground via a ferrite tunable slug inductor (6-10uH) close to a similar one also 6-10uH. The second one has 100K in parallel with 1nF to ground, and 15pF across the inductor. The second one has a pick off coil of a couple of turns which sends the signal to the countdown board. The full schematic is in the Tektronix 184 manual on BAMA which is in djvu format. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: 07 September 2008 23:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. > Dave > > Need a few more circuit details. > The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other > components connected to G1. > > Bruce > > The anode G1 capacitance is about 10fF so with 25V rms at the anode, the crystal current would be around 16uA if the circuit relies on feedback via the anode to grid 1 capacitance. This seems to be a little low to be useful. You could try substituting a newer 7587 there are several currently available on ebay and elsewhere. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From brooke at pacific.net Mon Sep 8 13:33:34 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net> Hi Dave: Do you have a photo? It's been my experience that older electronic equipment fails because of poor connections rather than bad components. For many examples see: http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam David C. Partridge wrote: > Nuvistor is NOS, and I've tried swapping them. > > Circuit has anode (plate) connected to a 50MHz tuned tank. > > G1 is connected to ground via a 100K resistor, and to the cathode via the > crystal and trimmer cap. > > Cathode connected to ground via a ferrite tunable slug inductor (6-10uH) > close to a similar one also 6-10uH. The second one has 100K in parallel > with 1nF to ground, and 15pF across the inductor. The second one has a > pick off coil of a couple of turns which sends the signal to the countdown > board. > > The full schematic is in the Tektronix 184 manual on BAMA which is in djvu > format. > > Cheers > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: 07 September 2008 23:38 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. > > >> Dave >> >> Need a few more circuit details. >> The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other >> components connected to G1. >> >> Bruce >> >> > The anode G1 capacitance is about 10fF so with 25V rms at the anode, the > crystal current would be around 16uA if the circuit relies on feedback via > the anode to grid 1 capacitance. > This seems to be a little low to be useful. > You could try substituting a newer 7587 there are several currently > available on ebay and elsewhere. > > Bruce > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Mon Sep 8 13:35:37 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:35:37 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C4D717.5010101@xtra.co.nz> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz><48C4C0CB.5000502@rubidium.dyndns.org> <48C4D717.5010101@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: Agree that the tank slug can also affect the frequency slightly. I've tried a number of 7587s including what I was fairly sure to be NOS parts - at least they came in the correct box. I suspect I can pull the frequency a bit by paralleling another 5 or 6pF across the trimmer (why has the parts box never got what you are looking for? - this feels like a corollary to Murphy). The main issue is how unstable it is - maybe I just stop chasing this and write it down to a very old crystal that's aged out of spec, and just replace it with a regular 20ppm room temperature part. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: 08 September 2008 08:41 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. Magnus Danielson wrote: > Dave, Bruce, > > >> Need a few more circuit details. >> The crystal current wont be very high unless their are other >> components connected to G1. >> > > As expected, BAMA can assist: > http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/tek/184/ > > I am thinking about undamped overtones/other modes of the crystal and > similar. > > Cheers, > Magnus > The crystal oscillator is in effect a miller oscillator using the screen grid as the oscillator anode/plate see: http://www.ieee-uffc.org/freqcontrol/tutorials/s6310508.pdf The oscillator plate/anode (screen grid is grounded) in this circuit. The tube plate/anode forms a well isolated auxiliary output tuned to the 5th harmonic of the crystal. If the tube emission has dropped the gm may have fallen rather too close to the critical value required for oscillation making the circuit sensitive to loading at the grid. Both the trimmer and the cathode tank slug affect the frequency. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From sv1bke at usa.net Mon Sep 8 14:40:46 2008 From: sv1bke at usa.net (EMMANOUIL MANTZARAS) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 21:40:46 +0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Odetics - Kobe Model 3100 TIA Manual ??? Message-ID: <030miHsnU6476S01.1220899246@cmsweb01.cms.usa.net> Hi Tom Thanks for your attention to my message. Yes, my mail provider accepts big files, so please try to send me the pdf. Thanks in advance Emmanouil Mantzaras sv1bke ------ Original Message ------ Received: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:33:41 PM EEST From: buehl To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odetics - Kobe Model 3100 TIA Manual ??? Emmanouil Sorry for delay, but took me a while to find where it was stored. I have a .pdf copy of the manual. Cna email if your server will accept 7 MB attachment. contact me off-line. buehl -at- superlink.net Tom Buehl At 09:21 PM 9/1/2008 +0300, you wrote: >Hi >I am searching for the Model 3000 TIA (Odetics / Kode) manual. >Any idea ?? > > > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From scmcgrath at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 15:50:06 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:50:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration Message-ID: All, I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking into it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? I am now rebuidling the circuit board with glass filled epoxy (West Brothers + microsphere filler) with a mold/retaining dam made from silicone rubber. Also back when I was at UNH when I was young and foolish a HP 117A was my introduction to precision timing as Jim Williams in Demerrit Hall's maintained the frequency standard which consisted of a HP117A and a HP 5245M frequency counter along with a decade worth of recorder output. From rexa at sonic.net Mon Sep 8 15:53:22 2008 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:53:22 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net> Message-ID: <48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Dave: > > Do you have a photo? > > It's been my experience that older electronic equipment fails because of poor > connections rather than bad components. For many examples see: > http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > Brook, A little off topic from the original thread, but on your referenced page, in the "Dead CRT Computer Monitor" section, the blown device is probably a TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor). My first thought was that it was a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) but the symbol was different. With a bit of Google, I found this page: http://books.google.com/books?id=4SkqFozu80MC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=schematic+symbol+MOV&source=web&ots=VydlPTFGNA&sig=A8fKQfYQ3Agb0OU8iEMwM9Zhdsc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA122,M1 (Wow! What a URL. Good chance it will wrap in the email. If you can't copy that, it is page 122 in the google online book "Embedded Systems Design Using the Rabbit 3000 Microprocessor". Seems like a pretty good description of voltage suppressors if you scroll back and forth a few pages.) So I just thought I'd try to help with the device, as your page still has it as an open question. Still unknown is the voltage rating and what caused it to blow. Since you mention it was on the AC mains, there is a good chance it was just doing what it was supposed to do, and the voltage should be something a bit greater than the AC input voltage. -Rex From rexa at sonic.net Mon Sep 8 15:55:51 2008 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:55:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net> <48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> Message-ID: <48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Rex wrote: > Brooke Clarke wrote: > >> Hi Dave: >> >> Do you have a photo? >> >> It's been my experience that older electronic equipment fails because of poor >> connections rather than bad components. For many examples see: >> http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> >> > > Brook, > > A little off topic from the original thread, but on your referenced > page, in the "Dead CRT Computer Monitor" section, the blown device is > probably a TVS (Transient Voltage Suppressor). My first thought was that > it was a MOV (Metal Oxide Varistor) but the symbol was different. With a > bit of Google, I found this page: > http://books.google.com/books?id=4SkqFozu80MC&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=schematic+symbol+MOV&source=web&ots=VydlPTFGNA&sig=A8fKQfYQ3Agb0OU8iEMwM9Zhdsc&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA122,M1 > > (Wow! What a URL. Good chance it will wrap in the email. If you can't > copy that, it is page 122 in the google online book "Embedded Systems > Design Using the Rabbit 3000 Microprocessor". Seems like a pretty good > description of voltage suppressors if you scroll back and forth a few > pages.) > > So I just thought I'd try to help with the device, as your page still > has it as an open question. Still unknown is the voltage rating and what > caused it to blow. Since you mention it was on the AC mains, there is a > good chance it was just doing what it was supposed to do, and the > voltage should be something a bit greater than the AC input voltage. > > -Rex > > > Dang! Glancing again at the page just after I sent, the symbol IS an alternative form for a MOV, not a TVS. All the rest still applies. -Rex From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Sep 8 16:45:01 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:45:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration References: Message-ID: <6cc301c911f3$c80621e0$0500a8c0@pc52> > All, > > I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking into > it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and > in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction > motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness > connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a > manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred > hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the > chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly > enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY > good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? Scott, I have a 117A like this too. The purpose of the motor and its gears was to slowly move the phase in order to offset the received frequency by some parts in 10^10th. This was done in the 60's and early 70's to convert between UT (universal time) and AT (atomic time). All part of leap second history. /tvb http://www.LeapSecond.com From SAIDJACK at aol.com Mon Sep 8 17:48:35 2008 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:48:35 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Scott found an issue on Fury GPSDO Message-ID: Hello fellow time nuts, please disregard email if you do not have one of our Fury's. Over the last many months Scott has been helping pin down an obscure problem in the Fury GPSDO firmware. He was instrumental in identifying the issue, and verifying various ways to make it happen, and verifying the fix for it. Thank you for your help and great efforts on this Scott! This issue may happen with very low occurrence frequency if for example one repeatedly sends the meas? command to the unit. I am happy to say that we have finally found the root cause (an obscure resource contention that would take sometimes several weeks to manifest itself, so it was hard to debug) and fixed it. We also scoured the source code for any similar potential issues. This issue does not seem to affect the frequency stability of the unit, but could disable RS-232 communication for example. Version 1.21 of the Fury firmware which fixes this problem is now available for download on the Jackson Labs website, under the support tab: _http://www.jackson-labs.com/support.html_ (http://www.jackson-labs.com/support.html) Thanks again for everyone's help and support. Please keep sending us your comments and any issues that you may see, bye, Said **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From jim77742 at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 19:55:54 2008 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:55:54 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files Message-ID: Folks, Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station BR_002 is the regular announcement that occurred every 15 minutes that you will all know and love. BR_006 is the final couple of minutes before the death of VNG. If it doesn't send a shiver down your spine then I'm sorry you cannot call yourself a "time-nut". :-) Regards, Jim From clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au Mon Sep 8 23:20:21 2008 From: clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au (clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:20:21 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files Message-ID: <200809090320.m893KM6g018344@mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080909/536142fc/attachment.txt From scmcgrath at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 23:34:21 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:34:21 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: <6cc301c911f3$c80621e0$0500a8c0@pc52> References: <6cc301c911f3$c80621e0$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: Tom, Since everything is now UTC is it worth preserving this electric offset system ? It would certainly be a neater package if the TRF module actually fit within the case! My thoughts were to combine this with a 105B On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 4:45 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >> All, >> >> I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking into >> it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and >> in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction >> motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness >> connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a >> manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred >> hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the >> chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly >> enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY >> good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? > > Scott, > > I have a 117A like this too. The purpose of the motor and > its gears was to slowly move the phase in order to offset the > received frequency by some parts in 10^10th. This was done > in the 60's and early 70's to convert between UT (universal > time) and AT (atomic time). All part of leap second history. > > /tvb > http://www.LeapSecond.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jgd at johngsbbq.com Tue Sep 9 00:22:43 2008 From: jgd at johngsbbq.com (Neon John) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:22:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files In-Reply-To: <200809090320.m893KM6g018344@mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> References: <200809090320.m893KM6g018344@mail03.syd.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: Likewise, thanks. Are you going to be able to post any of the other files? I'd love to hear #7 and #8. Thanks again, John On Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:20:21 +1000, clintjeffrey at optusnet.com.au wrote: >Hi Jim, > Many thanks for making the recordings available, it brought back a fond memory, I must be a time-nut!....hey does anyone issue a time-nut Certificate or an Award type of thing?....that's an idea...;p) > >Cheers > >Clint - VK3CSJ > > > >> Jim Palfreyman wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those >> that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: >> >> http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Statio >> n >> >> BR_002 is the regular announcement that occurred every 15 minutes that >> you >> will all know and love. >> BR_006 is the final couple of minutes before the death of VNG. If it >> doesn't >> send a shiver down your spine then I'm sorry you cannot call yourself a >> "time-nut". >> >> :-) >> >> Regards, >> >> Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN You can't turn [MS] shovelware into reliable software by patching it a whole lot. -Marcus Ranum From tvb at LeapSecond.com Tue Sep 9 00:46:15 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:46:15 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration References: <6cc301c911f3$c80621e0$0500a8c0@pc52> Message-ID: <000901c91237$025584b0$0500a8c0@pc52> > Tom, > > Since everything is now UTC is it worth preserving this electric > offset system ? It would certainly be a neater package if the TRF > module actually fit within the case! My thoughts were to combine > this with a 105B Scott, No, from a practical standpoint the fixed offset system will not benefit you today. From a collectors perspective, its a cool link to the days before leap seconds were adopted. It should be possible to remove the motor parts and have the hp 117A look and work like a normal one. Combining with a 105B is fine. An Austron 2010B is also a possibility, since it does smoothing and drift removal. /tvb From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Sep 9 14:19:39 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 19:19:39 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net><48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> <48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: Following the good advice I received about increasing the value of the trimmer capacitor, I replaced the trimmer which was originally 3-12pF, with another one which was 2-22pF. This has given the additional adjustment range to allow me to pull the crystal to meet the specification. It's not mega-stable, varying between 9.9999619 MHz to 10.0000232 MHz over the course of a minute or so as the thermostat cycles, but certainly within the 10ppm specification and varying up and down by about 6-7ppm. This is before the full 2 hour warm up period is complete, but I don't things will change much over the next 45 minutes or so. The stability seems to be improving as the warm up continues which is good. I may be able to tweak it so the variation is more evenly balanced around 10.0000000 MHz, but the trimmer adjustment is pretty sensitive. Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. Thanks to all Cheers Dave From jmiles at pop.net Tue Sep 9 16:07:41 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 13:07:41 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Following the good advice I received about increasing the value of the > trimmer capacitor, I replaced the trimmer which was originally > 3-12pF, with > another one which was 2-22pF. > > This has given the additional adjustment range to allow me to pull the > crystal to meet the specification. > > It's not mega-stable, varying between 9.9999619 MHz to 10.0000232 MHz over > the course of a minute or so as the thermostat cycles, but > certainly within > the 10ppm specification and varying up and down by about 6-7ppm. This is > before the full 2 hour warm up period is complete, but I don't things will > change much over the next 45 minutes or so. The stability seems to be > improving as the warm up continues which is good. > > I may be able to tweak it so the variation is more evenly balanced around > 10.0000000 MHz, but the trimmer adjustment is pretty sensitive. > > Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the > oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. You might have an intermittent solder joint or component lead that's being flexed when you touch various points with the probe. Does a plastic alignment tool cause the same behavior? Or, more likely, there's so much loss in the circuit due to aging/component failure that it won't restart oscillating on its own without going through a power-up cycle. -- john, KE5FX From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Sep 9 16:25:09 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 21:25:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <999B0172A5824FC5AE719B697525372B@APOLLO> I checked all the solder joints in the area (to the extent of remaking them). Maybe there's a high resistance joint inside the mess of oxidised shellac etc inside the OCXO. Nuvistor is NOS, and I subbed another from my reserves just to be sure (still in sealed plastic bag with perforated tear off to open) with no impact on behaviour. A ceramic alignment tool doesn't cause the same behaviour, but a probe sure does. D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: 09 September 2008 21:08 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. You might have an intermittent solder joint or component lead that's being flexed when you touch various points with the probe. Does a plastic alignment tool cause the same behavior? Or, more likely, there's so much loss in the circuit due to aging/component failure that it won't restart oscillating on its own without going through a power-up cycle. -- john, KE5FX From ka2cdk at cox.net Tue Sep 9 18:27:48 2008 From: ka2cdk at cox.net (Thomas A. Frank) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:27:48 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <999B0172A5824FC5AE719B697525372B@APOLLO> References: <999B0172A5824FC5AE719B697525372B@APOLLO> Message-ID: <1D581148-7C50-4326-A972-8D989F99523A@cox.net> > A ceramic alignment tool doesn't cause the same behaviour, but a > probe sure > does. Something is whispering "grounding". I'm not sure why, but that is where I would start looking... Tom Frank, KA2CDK From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Sep 9 18:49:59 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 10:49:59 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <1D581148-7C50-4326-A972-8D989F99523A@cox.net> References: <999B0172A5824FC5AE719B697525372B@APOLLO> <1D581148-7C50-4326-A972-8D989F99523A@cox.net> Message-ID: <48C6FD97.2070303@xtra.co.nz> Thomas A. Frank wrote: >> A ceramic alignment tool doesn't cause the same behaviour, but a >> probe sure >> does. >> > > > Something is whispering "grounding". > > I'm not sure why, but that is where I would start looking... > > Tom Frank, KA2CDK > > > > This particular variant of the miller oscillator uses the screen grid to grid1 capacitance for feedback. This capacitance is at most a few pF. Thus even a shunt capacitance as small as 1pF to ground at the grid will change the effective the feedback capacitance significantly. Both the crystal and the cathode load impedance are inductive at the oscillation frequency. Bruce From jgd at johngsbbq.com Tue Sep 9 20:20:06 2008 From: jgd at johngsbbq.com (Neon John) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:20:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net><48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> <48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 19:19:39 +0100, "David C. Partridge" wrote: >Following the good advice I received about increasing the value of the >trimmer capacitor, I replaced the trimmer which was originally 3-12pF, with >another one which was 2-22pF. I would leave the same trimmer in there and shunt it with a fixed 10pF cap. That way the adjustment won't be so touchy. >Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the >oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. That says that the circuit had just enough gain and positive feed back to oscillate but just barely. I'd have to see the circuit to recommend changes. The root cause is probably lost gain in the tube but that can be compensated for. I was just sitting here thinking about the oven problem. If you replace the thermostat with the proper power PTC thermister, you could make the oven linearly regulate at a single temperature. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom! From jmiles at pop.net Tue Sep 9 20:45:22 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 17:45:22 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the > >oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. > > That says that the circuit had just enough gain and positive feed back to > oscillate but just barely. I'd have to see the circuit to > recommend changes. > The root cause is probably lost gain in the tube but that can be > compensated > for. How's the filament voltage at the 7587 socket, by the way? A shorted turn in your power transformer might account for some lack of enthusiasm on the Nuvistor's part. -- john, KE5FX From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Sep 9 21:08:48 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 18:08:48 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: Message from "John Miles" of "Tue, 09 Sep 2008 17:45:22 PDT." Message-ID: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > How's the filament voltage at the 7587 socket, by the way? A shorted > turn in your power transformer might account for some lack of > enthusiasm on the Nuvistor's part. I'd expect a shorted turn on a power transformer to let the smoke out. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Sep 9 22:13:34 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:13:34 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> Is the screen grid bypassing still effective? If this is marginal the oscillator may exhibit the described sensitivity to loading at grid 1. Bruce From jmiles at pop.net Tue Sep 9 22:46:30 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 19:46:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: > > > How's the filament voltage at the 7587 socket, by the way? A shorted > > turn in your power transformer might account for some lack of > > enthusiasm on the Nuvistor's part. > > I'd expect a shorted turn on a power transformer to let the smoke out. > Depends on a lot of things, but yes, usually. :) -- john, KE5FX From biwa at att.net Tue Sep 9 23:17:07 2008 From: biwa at att.net (Burt I. Weiner) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 20:17:07 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tek 184 Time Base Generator... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20080909200956.036e3608@att.net> I originally used a 184 Time Mark Generator for some of my broadcast measurements where I needed 10 kHz markers throughout the AM broadcast band. I don't recall it having drift anywhere near that amount. I wonder if your oscillator tube is on the verge of croaking or if the stone has become feeble. I don't think these devices needed a great deal of accuracy, certainly by "our" standards, just enough to set the time base adjustments in a scope. Burt, K6OQK At 07:48 PM 9/9/2008, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote >I may be able to tweak it so the variation is more evenly balanced around >10.0000000 MHz, but the trimmer adjustment is pretty sensitive. > >Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the >oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. > >Thanks to all > >Cheers >Dave Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. biwa at att.net K6OQK From namichie at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 01:54:10 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:54:10 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> References: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <8D16936E-1904-402D-AAAA-90224D9CDCFC@gmail.com> > Is this calibrator gated? Back in the stone age when I started work, a CRO (with a 5BP1 tube in it) was calibrated in time by a gated oscillator that put little pips on the trace at 1 microsecond intervals. So that the markers would not crawl across the screen the oscillator was stopped and started for each trace so as to be in phase with the synch pulse. The CRO was probably 1950s vintage, I was using it in 1961 for calibration of navigation radar. The CRO tubes were very non-linear so graticule divisions were not accurate enough. cheers, Neville Michie > _____________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Sep 10 02:41:57 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:41:57 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <8D16936E-1904-402D-AAAA-90224D9CDCFC@gmail.com> References: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> <8D16936E-1904-402D-AAAA-90224D9CDCFC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C76C35.7010305@xtra.co.nz> Neville Michie wrote: > > Is this calibrator gated? > > Back in the stone age when I started work, a CRO (with a 5BP1 tube in > it) was calibrated in time by a gated oscillator > that put little pips on the trace at 1 microsecond intervals. > So that the markers would not crawl across the screen the oscillator > was stopped > and started for each trace so as to be in phase with the synch pulse. > The CRO was probably 1950s vintage, I was using it in 1961 for > calibration of navigation radar. > The CRO tubes were very non-linear so graticule divisions were not > accurate enough. > cheers, > Neville Michie > > No, its just a crystal oscillator plus a collection of frequency multipliers dividers and pulse shapers with no gating (other than frequency/period selection switches) in evidence. Bruce From namichie at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 06:57:24 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:57:24 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO Message-ID: <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> Hi, I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium oscillator. When I read the specs I noticed that at 18V supply and about 40*C the unit only requires about 8 watts. That is getting close to what my stand-alone power source can maintain. Running at a higher temperature takes a little load off the ovens on the lamp and the detector, but it does have a penalty in MTBF. At 40*C I thought the trade-off was worth it. Now the local crystal oscillator is not temperature controlled and its control voltage drifts widely. So I bolted the LPRO to a plate of aluminium about 1/4 inch thick. On the other side of the aluminium plate I bolted heat sink fins about 3/4 long over the whole length. The whole unit mounts inside a piece of about 3X4 aluminium extrusion. At one end in a little plenum chamber I mounted a12V 1 watt 40mm brushless DC ball bearing fan, in the AL plate I drilled a deep well in which a bead thermistor lives. The whole thing is insulated in 1/2 inch plastic foam sheet. When the fan running on 12V the temperature is held to 4 *C above ambient. At 8 volts this rises to about 7*C. The fan is quite unobtrusive on 8 V. The thermistor is in a bridge circuit and switches the fan in a PWM control mode with a 50 second cycle time. The surface of the plate has less than 0.1*C variation over a day with no sign of the temperature cycling. The oscillator control voltage now rises on startup and then becomes rock steady. The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure how well the LPRO now performs at constant temperature. Cheers, Neville Michie From martin.fischer at ericsson.com Wed Sep 10 06:57:41 2008 From: martin.fischer at ericsson.com (Martin Fischer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:57:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard Message-ID: Hello Community, currently I am trying to revive a Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard (http://www.thinksrs.com/products/FS700.htm ) .It shows an error message "Pattern Memory Test FAIL". Unfortunately the O & S manual is missing the schematic circuit diagrams. Should anybody own the schematics of this instrument or know if they are available for download somewhere? Any hint will be highly appreciated. Regards Martin From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Wed Sep 10 09:29:36 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:29:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver ? Message-ID: <9CB89B2551CE4BAA830D330DBCEA4959@athlon> Gents, over the course of the last year I have lost track on what is the state of the art in GPS timinig receivers. Is there still something like the MOTOROLA M12+ available or a descendant or a compatible model? Or what would otherwise be the choice of today? Best regards and TIA Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From peterawson at earthlink.net Wed Sep 10 10:53:34 2008 From: peterawson at earthlink.net (Pete) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:53:34 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard References: Message-ID: Martin, SRS would be happy to sell a hard copy of the manual to you, but they don't give anything away! Pete Rawson From jherrero at hvsistemas.es Wed Sep 10 11:33:05 2008 From: jherrero at hvsistemas.es (Javier Herrero) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:33:05 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver ? In-Reply-To: <9CB89B2551CE4BAA830D330DBCEA4959@athlon> References: <9CB89B2551CE4BAA830D330DBCEA4959@athlon> Message-ID: <48C7E8B1.3040804@hvsistemas.es> You've the M12M timing GPS from iLotus, that bought the GPS business from Motorola. Functionally equivalent to the M12+, same footprint, and better characteristics (includes an TCXO so it is lest prone to temperature variations, and also claims improved sensitivity). You can find more information about it here: http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/m12mt_brochure.pdf Best regards, Javier, EA1CRB Ulrich Bangert escribi?: > > over the course of the last year I have lost track on what is the state > of the art in GPS timinig receivers. Is there still something like the > MOTOROLA M12+ available or a descendant or a compatible model? Or what > would otherwise be the choice of today? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero at hvsistemas.com HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17A FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 12:45:13 2008 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:45:13 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver ? In-Reply-To: <9CB89B2551CE4BAA830D330DBCEA4959@athlon> References: <9CB89B2551CE4BAA830D330DBCEA4959@athlon> Message-ID: <91981b3e0809100945i601d8a41v9c1c77e919b0e905@mail.gmail.com> I keep a list of receivers people use for timing purposes. At home I'm running a ublox antaris 4T for the good stuff, and a garmin gps18 hanging off my public ntp server. http://gpsd.berlios.de/hardware.html#timing On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 6:29 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote: > Gents, > > over the course of the last year I have lost track on what is the state > of the art in GPS timinig receivers. Is there still something like the > MOTOROLA M12+ available or a descendant or a compatible model? Or what > would otherwise be the choice of today? > > Best regards and TIA > > Ulrich Bangert > www.ulrich-bangert.de > Ortholzer Weg 1 > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 10 12:49:35 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:49:35 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> References: <20080910010849.87654BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <48C72D4E.6040504@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <7AD810908A17497A9F3060409F0E68E8@APOLLO> I was probing at the cathode not at G1 FWIW. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: 10 September 2008 03:14 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. Is the screen grid bypassing still effective? If this is marginal the oscillator may exhibit the described sensitivity to loading at grid 1. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 10 12:53:40 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:53:40 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net><48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net><48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: <38C16DBE9057423BA473BD36EA34A3D5@APOLLO> A completely unused (had to open the perforations on the plastic bag inside the box) NOS nuvistor substitution made no difference to the effect of probing. D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Neon John Sent: 10 September 2008 01:20 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. On Tue, 9 Sep 2008 19:19:39 +0100, "David C. Partridge" wrote: >Following the good advice I received about increasing the value of the >trimmer capacitor, I replaced the trimmer which was originally 3-12pF, >with another one which was 2-22pF. I would leave the same trimmer in there and shunt it with a fixed 10pF cap. That way the adjustment won't be so touchy. >Still don't understand why probing with a 10Meg, 1pF load kills the >oscillation stone dead until the next power cycle. That says that the circuit had just enough gain and positive feed back to oscillate but just barely. I'd have to see the circuit to recommend changes. The root cause is probably lost gain in the tube but that can be compensated for. I was just sitting here thinking about the oven problem. If you replace the thermostat with the proper power PTC thermister, you could make the oven linearly regulate at a single temperature. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom! _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 10 13:12:20 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:12:20 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net><48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net><48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: Now that's an interesting thought. How should one go about specifying such a part? Do you have any experience of doing this? We'd be looking at (I guess) a turnover from almost short circuit to darn near open circuit over a range of a few degrees centred on 75 celsius. Do such beasties exist? If it's relevant there are two heater windings, one for 230V, one for 115V though both do go through the thermostat. This rather surprised me as I would have expected two windings and only use one for 115V, and switch the second in series for 230V, but if I'm reading the circuit diagram right (not g'teed) this isn't what happens (it's on the last schematic page which is the power supply for those who've donwloaded the manual from BAMA). There's also something connected between the two windings which looks a bit like two cup-hooks - what this is I'm not sure. I don't recognise the symbol at all, it could just represent the bimetal strip part of the thermostat. I also don't quite understand the point of the capacitor at the top end of the 230V winding. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Neon John Sent: 10 September 2008 01:20 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. I was just sitting here thinking about the oven problem. If you replace the thermostat with the proper power PTC thermister, you could make the oven linearly regulate at a single temperature. John -- John De Armond See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! Tellico Plains, Occupied TN Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom! _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From scmcgrath at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 13:18:14 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:18:14 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO> <48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net> <48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net> <48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: The interlinked cup hooks are a fuse or fusible link. there may be others as EIA only standardized symbols in the late 60's and Mid 70's Just look in older HP documentation and see how many symbols they used for zener diodes!. On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 1:12 PM, David C. Partridge wrote: > Now that's an interesting thought. > > How should one go about specifying such a part? > > Do you have any experience of doing this? We'd be looking at (I guess) a > turnover from almost short circuit to darn near open circuit over a range of > a few degrees centred on 75 celsius. Do such beasties exist? > > If it's relevant there are two heater windings, one for 230V, one for 115V > though both do go through the thermostat. > > This rather surprised me as I would have expected two windings and only use > one for 115V, and switch the second in series for 230V, but if I'm reading > the circuit diagram right (not g'teed) this isn't what happens (it's on the > last schematic page which is the power supply for those who've donwloaded > the manual from BAMA). > > There's also something connected between the two windings which looks a bit > like two cup-hooks - what this is I'm not sure. > I don't recognise the symbol at all, it could just represent the bimetal > strip part of the thermostat. > > I also don't quite understand the point of the capacitor at the top end of > the 230V winding. > > Cheers > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Neon John > Sent: 10 September 2008 01:20 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. > > I was just sitting here thinking about the oven problem. If you replace the > thermostat with the proper power PTC thermister, you could make the oven > linearly regulate at a single temperature. > > John > -- > John De Armond > See my website for my current email address http://www.neon-john.com > http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net! > Tellico Plains, Occupied TN > Multitasking: Reading in the bathroom! > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From martin.fischer at ericsson.com Wed Sep 10 13:19:13 2008 From: martin.fischer at ericsson.com (Martin Fischer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:19:13 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Pete, thank you for your quick reply. Your comment "SRS would be happy to sell a hard copy of the manual to you, but they don't give anything away!" exactly matches my experience with this company; they charge $38.50 for a replacement manual, $30 for handling and bank transfer costs, and maybe another $30 for shipment costs... :-[ Too much for a 14 page schematic; so my question persists if anybody could provide a complimentary pdf copy. Any hint will be highly appreciated. Regards Martin From wb6bnq at cox.net Wed Sep 10 14:30:33 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:30:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO References: <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C81249.BF5257FF@cox.net> Hi Neville, You said ". . . I mounted a12V 1 watt 40mm brushless DC ball bearing fan, . . " Damn, is that thing turbo charged ? Bill....WB6BNQ Neville Michie wrote: > Hi, > I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium > oscillator. > When I read the specs I noticed that at 18V supply and about 40*C the > unit only requires about > 8 watts. That is getting close to what my stand-alone power source > can maintain. > Running at a higher temperature takes a little load off the ovens on > the lamp and the detector, > but it does have a penalty in MTBF. At 40*C I thought the trade-off > was worth it. > Now the local crystal oscillator is not temperature controlled and > its control voltage drifts widely. > So I bolted the LPRO to a plate of aluminium about 1/4 inch thick. On > the other side of the aluminium plate > I bolted heat sink fins about 3/4 long over the whole length. > The whole unit mounts inside a piece of about 3X4 aluminium > extrusion. At one end in a little plenum > chamber I mounted a12V 1 watt 40mm brushless DC ball bearing fan, in > the AL plate I drilled a > deep well in which a bead thermistor lives. > The whole thing is insulated in 1/2 inch plastic foam sheet. > When the fan running on 12V the temperature is held to 4 *C above > ambient. At 8 volts this rises to about 7*C. > The fan is quite unobtrusive on 8 V. > The thermistor is in a bridge circuit and switches the fan in a PWM > control mode with a 50 second cycle time. > The surface of the plate has less than 0.1*C variation over a day > with no sign of the temperature cycling. > The oscillator control voltage now rises on startup and then becomes > rock steady. > The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure > how well the LPRO now performs > at constant temperature. > Cheers, > Neville Michie > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Sep 10 14:35:10 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:35:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO In-Reply-To: Message from Neville Michie of "Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:57:24 +1000." <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080910183511.D019BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium > oscillator. > The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure > how well the LPRO now performs at constant temperature. How much did it drift before your recent work? How did you measure it? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From wb6bnq at cox.net Wed Sep 10 14:35:50 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 11:35:50 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO References: <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C81386.F4063DE0@cox.net> Hi Neville, In all seriousness, I thought the Rubidium physics package is heated for reasons. Now that you are heat sinking it, what has happened to the current draw for the whole unit ? Or am I misunderstanding something ? Bill....WB6BNQ Neville Michie wrote: > Hi, > I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium > oscillator. > When I read the specs I noticed that at 18V supply and about 40*C the > unit only requires about > 8 watts. That is getting close to what my stand-alone power source > can maintain. > Running at a higher temperature takes a little load off the ovens on > the lamp and the detector, > but it does have a penalty in MTBF. At 40*C I thought the trade-off > was worth it. > Now the local crystal oscillator is not temperature controlled and > its control voltage drifts widely. > So I bolted the LPRO to a plate of aluminium about 1/4 inch thick. On > the other side of the aluminium plate > I bolted heat sink fins about 3/4 long over the whole length. > The whole unit mounts inside a piece of about 3X4 aluminium > extrusion. At one end in a little plenum > chamber I mounted a12V 1 watt 40mm brushless DC ball bearing fan, in > the AL plate I drilled a > deep well in which a bead thermistor lives. > The whole thing is insulated in 1/2 inch plastic foam sheet. > When the fan running on 12V the temperature is held to 4 *C above > ambient. At 8 volts this rises to about 7*C. > The fan is quite unobtrusive on 8 V. > The thermistor is in a bridge circuit and switches the fan in a PWM > control mode with a 50 second cycle time. > The surface of the plate has less than 0.1*C variation over a day > with no sign of the temperature cycling. > The oscillator control voltage now rises on startup and then becomes > rock steady. > The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure > how well the LPRO now performs > at constant temperature. > Cheers, > Neville Michie > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com Wed Sep 10 15:56:57 2008 From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 07:56:57 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver? Message-ID: Ulrich, Living where you do, I'd suggest checking out the U-BLOX range of modules. The model you need is the LEA-5T. The LEA-5 family is state-of-the-art, and I believe uses an ATMEL DSP software baseband engine (with reportedly one million correlators!) I have two of their modules (LEA-5H and LEA-5P) here for evaluation, and they are impressive. Unfortunately they didn't send me the timing version! See http://www.u-blox.com/products/lea_5t.html and http://www.u-blox.com/products/evk_5t.html This module has self-survey, single-satellite mode, 15ns timing accuracy and a configurable time pulse. The easiest (and no doubt most expensive!) way to deploy this module would be to buy the evaluation kit EVK-5T, which comes with USB and RS232 interface, active antenna, power supply and all the software and documentation. From my experience, the U-BLOX PC support software is excellent. U-BLOX are based in Switzerland, so more-or-less speak your language. 73, Murray ZL1BPU From dforbes at dakotacom.net Wed Sep 10 16:25:26 2008 From: dforbes at dakotacom.net (David Forbes) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:25:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO In-Reply-To: <48C81386.F4063DE0@cox.net> References: <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> <48C81386.F4063DE0@cox.net> Message-ID: <48C82D36.3050303@dakotacom.net> WB6BNQ wrote: > Hi Neville, > > In all seriousness, I thought the Rubidium physics package is heated for > reasons. Now that you are heat sinking it, what has happened to the current draw > for the whole unit ? Or am I misunderstanding something ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > He's not cooling it, he's insulating it from the cool room air. As I understand it, the idea is to make an insulated, warm room for the LPRO to live in, so that its heater doesn't have to work so hard to reach 40C. This is a common approach to keeping equipment temperature stable in a changing environment. It only works if the room air is cold enough, but when it can be used, it works quite well. We use a similar approach in our radiotelescope computer room, by blending the usually cold outside air with the HVAC's return air (which has been heated by 4kW worth of equipment) to make supply air that's just right for the equipment. We used a proportional blending air damper with an off-the-shelf PID controller. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Wed Sep 10 16:38:34 2008 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:38:34 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver? Message-ID: Hello Murray, the uBlox GPS are very excellent, yes, but their timing accuracy is still nowhere near that of the M12M. They also require external sawtooth correction to achieve the stated accuracy. They do work better than M12's in a mobile environment, and are more sensitive. BTW: I know of one company that has been shipping GPSDO products based on the uBlox GPS' for several months now :) The M12M and even the M12+ are still king of stationary timing receivers as far as I know. Maybe Javad will have something in the future that can improve upon the M12M? bye, Said In a message dated 9/10/2008 12:55:17 Pacific Daylight Time, Murray.Greenman at rakon.com writes: Living where you do, I'd suggest checking out the U-BLOX range of modules. The model you need is the LEA-5T. The LEA-5 family is state-of-the-art, and I believe uses an ATMEL DSP software baseband engine (with reportedly one million correlators!) **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Sep 10 16:58:14 2008 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:58:14 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. In-Reply-To: References: <57568D7DB5D04FB2989B00043F5AD06A@APOLLO><48C44FA2.8000509@xtra.co.nz> <48C457D4.4000302@xtra.co.nz> <48C561EE.7070103@pacific.net><48C582B2.6060300@sonic.net><48C58347.3060002@sonic.net> Message-ID: <866A52351A73464E9DF3B5B998060A8A@APOLLO> Out of curiosity, I tried to find something that might do the job. The only PTC thermistor I could find was from Digikey (mfr GE Infrastructure) with a transition temperature in the right range was 70C and rated at only 25 volts, and that was 50 Ohms at 25C :-( D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 10 September 2008 18:12 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ancient OCXO in scope calibrator. Now that's an interesting thought. How should one go about specifying such a part? Do you have any experience of doing this? We'd be looking at (I guess) a turnover from almost short circuit to darn near open circuit over a range of a few degrees centred on 75 celsius. Do such beasties exist? If it's relevant there are two heater windings, one for 230V, one for 115V though both do go through the thermostat. This rather surprised me as I would have expected two windings and only use one for 115V, and switch the second in series for 230V, but if I'm reading the circuit diagram right (not g'teed) this isn't what happens (it's on the last schematic page which is the power supply for those who've donwloaded the manual from BAMA). There's also something connected between the two windings which looks a bit like two cup-hooks - what this is I'm not sure. I don't recognise the symbol at all, it could just represent the bimetal strip part of the thermostat. I also don't quite understand the point of the capacitor at the top end of the 230V winding. Cheers Dave From namichie at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 18:30:19 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:30:19 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO In-Reply-To: <20080910183511.D019BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20080910183511.D019BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <028F62E4-A540-4BCE-8978-9F3A9C042A77@gmail.com> Hi Hal, My aim is to run a stable time standard to analyse the long term performance of clocks. Part of this project is to set up a power support system so that logging is never interrupted. Now the LPRO draws less power at lower supply voltage and higher operating temperature and decreasing the power demand was important. Now OCXO systems are greatly improved by double ovening them so it seems hard to believe that the LPRO will not improve with accurate control of temperature. My project is not complete and my planned method of measuring drift is with a digital oscilloscope comparing the phase of PPS from GPS stabilised systems to the divided 10MHz from the LPRO over a period of days, weeks, months or years. cheers, Neville Michie On 11/09/2008, at 4:35 AM, Hal Murray wrote: > >> I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium >> oscillator. > >> The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure >> how well the LPRO now performs at constant temperature. > > How much did it drift before your recent work? How did you measure > it? > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From namichie at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 18:43:21 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 08:43:21 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Temp control of LPRO In-Reply-To: <48C81386.F4063DE0@cox.net> References: <91DA2EE1-7072-4513-BDBE-D44EB97B7D56@gmail.com> <48C81386.F4063DE0@cox.net> Message-ID: <6C1A592D-310C-4C3E-9CEE-A368770FA275@gmail.com> Hi Bill, the lamp and detector of the LPRO are both thermostat controlled. At higher case temperature the power to heat them decreases as do the temperature gradients in the device. From 17watts at 32V supply at 0*C it can be reduced to 7.5 watts at 18 v supply and 45*C. Although spec'ed to 70*C there is a MTBF penalty for higher temperature operation. If your shack never gets over 40*C it is possible to control the LPRO to 45*C by controlling its self heating with a tiny fan. I built the LPRO into a thick walled aluminium box which is insulated with foam plastic, through the box is a duct with fins that the tiny fan blows through and by switching the fan I get control much better than 0.1*C. I am looking forward to measuring its performance in frequency stability. cheers, Neville Michie On 11/09/2008, at 4:35 AM, WB6BNQ wrote: > Hi Neville, > > In all seriousness, I thought the Rubidium physics package is > heated for > reasons. Now that you are heat sinking it, what has happened to > the current draw > for the whole unit ? Or am I misunderstanding something ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > Neville Michie wrote: > >> Hi, >> I have just commissioned a temperature control for my LPRO rubidium >> oscillator. >> When I read the specs I noticed that at 18V supply and about 40*C the >> unit only requires about >> 8 watts. That is getting close to what my stand-alone power source >> can maintain. >> Running at a higher temperature takes a little load off the ovens on >> the lamp and the detector, >> but it does have a penalty in MTBF. At 40*C I thought the trade-off >> was worth it. >> Now the local crystal oscillator is not temperature controlled and >> its control voltage drifts widely. >> So I bolted the LPRO to a plate of aluminium about 1/4 inch thick. On >> the other side of the aluminium plate >> I bolted heat sink fins about 3/4 long over the whole length. >> The whole unit mounts inside a piece of about 3X4 aluminium >> extrusion. At one end in a little plenum >> chamber I mounted a12V 1 watt 40mm brushless DC ball bearing fan, in >> the AL plate I drilled a >> deep well in which a bead thermistor lives. >> The whole thing is insulated in 1/2 inch plastic foam sheet. >> When the fan running on 12V the temperature is held to 4 *C above >> ambient. At 8 volts this rises to about 7*C. >> The fan is quite unobtrusive on 8 V. >> The thermistor is in a bridge circuit and switches the fan in a PWM >> control mode with a 50 second cycle time. >> The surface of the plate has less than 0.1*C variation over a day >> with no sign of the temperature cycling. >> The oscillator control voltage now rises on startup and then becomes >> rock steady. >> The next step is to get on with the building of the gear to measure >> how well the LPRO now performs >> at constant temperature. >> Cheers, >> Neville Michie >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/ >> listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From w1ksz at earthlink.net Wed Sep 10 20:00:13 2008 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:00:13 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5355A Heads ?? Message-ID: <21808339.1221091213467.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> IIRC, someone had some of the heads used to extend the range of the HP 5355A Plug-In. Can that person contact me. I have a 5355A coming (hopefully a working one !!) and would like to try one or two. Tnx, Dick, W1KSZ From Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com Thu Sep 11 05:15:31 2008 From: Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com (Reeves Paul) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:15:31 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver? Message-ID: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> Hello Murray, The ublox LEA-5T does not have the RAW data output facility of the LEA-4T, otherwise they are pretty much a drop-in replacement. This might be significant in some cases (and means I won't be giving up my LEA-4T system just yet...). I have a -5T on order and it will be interesting to compare them (they are both the same price). Very nice reliable modules, good documentation. 73s Paul, G8GJA -----Original Message----- From: Murray Greenman [mailto:Murray.Greenman at rakon.com] Sent: 10 September 2008 20:57 To: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Cc: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver? Ulrich, Living where you do, I'd suggest checking out the U-BLOX range of modules. The model you need is the LEA-5T. The LEA-5 family is state-of-the-art, and I believe uses an ATMEL DSP software baseband engine (with reportedly one million correlators!) I have two of their modules (LEA-5H and LEA-5P) here for evaluation, and they are impressive. Unfortunately they didn't send me the timing version! See http://www.u-blox.com/products/lea_5t.html and http://www.u-blox.com/products/evk_5t.html This module has self-survey, single-satellite mode, 15ns timing accuracy and a configurable time pulse. The easiest (and no doubt most expensive!) way to deploy this module would be to buy the evaluation kit EVK-5T, which comes with USB and RS232 interface, active antenna, power supply and all the software and documentation. From my experience, the U-BLOX PC support software is excellent. U-BLOX are based in Switzerland, so more-or-less speak your language. 73, Murray ZL1BPU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. This email, including any attachment, is a confidential communication intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. It contains information which is private and may be proprietary or covered by legal professional privilege. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender upon receipt, and immediately delete it from your system. Anything contained in this email that is not connected with the businesses of this company is neither endorsed by nor is the liability of this company. Whilst we have taken reasonable precautions to ensure that any attachment to this email has been swept for viruses, we cannot accept liability for any damage sustained as a result of software viruses, and would advise that you carry out your own virus checks before opening any attachment. From ernieperes at aol.com Thu Sep 11 06:06:34 2008 From: ernieperes at aol.com (ernieperes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:06:34 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. In-Reply-To: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> Message-ID: <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> My Trimble GPSDO just arrive but I have a problem with the POWER Supply Unit. After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if all voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. Opening the box found Q1 transistor / BUZ78 / blown and seems to me that it was a short around R1, R2 and C11 area, namely the two resistor had short to each-other...../ factory bad installation??? / Anybody having a circuit diagram ????? I am trying to repair..... Please help, I just do not want to throw the unit to the garbage can. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Sep 11 09:50:48 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:50:48 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c91415$6970f910$0500a8c0@pc52> > My Trimble GPSDO just arrive but I have a problem with the POWER Supply > Unit. > > After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if all > voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run > on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a > big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. > Opening the box found Q1 transistor / BUZ78 / blown and seems to me > that it was a short around R1, R2 and C11 > area, namely the two resistor had short to each-other...../ factory bad > installation??? / > Anybody having a circuit diagram ????? I am trying to repair..... > > Please help, I just do not want to throw the unit to the garbage can. I'll take care of a replacement for you; contact me off-line. /tvb From scmcgrath at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:32:29 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:32:29 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: <8CAE234CDC34838-1E58-48D@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAE1519C68FA8E-B64-4A25@webmail-dd07.sysops.aol.com> <8CAE234CDC34838-1E58-48D@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Russ, Yes i did and it was a marvelous hack in the best sense of the word, It was fascinating to see how this actually worked, it of course is no longer necessary and I have removed it in favor of protecting the A1 assembly fully within the chassis. My 117A is a Prefix 438A unit and my manual covers 525A and below. I'm still debating whether to use a AMRAD antenna and disconnect the +35 from the antenna (by installing a jumper block for reversability) or find the proper 10509A loop antenna for authenticity. I have been offered a amp assembly for the antenna by another member so I have thought about fabricating the actual loop assembly but I do not have dimensions for the loop itself which looks to be center tapped which also would the tube which bisects the loop. I bought this a decade ago and was only able to find a manual recently always kept it because I knew how rare this unit is. Right now it's been recapped (electrolytics) and I have replaced the chassis mount transistors BTW a NTE121 will replace the TO-3 pass transistor if that has given up the ghost. RIght now I am going through the power supply board A9 and replacing the resistors many of which have changed value after physically rebuilding the PCB which had a 1/2" hole burned in the area of R2-4. One of the challenges of recapping is that electrolytics are now much smaller for equivalent ratings so a lot of teflon sleeving has been used to prevent potential short circuits. So much fun to be had with this stuff! - Regards Scott On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM, wrote: > > Scott, > > Good luck on the rare 117A. > > Did you get my e-mail with attachment containing the pages of the manual for > your updated unit? > > Russ > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott McGrath > To: wa3frp at aol.com > Sent: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:42 pm > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration > > > > Hi, Ross > > Please - It would be interesting to see how this worked. From the > date codes on the components my 117A was built in late 1964 - date > codes on conversion module date from 1968. As Tom noted it is a > interesting historical footnote from use of the atomic timescale to > UTC timescale with leap seconds. And now due to the influence of > embedded device manfacturers who want 'cheap n cheerful' firmware we > are now discussing doing away with leap seconds. Interesting how > the pendulum of historical trends oscillates. > > Right now the 117A is having all the electrolytics replaced while I am > reconstructing the PS module trace by trace > > - Scott > > > > On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 7:43 AM, wrote: >> >> Scott, >> I had a chance to look at my HP 117A manual last night and saw that > > your >> >> configuration is described there. If it is not described in the HP > > 117A >> >> manual that you have, would you like me to copy those pages and send > > them to >> >> you as an attachment? >> Russ >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott McGrath >> To: time-nuts at febo.com >> Sent: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 3:50 pm >> Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration >> >> >> >> All, >> >> I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking into >> it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and >> in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction >> motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness >> connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a >> manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred >> hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the >> chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly >> enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY >> good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? >> >> I am now rebuidling the circuit board with glass filled epoxy (West >> Brothers + microsphere filler) with a mold/retaining dam made from >> silicone rubber. >> >> Also back when I was at UNH when I was young and foolish a HP 117A was >> my introduction to precision timing as Jim Williams in Demerrit Hall's >> maintained the frequency standard which consisted of a HP117A and a HP >> 5245M frequency counter along with a decade worth of recorder output. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > From brooke at pacific.net Thu Sep 11 13:02:56 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:02:56 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: References: <8CAE1519C68FA8E-B64-4A25@webmail-dd07.sysops.aol.com> <8CAE234CDC34838-1E58-48D@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48C94F40.3070805@pacific.net> Hi Scott: If I remember correctly there are two BNC antenna connectors on the A1 box, one with DC power for the antenna and another without DC. Also there's a fuse on the DC powered connector which could be pulled. http://www.prc68.com/I/117A.shtml An advantage of the loop is that instead of aiming it at WWVB you can rotate it to null out the closest RTTY station. Something I've thought about, but not done is to make time decoder based on a PIC micro controller. Remember the 117 is only a frequency comparator. There is a free PC program that you can feed the audio output from a receiver and it decodes WWVB time code. The same company has another program that decodes the Northern California DX beacons (as controls the receiver frequency). Note the beacons transmit in GPS controlled time slots with stepping RF power levels. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Scott McGrath wrote: > Hi Russ, > > Yes i did and it was a marvelous hack in the best sense of the word, > It was fascinating to see how this actually worked, it of course is no > longer necessary and I have removed it in favor of protecting the A1 > assembly fully within the chassis. > > My 117A is a Prefix 438A unit and my manual covers 525A and below. > I'm still debating whether to use a AMRAD antenna and disconnect the > +35 from the antenna (by installing a jumper block for reversability) > or find the proper 10509A loop antenna for authenticity. I have > been offered a amp assembly for the antenna by another member so I > have thought about fabricating the actual loop assembly but I do not > have dimensions for the loop itself which looks to be center tapped > which also would the tube which bisects the loop. > > I bought this a decade ago and was only able to find a manual recently > always kept it because I knew how rare this unit is. Right now it's > been recapped (electrolytics) and I have replaced the chassis mount > transistors BTW a NTE121 will replace the TO-3 pass transistor if that > has given up the ghost. RIght now I am going through the power > supply board A9 and replacing the resistors many of which have changed > value after physically rebuilding the PCB which had a 1/2" hole burned > in the area of R2-4. One of the challenges of recapping is that > electrolytics are now much smaller for equivalent ratings so a lot of > teflon sleeving has been used to prevent potential short circuits. > > So much fun to be had with this stuff! > > - Regards Scott > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM, wrote: >> Scott, >> >> Good luck on the rare 117A. >> >> Did you get my e-mail with attachment containing the pages of the manual for >> your updated unit? >> >> Russ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott McGrath >> To: wa3frp at aol.com >> Sent: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:42 pm >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration >> >> >> >> Hi, Ross >> >> Please - It would be interesting to see how this worked. From the >> date codes on the components my 117A was built in late 1964 - date >> codes on conversion module date from 1968. As Tom noted it is a >> interesting historical footnote from use of the atomic timescale to >> UTC timescale with leap seconds. And now due to the influence of >> embedded device manfacturers who want 'cheap n cheerful' firmware we >> are now discussing doing away with leap seconds. Interesting how >> the pendulum of historical trends oscillates. >> >> Right now the 117A is having all the electrolytics replaced while I am >> reconstructing the PS module trace by trace >> >> - Scott >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 7:43 AM, wrote: >>> Scott, >>> I had a chance to look at my HP 117A manual last night and saw that >> your >>> configuration is described there. If it is not described in the HP >> 117A >>> manual that you have, would you like me to copy those pages and send >> them to >>> you as an attachment? >>> Russ >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scott McGrath >>> To: time-nuts at febo.com >>> Sent: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 3:50 pm >>> Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration >>> >>> >>> >>> All, >>> >>> I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking into >>> it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and >>> in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction >>> motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness >>> connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a >>> manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred >>> hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the >>> chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly >>> enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY >>> good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? >>> >>> I am now rebuidling the circuit board with glass filled epoxy (West >>> Brothers + microsphere filler) with a mold/retaining dam made from >>> silicone rubber. >>> >>> Also back when I was at UNH when I was young and foolish a HP 117A was >>> my introduction to precision timing as Jim Williams in Demerrit Hall's >>> maintained the frequency standard which consisted of a HP117A and a HP >>> 5245M frequency counter along with a decade worth of recorder output. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Sep 11 13:59:31 2008 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:59:31 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration References: <8CAE1519C68FA8E-B64-4A25@webmail-dd07.sysops.aol.com> <8CAE234CDC34838-1E58-48D@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com> <48C94F40.3070805@pacific.net> Message-ID: <001c01c91438$2810bf00$0500a8c0@pc52> > Something I've thought about, but not done is to make time decoder based on a > PIC micro controller. Remember the 117 is only a frequency comparator. Brooke, Check the back of your 117A. There's a signal level output so with clear enough reception you should be able to extract the 1 baud subcode and decode UTC in the same way as other raw WWVB receivers. > There is a free PC program that you can feed the audio output from a receiver > and it decodes WWVB time code. The same company has another program that > decodes the Northern California DX beacons (as controls the receiver > frequency). Note the beacons transmit in GPS controlled time slots with > stepping RF power levels. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Sep 11 14:03:28 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:03:28 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Which GPS receiver? In-Reply-To: Message from Reeves Paul of "Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:15:31 BST." <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> Message-ID: <20080911180329.8DBDEBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Does anybody know why U Blox charges an extra $150 for the timing version of their evaluation kits? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From dtmspam at techemail.com Thu Sep 11 15:05:20 2008 From: dtmspam at techemail.com (David Medin) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:05:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit Message-ID: <20080911120520.256B642C@resin17.mta.everyone.net> I'm glad to hear that Tom will replace the unit for you. I've worked with Asian multivoltage switching supplies for years, and what the manufacturer usually won't tell you is that their primary output (usually the +5) of a multivoltage PS needs at least a 10 - 20 percent (or so) minimum load in order for the whole unit to meet spec and be stable. I would never leave one of these operating unloaded for any length of time... The result is usually what you saw, or a secondary voltage that goes way out of spec and burns out the attached device or itself. I usually just tag an appropriate 5 watt cement resistor on this particular output just to be safe, even though I contribute 2 more watts to global warming. This is not just an issue with Asian supplies, either. One of my favorite domestic supplies (from Red Rocket/EOS) has such a restraint, only they tell you about it explicitly in the specification. I have one of my EOS units going on my Tbolt, as I hear I will be a proud owner soon. The EOS units are whisper-quiet and are about the size of a RAZR cell phone. -Dave Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:06:34 -0400 From: ernieperes at aol.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. To: time-nuts at febo.com Message-ID: <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE at FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed My Trimble GPSDO just arrive but I have a problem with the POWER Supply Unit. After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if all voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. Opening the box found Q1 transistor / BUZ78 / blown and seems to me that it was a short around R1, R2 and C11 area, namely the two resistor had short to each-other...../ factory bad installation??? / Anybody having a circuit diagram ????? I am trying to repair..... Please help, I just do not want to throw the unit to the garbage can. _____________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com From ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com Thu Sep 11 15:05:24 2008 From: ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com (Ron Smith) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:05:24 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 Message-ID: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW> Hi everyone, I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in before - I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? Is it useful to a beginner time-nut? Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are there on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. Anyone in NW England? 73 Ron, G3SVW Manchester, NW UK From scmcgrath at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 20:15:51 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:15:51 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: <8CAE259AC825D0E-83C-1BC0@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAE1519C68FA8E-B64-4A25@webmail-dd07.sysops.aol.com> <8CAE234CDC34838-1E58-48D@WEBMAIL-MC07.sysops.aol.com> <8CAE259AC825D0E-83C-1BC0@webmail-de08.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Russ I would like the dimensions please also if possible how the loop antenna is wound internally, I will take this to my local fabrication shop so they can make the structural components. After I have the estimate I will pass it back to the group along with contact information for the fab shop so others can build copies. Problem with the 10509's on ebay is the people have them up with BIN's for insane money the last one I saw was in AS-IS condition was $695 I may be crazy but I am not stupid! 73 - Scott N1JIN On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:13 PM, wrote: > Hi Scott, > > I enjoy your passion for restoring old equipment. BTW, I have a 10509A > here. Let me know if you would like the dimensions. I don't see too many > 10509A around but occasionally one comes up on eBay. While recapping, also > check to see if any reistors look damaged. In my rescent restoration of the > GR Frequency Standard, I replaced a number of carbon resistors that had > changed value over time, most likely from abuse. > > Enjoy! Let me know how I can assist. > > Russ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott McGrath > To: wa3frp at aol.com; time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:32 am > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration > > > > Hi Russ, > > Yes i did and it was a marvelous hack in the best sense of the word, > It was fascinating to see how this actually worked, it of course is no > longer necessary and I have removed it in favor of protecting the A1 > assembly fully within the chassis. > > My 117A is a Prefix 438A unit and my manual covers 525A and below. > I'm still debating whether to use a AMRAD antenna and disconnect the > +35 from the antenna (by installing a jumper block for reversability) > or find the proper 10509A loop antenna for authenticity. I have > been offered a amp assembly for the antenna by another member so I > have thought about fabricating the actual loop assembly but I do not > have dimensions for the loop itself which looks to be center tapped > which also would the tube which bisects the loop. > > I bought this a decade ago and was only able to find a manual recently > always kept it because I knew how rare this unit is. Right now it's > been recapped (electrolytics) and I have replaced the chassis mount > transistors BTW a NTE121 will replace the TO-3 pass transistor if that > has given up the ghost. RIght now I am going through the power > supply board A9 and replacing the resistors many of which have changed > value after physically rebuilding the PCB which had a 1/2" hole burned > in the area of R2-4. One of the challenges of recapping is that > electrolytics are now much smaller for equivalent ratings so a lot of > teflon sleeving has been used to prevent potential short circuits. > > So much fun to be had with this stuff! > > - Regards Scott > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:50 AM, wrote: >> >> Scott, >> >> Good luck on the rare 117A. >> >> Did you get my e-mail with attachment containing the pages of the > > manual for >> >> your updated unit? >> >> Russ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scott McGrath >> To: wa3frp at aol.com >> Sent: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:42 pm >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration >> >> >> >> Hi, Ross >> >> Please - It would be interesting to see how this worked. From the >> date codes on the components my 117A was built in late 1964 - date >> codes on conversion module date from 1968. As Tom noted it is a >> interesting historical footnote from use of the atomic timescale to >> UTC timescale with leap seconds. And now due to the influence of >> embedded device manfacturers who want 'cheap n cheerful' firmware we >> are now discussing doing away with leap seconds. Interesting how >> the pendulum of historical trends oscillates. >> >> Right now the 117A is having all the electrolytics replaced while I am >> reconstructing the PS module trace by trace >> >> - Scott >> >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 7:43 AM, wrote: >>> >>> Scott, >>> I had a chance to look at my HP 117A manual last night and saw that >> >> your >>> >>> configuration is described there. If it is not described in the HP >> >> 117A >>> >>> manual that you have, would you like me to copy those pages and send >> >> them to >>> >>> you as an attachment? >>> Russ >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Scott McGrath >>> To: time-nuts at febo.com >>> Sent: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 3:50 pm >>> Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration >>> >>> >>> >>> All, >>> >>> I purchased a 117A at a hamfest years ago and am just now looking > > into >>> >>> it. This 117A is a bit different from the ones in the manual and >>> in pictures up on the web as it incorporates a telechron reduction >>> motor installed in fthe area in front of the TRF module harness >>> connector. Had not looked at this unit much as I did not have a >>> manual which I now have as the power supply board (A9) had a charred >>> hole blown in it. The TRF module does not insert fully into the >>> chassis due to the presence of the clockwork module. Interestingly >>> enough the clockwork looks like HP installed it or someone did a VERY >>> good job. Does anyone know what this clockwork is intended for? >>> >>> I am now rebuidling the circuit board with glass filled epoxy (West >>> Brothers + microsphere filler) with a mold/retaining dam made from >>> silicone rubber. >>> >>> Also back when I was at UNH when I was young and foolish a HP 117A > > was >>> >>> my introduction to precision timing as Jim Williams in Demerrit > > Hall's >>> >>> maintained the frequency standard which consisted of a HP117A and a > > HP >>> >>> 5245M frequency counter along with a decade worth of recorder output. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> > > From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Sep 11 20:23:53 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:23:53 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit In-Reply-To: Message from "David Medin" of "Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:05:20 PDT." <20080911120520.256B642C@resin17.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20080912002354.A0B1BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I've worked with Asian multivoltage switching supplies for years, and > what the manufacturer usually won't tell you is that their primary > output (usually the +5) of a multivoltage PS needs at least a 10 - 20 > percent (or so) minimum load in order for the whole unit to meet spec > and be stable. I would never leave one of these operating unloaded for > any length of time... The result is usually what you saw, or a > secondary voltage that goes way out of spec and burns out the attached > device or itself. Is smoke common? I'd expect the safety agencies would not like that. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From didier at cox.net Thu Sep 11 20:36:58 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:36:58 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit In-Reply-To: <20080912002354.A0B1BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: Message from "David Medin" of "Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:05:20 PDT."<20080911120520.256B642C@resin17.mta.everyone.net> <20080912002354.A0B1BBCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: As long as the power supply is not advertised as an end item, problems like that are not within the scope of safety agencies. Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 7:24 PM > To: dtmspam at techemail.com; Discussion of precise time and > frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit > > > Is smoke common? I'd expect the safety agencies would not like that. > > From exray at bellsouth.net Thu Sep 11 21:33:50 2008 From: exray at bellsouth.net (exray at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:33:50 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 In-Reply-To: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW> Message-ID: <091220080133.25768.48C9C6FE0008CD94000064A822228869349B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF970E9D980A@att.net> TRAK made some of the neatest equipment. Unfortunately, the will deny all knowlege of any equipment not in their current inventory! Good luck. :) -------------- Original message from "Ron Smith" : -------------- > Hi everyone, > I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in before - > I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. > So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. > It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? Is it useful to a > beginner time-nut? > Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are there > on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. > Anyone in NW England? > > 73 > > > Ron, G3SVW > Manchester, NW UK > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From stanw1le at verizon.net Thu Sep 11 22:22:57 2008 From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan, W1LE) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:22:57 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C9D281.2020803@verizon.net> Hello Martin, I have a Austron 2100 "T" Loran-C timing receiver,but I am looking for a more modern one like the SRS FS700. Any pointers as to where I could find one ? Nothing on Ebay for many months. Thanks Stan, W1LE Cape Cod Martin Fischer wrote: > Hello Community, > > currently I am trying to revive a Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C > Frequency Standard > (http://www.thinksrs.com/products/FS700.htm > ) .It shows an error > message "Pattern Memory Test FAIL". > > Unfortunately the O & S manual is missing the schematic circuit > diagrams. > Should anybody own the schematics of this instrument or know if they are > available for download somewhere? > > Any hint will be highly appreciated. > > Regards > Martin > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From ch at murgatroid.com Thu Sep 11 23:09:46 2008 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 20:09:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002701c91485$02fb7690$08f263b0$@com> Brooke Clarke wrote: > The same company has another program > that decodes the Northern California DX beacons > (as controls the receiver frequency). Note the > beacons transmit in GPS controlled time slots > with stepping RF power levels. The whha...at beacons? Is there a web page Where I can learn more? -ch From brooke at pacific.net Fri Sep 12 00:55:30 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 21:55:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Odd HP 117A configuration In-Reply-To: <002701c91485$02fb7690$08f263b0$@com> References: <002701c91485$02fb7690$08f263b0$@com> Message-ID: <48C9F642.3080300@pacific.net> Hi Chsristopher: The NCDXF page for the beacons is at: http://www.ncdxf.org/Beacons.html Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam christopher hoover wrote: > Brooke Clarke wrote: >> The same company has another program >> that decodes the Northern California DX beacons >> (as controls the receiver frequency). Note the >> beacons transmit in GPS controlled time slots >> with stepping RF power levels. > > The whha...at beacons? Is there a web page > Where I can learn more? > > -ch > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk Fri Sep 12 02:55:08 2008 From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (David Ackrill) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:55:08 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. In-Reply-To: <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <48CA124C.1020000@tiscali.co.uk> ernieperes at aol.com wrote: > After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if all > voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run > on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a > big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. On my unit the PSU was not working when it arrived. The quickest solution, for me, was to go to a local electronics shop and buy a new unit. Dave From ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net Fri Sep 12 04:27:30 2008 From: ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net (Ian Sheffield) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:27:30 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 References: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW> Message-ID: <007201c914b1$674bd640$0300000a@cookie> At least one in South East Scotland! Cheers, Ian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Smith" To: Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > Hi everyone, > > I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in > before - I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. > So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. > > It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned > on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, > performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? Is > it useful to a beginner time-nut? > > Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are > there on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. > Anyone in NW England? > > 73 > > > Ron, G3SVW > Manchester, NW UK > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 07:03 From ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com Fri Sep 12 05:49:09 2008 From: ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com (Ron Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:49:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 References: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW> <007201c914b1$674bd640$0300000a@cookie> Message-ID: <007d01c914bc$ce8a5830$998afea9@G3SVW> Hello Ian, Whereabouts are you? I travel to that area every month or so, around Dunbar and Berwick. Ron ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian Sheffield" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > At least one in South East Scotland! > > Cheers, > > Ian. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron Smith" > To: > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:05 PM > Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > > >> Hi everyone, >> >> I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in >> before - I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. >> So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. >> >> It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned >> on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, >> performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? Is >> it useful to a beginner time-nut? >> >> Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are >> there on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. >> Anyone in NW England? >> >> 73 >> >> >> Ron, G3SVW >> Manchester, NW UK >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 > 07:03 > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net Fri Sep 12 08:20:01 2008 From: ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net (Ian Sheffield) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:20:01 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 References: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW><007201c914b1$674bd640$0300000a@cookie> <007d01c914bc$ce8a5830$998afea9@G3SVW> Message-ID: <001d01c914d1$e24171f0$0300000a@cookie> Hi Ron, Between Haddington and Dunbar. I am away for a couple of weeks, but e-mail me on ian.sheffield1 at tesco,net and we can arrange a meet if you wish. Ian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Smith" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > Hello Ian, > > Whereabouts are you? I travel to that area every month or so, around > Dunbar > and Berwick. > > Ron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Sheffield" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:27 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > > >> At least one in South East Scotland! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ian. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron Smith" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:05 PM >> Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 >> >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in >>> before - I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. >>> So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. >>> >>> It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned >>> on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, >>> performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? >>> Is >>> it useful to a beginner time-nut? >>> >>> Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are >>> there on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. >>> Anyone in NW England? >>> >>> 73 >>> >>> >>> Ron, G3SVW >>> Manchester, NW UK >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: >> 9/11/2008 >> 07:03 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1667 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 18:55 From ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net Fri Sep 12 08:31:41 2008 From: ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net (Ian Sheffield) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:31:41 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 References: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW><007201c914b1$674bd640$0300000a@cookie> <007d01c914bc$ce8a5830$998afea9@G3SVW> Message-ID: <004401c914d3$83c94330$0300000a@cookie> Hi Ron, Between Haddington and Dunbar. I am away for a couple of weeks, but e-mail me on ian.sheffield1 at tesco,net and we can arrange a meet if you wish. Ian. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Smith" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 10:49 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > Hello Ian, > > Whereabouts are you? I travel to that area every month or so, around > Dunbar > and Berwick. > > Ron > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ian Sheffield" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:27 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 > > >> At least one in South East Scotland! >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ian. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Ron Smith" >> To: >> Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2008 8:05 PM >> Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 >> >> >>> Hi everyone, >>> >>> I've been reading the traffic for months now, but never put anything in >>> before - I'm not working at the high level most of you people are. >>> So this is my first mail and it's a call for information and advice. >>> >>> It relates to equipment TRAK 8810, which I don't recall seeing mentioned >>> on the group. Can anyone tell me about this gear please - its functions, >>> performance, reliability, origins, years in service, value, et cetera? >>> Is >>> it useful to a beginner time-nut? >>> >>> Clint (VK3CSJ) raised an interesting question - how many subscribers are >>> there on "time-nuts"? There must be a lot judging from the traffic. >>> Anyone in NW England? >>> >>> 73 >>> >>> >>> Ron, G3SVW >>> Manchester, NW UK >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.20/1666 - Release Date: >> 9/11/2008 >> 07:03 >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1667 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 18:55 From ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net Fri Sep 12 08:32:56 2008 From: ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net (Ian Sheffield) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:32:56 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] TRAK 8810 References: <006c01c91441$597ca320$998afea9@G3SVW><007201c914b1$674bd640$0300000a@cookie><007d01c914bc$ce8a5830$998afea9@G3SVW> <001d01c914d1$e24171f0$0300000a@cookie> Message-ID: <005601c914d3$b08486a0$0300000a@cookie> Sorry for the double posting folks, Ian. From martin.fischer at ericsson.com Fri Sep 12 09:09:55 2008 From: martin.fischer at ericsson.com (Martin Fischer) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:09:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Research FS700 Loran-C Frequency Standard Message-ID: Hello Stan, I am sorry but I?ve got absolutely no idea where to find a used FS700. On the advent of GPS frequency standards they will have become kind of obsolete, I guess. You might want to look at http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/fs700/ and try to bid on his one. Or visit http://www.prc68.com/I/timefreq.shtml . Regards Martin From ernieperes at aol.com Fri Sep 12 09:41:15 2008 From: ernieperes at aol.com (ernieperes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:41:15 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power supply unit. In-Reply-To: <48CA124C.1020000@tiscali.co.uk> References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com> <48CA124C.1020000@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <8CAE2F45C7C0FDE-1FDC-1A4D@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> Gents, Sorry if my mail give the impression that I am complaining about the blown PSU, it is because my English is not as good as it should be..... just wanted some help to repair the unit.....and in the mean time I have already installed the GPSDO into a nice small box with a home built PSU and now looks like a table-top "Frequency Standard" instrument NEW SUBJECT... When I use the GPSDO direct from an active antenna after power interruption the unit recover relative soon,..... but when the GPSDO used from a antenna distribution box and this way the GPSDO sensing the antenna is OPEN, then after power interruption the unit can not recover.......???????----------even after a long period...... Anybody had the same experience?????????? Thanks and regards, Ernie. -----Original Message----- From: David Ackrill To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 8:55 am Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. ernieperes at aol.com wrote: > After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if all > voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run > on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a > big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. On my unit the PSU was not working when it arrived. The quickest solution, for me, was to go to a local electronics shop and buy a new unit. Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net Fri Sep 12 10:03:40 2008 From: ian.sheffield1 at tesco.net (Ian Sheffield) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:03:40 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power supply unit./antenna sensing References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com><48CA124C.1020000@tiscali.co.uk> <8CAE2F45C7C0FDE-1FDC-1A4D@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <008a01c914e0$60567b40$0300000a@cookie> I have noticed on my unit that with one particular active antenna (a small magnetic base unit for vehicles), the flag often cycles between normal and open. It could be that some of the newer, smaller antennas use less current that the older ones and the antenna current sensing on the Thunderbolt can't cope. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power supply unit. > Gents, > > Sorry if my mail give the impression that I am complaining about the > blown PSU, it is because my English is not as good as it should be..... > just wanted some help to repair the unit.....and in the mean time I > have already installed the GPSDO into a nice small box with a home > built PSU and now looks like a table-top "Frequency Standard" instrument > > NEW SUBJECT... > > When I use the GPSDO direct from an active antenna after power > interruption the unit recover relative soon,..... > but when the GPSDO used from a antenna distribution box and this way > the GPSDO sensing the antenna is OPEN, then after power interruption > the unit can not recover.......???????----------even after a long > period...... > Anybody had the same experience?????????? > > > Thanks and regards, > Ernie. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Ackrill > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Sent: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 8:55 am > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. > > > > ernieperes at aol.com wrote: > >> After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if > all >> voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run >> on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a >> big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. > > On my unit the PSU was not working when it arrived. > > The quickest solution, for me, was to go to a local electronics shop > and > buy a new unit. > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1667 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 18:55 From j-shank at comcast.net Fri Sep 12 10:18:44 2008 From: j-shank at comcast.net (jshank) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:18:44 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor References: <001f01c8e54c$48a5cdc0$0a00a8c0@d400> Message-ID: Didier, Any chance of the GPS Monitor which you are developing being available as a kit? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Didier Juges" To: Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor >I have uploaded version 0.0.8. > > Alarms (if any) are decoded and displayed in succession on the second line > of the display, alternated with the Disciplining Status. > The archive has been fixed, there was a problem with v004. If you > downloaded > it and had problems, I am sorry... > > Check the Wiki for details: > http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=precision_timing:gps_monitor > > Didier KO4BB > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From kirbybq at bellsouth.net Fri Sep 12 16:43:40 2008 From: kirbybq at bellsouth.net (Brian Kirby) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:43:40 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power supply unit./antenna sensing In-Reply-To: <008a01c914e0$60567b40$0300000a@cookie> References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935BB5@temps153538.tms-ltd.com> <8CAE20D3454F71A-844-24CE@FWM-M02.sysops.aol.com><48CA124C.1020000@tiscali.co.uk> <8CAE2F45C7C0FDE-1FDC-1A4D@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> <008a01c914e0$60567b40$0300000a@cookie> Message-ID: <48CAD47C.2030001@bellsouth.net> You may consider putting a resistor in a coax connector and a tee in the antenna circuit, so you may pull a little more current. You should be able to measure the current with your meter that the antenna draws, and then size the resistor to pull the difference you need. Brian - KD4FM Ian Sheffield wrote: > I have noticed on my unit that with one particular active antenna (a small > magnetic base unit for vehicles), the flag often cycles between normal and > open. > > It could be that some of the newer, smaller antennas use less current that > the older ones and the antenna current sensing on the Thunderbolt can't > cope. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 2:41 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power supply unit. > > >> Gents, >> >> Sorry if my mail give the impression that I am complaining about the >> blown PSU, it is because my English is not as good as it should be..... >> just wanted some help to repair the unit.....and in the mean time I >> have already installed the GPSDO into a nice small box with a home >> built PSU and now looks like a table-top "Frequency Standard" instrument >> >> NEW SUBJECT... >> >> When I use the GPSDO direct from an active antenna after power >> interruption the unit recover relative soon,..... >> but when the GPSDO used from a antenna distribution box and this way >> the GPSDO sensing the antenna is OPEN, then after power interruption >> the unit can not recover.......???????----------even after a long >> period...... >> Anybody had the same experience?????????? >> >> >> Thanks and regards, >> Ernie. >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: David Ackrill >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Sent: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 8:55 am >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble GPSDO power suply unit. >> >> >> >> ernieperes at aol.com wrote: >> >>> After connecting all wires to the Trimble plug and made a check if >> all >>> voltage is correct and left the PS unit to run >>> on the table without load/connecting to the GPSDO, about 15min got a >>> big bang and the Power Supply Unit blow-up. >> On my unit the PSU was not working when it arrived. >> >> The quickest solution, for me, was to go to a local electronics shop >> and >> buy a new unit. >> >> Dave >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1667 - Release Date: 9/11/2008 > 18:55 > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wa9msd at ggnet.net Fri Sep 12 18:25:35 2008 From: wa9msd at ggnet.net (Joseph Grossbauer) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 17:25:35 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1A74609FEA93451EBA4A61AC9EE558D4@joesworkstation> I second this question. This looks like a very cool project. Didier, if you would like some help/support or just some heaving lifting I would be happy to volunteer. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of jshank Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 09:19 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor Didier, Any chance of the GPS Monitor which you are developing being available as a kit? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Didier Juges" < > To: Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor >I have uploaded version 0.0.8. > > Alarms (if any) are decoded and displayed in succession on the second line > of the display, alternated with the Disciplining Status. > The archive has been fixed, there was a problem with v004. If you > downloaded > it and had problems, I am sorry... > > Check the Wiki for details: > http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=precision_timing:gps_monitor > > Didier KO4BB > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From gbeech at fairfaxmedia.com.au Fri Sep 12 18:45:53 2008 From: gbeech at fairfaxmedia.com.au (Gary Beech) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:45:53 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt GPS Message-ID: <27F39C43D6515B43B0129FFEF5FEFAC601636BCF@EXCHDP1.ffx.jfh.com.au> Hi All I subscribed to Time-nuts as I would like to be placed on the list to obtain a Trimble Thunderbolt GPS. I can not find the link on the TAPR website. Please advise what is necessary for me to obtain one. Thank you 73 Gary VK2KYP. The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or attached files. From didier at cox.net Fri Sep 12 21:36:25 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:36:25 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor In-Reply-To: <1A74609FEA93451EBA4A61AC9EE558D4@joesworkstation> References: <1A74609FEA93451EBA4A61AC9EE558D4@joesworkstation> Message-ID: <004401c91541$238f9640$0b00a8c0@d400> Some time ago John Ackerman had offered to have someone within TAPR develop a PWB for this, but several emails to him about that went unanswered, so I assume the answer is no. Since I have another project under way at the moment that will require a very similar PWB, I intend to have that PWB done in such a way that both projects (and probably others) can be supported, at which time Gerber files (as a minimum) or pre-built PWBs will be available, in the Thanksgiving time frame or sooner. I am not sure I am into selling kits, but if there are enough people interested, it may be worthwhile. Otherwise, it takes about one hour to assemble the few parts on a Radio Shack proto board (see prototype #2 on that page: http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/GPSMonitor/), so if you are in a hurry, or on a tight budget, that's the way to go. Didier KO4BB -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Grossbauer [mailto:wa9msd at ggnet.net] Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 5:26 PM To: 'jshank'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'; didier at cox.net Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor I second this question. This looks like a very cool project. Didier, if you would like some help/support or just some heaving lifting I would be happy to volunteer. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of jshank Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 09:19 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor Didier, Any chance of the GPS Monitor which you are developing being available as a kit? Jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: "Didier Juges" < > To: Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 8:55 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor >I have uploaded version 0.0.8. > > Alarms (if any) are decoded and displayed in succession on the second line > of the display, alternated with the Disciplining Status. > The archive has been fixed, there was a problem with v004. If you > downloaded > it and had problems, I am sorry... > > Check the Wiki for details: > http://www.ko4bb.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=precision_timing:gps_monitor > > Didier KO4BB > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1668 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 6:56 AM From kc0vsj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 13 12:30:10 2008 From: kc0vsj at yahoo.com (Tom Clifton) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:30:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] What Price Precision? Message-ID: <699298.84912.qm@web37007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> For those who are ARRL members, they now have archives of QST on-line. I stumbled across a two part series in the Sept and Oct 1952 QST ehtitled: What Price Precision? The economics of Frequency Standards By George X.M. Collier W0EG The article highlights Crystal Charactgeristics,Hammarlund FS135C Standard, Millen 90501 standards in part 1 then goes into building your own in part 2. The ordinary ham could attain 1x10-7 on a 100kc standard! A delightful look back.... From dtmspam at techemail.com Sat Sep 13 16:24:41 2008 From: dtmspam at techemail.com (David Medin) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:24:41 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) Message-ID: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> When I get my Tbolt, I was planning to program a PIC18F6722-based board I have already designed and produced, into the role of passthru/monitor to indicate lock. What other features would everyone want to see on a Tbolt monitor board relative to features/displays? What kit price range would you consider workable? I already have some similar RS-232 supervisory stuff programmed in Assembler for the board similar to what a Tbolt supervisor would probably have. The board supports discrete LEDs as well as the usual parallel LCD character display--currently a 20X4 matrix available from numerous sources like Crystalfontz and others. The board is based on +5 volts. If there was enough interest in a board, I probably would port the code to a smaller 18FxxKxx-series processor, as the price of the 6722 has gone through the roof and about 90 percent of the code space is unused. The K-series in SOIC-28 is also much easier to hand solder! I'd just have to work out a negative LCD bias supply as the K runs on 3.6 volts maximum. I wouldn't mind releasing the source code I've written too, if that made things more customizable. The Assembler is free from Microchip. I'm a bit busy at the moment, but could tend to customizations in November/December (depends somewhat on when my Tbolt arrives!). Scale of production greatly affects the cost, tho. -Dave Medin __________________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com From dtmspam at techemail.com Sat Sep 13 16:28:03 2008 From: dtmspam at techemail.com (David Medin) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:28:03 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? Message-ID: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how much did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay antennas and the like crossing my fingers that the bias voltage and current will work, but I'd rather get some advice from those of you that have actually done the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed for permanent outdoor or marine installation. Thanks! Dave Medin __________________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com From d.seiter at comcast.net Sat Sep 13 17:49:28 2008 From: d.seiter at comcast.net (d.seiter at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:49:28 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? Message-ID: <091320082149.12697.48CC356800028CDC0000319922007613949D0A9B070A9CD20B@comcast.net> I'm not sure about the manufacturer of mine, the label just has a serial number, made in usa, and part number 25045-10. It came with my tbolt when I got it from ebay a few years ago. The whole set including the ps and a bunch of coax was $199 (buy it now) -Dave -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "David Medin" > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how much > did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay antennas and the like > crossing my fingers that the bias voltage and current will work, but > I'd rather get some advice from those of you that have actually done > the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed for permanent > outdoor or marine installation. > > Thanks! > > Dave Medin > __________________________________________________________________ > > Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit > http://www.TechEmail.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From max at maxsmusicplace.com Sat Sep 13 19:35:37 2008 From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:35:37 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files References: Message-ID: <006401c915f9$6d859200$6401a8c0@BACKROOM> > Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those > that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station > Snip. I finally got around to listening to these. It sets me to wondering how long it will be before the U S government decides it can save money by taking WWV off the air. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Palfreyman" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:55 PM Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files > Folks, > > Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those > that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station > > BR_002 is the regular announcement that occurred every 15 minutes that you > will all know and love. > BR_006 is the final couple of minutes before the death of VNG. If it > doesn't > send a shiver down your spine then I'm sorry you cannot call yourself a > "time-nut". > > :-) > > Regards, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Sep 13 22:25:21 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:25:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> Hi Dave, Personally I question the value of such an item. As hobbyist we all start immediately planning such a project just because that is our nature. The Tbolt monitor program provided by Trimble, while lacking in some regards, is adequate for determining the functional condition. If it is working then most people are going to ignore it as its job is just to sit there and do its job. Very mundane stuff in the aggregate. Probably the biggest thing missing in the Trimble software is a pictorial view of satellite placement. Unless an expensive graphics LCD where planned, it would be out of the range of a simple PIC type project. As most all who use a Tbolt would have a PC laying around, it reduces the need for such a project. That said, were such directions taken seriously, I think it should be a group effort. This way those who seriously want to produce such a project can collectively arrive at a single meaningful product. This project would be a good one to funnel through TAPR in a kit form. While not a member of TAPR, I can see their usefulness as a focal point for furthering interest in such projects and it provides a larger audience besides us Timenuts. It seems that projects like the TAC2 and such have died out at TAPR though the GPS/time arena still is a high interest. Probably because the TAC2 idea was made into a commercial product. Also because of Motorola dropping their efforts at making GPS receivers at a time when it was unclear if anything was going to be available to replace them. Perhaps, from a view of the bigger picture, we can generate a renewed interest to satisfy several needs at once. Currently, only three useful items I can think of provide an interface between the GPS signal and one's local house standard. The REFLOCK, Brooks Shera and a third party's lesser idea of something similar to the Shera controller. Of the three, I think the REFLOCK was designed for a different purpose in mind. Of the remaining two, The Shera controller is the more serious and complete design, particularly considering its design concepts went into a commercial product. The point of all this is a new person getting into the GPS locked house standard game is faced with several issues. Sure they buy a Tbolt (or something similar), but then they have to figure out how to use it. While the Tbolt provides a direct 10MHz output, there are a host of reasons why you would want to buffer its existence. Having a house standard sure looks pretty sitting there until you realize the damn thing is not doing anything other then sucking power. Except for an extremely small number of people (count like 3 or 4 {no disrespect intended}) who have the means to stock a major museum or have a fetish for mechanical clocks, the normal person is going to want their house standard to do something useful for them. So, we have the problem of either distribution or comparison. To distribute clean signals in different directions is not so easy, although, currently, a product is available at TAPR for this function. Distributing a signal has its limits and does not satisfy every situation. That leaves us with the need to compare lesser devices with the house standard. This is where the system breaks down. The one thing that is most plentiful is the oscilloscope, however, having your eyes glued to scope for any length of time is quite tedious. Such items as the TRACOR 527 Frequency Difference Meter are available, but they are no different then using the oscilloscope in that the measurement is instantaneous, thus providing no history. Besides things like the 527 are expensive and not plentiful. A phase discriminator along with a chart machine could be used for long term monitoring. However, the need for lots of hard to find (sometimes) chart paper is a serious distraction. To wrap it up, here is what I see as a useful project: 1. It should contain at least two independent Shera type controller circuits for locking two separate independent house standards against the GPS signal. 2. Additionally, it should contain at least a single independent DVM display to select and watch the two [item 1] DAC values plus the ability to feed information of those separate actions to a PC. 3. It should contain a third Shera type circuit to use as a comparison channel between either of the two mentioned house standards so that other lesser, uncontrolled devices can be calibrated. 4. In Lieu of item 3 a similar arrangement to the TRACOR 527 as the third comparison channel. 5. In reference to items 3 and 4, the onboard controller should provide some readout for the calibration function. Preferably, include an analog meter and the means for the onboard controller to provide some limited means of giving an averaging over time readout, plus the ability to provide this data to a PC. 6. As we have lots of TIME (pun intended) running around this board, consider the ability to provide time stamping. 7. Provide the ability to read several temperature devices. Something as simple as the DALLAS One-wire devices as probes would work. 8. This project could be implemented with several CPUs, particularly if using the Shera circuits, without too much trouble. 9. To make things easier as a kit, design it using thru-hole devices, particularly the CPUs. (Partly said in jest) 10. Do not forget to include an onboard negative supply system so a single positive supply is all that is needed. 11. Regarding the data to a PC, provide it as ASCII data that is comma delimited so graphing could be accomplished in an EXCEL type spreadsheet program. 12. Almost forgot. The ability to communicate with the Tbolt and perhaps the M12M type receiver. 13. Finally, PLEASE design for lighted LCDs or, better yet, using bright Vacuum Fluorescent displays. I think such a project would be worthwhile. It could be done as a kit in such a way as to be implemented in stages if one does not need or want the full capability. For that matter it could be done as a motherboard with daughter cards to implement, for example, the three Shera circuits. This is my synopsis, right, wrong or in between. I hope I have not offended anyone with such a lengthy diatribe. Bill....WB6BNQ From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Sep 13 22:42:03 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 19:42:03 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor CLARIFICATION References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <48CC79FB.CEF7EB32@cox.net> To clarify item 3 Item 3 came across unclear after reading it again. What was meant was a third channel to compare either of the two mentioned House Standards to a third device without interrupting the two primary control channels referred to in item 1. Bill....WB6BNQ From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Sep 13 23:47:45 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 15:47:45 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) In-Reply-To: <48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> <48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> Message-ID: <48CC8961.3090703@xtra.co.nz> WB6BNQ wrote: > Hi Dave, > > Personally I question the value of such an item. As hobbyist we all > start immediately planning such a project just because that is our > nature. The Tbolt monitor program provided by Trimble, while lacking > in some regards, is adequate for determining the functional condition. > If it is working then most people are going to ignore it as its job is > just to sit there and do its job. Very mundane stuff in the aggregate. > > Probably the biggest thing missing in the Trimble software is a > pictorial view of satellite placement. Unless an expensive graphics > LCD where planned, it would be out of the range of a simple PIC type > project. As most all who use a Tbolt would have a PC laying around, it > reduces the need for such a project. > > That said, were such directions taken seriously, I think it should be a > group effort. This way those who seriously want to produce such a > project can collectively arrive at a single meaningful product. This > project would be a good one to funnel through TAPR in a kit form. > While not a member of TAPR, I can see their usefulness as a focal point > for furthering interest in such projects and it provides a larger > audience besides us Timenuts. > > It seems that projects like the TAC2 and such have died out at TAPR > though the GPS/time arena still is a high interest. Probably because > the TAC2 idea was made into a commercial product. Also because of > Motorola dropping their efforts at making GPS receivers at a time when > it was unclear if anything was going to be available to replace them. > > Perhaps, from a view of the bigger picture, we can generate a renewed > interest to satisfy several needs at once. Currently, only three > useful items I can think of provide an interface between the GPS signal > and one's local house standard. The REFLOCK, Brooks Shera and a third > party's lesser idea of something similar to the Shera controller. Of > the three, I think the REFLOCK was designed for a different purpose in > mind. Of the remaining two, The Shera controller is the more serious > and complete design, particularly considering its design concepts went > into a commercial product. > > The point of all this is a new person getting into the GPS locked house > standard game is faced with several issues. Sure they buy a Tbolt (or > something similar), but then they have to figure out how to use it. > While the Tbolt provides a direct 10MHz output, there are a host of > reasons why you would want to buffer its existence. > > Having a house standard sure looks pretty sitting there until you > realize the damn thing is not doing anything other then sucking power. > Except for an extremely small number of people (count like 3 or 4 {no > disrespect intended}) who have the means to stock a major museum or > have a fetish for mechanical clocks, the normal person is going to want > their house standard to do something useful for them. So, we have the > problem of either distribution or comparison. > > To distribute clean signals in different directions is not so easy, > although, currently, a product is available at TAPR for this function. > Distributing a signal has its limits and does not satisfy every > situation. > > That leaves us with the need to compare lesser devices with the house > standard. This is where the system breaks down. The one thing that is > most plentiful is the oscilloscope, however, having your eyes glued to > scope for any length of time is quite tedious. Such items as the > TRACOR 527 Frequency Difference Meter are available, but they are no > different then using the oscilloscope in that the measurement is > instantaneous, thus providing no history. Besides things like the 527 > are expensive and not plentiful. A phase discriminator along with a > chart machine could be used for long term monitoring. However, the > need for lots of hard to find (sometimes) chart paper is a serious > distraction. > > To wrap it up, here is what I see as a useful project: > > 1. It should contain at least two independent Shera type controller > circuits for locking two separate independent house standards > against the GPS signal. > > Can do much better than the Shera controller with even less parts. > 2. Additionally, it should contain at least a single independent > DVM display to select and watch the two [item 1] DAC values plus the > ability to feed information of those separate actions to a PC. > > If one sprinkles inexpensive high resolution sigma delta ADCs as and where required then the difficulties associated with an analog multiplexer can be avoided. The display CPU only need gather data from the ADC's measuring the voltage of interest. > 3. It should contain a third Shera type circuit to use as a > comparison channel between either of the two mentioned house > standards so that other lesser, uncontrolled devices can be > calibrated. > Poor choice it really doesnt have enough range or resolution to be particularly useful as a phase comparator. You can do much better with a classical linear phase comparator connected to a high resolution sigma delta ADC. If the nonlinearity at the end of the range is a problem just use 2 such comparators driven driven 90 degrees out of phase. If a programmable divider is used on each comparator input then the device becomes quite flexible. If implemented using an FPGA or similar device internal crosstalk will limit the effective resolution to around 5E-11/Tau at best. If external flipflops are used to resynchronise the divider outputs the effective resolution will be improved significantly. The easiest way to build the linear phase comparator is to use an AD9901. With some ingenuity the ADC reference can be made to track the AD9901 gain significantly reducing thermal drift. A temperature compensated linear output could also be provided. > 4. In Lieu of item 3 a similar arrangement to the TRACOR 527 as the > third comparison channel. > > 5. In reference to items 3 and 4, the onboard controller should > provide some readout for the calibration function. Preferably, > include an analog meter and the means for the onboard controller to > provide some limited means of giving an averaging over time readout, > plus the ability to provide this data to a PC. > > 6. As we have lots of TIME (pun intended) running around this > board, consider the ability to provide time stamping. > > A timestamping resolution of around 100ps or so can be achieved by using an FPGA using the vernier delay line technique. Higher resolution can easily be achieved by either A) Using a dual simultaneous sampling ADC to sample a quadrature pair of sinewaves and then using a processor to calculate the corresponding phase angle and combine this with a sampled count (counter clocked by the same source as the sinewave quadrature pair). A resolution of 10ps or better is easily achieved and if the timestamp rate is low enough almost any processor can do the calculations. An FPGA or CPLD is the simplest way of implementing the dual phase synchroniser and counter. However one ADC is required per input channel. Suitable ADCs are relatively inexpensive but are only available in SMT packages. B) Low pass filter the signal to be timestamped and sample the low pass filtered signal with a high speed ADC clocked at 100MHz or so. The relevant threshold crossings are then calculated from the ADC samples using windowed Whittaker Shannon interpolation. However you will need to use a DSP or similar very fast processor to process the samples in real time. Alternatively if an FPGA is used to collect a sufficient number of ADC samples straddling the transition of interest and the signal transition frequency is sufficiently low a much slower processor can be used, however 32 bit arithmetic may not suffice. 64 bit arithmetic may be required to avoid calculation roundoff noise degrading performance. Other techniques are possible but tend to require a lot more parts and calibration can be much more difficult.. > 7. Provide the ability to read several temperature devices. > Something as simple as the DALLAS One-wire devices as probes would > work. > > The capability of using higher accuracy, higher resolution temperature sensors such as RTDs and thermistors may also be useful. > 8. This project could be implemented with several CPUs, > particularly if using the Shera circuits, without too much trouble. > > Much easier in fact to use several CPUs dedicated to particular functions as the instrument can then be more modular and extendable. > 9. To make things easier as a kit, design it using thru-hole > devices, particularly the CPUs. (Partly said in jest) > > Difficult to do if CPLDs or FPGAs are used, although some lower complexity (64 macrocell) CPLDs are available on DIP compatible daughter boards. > 10. Do not forget to include an onboard negative supply system so a > single positive supply is all that is needed. > > 11. Regarding the data to a PC, provide it as ASCII data that is > comma delimited so graphing could be accomplished in an EXCEL type > spreadsheet program. > > Some care should be taken to avoid tying the instrument to any particular operating system or software analysis package. > 12. Almost forgot. The ability to communicate with the Tbolt and > perhaps the M12M type receiver. > > Preferably using an isolated RS232 port to avoid ground loops. > 13. Finally, PLEASE design for lighted LCDs or, better yet, using > bright Vacuum Fluorescent displays. > > I think such a project would be worthwhile. It could be done as a kit > in such a way as to be implemented in stages if one does not need or > want the full capability. For that matter it could be done as a > motherboard with daughter cards to implement, for example, the three > Shera circuits. > > This is my synopsis, right, wrong or in between. I hope I have not > offended anyone with such a lengthy diatribe. > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > Bill If one is going to do all this in one instrument then care should be taken to avoid inadvertent coupling via low frequency ground loops. RF transformers on all RF inputs can be very effective in minimising such problems. Isolating the instrument from the PC by using either LAN or isolated serial link(RS232/RS485 etc) for communications would also be useful. USB is less useful in that it can be somewhat more expensive to isolate satisfactorily. If one requires even higher resolution when comparing standards then a dual (or N channel) mixer system is easily constructed using carefully designed modular parts. Isolation amplifiers, mixer preamps, zero crossing detectors etc are required. However the zero crossing detectors can be replaced by a high resolution sound card. For low frequency (< 100kHz) beat signals a capacitive mixer IF port termination is best. With some substitutions the same modules can be rearranged to create a phase noise measurement system. Bruce From wb6bnq at cox.net Sun Sep 14 02:10:42 2008 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:10:42 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> <48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> <48CC8961.3090703@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48CCAAE2.AB839E0A@cox.net> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Bill > > If one is going to do all this in one instrument then care should be > taken to avoid inadvertent coupling via low frequency ground loops. > RF transformers on all RF inputs can be very effective in minimising > such problems. > Isolating the instrument from the PC by using either LAN or isolated > serial link(RS232/RS485 etc) for communications would also be useful. > USB is less useful in that it can be somewhat more expensive to isolate > satisfactorily. > > If one requires even higher resolution when comparing standards then a > dual (or N channel) mixer system is easily constructed using carefully > designed modular parts. > Isolation amplifiers, mixer preamps, zero crossing detectors etc are > required. However the zero crossing detectors can be replaced by a high > resolution sound card. > For low frequency (< 100kHz) beat signals a capacitive mixer IF port > termination is best. > With some substitutions the same modules can be rearranged to create a > phase noise measurement system. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. Hi Bruce, Well I think you missed my point ! As I mentioned there are a few who have the ability to deal with the H and Cs devices. However, I was really targeting the low end of the spectrum. I referred to them as the "normal guy" but perhaps I should have said the "casual guy" meaning those who have a passing interest but are not going to run out and buy a Cs or even a Rb but would be happy with a GPS disciplined crystal with 3 to 4 times the accuracy they really need. This person may have a less than stellar counter or two laying around who would want to calibrate them against his GPSDO every now and then. Or may want to monitor and calibrate their HF rig for a ARRL frequency contest or some such. Even those with a Rb may not need more then what i suggested. I think the Shera controller with some upgrades is probably more then good enough for the targeted level to discipline a crystal house standard or two. Not that I am saying something else could not be used. Particularly for the third channel which would be intended for non disciplined purposes. I should have made reference to the TRACOR 895 for that third position. I was also thinking at the kit level. If things were done at the "thru-hole" level maybe more people would be interested in building such a kit. Usually the people left these days that tinker around (i.e., quasi hobbyist) are older with failing eye sight, a little more jitter in their step (if you know what I mean) and not interested in fooling around with those damn surface mount items {such as myself}. Sticking to "thru-hole" means those putting the kit together do not have to figure out how to handle the surface mount stuff for those who do not or cannot deal with it. The largest problem is just coming up with a chart recorder. I have a couple of them and cannot find paper for them. Standard office calculator/cash register paper is expensive enough, chart paper with holes on the side and a specific grid pattern is even worse. So, the way I see it, there are a number of people (Timenuts and Amateur radio operators via TAPR) who would probably be interested if it is not too involved. To handle those who are in the upper category, perhaps a second project aimed solely at them would also be appropriate. I am not dismissing your commentary, just noticing that it got way too involved too quickly. Some of the stuff you were suggesting would involved some really serious work with programming not only the CPLDs or FPGAs (for which I have no knowledge) but much more effort dealing with the ADCs and such. Well seems that way to me anyhow. Mainly I was really trying to get people to see that it should be a group effort. Otherwise you have 3 or 4 people duplicating the wheel so to speak. If those 3 or 4 could channel their efforts into one project perhaps we would end up with the best out of all 3 or 4. regards, Bill....WB6BNQ From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Sep 14 02:53:41 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 23:53:41 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: Message from "David Medin" of "Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:28:03 PDT." <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20080914065342.1FE57BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how > much did you pay for it? I'm using one of the inexpensive antennas that TAPR was selling. http://www.tapr.org/gps_ant1a.html It isn't heavily weatherproofed, but mine is working well-enough inside. Consider mounting them in a weatherproof box, perhaps made from recycled food containers, Or, get several now, mount one outside somehow, and just replace it when it dies. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From jim77742 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 03:57:39 2008 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:57:39 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files In-Reply-To: <006401c915f9$6d859200$6401a8c0@BACKROOM> References: <006401c915f9$6d859200$6401a8c0@BACKROOM> Message-ID: Well let me be the devil's advocate and also put the cat amongst the pigeons here... With GPS, what actually is the use of a SW time signal? Jim 2008/9/14 Max Robinson > > Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those > > that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: > > > > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station > > > Snip. > > > I finally got around to listening to these. It sets me to wondering how > long it will be before the U S government decides it can save money by > taking WWV off the air. > > Regards. > > Max. K 4 O D S. > > Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com > > Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net > Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net > Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com > > To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, > funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Palfreyman" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:55 PM > Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files > > > > Folks, > > > > Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those > > that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: > > > > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station > > > > BR_002 is the regular announcement that occurred every 15 minutes that > you > > will all know and love. > > BR_006 is the final couple of minutes before the death of VNG. If it > > doesn't > > send a shiver down your spine then I'm sorry you cannot call yourself a > > "time-nut". > > > > :-) > > > > Regards, > > > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From brooke at pacific.net Sun Sep 14 04:01:17 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:01:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files In-Reply-To: References: <006401c915f9$6d859200$6401a8c0@BACKROOM> Message-ID: <48CCC4CD.1040901@pacific.net> Hi Jim: The HF and LF time signals are the only broadcast time signals that have daylight savings time bits. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Well let me be the devil's advocate and also put the cat amongst the pigeons > here... > > With GPS, what actually is the use of a SW time signal? > > Jim > > > 2008/9/14 Max Robinson > >>> Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those >>> that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: >>> >>> >> http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station >> Snip. >> >> >> I finally got around to listening to these. It sets me to wondering how >> long it will be before the U S government decides it can save money by >> taking WWV off the air. >> >> Regards. >> >> Max. K 4 O D S. >> >> Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com >> >> Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net >> Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net >> Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com >> >> To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, >> funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jim Palfreyman" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:55 PM >> Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files >> >> >>> Folks, >>> >>> Didier has kindly given me some web space to hold these files. For those >>> that emailed me and others who are interested, please visit: >>> >>> >> http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=5)_GPS_Timing/VNG_Time_Station >>> BR_002 is the regular announcement that occurred every 15 minutes that >> you >>> will all know and love. >>> BR_006 is the final couple of minutes before the death of VNG. If it >>> doesn't >>> send a shiver down your spine then I'm sorry you cannot call yourself a >>> "time-nut". >>> >>> :-) >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Jim >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 14 07:54:44 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:54:44 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) In-Reply-To: <48CCAAE2.AB839E0A@cox.net> References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net> <48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> <48CC8961.3090703@xtra.co.nz> <48CCAAE2.AB839E0A@cox.net> Message-ID: <48CCFB84.2040109@xtra.co.nz> Bill WB6BNQ wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > Well I think you missed my point ! As I mentioned there are a few who have the > ability to deal with the H and Cs devices. > > However, I was really targeting the low end of the spectrum. I referred to them > as the "normal guy" but perhaps I should have said the "casual guy" meaning those > who have a passing interest but are not going to run out and buy a Cs or even a > Rb but would be happy with a GPS disciplined crystal with 3 to 4 times the > accuracy they really need. This person may have a less than stellar counter or > two laying around who would want to calibrate them against his GPSDO every now > and then. Or may want to monitor and calibrate their HF rig for a ARRL frequency > contest or some such. Even those with a Rb may not need more then what i > suggested. > > I think the Shera controller with some upgrades is probably more then good enough > for the targeted level to discipline a crystal house standard or two. Not that I > am saying something else could not be used. Particularly for the third channel > which would be intended for non disciplined purposes. I should have made > reference to the TRACOR 895 for that third position. > A single flipflop plus a micro or 2 (1 if one uses an actual physical DAC instead of a software implementation of a high resolution sigma delta DAC) is all you really need to achieve close to the best performance possible from whatever timing receiver and OCXO that are selected. The flipflop resolution automatically adjusts to suit the system noise level. A 74AC74 plus a 74C86 or equivalent in a DIP package together with an opamp or 2 plus a high resolution ADC can be used to make a high resolution phase comparator if one must use DIP packages. However an AD9901 (20 pin PLCC) in a through hole socket is perhaps more convenient given that it has all the required logic and signal conditioning to implement a phase comparator all it lacks is an opamp or 2 plus a high resolution ADC. Analog Devices do have some high resolution (24 bit) sigma delta ADCs available in DIP packages. > I was also thinking at the kit level. If things were done at the "thru-hole" > level maybe more people would be interested in building such a kit. Usually the > people left these days that tinker around (i.e., quasi hobbyist) are older with > failing eye sight, a little more jitter in their step (if you know what I mean) > and not interested in fooling around with those damn surface mount items {such as > myself}. Sticking to "thru-hole" means those putting the kit together do not > have to figure out how to handle the surface mount stuff for those who do not or > cannot deal with it. > > The Digilent CPLD's on DIP compatible daughter cards make it practical to implement circuits of intermediate complexity whilst remaining through hole component compatible. Simple stuff like programmable dividers that don't require a large number of ZdIP packages, synhronisers and time stamp counters spring to mind. > The largest problem is just coming up with a chart recorder. I have a couple of > them and cannot find paper for them. Standard office calculator/cash register > paper is expensive enough, chart paper with holes on the side and a specific grid > pattern is even worse. > > We have the opposite problem more chart paper and associated recorders than we currently have applications for. > So, the way I see it, there are a number of people (Timenuts and Amateur radio > operators via TAPR) who would probably be interested if it is not too involved. > To handle those who are in the upper category, perhaps a second project aimed > solely at them would also be appropriate. > > Yes I agree that a higher end system would be useful. A modular approach would allow great flexibility. The core component perhaps being a set (of 4?) high resolution ADCs like the AD7760. This could be used for phase noise measurement or for measuring ADEV etc in a dual mixer setup. > I am not dismissing your commentary, just noticing that it got way too involved > too quickly. Some of the stuff you were suggesting would involved some really > serious work with programming not only the CPLDs or FPGAs (for which I have no > knowledge) but much more effort dealing with the ADCs and such. Well seems that > way to me anyhow. > > I was attempting to provoke someone into producing some specifications for time stamp resolution etc. 100ns time stamp resolution is easily done using a counter a synchroniser and a time stamp register - easily fitted within a DIP compatible CPLD difficult (but not quite impossible if an appropriate micro is selected - eg some PICs can sample an internal counter on an external signal transition) with DIP packages or most micros. With a higher frequency clock resolution to 10ns or so is also possible. If single shot sub nanosecond resolution is required other techniques are more practical than using multi GHz clocks. > Mainly I was really trying to get people to see that it should be a group > effort. Otherwise you have 3 or 4 people duplicating the wheel so to speak. If > those 3 or 4 could channel their efforts into one project perhaps we would end up > with the best out of all 3 or 4. > > regards, > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > I agree duplication of effort is indeed wasteful. Devising the best design possible within package, budget and other constraints is worthwhile. Bruce From didier at cox.net Sun Sep 14 09:40:50 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:40:50 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) In-Reply-To: <48CC8961.3090703@xtra.co.nz> References: <20080913132441.48ECB9F3@resin09.mta.everyone.net><48CC7611.5058F3FC@cox.net> <48CC8961.3090703@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <063B3607EB134256A2FA785460794196@didierhp> > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 10:48 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Monitor (Didier Juges) > > > 7. Provide the ability to read several temperature devices. > > Something as simple as the DALLAS One-wire devices as > > probes would work. > > The capability of using higher accuracy, higher resolution > temperature sensors such as RTDs and thermistors may also be useful. Regarding temperature sensing, Using easily obtained NTC thermistors and the built-in 12 bit ADC of a Silabs processor, I was able to obtain stable temperature readings with about 0.02 degree C resolution at 25 degree without any digital filtering or analog processing (other than decoupling capacitors), by directly feeding the voltage from a voltage divider composed of the thermistor and a precision 10k resistor to the ADC, and using the processor's built-in voltage reference to drive the divider. A small amount of dithering (or simply by averaging several samples and using noise as the dither) will easily give 0.01 degree C resolution if you like to see all the digit values used. I did not bother to calculate the actual precision, but a rough check shows the main absolute error to be the thermistor itself, all other errors can be made negligible compared to it by using a precision resistor and clean layout. The basic unadjusted accuracy is a fraction of a degree, sufficient for most applications. This with a thermistor that costs about $1.00 at Digikey and is as big as a 1/8 Watt resistor... The software does the voltage/temperature conversion using math functions (log particularly), so make sure your compiler supports it. Alternately, you could use lookup tables, but that becomes impractical for anything greater than 8 bits of resolution. Due to the non-linearity of the circuit and that of the NTC thermistor itself, resolution of that particular circuit degrades away from 25 degree C to about 0.08 degree C at -35 and at +85 degree C. Different choices of thermistor/resistor values can optimize the resolution at the temperature of interest, but make sure you take the dissipation in the thermistor itself into consideration, as it will create a non-linear offset. Any type of analog linearization (in front of the ADC) over a broader range of temperatures will cost a lot of money because you will need an exponentially greater number of precision components. If greater resolution is needed, a 16 bit ADC would be the best solution in terms of cost and hassle. Didier KO4BB From didier at cox.net Sun Sep 14 10:01:59 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:01:59 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> References: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: I have tried three models the original Trimble Bullet, the HP 58532A and several pucks, including a nice Trimble mag-mount unit. Two of the pucks are designed for marine use, with a decent waterproof case and mounting, but they are in an all plastic case. There have no part number that I could see, I need to look closer to see if there is a manufacturer's mark. They were obtained on eBay from a long forgotten vendor... I am not sure how Trimble rates the mag-mount antenna, but it probably was not designed for permanent outdoor installation, even though it is heavy and looks very well made. They were compared by plugging them into my main Thunderbolt receiver and checking the time to complete self-survey. Because of the constantly changing constellation, it is difficult to compare antennas otherwise over a short time. I felt the self-survey was a useful indicator even though I am perfectly aware it is just that. Self survey takes several hours (2 to 8 in my experience, depending on the combination of antenna and receiver). It seems my main Thunderbolt receiver (original OEM design with built-in supply) is more sensitive than the two Group-buy Thunderbolts I also have, as it does complete self-survey faster and seems to report more satellites, even though I have not yet attempted to log that information over a period of time to give an objective result. Another project for the winter.... That could also be due to a different internal configuration of the receivers, even though I have not seen any difference in look-up angle settings and such. All antennas were compared while inside the house, in the upstairs ham shack/office/lab, so pretty close under the shingles covered roof and facing south. The Bullet I have is less sensitive than the others. I receive fewer satellites with it and it takes much longer for the self-survey to complete, I do not use it. I got it with my main Thunderbolt receiver and it was not new when I got it. All other antennas were bought new. The HP and the pucks seems to give about the same signal strength and take about as long to complete the self survey. The HP will go outside when I have a chance to install it, it's still way too hot over here to do anything outside that you don't HAVE to do... I bought the HP on eBay, new, for $50 with shipping, compared to about $25 each for the pucks, including shipping costs. Unless you are satisfied with an indoor antenna (in which case I would say: "What are you doing on time-nuts?"), I can't justify saving $25 by using a puck compared to the wonderful piece of design and technology that the HP 58532A is. By the pound, you get much more with the HP :-) Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David Medin > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:28 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? > > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, > and how much did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay > antennas and the like crossing my fingers that the bias > voltage and current will work, but I'd rather get some > advice from those of you that have actually done > the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed > for permanent outdoor or marine installation. > > Thanks! > > Dave Medin From didier at cox.net Sun Sep 14 10:04:23 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 09:04:23 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: References: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <8A818D9045DF4748BD0DA18095FBF217@didierhp> The first sentence was confusing, replace with: "I have tried several models, the original Trimble Bullet... " Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier Juges > Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 9:02 AM > To: dtmspam at techemail.com; 'Discussion of precise time and > frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? > > I have tried three models the original Trimble Bullet, the HP > 58532A and several pucks, including a nice Trimble mag-mount > unit. Two of the pucks are designed for marine use, with a > decent waterproof case and mounting, but they are in an all > plastic case. There have no part number that I could see, I > need to look closer to see if there is a manufacturer's mark. > They were obtained on eBay from a long forgotten vendor... > > I am not sure how Trimble rates the mag-mount antenna, but it > probably was not designed for permanent outdoor installation, > even though it is heavy and looks very well made. > > They were compared by plugging them into my main Thunderbolt > receiver and checking the time to complete self-survey. > Because of the constantly changing constellation, it is > difficult to compare antennas otherwise over a short time. I > felt the self-survey was a useful indicator even though I am > perfectly aware it is just that. Self survey takes several > hours (2 to 8 in my experience, depending on the combination > of antenna and receiver). > > It seems my main Thunderbolt receiver (original OEM design > with built-in > supply) is more sensitive than the two Group-buy Thunderbolts > I also have, as it does complete self-survey faster and seems > to report more satellites, even though I have not yet > attempted to log that information over a period of time to > give an objective result. Another project for the winter.... > That could also be due to a different internal configuration > of the receivers, even though I have not seen any difference > in look-up angle settings and such. > > All antennas were compared while inside the house, in the > upstairs ham shack/office/lab, so pretty close under the > shingles covered roof and facing south. > > The Bullet I have is less sensitive than the others. I > receive fewer satellites with it and it takes much longer for > the self-survey to complete, I do not use it. I got it with > my main Thunderbolt receiver and it was not new when I got > it. All other antennas were bought new. > > The HP and the pucks seems to give about the same signal > strength and take about as long to complete the self survey. > The HP will go outside when I have a chance to install it, > it's still way too hot over here to do anything outside that > you don't HAVE to do... > > I bought the HP on eBay, new, for $50 with shipping, compared > to about $25 each for the pucks, including shipping costs. > Unless you are satisfied with an indoor antenna (in which > case I would say: "What are you doing on time-nuts?"), I > can't justify saving $25 by using a puck compared to the > wonderful piece of design and technology that the HP 58532A > is. By the pound, you get much more with the HP :-) > > Didier KO4BB > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David Medin > > Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:28 PM > > To: time-nuts at febo.com > > Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? > > > > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, > > and how much did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay > > antennas and the like crossing my fingers that the bias > > voltage and current will work, but I'd rather get some > > advice from those of you that have actually done > > the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed > > for permanent outdoor or marine installation. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Dave Medin > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Sep 14 10:34:10 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:34:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/14/08 12:57 AM, "Jim Palfreyman" wrote: > Well let me be the devil's advocate and also put the cat amongst the pigeons > here... > > With GPS, what actually is the use of a SW time signal? > > Jim --- Some off the cuff, before that first cup of coffee, answers: WWV provides more than a time signal.. There?s propagation bulletins, storm warnings, etc. Yes, there are alternate solutions for these things, sat phones, etc.. However, there's something very resilient about a system which relies only on me having a single piece of gear (an HF receiver) and for which the infrastructure is fairly limited, which provides a variety of capabilities. The GPS receiver provides accurate nav and time, but doesn't do weather. The WEFAX off the satellite does weather, but doesn't do nav and time. The satphone does comm and low rate data, but not nav, time, or weather. I can receive WWV indoors. (so, when it's raining outside, I can still time my cookie baking with atomic precision.) Maybe, though, I *am* a codger, and you're right, if one takes a dispassionate look at the "system requirements" there is no need for HF time signals that can't be met in other ways. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Sep 14 10:35:46 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:35:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] VNG sound files In-Reply-To: <48CCC4CD.1040901@pacific.net> Message-ID: On 9/14/08 1:01 AM, "Brooke Clarke" wrote: > Hi Jim: > > The HF and LF time signals are the only broadcast time signals that have > daylight savings time bits. So, maybe if we do away with radio time signals, we can do away with DST? Cool deal! Jim Lux From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sun Sep 14 11:07:04 2008 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:07:04 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <9CBD6C679F914D0CA5EF4CD4D38EDDC6@S0028384766> Dave, I have used a Symmetricom 58532A timing antenna ($69 on eBay as I recall, N connector), a Synergy Systems timing Antenna ($49 on eBay as I recall, TNC connector) (I think these are the same antenna with different connectors), an after market 'Garmin GA 29' marine antenna (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=9718208656&ssPageName=AD ME:B:EF:US:1123), and an AeroAntenna Technology Inc. aircraft GPS antenna, P/N AT 575-9, originally used with a NorthStar (now Canadian Marconi Company) M2 or M3 aircraft GPS system. Jeppesen, a major supplier of database updates for aircraft navigation systems, will stop supporting the NorthStar units in April of 2009 and I suspect these might be coming on the market cheap. I wonder if they could be converted for timing applications? I was looking for antennas designed for 'outdoor use', relatively inexpensive (and therefore disposable if struck by lightning, destroyed by falling limbs, etc.), and useful with long runs of coax. I also use them with the TBolt and a HP Z3816A. Both units put out 5 volts to power the antennas and both have 'alarms' for open or shorted antennas. All antennas worked well with the TBolt with no alarms. All antennas work well with the Z3816A but the two timing antennas show 'alarm' having to do with too little current draw. This can be corrected by adding some 'DC' resistance in parallel to the antenna line. I have not had an opportunity to experiment with this yet to make sure the RF impedance is high enough that it does not interfere with signal strength though I did connect a 680 ohm (as I recall) resistor with the wires wound into a 1/8 inch form to create 'coils or chokes' in series with the resistor, to a BNC male to banana jack adapter plugged into a BNC 'Tee' in the antenna line that eliminated the 'alarm' and still allowed the unit to receive. I particularly like the 'Garmin' antenna because of the high gain and relatively inexpensive price. Unfortunately, it has an RG58 pigtail to a BNC connector requiring an adapter to connect to 'RG8 like' or other coax and it has a 1 inch 'marine thread' mount which requires some effort to find or a trip to the boating store, but they seem like a small price to pay. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David Medin Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2008 3:28 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how much did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay antennas and the like crossing my fingers that the bias voltage and current will work, but I'd rather get some advice from those of you that have actually done the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed for permanent outdoor or marine installation. Thanks! Dave Medin __________________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From wa2lbi at frontiernet.net Sun Sep 14 11:37:35 2008 From: wa2lbi at frontiernet.net (Ken Winterling) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:37:35 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> References: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <608ed23c0809140837j5655c2d4wd942b1ac0036af0e@mail.gmail.com> Dave, I use a Motorola Oncore Timing2000. At the time it cost $39, new, on eBay. Ken, WA2LBI On Sat, Sep 13, 2008 at 4:28 PM, David Medin wrote: > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how much > did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay antennas and the like > crossing my fingers that the bias voltage and current will work, but > I'd rather get some advice from those of you that have actually done > the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed for permanent > outdoor or marine installation. > > Thanks! > > Dave Medin > __________________________________________________________________ > > Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit > http://www.TechEmail.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Sun Sep 14 12:21:00 2008 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Bj=F6rn?= Gabrielsson) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 18:21:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] What outdoor antenna for Tbolt? In-Reply-To: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> References: <20080913132803.48ECB9B5@resin09.mta.everyone.net> Message-ID: <1221409260.24478.11.camel@bg-desktop> Mine works fine with an Aeroantenna AT575-90. Perhaps a premium solution compared to traditional timing antennas. -- Bj?rn On Sat, 2008-09-13 at 13:28 -0700, David Medin wrote: > What outdoor bullet antenna are people using for their Tbolts > (manufacturer and model number), where did you find it, and how much > did you pay for it? I'm looking at several eBay antennas and the like > crossing my fingers that the bias voltage and current will work, but > I'd rather get some advice from those of you that have actually done > the deed. I'm only really interested in antennas designed for permanent > outdoor or marine installation. > > Thanks! > > Dave Medin > __________________________________________________________________ > > Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit > http://www.TechEmail.com > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From mark.amos at toast.net Sun Sep 14 12:47:16 2008 From: mark.amos at toast.net (Mark Amos) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:47:16 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt monitor Message-ID: <8196770b20f64122aa431c5af220c601.mark.amos@toast.net> Bill, I'm one of those casual users - though I'm getting close to graduating to Rb (time-nuttiness is habit forming...) I've built a couple of the Shera GPSDOs and have added on some handy little features (I drive a 2 line LCD display, and format the output into a UTC/Local clock and buffered 10MHZ output to use as an external clock for an HP 5328 and my FlexRadio master oscillator.) I recently got a surplus Thunderbolt and use a TAPR distribution amp to buffer the 10Mhz signal and it seems to drive all this stuff quite well too. It's nice to have a couple of these, as you say, and it's fun to watch two of them driving an X-Y scope (if you enjoy things like watching paint dry, sundial's ticking off the hours, grass growing, etc.) I found the project to be fun and educational. I did all the software development in PIC assembler and made a couple of changes to Shera's code. (There seems to be fewer of the "my micro is better than yours" religious wars on this list than some others.) FYI, Brooks Shera is also a very helpful fellow and seemed pleasant in the email exchanges we had. I drive a couple of cheap, but good-looking clocks who's motors I hacked to use the output from a 1PPS output (buffered and divided into +/- signals to replace the clock circuitry). It's fun to invite people to listen to the clocks ticking in synchrony - all run from different types of precision clocks (GPSDO, WWV, etc.) This list seems to have more high-end folks on it and that might be why your suggestion didn't get a more positive response. Also, every time someone mentions Shera, there seem to be plenty of "there are lots better ways to do it" folks offering tons of interesting ideas. As far as I know, none of these have ever been turned into into a great PCB project (as with the Shera design.) If you're game, and can actually integrate some of the "I know a much better way" suggestions, you should have a fun and ultimately very useful project! In any case, good luck on your design. I'm sure you'll continue to get some great advice from this group. Mark "An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it." -- Mohandas Gandhi From dtmspam at techemail.com Sun Sep 14 14:41:54 2008 From: dtmspam at techemail.com (David Medin) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:41:54 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thanks for antenna advice Message-ID: <20080914114154.256427FE@resin18.mta.everyone.net> I've gotten an overwhelming amount of antenna pointers from my Tbolt question--thanks to all! I've got one prospect from someone in the group, as well as a couple Trimble bullets and the Symmetricom in my sights at eBay. If the Tbolt gods smile on me, I may actually receive more than one eventually--one for my home lab and one for my work lab. My interest in the TBolt is basically for a 10 MHz standard for locking or gating test equipment. Right before I started looking for a disciplined frequency standard, I got burned by a cheap frequency counter timebase that had drifted, and determined then that I'm going to excise this demon from my lab once and for all. My interest differs from being a true Time Nut, as my needs are not for absolute time with so many parts per billion accuracy but for 10.000000 MHz with reasonable phase noise, although I learn a lot by listening to the discussions here. I'm a systems engineer with aviation and military design experience, much in RF up to a couple hundred MHz (although the US Navy's CASS GPS L1/L2 simulator is based on my design, and some work with the Agilent synthesizer crew in "Rodent Park" in the late 80's). Still, I like Smith charts about as much as a kid loves broccoli. I keep a full surface mount design and prototying gig at my home with microscope and rework capabilities, where I even venture to do difficult packages. My latest test is the newer Silabs SW/LW receiver chip in an impossible 3mm X 3mm QFN package. I feel for everyone that wants to stay thru-hole, as I see component availability evaporating by the day. My current employer's product line is highly thru-hole, and I have almost a full-time job keeping Purchasing in alternate component sources. I have learned to adapt, and find my stereo microscope my best friend, and an occasional very small dose of propranolol or xanax when the jitters may be a problem (with physician agreement of course). As far as the Tbolt monitor project, my candidate monitoring board would only be for basic status monitoring--that was my intent, so I don't keep a PC tied up to assure our test tech that the standard is "locked" at any given time. My intent was not to create a full GUI, as a PC is a better platform to use IMO. I'd be satisfied with a red/green status indicator. I already have the general purpose RS-232 monitor board from another project which would only need programming to stimulate/monitor the stream from the Tbolt. Still, if there is agreement on a board which offers other functions such as a phase comparator or distribution amp, I'd listen to what the group may want. I do a lot of business with Mini Circuits too...! Thanks to all. Dave __________________________________________________________________ Are you a Techie? Get Your Free Tech Email Address Now! Visit http://www.TechEmail.com From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 21 17:47:27 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:47:27 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Analog Phase comparator Message-ID: <48D6C0EF.6060605@xtra.co.nz> The AD9901KP is available in a side brazed DIP package (at least its listed as a current production device). However Digikey for example, only stock the PLCC version. With 10MHz inputs it should resolve a few tens of picosec of phase difference. With a 10 bit ADC the resolution would be about 200ps. If you need more resolution use a higher resolution ADC. If you need less resolution either use a lower resolution ADC or use prescalers to reduce the AD9901input frequency. To compensate for drift in the AD9901 gain one can 1) Use an ADC with its reference proportional to the AD9901 output stage collector current or 2) Servo the AD9901 output stage collector current to the ADC reference or 3) Measure the AD9901 output stage collector current periodically and use the measurement to correct phase detector output measurements for gain drift. Thus an AD9901 can be used to meet both low end and higher resolution requirements. Biased in ECL mode it has input differential amplifiers suitable for signals down to around a couple of hundred mV pp. Since the AD9901 has a triangular phase detection characteristic a pair of them with one input signal inverted for the the second are required to determine the sign of the phase difference. This is readily accomplished by swapping over the connections to one of the differential input buffers of the second AD9901. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 21 18:22:39 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:22:39 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] D flip flop 1 bit phase detector In-Reply-To: <48D6C0EF.6060605@xtra.co.nz> References: <48D6C0EF.6060605@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48D6C92F.8040908@xtra.co.nz> The D flipflop phase detector where the clock input is driven by the PPS output of a GPS timing receiver, the D input is driven by the OCXO frequency (or a subharmonic thereof), and the filtered Q output is sampled after a sufficient delay to reduce the probability of a metastable output to an insignificant level and used (after filtering) to drive the EFC input of the OCXO to be disciplined can be viewed as akin to a sigma delta loop operating in the phase domain. The intrinsic noise and or quasi sawtooth jitter of the PPS output serve to break up idle tones that may otherwise be present. For correct operation the period of the D input frequency should be greater than the PPS sawtooth dither or intrinsic PPS jitter. The loop will inherently lock the frequency at the D flipflop input to a harmonic of 1Hz, so to ensure the OCXO locks to the desired frequency either the tuning range must be restricted or the OCXO frequency be divided down to a suitable frequency that precludes the OCXO locking to the wrong harmonic. If hardware sawtooth correction is used on an M12M timing receiver the residual PPS jitter drops to a few nanosec and the effective resolution of the D flipflop phase detector adapts to a fraction of that. Bruce From dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de Sun Sep 21 19:01:31 2008 From: dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de (Gerhard Hoffmann) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 01:01:31 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz Message-ID: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> Hi all, after reading "A low noise 100 MHz distribution amplifier for precision metrology" by M. Siccardi, S. R?misch, F. W. Walls, and A. De Marchi (NIST), I have implemented a homebrew version of their design. Circuits, simulation & measurement data are contained in: http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/distri.zip Suggestions & ideas are welcome. 1:1 board layout of the next iteration will be available as .pdf or Gerber. regards, Gerhard, dk4xp From billj at ieee.org Sun Sep 21 21:48:45 2008 From: billj at ieee.org (Bill Janssen) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:48:45 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO In-Reply-To: <9CBD6C679F914D0CA5EF4CD4D38EDDC6@S0028384766> References: <9CBD6C679F914D0CA5EF4CD4D38EDDC6@S0028384766> Message-ID: <48D6F97D.3040800@ieee.org> A friend of mine has two Motorola GPSDO's that I have little experience with. I was checking one of the units using TAC32 and I discovered that it would lock the 5 MHz to GPS ( as compared with my Z3801) when the PC software was running When I stopped the TAC32 it would lose lock. Anyone have a clue what this thing needs to stay locked.. The circuit board has a date of 1992 and it has a label that has TRN7793818 LA081WN. On the back it has connectors for; 48 Volt power Redundancy Control Remote GPS (10 pin) RS232 DCE 1 PPS out 5 MHz out. And an On Line LED Amy place I can get more information? Bill K7NOM From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Sep 21 23:52:19 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:52:19 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> Message-ID: <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > Hi all, > > after reading "A low noise 100 MHz distribution amplifier for precision metrology" > by M. Siccardi, S. R?misch, F. W. Walls, and A. De Marchi (NIST), > I have implemented a homebrew version of their design. > > Circuits, simulation & measurement data are contained in: > > http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/distri.zip > > > Suggestions & ideas are welcome. 1:1 board layout of the next > iteration will be available as .pdf or Gerber. > > > > > regards, Gerhard, dk4xp > > Gerhard RF grounding all three electrodes of the BC860 is not good practice. The BC860 will tend to oscillate when you do this unless the ESR of the 100uF base bypass cap is large enough. Some early microprocessor reset circuits buffered the RC reset timing circuit with an emitter follower which burst into RF oscillation as the RC network charged up. The cure is simple omit the 100uF base bypass cap or at least leave an unbypassed resistor of sufficient value in series with the BC860 base. You can improve the phase noise somewhat if the time constants associated with the BC860 base and collector bypass circuits are reduced so that the BC860 reduces the collector current noise of the BFG196 in the dc - 100kHz or so spectral region. The major problem with this circuit is the large dc current flowing in the transformer primary increases the output distortion significantly. This may make it difficult to extend the frequency response down to 5MHz without using a large custom wound transformer. Minicircuits and similar transformers tend to have a coupling coefficient much greater than 0.99. The purpose of the heavy bypassing of the bases of the BFG31 transistors is to reduce the low frequency noise at the BFG31 bases, this reduces the amplifier close in phase noise. It is also necessary to use some active filtering of the power supply if one is to achieve low close in phase noise. To maximise reverse isolation the individual amplifiers will need to be enclosed in RF shields. Have you measured the reverse isolation? For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. If you are using thick film resistors replace them with thin film resistors if you want low close in phase noise. Have you measured the phase noise? The output device will saturate or at least have increased distortion if the output isnt terminated in 50 ohms whilst the input is driven at +13dBm. Have you measured the input and output VSWR or reflection coefficients? With real transformers the value of the 200 ohm resistor may need to be adjusted to minimise the output reflection coefficient. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Sep 22 01:17:33 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:17:33 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48D72A6D.6000404@xtra.co.nz> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> after reading "A low noise 100 MHz distribution amplifier for precision metrology" >> by M. Siccardi, S. R?misch, F. W. Walls, and A. De Marchi (NIST), >> I have implemented a homebrew version of their design. >> >> Circuits, simulation & measurement data are contained in: >> >> http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/distri.zip >> >> >> Suggestions & ideas are welcome. 1:1 board layout of the next >> iteration will be available as .pdf or Gerber. >> >> >> >> >> regards, Gerhard, dk4xp >> >> >> Gerhard Your layout could be a little cleaner. Use a 47 ohm resistor in series with each of the emitter of Q4 and use an 82 ohm resistor in series with each emitter connection of Q3. More space between Q2, Q3, Q4 would be conducive to higher reverse isolation. The bypass capacitor pads need to have lower inductance connections to the ground plane (several vias in parallel) and the base. A linear RF path would also be useful, the connection from Q2 emitter to Q3 emitter can be a 42 ohm section of microstrip and the connection from Q3 collector to Q4 emitter can be a section of 23 ohm microstrip. Instead of cramming 6 or 7 amplifiers onto a relatively small board, use a larger board and spread them out more leaving space for RF shielding to improve reverse isolation. For 5MHz and 10MHz the other NIST design has significantly higher reverse isolation which can be improved somewhat along with reduced distortion by using a 2 transistor input stage. No dc flows in the input and output transformers reducing distortion. It is also possible to design the output stage so that it wont saturate when driving a high impedance load with a + 13dBm input. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Sep 22 01:23:15 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:23:15 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> Message-ID: <48D72BC3.7040802@xtra.co.nz> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > Hi all, > > after reading "A low noise 100 MHz distribution amplifier for precision metrology" > by M. Siccardi, S. R?misch, F. W. Walls, and A. De Marchi (NIST), > I have implemented a homebrew version of their design. > > Circuits, simulation & measurement data are contained in: > > http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/distri.zip > > > Suggestions & ideas are welcome. 1:1 board layout of the next > iteration will be available as .pdf or Gerber. > > > > > regards, Gerhard, dk4xp > > Gerhard The base bias divider network needs to be improved to ensure that the reverse isolation isn't compromised by the divider network: Spit R2, R7, R9 into 2 equal (330 ohm) resistors connected in series and bypass all the resistor junctions with 100nF X7R or NP0 caps. Bypass the bases of Q3 and Q4 with large value tantalum electrolytics (or plastic capacitors) as well. Bruce From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 17:03:59 2008 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO Message-ID: <984645.56129.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Yes, with the jumpers in place it may not matter if the program is running or not,?place the jumpers on the GPSDO RS232 connector and you may even be able to disconnect the PC end of the cable. ? The other posibilty is some type of watchdog timer that is looking for data from the PC if that is the case a jumper between pins 2 and 3 may help. But that would be someting I tried last. ? Stanley ? PC---GPSDO 1 ------?1 shield 2 ------ 2?Data 3 ------ 3 Data 7 ------ 7 GND ? 4\ 5/ ? ?6\ ?8+ 20/ ? Note pin numbers are 25 pin numbers 9 pin numbers are: ? 9 pin # 25 pin# Acronym Full name Direction Mean 3 2 TxD Transmit Data ?? Transmits bytes out of PC 2 3 RxD Receive Data ?? Receives bytes into PC 7 4 RTS Request To Send ?? RTS/CTS flow control 8 5 CTS Clear To Send ?? RTS/CTS flow control 6 6 DSR Data Set Ready ?? I'm ready to communicate 4 20 DTR Data Terminal Ready ?? I'm ready to communicate 1 8 DCD Data Carrier Detect ?? Modem connected to another 9 22 RI Ring Indicator ?? Telephone line ringing 5 7 SG Signal Ground ? ? ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Janssen To: Stanley Reynolds Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:08:46 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO Stanley Reynolds wrote: Bill, ? Try a jumpers on the RS232 cable 4 to 5 and?6,8,20 together. If you have a RS232 break out box you could put it between the PC and GPSDO to see which levels change when the program is running. ? Stanley N4IQT Thanks but I already have communications between the GPS and the PC. Do you mean that the GPS will think the PC program is running when I disconnect the PC? Haven't tried that. Bill K7NOM ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Janssen To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 8:48:45 PM Subject: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO A friend of mine has two Motorola GPSDO's that I have little? experience with. I was checking one of the units using TAC32 and I discovered that it would lock the 5 MHz to GPS ( as compared with my Z3801) when the PC software was running When I stopped the TAC32 it would lose lock. Anyone have a clue what this thing needs to stay locked.. The circuit board has a date of 1992 and it has a label that has TRN7793818? LA081WN. On the back it has connectors for; 48 Volt power Redundancy Control Remote GPS (10 pin) RS232 DCE 1 PPS out 5 MHz out. And an On Line LED Amy place I can get more information? Bill K7NOM _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Mon Sep 22 13:51:49 2008 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:51:49 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] signal from DirecTV Message-ID: Hello Andrew, unfortunately I am not sure what you mean by Sat signal/code frequency. The local STB PLL generated 27MHz on the video signal will be derived from, and locked to the PCR time stamp inside the MPEG stream of the broadcaster. The broadcaster will likely use an in-house frequency standard to generate this, but it is entirely up to them what they are using. My comment was that this signal was not very stable from what I have seen. If you are interested in the RF frequency of the Sat signal, things get very complicated because the Sat signal is mixed with an LO at the LNB, and so not knowing the LO offset error inside the LNB you would have to hack into the LNB to get the RF frequency of the Sat. This is not as simple as using a 27MHz bandpass: even the IF is in the 800MHz to 2GHz range, and the RF is somewhere above 30GHz I think. bye, Said In a message dated 9/22/2008 09:50:01 Pacific Daylight Time, novick at nist.gov writes: Said, If I measure the output of the STB, am I not just measuring the PLL in the box? You mentioned in your original post that the outputs of different STBs behave differently. If I'm looking for the frequency offset and stability of the satellite signal/code frequency, then it seems like I need to tap off of the signal at the antenna input. Maybe with a 27 MHz bandpass to get rid of the modulation information? Thanks for any thoughts on this. Andrew At 02:30 PM 9/19/2008, you wrote: Hello Andrew, you can find the NXP chips on most any TV capture card for PC's. Philips also used to make and sell large eval boards, but they are only available for customers as far as I know. You may be in luck to find an embedded capture card on mouser etc. that uses one of the NXP chips. Some set-top boxes (such as Directv's older units with CVBS inputs) also may have them built-in. Lastly many of the DVD-based video recorders will have them, especially if these are from Philips/Magnavox. Alternatively, you can probably wire it up fairly quickly (since you are only interested in the LLC signal (27MHz clock output), but I think you would have to have a micro initialize the chip via I2C. Good luck, bye, Said In a message dated 9/19/2008 11:35:09 Pacific Daylight Time, novick at nist.gov writes: Hello! I haven't had a lot of time to look into this...is there a kit board for any of the SAA chips? Did you layout a circuit? Thanks for any help! Andrew Novick NIST novick at nist.gov 303-497-3378 >Message: 2 >Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 17:51:53 EDT >From: SAIDJACK at aol.com >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Pulling a signal from DirecTV >To: time-nuts at febo.com >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > >Yes, the frequency accuracy is not very good. > >We generated 27MHz out of the CVBS coming from a Philips Directv STB. > >To do this, just hook up an NXP video decoder to the CVBS/YC signal (such as >SAA7111, SAA7114 etc) and that will give you a line-locked 27MHz. > > >Significant medium term drift, measurable on 1/10Hz if I remember correctly. >Jumps every so often ( a couple of times per hour) to re-sync. > >Depends also on the algorithms and PLL inside the STB, different vendor's >units all behave differently from what I could see. > >bye, >Said > > >In a message dated 5/9/2008 08:42:08 Pacific Daylight Time, novick at nist.gov >writes: > >Does anyone have experience getting a measurable frequency (in phase with >the broadcast FQ) from a consumer DirecTV box? > ____________________________________ Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? _Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators_ (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1209382257x1200540686/aol?redir=http://www .walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) . **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips and calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Mon Sep 22 12:16:35 2008 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:16:35 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> Hello Everyone, I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to translate it to another platform. Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. Thanks, Ed From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 11:06:27 2008 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO Message-ID: <117630.64037.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Bill, ? Try a jumpers on the RS232 cable 4 to 5 and?6,8,20 together. If you have a RS232 break out box you could put it between the PC and GPSDO to see which levels change when the program is running. ? Stanley N4IQT ----- Original Message ---- From: Bill Janssen To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 8:48:45 PM Subject: [time-nuts] unknown Motorola GPSDO A friend of mine has two Motorola GPSDO's that I have little? experience with. I was checking one of the units using TAC32 and I discovered that it would lock the 5 MHz to GPS ( as compared with my Z3801) when the PC software was running When I stopped the TAC32 it would lose lock. Anyone have a clue what this thing needs to stay locked.. The circuit board has a date of 1992 and it has a label that has TRN7793818? LA081WN. On the back it has connectors for; 48 Volt power Redundancy Control Remote GPS (10 pin) RS232 DCE 1 PPS out 5 MHz out. And an On Line LED Amy place I can get more information? Bill K7NOM _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Tue Sep 23 09:41:20 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:41:20 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A References: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <029901c91d82$0ff9c170$4501a8c0@r44> Hi Ed, & the group, I'm also interested into that program to run with my 5372A I own also. I'm also interested into that application note I don't have. Do you have the pdf version of it? Probably you can run it on a PC Windows XP running with HP Basic for Windows . I could try on my PC as I got an old version of HP Basic. I could try also on a legacy HP 9826 computer I keep up and running for all the test and calibration running on this plateform. I think HP Basic is legacy, so no problem to copy it I guess, I could try to find my original to copy it for you. Best regards pf ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Palmer" To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval > Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability > Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a > reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A > only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau > values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so > similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. > I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to > translate it to another platform. > > Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? > The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither > Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. > > Thanks, > Ed > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > __________ Information NOD32 3464 (20080923) __________ > > Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > From had at to-way.com Tue Sep 23 10:50:24 2008 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 07:50:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A In-Reply-To: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> References: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <20080923145025.E42F01EE808@mail-in02.adhost.com> I also would be very interested in taking a look at this software. Thanks, Had, K7MLR At 09:16 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote: >Hello Everyone, > >I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval >Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability >Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a >reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A >only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau >values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so >similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. >I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to >translate it to another platform. > >Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? >The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither >Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. > >Thanks, >Ed From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Sep 23 11:25:13 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 08:25:13 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] signal from DirecTV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of SAIDJACK at aol.com > Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 10:52 AM > To: novick at nist.gov; time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] signal from DirecTV > > Hello Andrew, > > unfortunately I am not sure what you mean by Sat signal/code > frequency. > > The local STB PLL generated 27MHz on the video signal will be > derived from, and locked to the PCR time stamp inside the > MPEG stream of the broadcaster. > > The broadcaster will likely use an in-house frequency > standard to generate this, but it is entirely up to them what > they are using. My comment was that this signal was not very > stable from what I have seen. > > If you are interested in the RF frequency of the Sat signal, > things get very complicated because the Sat signal is mixed > with an LO at the LNB, and so not knowing the LO offset error > inside the LNB you would have to hack into the LNB to get > the RF frequency of the Sat. This is not as simple as using a > 27MHz bandpass: even the IF is in the 800MHz to 2GHz range, > and the RF is somewhere above 30GHz I think. > > bye, > Said > There are two flavors of LNBs, those that are locked to a reference and those that aren't. The locked ones are used for narrow band signals (e.g. SCPC, for instance) For typical Ku band DBS, the RF frequency is in the 11-13 GHz range, with the LO being above or below that (whether the mfr want's high or low side injection). For instance, Norsat makes a whole lot of LNBs that are PLL locked, A typical Ku LNB (1000H) has typical LO stability of 5-25 kHz (over temp). Phase noise is -75dBc/Hz @ 1 kHz, dropping 10dB/decade. They use low side injection, so the LO is at 10-11 GHz. Here's one with an external reference connection: http://www.invacom.com/documents/PLLLNB.pdf which appears to take a 10 MHz input. Note well you'll see folks talking about DRO LNBs and PLL LNBs. In reality, they both probably use a DRO as the oscillator, but in the PLL ones, it's locked to the external reference. Unlocked DROs are probably good to a couple MHz over temperature, and the typical DBS receiver can accommodate that much uncertainty in tuning (i.e. the signal is 25+ MHz wide, anyway) I would imagine that one could calibrate an unlocked DRO in real time. You could inject a 100 MHz comb or something from a quiet oscillator and then look for it in the output of the LNB. Typical PLL LNBs run about $200-400, new. Regular old unlocked ones are in the $20-30 range. From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Tue Sep 23 11:33:36 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:33:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A References: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <032a01c91d91$bf3f2620$4501a8c0@r44> I discovered that there are 13 AN concerning the 5371A & 5272A! They are on the Agilent site. pf, F5BQP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ed Palmer" To: Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A > > Hello Everyone, > > I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval > Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability > Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a > reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A > only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau > values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so > similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. > I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to > translate it to another platform. > > Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? > The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither > Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. > > Thanks, > Ed > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > __________ Information NOD32 3464 (20080923) __________ > > Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > From ne8s at earthlink.net Tue Sep 23 11:40:56 2008 From: ne8s at earthlink.net (Dr. G. W. Ko (NE8S)) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:40:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5371A Software Message-ID: <32473693.1222184456812.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> If someone could gain access to a copy of this software, I would like to placed on the list to receive a copy for analytical use. Many thanks in advance for any and all considerations, Doc NE8S At 09:16 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote: >Hello Everyone, > >I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval >Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability >Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a >reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A >only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau >values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so >similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. >I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to >translate it to another platform. > >Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? >The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither >Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. > >Thanks, >Ed From jvnjvn at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 14:39:58 2008 From: jvnjvn at gmail.com (Jan van Niekerk) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 13:39:58 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Slippery Slope of Ten RFG-RBs Message-ID: Yikes - just bought ten Lucent RFG-RB on ebay! Almost immediately got an DHL notify that "the goods are on their way". So I guess this is my somewhat crazy leap entry into the world of time nuts.... and my wife already agrees wholeheartedly. (Gotta get a shadow account for those dubious eBay purchases) Any suggestions on how to get going "from the ground up" would be appreciated. Based on what I've read so far, these units are probably close to end of life (if they were on all the time), since they were made "mid ninteties". Fortunately I have ten, hehe. Looks like I could fire up three and compare them? A quick search did not bring up a manual. Any news on that front? What do those Symmetricom Hydrogen Masers go for? :-) Jorg From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Tue Sep 23 14:45:38 2008 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 12:45:38 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 50, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D93952.5060209@sasktel.net> > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:41:20 +0200 > From: Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm) > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Message-ID: <029901c91d82$0ff9c170$4501a8c0 at r44> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Ed, & the group, > > I'm also interested into that program to run with my 5372A I own also. > I'm also interested into that application note I don't have. Do you have the > pdf version of it? > Probably you can run it on a PC Windows XP running with HP Basic for Windows > . > I could try on my PC as I got an old version of HP Basic. > I could try also on a legacy HP 9826 computer I keep up and running for all > the test and calibration running on this plateform. > I think HP Basic is legacy, so no problem to copy it I guess, I could try to > find my original to copy it for you. > > Best regards > pf > Thanks for the offer Pierre-Francois, but according to Wikipedia, you'd have to be very careful about making a copy. Some of the HP Basic versions were licensed from other vendors and are still being sold and supported by them. Of course, it doesn't matter if noone comes up with a copy of the program. Ed From wje at quackers.net Tue Sep 23 17:55:51 2008 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:55:51 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] HP Continuous Measurement Software for 5371A In-Reply-To: <20080923145025.E42F01EE808@mail-in02.adhost.com> References: <48D7C4E3.5030304@sasktel.net> <20080923145025.E42F01EE808@mail-in02.adhost.com> Message-ID: <48D965E7.7090502@quackers.net> I'm interested in a related item - ROM images for a later version of the firmware than I have in my 5371A. Quite a few features were added in the late releases; I have an early set of ROMs in my otherwise-pristine unit. If anyone has uploaded them in any of the common programmer formats, I'd appreciate a copy of the files, let me know if you'd like some compensation. If anyone has ROMs they want to lend me, I'd be happy to upload them and make copies available. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Had wrote: I also would be very interested in taking a look at this software. Thanks, Had, K7MLR At 09:16 AM 9/22/2008, you wrote: Hello Everyone, I'm gradually learning how to use my 5372A Frequency & Time Interval Analyzer. While reading App. Note 358-12 "Simplify Frequency Stability Measurements with Built-in Allan Variance Analysis" I ran across a reference to "HP 53700A Continuous Measurement Software" for the 5371A only. This software automates data collection & processing for Tau values greater than 8 seconds. Since the 5371A and 5372A are so similar, I thought I might be able to modify the program for my 5372A. I realize that the software only runs under HP BASIC - I'll also have to translate it to another platform. Does anyone have a copy of this software or know where I can get one? The software was free ('send in the enclosed reply card'), but neither Google nor the Agilent web site can give me any leads. Thanks, Ed _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [1]time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. References 1. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com 2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 21:27:24 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 21:27:24 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Problem with HP 8656A 50 Mhz reference oscillator Message-ID: I am having a problem with the 50 Mhz reference oscillator as it generates a frequency of 47.5 to 49.995 Mhz depending upon setting of R110. Q9 is dissipating excessive power and is hot to the touch A9 collector bias is at 11.5 instead of the proper 11.0 and emitter bias is at -.65V. base is nominal at 0V I've checked the components to make sure that values have not shifted. Has anyone seen and fixed simiar behavior as this circuit has the earmarks of one of HP's trick circuits which depend a precise relationship between selected components in order to perform normally - Thanks in advance Scott N1JIN PS if someone has a spare A3 board they would like to part with that would be OK as well. Reply From namichie at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 04:58:24 2008 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:58:24 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication Message-ID: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> Hi, I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble Thunderbolt. I have a laptop running VISTA, about which there is little to say. The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial converters that successfully run my HP 3815A and a Samsung GCRU/D, and also communicate with my HOBO loggers. The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes hanging, necessitating unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port numbers but tend to keep the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the management function. However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent that I thought that I must have damaged the TBOLT. Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and stoked it up, and to my delight the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows 2000 with a conventional serial port. Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need for pull up or down resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find nothing relevant. Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a USB/Serial converter? cheers, Neville Michie From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Wed Sep 24 05:27:02 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:27:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt arrives in Germany Message-ID: <4DA34FE5935443C1B9AF21C7DC04E550@athlon> Gents, after my credit card had been cashed by TAPR some days before I knew I was one of the people to receive a Thunderbolt. Today I took it out from the customs, saw that the power supply matches German power line conditions, connected it to my GPS splitter and fired it up. According to Thunderbolt Monitor it made a self survey and has now turned into phase locking mode with all alarms green except "Leap second pending". Great deal! To have a second GPSDO available will surely enable a number of new interesting experiments. Thanks to TVB for checking out my Thunderbolt! Best regards Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From don.key at ntlworld.com Wed Sep 24 06:01:17 2008 From: don.key at ntlworld.com (Don Key) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:01:17 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Stephen Hawking unveils Chronophage clock at Cambridge Message-ID: It's only accurate "once every 5 minutes", but it's more entertaining than watching a caesium box :) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7625815.stm From j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl Wed Sep 24 06:18:21 2008 From: j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl (Jeroen Bastemeijer) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 12:18:21 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48DA13ED.6060900@tudelft.nl> Hi Neville, I use USB-Serial converters. Brand is"Sweex", there is a common USB2serial chip inside. There was no need to modify anything (pull up resistors or what so ever). First I had communication, but from time to time strange behaviour. It made me think the Thunderbolt was faulty... I reported this to the Time-nust list. Someone suggested to update the driver , to the latest version. For me it worked out! It's working fine ever since. In you case you might do the following things: * connect a scope to the RS-232 pins to check the logic levels. * use the USB converter with another PC, maybe the USB port cannot supply the current needed (or use a USB-HUB with power supply in series). Good luck! 73 Jeroen PE1RGE Neville Michie wrote: > Hi, > I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble Thunderbolt. > I have a laptop running VISTA, about which there is little to say. > The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial converters > that successfully run > my HP 3815A and a Samsung GCRU/D, and also communicate with my HOBO > loggers. > The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes > hanging, necessitating > unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port > numbers but tend to keep > the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the > management function. > However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent > that I thought that I must have > damaged the TBOLT. > Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and > stoked it up, and to my delight > the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows > 2000 with a conventional serial port. > Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need > for pull up or down > resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find > nothing relevant. > Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a USB/Serial converter? > cheers, Neville Michie > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: j_bastemeijer.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 355 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080924/fe0199a0/attachment.vcf From phill.r1 at btinternet.com Wed Sep 24 08:53:51 2008 From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:53:51 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt Message-ID: Gentlemen I have been somewhat "out of the picture" in recent months,and missed out on the supply program. I gather that there is general satisfaction with the Trimble Thunderbolt. May I ask if you will be having any more purchase opportunities for this item. I would be pleased to have the opportunity to obtain one. Perhaps there are others who would like to add there names if it is possible ? If not, can you suggest an alternative source? Best regards Roy Phillips From buehl at superlink.net Wed Sep 24 09:02:33 2008 From: buehl at superlink.net (buehl) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:02:33 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Nevil: In my business we use/ supply serial to parallel converters for programming our product originally designed for serial. We ran into most of the problems you have described. The hanging appears to be a windows problem (we use XL pro mostly). Ours uses the Prolific converter and driver. We found that there are signal voltage level problems associated with the use of the USB as power source. This appears to be much worse with laptops than with desktop computers. We can take the same 'setup' and move it from a non-functioning laptop connection, and make it work well on a desktop. Seems that for power savings the laptop makers are reducing current levels and voltage levels to the lowest values possible; thus not enough level out of the converter. An S-P converter with its own power supply should help if it is designed to up-convert the serial levels to RS 232 standards. One of the things we did to help this was to reduce the required serial levels in our product. Of course you cannot change the tunderbolt parameters. Since our cable must be computer powered, one of the things I have wanted to try (never enough time) is shift the serial signal up above ground by a small amount. Thought was to use a small button cell in the serial output line. Thus instead of the serial signal going from 0 to 3.5V, it would go from 1 to 4.5V or similar. My thought is that serial device logic does not actually require 0V for low logic state, and the extra volt on the high side would improve reliability of HI logic state. If you want to contact me off-line: buehl at superlink.net Tom Buehl At 06:58 PM 9/24/2008 +1000, you wrote: >Hi, >I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble Thunderbolt. >I have a laptop running VISTA, about which there is little to say. >The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial converters >that successfully run >my HP 3815A and a Samsung GCRU/D, and also communicate with my HOBO >loggers. >The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes >hanging, necessitating >unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port >numbers but tend to keep >the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the >management function. >However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent >that I thought that I must have >damaged the TBOLT. >Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and >stoked it up, and to my delight >the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows >2000 with a conventional serial port. >Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need >for pull up or down >resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find >nothing relevant. >Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a USB/Serial converter? >cheers, Neville Michie > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From stijena at tapko.de Wed Sep 24 09:10:10 2008 From: stijena at tapko.de (Predrag Dukic) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:10:10 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> I had the same problem with some other devices, and I took apart several converters. Most of them were unable to generate sufficient levels for a proper communication with rs232. Internal charge pump was generating +-6V instead of +-12 or +-15 that is normal for rs232. Putting additional +-12 V source on the psu pins of the converter chip might help. Predrag Dukic At 10:58 24.9.2008, you wrote: >Hi, >I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble Thunderbolt. >I have a laptop running VISTA, about which there is little to say. >The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial converters >that successfully run >my HP 3815A and a Samsung GCRU/D, and also communicate with my HOBO >loggers. >The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes >hanging, necessitating >unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port >numbers but tend to keep >the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the >management function. >However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent >that I thought that I must have >damaged the TBOLT. >Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and >stoked it up, and to my delight >the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows >2000 with a conventional serial port. >Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need >for pull up or down >resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find >nothing relevant. >Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a USB/Serial converter? >cheers, Neville Michie > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Wed Sep 24 09:55:24 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:55:24 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> Message-ID: <12800F844ECD40D49BB8D6067C3AE187@athlon> Predrag, I had always thought that Recommended Standard 232 calls the region from -3 to +3 volts a "disallowed state" and suggests to use at least +/- 5 V levels so that +/- 6 V should be absolutely conform with RS232. Fortunately - or unfortunately ? - all modern RS232 receiver chips have a built-in fail-safe state which makes their TTL outputs go high with no RS232 input signal connected. Some people abuse this property in that they drive the input with 0 to anything voltage. But I have never seen such a behaviour in a USB to serial converter. Over the last years I had a lot to do with USB to serial converters because all modern gas analyzers for air pollution measurements have serial ports while most modern pcs have only USB ports. We have seen effects of sudden stops in communication with some brands (perhaps due to driver instability) but we have never had a RS232 voltage level based problem. Best regards Ulrich > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Predrag Dukic > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 24. September 2008 15:10 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication > > > > > I had the same problem with some other devices, and I took apart > several converters. > Most of them were unable to generate sufficient levels for a proper > communication with rs232. > Internal charge pump was generating +-6V instead of +-12 or +-15 > that is normal for rs232. > > Putting additional +-12 V source on the psu pins of the converter > chip might help. > > > Predrag Dukic > > > > > At 10:58 24.9.2008, you wrote: > >Hi, > >I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble > >Thunderbolt. I have a laptop running VISTA, about which > there is little > >to say. The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial > >converters that successfully run my HP 3815A and a Samsung > GCRU/D, and > >also communicate with my HOBO loggers. > >The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes > >hanging, necessitating > >unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port > >numbers but tend to keep > >the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the > >management function. > >However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent > >that I thought that I must have > >damaged the TBOLT. > >Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and > >stoked it up, and to my delight > >the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows > >2000 with a conventional serial port. > >Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need > >for pull up or down > >resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find > >nothing relevant. > >Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a > USB/Serial converter? > >cheers, Neville Michie > > > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to > >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and > follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Sep 24 12:12:40 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:12:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> Message-ID: Well.. Non standards conforming RS-232 devices are hardly new.. But.. The standard just says -3 to +3 is a "no defined behavior" zone, and that the receiver should be able to accept +/- 15 V, with a damage threshold of +/- 25V. (bear in mind, also, RS232C is in 1969, the latest is TIA-232-F, in 1997.. But I'm pretty sure the voltages haven't changed) The standard also says that the transmitter should put out +5 to +15 for logic zero and -5 to -15 for logic 1. The other often broken rules are the ones about any pin needing to be able to source or sink 30mA, and the one about any pin (Rx or Tx) being able to tolerate shorts to any voltage from +25 to -25. It's true that in TTL days, the standard MC1488 driver and MC1489 receiver did typically work off 12V rails, and if you just hook up a volt meter with no load, you'll get about 10.5 volts. The output Z is 300 ohms though, if there's some load at the receiver end (and there should be, the standard assumes 3-7kohms and 2500pF cable C), there will be some voltage drop. BTW the MC1488 (at least the one from TI) can only source 9mA (typ) Also bear in mind that there's some voltage drop in the wiring, accommodated by the higher swing on the spec transmit side vs the reduced range on the receive side. In any case, +/- 6V swing is barely compliant. James Lux, P.E. Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 +1(818)354-2075 phone +1(818)393-6875 fax > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Predrag Dukic > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:10 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication > > > > I had the same problem with some other devices, and I took > apart several converters. > Most of them were unable to generate sufficient levels for a > proper communication with rs232. > Internal charge pump was generating +-6V instead of +-12 or > +-15 that is normal for rs232. > > Putting additional +-12 V source on the psu pins of the > converter chip might help. > > > Predrag Dukic > From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Wed Sep 24 12:49:12 2008 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:49:12 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Neville, I do run my Thunderbolt very successful for quite a while and I do use either my stationary PC (running still with Win2000 on com1 or 2) or with my Laptop (Lenovo T43p with Win XP pro and USB2 ports) and had never a connection problem. For the connection to the USB port I use in general a Prolific cable interface, but I tried as well another model. I never experienced communication problems with this Prolofic USB/ RS232 converter with any RS232 device either, even when using another USB interface of another brand as a.m. The com ports on my Laptop do change as well (eg. between 1, 3, 5 and 10 if I remember well). This seem to be normal using a.m OS and may happen any time I do connect or disconnect anything to the USB ports and switching on/ off. Of course, the next switch on the TBoltMon may not find the right I/F to work anymore. But it's quite easy to solve this "problem" when working with TBoltMon (v.2.60). In detail: After the el. switch on of Thunderbolt connect the RS232 I/F via the RS232/ USB converter to the PC/ Laptop and start TboltMon. Select on the 1st window (com selection list) com1, the main window will come up with a lot of question marks if no connection via com1 is active. Right click with the mouse somewhere inside the main window of TBoltMon. After selecting in the next window 'Auto Find All' a green mark on the right side of the port list (1 to 16) does show up where the system found the Thunderbolt communication. A double click on the corresponding number beside it does then activate this connection, the data transfer will start immediately. Of course, when necessary I have to repeat this quick procedure everytime I restart TBoltmon. But once this interface is activated, the connection does stay stable until I switch it off. Other programs perhaps do need more steps to overcome this USB/ com port jump competition. I wish you success! Arnold . On Wed, 24 Sep 2008 18:58:24 +1000, Neville Michie wrote: >Hi, >I have just spent a week or two trying to talk to a Trimble Thunderbolt. >I have a laptop running VISTA, about which there is little to say. >The laptop has no serial ports, but I have some USB/Serial converters >that successfully run >my HP 3815A and a Samsung GCRU/D, and also communicate with my HOBO >loggers. >The USB/Serial converters are a little difficult to use, sometimes >hanging, necessitating >unplugging and plugging back in. They get assigned to various Port >numbers but tend to keep >the same number from day to day. The ports can be configured in the >management function. >However the TBOLT refuses to talk to the converter, to the extent >that I thought that I must have >damaged the TBOLT. >Today, as a last resort, I remembered an old PC, dragged it out and >stoked it up, and to my delight >the TBOLT monitoring program ran without difficulty under Windows >2000 with a conventional serial port. >Now I vaguely remember talk about RS232 communications and the need >for pull up or down >resistors and supplies, but searching the archives I could find >nothing relevant. >Can anyone tell me how I could run the TBOLT off a USB/Serial converter? >cheers, Neville Michie >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From stijena at tapko.de Wed Sep 24 16:23:00 2008 From: stijena at tapko.de (Predrag Dukic) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:23:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924221859.01dd2000@tapko.de> Lux, my hardware experiences confirm that +-6V is marginal. Some devices work, some do not. The problem is a charge pump chip inside the converter and not the Prolific interface chip itself. (It generates ttl levels anyway). All converters I saw till now are two chip solutions (usb chip and level translator with internal charge pump to produce +- supply. Predrag At 18:12 24.9.2008, you wrote: >Well.. Non standards conforming RS-232 devices are hardly new.. > >But.. The standard just says -3 to +3 is a "no defined behavior" >zone, and that the receiver should be able to accept +/- 15 V, with >a damage threshold of +/- 25V. (bear in mind, also, RS232C is in >1969, the latest is TIA-232-F, in 1997.. But I'm pretty sure the >voltages haven't changed) > >The standard also says that the transmitter should put out +5 to +15 >for logic zero and -5 to -15 for logic 1. > >The other often broken rules are the ones about any pin needing to >be able to source or sink 30mA, and the one about any pin (Rx or Tx) >being able to tolerate shorts to any voltage from +25 to -25. > >It's true that in TTL days, the standard MC1488 driver and MC1489 >receiver did typically work off 12V rails, and if you just hook up a >volt meter with no load, you'll get about 10.5 volts. The output Z >is 300 ohms though, if there's some load at the receiver end (and >there should be, the standard assumes 3-7kohms and 2500pF cable C), >there will be some voltage drop. > >BTW the MC1488 (at least the one from TI) can only source 9mA (typ) >Also bear in mind that there's some voltage drop in the wiring, >accommodated by the higher swing on the spec transmit side vs the >reduced range on the receive side. > >In any case, +/- 6V swing is barely compliant. > >James Lux, P.E. >Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios >Flight Communications Systems Section >Jet Propulsion Laboratory >4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 >Pasadena, CA, 91109 >+1(818)354-2075 phone >+1(818)393-6875 fax > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Predrag Dukic > > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 6:10 AM > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication > > > > > > > > I had the same problem with some other devices, and I took > > apart several converters. > > Most of them were unable to generate sufficient levels for a > > proper communication with rs232. > > Internal charge pump was generating +-6V instead of +-12 or > > +-15 that is normal for rs232. > > > > Putting additional +-12 V source on the psu pins of the > > converter chip might help. > > > > > > Predrag Dukic > > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Sep 24 16:24:02 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:24:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924221859.01dd2000@tapko.de> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924221859.01dd2000@tapko.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Predrag Dukic > Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2008 1:23 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication > > > > > Lux, > > my hardware experiences confirm that +-6V is marginal. Some > devices work, some do not. > The problem is a charge pump chip inside the converter and > not the Prolific interface chip itself. > (It generates ttl levels anyway). > > All converters I saw till now are two chip solutions (usb > chip and level translator with internal charge pump to > produce +- supply. > > Predrag > > And they are a very cost sensitive product, so they're not going to put any bigger capacitor on the charge pump than absolutely necessary. Jim From swithrow at idcomm.com Wed Sep 24 17:15:33 2008 From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 15:15:33 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 Message-ID: <20080924211533.E36BA39410D@mailhost.idcomm.com> Hello time-nuts, I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both Oncore and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit does not seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). I tried calling Symmetricom (talked to Larry Dearing) but seem to be caught in a Catch 22. They will not release the information on how to make the change, and will not do it themselves since the product has been obsoleted. Anyone have a sympathetic contact at Symmetricom? Does anyone have a TS2100-GPS that they wouldn't mind taking the top off and spending a few minutes on the phone (303-790-1830 8am-5pm M-F)? There does appear to be some jumpers on the board, and there are also words in EEPROM that can be modified via terminal interface. Also notice that there is an LPRO rubidium option for these units. I have one of these too and would be interested in trying to upgrade to rubidium as well. Anyone with one of these units out there? Thanks in advance for any help or direction in finding answers to these questions. Skip Withrow From jherrero at hvsistemas.es Wed Sep 24 17:32:31 2008 From: jherrero at hvsistemas.es (Javier Herrero) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:32:31 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924221859.01dd2000@tapko.de> Message-ID: <48DAB1EF.50306@hvsistemas.es> Not only that. The TTL are more frequently 3.3V TTL, and the TTL to RS-232 converters are supplied from 3.3V and uses a charge pump doubler and a charge pump inverter. Barely +/-6V. Usually they are designed for, and use, 100nF capacitors... the less expensive ones :) And a bigger capacitor would only mean less ripple. Regards, Javier Lux, James P escribi?: > > And they are a very cost sensitive product, so they're not going to put any bigger capacitor on the charge pump than absolutely necessary. > > Jim > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero at hvsistemas.com HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17A FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com From stijena at tapko.de Wed Sep 24 17:51:38 2008 From: stijena at tapko.de (Predrag Dukic) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:51:38 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TBOLT communication In-Reply-To: <48DAB1EF.50306@hvsistemas.es> References: <192A2D83-2CC9-4848-8A91-EFF0CDB2F2A7@gmail.com> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924150629.01e1d020@tapko.de> <7.0.1.0.1.20080924221859.01dd2000@tapko.de> <48DAB1EF.50306@hvsistemas.es> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20080924234726.01e61040@tapko.de> One of the converters didn't have any voltage pre-regulation for both the chips, and also one of my pcs gives 6 volts on USB ports That combination worked the best and could talk to virtually all my rs232 devices. I don't remember now the output 232 levels but they were close to 10V 6V x cca 1.5 ~ 10v Predrag At 23:32 24.9.2008, you wrote: >Not only that. The TTL are more frequently 3.3V TTL, and the TTL to >RS-232 converters are supplied from 3.3V and uses a charge pump doubler >and a charge pump inverter. Barely +/-6V. Usually they are designed for, >and use, 100nF capacitors... the less expensive ones :) And a bigger >capacitor would only mean less ripple. > >Regards, > >Javier > >Lux, James P escribi?: > > > > And they are a very cost sensitive product, > so they're not going to put any bigger > capacitor on the charge pump than absolutely necessary. > > > > Jim > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > >-- >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero at hvsistemas.com >HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 >Los Charcones, 17A FAX: +34 949 336 792 >19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Sep 24 18:31:48 2008 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 00:31:48 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Humoristic GPS Message-ID: <48DABFD4.3080308@rubidium.dyndns.org> http://www.wulffmorgenthaler.com/default.aspx?id=0677b678-369b-4570-80ac-ddb60d2d5c22 What's next? April-fool leap-second? Cheers, Magnus From dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de Wed Sep 24 20:44:30 2008 From: dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de (Gerhard Hoffmann) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:44:30 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:52:19 +1200, you wrote: >RF grounding all three electrodes of the BC860 is not good practice. >The BC860 will tend to oscillate when you do this unless the ESR of the >100uF base bypass cap is large enough. A standard electrolytic? The ESR is less than stellar, see my musings in http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/experiments_with_decoupling_capacitors.pdf and BC transistors are AF types. OK, getting ft is like drinking from a hydrant in Si planar. >The cure is simple omit the 100uF base bypass cap or at least leave an >unbypassed resistor of sufficient value in series with the BC860 base. The question is more if the 100r * 100u do anything to de-noise the LED voltage. Close to the carrier probably not. The problem is that you nowhere get exact numbers to base a decision on. >You can improve the phase noise somewhat if the time constants >associated with the BC860 base and collector bypass circuits are reduced >so that the BC860 reduces the collector current noise of the BFG196 in >the dc - 100kHz or so spectral region. Yes, but don't tell anybody about that, because Rohde claims he has a patent for that IIRC (forgetting a capacitor :-) . >The major problem with this circuit is the large dc current flowing in >the transformer primary increases the output distortion significantly. >This may make it difficult to extend the frequency response down to 5MHz >without using a large custom wound transformer. So be it custom. Anything less than 300 uH in par will ruin the flat frequency response, and the parasitics of a large L + coupling cap will do the same :-( And with the flat response, the delay stability will be gone, too. >The purpose of the heavy bypassing of the bases of the BFG31 transistors >is to reduce the low frequency noise at the BFG31 bases, this reduces >the amplifier close in phase noise. This was an area of doubt for me, upto now. Experimenting with LT-Spice brought some insights. (btw available for free from http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/switchercad.jsp __Highly_recommended__! Even in the sense of free beer, not free/open source.) Noise gain of a voltage fed to the base of common base stage is proportional to Zc/Ze. The Impedance at the emitter of Q3 is quite low, so the noise voltage at the base reference divider is propagated to the output just like an input voltage to the BFG196. --> AF decoupling needed for Q3 (and the space is reserved on the board) www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/noise_base_Q3.gif Generator input is 0 dB, solid lines = amplitude, dotted lines = phase. The AF noise itself may not make it to the output, but it may be modulated onto the carrier. The second cascode stage, Q4, is fed from the high source impedance of the Q3 common base stage. The emitter current is forced into Q4 without much influence of the Q4 base voltage. The noise voltage at the base from the resistive divider is pretty much suppressed, so heavy decoupling of Q4.base should not pay. www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/noise_base_Q4.gif Thinking about it, in this circuit only the second CB stage delivers "full" isolation. >It is also necessary to use some active filtering of the power supply if >one is to achieve low close in phase noise. Yes, but that's a different board. I have built some regulators in the style of Walt Jung of Analog Devices, and they look quite promising. (clever idea, feeding the reference from the regulated output) They feature 2 or 3 nV / sqrt Hz. http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Regulator_Excels_In_Noise_and_Line_Rejection.pdf www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/IMG_0341__jung_pos_ref_1024_q75.jpg (voltage reference and positive regulator) >To maximise reverse isolation the individual amplifiers will need to be >enclosed in RF shields. The space and the holes are there already, but I still need the access. >Have you measured the reverse isolation? not yet. >For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by >threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. The next iteration will have to live with BNC because R&S smpd, hp8662A, SNA-33 & friends all have BNCs and the holes in the 19" front plate of my GPS disciplined XO are drilled already. OK, we'll get optional SMAs, too. (the singe channel proto has them already.) >If you are using thick film resistors replace them with thin film >resistors if you want low close in phase noise. Susumu NiCr 0.1% from Digikey, next delivery.. >Have you measured the phase noise? Not yet. Still bootstrapping. If it's worth measuring, it cannot be done with the spectrum analyzer. I've got an offer from a 3rd party to have it measured and I'll accept that :-) >Have you measured the input and output VSWR or reflection coefficients? >With real transformers the value of the 200 ohm resistor may need to be >adjusted to minimise the output reflection coefficient. output return loss is in the .pdf 35 MHz must happen to be the sweet spot in the eyes of the ZRB2 bridge. Input is RC only, should be trimmable. The next version will be changed to have equal input delays for all channels, so measuring input RL now would be a waste of time. thanks for the proposals! regards, Gerhard, dk4xp (The week doesn't have enough end. And it's half past 2, again. Good Night!) From scmcgrath at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 21:07:49 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:07:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: <20080924211533.E36BA39410D@mailhost.idcomm.com> References: <20080924211533.E36BA39410D@mailhost.idcomm.com> Message-ID: Symmetricom is a sales organization - tech support for non-contract customers is iffy at best. We use symmetricom NTP servers some of which have gone obsolete and the only support we get is calls from the sales dept asking when are we going to replace them (we do have a contract). I really miss TrueTime, Datum and Agilent (time products) all of which have been assimilated into the borg cube which is Symmetricom On 9/24/08, Skip Withrow wrote: > > Hello time-nuts, > > I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice > unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I > notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the > unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both Oncore > and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit > does not > seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). > > I tried calling Symmetricom (talked to Larry Dearing) but seem to be > caught in a Catch 22. They will not release the information on how to > make the change, and will not do it themselves since the product has > been obsoleted. > > Anyone have a sympathetic contact at Symmetricom? > > Does anyone have a TS2100-GPS that they wouldn't mind taking the top off > and spending a few minutes on the phone (303-790-1830 8am-5pm M-F)? There > does appear to be some jumpers on the board, and there are also words in > EEPROM that can be modified via terminal interface. > > Also notice that there is an LPRO rubidium option for these units. I > have one of these too and would be interested in trying to upgrade to > rubidium as well. Anyone with one of these units out there? > > Thanks in advance for any help or direction in finding answers to these > questions. > > Skip Withrow > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Sep 24 22:08:51 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:08:51 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote: > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:52:19 +1200, you wrote: > > > >> RF grounding all three electrodes of the BC860 is not good practice. >> The BC860 will tend to oscillate when you do this unless the ESR of the >> 100uF base bypass cap is large enough. >> > > A standard electrolytic? The ESR is less than stellar, see my musings in > > http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/experiments_with_decoupling_capacitors.pdf > > and BC transistors are AF types. > OK, getting ft is like drinking from a hydrant in Si planar. > > > >> The cure is simple omit the 100uF base bypass cap or at least leave an >> unbypassed resistor of sufficient value in series with the BC860 base. >> > > The question is more if the 100r * 100u do anything to de-noise > the LED voltage. Close to the carrier probably not. The problem is > that you nowhere get exact numbers to base a decision on. > > > There usually not too much point in low pass filtering the LED voltage as the noise of a forward biased LED is very low unless of course the LED has poor reliability (high LED voltage noise is a very good predictor of poor reliability). Of course the finite slope resistance of the LED will allow some of the power supply noise to appear across it. >> You can improve the phase noise somewhat if the time constants >> associated with the BC860 base and collector bypass circuits are reduced >> so that the BC860 reduces the collector current noise of the BFG196 in >> the dc - 100kHz or so spectral region. >> > > Yes, but don't tell anybody about that, because Rohde claims he has > a patent for that IIRC (forgetting a capacitor :-) . > > Its a bit more than omitting a base bypass cap as it has been recommended for decades (well before Rhode came up with his not too original idea - this was obvious once NIST demonstrated that extending the bandwidth of a current regulation loop helped suppress low offset frequency phase noise) that a base bypass cap for the current regulator transistor not be used to avoid oscillation. >> The major problem with this circuit is the large dc current flowing in >> the transformer primary increases the output distortion significantly. >> This may make it difficult to extend the frequency response down to 5MHz >> without using a large custom wound transformer. >> > > So be it custom. Anything less than 300 uH in par will ruin the flat frequency > response, and the parasitics of a large L + coupling cap will do the same :-( > And with the flat response, the delay stability will be gone, too. > > You are likely to find that its only practical to cover the 80-120Mhz region as the NIST and Spectradynamics distribution amplifiers do. >> The purpose of the heavy bypassing of the bases of the BFG31 transistors >> is to reduce the low frequency noise at the BFG31 bases, this reduces >> the amplifier close in phase noise. >> > > This was an area of doubt for me, upto now. > Experimenting with LT-Spice brought some insights. > > You need to read the phase noise references listed at the bottom of: http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html Essentially noise voltages between collector and base modulates the collector output capacitance and hence the modulates the output signal phase shift. It can also modulate the emitter current and hence the transistor ft which also phase modulates the output signal. Other transistor parameters can also be modulated by noise voltages from the power supply, resistors etc. > (btw available for free from http://www.linear.com/designtools/software/switchercad.jsp > __Highly_recommended__! Even in the sense of free beer, not free/open source.) > > It has some severe limitations for most of the simulations I have done. > Noise gain of a voltage fed to the base of common base stage is proportional > to Zc/Ze. The Impedance at the emitter of Q3 is quite low, so the > noise voltage at the base reference divider is propagated to the output > just like an input voltage to the BFG196. --> AF decoupling needed for Q3 > (and the space is reserved on the board) > www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/noise_base_Q3.gif > Generator input is 0 dB, solid lines = amplitude, dotted lines = phase. > The AF noise itself may not make it to the output, but it may be > modulated onto the carrier. > > The second cascode stage, Q4, is fed from the high source impedance of the > Q3 common base stage. The emitter current is forced into Q4 without > much influence of the Q4 base voltage. The noise voltage at the base > from the resistive divider is pretty much suppressed, so heavy > decoupling of Q4.base should not pay. > Not true it still modulates the collector base capacitance of Q4. > www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/noise_base_Q4.gif > > Thinking about it, in this circuit only the second CB stage delivers > "full" isolation. > > Typically a CB stage has 40dB or more reverse isolation (at low frequencies with a low impedance connection from base to ground) whilst an emitter follower may have 10db less isolation (depends on hfe at the frequency for which the reverse isolation is measured. Using a darlington or Sziklai pair will improve the reverse isolation over that of an emitter follower). >> It is also necessary to use some active filtering of the power supply if >> one is to achieve low close in phase noise. >> > > Yes, but that's a different board. I have built some regulators in the > style of Walt Jung of Analog Devices, and they look quite promising. > (clever idea, feeding the reference from the regulated output) > They feature 2 or 3 nV / sqrt Hz. > > http://waltjung.org/PDFs/Regulator_Excels_In_Noise_and_Line_Rejection.pdf > > www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/IMG_0341__jung_pos_ref_1024_q75.jpg > (voltage reference and positive regulator) > > > These need to be supplemented with on board filtering as they aren't quite as quiet as you need. Either the NIST style darlington buffered RC low pass filter (one per amplifier) and/or a modified (stabilises the shunt transistor re by making its collector current approximately PTAT) version of Wenzel's active power supply noise filter can be used. >> To maximise reverse isolation the individual amplifiers will need to be >> enclosed in RF shields. >> > > The space and the holes are there already, but I still need the access. > > >> Have you measured the reverse isolation? >> > > not yet. > > >> For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by >> threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. >> > > The next iteration will have to live with BNC because R&S smpd, hp8662A, > SNA-33 & friends all have BNCs and the holes in the 19" front plate of > my GPS disciplined XO are drilled already. > OK, we'll get optional SMAs, too. (the singe channel proto has them already.) > > A TNC connector should fit in the BNC holes. TNC to BNC adapters are available when you need to connect to a BNC. >> If you are using thick film resistors replace them with thin film >> resistors if you want low close in phase noise. >> > > Susumu NiCr 0.1% from Digikey, next delivery.. > > 1% metal film would suffice. >> Have you measured the phase noise? >> > > Not yet. Still bootstrapping. If it's worth measuring, it > cannot be done with the spectrum analyzer. > I've got an offer from a 3rd party to have it measured > and I'll accept that :-) > > You can easily measure the phase noise for low offset frequencies using a low noise mixer with appropriate (not 50 ohm) IF termination followed by a low noise (audio frequency) preamp driving a sound card. A 24 bit sound card is ideal, however 16 bit sound cards just need a little more preamp gain. No need for a PLL just split the output of a low noise OCXO or similar source drive the mixer LO port with one output and the isolation amplifier with the other whilst the isolation amplifier output drives the mixer RF port. You will need to adjust the phasing between the LO and Rf signals so that they are approximately in quadrature by using a suitable length of coax or other means. You can even take advantage of the 2 channel (stereo) sound card inputs to do get well below the mixer noise and/or sound card noise floor by using cross correlation techniques. For higher offset frequencies (>100kHz) a similar setup with a 50 ohm IF port termination plus a high gain low noise amplifier can be used to drive the input of a spectrum analyser to measure the phase noise. >> Have you measured the input and output VSWR or reflection coefficients? >> With real transformers the value of the 200 ohm resistor may need to be >> adjusted to minimise the output reflection coefficient. >> > > output return loss is in the .pdf > 35 MHz must happen to be the sweet spot in the eyes of the ZRB2 bridge. > > Input is RC only, should be trimmable. The next version will be changed to > have equal input delays for all channels, so measuring input RL now > would be a waste of time. > > thanks for the proposals! > > regards, Gerhard, dk4xp > > (The week doesn't have enough end. And it's half past 2, again. Good Night!) > > Bruce From jmiles at pop.net Wed Sep 24 22:39:06 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 19:39:06 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: > It (LTSpice) has some severe limitations for most of the simulations I have done. You might bring those up with Mike Engelhardt (the author). He doesn't miss many tricks. > These need to be supplemented with on board filtering as they aren't > quite as quiet as you need. > Either the NIST style darlington buffered RC low pass filter (one per > amplifier) and/or a modified (stabilises the shunt transistor re by > making its collector current approximately PTAT) version of Wenzel's > active power supply noise filter can be used. The Jung article at Gerhard's link claims 3 nv/root-Hz at 1 kHz. Wenzel's page claims 20 nv/root-Hz at 1 kHz. What figures would be expected from the modified version you're talking about? > You can easily measure the phase noise for low offset frequencies using > a low noise mixer with appropriate (not 50 ohm) IF termination followed > by a low noise (audio frequency) preamp driving a sound card. A 24 bit > sound card is ideal, however 16 bit sound cards just need a little more > preamp gain. No need for a PLL just split the output of a low noise OCXO > or similar source drive the mixer LO port with one output and the > isolation amplifier with the other whilst the isolation amplifier output > drives the mixer RF port. You will need to adjust the phasing between > the LO and Rf signals so that they are approximately in quadrature by > using a suitable length of coax or other means. You can even take > advantage of the 2 channel (stereo) sound card inputs to do get well > below the mixer noise and/or sound card noise floor by using cross > correlation techniques. What's the current thinking re: FFT window functions for noise measurement? Does it matter what you use, as long as the window's equivalent noise bandwidth is factored in? -- john, KE5FX From had at to-way.com Thu Sep 25 00:22:00 2008 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 21:22:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: <20080924211533.E36BA39410D@mailhost.idcomm.com> References: <20080924211533.E36BA39410D@mailhost.idcomm.com> Message-ID: <20080925042201.E25E616481F@mail-in06.adhost.com> Skip, I'm truly sorry but you have discovered the ultimate "Black Hole" of timing information. had, K7MLR At 02:15 PM 9/24/2008, you wrote: >Hello time-nuts, > >I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice >unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I >notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the >unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both Oncore >and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit >does not >seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). > >I tried calling Symmetricom (talked to Larry Dearing) but seem to be >caught in a Catch 22. They will not release the information on how to >make the change, and will not do it themselves since the product has >been obsoleted. > >Anyone have a sympathetic contact at Symmetricom? > >Does anyone have a TS2100-GPS that they wouldn't mind taking the top off >and spending a few minutes on the phone (303-790-1830 8am-5pm M-F)? There >does appear to be some jumpers on the board, and there are also words in >EEPROM that can be modified via terminal interface. > >Also notice that there is an LPRO rubidium option for these units. I >have one of these too and would be interested in trying to upgrade to >rubidium as well. Anyone with one of these units out there? > >Thanks in advance for any help or direction in finding answers to these >questions. > >Skip Withrow > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Thu Sep 25 00:45:01 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:45:01 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DB174D.5000206@xtra.co.nz> John >> It (LTSpice) has some severe limitations for most of the simulations I >> > have done. > > You might bring those up with Mike Engelhardt (the author). He doesn't miss > many tricks. > > >> These need to be supplemented with on board filtering as they aren't >> quite as quiet as you need. >> Either the NIST style darlington buffered RC low pass filter (one per >> amplifier) and/or a modified (stabilises the shunt transistor re by >> making its collector current approximately PTAT) version of Wenzel's >> active power supply noise filter can be used. >> > > The Jung article at Gerhard's link claims 3 nv/root-Hz at 1 kHz. Wenzel's > page claims 20 nv/root-Hz at 1 kHz. What figures would be expected from the > modified version you're talking about? > > The amplifiers can couple via the power supply impedance if one isnt careful. When one is trying to achieve crosstalk below -100dB this can be an important path. The transistor version of Wenzels circuit (without the opamp) is much better than that. The real issue is the noise below 1kHz. Extending the low frequency cutoff sufficiently low is difficult but not quite impossible. >> You can easily measure the phase noise for low offset frequencies using >> a low noise mixer with appropriate (not 50 ohm) IF termination followed >> by a low noise (audio frequency) preamp driving a sound card. A 24 bit >> sound card is ideal, however 16 bit sound cards just need a little more >> preamp gain. No need for a PLL just split the output of a low noise OCXO >> or similar source drive the mixer LO port with one output and the >> isolation amplifier with the other whilst the isolation amplifier output >> drives the mixer RF port. You will need to adjust the phasing between >> the LO and Rf signals so that they are approximately in quadrature by >> using a suitable length of coax or other means. You can even take >> advantage of the 2 channel (stereo) sound card inputs to do get well >> below the mixer noise and/or sound card noise floor by using cross >> correlation techniques. >> > > What's the current thinking re: FFT window functions for noise measurement? > Does it matter what you use, as long as the window's equivalent noise > bandwidth is factored in? > > Yes it does matter particularly at low offset frequency where the noise bandwidth of the window approaches the offset and the noise process is sufficiently divergent. At higher offset frequencies the window function is much less critical see: http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/112.pdf > -- john, KE5FX > > > Bruce From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Sep 25 01:23:37 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:23:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Stephen Hawking unveils Chronophage clock at Cambridge In-Reply-To: Message from "Don Key" of "Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:01:17 BST." Message-ID: <20080925052338.1D131BCD3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Another opinion: http://blog.longnow.org/2008/09/21/the-chronophage/ That leads to a wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Clock The wiki page(s) link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_escapement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gridiron_pendulum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_escapement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verge_escapement -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From ch at murgatroid.com Thu Sep 25 01:37:33 2008 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 22:37:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005301c91ed0$cff3ebf0$6fdbc3d0$@com> "Skip Withrow" wrote: > I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice > unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I > notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the > unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both > Oncore > and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the > unit > does not > seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). I was able to make this conversion with an ACE-III module (thanks Jason!). I am a bit fuzzy on the details now and my notebooks are packed away in some random box, but I do recall that it was important to set the ACE-III to speak the right protocol -- TSIP, IIRC. There may have been an issue with speed as well. A logic analyzer on the TS's Tx pin was helpful. I have a vague memory of sending out a note about my successful conversion, so you may want to check the archives. What I am certain of is that Symmetricom is not going to be of any help. Abandon all hope there. -ch From w3kl at w3kl.com Thu Sep 25 05:28:13 2008 From: w3kl at w3kl.com (Jeffrey Okamitsu) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Degaussing Unit For An HP5061B Message-ID: <836132.11235.qm@web35401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am looking for an HP 10638A degausser for an HP5061B Cesium Beam Standard. ? Does anyone have one that they are willing to sell? ? Short of that, does anyone have a schematic for the degausser they're willing to share with me? ? Thanks! ? Jeff Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA +1-609-638-5402 From wje at quackers.net Thu Sep 25 06:59:27 2008 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 06:59:27 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Degaussing Unit For An HP5061B In-Reply-To: <836132.11235.qm@web35401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <836132.11235.qm@web35401.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48DB6F0F.7080300@quackers.net> I've been looking for one for ages. They're out there, but at outrageous prices. ManualsPlus sells a very nice reprint manual with schematics. If you're patient, I just started building a replacement using most of the original circuitry. I'd be happy to make board files available, or a board at cost. It might be a few months, though; things are very busy at my real job. The degausser is quite simple. High degauss provides ~330 ma, low about ~17 ma initially, with an exponential decay. The decay constant is 100 secs. There's a 20 minute timer that terminates the cycle. There's a DPDT relay which switches the current direction through the coil that toggles every 2.5 seconds. (Cheap H bridge). That's it. I'm replicating most of the analog current source circuity, but replacing the analog 2.5 sec and 20 minute timers with a uP. I'd also be happy to send you a copy of the schematic. If you want it, send me your snail mail info. I'd recommend the manual, though. It's very nicely done and costs $25. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. Jeffrey Okamitsu wrote: > I am looking for an HP 10638A degausser for an HP5061B Cesium Beam Standard. > > Does anyone have one that they are willing to sell? > > Short of that, does anyone have a schematic for the degausser they're willing to share with me? > > Thanks! > > Jeff > > Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA > +1-609-638-5402 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > From jason at extremeoverclocking.com Thu Sep 25 08:58:42 2008 From: jason at extremeoverclocking.com (Jason Rabel) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 07:58:42 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09B8A67FDDA1435E8ED0F67ACC32D70B@Inspiron> Skip, I've successfully converted my TS2100 IRIG to a GPS model along with several other people. As far as I know, the Oncore module was never used (maybe a planned future upgrade), but the ACE-III modules work just fine. The trick is you need to make a temporary interface with your ACE-III and set PORT1 to 9600 8O1 TSIP in, TSIP out. The receiver is probably set to 8N1 right now which is why it's not working. I dug through my old emails and this bit of information might also be useful: TSIPMonitor32 seemed to always (re)set the receiver to 9600-8N1. My workaround was to use the Acutime TR_Monitor (set to the pallisade receiver) to set the baud rate, then run TSIP chat and save the seeprom settings there. You should be able to find all those programs on the Trimble FTP server. No need to mess with any jumpers or eeproms... Just be sure to flash your firmware to the latest version (which is a couple years old at least I think). As for the Rubidium upgrade, that's another can of worms. Unfortunately nobody on the list has the LPRO model (or is admitting it), so there's no way to know exactly how the wiring hooks up or if a second power supply is needed, if the stock oscillator needs to be removed or not, also I'm sure the loop and gain settings would need to be changed which one would need to know. Oh, incase you were wondering, the screws that hold down the GPS module are 2-56 x 1/4"... Tiny little suckers... Hope this helps, Jason > I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice > unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I > notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the > unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both Oncore > and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit > does not seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). From tom.k3io at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 16:02:43 2008 From: tom.k3io at gmail.com (Tom Clark, K3IO) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:02:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> Gerhard -- the discussion between you and Bruce has been very interesting. I asked a VLBI colleague to look over your design and he had this comment. In VLBI, H-Maser frequency standards used to generate local oscillators at microwave frequencies. We have problems with amplitude modulation being converted to phase modulation when hum is present. I notice that Bruce also uses transformers. Comments from both of you will be eagerly awaited! Thanks Tom. I notice the Gerhard Hoffmann circuit has a transformer on the outputs. Wenzell also uses transformers and we have found them to be a problem if there is any stray AC mag. field around. We have added some magnetic shielding to the UpDown converters to reduce the 60/120 Hz modulation which results if the UpDown is close to a another piece of electronics with a AC fan or AC transformer. I don't think 60/120 Hz is a problem for VLBI2010 but it can be a problem for mmvlbi. To help to decipher some of our "code words": * the UpDown Converter is a wideband frequency converter that takes an arbitrary chunk of 1-20 GHz RF and mixes it to a more convenient & standardized frequency to feed a polyphase filter bank. * VLBI2010 is design prototype effort we are doing that will use (relatively) small antennas operating over the entire ~2-15 GHz spectrum to produce geodetic measurements accurate to mm-levels on global baselines (up to ~10,000 km). * mmvlbi refers to VLBI at mm wavelengths (like 100-500 GHz) for astronomical measurements. Most recently, the mm observations of the size/structure of radiation from the area around the black hole in the center of our galaxy are really exciting. Regards, Tom From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 25 16:10:14 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:10:14 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations Message-ID: <10e101c91f4a$b9148320$4501a8c0@r44> Hi, I listened today the WWW station and I've found it on 9.996 Mhz instead of 10.000Mhz and my receiver is fairly well calibrated and I was within the narrow CW filter. I thought the WWW was precisely on 10Mhz. Do you have some explaination? How many WWW station worldwilde are there and what are their precise frequencies? Many thanks, pf, F5BQP From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Thu Sep 25 16:41:14 2008 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:41:14 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:44:30 +0200." Message-ID: <7705.1222375274@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Gerhard Hoffmann write s: >The question is more if the 100r * 100u do anything to de-noise >the LED voltage. Close to the carrier probably not. The problem is >that you nowhere get exact numbers to base a decision on. Be aware that LED's work both ways: current->light and light->current. Their noise spectrum is influenced by the ambient light, in particular flourecent lights, other discharge types, and, ironically, modulated LED lamps. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Thu Sep 25 16:34:37 2008 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:34:37 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 25 Sep 2008 02:44:30 +0200." Message-ID: <7672.1222374877@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Gerhard Hoffmann write s: >The question is more if the 100r * 100u do anything to de-noise >the LED voltage. Close to the carrier probably not. The problem is >that you nowhere get exact numbers to base a decision on. Be aware that LED's work both ways: current->light and light->current. Their noise spectrum is influenced by the ambient light, in particular flourecent lights, other discharge types, and, ironically, modulated LED lamps. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From jmiles at pop.net Thu Sep 25 16:55:35 2008 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 13:55:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations In-Reply-To: <10e101c91f4a$b9148320$4501a8c0@r44> Message-ID: You don't normally listen to a CW signal at zero beat, so many receivers apply a BFO offset to make the CW tone audible at a comfortable frequency. This is usually more like 800 Hz than 4 kHz, though, so you could still have a calibration error somewhere. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Pierre-Francois (f5bqp_pfm) > Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:10 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations > > > Hi, > > I listened today the WWW station and I've found it on 9.996 Mhz > instead of 10.000Mhz and my receiver is fairly well calibrated > and I was within the narrow CW filter. > I thought the WWW was precisely on 10Mhz. > Do you have some explaination? > How many WWW station worldwilde are there and what are their > precise frequencies? > > Many thanks, > pf, F5BQP > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From iovane at inwind.it Thu Sep 25 16:59:55 2008 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:59:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations Message-ID: You heard the Russian station RWM (.-. .-- --) which transmits on 4996, 9996, 14996 and maybe 19996. It is the easiest to receive station in Europe, quite strong signal. 73, Antonio I8IOV > Hi, > > I listened today the WWW station and I've found it on 9.996 Mhz instead of 10.000Mhz and my receiver is fairly well calibrated and I was within the narrow CW filter. > I thought the WWW was precisely on 10Mhz. > Do you have some explaination? > How many WWW station worldwilde are there and what are their precise frequencies? > > Many thanks, > pf, F5BQP > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 25 17:54:27 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:54:27 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations References: Message-ID: <11b501c91f59$480d4770$4501a8c0@r44> Hi John, No no, I'm sure of my cal, but not sure of the station.... I've tried to find a list of the WWW stations without success. pf ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Miles" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations > > You don't normally listen to a CW signal at zero beat, so many receivers > apply a BFO offset to make the CW tone audible at a comfortable frequency. > This is usually more like 800 Hz than 4 kHz, though, so you could still > have > a calibration error somewhere. > > -- john, KE5FX > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On >> Behalf Of Pierre-Francois (f5bqp_pfm) >> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 1:10 PM >> To: time-nuts at febo.com >> Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations >> >> >> Hi, >> >> I listened today the WWW station and I've found it on 9.996 Mhz >> instead of 10.000Mhz and my receiver is fairly well calibrated >> and I was within the narrow CW filter. >> I thought the WWW was precisely on 10Mhz. >> Do you have some explaination? >> How many WWW station worldwilde are there and what are their >> precise frequencies? >> >> Many thanks, >> pf, F5BQP >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > __________ Information NOD32 3471 (20080925) __________ > > Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Thu Sep 25 17:55:50 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 23:55:50 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations References: Message-ID: <11ba01c91f59$79d878b0$4501a8c0@r44> Hi Antonio, Ah yes I presume this is it ... Many thanks pf ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "time-nuts" Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 10:59 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations > > You heard the Russian station RWM (.-. .-- --) which transmits on 4996, > 9996, 14996 and maybe 19996. It is the easiest to receive station in > Europe, quite strong signal. > 73, > Antonio I8IOV > > > > >> Hi, >> >> I listened today the WWW station and I've found it on 9.996 Mhz instead >> of 10.000Mhz and my receiver is fairly well calibrated and I was within >> the narrow CW filter. >> I thought the WWW was precisely on 10Mhz. >> Do you have some explaination? >> How many WWW station worldwilde are there and what are their precise >> frequencies? >> >> Many thanks, >> pf, F5BQP >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > __________ Information NOD32 3471 (20080925) __________ > > Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Thu Sep 25 17:29:54 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:29:54 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <7705.1222375274@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <7705.1222375274@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <48DC02D2.8090306@xtra.co.nz> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > In message , Gerhard Hoffmann write > s: > > >> The question is more if the 100r * 100u do anything to de-noise >> the LED voltage. Close to the carrier probably not. The problem is >> that you nowhere get exact numbers to base a decision on. >> > > Be aware that LED's work both ways: current->light and light->current. > > Their noise spectrum is influenced by the ambient light, in particular > flourecent lights, other discharge types, and, ironically, modulated > LED lamps. > > Poul In practice this isnt usually a significant problem with a forward biased LED as the photocurrents are relatively small compared to the LED bias current. One can always use a light shield or coat the LED in opaque epoxy. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Thu Sep 25 18:35:59 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:35:59 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48DC124F.102@xtra.co.nz> Tom Clark, K3IO wrote: > Gerhard -- the discussion between you and Bruce has been very > interesting. I asked a VLBI colleague to look over your design and he > had this comment. > In VLBI, H-Maser frequency standards used to generate local > oscillators at microwave frequencies. We have problems with amplitude > modulation being converted to phase modulation when hum is present. I > notice that Bruce also uses transformers. Comments from both of you > will be eagerly awaited! > > Thanks Tom. I notice the Gerhard Hoffmann circuit has a > transformer on the outputs. Wenzell also uses transformers and we > have found them to be a problem if there is any stray AC mag. field > around. We have added some magnetic shielding to the UpDown > converters to reduce the 60/120 Hz modulation which results if the > UpDown is close to a another piece of electronics with a AC fan or > AC transformer. I don't think 60/120 Hz is a problem for VLBI2010 > but it can be a problem for mmvlbi. > > To help to decipher some of our "code words": > * the UpDown Converter is a wideband frequency converter that takes > an arbitrary chunk of 1-20 GHz RF and mixes it to a more convenient > & standardized frequency to feed a polyphase filter bank. > * VLBI2010 is design prototype effort we are doing that will use > (relatively) small antennas operating over the entire ~2-15 GHz > spectrum to produce geodetic measurements accurate to mm-levels on > global baselines (up to ~10,000 km). > * mmvlbi refers to VLBI at mm wavelengths (like 100-500 GHz) for > astronomical measurements. Most recently, the mm observations of > the size/structure of radiation from the area around the black > hole in the center of our galaxy are really exciting. > > Regards, Tom > Tom Another technique is to null the AC magnetic field at the transformer using a set of coils and a servo loop. However this isnt always a particularly practical/inexpensive/simple solution. The AC field modulates the transformer inductances and hence the phase shift. Thus in the absence of shielding or field nulling a transformer with a ferromagnetic core will suffer from this problem. Ferrite core chokes will also suffer from inductance modulation by the AC magnetic field. One is either left with using RC coupling which makes it difficult to achieve power gain from a CB stage and the dc load resistors can contribute significant close in phase noise. One may need to resort to using an emitter follower to drive the load. The key factor in keeping the close in phase noise down at low offset frequencies is to keep the dc gain from input to output low. Where input means not just the actual RF input but includes any active bias regulation circuits. It is relatively easy to ensure that the dc gain and low frequency from the input transistor base to the output transistor collector load resistor is relatively low by using a large value resistor (capacitively bypassed for RF) connected in series between the input emitter follower and the first common base stage. With such a resistor one can dispense with the bias regulator transistor and use a divider tap buffered by a low frequency emitter follower if necessary to determine the dc base voltage of the input transistor. The drawback with such an approach is the increased power supply voltage and the dissipation in the bias and load resistors. With a 200 ohm collector load resistor and 45mA collector current there will be a 9V dc voltage drop across it (its will also dissipate about 400mW). If the isolation amplifier dc collector current were increased to 80-90mA or so (may require paralleling the outputs of 2 amplifiers) then it can easily drive 1V rms into a 25 ohm load. This would allow a capacitively coupled 50 ohm load to be driven whilst ensuring the output stage reflection coefficient is relatively low. Since the collector current regulation circuit ensures that the output current that the dc gain from any of the amplifier transistor bases to the output transistor collector is low, it is well worth retaining the bias regulation transistor. However the dc and low frequency gain from the bias regulation transistor base to the outpout transistor collector load will be about 1X. This can be reduced by increasing the bias current regulator circuit effective reference voltage (about 1V if a RED LED is used). Using a light shield or encapsulating the led in opaque epoxy is probably a worthwhile precaution to avoid photocurrents and consequent incidental phase modulation at twice the mains frequency and its harmonics. Alternatively narrowband techniques (tuned circuits with air core inductors) could be used however the resultant phase shift tempcos may be unacceptable. Transformers aren't entirely ruled out as one could use an air cored Guanella balun transformer to couple the output CB transistor collector to the load. The bandwidth of such a transformer is significantly less than a transformer with a ferrite or other ferromagnetic core but may be acceptable for a frequency distribution amplifier. Such transformers tend to be bulky and are thus more practical at 100MHz than 5MHz or 10MHz. Bruce From mikes at flatsurface.com Thu Sep 25 18:48:23 2008 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:48:23 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations In-Reply-To: <11b501c91f59$480d4770$4501a8c0@r44> References: <11b501c91f59$480d4770$4501a8c0@r44> Message-ID: <20080925224830.B756E1165C3@hamburg.alientech.net> At 05:54 PM 9/25/2008, f5bqp_pfm wrote... >Hi John, > >No no, I'm sure of my cal, but not sure of the station.... >I've tried to find a list of the WWW stations without success. Try searching for WWV, instead. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Thu Sep 25 20:25:17 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 12:25:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48DC124F.102@xtra.co.nz> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> <48DC124F.102@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <48DC2BED.4040506@xtra.co.nz> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Tom Clark, K3IO wrote: > >> Gerhard -- the discussion between you and Bruce has been very >> interesting. I asked a VLBI colleague to look over your design and he >> had this comment. >> In VLBI, H-Maser frequency standards used to generate local >> oscillators at microwave frequencies. We have problems with amplitude >> modulation being converted to phase modulation when hum is present. I >> notice that Bruce also uses transformers. Comments from both of you >> will be eagerly awaited! >> >> Thanks Tom. I notice the Gerhard Hoffmann circuit has a >> transformer on the outputs. Wenzell also uses transformers and we >> have found them to be a problem if there is any stray AC mag. field >> around. We have added some magnetic shielding to the UpDown >> converters to reduce the 60/120 Hz modulation which results if the >> UpDown is close to a another piece of electronics with a AC fan or >> AC transformer. I don't think 60/120 Hz is a problem for VLBI2010 >> but it can be a problem for mmvlbi. >> >> To help to decipher some of our "code words": >> * the UpDown Converter is a wideband frequency converter that takes >> an arbitrary chunk of 1-20 GHz RF and mixes it to a more convenient >> & standardized frequency to feed a polyphase filter bank. >> * VLBI2010 is design prototype effort we are doing that will use >> (relatively) small antennas operating over the entire ~2-15 GHz >> spectrum to produce geodetic measurements accurate to mm-levels on >> global baselines (up to ~10,000 km). >> * mmvlbi refers to VLBI at mm wavelengths (like 100-500 GHz) for >> astronomical measurements. Most recently, the mm observations of >> the size/structure of radiation from the area around the black >> hole in the center of our galaxy are really exciting. >> >> Regards, Tom >> >> Tom Attached partial circuits showing the output coupling circuit using either air core Ruthroff or Guanella Transformers show that these devices short out the 200 ohm output resistor in Q4 collector for DC and low frequencies. This is desirable as it reduces the dc and low frequency gain from any of the isolation amplifier transistor bases (including the bias regulation transistor) to the output transistor collector to near zero, minimising the close in phase noise contribution from these noise sources. Another advantage of using air core transformers is that they do not saturate so that dc flowing in the windings merely heats them a little due the finite dc resistance of the windings. The Guanella configuration is bulkier but is likely to have a much wider bandwidth. The air core transformers will need to be shielded to minimise crosstalk between isolation amplifiers, however shielding is required in any case the shields just need to be a bit larger. To maximise physical separation between amplifier outputs whilst minimising the physical separation of the amplifier inputs a star layout where the individual isolation amplifiers radiate from the central input may be useful. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: GuanellaOutputTransformer.gif Type: image/gif Size: 10322 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080926/1e8eaf88/attachment-0002.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: RuthroffUnumOutputTransform.gif Type: image/gif Size: 6277 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080926/1e8eaf88/attachment-0003.gif From ik1odo at spin-it.com Fri Sep 26 09:05:15 2008 From: ik1odo at spin-it.com (Marco IK1ODO -2) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:05:15 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations In-Reply-To: <11ba01c91f59$79d878b0$4501a8c0@r44> References: <11ba01c91f59$79d878b0$4501a8c0@r44> Message-ID: <200809261305.m8QD5G0Z015018@antonella2-mis-mx-out-qin.ihnet.it> At 23.55 25/09/2008, you wrote: >Hi Antonio, > >Ah yes I presume this is it ... > >Many thanks >pf Yes, it is - WWV in Europe is usually quite weak, RWM is a strong signal. You will find the schedules and frequencies of all Russian time and frequency signals (including RWM and RID, "Currently off the air due to budget cut" ) at http://www.irkutsk.com/radio/tis.htm. 73 - Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr Fri Sep 26 10:12:36 2008 From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:12:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations References: <11ba01c91f59$79d878b0$4501a8c0@r44> <200809261305.m8QD5G0Z015018@antonella2-mis-mx-out-qin.ihnet.it> Message-ID: <1f3501c91fe1$ed9000b0$4501a8c0@r44> Thanks Marco! Funny the announcement of this "budget cut"... 73's pf, F5BQP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marco IK1ODO -2" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:05 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Naive question on WWW stations > > At 23.55 25/09/2008, you wrote: >>Hi Antonio, >> >>Ah yes I presume this is it ... >> >>Many thanks >>pf > > Yes, it is - WWV in Europe is usually quite weak, RWM is a strong signal. > You will find the schedules and frequencies of all Russian time and > frequency signals (including RWM and RID, "Currently off the air due > to budget cut" ) at http://www.irkutsk.com/radio/tis.htm. > > 73 - Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > __________ Information NOD32 3472 (20080925) __________ > > Ce message a ete verifie par NOD32 Antivirus System. > http://www.nod32.com > > From scmcgrath at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 11:51:17 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:51:17 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Manual for 5061A Option H66-5061A Message-ID: All, Does anyone have the manual pages for the option H66 variant of the 5061A this unit has options 1-4 which include the high performance beam tube, I have the 5061A manual for prefix 1740 but no data on the h66 variant. I dont recall but I believe I downloaded the manual from John's site but it's no longer there - be happy to send a copy anywhere providing you can accept a large attachment or if a bunch of people want it I can WhaleMail it to you. 73 - scott n1jin From gwinn at Raytheon.com Fri Sep 26 16:21:49 2008 From: gwinn at Raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:21:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 09/24/2008 08:44:30 PM: > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:52:19 +1200, [Gerhard] wrote: > [snip] > > >For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by > >threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. > > The next iteration will have to live with BNC because R&S smpd, hp8662A, > SNA-33 & friends all have BNCs and the holes in the 19" front plate of > my GPS disciplined XO are drilled already. TNCs will fit the same hole as will BNCs. Joe Gwinn From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Sep 26 17:33:27 2008 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:33:27 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I found a nice wall clock that somebody had tossed in the trash because the battery leaked. Now to pimp it out time-nuts style: 1) Take 1 Tektronix AFG5101 Arbitrary Function Generator. 2) Configure (1) for external clock 3) Take one PTB-500 10 MHz Rubidium Frequency Standard. 4) Divide 10 MHz down to 4 MHz for the AFG5101 5) Install (1) (2) (3) and (4) into a TM5006 equipment rack. Connect to UPS power supply. 6) Program AFG5101 for bipolar clock drive waveform 7) Connect AFG5101 output to clock stepper 8) Voila, cheap and dirty accurate wall clock ;-) ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de Fri Sep 26 17:36:05 2008 From: dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de (Gerhard Hoffmann) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:36:05 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:21:49 -0400, you wrote: >> >For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by >> >threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. >> >> The next iteration will have to live with BNC because R&S smpd, hp8662A, >> SNA-33 & friends all have BNCs and the holes in the 19" front plate of >> my GPS disciplined XO are drilled already. > >TNCs will fit the same hole as will BNCs. I won't change the 8662A; as long as it works I will not open it. Hopefully for a long time. Its 10811 is probably better than the MTI 230 in the GPS, noisewise. I would like to limit this to BNC, N, SMA and maybe APC / K where it cannot be avoided. The number of converters required goes up with (n+1)**2, the +1 for male/female. And that's optimistic. regards, Gerhard From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Sep 26 17:48:47 2008 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:48:47 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 9/26/08 2:36 PM, "Gerhard Hoffmann" wrote: > On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:21:49 -0400, you wrote: > >>>> For maximum phase stability the BNC connectors should replaced by >>>> threaded connectors such as TNC, SMA , N etc. >>> >>> The next iteration will have to live with BNC because R&S smpd, hp8662A, >>> SNA-33 & friends all have BNCs and the holes in the 19" front plate of >>> my GPS disciplined XO are drilled already. >> >> TNCs will fit the same hole as will BNCs. > > I won't change the 8662A; as long as it works I will not open it. > Hopefully for a long time. Its 10811 is probably better than > the MTI 230 in the GPS, noisewise. > > I would like to limit this to BNC, N, SMA and maybe APC / K where it > cannot be avoided. > The number of converters required goes up with (n+1)**2, > the +1 for male/female. And that's optimistic. If you need >18GHz performance, then I think 2.4mm is a better choice than K. It's awfully easy to screw up the center conductor of a K connector with a SMA that's not properly assembled. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Sep 26 18:05:10 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 10:05:10 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DBEE63.2020200@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48DD5C96.8090502@xtra.co.nz> Tom Clark, K3IO wrote: > Gerhard -- the discussion between you and Bruce has been very > interesting. I asked a VLBI colleague to look over your design and he > had this comment. > In VLBI, H-Maser frequency standards used to generate local > oscillators at microwave frequencies. We have problems with amplitude > modulation being converted to phase modulation when hum is present. I > notice that Bruce also uses transformers. Comments from both of you > will be eagerly awaited! > > Thanks Tom. I notice the Gerhard Hoffmann circuit has a > transformer on the outputs. Wenzell also uses transformers and we > have found them to be a problem if there is any stray AC mag. field > around. We have added some magnetic shielding to the UpDown > converters to reduce the 60/120 Hz modulation which results if the > UpDown is close to a another piece of electronics with a AC fan or > AC transformer. I don't think 60/120 Hz is a problem for VLBI2010 > but it can be a problem for mmvlbi. > > Tom Another problem with ferromagnetic materials such as transformer cores and magnetic shields is magnetostriction. The resultant vibration can modulate component parameters. Bruce From dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de Fri Sep 26 19:39:19 2008 From: dk4xp at hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de (Gerhard Hoffmann) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 01:39:19 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <8llqd4pncvdrf1ocsgjrdq15mdjjvpotqg@4ax.com> On Thu, 25 Sep 2008 14:08:51 +1200, you wrote: >You are likely to find that its only practical to cover the 80-120Mhz >region as the NIST and Spectradynamics distribution amplifiers do. >>> The purpose of the heavy bypassing of the bases of the BFG31 transistors >>> is to reduce the low frequency noise at the BFG31 bases, this reduces >>> the amplifier close in phase noise. Yes, but capacitors have their problems, too. Ceramic ones will misbehave like piezos, converting vibration to voltage. C0G or NP0 will be to small for AF; foil caps will be inductive over a wide range; electrolytics won't be there if you need them in winter; Sanyo's contraindication list for OSCONS brings chemotherapy to mind. >> (LTspice) >It has some severe limitations for most of the simulations I have done. I'd like to hear more about this; I could evade to ADS. >Typically a CB stage has 40dB or more reverse isolation (at low >frequencies with a low impedance connection from base to ground) whilst >an emitter follower may have 10db less isolation (depends on hfe at the >frequency for which the reverse isolation is measured. Using a >darlington or Sziklai pair will improve the reverse isolation over that >of an emitter follower). In simulation with LTspice, a CB stage brings about 60 dB, which is optimistic because parasitics in the decoupling caps are not modeled (yet). The CC stage brings close to nothing, let's say 6 dB, because the forward biased BE diode does its best to keep the BE voltage drop at 0.6 V constantly. So most of what is delivered to the emitter will make it to the base, too. Total reverse isolation in simulation was abt. 130 dB with ideal capacitors. Maybe I need another CB stage. In real live, I measured abt. 100 dB reverse isolation from output to input upto 20 MHz this evening. Above that, it gradually became worse and at 60-80 MHz there was some kind of pole / notch. That was completely without shields and with coax cables that were not really network analyzer quality. Splitting the bias resistors in two and decoupling in the middle brought nothing, neither in simulation nor in measurement; but it might make a difference when the shields are soldered in. >>> If you are using thick film resistors replace them with thin film >>> resistors if you want low close in phase noise. >>> >> >> Susumu NiCr 0.1% from Digikey, next delivery.. >> >1% metal film would suffice. There isn't much choice. NiCr SMD is meant for precision. 1% resistors are thick film, usually. >You can easily measure the phase noise for low offset frequencies using >a low noise mixer with appropriate (not 50 ohm) IF termination followed >by a low noise (audio frequency) preamp driving a sound card. A 24 bit >sound card is ideal, however 16 bit sound cards just need a little more >preamp gain. No need for a PLL just split the output of a low noise OCXO >or similar source drive the mixer LO port with one output and the >isolation amplifier with the other whilst the isolation amplifier output >drives the mixer RF port. The PLL is already here. And the preamp, highpasses etc in the Wenzel appnote style. I changed it to true differential to fight offsets, with the obvious inflation in 2SK369 FETs. Matching these was no fun. This must be replaced with something more repeatable. The power consumption of the relays does no good to the offset, either. http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/IMG_0009__1000_q50.jpg I have crammed 100 meters of Aircom-plus cable into a 6 HU 19" box for 407 nsec delay. I can barely lift it :-). The _variable_ delay is under construction. Coax relays with cable delays in binary steps under computer control. Still a lot to do. Two 16 bit 2.5 MSPS digitizers are left over from an earlier project. Does anybody out there have Matlab or C code for the three-cornered-hat? > You will need to adjust the phasing between >the LO and Rf signals so that they are approximately in quadrature by >using a suitable length of coax or other means. You can even take >advantage of the 2 channel (stereo) sound card inputs to do get well >below the mixer noise and/or sound card noise floor by using cross >correlation techniques. > >For higher offset frequencies (>100kHz) a similar setup with a 50 ohm IF >port termination plus a high gain low noise amplifier can be used to >drive the input of a spectrum analyser to measure the phase noise. >>> Have you measured the input and output VSWR or reflection coefficients? >>> With real transformers the value of the 200 ohm resistor may need to be >>> adjusted to minimise the output reflection coefficient. To return to the amplifier: I'll probably go the macho way without output transformer. With twice the bias current I should be able to develop half the voltage into 25 instead of 200 Ohm. It works in simulation. I'm approaching the BFG31's limit of 100 mA here. Maybe I need 2 in parallel. I searched today for fatter alternatives to the BFG31: nothing. Having a wideband 25 Ohm load is a drawback at AF; the load could be paralleled by a choke. As long as the choke is fairly high impedance, it will do much less harm at the 25 Ohm than at the 200 Ohm level. I think there are 1uH chokes w/o ferrite in 1206. A few of them would be enough and transformer coupling does not matter. Gerhard From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Sep 26 20:49:00 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:49:00 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <8llqd4pncvdrf1ocsgjrdq15mdjjvpotqg@4ax.com> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> <8llqd4pncvdrf1ocsgjrdq15mdjjvpotqg@4ax.com> Message-ID: <48DD82FC.3050308@xtra.co.nz> Gerhard > > >> You are likely to find that its only practical to cover the 80-120Mhz >> region as the NIST and Spectradynamics distribution amplifiers do. >> >>>> The purpose of the heavy bypassing of the bases of the BFG31 transistors >>>> is to reduce the low frequency noise at the BFG31 bases, this reduces >>>> the amplifier close in phase noise. >>>> > > Yes, but capacitors have their problems, too. Ceramic ones will > misbehave like piezos, converting vibration to voltage. C0G or NP0 > will be to small for AF; foil caps will be inductive over a wide range; > electrolytics won't be there if you need them in winter; Yet another reason for temperature control? > Sanyo's > contraindication list for OSCONS brings chemotherapy to mind. > > For low voltages one could look at supercaps for filtering as some of these have relatively low esr and low leakage. However these are somewhat bulky. > >>> (LTspice) >>> >> It has some severe limitations for most of the simulations I have done. >> > > I'd like to hear more about this; I could evade to ADS. > > > I'll look at this again when I finish some fibreglass work on a 24" telescope and sort out simulation of software implementations of sigma delta and MASH DACs. >> Typically a CB stage has 40dB or more reverse isolation (at low >> frequencies with a low impedance connection from base to ground) whilst >> an emitter follower may have 10db less isolation (depends on hfe at the >> frequency for which the reverse isolation is measured. Using a >> darlington or Sziklai pair will improve the reverse isolation over that >> of an emitter follower). >> > > In simulation with LTspice, a CB stage brings about 60 dB, which is > optimistic because parasitics in the decoupling caps are not modeled (yet). > The CC stage brings close to nothing, let's say 6 dB, because the > forward biased BE diode does its best to keep the BE voltage drop > at 0.6 V constantly. So most of what is delivered to the emitter will > make it to the base, too. > The simulated reverse isolation depends critically on accurate transistor models. This is one aspect that can vary widely between simulators. 60dB is indeed optimistic. S21 for some of the older HP microwave transistors in CB configuration is listed at 0.01 to 0.005 at 100MHz on the datasheet. Surely the CC stage has somewhat higher reverse isolation than that. When the emitter current is modulated by a signal connected to the output of a CC stage via a resistor (50 ohm) then the base current is usually somewhat smaller than the emitter current. Ib = Ie/(hfe+1). Even at 100MHz at 4GHz ft transistor has a current gain of about 40 or so (provided this doesn't exceed the dc gain) so the reverse isolation of a CC stage at this frequency should be around 32 dB. At frequencies somewhat below ft the reverse isolation of a CB stage is limited by the Early effect which produces a varying Vbe for a fixed Ic and varying Vcb. This can be reduced by regulating the emitter voltage with another transistor, however this reduces the high frequency reverse isolation. This technique is very useful with a CB input stage as it also significantly reduces the distortion (provided the collector load impedance isnt too large) > Total reverse isolation in simulation was abt. 130 dB with ideal > capacitors. Maybe I need another CB stage. > > Adding another CB stage will increase the phase noise floor noise slightly. > In real live, I measured abt. 100 dB reverse isolation from output > to input upto 20 MHz this evening. Above that, it gradually became worse > and at 60-80 MHz there was some kind of pole / notch. That was completely > without shields and with coax cables that were not really network analyzer quality. > > Spectradynamics achieve about 110dB reverse isolation over the 80-120Mhz band using a similar amplifier topology in their HPDA100 distribution amplifier. > Splitting the bias resistors in two and decoupling in the middle brought nothing, > neither in simulation nor in measurement; but it might make a difference > when the shields are soldered in. > > My simulations indicate otherwise when the parasitics of real components are included. You could try measuring the attenuation of the bias network itself when RF is injected at the transistor base taps. Do this without the transistors present. >> >> 1% metal film would suffice. >> > > There isn't much choice. NiCr SMD is meant for precision. > 1% resistors are thick film, usually. > > Digikey list 1% and 0.5% Susumu thin film surface mount resistors in their catalog. Physically larger resistors can be used in the voltage divider string. >> You can easily measure the phase noise for low offset frequencies using >> a low noise mixer with appropriate (not 50 ohm) IF termination followed >> by a low noise (audio frequency) preamp driving a sound card. A 24 bit >> sound card is ideal, however 16 bit sound cards just need a little more >> preamp gain. No need for a PLL just split the output of a low noise OCXO >> or similar source drive the mixer LO port with one output and the >> isolation amplifier with the other whilst the isolation amplifier output >> drives the mixer RF port. >> > > The PLL is already here. And the preamp, highpasses etc in the > Wenzel appnote style. I changed it to true differential to fight offsets, > with the obvious inflation in 2SK369 FETs. Matching these was no fun. > This must be replaced with something more repeatable. The power consumption > of the relays does no good to the offset, either. > > If you don't need to go below 0.1Hz or even 0.01Hz then you can either use an integrator or AC coupling between stages to eliminate the amplified offset from the 2SK369's. A differential input stage makes it much easier to reject low frequency (<1Hz) power supply noise than when using a single ended input stage. You should disable the PLL for component phase noise measurements and just adjust the phase with a length of cable or similar. There is some evidence that the flicker noise of JFETs as well as BJTs can be much lower than specified on datasheets if one shields the devices from air currents and stabilises its temperature (temperature regulation for frequencies below 1 mHz , large thermal time constant enclosure for frequencies above this). Have you measured the preamp noise spectrum in the flicker region? You could use latching relays to overcome the dissipation problem as these only need to be powered long enough to latch in the new state. Since the IF port impedance of a mixer (even if terminated in a capacitor for very low noise) is relatively low, a bipolar input preamp using an SSM2220 should work well just add an integrator to control the ~1mV residual input offset . NB for low gains you may want to connect a resistor in series with a capacitor between the collectors rather than reducing the collector load resistors as Enrico suggests. > http://www.hoffmann-hochfrequenz.de/downloads/IMG_0009__1000_q50.jpg > > I have crammed 100 meters of Aircom-plus cable into a 6 HU 19" box for > 407 nsec delay. I can barely lift it :-). > The _variable_ delay is under construction. Coax relays with > cable delays in binary steps under computer control. Still a lot to do. > Two 16 bit 2.5 MSPS digitizers are left over from an earlier project. > Does anybody out there have Matlab or C code for the three-cornered-hat? > > > > To return to the amplifier: I'll probably go the macho way without > output transformer. With twice the bias current I should be able > to develop half the voltage into 25 instead of 200 Ohm. It works > in simulation. I'm approaching the BFG31's limit of 100 mA here. > Maybe I need 2 in parallel. I searched today for fatter alternatives > to the BFG31: nothing. > > Power dissipation in the transistors may be a problem at 80mA unless 2 amplifier outputs are connected in parallel. > Having a wideband 25 Ohm load is a drawback at AF; the load could be > paralleled by a choke. As long as the choke is fairly high impedance, > it will do much less harm at the 25 Ohm than at the 200 Ohm level. > I think there are 1uH chokes w/o ferrite in 1206. > A few of them would be enough and transformer coupling does not matter. > You would probably achieve better choke performance if you wind you own. If the frequency were higher a 1/4 wave shorted 50 ohm transmission line could be used to short out the 25 ohm resistor for dc and low frequencies. > Gerhard > > Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Sep 26 20:51:46 2008 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:51:46 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew 13 dBm distribution amplifier based on NIST design 5 to 100 MHz In-Reply-To: <8llqd4pncvdrf1ocsgjrdq15mdjjvpotqg@4ax.com> References: <1fkdd4p9jpu3f6sn7qmchc7n8ft7j0gaph@4ax.com> <48D71673.8080001@xtra.co.nz> <48DAF2B3.9010802@xtra.co.nz> <8llqd4pncvdrf1ocsgjrdq15mdjjvpotqg@4ax.com> Message-ID: <48DD83A2.9090002@xtra.co.nz> Gerhard Oops! I meant s12 not s21. Bruce From ghane0 at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 05:13:48 2008 From: ghane0 at gmail.com (Sanjeev Gupta) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 17:13:48 +0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Driving clocks from 1pps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <158106a0809270213y3421b9cfh4593a17b0d4707bf@mail.gmail.com> Wow. Talk about saving money :-) I am amazed at the environmentally-friendly reuse I see on this list. -- Sanjeev Gupta +65 98551208 On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 5:33 AM, Mark Sims wrote: > > I found a nice wall clock that somebody had tossed in the trash because the > battery leaked. Now to pimp it out time-nuts style: > > 1) Take 1 Tektronix AFG5101 Arbitrary Function Generator. > 2) Configure (1) for external clock > 3) Take one PTB-500 10 MHz Rubidium Frequency Standard. > 4) Divide 10 MHz down to 4 MHz for the AFG5101 > 5) Install (1) (2) (3) and (4) into a TM5006 equipment rack. Connect to > UPS power supply. > 6) Program AFG5101 for bipolar clock drive waveform > 7) Connect AFG5101 output to clock stepper > 8) Voila, cheap and dirty accurate wall clock ;-) > ---------------------------------------- > > _________________________________________________________________ > See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the > go. > http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sat Sep 27 09:05:33 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:05:33 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] PLOTTER and EZGPIB Message-ID: <96B7053935C54C8EB37087EFE6C1E08C@athlon> Gents, new versions of EZGPIB and PLOTTER are available from http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html PLOTTER now allows for an unlimited number of comment lines (lines that start with "//") in the data file. The comments are displayed in an memo field of their own. Enjoy... Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Sat Sep 27 16:43:02 2008 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 22:43:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] PLOTTER and EZGPIB In-Reply-To: <96B7053935C54C8EB37087EFE6C1E08C@athlon> Message-ID: Hello Ulrich, I like your program together with the Prologix Interface Box. So I did download your new release, but I cannot find the .exe file inside the zip file. Do I miss something? kind regards, Arnold On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:05:33 +0200, Ulrich Bangert wrote: >Gents, >new versions of EZGPIB and PLOTTER are available from >http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html >PLOTTER now allows for an unlimited number of comment lines (lines that >start with "//") in the data file. The comments are displayed in an memo >field of their own. >Enjoy... >Ulrich Bangert >www.ulrich-bangert.de >Ortholzer Weg 1 >27243 Gross Ippener From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Sep 27 17:08:49 2008 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:08:49 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Stephen Hawking unveils Chronophage clock at Cambridge In-Reply-To: Message from "Don Key" of "Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:01:17 BST." Message-ID: <20080927210850.600B3BCD2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > It's only accurate "once every 5 minutes", but it's more entertaining > than watching a caesium box :) The BBC article says: But the clock is only accurate once every five minutes - the rest of the time the lights are simply for decoration. The wikipedia article on the Grasshopper escapement http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grasshopper_escapement links to an AP article that says: Weirdly, the clock's pendulum slows down or speeds up. Sometimes it stops, the chronophage shakes a foot and the pendulum moves again. Because of that, the time display may be as much as a minute off, although it swings back to the correct time every five minutes, said Taylor. If the pendulum stops, how does it know when to start up again? Is the visual pendulum just decoration with the real timekeeping done by some other mechanism? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sun Sep 28 03:35:01 2008 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 09:35:01 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] PLOTTER and EZGPIB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19BFC80E635B4C2EA55472829C91FB2B@athlon> Arnold, oh yes, my mistake. Has been corrected! Ulrich > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Arnold Tibus > Gesendet: Samstag, 27. September 2008 22:43 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] PLOTTER and EZGPIB > > > Hello Ulrich, > I like your program together with the Prologix Interface Box. > So I did download your new release, but I cannot find the .exe file > inside the zip file. > Do I miss something? > > kind regards, > Arnold > > On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 15:05:33 +0200, Ulrich Bangert wrote: > > >Gents, > > >new versions of EZGPIB and PLOTTER are available from > >http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html >PLOTTER now allows for an unlimited number of comment lines (lines that >start with "//") in the data file. The comments are displayed in an >memo field of their own. >Enjoy... >Ulrich Bangert >www.ulrich-bangert.de >Ortholzer Weg 1 >27243 Gross Ippener _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From brice at weaponeer.com Sun Sep 28 12:06:19 2008 From: brice at weaponeer.com (brice at weaponeer.com) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 16:06:19 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Piezo Company OXCO pinouts (William Rice) Message-ID: Have a surplus Piezo Crystal Co. oscillator. 3x2x2" with 6 pins on bottom, no RF connector. Model# 2920136 / 10.000 Mhz (101728-001) Had trouble finding info.... Maybe standard configuration, 9337 stamped on unit, probably just obsolete. Any help appreciated. Did find one on ebay, my unit is not as abused. Do not know if it needs external control. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160286114515 Thanks, Bill William Rice - Austin Tx. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Sun Sep 28 17:46:12 2008 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 21:46:12 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] DIY Loran-C frequency receiver update Message-ID: <12050.1222638372@critter.freebsd.dk> Some time ago I send an email about my little project to create a LORAN-C frequency receiver for time-nuts purposes, here is an update. Hardware -------- There is a number of interesting chips on the market now which has both the necessary fast ADC and CPU power to do the job almost entirely in software. My current darling is the Analog.com ADUC7026, which seems to have the best analog section, but which needs a 42 MHz clock input to sample the antenna signal exactly 1 million times per second. A close second is the www.st.com STM32F103RBT6 which needs a 56 MHz clock to run the ADC at 1MSPS, getting 33% more CPU power at the same time. Both of these are available as cheap prototyping boards from Olimex.com/Sparkfun.com, and I'll probably order one of each soon. In both cases, an external PLL (the TAPR Clock-Block ?) will be necessary from the atomic frequency to the clock input. Software -------- The major hurdle is the small amounts of RAM and relatively few instructions available per sample on these chips. Tonight I finally have a solution for the RAM issue: I now have running code (530 lines of C, no floating point, much debugging) that will find and integrate a single loran signal, using only slightly more than GRI/10 32 bit integers of RAM. With some luck, the 8Kb RAM of the aduc7020 would be enough for a single-station receiver, the 20Kb of the STM32F103RBT6 is plenty. The CPU power issue may be slightly worse, and I need to look at how my C code looks when compiled for ARM7. As long as I can get the per-sample CPU consumption in the interrupt routine to leave a few spare clock-cycles for non-interrupt processing, it will work. Anyone interested in playing with my code can pick it up here: http://phk.freebsd.dk/misc/loran8.c You will need a source of 1MSPS sampled VLF spectrum to run it, if need be you can have a copy of the files I use for test, but it would be more fun if you tried with a local signal, to see that the code is not optimized for my location. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From bobkupiec at comcast.net Sun Sep 28 23:14:35 2008 From: bobkupiec at comcast.net (Bob Kupiec) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 23:14:35 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: <09B8A67FDDA1435E8ED0F67ACC32D70B@Inspiron> References: <09B8A67FDDA1435E8ED0F67ACC32D70B@Inspiron> Message-ID: <20080929031435.GA25988@sparky> The L-Pro rubidium oscillator is installed on the bottom cover between the front panel and the main logic board. It also requires an additional power supply which is also mounted on the bottom cover on the right side of the chassis. On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 07:58:42AM -0500, Jason Rabel wrote: > Skip, > > I've successfully converted my TS2100 IRIG to a GPS model along with several > other people. As far as I know, the Oncore module was never used (maybe a > planned future upgrade), but the ACE-III modules work just fine. > > The trick is you need to make a temporary interface with your ACE-III and > set PORT1 to 9600 8O1 TSIP in, TSIP out. The receiver is probably set to 8N1 > right now which is why it's not working. I dug through my old emails and > this bit of information might also be useful: > > TSIPMonitor32 seemed to always (re)set the receiver to 9600-8N1. My > workaround was to use the Acutime TR_Monitor (set to the pallisade receiver) > to set the baud rate, then run TSIP chat and save the seeprom settings > there. > > You should be able to find all those programs on the Trimble FTP server. No > need to mess with any jumpers or eeproms... Just be sure to flash your > firmware to the latest version (which is a couple years old at least I > think). > > As for the Rubidium upgrade, that's another can of worms. Unfortunately > nobody on the list has the LPRO model (or is admitting it), so there's no > way to know exactly how the wiring hooks up or if a second power supply is > needed, if the stock oscillator needs to be removed or not, also I'm sure > the loop and gain settings would need to be changed which one would need to > know. > > Oh, incase you were wondering, the screws that hold down the GPS module are > 2-56 x 1/4"... Tiny little suckers... > > Hope this helps, > Jason > > > I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice > > unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I > > notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the > > unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both > Oncore > > and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit > > > does not seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From besten at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 02:37:18 2008 From: besten at gmail.com (Remco den Besten) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:37:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] DIY Loran-C frequency receiver update References: <12050.1222638372@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <003101c921fd$d3db0ac0$1343892c@kalium> Hello Paul and all, With much interest I read your 'pioneering postings' concerning your 'poor mans' LORAN-C-project. > My current darling is the Analog.com ADUC7026, which seems to have the > best analog section, but which needs a 42 MHz clock input to sample > the antenna signal exactly 1 million times per second. > > A close second is the www.st.com STM32F103RBT6 which needs a 56 MHz > clock to run the ADC at 1MSPS, getting 33% more CPU power at the > same time. > In both cases, an external PLL (the TAPR Clock-Block ?) will be necessary > from the atomic frequency to the clock input. Perhaps it would be an idea to use an Rb-standard with an integrated DDS, such as the FE-5680A. It is capable of producing frequencies up to 20 MHz (and a bit higher). Let it run on 1/3 of the necessary clock frequency and multiply by 3 with a transistor in class C with subsequent filtering and clamping (after all, there are a lot of HAMs here ;;-). Perhaps with the ADUC7026 21 MHz might be possible, in that case multiplication by 2 can be achieved with EXORs. You loose, of course, a bit of precision, but the 'hazzle' is less. FE-5680A's can be obtained relatively cheaply on Ebay. Hope this speeds up your project? Remco From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 05:06:24 2008 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:06:24 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Piezo Company OXCO pinouts (William Rice) Message-ID: <1231b6a80809290206y5b4b0c81uf1c362f0a2a8b0@mail.gmail.com> Just new to this list and found this post while trawling the net for the same info. This is a manual reply to a previous posting so the message ids won't tally, sorry. --- William Rice wrote:- > Have a surplus Piezo Crystal Co. oscillator. 3x2x2" with 6 pins on bottom, no RF connector. > Model# 2920136 / 10.000 Mhz (101728-001) > Had trouble finding info.... Maybe standard configuration, 9337 stamped on unit, probably just obsolete. > Any help appreciated. > Did find one on ebay, my unit is not as abused. > Do not know if it needs external control. > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160286114515 I have a Piezo Model 2920136 10MHz oscillator which seems to be the same as in your url link above. The info I have to date for the six pins from left to right:- Out, GND, +24V, ?, Vcc, GND I don't know what the 4th (?) pin does and I also have know idea as to what voltage needs to be connected to the Vcc pin. Any help please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD Omnium finis imminet From scmcgrath at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 11:25:26 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:25:26 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Test Message-ID: Test From scmcgrath at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 11:27:55 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 11:27:55 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] test Message-ID: Test From mccorkle at ptialaska.net Mon Sep 29 17:57:03 2008 From: mccorkle at ptialaska.net (Richard H McCorkle) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:57:03 -0800 (AKDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Piezo Company OXCO pinouts (William Rice) In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80809290206y5b4b0c81uf1c362f0a2a8b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80809290206y5b4b0c81uf1c362f0a2a8b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <19424.206.174.39.163.1222725423.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net> Hello, I purchased three Piezo 2920136 units and the attached file documents what the pinouts and EFC requirements are. Hope you find this useful. Richard > Just new to this list and found this post while trawling the net for > the same info. This is a manual reply to a previous posting so the > message ids won't tally, sorry. > > --- William Rice wrote:- >> Have a surplus Piezo Crystal Co. oscillator. 3x2x2" with 6 pins on bottom, no RF >> connector. >> Model# 2920136 / 10.000 Mhz (101728-001) >> Had trouble finding info.... Maybe standard configuration, 9337 stamped on unit, >> probably just obsolete. >> Any help appreciated. >> Did find one on ebay, my unit is not as abused. >> Do not know if it needs external control. > >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160286114515 > > I have a Piezo Model 2920136 10MHz oscillator which seems to be the > same as in your url link above. The info I have to date for the six > pins from left to right:- > > Out, GND, +24V, ?, Vcc, GND > > I don't know what the 4th (?) pin does and I also have know idea as to > what voltage needs to be connected to the Vcc pin. Any help please? > > Thanks, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Piezo Mini Wonder.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 94010 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080929/2ad6fd13/attachment-0001.pdf From sar10538 at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 06:28:09 2008 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:28:09 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Piezo Company OXCO pinouts (William Rice) In-Reply-To: <19424.206.174.39.163.1222725423.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net> References: <1231b6a80809290206y5b4b0c81uf1c362f0a2a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <19424.206.174.39.163.1222725423.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80809300328p33f5cb5bi91a08fe77930627c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Richard, Many thanks for the info, this was most helpful and I have the unit running fine now. The only real difference is that my unit seems to be labelled to run off 24V and the data sheet shows 12V. My serial number is 2331 (9439) which is not listed on the pdf you sent. After the initial panic over running it off 24V for some hours to test it, I have tried it on 12V and it still seems to work fine. The difference is that the frequency has dropped about .5ppm and the case feels cooler to the touch. Now I don't know what the power voltage should be as someone else on the list mentioned the nominal is 25.5V. Let's have a vote :) Thanks for your help. Regards, Steve 2008/9/30 Richard H McCorkle : > Hello, > > I purchased three Piezo 2920136 units and the attached file documents > what the pinouts and EFC requirements are. Hope you find this useful. > > Richard > > >> Just new to this list and found this post while trawling the net for >> the same info. This is a manual reply to a previous posting so the >> message ids won't tally, sorry. >> >> --- William Rice wrote:- >>> Have a surplus Piezo Crystal Co. oscillator. 3x2x2" with 6 pins on bottom, no RF >>> connector. >>> Model# 2920136 / 10.000 Mhz (101728-001) >>> Had trouble finding info.... Maybe standard configuration, 9337 stamped on unit, >>> probably just obsolete. >>> Any help appreciated. >>> Did find one on ebay, my unit is not as abused. >>> Do not know if it needs external control. >> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160286114515 >> >> I have a Piezo Model 2920136 10MHz oscillator which seems to be the >> same as in your url link above. The info I have to date for the six >> pins from left to right:- >> >> Out, GND, +24V, ?, Vcc, GND >> >> I don't know what the 4th (?) pin does and I also have know idea as to >> what voltage needs to be connected to the Vcc pin. Any help please? >> >> Thanks, >> Steve >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD >> Omnium finis imminet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD Omnium finis imminet From didier at cox.net Tue Sep 30 07:04:54 2008 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:04:54 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Piezo Company OXCO pinouts (William Rice) In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80809300328p33f5cb5bi91a08fe77930627c@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80809290206y5b4b0c81uf1c362f0a2a8b0@mail.gmail.com><19424.206.174.39.163.1222725423.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net> <1231b6a80809300328p33f5cb5bi91a08fe77930627c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Piezo Mini Wonder info is at http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl Search for "Piezo" Didier KO4BB 2008/9/30 Richard H McCorkle : > Hello, > > I purchased three Piezo 2920136 units and the attached file > documents what the pinouts and EFC requirements are. > Hope you find this useful. > > Richard From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 09:36:47 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:36:47 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Troubleshooting a 5061A Cesium Standard Message-ID: All, Recently purchased a 5061A with a option 004 beam tube yes, yes I know about the lifespan of these tubes (anyone have any spares for sale?) however the tube looks MUCH newer than the 5061A Ion pump is about 10 at turn on and drops to near zero after an hour or so. Hot wire ionizer resistance shows correct resistance varies between .6-.8 on a fluke 83 The bad From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Sep 21 16:24:00 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:24:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: to be incorrect as the electron multiplier voltage on tube is -1691 V I have been thinking about replacing the R31 and R33 resistors with 20 turn pots adjusted to the tube values as the resistors do not seem to match the tube values. 21.41Khz @ 1VRMS injection to LF coil does not affect beam current Cs Oven 25 Crystal Oven 30 Ion Pump 0-1 Beam 0-1 Mult (Off the scale) Error reading 0 Control reading 0 2nd harmonic 0 5 Mhz 35 1 Mhz 0 (Think this is a metering problem as 1 MHz is available at the output at specified voltage) 100 Khz 35 5 Mhz Oscillator is on target it's within 6E10-10 of my Rb standard which according to my Austron 2100 has an offset of 3E10-12 Based on this information where should I begin my troubleshooting efforts? From cdelect at juno.com Tue Sep 30 13:11:01 2008 From: cdelect at juno.com (corby d dawson) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:11:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A troubleshooting Message-ID: <20080930.101102.-626979.1.cdelect@juno.com> Scott, The -.210 v one the multiplier is OK for now. The tube value is for when the tube was originally tested. As the electron multiplier in the tube ages the required voltage needs to be increased (up to a maximum of 2500VDC). If you have a manual I would suggest that you do the low frequency test. It takes a frequency at 1/2 the zeeman frequency that you apply to a pin on the underside of the unit on the long terminal board. This allows you to test the tube even if the RF circuitry is at fault. If the low frequency test fails then before blaming the tube you need to get in and measure the ionizer voltage (older units a 1VRMS square wave, new units 1VDC) and also measure the mass spectrometer voltage with the pot at max CW (about +17 to 18VDC. If everything checks out but low freq. test still fails increase the EM voltage to 2500VDC and repeat the test. If no low frequency response by now the tube has a high probability if beaing dead! If the test is good then your problem lies in the RF circuitry somewhere. Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find affordable degree programs. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3l8Op2dKMrmSXhHChrYqlJXFP6LXoDtx9dtYTJzdmc3WCvct/ From phase3 at wcc.net Tue Sep 30 13:48:46 2008 From: phase3 at wcc.net (phase3 at wcc.net) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:48:46 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b Message-ID: <013e01c92324$d734b400$b500a8c0@billcomp> Hi: This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to know where I might obtain new battery pack. Bill W5STP From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 14:00:57 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:00:57 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <013e01c92324$d734b400$b500a8c0@billcomp> References: <013e01c92324$d734b400$b500a8c0@billcomp> Message-ID: Your local Batteries Plus franchise will rebuild the pack for about 80 bucks this is what I did with mine. If it's been removed the specs are as follows. NICAD 2.2 AH 24 VDC Nominal New ones from Agilent are in the 'don't even ask price category' On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, wrote: > Hi: > > > > This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to > know where I might obtain > > new battery pack. > > > > Bill > > W5STP > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From brooke at pacific.net Tue Sep 30 14:14:11 2008 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:14:11 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <013e01c92324$d734b400$b500a8c0@billcomp> References: <013e01c92324$d734b400$b500a8c0@billcomp> Message-ID: <48E26C73.1070905@pacific.net> Hi Bill: There may be some very reasonably priced alternatives. Can you send me a photo of the pack? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam phase3 at wcc.net wrote: > Hi: > > > > This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to > know where I might obtain > > new battery pack. > > > > Bill > > W5STP > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 14:14:54 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:14:54 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20080930.101102.-626979.1.cdelect@juno.com> References: <20080930.101102.-626979.1.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: How does one increase the EM voltage? I do have the manual and I have done the LF test but the ionizer and mass spec voltages were what I was looking for On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:11 PM, corby d dawson wrote: > Scott, > > The -.210 v one the multiplier is OK for now. The tube value is for when > the tube was originally tested. As the electron multiplier in the tube > ages the required voltage needs to be increased (up to a maximum of > 2500VDC). > > If you have a manual I would suggest that you do the low frequency test. > > It takes a frequency at 1/2 the zeeman frequency that you apply to a pin > on the underside of the unit on the long terminal board. > > This allows you to test the tube even if the RF circuitry is at fault. > > If the low frequency test fails then before blaming the tube you need to > get in and measure the ionizer voltage (older units a 1VRMS square wave, > new units 1VDC) and also measure the mass spectrometer voltage with the > pot at max CW (about +17 to 18VDC. > > If everything checks out but low freq. test still fails increase the EM > voltage to 2500VDC and repeat the test. > > If no low frequency response by now the tube has a high probability if > beaing dead! > > If the test is good then your problem lies in the RF circuitry > somewhere. > > Corby Dawson > ____________________________________________________________ > Click here to find affordable degree programs. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3l8Op2dKMrmSXhHChrYqlJXFP6LXoDtx9dtYTJzdmc3WCvct/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From phase3 at wcc.net Tue Sep 30 14:26:53 2008 From: phase3 at wcc.net (Bill) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:26:53 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <015c01c9232a$2378fce0$b500a8c0@billcomp> Scott: Thanks for your courtesy. Somehow I knew that I should avoid HP with such a request. I worked at Collins Radio in years past and when I had to go to HP with a part or manual request, it was cheaper to ask for a 'sample.' Thanks again. Bill W5STP -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Scott McGrath Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:01 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b Your local Batteries Plus franchise will rebuild the pack for about 80 bucks this is what I did with mine. If it's been removed the specs are as follows. NICAD 2.2 AH 24 VDC Nominal New ones from Agilent are in the 'don't even ask price category' On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, wrote: > Hi: > > > > This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to > know where I might obtain > > new battery pack. > > > > Bill > > W5STP > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From phase3 at wcc.net Tue Sep 30 14:40:35 2008 From: phase3 at wcc.net (Bill) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:40:35 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <48E26C73.1070905@pacific.net> Message-ID: <015d01c9232c$0daeea30$b500a8c0@billcomp> Brooke: Thanks for the rapid response. I will have to take a picture to get it to you but it is 6 5/8" X 5 3/8" and thick enough to accommodate a type "c" cell. Also, just before I read your response, I received another indicating Batteries Plus will build an exact replacement for about $80.00. Not bad considering HP wanted my right arm and subservience of my first grandchild for life! Thanks for your courtesy and would appreciate hearing about your alternatives. Bill W5STP -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:14 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b Hi Bill: There may be some very reasonably priced alternatives. Can you send me a photo of the pack? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam phase3 at wcc.net wrote: > Hi: > > > > This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to > know where I might obtain > > new battery pack. > > > > Bill > > W5STP > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 14:43:39 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:43:39 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <015c01c9232a$2378fce0$b500a8c0@billcomp> References: <015c01c9232a$2378fce0$b500a8c0@billcomp> Message-ID: Yor're welcome - Brooke is also a fount of knowledge about things time related and he has much more experience than I. 73 Scott N1JIN On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Bill wrote: > Scott: > > Thanks for your courtesy. Somehow I knew that I should avoid HP with > such a request. I worked at Collins Radio in years past and when I had > to go to HP with a part or manual request, it was cheaper to ask for a > 'sample.' > > Thanks again. > > Bill > W5STP > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Scott McGrath > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:01 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b > > Your local Batteries Plus franchise will rebuild the pack for about 80 > bucks this is what I did with mine. If it's been removed the specs > are as follows. > > NICAD > 2.2 AH > 24 VDC Nominal > > New ones from Agilent are in the 'don't even ask price category' > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 1:48 PM, wrote: >> Hi: >> >> >> >> This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like > to >> know where I might obtain >> >> new battery pack. >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> W5STP >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 14:46:05 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:46:05 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <015d01c9232c$0daeea30$b500a8c0@billcomp> References: <48E26C73.1070905@pacific.net> <015d01c9232c$0daeea30$b500a8c0@billcomp> Message-ID: What batteries plus does is replace the cells in the original housing and they can rebuild just about anything that uses batteries. We have one in Manchester NH and I use them a lot. On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Bill wrote: > Brooke: > > Thanks for the rapid response. I will have to take a picture to get it > to you but it is > 6 5/8" X 5 3/8" and thick enough to accommodate a type "c" cell. > > Also, just before I read your response, I received another indicating > Batteries > Plus will build an exact replacement for about $80.00. Not bad > considering HP > wanted my right arm and subservience of my first grandchild for life! > > Thanks for your courtesy and would appreciate hearing about your > alternatives. > > Bill > W5STP > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Brooke Clarke > Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:14 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b > > Hi Bill: > > There may be some very reasonably priced alternatives. > Can you send me a photo of the pack? > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke, N6GCE > http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell > http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html > name > http://www.PRC68.com > http://www.precisionclock.com > http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam > > phase3 at wcc.net wrote: >> Hi: >> >> >> >> This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like > to >> know where I might obtain >> >> new battery pack. >> >> >> >> Bill >> >> W5STP >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From cdelect at juno.com Tue Sep 30 14:58:02 2008 From: cdelect at juno.com (corby d dawson) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:58:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A troubleshooting Message-ID: <20080930.115802.-626979.4.cdelect@juno.com> Scott, I'm not sure how late a model you have but on the A15 board you should see a place for two resistors that are connected on the board in parallel. If you connect a high resitance decade resistor (start at 10Megs) across one of the resistors. Now while monitoring the EM divided voltage reduce the decade resistor until the EM test point increses to .25VDC. Now solder a 1% resistor of this value across the one of the other existing resistors. Now you are set up for 2500VDC EM voltage. Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oJtoeZD8bdFl3HM6Qnrf4dkHES7UXgr2gqDl1I14G8tilHb/ From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 15:14:20 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:14:20 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A troubleshooting In-Reply-To: <20080930.115802.-626979.4.cdelect@juno.com> References: <20080930.115802.-626979.4.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: Ah, I do have the 2 resistors on the A15 - I do have the late model oven controller so my ionizer shoud be DC correct? Now the only problem which remains is the sourcing of a spare tube - Scott On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:58 PM, corby d dawson wrote: > Scott, > > I'm not sure how late a model you have but on the A15 board you should > see a place for two resistors that are connected on the board in > parallel. > > If you connect a high resitance decade resistor (start at 10Megs) across > one of the resistors. > > Now while monitoring the EM divided voltage reduce the decade resistor > until the EM test point increses to .25VDC. > > Now solder a 1% resistor of this value across the one of the other > existing resistors. > > Now you are set up for 2500VDC EM voltage. > > > Corby Dawson > ____________________________________________________________ > Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oJtoeZD8bdFl3HM6Qnrf4dkHES7UXgr2gqDl1I14G8tilHb/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From scmcgrath at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 15:35:23 2008 From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:35:23 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061A troubleshooting In-Reply-To: References: <20080930.115802.-626979.4.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: You mentioned building a -3500 volt supply - why not use one of the Ion pump supply units? On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Scott McGrath wrote: > Ah, > > I do have the 2 resistors on the A15 - I do have the late model oven > controller so my ionizer shoud be DC correct? > > Now the only problem which remains is the sourcing of a spare tube > > - Scott > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 2:58 PM, corby d dawson wrote: >> Scott, >> >> I'm not sure how late a model you have but on the A15 board you should >> see a place for two resistors that are connected on the board in >> parallel. >> >> If you connect a high resitance decade resistor (start at 10Megs) across >> one of the resistors. >> >> Now while monitoring the EM divided voltage reduce the decade resistor >> until the EM test point increses to .25VDC. >> >> Now solder a 1% resistor of this value across the one of the other >> existing resistors. >> >> Now you are set up for 2500VDC EM voltage. >> >> >> Corby Dawson >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Click here to become a professional counselor in less time than you think. >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3oJtoeZD8bdFl3HM6Qnrf4dkHES7UXgr2gqDl1I14G8tilHb/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > From GDowd at symmetricom.com Tue Sep 30 20:57:27 2008 From: GDowd at symmetricom.com (Greg Dowd) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:57:27 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 In-Reply-To: <09B8A67FDDA1435E8ED0F67ACC32D70B@Inspiron> References: <09B8A67FDDA1435E8ED0F67ACC32D70B@Inspiron> Message-ID: I'm surprised that this worked. In theory, it shouldn't have. While you can plug it in, you should have received an error when you tried to change the mode to GPS. I think somebody in the manufacturing process must have decided that it was easier just to build all GPS versions after the merger. Anyway, glad to hear that it worked. You are correct that the default Trimble config on our modules was 9600,8,O,1 with TSIP. You may still have some problem with a phase offset. Long, long ago, when I originally did this code, the gps receiver was an external Acutime with an open collector PPS. As such, we were triggering on the falling edge. At some point, someone was supposed to throw an inverter on the CM3-T, then ACE, then ACE-II, then ACE-III PPS line but I think it got lost. End result was that I had some bits programmed into the seeprom at the factory to select different offset compensation as the pulse width kept changing and I was still triggering on the falling edge. You can probably use the prop delay feature to correct. And, with respect to all the noise about tech support, they do pretty well. They have to support 3 completely unique product lines (Datum, Truetime & Symm) and no one does training on any of the obsolete stuff. It is expensive to support these legacy products when the ntp server market is really a commodity one. And, honestly, if you had called me at Datum (or bancomm) and asked how to modify an IRIG unit to GPS, I would have sold you an upgrade kit (which cost $1k). The days of schematics in the back of the manual were over long before the merger. Greg Dowd gdowd at symmetricom dot com (antispam format) Symmetricom, Inc. www.symmetricom.com "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler" Albert Einstein -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Jason Rabel Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 5:59 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help with Datum/Symmetricom TymServe TS2100 Skip, I've successfully converted my TS2100 IRIG to a GPS model along with several other people. As far as I know, the Oncore module was never used (maybe a planned future upgrade), but the ACE-III modules work just fine. The trick is you need to make a temporary interface with your ACE-III and set PORT1 to 9600 8O1 TSIP in, TSIP out. The receiver is probably set to 8N1 right now which is why it's not working. I dug through my old emails and this bit of information might also be useful: TSIPMonitor32 seemed to always (re)set the receiver to 9600-8N1. My workaround was to use the Acutime TR_Monitor (set to the pallisade receiver) to set the baud rate, then run TSIP chat and save the seeprom settings there. You should be able to find all those programs on the Trimble FTP server. No need to mess with any jumpers or eeproms... Just be sure to flash your firmware to the latest version (which is a couple years old at least I think). As for the Rubidium upgrade, that's another can of worms. Unfortunately nobody on the list has the LPRO model (or is admitting it), so there's no way to know exactly how the wiring hooks up or if a second power supply is needed, if the stock oscillator needs to be removed or not, also I'm sure the loop and gain settings would need to be changed which one would need to know. Oh, incase you were wondering, the screws that hold down the GPS module are 2-56 x 1/4"... Tiny little suckers... Hope this helps, Jason > I have recently acquired a Datum TS2100-IRIG NTP time server. Nice > unit, and I do have IRIG-B to feed it, however, reading the manual I > notice that there is a GPS version as well. Upon taking the top of the > unit off I notice that there are the connector and standoffs for both Oncore > and Trimble ACE-III sized receivers. Tried plugging both in, but the unit > does not seem to recognize it (always reports GPS receiver busy). _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jltran at worldnet.att.net Tue Sep 30 21:43:14 2008 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:43:14 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] HP105b In-Reply-To: <015d01c9232c$0daeea30$b500a8c0@billcomp> Message-ID: Brooke and Bill, I purchased a 105B several months ago and my battery pack was dead as well. It uses 20 size D cells in a 4 X 5 layout with the batteries positive up alternating with negative up and connected in such a manner that you have about 2.4 Volts or 0 Volts when measuring from the 'tail' of an arrow to the 'tip' of the arrow as shown in the attached picture of the cover of the battery pack. The battery in the position just above the "+24V" is + up, the one at the 'tip' of the arrow above it is - up and so on with the batteries connected with spot welded tabs. I had a new pack made up by the local battery shop out of higher capacity batteries (5 AH as I recall) and the charger circuit seems to keep it working very well. After a full charge, it will last about 8 hours after pulling the AC plug. I have mine running now for just over a week being disciplined by a Brooks Shera controller card driven by the 1 PPS from a TBolt. When comparing the 5 MHz out of the 105B to the 10 MHz out of the TBolt in a 'X Y' manner on the oscilloscope, the lissagous figure is 'frozen in time'. Simply amazing! All I have to do now is to come up with a way to convert the 24V from the battery pack to the voltages required for the TBolt (+/-12V and +5V) and the controller card (+/-5 to 12V)and I will have a battery backed up stand alone system with two (sort of) independent frequency sources. 24V should be available on pin D of J3 on the back of the 105B. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bill Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:41 PM To: brooke at pacific.net; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b Brooke: Thanks for the rapid response. I will have to take a picture to get it to you but it is 6 5/8" X 5 3/8" and thick enough to accommodate a type "c" cell. Also, just before I read your response, I received another indicating Batteries Plus will build an exact replacement for about $80.00. Not bad considering HP wanted my right arm and subservience of my first grandchild for life! Thanks for your courtesy and would appreciate hearing about your alternatives. Bill W5STP -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 1:14 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP105b Hi Bill: There may be some very reasonably priced alternatives. Can you send me a photo of the pack? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke, N6GCE http://www.prc68.com/P/Prod.html Products I make and sell http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml All my web pages listed based on html name http://www.PRC68.com http://www.precisionclock.com http://www.prc68.com/I/WebCam2.shtml 24/7 Sky-Weather-Astronomy Web Cam phase3 at wcc.net wrote: > Hi: > > > > This is my first email on time-nuts. I have an HP105b and would like to > know where I might obtain > > new battery pack. > > > > Bill > > W5STP > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 105B Battery Pack.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 38968 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20080930/ea6a025c/attachment-0001.pdf From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Sep 21 16:24:00 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:24:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: electric constant of the cable can lead to significant errors based on the = actual quality of the cable. =A0 Even so called "high quality" cable can have large variations within a give= n manufacturing run of cables. =A0 Amateur radio operators often cut delay lines for antennas.=A0 Even on HF (= below 30 MHz) I have seen errors up to 10% between calculated length and m= easured length. =A0 Jeff Jeffrey K. Okamitsu, PhD, MBA +1-609-638-5402 --- On Fri, 10/3/08, Hal Murray wrote: From: Hal Murray Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC Connector On HP 5061B To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Date: Friday, October 3, 2008, 1:51 PM > On the DA you will want to ensure all your output cables are of > identical length as this will ensure that all signals are in phase at > the timebase input(s). It's a small thing really a fraction of a > picosecond but it's there and easily compensated for.=20 If you are after picoseconds, you have to match cable lengths very carefull= y. The rule of thumb is a foot per nanosecond. Coax is slower: roughly 1/2 fo= r=20 junk but faster for good (low loss) coax. The way I remember the number for fibers (and good coax) is that 1 ft/ns=20 would be 5 microseconds per mile. Fiber is 5 microseconds per kilometer. All you need to calculate the speed of light is the dielectric constant. = =20 (I'd have to dig out a book to find the formula. It's probably k/squt(e)) =20 Good coax is mostly air which reduces the dielectric constant and speeds up= =20 light. Similarly, traces on the outside layers of a PCB (half air if you= =20 neglect the solder mask) are faster than traces on inside layers. Good coax uses foam rather than solid dielectric. It's mostly air which=20 reduces the dielectric constant. --=20 These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nu= ts and follow the instructions there. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Sep 21 16:24:00 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:24:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: "To prevent confusion with the frame sequences and , every byte in the data string is preceded by an extra byte ('stuffing'). These extra bytes must be added ('stuffed') before sending a packet and removed after receiving the packet." Ed, k1ggi -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hank Sent: Saturday, October 04, 2008 11:51 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] THUNBERBOLT PACKET 0X8F-AB While writing my own software to display time and other status information, I have noticed a very strange item when packet 0x8F-AB is being sent out. Normally this packet has 17 bytes with 0XAB being byte 0 While the time is being displayed by the new software, I noticed that every time the seconds reached 16 the display would be incorrect. Wrote a special test routine, and there is an extra byte being sent by the Thunderbolt ( firmware REV E ) only for the packet that has seconds equal to 16. ( 16 or 10h ) is send twice !! Has anyone that is writing display software seen this or any other problem in the formats ? I also verified this issue using Procom terminal software that has a monitor window and captures the data in HEX format !! Hank _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bogus@does.not.exist.com Sun Sep 21 16:24:00 2008 From: bogus@does.not.exist.com () Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:24:00 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: was explained to me that they have older firmware in them and will not work unless they had the new week rollover number programmed into them. Most, as I said, have old firmware, before the new rollover was introduced. I believe right now only two of mine work. I used to have three working, but, one of them quit a few years ago, for no apparent reason. With too many projects, I have not had much time to look into it. Also, programming them from the front panel is a real pain. Regards - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 10:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Help - Datum 9390 GPS Time Code &FrequencyGenerator Sounds like you're doing everything right. 9390s are plug-and-play by nature, so I'd have to wonder if there's some front-end damage to the GPS receiver. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Myers, Charlie > Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 6:59 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Need Help - Datum 9390 GPS Time Code & > FrequencyGenerator > Importance: High > > > I recently obtained a Datum model# 9390-52321 GPS Time Code & Frequency > Generator. This unit has a Rubidium time base. > > I hooked the unit up to my Motorola GPS2000 GPS antenna (which is > mounted on the roof of my house) and powered the unit up, but I can't > seem to get the unit to see the satellites. I keep getting the > following error message on the LCD display, "Signal Level Low" followed > by the status message, "GPS Time Not Acquired". > > I checked the antenna and transmission line and they seem to be okay > because they operate my HP z3801A GPS time/frequency receiver just fine > and I get plenty of satellite signal level on the HP receiver. I > checked the +5 volts on the antenna connector on the back of the Datum > unit and that measures correctly. > > Does anyone have any ideas where to look or what other tests to perform > to isolate this problem? > > Thanks for any assistance you can provide me. > > Charlie Myers > WA3RAD > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.