From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 01:27:17 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:27:17 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: The Google patent search is a very useful for studying GPS technology, precision oscillators, etc. It has been extremely reliable in the past, but today it started giving an error message after downloading only 5 patents. The error message is: Google Error Forbidden Your client does not have permission to get URL /patents/download/xxx.pdf?id=yyyy from this server. Rebooting and clearing the cookies didn't help. I have a static IP, so Google knows when I am trying to download a patent, and it gives this error message instead. There are a few other free patent services, but they require logging on, they aren't as easy to use, and they don't have the search options that google has. They also give larger pdf files than google. For example, here is US patent #6134065 by an old friend, Steve Brittenham, who used to work at HP Boisie: Service Bytes FreePatent : 80,794 Wikipatent : 543,465 Google : 66,014 The urls are http://www.freepatentsonline.com/ http://www.wikipatents.com/ Another service I often use is www.pat2pdf.org, but it seems to be offline today. So the best option is still google, but how to get around the static ip problem? The solution is a free proxy. There are many on the web - this one works fine: http://www.freeproxysite.com/ I used the "TOP 10 proxies by clicks", and selected German-Proxy.de From there, I went to http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search?hl=en&num=30 entered a patent number, and downloaded it with no problems. I don't know what is causing the problem at google, but this appears to solve it. If you run into this and find it starts giving problems again, just select another proxy and continue working! Mike From john at pcsupportsolutions.com Wed Jul 1 05:37:14 2009 From: john at pcsupportsolutions.com (John Allen) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 01:37:14 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] [time-nuts ]Plug and play GPSDOs was:(no subject) In-Reply-To: <332312.56078.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4A4A12E7020000690001710C@gwmail.jr2.ox.ac.uk> <332312.56078.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This seller in CA is selling for $120 or less. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160331810845 John, K1AE 1.8 MHz - 10 GHz. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of dave powis Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:59 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] (no subject) Hi David, I don't know the Chinese ones, but I was lucky enough to get one of the TAPR offer TBolts - and it really was P&P - yes, I attached a PC and used the TBolt monitoring utility to confirm it was all working OK, but that was all. It now sits in my shack outputing 10MHz very nicely. 73, Dave ________________________________ From: David Hilton-Jones To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009 1:28:07 PM Subject: [time-nuts] (no subject) I am not very much interested in how it is achieved, but wonder if a 10MHz oscillator locked to GPS is now available as "plug&play" rather than needing a lot of time/effort/building. I note the Thunderbolt units available from the Far East on ebay for~?80gbp. Are these really P&P - that is, just connect PSU and aerial and out comes 10MHz locked to GPS? Is it necessary to connect to a computer via the RS232 link, or is that just there if you want to fiddle and be clever? If so, then this may be preferrable to running my rubidium source continuously. What I am interested in is stability, not ultiamte accuracy. As always, sorry for the naivety of the question. Thanks David, G4YTL _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 06:17:51 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:17:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] FE-150A 5 MHz Message-ID: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator reference source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and also gives 1 pps. I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source and if it looks good, package it with a power supply. Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this thing again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit from the mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 "Time-Frequency Standard, Disiplined". The document that describes it is MIL-T-28816. There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want money. I also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are typical IEEE unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has MIL-T-28816 for free: http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The pages with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- figures 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't found a better source. I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the three pages of drawings. thanks, -Rex, KK6MK From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 1 06:24:38 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: <494315.7627.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Mike, Try http://ep.espacenet.com/ It's an offical european site that also searches US and World Patents. Very flexible search options and no registration required. You do have to type in the code from a graphic image if you want to download a full PDF. That is a small price to pay to keep the bots out. Robert G8RPI. --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Mike Monett wrote: > From: Mike Monett > Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:27 AM > ? The Google? patent? > search? > is???a???very? > useful? for? studying GPS > ? technology, precision? > oscillators,???etc.???It? > has? been extremely > ? reliable in? the past, but today it started > giving an? error message > ? after downloading only 5 patents. The error message > is: > > ? Google Error > > ? Forbidden Your client does not have permission to > get URL > > ? /patents/download/xxx.pdf?id=yyyy from this server. > > ? Rebooting and clearing the cookies didn't help. I > have a? static IP, > ? so Google knows when I am trying to download a > patent, and? it gives > ? this error message instead. > > ? There are a few other free patent services, but they > require logging > ? on, they? aren't? as? easy to use, > and they? don't? have? the search > ? options that? google? has.? They > also? give? larger? pdf? files than > ? google. For? example, here is US patent > #6134065 by? an? old friend, > ? Steve Brittenham, who used to work at HP Boisie: > > ? Service? ? ? Bytes > > ? FreePatent : 80,794 > ? Wikipatent : 543,465 > ? Google? ???: 66,014 > > ? The urls are > > ? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/ > ? http://www.wikipatents.com/ > > ? Another service? I often use is > www.pat2pdf.org, but it seems? to be > ? offline today. > > ? So the best option is still google, but how to get > around the static > ? ip problem? > > ? The solution? is a free proxy. There are many > on the web -? this one > ? works fine: > > ? http://www.freeproxysite.com/ > > ? I used the "TOP 10 proxies by clicks", and selected > German-Proxy.de > > ? From there, I went to > > ? http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search?hl=en&num=30 > > ? entered a patent number, and downloaded it with no > problems. > > ? I don't know what is causing the problem at google, > but this appears > ? to solve it. If you run into this and find it starts > giving problems > ? again, just select another proxy and continue > working! > ? > ? Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 1 12:21:24 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:21:24 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] DM specs Message-ID: <4A4B54C4.5010806@rubidium.dyndns.org> Fellow Time-nuts, I have an DM C146-10-1 element and would wish to get hold of the specs for it. If you have those and for that matter other DM elements, I'd be happy to get them. DM was swamped into EDO and I can't find them on their site. Your assistance would be apprechiated. Cheers, Magnus From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 13:55:36 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken References: Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) >From: Robert Atkinson >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken >Hi Mike, > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/ It's an offical european site that > also searches US and World Patents. Very flexible search options > and no registration required. You do have to type in the code from > a graphic image if you want to download a full PDF. That is a > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > Robert G8RPI. Hi Robert, Thanks very much for the reply and the link. That looks like a useful site, especially for European and Japanese patents. How do you "type in the code from a graphic image"? I guess you mean to enter a captcha, but couldn't see any box to enter a code. It found US6134065 with no problem, and all I had to do was click on the Acrobat symbol to download the file. But only shows the text on the first page. The rest are blank. I'm running Win98, which uses old versions of Acrobat and Foxit. Is this a version problem, or is there a way to get the rest of the document? I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have WinXP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works great. But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen update is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I tried VB 2.1, but it was only slightly faster. I bought a new graphics card, but it was only marginally faster. It also overwhelmed the cooling in the computer. The case got so hot I couldn't hold my hand on it. I can't upgrade the motherboard since I need the parallel and serial IO ports, but they don't exist on newer systems. I'll try to get Win98 running in QEMU today, and see if that helps the slow display problem. If so, I'll transfer all my files over to the new box, and that should end these problems with old, down-level versions of Acrobat and browsers. The plan is to run Win98 as usual, and if there is a problem, bounce over to WinXP. If anyone has other suggestions to speed up the DOS display in XP, I'd be very happy to hear them. Thanks, Mike From brooke at pacific.net Wed Jul 1 15:58:26 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 08:58:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Hi Rex: Go to: http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. On the next page are three documents * Inactivation * Rev A * Base Document just click on the Adobe icon to get them. More on my Manuals web page: http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Rex wrote: > Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator reference > source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. > > It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and > also gives 1 pps. > > I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source and > if it looks good, package it with a power supply. > > Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this thing > again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit from the > mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 "Time-Frequency Standard, > Disiplined". The document that describes it is MIL-T-28816. > > There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want money. I > also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are typical IEEE > unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has MIL-T-28816 for > free: > http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ > > Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The pages > with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- figures > 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't found a > better source. > > I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or > some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the > three pages of drawings. > > thanks, > -Rex, KK6MK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 1 17:30:19 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:30:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I don't think its a version problem. When you have the patent displayed (View original document tab) you only see one page at a time. see http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=2004036036A1&KC=A1 (one of mine ;-) There is a bar above the view window with a "save full document" option. If you click on this it will ask you to decode a captcha before downloading the PDF. Regards, Robert Akinson --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Mike Monett wrote: > From: Mike Monett > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:55 PM > ? >Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 > 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) > ? >From: Robert Atkinson > ? >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is > Broken > > ? >Hi Mike, > > ? > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/? It's an > offical? european? site that > ? > also searches? US and World Patents. Very > flexible? search options > ? > and no registration required. You do have to > type in the code from > ? > a graphic? image? if you want to > download a full? PDF.? That? is a > ? > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > > ? > Robert G8RPI. > > ? Hi Robert, > > ? Thanks very? much? for? the reply and > the link.? That? looks? like a > ? useful site, especially for European and Japanese > patents. > > ? How do you "type in the code from a graphic image"? > I guess you mean > ? to enter a captcha, but couldn't see any box to > enter a code. > > ? It found US6134065 with no problem, and all I had to > do was click on > ? the Acrobat symbol to download the file. But only > shows the? text on > ? the first page. The rest are blank. > > ? I'm running Win98, which uses old versions of > Acrobat and? Foxit. Is > ? this a? version? problem, or is there a > way to get the? rest? of the > ? document? > > ? I'm hoping? a lot of these problems will soon > go away. I? have WinXP > ? SP3 running? in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, > and? it? works great. > ? But it? doesn't like running my old DOS > programs. The? screen update > ? is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. > I tried? VB 2.1, > ? but it was only slightly faster. > > ? I bought a new graphics card, but it was only > marginally? faster. It > ? also overwhelmed the cooling in the computer. The > case got so? hot I > ? couldn't hold my hand on it. I can't upgrade the > motherboard since I > ? need the parallel and serial IO ports, but they > don't exist on newer > ? systems. > > ? I'll try? to get Win98 running in QEMU today, > and see if? that helps > ? the slow display problem. If so, I'll transfer all > my files? over to > ? the new box, and that should end these problems with > old, down-level > ? versions of Acrobat and browsers. The plan is to run > Win98 as usual, > ? and if there is a problem, bounce over to WinXP. > > ? If anyone? has other suggestions to speed up > the DOS display? in XP, > ? I'd be very happy to hear them. > > ? Thanks, > > ? Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 1 17:49:32 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:49:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken In-Reply-To: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.uspto.gov has a pretty good search engine for US patents (with images, if you load the AlternaTiff plugin) > > ? > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/? It's an offical? european? > site that > > ? > also searches? US and World Patents. Very flexible? > search options > > ? > and no registration required. You do have to type in > the code from > > ? > a graphic? image? if you want to > > download a full? PDF.? That? is a > > ? > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > > > > ? > Robert G8RPI. > > > > ? Hi Robert, > > From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 18:34:37 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:34:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A4BAC3D.6090503@sonic.net> Thanks Brooke, I thought there should be a way to get to unclassified specs directly, but didn't find it myself. Great info. -Rex Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Rex: > > Go to: > http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ > "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal > specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" > and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". > > On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. > On the next page are three documents > * Inactivation > * Rev A > * Base Document > just click on the Adobe icon to get them. > > More on my Manuals web page: > http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Rex wrote: > >> Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator >> reference source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. >> >> It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and >> also gives 1 pps. >> >> I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source >> and if it looks good, package it with a power supply. >> >> Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this >> thing again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit >> from the mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 >> "Time-Frequency Standard, Disiplined". The document that describes it >> is MIL-T-28816. >> >> There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want >> money. I also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are >> typical IEEE unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has >> MIL-T-28816 for free: >> http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ >> >> Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The >> pages with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- >> figures 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't >> found a better source. >> >> I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or >> some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the >> three pages of drawings. >> >> thanks, >> -Rex, KK6MK >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 18:57:30 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:57:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A4BB19A.3010507@sonic.net> I went to the assist site and downloaded the pdf version of the document. Unfortunately the three figure pages are the same low resolution scans. Oh well. I already know what it looks like and the rest of the document tells me about everthing I wanted to know about the 5 MHz reference. -Rex Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Rex: > > Go to: > http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ > "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal > specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" > and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". > > On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. > On the next page are three documents > * Inactivation > * Rev A > * Base Document > just click on the Adobe icon to get them. > > More on my Manuals web page: > http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 20:05:07 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:05:07 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: > Hi, I don't think its a version problem. When you have the patent > displayed (View original document tab) you only see one page at a > time. see > http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=2004036036A1&KC=A1 > (one of mine ;-) > There is a bar above the view window with a "save full document" > option. If you click on this it will ask you to decode a captcha > before downloading the PDF. > Regards, > Robert Akinson Thanks, I see what you mean now. I didn't notice that link the first time. It works great! That is an interesting patent application. It was in 2004 - I wonder why it hasn't issued yet. Looks like google patents is back online. I must have caught them as they were switching over to captchas. The site looks and works different now, and they require decoding the captcha before downloading. I guess that's OK, since it still is the best site online for US patents. But it means I can no longer link to the pdf file and convert it directly to DjVu. This OCR's the file and makes it text-searchable. The size drops considerably, and the DjVu reader is much faster than any pdf reader I've used. It is often worth the effort for large pdf's or ones you need to study a great deal. Now I have to download the file from google, then upload it to DjVu. This takes time, but the conversion takes much longer, so I guess it doesn't matter. If you'd like to try DjVu, you can start here: http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org/ulinit.php?submit.x=81&submit.y=30 If you don't have a viewer, you can get a free viewer at http://windjview.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, Mike From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Jul 2 13:51:31 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:51:31 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> Fellow time-nuts, Magnus Danielson wrote: > Fellow time-nuts, > > If you recall, when we hit GPS week 1524 (1024 + 500) we had issues with > a few receivers that didn't handle their biased GPS week wrapping > correctly. Then the arbitrary constant was 500. Now on Sunday the > aribtrary constant of 512 occurs as we enter GPS week 1536 (1024 + 512), > as calculated here: > http://csrc.ucsd.edu/scripts/convertDate.cgi?time=1536+0 > > If you see any node having problem, it would be nice to know. > > Hopefully no node fails. Unfortunatly I have heard a few reports of failures, one which I can't disclose the details of right now, but replacing GPS equipment solve the issue. The other was offset by a week, when Vaisala weather equipment was hit. Vaisala has provided the information in a nice webpage: http://www.vaisala.com/weather/products/gpswindfindingstatus.html One of their customers, Esrange (located in northen Sweden) has to stop scheduled rocket launches as they where not getting the wind data they needed. Vaisala seems to take this very serious as I am pleased to see on their webpage. It took less of a minute of Google time to find that page. The end result is that there is now a number of software/firmware issues which can hit a GPS receiver. Every once in a while they do hit systems. When they do, they can have rather large impact on system performance and limit operations (we have seen national total failure). This is the awareness I want to spread. Cheers, Magnus From sillebob at mchsi.com Thu Jul 2 21:51:18 2009 From: sillebob at mchsi.com (Bob Ellis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:51:18 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore Message-ID: <070220092151.24707.4A4D2BD6000140C400006083223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF0D010D0A0404079C@mchsi.com> After an absence of several years I am back on the list. I am wondering how many are using the M12+T Oncore GPS in their GPSDO or whatever? More specifically how many would use the M12+T if there was an adapter to power the GPS and translate the signals to RS-232 levels? I have been selling an adapter for the UT+ Oncores on eBay for a while now but I'm thinking of making a board design for the newer GPS. Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. This could be an assembled board or a kit. If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features would be desirable. I have this breadboarded with through-hole components now and I am about ready to do a board layout. I would like some feedback to know if this idea is worthwhile or not. Bob From didier at cox.net Thu Jul 2 22:13:28 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:13:28 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bingo :) > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:47 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control > > > In a message dated 28/06/2009 19:54:05 GMT Daylight Time, > rexa at sonic.net > writes: > > No need to upload. You should have looked first. Both > information repositories are already there. > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=05)_GPS_Timing/Z3801 > > I thought this is the kind of thing Didier might have > already collected. > > > > ---------------- > And not only that, but from the identical structure I'd say > it's almost 100% guaranteed that they're my files.......... > Whoops:-) > > I did make them available once before and it's even quite > possible, prior to my having problems, that I could have > uploaded them myself and forgotten about it, the remaining > braincell does struggle a bit with trivia these days! > > Oh well, I obviously wasn't the only one not aware. > There's been over 30 downloads from my rapidshare link so I > still consider it worth the effort. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From swl at freeode.co.uk Thu Jul 2 22:20:05 2009 From: swl at freeode.co.uk (John Murphy) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:20:05 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090702232005.44feeae9@asus> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300, Mike Monett wrote: > I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have WinXP > SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works great. > But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen update > is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I tried VB 2.1, > but it was only slightly faster. Have you tried any of the Linux DOS emulators? I find DOSBox particularly useful for the odd DOS programs I still use. http://www.dosbox.com/ -- John. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 2 23:41:40 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:41:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore In-Reply-To: Message from "Bob Ellis" of "Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:51:18 -0000." <070220092151.24707.4A4D2BD6000140C400006083223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF0D010D0A0404079C@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip > for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate > power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. > This could be an assembled board or a kit. > If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features > would be desirable. How wide is the PPS? If it's tiny (10 microseconds) some serial port setups won't catch it. If so, a one-shot pulse stretcher would be handy. Does the PPS signal stop ticking when it runs out of satellites? If so, I think you can use the other one-shot in the package so that the LED is on when the PPS is ticking and blinks when the PPS is off. and is off if there is no power). -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 00:01:02 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:01:02 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore In-Reply-To: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A4D4A3E.50402@xtra.co.nz> A monostable is not required as the PPS pulse width is 200millisec wide. The PPS pulse can either stop when the timing error is too high/too few satellites etc., or it can be configured to continuously output. Since the M12+T can be configured for either a 100Hz output or a 1PPS output using a monostable adds unnecessary complication. If the buffered PPS output is intended to drive 50 ohms a driver that has a clean output that doesn't produce aberrations of 20% or so due to ground bounce would be nice. Bruce Hal Murray wrote: >> Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip >> for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate >> power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. >> This could be an assembled board or a kit. >> > > >> If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features >> would be desirable. >> > > How wide is the PPS? If it's tiny (10 microseconds) some serial port setups > won't catch it. If so, a one-shot pulse stretcher would be handy. > > Does the PPS signal stop ticking when it runs out of satellites? If so, I > think you can use the other one-shot in the package so that the LED is on > when the PPS is ticking and blinks when the PPS is off. and is off if there > is no power). > > > > From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Jul 3 07:42:04 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:42:04 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control Message-ID: ROFL:-) In a message dated 02/07/2009 23:14:28 GMT Daylight Time, didier at cox.net writes: Bingo :) > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:47 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control > > > In a message dated 28/06/2009 19:54:05 GMT Daylight Time, > rexa at sonic.net > writes: > > No need to upload. You should have looked first. Both > information repositories are already there. > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=05)_GPS_Timing/Z3801 > > I thought this is the kind of thing Didier might have > already collected. > > > > ---------------- > And not only that, but from the identical structure I'd say > it's almost 100% guaranteed that they're my files.......... > Whoops:-) > > I did make them available once before and it's even quite > possible, prior to my having problems, that I could have > uploaded them myself and forgotten about it, the remaining > braincell does struggle a bit with trivia these days! > > Oh well, I obviously wasn't the only one not aware. > There's been over 30 downloads from my rapidshare link so I > still consider it worth the effort. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jltran at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 3 13:12:58 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 08:12:58 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A1F2876.3080408@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit and the insides if anyone is interested. I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage to the Oscillator Board. Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator Board. I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. Thanks for all the suggestions and help. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Joe Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by. In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair of toroids. Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this is probably impractical. Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 85-50 Schematic 2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 77187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Brucekareen at aol.com Fri Jul 3 13:50:00 2009 From: Brucekareen at aol.com (Brucekareen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:50:00 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Message-ID: Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) From frledda at verizon.net Fri Jul 3 13:59:25 2009 From: frledda at verizon.net (Francesco Ledda) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:59:25 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: you could use remote desktop.... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Brucekareen at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:50 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rdarlington at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 15:26:12 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:26:12 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty much any Bluetooth serial adapter should do it. Running a cable would be cheaper though. http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php http://www.aircable.net/serial.html -Bob On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, wrote: > Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed > from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it > could be made to work. > > Bruce Hunter > **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place > where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Fri Jul 3 15:27:31 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:27:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49974.87.227.52.225.1246634851.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Google for "bluetooth serial adapter" -- Bj?rn > you could use remote desktop.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be > accessed > from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it > could be made to work. > > Bruce Hunter From bg at lysator.liu.se Fri Jul 3 15:28:19 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:28:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50003.87.227.52.225.1246634899.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> I was to slow... ;-) > Pretty much any Bluetooth serial adapter should do it. Running a cable > would be cheaper though. > > http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ > http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php > http://www.aircable.net/serial.html > > -Bob > From joegwinn at comcast.net Fri Jul 3 15:57:01 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:57:01 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 (Cutting ferrite cores) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:13 PM +0000 7/3/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >[snip] >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths >Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > >Joe [Trantham] > >Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a >small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current is to >be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more difficult >as such toroids are difficult to come by. In principle one can construct >ones own by cutting and grinding a pair of toroids. Unless one has access to >diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this is probably impractical. Actually, at least in the US it's easy to get such blades from lapidary shops for less than US $10. Here's one: The traditional approach is to hold the oddly shaped object to be cut in pitch. By lapidary standards, ferrites are pretty soft, and so should cut quite quickly. Joe Gwinn From time-nuts at kasperkp.dk Fri Jul 3 19:30:34 2009 From: time-nuts at kasperkp.dk (Kasper Pedersen) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:30:34 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Magnus Danielson wrote: > > Unfortunatly I have heard a few reports of failures, one which I can't > disclose the details of right now, but replacing GPS equipment solve > the issue. > I didn't think this would hit me, and I don't know if it's related, but: I have (had) 2 Garmin GPS-18x fw 3.00 on the windowsill, one driving a homecooked GPSDO, the other just a separate pps. This morning both of them were quiet; There's no NMEA data coming out of them, no pps, nothing. Garmin's tool won't talk to them. They were on separate supplies, and one of them has RXD tied hard to ground (nothing speaks to it). They did share windowsill, and it hasn't rained. Anyone else lose an 18x? /Kasper Pedersen From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 19:45:33 2009 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:45:33 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Message-ID: <91981b3e0907031245m5ac28363k2e129fb51829de9a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Kasper Pedersen wrote: > I have (had) 2 Garmin GPS-18x fw 3.00 on the windowsill, one driving a > homecooked GPSDO, the other just a separate pps. > This morning both of them were quiet; There's no NMEA data coming out of > them, no pps, nothing. Garmin's tool won't talk to them. > They were on separate supplies, and one of them has RXD tied hard to ground > (nothing speaks to it). > They did share windowsill, and it hasn't rained. > > Anyone else lose an 18x? I have a gps18/lvc that seems to lock up every couple of months. I should really let gpsd at this receiver, and try get some logs of when it locks. -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 18:50:01 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:50:01 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 45662 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Fri Jul 3 19:55:52 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:55:52 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Kasper Pedersen of "Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:30:34 +0200." <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Message-ID: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Anyone else lose an 18x? I assume you have tried power cycling them. I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything useful. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 19:21:36 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:21:36 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: > On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300, Mike Monett wrote: >> I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have >> WinXP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works >> great. >> But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen >> update is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I >> tried VB 2.1, but it was only slightly faster. > Have you tried any of the Linux DOS emulators? I find DOSBox > particularly useful for the odd DOS programs I still use. > http://www.dosbox.com/ > John. Hi John, Thanks for the suggestion. I really need to get Win98 running, since I have about 3 decades of code written in Borland Pascal that works with Win98 to find and load programs. For example, one of the biggest problems with Windows and Linux is you have to load the desired program, then find the file you want to work with. The search function is extremely poor, especially if you have hundreds or thousands of files in a folder to look through. My software generates an index of every file on the hard disk, and assigns a comment field to each file. I put keywords in the comment field, such as "pll", "phase noise", "dmtd", "xtal", etc. Then I use a modified Boyer-Moore search in assembly code to find all files that contain the keywords. It is very fast. For example, searching my hard disk for "timenuts" give the following result (search result list omitted for clarity): Searched 202,362 files in 4,130 directories Found 7 hits in 67.331 ms When I find the file I am looking for, I press a single key and my program loads the appropriate program with the target file. I don't have to remeber all the strange incantations needed to make each program perform the desired task - these are all hard-wired into my code and so takes care of all the details. This program is indespensable. I just don't know how I would survive if I had to work the way everyone else does. I would never be able to find anything. Unfortunately, these programs will not run satisfactorily in WinXP. They are so slow they are unusable. And all the other alternatives so far have one or more huge show stopper problems. For example, I tried QEMU. I can partition the drive, but QEMU doesn't want to save the partition information and it disappears the next time I boot. I'm sure there must be something I'm doing wrong, but I can't find any solution. I tried running Win98 in VirtualBox. This was a waste of time. The VGA screen only gives 640x480 resolution, which is unusable. There are several ways to improve this with external video drivers, but the main problem is there are no Guest Additions for Win98. So there are no shared folders to transfer files. Copying to the clipboard doesn't work, you have to constantly capture and release the mouse to go back and forth to Ubuntu, etc. One solution may be to run Virtual PC 2007 in Win XP. I tried that last night before going to bed, but I suddenly realized I need a much larger partition than the 2GB I was using to make Win XP compatible with the 2GB limit in DOS. So the first thing to try is to install another version of Win XP but with a much larger partition. I understand FAT32 will take 127.5GB, but Win XP can't format anything over 32GB. So I have to try running FDISK from a Win98 boot disk and see if the latest version of Ubuntu will let me read the Win98 floppy in Virtual PC 2007 running under Win XP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0. Whew! Thanks, Mike From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 19:31:01 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:31:01 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > and the insides if anyone is interested. > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > to the Oscillator Board. > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > Board. > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > Joe Joe, Congratulations on getting your system to work! A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with the turns ratio. Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This further attenuates the signal. I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is down 40dB. You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory before the simulation was complete. I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of your crystal and working backwards. I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, Mike From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 3 22:20:03 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:20:03 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A4E8413.3090104@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> Anyone else lose an 18x? > > I assume you have tried power cycling them. > > I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything useful. > > Battery failure? The things I have been pointing to is to specific firmware bugs or missfeatures. Doesn't rule out a whole line of other failure modes. Soft-lockup conditions triggered by external commands or electrical events included. Cheers, Magnus From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 22:58:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:58:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E8D09.5090709@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was > scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere hand waving. Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such limitations. If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also necessary. > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > This is usually a bad idea. Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer intended that the collector load be capacitive. Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift tempco and the phase noise. A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the output buffer but there are better circuits. > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive loading. There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation than an emitter follower. > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > This isn't new its been around for decades. > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 23:25:02 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:25:02 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E934E.7090500@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was > scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise if the input signal slew rate is too low. In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is selected to minimse the jitter at the output. Bruce From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 00:48:30 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:48:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: Here is my two cents worth 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. It should be fixed before it is modified. The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. ws ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Monett" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 23:52:33 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:52:33 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: Message-ID: > Mike Monett wrote: >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't >> know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes >> with the turns ratio. >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be >> extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the >> secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz >> operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection >> to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress >> in this direction. > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. > Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere > hand waving. All the discussion up till now has been handwaving. And you forgot the termination resistor that is required on the transformer secondary. I provide means to get the true voltages and currents later. > Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such > limitations. > If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also > necessary. Obviously. But the currents are likely to be in the microamp region. Not only is that very hard to measure, especially at 10MHz, it doesn't do any good if you don't know what they are supposed to be. But why bother trying to measure the current. If you have an accurate spice model, you know the voltages in the circuit. These can be measured much easier and more accurately than trying to measure microamps in a 10MHz crystal tank. >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank >> circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is >> already well below resonance, which attenuates the output >> voltage. >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the >> resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with >> a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > This is usually a bad idea. > Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer > intended that the collector load be capacitive. > Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal > frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift > tempco and the phase noise. Without putting the circuit in spice, it seems he is operating near the -3dB point. The slope of the phase vs frequency is pretty linear from the +/- 3dB points through resonance. So it doesn't matter much where the tank is tuned. It will give about the same phase noise anywhere. Operating down the side of the resonance curve is a good way to convert AM noise into phase noise. > A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase > noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. I think he really meant to tune the tank to resonance. The problem may simply be incorrect values shown for the tank components. > The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. For a low impedance load. But we don't know what the load is. > A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the > output buffer but there are better circuits. >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a >> limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good >> emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from >> the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat > intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive > loading. Short circuit protection is easy to add. Capacitive loading means the tank would be operating further off resonance, and the basic circuit diagram shows this is unlikely. > There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation > than an emitter follower. Right now there is nothing on the output except the tank. So any added isolation would be an improvement. >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. >> This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at >> one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level >> is down 40dB. >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires >> a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of >> memory before the simulation was complete. > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this > problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. Depends on the time step. To get any accuracy, you need a fine time step. This is slow on any computer, and it eats a lot of memory. > It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start > faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an > initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit > but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator > circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal >> oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of >> thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results >> in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see >> "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" > This isn't new its been around for decades. Please, Bruce, show me one reference that uses my approach. Do not confuse previous attempts that inject a starting impulse into the tank to get the oscillation going. My method initializes the tank to the exact point in the cycle where the current through the crystal motional inductance is at maximum. You can calculate this current exactly, and set the oscillator to whatever crystal dissipation you desire. When the transient analysis starts, the tank proceeds through the cycle as if it had been running forever. It does not need hundreds or thousands of cycles to get the amplitude stabilized. It is already stabilized, and the only thing you have to do is let the electronics catch up. This does not occur with previous methods of injecting a pulse into the tank. This still take many cycles to get the oscillator running and to stabilize the amplitude. The next trick is to measure the amplitude of the peaks to parts-per-million accuracy so you can see if the amplitude is increasing or decreasing. This relies on the peak search capability in Microcap SPICE. LTspice and PSPICE do not have the capability to do this, and Microcap didn't have it in previous releases. So I am pretty confident you have never seen this approach before. Please provide references to support your claim. >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> Thanks, >> Mike ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from your next post: > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise > if the input signal slew rate is too low. > In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an > output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. > The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is > selected to minimse the jitter at the output. > Bruce Bruce, you have mentioned this many times. I have a hard time seeing how this could work. Linear systems do not care where the filters are located. A zero-crossing detector (limiter) is linear through the zero crossing. So all you really need is one limiter with sufficient gain, and one filter on the output to cut the high frequency noise generated at the input stage of the limiter. However, none of this helps with the flicker noise generated at the input of the limiter. This probably contains most of the noise power, so it is doubtful that any arrangement of low-pass filters will do much good. Can you post a spice analysis of your approach to show us how it works? And don't forget the reference on the SPICE analysis of crystal osc. Regards, Mike From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 02:07:48 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:07:48 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, interests in EE will grow. I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose other options. The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was certainly not obvious to me. Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. Thanks again for all the useful information. Joe None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WarrenS Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Here is my two cents worth 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. It should be fixed before it is modified. The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. ws ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Monett" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 02:11:20 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:11:20 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4EBA48.2010600@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > > Mike Monett wrote: > > >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't > >> know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes > >> with the turns ratio. > > >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be > >> extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the > >> secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz > >> operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection > >> to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress > >> in this direction. > > > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. > > > Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere > > hand waving. > > All the discussion up till now has been handwaving. And you forgot > the termination resistor that is required on the transformer > secondary. I provide means to get the true voltages and currents > later. > > > Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such > > limitations. > > > If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also > > necessary. > > Obviously. But the currents are likely to be in the microamp region. > > Not only is that very hard to measure, especially at 10MHz, it > doesn't do any good if you don't know what they are supposed to be. > > But why bother trying to measure the current. If you have an > accurate spice model, you know the voltages in the circuit. These > can be measured much easier and more accurately than trying to > measure microamps in a 10MHz crystal tank. > > >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank > >> circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is > >> already well below resonance, which attenuates the output > >> voltage. > > >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the > >> resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > >> further attenuates the signal. > > >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with > >> a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > > This is usually a bad idea. > > > Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer > > intended that the collector load be capacitive. > > > Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal > > frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift > > tempco and the phase noise. > > Without putting the circuit in spice, it seems he is operating near > the -3dB point. The slope of the phase vs frequency is pretty linear > from the +/- 3dB points through resonance. > > So it doesn't matter much where the tank is tuned. It will give > about the same phase noise anywhere. > > If and only if the tank operating point is within the region where the phase slope is approximately linear. > Operating down the side of the resonance curve is a good way to > convert AM noise into phase noise. > > A good oscillator has very low AM noise. > > A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase > > noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. > > I think he really meant to tune the tank to resonance. The problem > may simply be incorrect values shown for the tank components. > > Perhaps the design is so old that the designer was unaware of the phase noise implications of using a tuned tank. > > The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. > > For a low impedance load. But we don't know what the load is. > The load for the oscillator buffer is well defined, The output stage load lies somewhere between 0 and 330 ohms. > > A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the > > output buffer but there are better circuits. > > >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a > >> limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good > >> emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from > >> the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat > > intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive > > loading. > > Short circuit protection is easy to add. > Yes but instability due to capacitive loading can only be cured by careful design. Using a series resistor in series with the output can work but reduces the signal level. > Capacitive loading means the tank would be operating further off > resonance, and the basic circuit diagram shows this is unlikely. > > > There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation > > than an emitter follower. > > Right now there is nothing on the output except the tank. So any > added isolation would be an improvement. > Its better to do the analysis and design an appropriate stage than just chuck in an emitter follower. > >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. > >> This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at > >> one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level > >> is down 40dB. > > >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires > >> a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of > >> memory before the simulation was complete. > > > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this > > problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. > > Depends on the time step. To get any accuracy, you need a fine time > step. This is slow on any computer, and it eats a lot of memory. > > > It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start > > faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an > > initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit > > but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator > > circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. > > >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal > >> oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of > >> thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results > >> in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see > >> "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" > > > This isn't new its been around for decades. > > Please, Bruce, show me one reference that uses my approach. Do not > confuse previous attempts that inject a starting impulse into the > tank to get the oscillation going. > > > My method initializes the tank to the exact point in the cycle where > the current through the crystal motional inductance is at maximum. > > You can calculate this current exactly, and set the oscillator to > whatever crystal dissipation you desire. > > When the transient analysis starts, the tank proceeds through the > cycle as if it had been running forever. It does not need hundreds > or thousands of cycles to get the amplitude stabilized. It is > already stabilized, and the only thing you have to do is let the > electronics catch up. > > This does not occur with previous methods of injecting a pulse into > the tank. This still take many cycles to get the oscillator running > and to stabilize the amplitude. > > The next trick is to measure the amplitude of the peaks to > parts-per-million accuracy so you can see if the amplitude is > increasing or decreasing. > > This relies on the peak search capability in Microcap SPICE. LTspice > and PSPICE do not have the capability to do this, and Microcap > didn't have it in previous releases. So I am pretty confident you > have never seen this approach before. > > Please provide references to support your claim. > > >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > >> your crystal and working backwards. > > >> Thanks, > > >> Mike > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from your next post: > > > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise > > if the input signal slew rate is too low. > > > In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an > > output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. > > > The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is > > selected to minimse the jitter at the output. > > > Bruce > > Bruce, you have mentioned this many times. I have a hard time seeing > how this could work. > Its almost trivial, you actually need to maximise the zero crossing slope to noise ratio for each stage of the limiter. Using a wide bandwidth limiter reduces the output noise to slope ratio below that of a limiter with the optimum bandwidth. A few Spice simulations or hand calculations with a fixed gain limiter will quickly show that there is an optimum filter cutoff frequency that produces the lowest output jitter. The slope gain required to ensure that the jitter is well below that of any subsequent logic is readily calculated. If the signal slew rate is high enough the limiter design is relatively non critical. Its also necessary to optimise the gain distribution within the limiter. Using a single high gain limiter is far from the optimum approach for low slew rate signals. For a given signal and slope gain there is also an optimum number of limiter stages. However even at 1Hz there isn't usually a great deal of improvement beyond 6 limiter stages. At low frequencies the performance of a single stage limiter can be 1,000,000 times worse than a 6 stage limiter. At higher frequencies 1-3 stages may suffice, depending on the signal slew rate and the jitter characteristics of the following circuitry. > Linear systems do not care where the filters are located. A > zero-crossing detector (limiter) is linear through the zero > crossing. > > A limiter isn't a linear system except near the zero crossing. > So all you really need is one limiter with sufficient gain, and one > filter on the output to cut the high frequency noise generated at > the input stage of the limiter. > > It has been obvious (for example it has long been known and shown in practice that the performance using such a system is inferior to a system using a set of cascaded limiters with each successive stage having a greater gain and bandwidth than the previous stage however despite several attempts the optimum gain and bandwidth distribution remained unknown) for decades before the Collins paper that this isn't true in general. If one only needs a modest slope gain then a low gain single stage limiter with an appropriate output filter may suffice. > However, none of this helps with the flicker noise generated at the > input of the limiter. > > What mechanism do you have in mind? If you are naive enough to use a limiter stage without (series) feedback to linearise its performance near zero crossing then flicker noise may be an issue. If the limiter stage has too high a dc and low frequency gain then flicker noise can also be a problem. With sufficient feedback and not too high a dc gain the limiter flicker phase noise can easily be made much lower than that of a crystal oscillator. > This probably contains most of the noise power, so it is doubtful > that any arrangement of low-pass filters will do much good. > > Only if you limit yourself to using a limiter without signal frequency feedback in the active region. A limiter stage generates very little noise when its output is actually at one of the limits. > Can you post a spice analysis of your approach to show us how it > works? > > Oliver Collins did the fundamental analysis in the mid 90's: "The Design of Low Jitter Hard Limiters" IEEE transactions on Communications, Vol 44 No 5, May 1996 pp 601-608 (no it isn't free, you either have to pay to download it, or find a library that gets this Journal) His analysis (possibly with suitable extensions to take into account the fact that device noise tends to increase at high frequencies) also applies to RF limiters. Its almost trivial to extend Collins' analysis to the case where the noise of each limiter stage isn't the same as the other limiter stages. A Spice analysis isn't particularly helpful. Whilst one can use it to estimate the output noise and output slope for each limiter stage, simulating the resultant jitter is usually a little problematic. > And don't forget the reference on the SPICE analysis of crystal osc. > Spice is merely a tool for numeral solution of a set of nonlinear differential equations, the approach you use (and those that others use) has been obvious for some 400 years. > Regards, > > Mike > > Bruce From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Jul 4 02:20:19 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:20:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: Message-ID: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, or did not notice it. Bill....WB6BNQ WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. > The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. > If you do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 4 02:19:55 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:19:55 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: > Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > J. L. Trantham jltran at worldnet.att.net > Sat Jul 4 02:07:48 UTC 2009 > I did not realize that this post would generate this much > discussion. > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac > Electrophysiologist and it has been some time since I thought > about such issues. I have learned a lot though from the > discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, interests in > EE will grow. You probably don't realize how ironic it is that you are a Cardiac Electrophysiologist, and you have fixed a broken heart (in the sense that a crystal oscillator is the heartbeat of any circuit)? > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, > I could not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible > exception of the XTAL. You have done extremely well. No one is criticizing your observations or your solution. They work, and you can move on to greater things. But we are timenuts. We argue and discuss the most trivial-appearing topics, because underneath may lie much greater truths. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some > reluctance to oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was > an issue. With no obvious failure and no hope of finding a > replacement XTAL, I had to choose other options. Again, you did good. The subject has left the operating table and is on his feet. > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, > at least on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. > There is only room for changing components. I would have liked to > try adding a resistor and capacitor to the emitter circuit of the > amplifier transistor on the Oscillator Board but there is no room. > I have pictures if anyone is interested. The Oscillator Board is > inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm that has a heater coil > wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller Board attached > to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the Output > Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, > plus a ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz > out. > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, > it was certainly not obvious to me. > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but > in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure > of a single XTAL. Your question is a good one. Recall that many precision weigh scales deposit material on a crystal to measure the change in frequency. And other systems immerse the crystal in liquid to look for frequency changes. These show the basic piezo response is intrinsic to the material, and is quite robust. I think crystals have to be pretty badly abused before they quit entirely. I remember grinding a FT-247 crystal for 40 meters to move it up slightly and get off the European broadcasts when I was a teenager. My transmitter was a single 6AG7 with 600V on the plate, and about 4 watts into a long line antenna. The chirp from the sidetone was pretty bad, but the crystal seemed happy no matter what abuse I gave it. The biggest problem with crystal oscillators is overdriving the crystal. The acceleration at the surface is on the order of 4 to 5 million G, so it is easy to understand how overdriving can result in fracture. But the crystal is so badly damaged it won't work, or it oscillates at a different frequency. If you look at the oscillator circuits used during the war, you will find circuits using a 300 Watt 813 transmitting tube with a crystal in the grid. This is abuse beyond belief, and a modern crystal would simply fracture on the first key-down. This has happened many times in the past. Recall the BART failure in San Francisco some years ago where a train ran into another one and killed passengers. The complete analysis was never published, but it really looks like the crystal fractured from overdriving and ran at a much higher frequency. This upset the software timing algorithms enough so the train could not stop as programmed. People died from this mistake. I find these problems in my SPICE crystal analysis, at http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm Most of the circuits I analyze overdrive the crystal by a factor of 10 or more. I don't know why they survive. I don't know what could happen to a crystal to change the piezeoelectric response, which is an intrinsic part of the physics of the crystal. There are many other flaws that can happen to a crystal, but these usually occur at manufacture and probably would never reach the field. So it is likely there is some simple electronic failure in question. > However, none of these were in an oven. > Thanks again for all the useful information. > Joe > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the > amplifier stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. So we don't know what happened in your circuit. But you are still to be congratulated at getting it to work under the most difficult of circumstances. Regards, Mike From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:21:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:21:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. > Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one should get. The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. > The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. > If you do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws > Bruce > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >> > to the Oscillator Board. >> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >> > Board. >> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:36:47 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:36:47 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> Message-ID: <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> WB6BNQ wrote: > I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, > or did not notice it. > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in the circuit. The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the oscillator transistor. Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences for the crystal current etc. Bruce > WarrenS wrote: > > >> Here is my two cents worth >> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >> It should be fixed before it is modified. >> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >> >> ws >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:51:33 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:51:33 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ED1C5.9080505@xtra.co.nz> Joe You can always try to see how it performs with a cheap crystal, padding out the ESR with a resistor to determine the ESR limit at which the circuit fails to oscillate. The crystal current doesn't depend strongly on the crystal operating Q(as long as the circuit oscillates), so using a cheap crystal in a test should give some idea of the oscillator circuit behaviour. Some means of estimating the actual crystal ESR should give some clues to the crystal health. Crystals can develop cracks or break, electrode contacts can become disconnected etc. Early WWII crystals in non hermetic packages often used to fail in a relatively short time. Once the circuit is working correctly, you want substantial output you can always add an external amplifier. Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. > > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist > and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned > a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, > interests in EE will grow. > > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could > not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to > oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no > obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose > other options. > > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least > on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room > for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and > capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the > Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is > interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm > that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller > Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the > Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a > ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. > > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was > certainly not obvious to me. > > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden > death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years > with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. > However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier > stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of WarrenS > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" > labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you > do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series > with the 47 ohms. > > ws > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> >>> Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> >>> Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> >>> there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> to the Oscillator Board. >>> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> >>> thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> >>> to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> Board. >>> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> >>> amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 04:05:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:05:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ED4FD.2050204@xtra.co.nz> You can estimate the crystal current by measuring the RF voltage across the 15pF cap in the oscillator circuit and estimate/measure the varactor and trimmer capacitors. Alternatively, temporarily replace all these caps with a 33pF cap connected from the inductor in series with crystal and ground. 33pf has a reactance of ~500 ohm at 10MHz. Use a relatively low capacitance probe for this and account for the probe capacitance in the calaculations. This should at least allow you to determine if the crystal current is around 10uA, 100uA or 1mA or more. Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. > > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist > and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned > a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, > interests in EE will grow. > > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could > not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to > oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no > obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose > other options. > > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least > on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room > for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and > capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the > Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is > interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm > that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller > Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the > Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a > ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. > > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was > certainly not obvious to me. > > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden > death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years > with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. > However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier > stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of WarrenS > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" > labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you > do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series > with the 47 ohms. > > ws > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> >>> Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> >>> Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> >>> there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> to the Oscillator Board. >>> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> >>> thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> >>> to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> Board. >>> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> >>> amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 04:27:58 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:27:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> A couple more thoughts; Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. As Bruce said: > "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. One last, way out thought. It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? ws ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WarrenS wrote: >> Here is my two cents worth >> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >> It should be fixed before it is modified. >> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >> > Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one > should get. > The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? > With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor > (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. > Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal > current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. > >> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >> >> ws >> > Bruce >> ******************** >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Monett" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>> >>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>> >>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> > Board. >>> >>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>> >>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>> >>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>> >>> > Joe >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>> >>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>> the turns ratio. >>> >>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>> >>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>> >>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>> >>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>> further attenuates the signal. >>> >>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>> >>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>> >>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>> >>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>> down 40dB. >>> >>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>> before the simulation was complete. >>> >>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>> Crystal Oscillators" >>> >>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>> >>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>> your crystal and working backwards. >>> >>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>> >>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 04:55:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:55:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> WarrenS wrote: > A couple more thoughts; > > Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. > Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and > more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. > > AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? > If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. > > As Bruce said: > >> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >> > With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, > BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. > AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. > > Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. > It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. > > One last, way out thought. > It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, > ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? > If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? > > ws > > The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that corresponds to minimum phase noise. The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and hence the output amplitude. It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between the 5V supply and ground. Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by selecting a resistor value. Bruce > ***************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> Here is my two cents worth >>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>> >>> >> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >> should get. >> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >> >> >>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>> >>> ws >>> >>> >> Bruce >> >>> ******************** >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Monett" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>> >>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>> >>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>> >>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>> >>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>> > Board. >>>> >>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>> >>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>> >>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>> >>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>> >>>> > Joe >>>> >>>> Joe, >>>> >>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>> >>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>> the turns ratio. >>>> >>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>> >>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>> >>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>> >>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>> >>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>> >>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>> >>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>> >>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>> down 40dB. >>>> >>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>> >>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>> >>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>> >>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>> >>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>> >>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 05:02:15 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 17:02:15 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 Message-ID: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments please? 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gpsstat1.png Type: image/png Size: 12282 bytes Desc: not available URL: From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 05:05:57 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:05:57 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> > Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences ... True, but with the AC voltages as low as they are, I do think it is safe to think that the crystal current should be higher. I was not suggesting to arbitrarily rise the Vcc, I was asking any chance it is at the wrong voltage??? Even though 2.49 volts is plenty of Vcc to design an osc circuit to run on, It seems like a low, funny voltage to design for, on what I assume is an old product. ws ******************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WB6BNQ wrote: >> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, >> or did not notice it. >> >> Bill....WB6BNQ >> >> >> > It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in > the circuit. > The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the > oscillator transistor. > Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the > consequences for the crystal current etc. > > Bruce >> WarrenS wrote: >> >> >>> Here is my two cents worth >>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>> >>> ws >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 05:40:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:40:49 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EEB61.8080105@xtra.co.nz> Warren I agree, it's certainly possible that the external circuitry should have a higher operating voltage than 5V. A crystal current of 50uA to 1mA or so might perhaps be expected for a typical 10MHz overtone crystal. Unless some non standard crystal cut with exceptionally high ESR is used. The oscillator transistor dc emitter current appears consistent with a crystal current of around 1mA or so. Can use Spice to check but there is no need for elaborate starting techniques when simulating this circuit as it has plenty of excess gain if the simulated Q isn't too large (50,000 or so is easy) (only ESR has much effect on the crystal current). Elaborate simulations looking for ppm changes when the active device models aren't that good can be counterproductive. Doing this with any confidence requires enormous trust in the convergence of the numerical algorithms employed. All flavours of Spice do have problems with accuracy and convergence when the condition number of the solution matrix is large enough. Often this is because the simulated circuit is unstable so an educated guess as to what to change to preserve stability/convergence is required. Occasionally Spice can even predict noise that is much larger than that actually measured (it can have trouble when one has both positive and negative feedback loops). Bruce WarrenS wrote: >> Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences ... >> > > True, but with the AC voltages as low as they are, I do think it is safe to think that the crystal current should be higher. > I was not suggesting to arbitrarily rise the Vcc, I was asking any chance it is at the wrong voltage??? > Even though 2.49 volts is plenty of Vcc to design an osc circuit to run on, It seems like a low, funny voltage to design for, on what I assume is an old product. > > ws > ******************* > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:36 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WB6BNQ wrote: >> >>> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, >>> or did not notice it. >>> >>> Bill....WB6BNQ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in >> the circuit. >> The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the >> oscillator transistor. >> Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the >> consequences for the crystal current etc. >> >> Bruce >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 05:54:32 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:54:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, WS **************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WarrenS wrote: >> A couple more thoughts; >> >> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >> >> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >> >> As Bruce said: >> >>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>> >> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >> >> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >> >> One last, way out thought. >> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >> >> ws >> >> > The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being > periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. > There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that > corresponds to minimum phase noise. > The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and > hence the output amplitude. > It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the > output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. > Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still > cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. > The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network > (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between > the 5V supply and ground. > Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by > selecting a resistor value. > > Bruce >> ***************** >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>> >>>> >>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>> should get. >>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>> >>> >>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>> Bruce >>> >>>> ******************** >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>> >>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>> >>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>> >>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>> >>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>> > Board. >>>>> >>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>> >>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>> >>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>> >>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>> >>>>> > Joe >>>>> >>>>> Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>> >>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>> >>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>> >>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>> >>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>> >>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>> >>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>> >>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>> >>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>> >>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>> down 40dB. >>>>> >>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>> >>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>> >>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>> >>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>> >>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 06:08:55 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:08:55 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> Warren My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. Bruce WarrenS wrote: > I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. > > The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, > Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. > If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. > The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. > It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. > The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. > Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. > Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. > If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, > > WS > > **************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> A couple more thoughts; >>> >>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>> >>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>> >>> As Bruce said: >>> >>> >>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>> >>>> >>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>> >>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>> >>> One last, way out thought. >>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>> >>> ws >>> >>> >>> >> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >> hence the output amplitude. >> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >> the 5V supply and ground. >> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >> selecting a resistor value. >> >> Bruce >> >>> ***************** >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>> should get. >>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>> >>>>> ws >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>> ******************** >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>> >>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>> >>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>> >>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>> >>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From john at pcsupportsolutions.com Sat Jul 4 06:26:36 2009 From: john at pcsupportsolutions.com (John Allen) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 02:26:36 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80C625D8C63E4F82BF1E1CB91C739D49@JAOpti755> Try LogMeIn.com for LogMeIn FREE remote access. Great SW. John, K1AE -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Francesco Ledda Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:59 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt you could use remote desktop.... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Brucekareen at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:50 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 06:37:04 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 23:37:04 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> Bruce 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, the Only Dc current drawn is. 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) Osc board =1.32 ma Buffer board (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. ws ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current > more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >> >> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >> >> WS >> >> **************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>> >>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>> >>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>> >>>> As Bruce said: >>>> >>>> >>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>> >>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>> >>>> One last, way out thought. >>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>> hence the output amplitude. >>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>> the 5V supply and ground. >>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>> selecting a resistor value. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>>> ***************** >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>> should get. >>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ******************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 06:58:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:58:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> Warren The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't affect the currents and voltages too much. They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is working properly. NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc voltages. Bruce WarrenS wrote: > Bruce > > 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT > My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm > > With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, > the Only Dc current drawn is. > > 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) > 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) > 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) > Osc board =1.32 ma > > Buffer board > (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma > > > Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. > > ws > > ************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> Warren >> >> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >> >> Bruce >> >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>> >>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>> >>> WS >>> >>> **************** >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>> >>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>> >>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>> >>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>> >>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>> >>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>> >>>>> ws >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>> >>>> Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>> ***************** >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>> should get. >>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ws >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Bruce >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 07:24:08 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 00:24:08 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz><2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> <4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <60FFB607251341D6BB00A604F0B88AE9@WSOffice> I get a 'if working correct' Vcc of about 3.5V If the Vcc is 2.49 volts, I calculate a 3ma unaccounted for current draw from something. So I have same conclusion, one or more of the following is wrong. 510 Ohm too high, 5 volts too low, un-shown current draw thru Leakey caps or extra circuits or bad data. (plus the pot is (and should be) more likely a 10 K ohm) ws ****************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at > least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active > devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). > > My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't > affect the currents and voltages too much. > They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. > > There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the > unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. > The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is > working properly. > NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct > transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the > current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual > transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. > > Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc > voltages. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> Bruce >> >> 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT >> My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm >> >> With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, >> the Only Dc current drawn is. >> >> 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) >> 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) >> 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) >> Osc board =1.32 ma >> >> Buffer board >> (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma >> >> >> Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. >> >> ws >> >> ************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> Warren >>> >>> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >>> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>>> >>>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>>> >>>> WS >>>> >>>> **************** >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>>> >>>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>>> >>>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ***************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>>> should get. >>>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ws >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Sat Jul 4 08:21:44 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:21:44 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: G'day Joe, My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) Having said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working HP E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical fracture or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A careful shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved even slightly. I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the results ... Regards, Kit VK2LL ************* Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. Thanks again for all the useful information. Joe From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 08:38:00 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:38:00 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4F14E8.10209@xtra.co.nz> Kit If you are confident of your diagnosis then you have little to lose. The crystal is defunct and isn't going to fix itself so it may be instructive to take a peak inside. However don't the E1938 cans have an internal vacuum? Some care in opening may be required. Bruce Kit Scally wrote: > G'day Joe, > > > My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed > circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) > Having said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working > HP E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical > fracture or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A > careful shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved > even slightly. > I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - > this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given absolution > from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the results ... > > Regards, > > > Kit > VK2LL > > ************* > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in > all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a > single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Sat Jul 4 08:56:06 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:56:06 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: <4A4F14E8.10209@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <6A6F1FACFE0F4F1E8FBB1FC0CE1DA079@dd09> Bruce, I'm 99% confident - I had the whole hockey-puk apart and manipulated the capsule to get the unit working. The assembly isn't under vacuum - it just requires a bit of "knack" to prise it apart. However, the crystal puk is, I'm sure, under vacuum or filled with an inert gas (comments please, Rick ?). It's about 15mm diam. I have some pix of the puk. Can you email me privately how to upload pix to "somewhere" - I'll download them tomorrow. I'll wear safetly glasses ... Kit -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Saturday, 4 July 2009 6:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? Kit If you are confident of your diagnosis then you have little to lose. The crystal is defunct and isn't going to fix itself so it may be instructive to take a peak inside. However don't the E1938 cans have an internal vacuum? Some care in opening may be required. Bruce Kit Scally wrote: > G'day Joe, > > > My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed > circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) Having > said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working HP > E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical fracture > or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A careful > shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved even > slightly. I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine > the cause - this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if > given absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph > the results ... > > Regards, > > > Kit > VK2LL > > ************* > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in > all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a > single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 4 09:29:00 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:29:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and > then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments > please? Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else that could have happend to the equipment that day? Cheers, Magnus From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 10:05:59 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 03:05:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz><2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice><4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> <60FFB607251341D6BB00A604F0B88AE9@WSOffice> Message-ID: Here is a new observation about low Vcc. It is not likely that the Osc Vcc voltage and the Varicap freq control voltage is coming from the same 510 Ohm resistor without a regulator. Something is missing on the schematic, because now any Osc current change would cause the freq to change. And there is the missing 3 plus ma that can not be accounted for in your voltage measurements. The Osc and pot circuits as shown are drawing about 1.5 ma, and there seems to be almost 5ma going thru the 510 ohm. My guess is that this is from a 2.50 volt precision shunt regulator on the Vcc, in the Osc oven, but not shown on the schematic. That should be pretty easy to find. If so, make sure your 47 ohm fix does not cause the 2.490 volts to loose its regulation when the circuit is put back in the oven. The increase temp will cause the osc current to increase. If the EFC pot is really 10K ohm end to end, that would account for the other strange voltage readings. Also if the Freq as small as it is, is still correct, that would eliminate most of the bad xtral possibilities. ws ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "WarrenS" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 I get a 'if working correct' Vcc of about 3.5V If the Vcc is 2.49 volts, I calculate a 3ma unaccounted for current draw from something. So I have same conclusion, one or more of the following is wrong. 510 Ohm too high, 5 volts too low, un-shown current draw thru Leakey caps or extra circuits or bad data. (plus the pot is (and should be) more likely a 10 K ohm) ws ****************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at > least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active > devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). > > My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't > affect the currents and voltages too much. > They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. > > There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the > unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. > The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is > working properly. > NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct > transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the > current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual > transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. > > Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc > voltages. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> Bruce >> >> 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT >> My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm >> >> With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, >> the Only Dc current drawn is. >> >> 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) >> 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) >> 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) >> Osc board =1.32 ma >> >> Buffer board >> (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma >> >> >> Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. >> >> ws >> >> ************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> Warren >>> >>> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >>> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>>> >>>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>>> >>>> WS >>>> >>>> **************** >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>>> >>>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>>> >>>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ***************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>>> should get. >>>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ws >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 10:19:47 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:19:47 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/4 Magnus Danielson : > Steve Rooke skrev: >> >> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments >> please? > > Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? > > I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower > plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red > text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would > track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else > that could have happend to the equipment that day? Your right, it is a bit small so I've managed to figure out how to get the bigger picture (attached). From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 4 10:54:51 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:54:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4F34FB.6040805@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > 2009/7/4 Magnus Danielson : >> Steve Rooke skrev: >>> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >>> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments >>> please? >> Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? >> >> I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower >> plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red >> text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would >> track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else >> that could have happend to the equipment that day? > > Your right, it is a bit small so I've managed to figure out how to get > the bigger picture (attached). > > From the help help file of the application" > > "Finally, graph mode presents a detailed graph of the EFC (electronic > frequency control), TI (time interval value), PU (predicted > uncertainty) and the number of satellites being tracked. The cursor > readout indicates the time and date, and either the EFC or the TI > corresponding to the location of the cursor. > > On typical Z3801A's, measurements confirm that 1 count of EFC is > roughly equivalent to 1 part in ten to the twelve." That clear up all those issues! Thanks! :) > The event seems to start at about 04:00 30/6/09 and is over at about > 16:00 on 30/6/09. There is no indication that there was a complete > loss of lock to the birds at that time and the number of sats looks no > lower than at other times (OK it's not an ideal number of sats but my > antenna is in a temp position at the moment and cannot see all of the > sky). Infact, if you look at the sat lock trace, you see the same pattern as every other day. Your antenna position do make you loose sight of a few birds as you can see very clearly as a type of sine-shaped pattern occuring, but only the 24 hour occurences is as sharp, but you do see the 12 hour pattern if you look a bit more closely. The antenna position could improve, but I would not say it is the root cause here. > There is no actual loss of lock, it shows that the peak > deviation at that time was about 35ns but obviously something changed > to cause the EFC needing to track away from the "norm" to remain in > lock. I think I spent most of that day in bed with the flu that's > going on here so it was very quiet. We have been having a fair bit of > rain here but it has been over many days, not just this Tuesday. Just > thinking now, but these times are in UTC so that would represent about > 4pm on Tuesday to 4am on Wednesday, again most of time in bed. Hmm. Hope you are clear from that flu now. Nasty buissness. I don't think it is the crystal making a frequency jump, or is it? Such a jump would be high-pass filtered by the locking PLL. Hmm. Looking at the TI is looks like it starts with a steep slope, so it could be such an event, or any other similar event. The EFC responce looks a bit pale thought, so I wonder if that is really what happend. Need to ponder some more. Cheers, Magnus From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 12:25:25 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:25:25 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> Message-ID: Well, I actually did increase the input voltage so that the Oscillator Board saw 5 VDC instead of about 2.5 VDC and it made little difference in the output amplitude, perhaps 10% or less. I am sorry, but my 'scientific method' has not regenerated itself sufficiently to drive me to make careful notes. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WB6BNQ Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, or did not notice it. Bill....WB6BNQ WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The > "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for > testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to > bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From mpb45 at clanbaker.org Sat Jul 4 14:07:22 2009 From: mpb45 at clanbaker.org (Michael Baker) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:07:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... Message-ID: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Hello, Time-Nutters.... A question about possible software modifications to the Lady Heather display: Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty (black background) area on the left side of the screen, between the top of the graph area and the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line appears in that large empty space that indicates the time where the cursor is sitting. Other than that, it is just a large empty space in the display. Is this space being used (or reserved) for something I don't know about? Is there some reason why a running time display with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed in that area? Something that could be clearly read from across the room? Thanks-- Mike Baker ------------------- From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 14:16:09 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:16:09 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> What a wealth of new thought. Let me see if I can remember all the questions asked in prior posts. First, the unit is Option 004 for the HP5316A and B (and perhaps others) frequency counter and some information about it can be found in the service manual here: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/05316-90011.pdf Second, mentioned in my original posts and probably not emphasized enough recently is the fact that there is an Oven Controller Board attached to the oven that is connected to the Red wire, the Black wire and the Red/White wire. I disconnected the Red wire from the Oven Controller Board and saw no significant change in the voltage on the Red wire. Third, the unit does adjust frequency with both the COARSE and FINE adjustments (Cap and Green wire) and does come spot on frequency as compared to my Thunderbolt. It is quite stable as observed overnight on a scope with the appearance of being with in 1 Hz after an overnight. It may well improve with longer 'warm up'. Sorry, no phase noise measurements but I am working on adding that to my repertoire. As shown in the manual, there is an external board that connects to the 85-50 with three wires supplying regulated +5VDC, ground, and a connection for the 10MHz out with a 100 ohm resistor to ground on that connection on the external board (which I don't think I have mentioned before). Forth, I did make one error in component value that is now corrected on the most recent schematic and that is the 8.2K resistor connected to the base of the oscillator transistor I originally miss read as a 1.2K. I suspect that Bruce's original analysis used 1.2K as the value of this resistor. Component values were obtained by using a magnifying glass to read the values or color codes then verified by using an LCR meter (4274A or SmartTweezer) or Fluke 8050A DMM. I wish I had a 'should be' schematic (anyone with a connection to OAC that could help with this?). All I could do was to 'derive' the schematic you have. The pot measured 4.7K. I do not know what it 'should be'. I did obtain the DC and RF voltages in stages as I progressed through the repair effort and my original schematic did not include all these measurements. The DC voltages were measured with the 8050A and the RF voltages with a TEK 485 and a 10:1 probe. The only component value I found 'out of range' was the .01 uF cap on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the output transistor on the Output Board and replacing it provided only 20% improvement in amplitude. All measurements were made with the oscillator oscillating and before any effort at repair. I did not go back and remeasure DC or RF voltages after replacing the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor. I must admit, I overlooked the low voltage at the bottom of the 4.7K pot. Perhaps I made an error in measurement but it does serve it's function. Perhaps there is a leaky .01 uF bypass cap on the Green wire on the Oscillator Board that I missed but I do not see how that might cause a low output amplitude. The 100K resistor measured correct and that should limit current there to the 15 uA range. Fifth, unfortunately, I do not have any 'spare' 10 MHz crystals and I did not think of substituting a different crystal. Sixth, I was wondering about the AGC issue and the only thought I had was that the 510 ohm resistor dropping the voltage to the Oscillator Board somehow might serve that function. However, raising that voltage to 5 volts made no difference in output amplitude. Lastly, the only part of the 85-50 that is not shown is the Oven Controller Board. It seemed to be functioning normally based on current measurements as the oven warmed up and the fact that the unit would come on frequency and was stable. It would be quite the challenge to disassemble that unit without risk of destroying the oven. As I noted above, the Red, the Black, and the Red/White wire connect to the Oven Controller Board but the Green and Yellow wires do not. My hope was to create a resource for anyone else looking for help in fixing this unit and it appears that there is quite the wealth of information here. If anyone has a site and would like to have the schematics and pictures I have, I would be happy to upload them. Thanks again for all the information. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WarrenS Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Here is a new observation about low Vcc. It is not likely that the Osc Vcc voltage and the Varicap freq control voltage is coming from the same 510 Ohm resistor without a regulator. Something is missing on the schematic, because now any Osc current change would cause the freq to change. And there is the missing 3 plus ma that can not be accounted for in your voltage measurements. The Osc and pot circuits as shown are drawing about 1.5 ma, and there seems to be almost 5ma going thru the 510 ohm. My guess is that this is from a 2.50 volt precision shunt regulator on the Vcc, in the Osc oven, but not shown on the schematic. That should be pretty easy to find. If so, make sure your 47 ohm fix does not cause the 2.490 volts to loose its regulation when the circuit is put back in the oven. The increase temp will cause the osc current to increase. If the EFC pot is really 10K ohm end to end, that would account for the other strange voltage readings. Also if the Freq as small as it is, is still correct, that would eliminate most of the bad xtral possibilities. ws From jmiles at pop.net Sat Jul 4 14:45:36 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:45:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Message-ID: Once Mark gets his latest .c file ready, I'll see about adding some Nixie digits to it. It could make sense, now that local time display options are being added. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Michael Baker > Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 7:07 AM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... > > > Hello, Time-Nutters.... > > A question about possible software modifications > to the Lady Heather display: > > Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty > (black background) area on the left side of the > screen, between the top of the graph area and > the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. > > When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line > appears in that large empty space that indicates > the time where the cursor is sitting. > > Other than that, it is just a large empty space > in the display. > > Is this space being used (or reserved) for something > I don't know about? > > Is there some reason why a running time display > with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed > in that area? Something that could be clearly > read from across the room? > > Thanks-- > > Mike Baker > ------------------- > > From rdarlington at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 14:45:59 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 08:45:59 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> References: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Message-ID: I took a screen shot showing the area Mike is talking about with a big red X and a #1. I noticed also that in this shot that there is another block of unused space when changing to the 24 hour plot. I have this marked with a big red X and a #2 in the attached photo. Is this a scaling issue where the graph changes size instead of fills the original space? It also might be nice to have some data points for the oadev plots rather than just a curve or at least a few tick marks at 10^n seconds. Thank you for a very slick software package by the way. In no way am I bashing it. -Bob [image: lh-whitespace.png] On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Michael Baker wrote: > Hello, Time-Nutters.... > > A question about possible software modifications > to the Lady Heather display: > > Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty > (black background) area on the left side of the > screen, between the top of the graph area and > the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. > > When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line > appears in that large empty space that indicates > the time where the cursor is sitting. > > Other than that, it is just a large empty space > in the display. > > Is this space being used (or reserved) for something > I don't know about? > Is there some reason why a running time display > with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed > in that area? Something that could be clearly > read from across the room? > > Thanks-- > > Mike Baker > ------------------- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 56072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Brucekareen at aol.com Sat Jul 4 14:46:12 2009 From: Brucekareen at aol.com (Brucekareen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 10:46:12 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Connecting Wireless Adapter to a TBolt Message-ID: Thanks to all for your suggestions. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 4 15:36:23 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:36:23 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The space marked #2 is due to the way the graph scales in 24 hour mode. You get 24 major divisions with 15 minute ticks. The divisions were set up so that time maps consistently to screen pixels (i.e. no rounding or dithering issues). 1024x768 mode uses 960 (24x40) pixels to display the plot. If the graph completely filled the space each hour would need 42.67 pixels. There is enough space there for another hour of data, but then it would be a 25 hour plot... The space marked #1 is a bit of a problem. If you have a Thunderbolt E, part of that space is taken up by the extra satellites that it can track. In the 800x600 mode that space is just not there. Also, the DOS/WIN98 version of the program uses a 8x16 font, so even in 1024x768 mode that space is much smaller (and totally used with a tbolt-E). A clock display would need to accommodate these issues. The oadev plots are already set up so that each major horizontal division is one tau step (1-2-5). Notice that each group of three major horizontal divisions is highlighted in the plot... these are the decade divisions. The oadev plot vertical scale is set up so that each pair of major divisions is a decade (the top line of the plot is 1E-9). Those lines are highlighted (the first highlighted division is 1E-10). The minor vertical ticks in the oadev plot represent the first digit of the mantissa of the value. So basically the vertical scale is logarithmic by decade, and linear within each decade. Unfortunately, if you took enough space to label the plot axes, the graphs get rather cramped and confusing. The osc/pps/temp/dac graphs do have the (vertical scale factor) and values indicated. A '~' means that that value is dynamically calculated. An '=' means that that value is fixed. The latest version will support an optional polar az/el/signal level plot. You can either place it where the adev tables are now or at the right end of the plot area (and the 24 hour plot turns into a 12 hour plot). ---------------------- I took a screen shot showing the area Mike is talking about with a big red X and a #1. I noticed also that in this shot that there is another block of unused space when changing to the 24 hour plot. I have this marked with a big red X and a #2 in the attached photo.-------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 4 20:49:33 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:49:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: Message from "Kit Scally" of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:21:44 +1000." Message-ID: <20090704204934.5ACFFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - > this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given > absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the > results ... What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough to get a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This might be a good excuse to get a good camera.) How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but that's likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to mask the initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sat Jul 4 22:12:27 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:12:27 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: <20090704204934.5ACFFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: On 7/4/09 1:49 PM, "Hal Murray" wrote: > > >> I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - >> this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given >> absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the >> results ... > > What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? > > I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough to get > a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This might be a good > excuse to get a good camera.) > > How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but that's > likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to mask the > initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. > > Clearly, the tool of choice is a plasma cutter, because you don't get the oxidation you do with the oxyacetylene torch, and it works better on stainless steel anyway. Actually, what about a sharp knife making repeated trips around the edge (think of a tubing cutter). You get a very clean cut. For the old TO-5 type cans, I've chucked the device in a suitable drill press (a lathe would work), and used a utility knife on a suitable rest (e.g. A block of wood). You probably aren't lucky enough to have a round can, though. Or a cutoff wheel or saw blade on a dremel type tool. Both work quite nicely. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 4 23:06:01 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:06:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:20:03 +0200." <4A4E8413.3090104@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> >>> Anyone else lose an 18x? >> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything >> useful. > Battery failure? I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended periods of time. Mine was less than a year old. It had been plugged in and working fine for several months. Then it just died. > The things I have been pointing to is to specific firmware bugs or > missfeatures. Doesn't rule out a whole line of other failure modes. > Soft-lockup conditions triggered by external commands or electrical > events included. A firmware bug would explain things. So would a loose connection. It was just sitting there working when it died, so I don't expect that anything strange electrical or mechanical happened. As I was poking around, double checking things to make sure I didn't inject too much noise into this discussion, it started working again. It could be the firmware recovered or maybe I jiggled a loose connection back together. In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? The case is hard plastic with no obvious screws. The bottom has a layer of tough non-skid, non-scratch rubber/plastic. I have peeled some of it back (hard work) but I haven't found any screws yet. They may be under the magnets which are either glued in or snap into their holes. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From analogaficionado at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 02:43:35 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:43:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Message-ID: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, this is my first post to the list... Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer to try and run everything under OS X. Some specific questions I have: - How well do the different drivers work? - Is one faster than the other? - What about compatability with various software? Are the software interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used with minimal tweaking? Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! Chad. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Jul 5 02:50:57 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:50:57 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/4/09 7:43 PM, "Chad Simpson" wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > Actually, this is quite timely.. I've been looking for a basic Ethernet/GPIB box at work.. Jim From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Jul 5 03:02:39 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:02:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message from Chad Simpson of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:43:35 PDT." <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090705030240.C82FABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with > the GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have > narrowed the choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or > GPIB-LAN), but I haven't found much information about the differences > between the two. Apart from the obvious (price, tether distance from > the PC), can anyone comment on the pros & cons of the two I have one of the older USB versions. I'm happy with it. It uses one of the popular USB to serial chips so it looks like a typical serial port and the driver should be well debugged. I use it from Linux with no troubles. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 03:04:08 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> Chad Simpson wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > > Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! > Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > The GPIB-LAN device doesn't require drivers so it should work on any modern OS (and hardware) that implements networking via UTP cable and uses TCP/IP. The GPIB-USB adapter needs a driver for the OS in use. Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so you would need to roll your own). The configuration tool for the GPIB-LAN device is a Windows program but you should only need to use it to initially configure the device. The critical configuration parameters are stored in non volatile memory. Bruce From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Jul 5 03:26:07 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:26:07 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Griffiths of "Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200." <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB > device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so > you would need to roll your own). I'd be surprised if it takes any driver work. I have one of the older Prologix units. It uses one of the FTDI USB to serial chips. I doubt if they have changed anything as drastic as this. I haven't used OS-X. There are 2 chips that have mostly cornered the market on USB-to-serial adapters: FTDI and Prolific. I expect most OSes (and distributions) include well debugged drivers for both. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From rdarlington at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 03:36:41 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:36:41 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without any trouble. It's extremely easy to use. That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote a spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope that nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these devices are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in a drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. -Bob On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Chad Simpson wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. > Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment > on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent > to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I > prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > > Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! > Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Jul 5 05:40:25 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:40:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without any > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote a > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope that > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these devices > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in a > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > -Bob I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. Jim From vk2ihl at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 09:47:33 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:47:33 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> Hi Joe I am just a radio amateur and I build a lot of oscillators for my need, including a GPSDO "tunable" with CW25-TIM GPS receiver chip set. Please allow me to share my usual trouble shooting when oscillator is not working properly. I see an oscillator is just only a high gain amplifier with positive feed back via "narrow band pass" filtering to sustain an oscillation in a controllable manner. I had a look at your circuit with all Vcbe of all transistors transcribed, it seems to me all transistors are within normal limit (bias # 0v7). Please look at the "narrow filter", my suggestion is to check this circuit. 1) 22pF in parallel with a serial (10uH - 30pF) is a diplexer, high impedance to ground for 10 MHz and low impedance to ground for unwanted spectrum. 2) 80 pF feed back capacitor. 3) 10 MHz Xtal Now I can perform a differential diagnosis: All transistors are correctly biased, can eliminated fault from power supply and transistors. A quick and dirty approach is to do a loose coupling (capacitor or inductor) with the 10 uH inductor, connect to an external 10 MHz variable output source, check gain of all transistor stages to the last output Check high impedance to ground for 10 MHz, disconnect the "diplexer", check magnitude of output signal, signal is increasing, hurray we see the problem. Same signal level, put the diplexer back to the circuit, check the 80 pF cap, all else failed, the last component of the "narrow filter" is the Xtal. Good luck Pascal Nguyen vk2ihl / xv2pn From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 10:07:58 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:07:58 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > I am just a radio amateur and I build a lot of oscillators for my need, > including a GPSDO "tunable" with CW25-TIM GPS receiver chip set. Please > allow me to share my usual trouble shooting when oscillator is not working > properly. > I see an oscillator is just only a high gain amplifier with positive feed > back via "narrow band pass" filtering to sustain an oscillation in a > controllable manner. > I had a look at your circuit with all Vcbe of all transistors transcribed, > it seems to me all transistors are within normal limit (bias # 0v7). > Please look at the "narrow filter", my suggestion is to check this circuit. > 1) 22pF in parallel with a serial (10uH - 30pF) is a diplexer, high > impedance to ground for 10 MHz and low impedance to ground for unwanted > spectrum. > A poor description that misses the function of this inductor entirely, such a network acts as a mode suppressor by making the impedance to ground inductive for the crystal mode that is being suppressed. If one of the 2 feedback capacitors in the Colpitts oscillator is replaced by an C || (L+C) network oscillation won't occur in the frequency range for which that network is inductive. > 2) 80 pF feed back capacitor. > 3) 10 MHz Xtal > > Now I can perform a differential diagnosis: > > All transistors are correctly biased, can eliminated fault from power supply > and transistors. > > A quick and dirty approach is to do a loose coupling (capacitor or inductor) > with the 10 uH inductor, connect to an external 10 MHz variable output > source, check gain of all transistor stages to the last output > > Check high impedance to ground for 10 MHz, disconnect the "diplexer", check > magnitude of output signal, signal is increasing, hurray we see the problem. > > Bad idea, the (overtone??) crystal will then probably oscillate at the frequency of the mode that this network is intended to suppress. Better (if possible) to actually measure the impedance of this network as a function of frequency to check that its has the required characteristic. As far as I can deduce this circuit limits the amplitude by having the oscillator transistor saturate for a part of the oscillation cycle. Its better to use transistor cutoff as the limiting mechanism as its quieter. However this requires a larger oscillator transistor Vcb than is used in this circuit. Excessive loss in the frequency determining network or a lossy varicap or circuit board can significantly reduce the crystal current to well below the design value. > Same signal level, put the diplexer back to the circuit, check the 80 pF > cap, all else failed, the last component of the "narrow filter" is the Xtal. > > > Good luck > > Pascal Nguyen > vk2ihl / xv2pn > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bruce From philipp80 at gmx.de Sun Jul 5 11:59:55 2009 From: philipp80 at gmx.de (philipp80 at gmx.de) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:59:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5095BB.5060808@gmx.de> Hi Chad, i have some Agilent E5810A GPIB-LAN-Gateways for sale. They are used but like new. You can got more informations here: http://129.69.137.180/gpib/ Price is 299 EUR incl. german VAT plus shipping. You will get an invoice. We also have GPIB-cables 0.5m in stock, 10 EUR for one cable. If you or anybody else is interessted or needs more information, please let my know by eMail. Best Regards Philipp From wje at quackers.net Sun Jul 5 12:26:02 2009 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:26:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A509BDA.4080206@quackers.net> Lux, James P wrote: I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. Jim I have one of the LAN units also. I've written a number of scripts for it using Java. Anything that can open a port can use the device easily. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Jul 5 14:50:51 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:50:51 +0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest Ethernet. - With any kind of equipment in question! Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device drivers, it works with longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's routable, you can use it remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) and because there are no need for drivers it's much more platform / OS independent than USB. USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB port, like mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB devices won't work with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which need to be installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking about the issue when you install a driver and later plug it into different USB port the system will ask you to isntall the driver again. Also, many USB devices based on some kind of USB-Serial chip (like FTDI) may have different COM-addresses for different USB ports and this leads to same kind of issue: it works only with one USB port witout changing some settings. In the worst case you must remember the corrent USB port for each device. With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which switch) you plug in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of your local network (or there is VPN remote connection to your network). But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You can use it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers etc. and write some kind of command scripts for the instruments. Maybe it's not best possible software for Prologix but it it's free. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From demianm_1 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 16:40:21 2009 From: demianm_1 at yahoo.com (Demian Martin) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:40:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Message-ID: <35DA50F2BF924D48AF881893ED3DA658@DemianM1330> I looked at the Prologix stuff long and hard BUT it is something of a dead end. I didn't want to write new software and I have some existing apps that I use. I found an NI gpib-enet ( http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/D2E1B6D23CD75B0686256D4E006E980D ) on ebay that has worked fine for me. The first gen is a little bit of a problem to use since it predated DHCP and setting its IP address is involved. Ones its up all of the NI GPIB stuff work with it as does other GPIB stuff. I would get the gpib-enet 100 for a business application since it supports DHCP and NI supports it in the latest releases. Demian Martin Product Design Service From support at prologix.biz Sun Jul 5 17:44:58 2009 From: support at prologix.biz (Prologix) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 10:44:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: Message from Bruce Griffiths of "Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200." <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: Some clarifications... Prologix GPIB-USB and GPIB-LAN have identical command interfaces. Programs written for one can be easily ported to the other. Both products are compatible with EZGPIB and KE5FX GPIB toolkit applications. GPIB-LAN, being a network device, does not require special drivers nor is limited by USB cable tethering distance. Also, GPIB-LAN can be wireless enabled (using a bridge). GPIB-USB drivers are available for Windows Vista, Max OS X (Intel and non-Intel), and for all common operating systems. Python, C, C#, VB.Net, MATLAB and LabVIEW samples are available at our website. (You can communicate with Prologix controllers using LabVIEW Serial Port functions or TCP functions. However, they are not compatible with programs (VIs) that use GPIB functions.) Regards, Abdul http://prologix.biz -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB > device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so > you would need to roll your own). I'd be surprised if it takes any driver work. I have one of the older Prologix units. It uses one of the FTDI USB to serial chips. I doubt if they have changed anything as drastic as this. I haven't used OS-X. There are 2 chips that have mostly cornered the market on USB-to-serial adapters: FTDI and Prolific. I expect most OSes (and distributions) include well debugged drivers for both. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From vk2ihl at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 20:51:31 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:51:31 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Hi Joe Please open the link below http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band pass filter Kind regards Pascal Nguyen From time-nuts at kasperkp.dk Sun Jul 5 21:45:15 2009 From: time-nuts at kasperkp.dk (Kasper Pedersen) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:45:15 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS 18x death and resurrection - was: GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A511EEB.20002@kasperkp.dk> Hal Murray wrote: > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > periods of time. > There is a battery inside. A tiny little Panasonic rechargeable lithium cell. Mine were at 2.7V. > Mine was less than a year old. It had been plugged in and working fine for > several months. Then it just died. > Six months. The most recent component is dated 0751, so they've been in storage for a while before I got them. > As I was poking around, double checking things to make sure I didn't inject > too much noise into this discussion, it started working again. > I discharged the batteries on my pair. 0.6V was not low enough, then I tried again with a dead short for a few minutes, and they both came alive again. So just discharging in the drawer for a month or two might bring it back to life. So I support the 'yet another buggy firmware' theory. MediaTek.tw does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. > In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? > The case is two cups. The top has two 'rings' 2mm apart, the outer ring being the outside of the top. The bottom also has two rings, 1mm smaller than the top. The cavity between the two rings on the bottom is filled with silicone before the top is pushed on. It is held in place with 3 snap locks, one of which is right next to the thickest bulge on the strain relief. If you insert a flat screwdriver and pry the top up exactly opposite that bulge, you can get the silicone to release and it's then relatively easy to see where the snaps are. Apply force. If you have compressed air, pull off the bottom label, pull the green seal off the breather hole, and apply compressed air. The magnets are glued on from the inside, there's nothing on the outside. (and on a side note, the tiny little TCXOs in them are both ~1.4 ppm low) /Kasper Pedersen From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 22:08:19 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:08:19 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A512453.5050101@xtra.co.nz> Pascal There is also a parallel resonance in the L2 C6 C7 network. Plus several self resonances in L2. To get a more complete picture you need to also include the phase shift and gain over a wide band as the phase shift determines whether oscillation is possible when the loop gain is greater than 1. Bruce Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band > pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 23:55:38 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:55:38 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A513D7A.4070403@xtra.co.nz> Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band > pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Pascal On a closer look your simulation has very little value at all. If one is using an AC analysis its far more informative to open the feedback loop an inject a signal to measure the loop gain and phase. One then has sufficient information to determine if the oscillator has sufficient gain and an aprpriate phase shift for oscillation to occur at a given frequency. Your analysis injects an external signal whilst leaving the oscillator feedback loop closed - not helpful or particularly useful at all. If one wishes to simulate the actual output amplitude, then no extra source is required with a good simulator the oscillator will oscillate and limit. With the relatively low Q for the the crystal you have assumed the oscillator will start and limit within a reasonable time without problems as long as you dont use to short a minimum time step. You have also assumed a fundamental crystal, an overtone crystal with a somewaht higher ESR than 7 ohms is far more likely to have been used, but without measuring the actual crystal one cannot be certain. Bruce From jltran at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 6 01:12:27 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:12:27 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A513D7A.4070403@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: Bruce, Pascal, and anyone else, Stanley Reynolds has hosted my pictures of the unit as well as the schematic. The link is here: http://www.n4iqt.com/JLTrantham/85-50/ Hopefully, this will be helpful to someone in the future. I appreciate all the effort everyone has put into this and it will take me months to 'digest' all the information. I put the counter to work today and it functioned well. I am going to leave it on for about a week and see where the oscillator is. I will try to bring it on frequency after it has been on for 24 - 48 hours then let it run. I have 3 of these, all with Option 004 and we will see where they are at the end of a week or so. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow > band pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Pascal On a closer look your simulation has very little value at all. If one is using an AC analysis its far more informative to open the feedback loop an inject a signal to measure the loop gain and phase. One then has sufficient information to determine if the oscillator has sufficient gain and an aprpriate phase shift for oscillation to occur at a given frequency. Your analysis injects an external signal whilst leaving the oscillator feedback loop closed - not helpful or particularly useful at all. If one wishes to simulate the actual output amplitude, then no extra source is required with a good simulator the oscillator will oscillate and limit. With the relatively low Q for the the crystal you have assumed the oscillator will start and limit within a reasonable time without problems as long as you dont use to short a minimum time step. You have also assumed a fundamental crystal, an overtone crystal with a somewaht higher ESR than 7 ohms is far more likely to have been used, but without measuring the actual crystal one cannot be certain. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:04:39 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:04:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P wrote: > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without > any > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote > a > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope > that > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > devices > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in > a > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > -Bob > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. > > Jim > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly pythonlabtools as well. I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no longer have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, the more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk of obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, and if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd rather not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary (single-platform) drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly portable and well supported in the future. I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear on how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. - Chad. From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:14:15 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:14:15 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If you are willing to (or want to) write your own software, than the Prologix Ethernet adapter is the way to go. I've done it in PERL under Solaris and IRIX without any trouble. Just open a socket connection on port 23 and send over text commands. Very easy. MUCH easier than using NI products. The trade-off is that your software will only work with the Prologix box and guarantees incompatability for those without one. The upside is that it works over a network, even wireless if you plug it into a wireless bridge. Real handy when you don't want to stay tied to a workbench. These are extra nice if all you have is a laptop. Mine is currently in a drawer, but I'm not willing to part with it because it's just that handy when you need something done fast. -Bob On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Chad Simpson wrote: > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P >wrote: > > > > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB > without > > any > > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I > wrote > > a > > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope > > that > > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If > you > > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > > devices > > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly > or > > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting > in > > a > > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts > > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying > to > > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that > way. > > > > Jim > > > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly > pythonlabtools as well. > > I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no longer > have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, the > more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost > disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk of > obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, > and > if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd rather > not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary (single-platform) > drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly > portable and well supported in the future. > > I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it > uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear on > how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. > > - Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:41:23 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:41:23 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> Message-ID: <688dcb840907051941y18bb100ek356384ef94a185ed@mail.gmail.com> Good points... and pretty much in line with my thinking. Based on the comments here, I'm strongly leaning toward the LAN version now. I'll definitely have a closer look at the KE5FX toolkit, there are some very interesting applications there. Thanks everyone for your input. Looks like I have a bit more homework to do on the software end of things, but this has been very informative. - Chad. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Esa Heikkinen wrote: > If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest Ethernet. - > With any kind of equipment in question! > > Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device drivers, it works with > longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's routable, you can use it > remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) and because there are no > need for drivers it's much more platform / OS independent than USB. > > USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB port, like > mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB devices won't work > with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which need to be > installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking about the issue > when you install a driver and later plug it into different USB port the > system will ask you to isntall the driver again. Also, many USB devices > based on some kind of USB-Serial chip (like FTDI) may have different > COM-addresses for different USB ports and this leads to same kind of issue: > it works only with one USB port witout changing some settings. In the worst > case you must remember the corrent USB port for each device. > > With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which switch) you plug > in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of your local > network (or there is VPN remote connection to your network). > > But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) > > I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You can use > it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers etc. and write > some kind of command scripts for the instruments. Maybe it's not best > possible software for Prologix but it it's free. > > -- > 73s! > Esa > OH4KJU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:53:05 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:53:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <688dcb840907051953l79d8dd98la5864cddc3a715da@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it should be pretty simple, even in shell. I have some noodle-scratching to do on retrieving graphical output from instruments though. I'm not terribly concerned about being compatible with other hardware, as long as the hardware I get won't be left useless or anchored to an archaic OS because there are drivers etc. which become 'unsupported' by the vendor. - Chad. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Robert Darlington wrote: > If you are willing to (or want to) write your own software, than the > Prologix Ethernet adapter is the way to go. I've done it in PERL under > Solaris and IRIX without any trouble. Just open a socket connection on > port > 23 and send over text commands. Very easy. MUCH easier than using NI > products. The trade-off is that your software will only work with the > Prologix box and guarantees incompatability for those without one. The > upside is that it works over a network, even wireless if you plug it into a > wireless bridge. Real handy when you don't want to stay tied to a > workbench. These are extra nice if all you have is a laptop. Mine is > currently in a drawer, but I'm not willing to part with it because it's > just > that handy when you need something done fast. > > -Bob > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Chad Simpson >wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P > >wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > > > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and > issue > > > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB > > without > > > any > > > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I > > wrote > > > a > > > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 > scope > > > that > > > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work > with > > > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If > > you > > > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > > > devices > > > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very > quickly > > or > > > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting > > in > > > a > > > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell > scripts > > > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm > trying > > to > > > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that > > way. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, > possibly > > pythonlabtools as well. > > > > I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no > longer > > have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, > the > > more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost > > disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk > of > > obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, > > and > > if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd > rather > > not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary > (single-platform) > > drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly > > portable and well supported in the future. > > > > I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it > > uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear > on > > how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. > > > > - Chad. > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Mon Jul 6 04:00:11 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:00:11 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051941y18bb100ek356384ef94a185ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Gents, as you know I have tried in my utility EZGPIB to supply the user with high level functions for data communications which keep him away from the low level tasks of direct communication with the interface. Since EZGPIB not only supports the Prologix products (USB & LAN) but also GPIB32.DLL based products (i.e. the complete line of NI GPIB interfaces) a script written in EZGPIB is independent from a certain manufacturer to a high degree. That is the point that I wanted to add to the current discussion. Please allow me to note that this independence has its limits that I just happened to come across. I had tried to run a script for my SR620 counter which was set to a gate time of 100 s. The script was a quick and dirty one and set the timeout for GPIB communications to 120 s so that there was enough time for the counter to answer, even if the data was read immediatly after tze start of a new measurement. This script would not run ok on my Prologix GPIB-ETHERNET interface although I was sure that is was ok when I wrote it. It took me some time to realize that I was fooling myself: I had written the script with my NI interface which's DLL allows for some decades of magnitude of timeouts while the Prologix provide a maximum timeout of 4000 ms. That means: Some things cannot translated 1:1 between different manufactures. I changed the script so that the conunter's status byte was read once a second and the "data valid bit" is detected in the status byte. Then the counter's result is read. This of course run ok (also on NI hardware). I will include a warning in the manual of EZGPIB. Best regards Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Chad Simpson > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 04:41 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > Good points... and pretty much in line with my thinking. > Based on the comments here, I'm strongly leaning toward the > LAN version now. I'll definitely have a closer look at the > KE5FX toolkit, there are some very interesting applications there. > > Thanks everyone for your input. Looks like I have a bit more > homework to do on the software end of things, but this has > been very informative. > > - Chad. > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Esa Heikkinen > wrote: > > > If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest > > Ethernet. - With any kind of equipment in question! > > > > Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device > drivers, it works > > with longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's > routable, you > > can use it remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) > and because > > there are no need for drivers it's much more platform / OS > independent > > than USB. > > > > USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB > port, like > > mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB > devices won't > > work with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which > > need to be installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking > > about the issue when you install a driver and later plug it into > > different USB port the system will ask you to isntall the driver > > again. Also, many USB devices based on some kind of USB-Serial chip > > (like FTDI) may have different COM-addresses for different > USB ports > > and this leads to same kind of issue: it works only with > one USB port > > witout changing some settings. In the worst case you must > remember the > > corrent USB port for each device. > > > > With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which > switch) you > > plug in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of > > your local network (or there is VPN remote connection to your > > network). > > > > But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) > > > > I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You > > can use it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum > analyzers > > etc. and write some kind of command scripts for the > instruments. Maybe > > it's not best possible software for Prologix but it it's free. > > > > -- > > 73s! > > Esa > > OH4KJU > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Mon Jul 6 04:24:03 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:24:03 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A517C63.1070501@erols.com> Chad Simpson wrote: >> I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts >> for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to >> get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. >> >> Jim >> > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly > pythonlabtools as well. Then you should like the prologix usb adapter. It took me maybe a half hour to write an interface to it in python, and then I was up and running. A simple example: ------------------------- #! /usr/bin/env python # 7854.py - try out some gpib data collection using the Prologix gpib-usb controller # import os import termios import serial import time def gpib_init() : ser.write("++mode 1\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++ifc\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++auto 0\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++eoi 0\r") time.sleep(0.1) def gpib_read(addr): ser.write("++addr " + str(addr) + "\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++read eoi\r") return ser.readline() def gpib_write(addr,gpibstr): ser.write("++addr " + str(addr) + "\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write(gpibstr + "\r") ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',rtscts=0,timeout=1) ser.write("++ver\r") print ser.readline() gpib_init() gpib_write(10,"ID?\r") print "ID= " + gpib_read(10) + "\r" gpib_write(10,"VMDR\r") gpib_write(10,"HMDB\r") gpib_write(10,"1 0 2 4 >P/W AVG10\r") gpib_read(10) gpib_write(10,"SENDX\r") time.sleep(4) print "X=" + gpib_read(10) + "\r" print "X=" + gpib_read(10) + "\r" ------------------------- -Chuck Harris From jra at febo.com Mon Jul 6 12:37:09 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:37:09 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A51EFF5.3010906@febo.com> A bit further to Ulrich's point... one area where I had some problems using serial/gpib converters in the old days, and I think that at least early versions of the Prologix USB unit suffered from, is talking to multiple instruments off the same GPIB controller. I never found a satisfactory way to accomplish that with anything other than a "real" GPIB card. (But Prologix may have addressed this by now.) I think GPIB applications break down into a couple of categories: (a) simple trigger-then-read from a single instrument, which is what most of us do most of the time, and (b) multi-instrument control. The second case is a lot harder, particularly if you need to use SRQ and other out-of-band commands. Of course, an alternative is to assign one USB or LAN GPIB unit to each instrument, but that gets expensive. John ---- Ulrich Bangert wrote: > Gents, > > as you know I have tried in my utility EZGPIB to supply the user with high > level functions for data communications which keep him away from the low > level tasks of direct communication with the interface. Since EZGPIB not > only supports the Prologix products (USB & LAN) but also GPIB32.DLL based > products (i.e. the complete line of NI GPIB interfaces) a script written in > EZGPIB is independent from a certain manufacturer to a high degree. > > That is the point that I wanted to add to the current discussion. > > Please allow me to note that this independence has its limits that I just > happened to come across. I had tried to run a script for my SR620 counter > which was set to a gate time of 100 s. The script was a quick and dirty one > and set the timeout for GPIB communications to 120 s so that there was > enough time for the counter to answer, even if the data was read immediatly > after tze start of a new measurement. This script would not run ok on my > Prologix GPIB-ETHERNET interface although I was sure that is was ok when I > wrote it. > > It took me some time to realize that I was fooling myself: I had written the > script with my NI interface which's DLL allows for some decades of magnitude > of timeouts while the Prologix provide a maximum timeout of 4000 ms. That > means: Some things cannot translated 1:1 between different manufactures. I > changed the script so that the conunter's status byte was read once a second > and the "data valid bit" is detected in the status byte. Then the counter's > result is read. This of course run ok (also on NI hardware). I will include > a warning in the manual of EZGPIB. From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Mon Jul 6 12:55:28 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:55:28 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? Message-ID: <11F21C8F67DE45B1B956BD0F992E59C1@dd09> Hal, The Garmin 16-17 series has a domed lid that's well glued on to a cylindrical base. I sawed off a lid and took the following photo's. The electronic pcb (70 x 35mm) is internally secured by 2 self-tapping screws like the patch antenna plate mounted above. The 8-core cable exits via a sealed "plug" to stop ingress of air/water. The 16HVS has an internal 2.8v button cell. I "liberated" a large quantity of unused 16HVS some months ago. I don't have any idea how old they were - my guess is 2-3 years - but all fired up 100% so I guess the internal batteries were still doing their job ! Regards, Kit VK2LL -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Sunday, 5 July 2009 9:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? >>> Anyone else lose an 18x? In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? The case is hard plastic with no obvious screws. The bottom has a layer of tough non-skid, non-scratch rubber/plastic. I have peeled some of it back (hard work) but I haven't found any screws yet. They may be under the magnets which are either glued in or snap into their holes. >>snip -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Garmin 1 Processor small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Mon Jul 6 12:55:28 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:55:28 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? Message-ID: James, These are "before" photo's ... I think a Dremmel is the tool of choice ! Kit VK2LL -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Lux, James P Sent: Sunday, 5 July 2009 8:12 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? On 7/4/09 1:49 PM, "Hal Murray" wrote: > > >> I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - >> this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given >> absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the >> results ... > > What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? > > I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough > to get a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This > might be a good excuse to get a good camera.) > > How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but > that's likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to > mask the initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. > > Clearly, the tool of choice is a plasma cutter, because you don't get the oxidation you do with the oxyacetylene torch, and it works better on stainless steel anyway. Actually, what about a sharp knife making repeated trips around the edge (think of a tubing cutter). You get a very clean cut. For the old TO-5 type cans, I've chucked the device in a suitable drill press (a lathe would work), and used a utility knife on a suitable rest (e.g. A block of wood). You probably aren't lucky enough to have a round can, though. Or a cutoff wheel or saw blade on a dremel type tool. Both work quite nicely. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: E1938A xtal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 78617 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Jul 6 13:12:28 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:12:28 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <4A51EFF5.3010906@febo.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/09 5:37 AM, "John Ackermann N8UR" wrote: > > Of course, an alternative is to assign one USB or LAN GPIB unit to each > instrument, but that gets expensive. > Yes, if you're scrounging old test equipment for $100 a copy. If you have chunks of gear that cost $10K each, then $100-200 for individual interfaces might not be a bad thing, especially considering how much new GPIB cables cost. I'd much rather plug and unplug Cat5 network cables from a hub than deal with a stack of 3 or 4 of those GPIB connectors. Now that I think about it, if the LAN-GPIB adapter widgets did PoE, that would be even slicker. From wb6bnq at cox.net Mon Jul 6 13:12:42 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:12:42 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? References: Message-ID: <4A51F84A.D2E14310@cox.net> Hi Kit, From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 6 16:54:04 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:54:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From sam at canardpc.com Mon Jul 6 17:07:59 2009 From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC]) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:07:59 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Damn, that's a big flaw. The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de Mark Sims Envoy??: lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ??: time-nuts at febo.com Objet?: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 17:16:57 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:16:57 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip (or even a free sample of an FRAM chip) to get around the wear issues. I haven't opened my unit, but this is a serious issue as I'm gearing up to write software to make a "poor man's" network analyzer using a frequency synthesizer and a volt meter, switching between them pretty much as fast as possible. Maybe I'll just use that NI card ;-) -Bob On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Samuel D. [x86/CPC] wrote: > Damn, that's a big flaw. > > The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. > > Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la > part de Mark Sims > Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 > ? : time-nuts at febo.com > Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix > GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. > You can select different instruments that way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. > When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor > EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. > My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... > > All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate > wear > leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have > intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that > configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with > address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. > > I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my > MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL > plotter > routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 6 17:40:09 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 18:40:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: I thought FRAM required a refresh cycle like DRAM - or did I get my brain cells scrambled? D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Darlington Sent: 06 July 2009 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip ... From djl at montana.com Mon Jul 6 18:28:04 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:28:04 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: <910e42c125aa8429e7528c662ffdca37.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> I have used an interface from Softmark. I don't know if multiple interfaces can be applied, but they are USB. There's no local storage, everything is in the host, and I have not timed the use. OTH, they can be bought for about $40US on ebay or straight from the Aussies at softmark. Comes with dll's and an app... Don Robert Darlington > You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip (or even a free > sample of an FRAM chip) to get around the wear issues. I haven't opened > my > unit, but this is a serious issue as I'm gearing up to write software to > make a "poor man's" network analyzer using a frequency synthesizer and a > volt meter, switching between them pretty much as fast as possible. Maybe > I'll just use that NI card ;-) > > -Bob > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Samuel D. [x86/CPC] > wrote: > >> Damn, that's a big flaw. >> >> The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. >> >> Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ >> >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De >> la >> part de Mark Sims >> Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 >> ? : time-nuts at febo.com >> Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: >> Prologix >> GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN >> >> >> The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. >> You can select different instruments that way. >> >> Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal >> flaw. >> When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal >> microprocessor >> EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed >> instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be >> toast. >> My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... >> >> All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate >> wear >> leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to >> have >> intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save >> that >> configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death >> with >> address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. >> >> I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with >> my >> MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL >> plotter >> routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. >> http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 18:40:21 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:40:21 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: The chips I used in the past didn't need to get refreshed and they were pin compatible with an eeprom I was using in a PIC circuit with an i2c interface. They were basically identical with the exception that they don't wear out before the sun expands and swallows the earth, and they can be clocked many times faster than the i2c and spi spec. -Bob On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:40 AM, David C. Partridge < david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com> wrote: > I thought FRAM required a refresh cycle like DRAM - or did I get my brain > cells scrambled? > > D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Robert Darlington > Sent: 06 July 2009 18:17 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: > AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip ... > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From support at prologix.biz Mon Jul 6 18:53:16 2009 From: support at prologix.biz (Prologix) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:53:16 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> It is pretty straightforward to add a new command to turn on/off automatic saving of configuration parameters in the next firmware update. ETA is a week or two. Please email support at prologix.biz if you like to be notified when the update is available. Firmware updates may be downloaded from http://prologix.biz Thanks for all the feedback! Regards, Abdul Prologix -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Samuel D. [x86/CPC] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:08 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Damn, that's a big flaw. The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de Mark Sims Envoy??: lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ??: time-nuts at febo.com Objet?: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From djl at montana.com Mon Jul 6 19:17:17 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:17:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> Message-ID: Prologix: Just for ducks, if there is room, there to be a GPIB-address-addressed-parameter storage for, say, 5-6 devices? Don Prologix > > It is pretty straightforward to add a new command to turn on/off automatic > saving of configuration parameters in the next firmware update. > ETA is a week or two. Please email support at prologix.biz if you like to be > notified when the update is available. > > Firmware updates may be downloaded from http://prologix.biz > > Thanks for all the feedback! > > Regards, > Abdul > Prologix > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Samuel D. [x86/CPC] > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:08 AM > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: > AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > Damn, that's a big flaw. > > The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. > > Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la > part de Mark Sims Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ? : > time-nuts at febo.com > Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: > Prologix > GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. > You can select different instruments that way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal > flaw. > When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor > EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. > My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... > > All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate > wear > leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have > intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that > configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with > address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. > > I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with > my > MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL > plotter > routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From cfharris at erols.com Mon Jul 6 20:35:22 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:35:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A52600A.7020405@erols.com> Hi Mark, Mark Sims wrote: > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that > way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device > writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in > under a day... Hmmm? This is what Microchip says: The data EEPROM is a high-endurance, byte addressable array that has been optimized for the storage of frequently changing information (eg., program variables or other data that are updated often). When variables in one section change frequently, while variables in another section do not change, it is possible to exceed the total number of write cycles to the EEPROM (Specification D124) without exceeding the total number of write cycles to a single byte (Specifications D120 and D120A). If this is the case, then a refresh of the array must be performed. For this reason, variables that change infrequently (such as constants, IDs, calibration, etc.) should be stored in Flash program memory. It isn't that the EEPROM wears out, but more that it loses the values in adjacent cells... unless you refresh them before 1 million cycles occurs. All that aside, it isn't clear to me that the ++addr even writes to EEPROM. In fact, in the section of my prologix manual where it discusses the use of EEPROM, it specifically says that the EEPROM stores configuration information, and that addr is not configuration information, and must be set as needed. -Chuck Harris From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 03:13:19 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:13:19 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything >>> useful. > >> Battery failure? > > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > periods of time. Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. Many of the GPS OEM boards I have seen has support for RTC battery. Is also used to keep CMOS for waypoints. Cheers, Magnus From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 7 03:49:24 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:49:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson of "Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:13:19 +0200." <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering > week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea > of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient > hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial > extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every > once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM > space. A byte would suffice. My comment about batteries was thinking of non-rechargable ones. There is no reasonable way to open the unit to replace a battery. What's the lifetime of a rechargeable battery? I guess it doesn't matter much if the capacity decreases a lot as long as the unit can recover when the battery is dead. My model of a GPS receiver is that it uses the time and ephemeris data to predict the frequencies to listen on. It needs to correct for Doppler. That's assuming the position hasn't changed (much). How long is an ephemeris good for? If it's too stale or the RTC has drifted too much then it might as well start cold. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jul 7 03:48:51 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:48:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> Magnus Danielson writes: : Hal Murray wrote: : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? : > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything : >>> useful. : > : >> Battery failure? : > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended : > periods of time. : : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not suitable. Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 or 15 year deep spares requirements... Warner From vk2ihl at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 04:42:32 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:42:32 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907062142g3eb2bc2bgb4d4dd151b1d3c@mail.gmail.com> Hi 18X owners I experienced same problem with my fleet of 16HVS (originated from Kit Scally ?). The non functioning GPS is not on Garmin PVT mode, neither NMEA mode !!!. Reconfigured by using SNSRCFG software switch to NMEA or Garmin mode, my 16HVS is back to business. http://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00321-05 Pascal On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 1:48 PM, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> > Magnus Danielson writes: > : Hal Murray wrote: > : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > : > > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything > : >>> useful. > : > > : >> Battery failure? > : > > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. > Too > : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for > extended > : > periods of time. > : > : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover > : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, > : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting > : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting > : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same > : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. > > Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not > suitable. > > Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long > storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of > course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may > be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 > or 15 year deep spares requirements... > > Warner > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From martyn at ptsyst.com Tue Jul 7 09:56:36 2009 From: martyn at ptsyst.com (Martyn Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:56:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions Message-ID: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Hello, I have been asked a question from a friend and would like to hear what the time-nuts have to say about the M12+ and M12M GPS receivers. His questions were: 1) It would be great if you could outline the broad algorithm and bits of information that go into keeping the 1 pps aligned to UTC. I want to be able to can ensure that we're at least aware of all the subtle effects (such as illustrated in the next question). 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is the 1pps affected in any way? Time-Nuts. Any help on these two questions would be appreciated Steve Jones From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 10:25:07 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:25:07 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I don't have a die stock)? Thanks David Partridge From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 7 10:29:38 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:29:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: Message from "Martyn Smith" of "Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:56:36 +0200." <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Message-ID: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate > gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections > (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in > particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is > the 1pps affected in any way? Check the data sheet on the unit. It probably has a section describing the leap second stuff. They happen infrequently enough that you can usually get the info by other means. I'm sure the next one will be announced here. GPS works on GPS time. The satellites tell you the offset to UTC. I expect that offset kicks over at the magic time, but I wouldn't be surprised by bugs. Somebody may have data from watching the last time we had one. (I was watching a NMEA unit. It inserted the leap second at midnight GPS time rather than midnight UTC.) The PPS is tied to GPS time. I don't expect any quirks from leap seconds. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 11:32:06 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:32:06 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <4A533236.8080403@rubidium.dyndns.org> M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> > Magnus Danielson writes: > : Hal Murray wrote: > : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > : > > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything > : >>> useful. > : > > : >> Battery failure? > : > > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > : > periods of time. > : > : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover > : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, > : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting > : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting > : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same > : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. > > Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not > suitable. > > Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long > storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of > course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may > be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 > or 15 year deep spares requirements... I agree that they are not suitable for that type of application. However, it does not make the battery unsuitable for GPSes as such, which was the point I was trying to make. How and if this detail springs to mind for any particular vendor is the issue. A flakey RTC may be more of a problem than a live one or a dead one. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 11:49:33 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:49:33 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A53364D.7050407@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering >> week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea >> of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient >> hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial >> extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every >> once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM >> space. A byte would suffice. > > My comment about batteries was thinking of non-rechargable ones. There is no > reasonable way to open the unit to replace a battery. What's the lifetime of > a rechargeable battery? I guess it doesn't matter much if the capacity > decreases a lot as long as the unit can recover when the battery is dead. > > My model of a GPS receiver is that it uses the time and ephemeris data to > predict the frequencies to listen on. It needs to correct for Doppler. > That's assuming the position hasn't changed (much). > > How long is an ephemeris good for? If it's too stale or the RTC has drifted > too much then it might as well start cold. The ephimeris data could get you pretty good cold start even after a year or two, even if it is probably rated as dated anyway. If you haven't moved significantly since last fix (like different continent) it is enought to start tracking the right set of sats to get going. It takes 15 min to get a full ephimeris for the full constellation, and that only requires one single fix anyway. As soon as you get a fix you get the precission ephimeris anyway, and that is what you use for positioning, so the almenac is just for getting an initial fix. Storing ephimeris and last fix on CMOS SRAM with battery backup gives a head-start, which is more important for positioning GPSes than timing GPSes. Battery isn't meaningless, but maybe just not worth the trouble for some cases. Several GPSes have battery input from external, you could put a lead-cell or whatever there if you want. Cheers, Magnus From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 12:06:58 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:06:58 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting die they > would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I don't have a > die stock)? > > Thanks > David Partridge > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 12:14:46 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:14:46 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate >> gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections >> (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in >> particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is >> the 1pps affected in any way? > > Check the data sheet on the unit. It probably has a section describing the > leap second stuff. It is rarely beyond slogan level, if even mentioned in the datasheets. The manual rarely says much useful on the subject either. It happends from time to time that receivers freezes on leap seconds only for the stupid reasons it was not tested by the vendor. A simple single sat GPS emulator would have helped to trigger the bug, which is sufficient for timing receivers and should work for position receivers too. > They happen infrequently enough that you can usually get the info by other > means. I'm sure the next one will be announced here. There won't be one next new years even, it just became official yesterday. That was expected. > GPS works on GPS time. The satellites tell you the offset to UTC. I expect > that offset kicks over at the magic time, but I wouldn't be surprised by > bugs. Somebody may have data from watching the last time we had one. (I was > watching a NMEA unit. It inserted the leap second at midnight GPS time > rather than midnight UTC.) OUPS! > The PPS is tied to GPS time. I don't expect any quirks from leap seconds. If only listening to PPS and don't care about the time associated with it, you are safe. GPS time or UTC time should work equally well. I think you should fetch the GPS ICD 200 document and read up on the details in the signal structure on how UTC is represented in relationship to the GPS signal. Then imagine all the bugs there can be. There are (at least) three interpretations of when leap-seconds may be inserted: 1) At the end of every month. 2) At the end of every quarter. 3) At the end of every half-year. GPS is operated under the assumption that case 3 holds. There exist equipment assuming that case 2 holds. The actual definition allows for case 1, making case 3 the primary preference and case 2 the secondary preference. Lovely mess, isn't it? Anyway, if I don't recall it incorrectly (OK lazy to check), the GPS signal actually indicate WHEN then upcomming leap second will occur. This reduces to a up-comming leap second flag out of the GPS OEM board which can trigger pre-maturely execution of leap-second algorithm on the timing receiver, as we have seen in the Z3801A for instance. Cheers, Magnus From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 12:20:01 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:20:01 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> Message-ID: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I > don't have a die stock)? > > Thanks > David Partridge > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 12:57:06 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:57:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge From jltran at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 7 12:59:47 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:59:47 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061B Parts Help Message-ID: <6CDF337F4BE94C8B9B96BD561975026D@S0028384766> I have a 5061B that I have resuscitated but it is missing some of the mechanical parts that link the OSC FREQUENCY COARSE adjustment to the 10811. It is not a terrible problem since I can reach the adjustment with a long 'twiddler' but I thought I would try to find or make replacement parts. What I am missing are parts MP1, MP3, H2, MP4, H6, H7, H1, H5 and MP2 as shown on the attached (somewhat poor) scan from the manual, going from the front panel to the 10811. The real problem, I suspect, will be parts MP1, MP2, MP3 and MP4. Might anyone have these parts? Failing that, does anyone have a functioning unit that you can send me some pictures and a description of this portion of the unit? I would like to see what it is supposed to look like before I begin fabrication. Thanks in advance. Joe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5061B A10 Parts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 63667 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 13:06:44 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:06:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, A 3/4" pipe thread die will also work. Both NPT and BSP are 14tpi and have approx 1" major diameter. Try taking your bit of pipe to a gas fitter. Clarke sell a multi-die kit for ?35 inc VAT, http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht392-6-piece-pipe-threading-kit Regards, Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 1:20 PM > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for.? What > is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A > thread cutting > > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a > die nut type as I > > don't have a die stock)? > > > > Thanks > > David Partridge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 13:35:06 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:35:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Message-ID: <53949.87.227.52.225.1246973706.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Dave, Check with your local "plumbing"-store. In Sweden the "old inch based pipe thread" lives on, slightly renamed. Se attached .jpg for approximate inside/outside diameters. The pipes are sold in 6m lenghts threaded in both ends. Good luck in your search! -- Bj?rn > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pipe_dimentions.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:46:29 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:46:29 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39B9C8F3AD604C1BA53D21E538DDE23B@APOLLO> I tried a 3/4" BSP but that didn't quite fit. NPT is probably right ... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: 07 July 2009 14:07 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Hi Dave, A 3/4" pipe thread die will also work. Both NPT and BSP are 14tpi and have approx 1" major diameter. Try taking your bit of pipe to a gas fitter. Clarke sell a multi-die kit for ?35 inc VAT, http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht392-6-piece-pipe-thread ing-kit Regards, Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 1:20 PM > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for.? What is your > application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A > thread cutting > > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a > die nut type as I > > don't have a die stock)? > > > > Thanks > > David Partridge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:47:27 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:47:27 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:53:50 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:53:50 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO><4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 14:23:42 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO><4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 14:32:41 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:32:41 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Hi Dave, That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > is where I got > the specification for the thread from. > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > Dave From TimeNut at austin.rr.com Tue Jul 7 14:38:35 2009 From: TimeNut at austin.rr.com (Graham / KE9H) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:38:35 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> References: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Message-ID: <4A535DEB.6070200@austin.rr.com> Martyn Smith wrote: > Hello, > > I have been asked a question from a friend and would like to hear what > the > time-nuts have to say about the M12+ and M12M GPS receivers. > > His questions were: > > 1) It would be great if you could outline the broad algorithm and bits of > information that go into keeping the 1 pps aligned to UTC. I want to be > able to can ensure that we're at least aware of all the subtle effects > (such > as illustrated in the next question). > > 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate gps > time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections (such > as on > midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? > 2.1) in particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, > and is the 1pps affected in any way? > > Time-Nuts. Any help on these two questions would be appreciated > > Steve Jones > > Your friend should download the manual from the Synergy-GPS website. http://www.synergy-gps.com/ Page 114 of the M12+ Timing receiver manual says: LEAP SECOND STATUS MESSAGE (@@Bj) Applicability: M12+ Timing and Positioning Receivers This message polls the receiver for current leap second status information that has been decoded from the Navigation Data message received from the GPS satellites. The data sent back by the receiver provides specific date and time information pertaining to any future leap second addition or subtraction. Leap seconds are occasionally inserted in UTC and generally occur on midnight UTC June 30th or midnight UTC December 31st. The GPS control segment typically notifies GPS users of pending leap second insertions to UTC several weeks before the event. When a leap second is inserted, the time of day will show a value of '60' in the seconds field. When a leap second is removed, the date will roll over at 58 seconds. The 'current UTC offset' will be zero if the receiver is set up to run in GPS time mode instead of UTC. Default mode: Polled Legacy Compatibility: The @@Bj message was used in an identical manner in virtually all Motorola receivers. --- Graham == From didier at cox.net Tue Jul 7 14:45:02 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:45:02 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> Chuck, In France, Gas Pipe threads are tappered. However, I do not remember if they follow the Metric or British standard for size... Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:33 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > Hi Dave, > > That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it > is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard > the world over. > > There are some differences, that won't matter in your > application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This > is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered > pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been > all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done > "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > > is where I > > got the specification for the thread from. > > > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 14:45:21 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:45:21 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <6F86BDC369DB41DF9F1E5272B866765D@APOLLO> That is known over here as BSP (British Standard Pipe), or more pickily, BSPP (last P=Parallel) aka British Gas), there is also BSPT (T= Taper). I tried a BSP parallel 3/4" (also used for plumbing over here) but it doesn't (quite) fit. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 15:33 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Hi Dave, That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > is where I > got the specification for the thread from. > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 7 14:58:43 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:58:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt buy .. another ? In-Reply-To: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Is there another planned Thunderbolt group buy ? -pete From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 14:54:45 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <1152.12.6.201.234.1246978485.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I think Rigid Metal Electrical Conduit (RMC) uses similar threads to NPT, but are not tapered. I mean the thick stuff, not EMT. -John ========== > Hi Dave, > > That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known > as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. > > There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In > Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of > not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, > there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done > "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> is where I >> got >> the specification for the thread from. >> >> Pipe has O.D. of 1". >> >> Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jul 7 14:56:25 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:56:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090707.085625.-1760073140.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <4A533C36.1030608 at rubidium.dyndns.org> Magnus Danielson writes: : There are (at least) three interpretations of when leap-seconds may be : inserted: : 1) At the end of every month. This is the ITU standard. It says that leap seconds can be inserted at the end of each month. Almost no gear allows this, and the gear that does doesn't always do it in a sane way. : 2) At the end of every quarter. This is also ITU standard. These are the secondary times. They have never been used. : 3) At the end of every half-year. These are the primary times. : GPS is operated under the assumption that case 3 holds. Why is this the case? The GPS data just tells you which week the next leap second will happen, as well as the last time a leap second happened. How is it the case that you can say that 3 holds? : There exist equipment assuming that case 2 holds. : The actual definition allows for case 1, making case 3 the primary : preference and case 2 the secondary preference. Yes. : Lovely mess, isn't it? Leap seconds are evil and must die. For such a simple thing, there's so much complication that getting leap seconds right can be rather hard. At least there's no leap second this December... : Anyway, if I don't recall it incorrectly (OK lazy to check), the GPS : signal actually indicate WHEN then upcomming leap second will occur. : This reduces to a up-comming leap second flag out of the GPS OEM board : which can trigger pre-maturely execution of leap-second algorithm on the : timing receiver, as we have seen in the Z3801A for instance. You are correct. There's an indication when the next leap second will happen. The Z3801A uses this to turn on a simple 'leap second pending' which causes a leap second to happen at the next leap second opportunity rather than at the week published. The GPS operators turn on next leap second about 4 or 5 months early, which triggers the bug. Warner From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 15:06:42 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:06:42 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> Message-ID: <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> Hi Didier, Gas pipe, as far as I know is always tapered. In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, etc... They use "gas pipe" for hot water heating systems... only they use straight threads, with a jamb nut to squash an O-ring up against the fixture. The nut has a bevel that presses the O-ring into the pipe's threads, and affects a semi-seal. It is a one time affair, and in my experience lasts about two heating seasons before it starts dripping. I guess a benefit is it keeps the room humidity up in the winter... sigh! -Chuck Harris Didier Juges wrote: > Chuck, > > In France, Gas Pipe threads are tappered. However, I do not remember if they > follow the Metric or British standard for size... > > Didier > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:33 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it >> is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard >> the world over. >> >> There are some differences, that won't matter in your >> application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This >> is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered >> pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been >> all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done >> "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> >> is where I >>> got the specification for the thread from. >>> >>> Pipe has O.D. of 1". >>> >>> Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, >> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 16:38:43 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:38:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> Message-ID: <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Chuck, Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an O-ring. Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? -- Bj?rn > Hi Didier, > > Gas pipe, as far as I know is always tapered. > > In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, etc... They use "gas pipe" > for hot water heating systems... only they use straight threads, > with a jamb nut to squash an O-ring up against the fixture. > The nut has a bevel that presses the O-ring into the pipe's threads, > and affects a semi-seal. It is a one time affair, and in my > experience lasts about two heating seasons before it starts > dripping. I guess a benefit is it keeps the room humidity up in the > winter... sigh! > > -Chuck Harris From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 17:42:49 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:42:49 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. regards Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100, David C. Partridge wrote: >I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > is where I got >the specification for the thread from. >Pipe has O.D. of 1". >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Chuck Harris >Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >Ok, I will try this from a different angle. >1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large >machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have >a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. >US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 >inch" in any dimension, however. >It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. >So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? >-Chuck Harris >David C. Partridge wrote: >> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >>> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >>> don't have a die stock)? >>> >>> Thanks >>> David Partridge >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 17:53:55 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. --------------- As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also regularly listed on Ebay. However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. regards Nigel GM8PZR From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 17:56:51 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:56:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to fill the Trimble Bullet III into the list of antennas with this thread. Here are some mounting adapters shown: http://www.dpie.com/gps/bullet3.html Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100, David C. Partridge wrote: >I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > is where I got >the specification for the thread from. >Pipe has O.D. of 1". >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Chuck Harris >Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >Ok, I will try this from a different angle. >1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large >machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have >a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. >US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 >inch" in any dimension, however. >It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. >So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? >-Chuck Harris >David C. Partridge wrote: >> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >>> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >>> don't have a die stock)? >>> >>> Thanks >>> David Partridge From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 18:10:46 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:10:46 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As it would appear to an expensive option to purchase the appropriate dies "over here", and as the pipe is soft alloy, I've just reduced its diameter a bit so it's an tight push fit in the antenna base (for now) - though still hoping to find a good solution with spending lots of dosh! Thanks to all Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com Sent: 07 July 2009 18:54 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. --------------- As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also regularly listed on Ebay. However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. regards Nigel GM8PZR _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 18:10:59 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:10:59 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nigel and the group, this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. regards Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: >I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from >Raytheon, >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, >HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. >So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully >cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not >compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. >If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. >I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. >--------------- >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also >regularly listed on Ebay. > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that >could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. > >regards > >Nigel >GM8PZR >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 44792 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 18:33:31 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:33:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55889.87.227.52.225.1246991611.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi, Not Euro-local, but you can find different adapters in Antcoms product range. http://www.antcom.com/products/catalogs.html http://www.antcom.com/documents/catalogs/PeripheralAntennaProducts2.pdf The Trimble Acutime/Palisade antennas also use this thread. -- Bj?rn > In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: > > I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from > Raytheon, > Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, > HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. > So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully > cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not > compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical > Europe. > If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. > I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. > > > --------------- > As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for > GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine > environment. > > A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from > expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also > regularly listed on Ebay. > > However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a > collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's > needs. > They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat > surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps > a > trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else > that > could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 18:35:57 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:35:57 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses > heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an > O-ring. > > Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? Hi Bjorn, In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and compression fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. The US cast iron radiators all use tapered pipe thread, fin coil is almost always soldered copper, and the steel radiators from Sweden/Denmark/Norway/Switzerland, and Italy, all have straight pipe thread, and use a Jamb nut with an O-ring. Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. I have also run into this system in shut-off valves, manifolds, flow control valves, air eliminators, ... all coming from Europe. Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? -Chuck Harris From w9ddd at tapr.org Tue Jul 7 18:55:41 2009 From: w9ddd at tapr.org (John Koster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:55:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt buy .. another ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: "Pete Lancashire" > To: time-nuts at febo.com > > Is there another planned Thunderbolt group buy ? > > -pete > Very close to an announcement. Just waiting to resolve one administrative issue and we'll be ready. -- 73, John, W9DDD From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 19:37:29 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:37:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <180713.72450.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> How about http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4721 Under $18 adjustable angle. or http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4720 $25 Not slip over the top of a pole but pretty universal. They are available in the UK from ships chandlers. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking > for as well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time,? > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon,? > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from? > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also? > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat? > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a? > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that? > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 20:06:10 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:06:10 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 19:14:01 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: Nigel and the group, this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. --------- Hi Arnold That looks ideal, and good quality too, but I suppose the problem with that and with my similar suggestion for a collar is that pipe sizes vary, so it will either need to be available in different sizes or adapters provided. I don't see any problem with that but it might start to get expensive for home use. When I finally get round to mounting my timing antennas outdoors, so far my little Motorola magnetic patches seem to see an awful lot of sky from indoors, if I can't find a similar adapter that fits I'll probably just use a standard mast clamp arrangement with a 90 degree bracket and fix one of the cheap plastic mounts to that. Not so neat, and a bit more wind resistance, but not too much hassle either:-) regards Nigel From rdarlington at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 20:10:35 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:10:35 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi guys, I'm using a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe with my Panasonic gps antenna on top. The weight and friction of the cable below it will pretty much prevent it from lifting off the pipe, probably even in a hurricane. I didn't even bother with silicone sealant because the threaded part overlaps by a good inch over the outside of the pipe. -Bob On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:06 PM, wrote: > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 19:14:01 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: > > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. > > > --------- > Hi Arnold > > That looks ideal, and good quality too, but I suppose the problem with > that and with my similar suggestion for a collar is that pipe sizes vary, > so > it will either need to be available in different sizes or adapters > provided. > I don't see any problem with that but it might start to get expensive for > home use. > > When I finally get round to mounting my timing antennas outdoors, so far my > little Motorola magnetic patches seem to see an awful lot of sky from > indoors, if I can't find a similar adapter that fits I'll probably just use > a > standard mast clamp arrangement with a 90 degree bracket and fix one of the > cheap plastic mounts to that. > > Not so neat, and a bit more wind resistance, but not too much hassle > either:-) > > regards > > Nigel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 20:13:39 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:13:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Photo attached Robert G8RPI --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking > for as well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time,? > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon,? > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from? > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also? > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat? > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a? > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that? > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4705.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 12691 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 20:13:58 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <659299.24810.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, I was curious that BSP did not fit. I just grabbed some hardware to try. A 3/4 BSP blank just fitted a Trimble pallisade but not the female end of a Shakespeare short mast. The trimble spec says 1-14TPI or 3/4NPT. It is looser on the shakespeare thread (1-14). I guess it has a thread cut for either and your antenna it 1-14 only. A 3/4-BSPT might fit but a marine mount might be best. I whish I still had access to the CNC lathe at my last employers. It would only take a few minutes to knock some up from 30mm hex bar! --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > As it would appear to an expensive > option to purchase the appropriate dies > "over here", and as the pipe is soft alloy, I've just > reduced its diameter a > bit so it's an tight push fit in the antenna base (for now) > - though still > hoping to find a good solution with spending lots of dosh! > > Thanks to all > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: 07 July 2009 18:54 > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > I have? the same problem with several GPS antennas, a > Quadrifilar from > Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, HP > 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an > adapter. > So this? thread is definitively a kind of standard. > The thread is fully > cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use conical > threads which are not > compatible.? Very difficult to find proper solution in > the metrical Europe. > If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I would > buy 4 units. > I did not check for? the correct naming of this thread > though. > > > --------------- > As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a > marine > environment. > > A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers > ranging from > expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, > they are also > regularly listed on Ebay. > > However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat > surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a > trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up > something else > that could do the job without the need for threading the > end of the pipe. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 20:31:37 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206.12.6.201.210.1246998697.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I just talked to these folks: http://www.sealconusa.com/strainrelief/adapter_ny/af_2516_bk.html They sell adapters of all kinds. The designation for conduit (electrical, w/o taper) threads (= 3/4" NPT) is PG-21. As I posted earlier, the tapered threads are used for plumbing, the straight threads are used for rigid electrical conduit. So what you want is an adapter from Male PG-21 to your choice. -John ============= From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 20:38:36 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:38:36 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 21:14:33 GMT Daylight Time, robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk writes: Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Now that is very nice, and at a nice price too, well worth making the effort to find a pipe to fit the adapter rather than vice versa:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 20:49:58 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! -John ============ From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 7 21:05:09 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:05:09 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <76e66aadfa9e8b96b1b8252fb3ffb66b.squirrel@petelancashire.com> or next month if DD-MM-YY. Or if refreshments are included celebrate both days ... -pete > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 21:08:45 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:08:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <346811.12910.qm@web27106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It's also on ebay (USA) for less! Searching ebay (UK) category Vehicle Parts & Accessories > Boats Parts & Accessories > Accessories for antenna. This brings up various options. Boat people seem to be charged a lot for some basic stuff! Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: > From: GandalfG8 at aol.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 9:38 PM > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 21:14:33 GMT Daylight > Time,? > robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk > writes: > > Try? Shakespeare? 4705 > http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 > 1" pipe? slip-over to 1"-14tpi > > > Now that is very nice, and at a nice price too, well worth > making the? > effort to find a pipe to fit the adapter rather than vice > versa:-) > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From pe1rks at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 7 21:30:49 2009 From: pe1rks at xs4all.nl (S. Nestra) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:30:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Yes! it will, Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. Stijn > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 21:38:52 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:38:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> Message-ID: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: >> Hi Chuck, >> >> Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses >> heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an >> O-ring. >> >> Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? > > Hi Bjorn, > > In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned > cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or > steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. Your description does not enlighten me... there are all sorts of radiators available here. > Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and > compression > fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. PEX tubing has been "certified", but Prisol tubing (ie soft bendable Cu with plastic "coating") is much more common here. Cu tube joints are made with "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring". > Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. > -Chuck Harris -- Bj?rn From dwilson at linkline.com Tue Jul 7 21:55:35 2009 From: dwilson at linkline.com (Doug Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:55:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Date Problem Message-ID: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> My units have all begun displaying the wrong date. A Symmetricom Field Sevice Bulletin describes the problem but does not have a solution. Does anyone in this group have the knowledge and experience to assist me in modifying the firmware to correct this problem. These are beautiful little rack mount receivers and I would like to fix them rather than relagate them to the junk pile. It needs the date fixed because I use the IRIG output to record on telemetry tapes. The URL for the Service Bulletin is http://www.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/ttm/fsb/098%2D50620%2D011.pdf I have a large electronic lab and could possibly assist in the investigation/fix. Doug Wilson Redlands, California From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 22:59:11 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:59:11 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Date Problem In-Reply-To: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> References: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> Message-ID: <4A53D33F.9080709@rubidium.dyndns.org> Doug Wilson wrote: > My units have all begun displaying the wrong date. A Symmetricom Field Sevice Bulletin describes the problem but does not have a solution. > Does anyone in this group have the knowledge and experience to assist me in modifying the firmware to correct this problem. These are beautiful little rack mount receivers and I would like to fix them > rather than relagate them to the junk pile. It needs the date fixed because I use the IRIG output to record on telemetry tapes. > The URL for the Service Bulletin is http://www.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/ttm/fsb/098%2D50620%2D011.pdf > I have a large electronic lab and could possibly assist in the investigation/fix. There should be firmware available, as hinted in the Service Bulletin. A few users have already been provided with firmware, but you need to contact Symmetricom. As for the actual fix, it is not that big modification, but that assumes you have the source and means to compile it. Symmetricom has all that. If you go back in time you will find an email-thread on this particular issue. Cheers, Magnus From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 23:07:52 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:07:52 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> Hi Bjorn, >> Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > >> Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than > enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to leak" quality > must be a US craftmanship problem. Nope! I'm the US craftsman using European plumbing parts, as instructed by the manufacturers. But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? -Chuck Harris From Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr Tue Jul 7 23:18:50 2009 From: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr (Jean-Louis Oneto) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:18:50 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trak 8810 GPS station (Rb GPSDO) Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for information about a GPSDO built by Trak Systems sometime around 1990 under the reference 8810 which include a Magnavox MX 4200 GPS unit and an Efratom Rubidium Oscillator FRS-C, 10 MHz, Part no. 814-100-1, S/N 1049, Date code 8649. I found the manual for the Efratom FRS oscillators, even if this part number doesn't fit the part numbering given in the manual. I have more problem with the GPS receiver. Till now I only found the NMEA proprietary sentences descriptions. I'm not sure if it will pass the GPS week rollover (aka y2k bug), since the unit was out broken since a long time. And I found strictly no information on the Trak 8810 itself. Every piece of information will be very welcome! Thanks in advance, Jean-Louis Oneto Grasse - France e-mail: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr From dwilson at linkline.com Tue Jul 7 23:38:51 2009 From: dwilson at linkline.com (Doug Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:38:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Manual Needed (PDF) Message-ID: <67D5DC31CD6E4565B364BE1A42C65DCD@xpmaster> Some time ago someone indicated that they had the manual in a file for this unit (Datum 9390-52054). If it is still around could you please email it to me (3MB) file size is O.K. Doug Wilson (dwilson at linkline.com) From Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr Wed Jul 8 00:07:07 2009 From: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr (Jean-Louis Oneto) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:07:07 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <76e66aadfa9e8b96b1b8252fb3ffb66b.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <2DF12E1DC8F14907B2A4DA32A3A52879@pcreopt> And if paying with timezones that can even be at least 48 celebrations... I'm not sure I will still be able to count the seconds after that! Jean-Louis Oneto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lancashire" To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trivia > or next month if DD-MM-YY. Or if refreshments are included > celebrate both days ... > > -pete > > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >> -John >> >> ============ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 8 00:20:12 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:20:12 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> S. Nestra wrote: > Yes! it will, > > Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. Cheers, Magnus > > Stijn > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >> -John >> >> ============ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From gwinn at raytheon.com Wed Jul 8 00:21:26 2009 From: gwinn at raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:21:26 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 07/07/2009 05:38:52 PM: > From: > > bg at lysator.liu.se > > To: > > "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" nuts at febo.com> > > Date: > > 07/07/2009 05:40 PM > > Subject: > > [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die > > Sent by: > > time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > > bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: > >> Hi Chuck, > >> > >> Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses > >> heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an > >> O-ring. > >> > >> Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? > > > > Hi Bjorn, > > > > In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned > > cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or > > steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. > > Your description does not enlighten me... there are all sorts > of radiators available here. > > > Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and > > compression > > fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. > > PEX tubing has been "certified", but Prisol tubing (ie soft bendable Cu > with plastic "coating") is much more common here. Cu tube joints are made > with "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring". > > > Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > > > Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than > enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to > leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One screws them together until they bottom. Joe Gwinn From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 8 00:43:43 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:43:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Conduit thread RE: OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Joseph M Gwinn > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:21 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Su > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - > straight threads are for mechanical connections only. For > connections that must also contain fluids under pressure, one > uses taper threads such as the ubiquitous NPT. Over the > decades, I have lived in many houses, including my current > house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron > radiators, and I have never had to redo a radiator > connection. I've never had a leak, and most of these systems > were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there > is an installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe > he was an out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical > conduit for pipe. > Rigid conduit uses tapered NPT threads. NEC 344.28 Reaming and Threading. All cut ends shall be reamed or otherwise finished to remove rough edges. Where conduit is threaded in the field, a standard cutting die with a 1 in 16 taper (3/4 in taper per foot) shall be used. BUT, IMC (a thinner wall conduit) is tapered at 3/8"/ft (1 in 32, half the taper of standard heavy wall rigid conduit) because the wall is about half the thickness). And, of course, since the female thread in the fitting is almost certainly tapered at the 1 in 16, the half taper IMC will thread in and tighten up with a bit less thread engagement. Straight threads are found on bolts, and on the threaded part of compression fittings (the kind with a crushable ferrule around the tube), and on some gas fittings (where there's an O-ring or other gasket for sealing). I'm not sure if a gas fitting like a CGA-580 (which has a NGO-RH thread) is tapered, even without a gasket. Actually, there's a bewildering variety of standard threads, tapered and not. Some tapered threads are designed to seal without a filler, some with. Not only that but the actual thread shape is different (55 vs 60 degrees). Fortunately, for the average hacker, if it's close, and the metal is malleable,.... > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic > systems, not domestic water or heating systems, and the > mating parts have correctly designed pockets to hold the > O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One screws them > together until they bottom. > > Joe Gwinn > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 8 00:48:06 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <1890.12.6.201.122.1247014086.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I agree with you, but would note that iron NPT threaded joints that leak a bit, will often self seal due to rust, given time. -John ============= > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads > are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also > contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the > ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including > my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, > and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a > leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an > installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an > out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. > > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not > domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly > designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One > screws them together until they bottom. > > Joe Gwinn > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 02:36:57 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:36:57 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US isn't it? Jim 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > S. Nestra wrote: > >> Yes! it will, >> >> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. >> > > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > >> Stijn >> >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >>> >>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >>> >>> -John >>> >>> ============ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 02:59:10 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:59:10 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well :) 73, Steve 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. > > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US isn't > it? > > Jim > > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > >> S. Nestra wrote: >> >>> Yes! it will, >>> >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. >>> >> >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> >> >>> Stijn >>> >>> ?AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ?ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >>>> >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >>>> >>>> -John >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 8 04:14:02 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:14:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A541D0A.8070703@erols.com> Joseph M Gwinn wrote: > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads > are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also > contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the > ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including > my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, > and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a > leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an > installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an > out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. Sorry, but the European radiators, manifolds, fittings and valves that are coming into the US for use in hydronic heating systems are all straight pipe thread with O-rings and jamb nuts, and that is the reason for my mentioning of that fact. They are exactly as I described them. > > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not > domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly > designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One > screws them together until they bottom. I understand that, tell that to the European heating manufacturers. Time to get back to time. -Chuck Harris From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 08:10:53 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:10:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77AEA020D3A14970A869EDDC977F736D@APOLLO> Perfect - now to find one! D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: 07 July 2009 21:14 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Photo attached Robert G8RPI --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as > well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time, > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon, > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Jul 8 08:22:32 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 04:22:32 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 08/07/2009 00:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, cfharris at erols.com writes: But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? ------------------- I think that's because you're talking about different things. When Bjorn comments... "Cu tube joints are madewith "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring"....... He's referring to a standard compression fitting, with the brass or copper "squeeze ring", more usually called an olive or compression ring, having tapered ends and being compressed around and into the copper pipe surface as the nut is tightened. Other than soldered joints, which are also still used, this is the standard fitting here for gas or water in domestic installations. When fitted properly, and they're very easily fitted, these shouldn't leak at all. If they have a downside it's that same thing that makes them work so well to start with, the ring bedding itself into the outer of the copper pipe, especially as there can be a tendency to overtighten despite warnings to the contrary. For the ring to be fully effective it needs to be installed over a "fresh" section of pipe. When working on existing systems, particularly those that have been installed for some time, it may be necessary to replace lengths of pipe, or at least cut back and insert a fresh short length in order to remove ends where the fittings have been previously installed I have also never seen an O-ring with jamb nut in a domestic heating system and don't think steel pipe has been used here in regular domestic heating systems since "central heating" took off in the 1960s/70s. Steel pipe, often it seems referred to as "gas barrel" even if not being used for gas, is still common in industrial situations but copper is the norm for gas and water in domestic situations with pipe sizes varying to suit flow and equipment fittings. Domestic radiator type water heating systems traditionally make use of 25mm and 15mm copper pipe but systems using plastic sheathed 10mm copper pipe are becoming more common, with the sheath being cut back to allow entry into the fitting.. As compression fittings are very much the norm here I'm surprised that you don't seem to have encountered them in the US. Is it possible that what is being supplied to the US from Europe is more dictated by US plumbing practices and regulations than by what we'd normally prefer to use ourselves?:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR From rk at timing-consultants.com Wed Jul 8 08:58:45 2009 From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:58:45 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com><1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com><56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> Message-ID: <41072E99A9CE4D9B9676D79D870B3349@robinHP> FWIW they use PTFE tape on non-soldered joints over here in UK. Rob Kimberley -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 08 July 2009 00:08 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die Hi Bjorn, >> Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > >> Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more > than enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to > leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. Nope! I'm the US craftsman using European plumbing parts, as instructed by the manufacturers. But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? -Chuck Harris _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 8 09:18:15 2009 From: james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk (James R Miller) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:18:15 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. Perhaps 09-09-09 09:09:09 is non-divisive ... With best wishes. -- ========================================================================== James R Miller WWW/PGP: http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/ Cambridge, England Stardate: 2009 Jul 08 [Wed] 0916 utc ========================================================================== From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 09:36:33 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:36:33 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well I think more countries drive on the right than left, so we can't complain. On the other hand they share the imperial measuring system only with Burma and Liberia. Good company there... 2009/7/8 Steve Rooke > Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well > :) > > 73, > Steve > > 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. > > > > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US > isn't > > it? > > > > Jim > > > > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > > > >> S. Nestra wrote: > >> > >>> Yes! it will, > >>> > >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 > 07-08-09. > >>> > >> > >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Magnus > >> > >> > >> > >>> Stijn > >>> > >>> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS > YEAR, > >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > >>>> > >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > >>>> > >>>> -John > >>>> > >>>> ============ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > A man with one clock knows what time it is; > A man with two clocks is never quite sure. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From marc at msys.ch Wed Jul 8 09:38:02 2009 From: marc at msys.ch (Marc Balmer) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:38:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS > YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: 04:05:06 07.08.09 (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) let's not forget about september 2010: 05:06:07 08.09.10 and of course october 2011: 06:07:08 09.10.11 and november 2012: 07:08:09 10.11.12 see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much more funny times/dates ;) - Marc > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From marc at msys.ch Wed Jul 8 09:39:41 2009 From: marc at msys.ch (Marc Balmer) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:39:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1DC818A0-7A31-435C-9D28-86E42F682605@msys.ch> > Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as > well :) actually they drive on the right side, even if that's not the right side. 0x49, Marc HB9SSB From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 10:30:45 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:30:45 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907080330n6302e54bud2cdddc1433a1d3@mail.gmail.com> But you get short measured there. Go in a bar and ask for a pint and you only get 16oz, 4 short of a real pint :) And are they all left-handed there as otherwise how do you defend yourself while passing on the right :) 73, Steve 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > Well I think more countries drive on the right than left, so we can't > complain. > > On the other hand they share the imperial measuring system only with Burma > and Liberia. > > Good company there... > > > 2009/7/8 Steve Rooke > >> Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well >> :) >> >> 73, >> Steve >> >> 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : >> > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. >> > >> > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US >> isn't >> > it? >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson >> > >> >> S. Nestra wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes! it will, >> >>> >> >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 >> 07-08-09. >> >>> >> >> >> >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Stijn >> >>> >> >>> ?AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ?ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS >> YEAR, >> >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >>>> >> >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >>>> >> >>>> -John >> >>>> >> >>>> ============ >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >>>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >> To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW >> A man with one clock knows what time it is; >> A man with two clocks is never quite sure. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 8 10:46:41 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:46:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A547911.1000902@rubidium.dyndns.org> Marc Balmer wrote: > > Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: > > 04:05:06 07.08.09 > > (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) > > let's not forget about september 2010: > > 05:06:07 08.09.10 > > and of course october 2011: > > 06:07:08 09.10.11 > > and november 2012: > > 07:08:09 10.11.12 > > see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much more > funny times/dates ;) Sane dates is YYYY-MM-DD as we use here... extends nicely with HH:MM:SS for time of day and ,SSSSSSSSSSS for all those extra digits needed. :) Cheers, Magnus From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 10:50:44 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:50:44 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon Message-ID: If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking that I should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? Thanks Dave From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 8 11:00:20 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 04:00:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A547C44.8070300@sonic.net> Marc Balmer wrote: > > Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS >> YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > > pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: > > 04:05:06 07.08.09 > > (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) > > let's not forget about september 2010: > > 05:06:07 08.09.10 > > and of course october 2011: > > 06:07:08 09.10.11 > > and november 2012: > > 07:08:09 10.11.12 > > see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much > more funny times/dates ;) > > - Marc > > The sanity of the scheme doesn't much change the ability to celebrate these trivia. In fact, the US scheme gives one extra day to celebrate per century. Your sane scheme can't do 09:10:11 12/13/14 but we can. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Jul 8 11:37:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:37:49 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> David C. Partridge wrote: > If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking that I > should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? > > Thanks > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > No, more like 10/(.66*3E8)= 10/2E8 = 50ns. Bruce From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 12:02:30 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:02:30 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon In-Reply-To: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> References: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <7C7A0B856816429188445059D63BAF3B@APOLLO> Doh! I got my sums upside down! Thanks for the sanity check. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: 08 July 2009 12:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon David C. Partridge wrote: > If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking > that I should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? > > Thanks > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > No, more like 10/(.66*3E8)= 10/2E8 = 50ns. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 13:46:07 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate Message-ID: <1231b6a80907080646w6d074db1tb8c8b821782a57a6@mail.gmail.com> Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP server and it reported "Number of Satellites Tracked 892"! Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since when has NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into space, it would be quite a log-jam up there :-) Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's something to do with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make it work and that is not supported any more. Anyone know if there is a firmware update for these devices so that it can work with SUN Java? 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 8 14:03:22 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A54A72A.6030904@erols.com> Hi Nigel, > He's referring to a standard compression fitting, with the brass or copper > "squeeze ring", more usually called an olive or compression ring, having > tapered ends and being compressed around and into the copper pipe surface as > the nut is tightened. > Other than soldered joints, which are also still used, this is the > standard fitting here for gas or water in domestic installations. > > When fitted properly, and they're very easily fitted, these shouldn't leak > at all. We use them here in the US, for small water fittings... such as refrigerator ice makers, and toilet tank fills. They work just fine. I always put a little non hardening pipe compound under the ring to prevent seepage that can occur on poorly made tubing that has mandrel marks left over from drawing the tubing... I never used to have to do that, but the Chinese and Mexican manufactured toilet fill tubes we get these days are awful. ... > I have also never seen an O-ring with jamb nut in a domestic heating > system and don't think steel pipe has been used here in regular domestic heating > systems since "central heating" took off in the 1960s/70s. Good! The UK must be using more sane methods. I haven't been talking about steel pipe, I have been talking of straight pipe thread on fittings, such as shut-off valves on radiators, and fittings on manifolds. > Steel pipe, often it seems referred to as "gas barrel" even if not being > used for gas, is still common in industrial situations but copper is the > norm for gas and water in domestic situations with pipe sizes varying to suit > flow and equipment fittings. Steel pipe is mandated for gas systems in many areas of the US. I am in one such area. It works fine, and is 100% reliable. Copper tubing is only used by propane installers, and they form their own codes. Compression fittings seem to be universally outlawed for gas, though. Formed flare fittings are the norm on copper gas tubing. ... > As compression fittings are very much the norm here I'm surprised that you > don't seem to have encountered them in the US. As I said earlier, I have encountered plenty compression fittings. They are not what I have been discussing. > Is it possible that what is being supplied to the US from Europe is more > dictated by US plumbing practices and regulations than by what we'd normally > prefer to use ourselves?:-) No, these are bog-standard parts ordered directly from the manufacturer's catalogs, and imported directly into the US. There was no US code interference in these transactions. The work was done as directed by the manufacturers. You see, I happened to think the Europeans are the masters of the universe when it comes to hydronic heat. It is rare to find hydronic heating in the US because our climate requires both heating and cooling in most areas, and it is much cheaper to install a single forced air system that does both the heating and cooling than it is to install two separate systems. In the US, hot water and steam heating systems are generally found only in houses that were built before central air conditioning was common. It's been fun, but we have probably taken a long enough vacation from time and frequency issues. I think it is past time to wind this subject down. -Chuck Harris From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 8 14:24:34 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 08:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> References: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090708.082434.915320532.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <189c907750%james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk> James R Miller writes: : : > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. : : Perhaps 09-09-09 09:09:09 is no