[time-nuts] RF mixers for oscillator characterization, some questions

Arnold Tibus Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de
Sun Apr 19 22:32:48 UTC 2009


Bruce,

I will try it, I looked aready to that homepage. 
The point is, a lot of distributors do sell only to registrated 
companies with a tax number, no chance for a private person 
to get anything. Ulrich does have therefore no problems with that issue 
I suppose. It was easier for me when I was still in our Aircraft and 
Satellite building company. 
But I will try it the next working days.

I see the points you explain, reasonable. But there I have still 
no problems with my fingers to modify and manipulate even 
very small hardware, if the inner parts are held well together, 
I could fix everything in a new small housing with new connections. 
It would even be possible to fit in the mentioned additional 
isolating transformes. Hopefully it will not create new unsymmetries 
(but the use is for LF).

Arnold

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:00:29 +1200, Bruce Griffiths wrote:

>Arnold

>Arnold Tibus wrote:
>> Bruce, 
>>
>> a very good summary!
>> I do not know where I can get the proposed MinCircuits DBM 
>> here, I looked to all the big and international well known 
>> supplier of electronics parts with negativ result. 
>>
>> If I have to import them from USA they could end up even above 
>> 100 $ ea. we have in Europe to take the high shipment costs 
>> and the 19% VAT into account.  
>>
>> Is it likely to get used mixers with damaged diodes?
>>
>> Did somebody alredy look inside the metal case of the 10514A?
>> Will it perhaps possible to reconnect the common ground connections 
>> such a way that the mentioned loops can be opened?
>>
>>   
>Not without changing the IF port connector or at least insulating its
>shell from ground.
>It may be easier just to construct you own mixer if you cant easily
>obtain the PCB mount Mincircuits mixers that have separate IF and RF
>grounds.
>Another alternative is to use a couple of RF transformers to isolate the
>mixer common ground from the RF source grounds and just have the mixer
>IF port grounded via its coax cable.
>If necessary you can easily wind you own RF transformers if you can
>obtain suitable ferrite cores.
>I thought that there was a Minicircuits distributor in
>Germany(http://www.municom.de/products/products960.php).
>Ulrich may know more about this.
>> Thank you Bruce,
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 08:51:50 +1200, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>
>>   
>>> Arnold
>>>     
>>
>>   
>>> Arnold Tibus wrote:
>>>     
>>>> Bruce, Magnus, Pete, 
>>>>
>>>> sorry for being late responding, but the Easter Holydays ... 
>>>> they are over now :(
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for the informations giving me some more ideas! 
>>>>
>>>> I am still wondering about the specials of these mixers. 
>>>> What are their secrets, what the differences to "normal" or high level DBMs? 
>>>> Is high level a criteria?
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>
>>   
>>> The dc offset at the mixer IF output (a measure of the diode matching
>>> and transformer balance) should be low as should its drift.
>>> The real criterion is low mixer phase noise particularly at low offset
>>> frequencies.
>>> The 10514 and 10534 are reputed to have low flicker phase noise.
>>>     
>>
>>   
>>> Using a high level mixer as suggested by NIST does have the advantage of
>>> allowing a preamp with higher input noise to be used to amplify the low
>>> pass filtered IF port output.
>>>     
>>>> There are some companies selling the 10514A with SMB connectors. 
>>>> I have no idea what is a good or reasonable price fore and if I am running 
>>>> into possible risks to get deaf ones, for totally around $ 100,- ?
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>> That price appears significantly higher than the Minicircuits price:
>>> http://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ZP-10514.pdf
>>> However there is no guarantee that the modern 10514's use discrete
>>> diodes or what their flicker phase noise characteristics are.
>>>     
>>
>>
>>   
>>> A mixer which has a common IF, LO and RF grounds is susceptible to low
>>> frequency ground loop noise.
>>> However you can use RF transformers at the RF and LOP ports to break the
>>> ground loops.
>>>     
>>>> In may 2007 there was aleady a short discours about the 10514A. 
>>>> Rick mentioned that today it could be possible to build a considerably better 
>>>> design with currently available technology. 
>>>>
>>>> Does it mean it is really possible to build a DBM with currently available 
>>>> diodes, transformer cores etc. with similar or better characteristics 
>>>> as the old known commercial types? Or did he think to special chip 
>>>> designs?
>>>> Are there no real merits anymore with the famous old hp 10514A? 
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>> They were widely used for such measurements and their phase noise was
>>> well characterised.
>>> You can achieve better diode matching with monolithic diode quads,
>>> however the flicker noise of such quads is reputed to be higher than
>>> equivalent discrete diode quads.
>>>     
>>>> Would be interesting to learn more about.
>>>>
>>>> Arnold
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 11:40:41 +1200, Bruce Griffiths wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>>> Bruce Griffiths skrev:
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> Pete wrote:
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>>>> Arnold,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have had good experience with the SYPD series
>>>>>>>> from Mini-circuits. I have not seen any used, but
>>>>>>>> their new cost is reasonable. They do several things
>>>>>>>> well e.g. the DC offset on the units I received is
>>>>>>>> <1mV & they produce >2V p-p when driven @
>>>>>>>> +7dBm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pete Rawson
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>>       
>>>>>>>>           
>>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>> Pete
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are OK except when one needs to isolate the IF ground from the RF
>>>>>>> grounds to avoid low frequency ground loop problems.
>>>>>>> The RPD and MPD through hole series are better in this regard as they
>>>>>>> allow the IF ground to be isolated from the RF grounds.
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> It should be noted that several of their SMB mixers have separated 
>>>>>> grounds, but it is not documented in their datasheets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> The flicker phase noise characteristics of the mixer/phase detector
>>>>>>> should be measured as some mixers/phase detectors have lower flicker
>>>>>>> phase noise than others.
>>>>>>> The termination of the IF port will affect the mixer phase noise. For
>>>>>>> offset frequencies < 100kHz a capacitive termination of the IF port
>>>>>>> which reflects the sum frequency back into the mixer reduces the mixer
>>>>>>> phase noise.
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> It essentially sees a very low impedance at those frequencies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My experiments with capacitive loading of mixers basically indicates 
>>>>>> that the actual low-frequency slope of an unloaded mixer does not 
>>>>>> change, but the capacitor load filters the sum-frequency (with 
>>>>>> overtones) while a resistive 50 ohm load just loads the amplitude down 
>>>>>> and gives no significant change to performance. Optimum performance out 
>>>>>> of a mixer in my experience comes from fairly high-impedance load at low 
>>>>>> frequencies with a direct capacitive loading for filtering effects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A non-filtered response is quite interesting to see with a fairly slow 
>>>>>> beating frequency occuring. Kind of soothing waveforms floating slowly 
>>>>>> as waves over the scope.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>> The effect of reflecting the sum frequency back into the mixer is
>>>>> documented in some Watkins Johnson and HP/Agilent appliction notes.
>>>>> It can be very effective even at microwave frequencies.
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>>>> The tradeoff is that the mixer output at higher offset
>>>>>>> frequencies is attenuated by the IF port termination.
>>>>>>> Terminating the IF port in a capacitor reduces the RF port impedance, so
>>>>>>> that a low value series resistor (22 to 39 ohms - select for lowest
>>>>>>> VSWR) is then required to improve the RF port VSWR.
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> Which in improves phase-stability as reflected waves has less impact.
>>>>>> -3 dB pads have also been used by the good folks over at NIST at one time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> The best combination is a series resistor plus an attenuator pad.
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>>>> Terminating the IF port with a capacitor also alters the mixer gain (as
>>>>>>> a phase detector) so this needs to be measured in conjunction with the noise
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> Well... the normal 50 Ohm loading alters the mixer gain... not the cap. 
>>>>>> But since the normation is towards 50 Ohm... ah well...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>>>> 10514 and 10534 mixers using discrete diodes supposedly have lower
>>>>>>> flicker noise than mixers using integrated quad diodes.
>>>>>>>     
>>>>>>>         
>>>>>>>             
>>>>>> They however has common ground in their every day laboratory variants. 
>>>>>> There exist variants meant for production. However, they are not made 
>>>>>> out of that exquisite components, so their performance should be 
>>>>>> replicable, as have been pointed out before.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   
>>>>>>       
>>>>>>           
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> The B versions intended for through hole PCB mount have separate grounds
>>>>> for all ports.
>>>>> These don't seem to be as widely available as they once were although I
>>>>> have an HP10534B one.
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Magnus
>>>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>       
>>>>> Bruce
>>>>>     
>>>>>         
>>   
>Bruce








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