From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 01:27:17 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:27:17 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: The Google patent search is a very useful for studying GPS technology, precision oscillators, etc. It has been extremely reliable in the past, but today it started giving an error message after downloading only 5 patents. The error message is: Google Error Forbidden Your client does not have permission to get URL /patents/download/xxx.pdf?id=yyyy from this server. Rebooting and clearing the cookies didn't help. I have a static IP, so Google knows when I am trying to download a patent, and it gives this error message instead. There are a few other free patent services, but they require logging on, they aren't as easy to use, and they don't have the search options that google has. They also give larger pdf files than google. For example, here is US patent #6134065 by an old friend, Steve Brittenham, who used to work at HP Boisie: Service Bytes FreePatent : 80,794 Wikipatent : 543,465 Google : 66,014 The urls are http://www.freepatentsonline.com/ http://www.wikipatents.com/ Another service I often use is www.pat2pdf.org, but it seems to be offline today. So the best option is still google, but how to get around the static ip problem? The solution is a free proxy. There are many on the web - this one works fine: http://www.freeproxysite.com/ I used the "TOP 10 proxies by clicks", and selected German-Proxy.de From there, I went to http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search?hl=en&num=30 entered a patent number, and downloaded it with no problems. I don't know what is causing the problem at google, but this appears to solve it. If you run into this and find it starts giving problems again, just select another proxy and continue working! Mike From john at pcsupportsolutions.com Wed Jul 1 05:37:14 2009 From: john at pcsupportsolutions.com (John Allen) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 01:37:14 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] [time-nuts ]Plug and play GPSDOs was:(no subject) In-Reply-To: <332312.56078.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <4A4A12E7020000690001710C@gwmail.jr2.ox.ac.uk> <332312.56078.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This seller in CA is selling for $120 or less. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160331810845 John, K1AE 1.8 MHz - 10 GHz. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of dave powis Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:59 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] (no subject) Hi David, I don't know the Chinese ones, but I was lucky enough to get one of the TAPR offer TBolts - and it really was P&P - yes, I attached a PC and used the TBolt monitoring utility to confirm it was all working OK, but that was all. It now sits in my shack outputing 10MHz very nicely. 73, Dave ________________________________ From: David Hilton-Jones To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Tuesday, 30 June, 2009 1:28:07 PM Subject: [time-nuts] (no subject) I am not very much interested in how it is achieved, but wonder if a 10MHz oscillator locked to GPS is now available as "plug&play" rather than needing a lot of time/effort/building. I note the Thunderbolt units available from the Far East on ebay for~?80gbp. Are these really P&P - that is, just connect PSU and aerial and out comes 10MHz locked to GPS? Is it necessary to connect to a computer via the RS232 link, or is that just there if you want to fiddle and be clever? If so, then this may be preferrable to running my rubidium source continuously. What I am interested in is stability, not ultiamte accuracy. As always, sorry for the naivety of the question. Thanks David, G4YTL _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 06:17:51 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 23:17:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] FE-150A 5 MHz Message-ID: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator reference source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and also gives 1 pps. I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source and if it looks good, package it with a power supply. Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this thing again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit from the mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 "Time-Frequency Standard, Disiplined". The document that describes it is MIL-T-28816. There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want money. I also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are typical IEEE unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has MIL-T-28816 for free: http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The pages with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- figures 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't found a better source. I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the three pages of drawings. thanks, -Rex, KK6MK From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 1 06:24:38 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: <494315.7627.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Mike, Try http://ep.espacenet.com/ It's an offical european site that also searches US and World Patents. Very flexible search options and no registration required. You do have to type in the code from a graphic image if you want to download a full PDF. That is a small price to pay to keep the bots out. Robert G8RPI. --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Mike Monett wrote: > From: Mike Monett > Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:27 AM > ? The Google? patent? > search? > is???a???very? > useful? for? studying GPS > ? technology, precision? > oscillators,???etc.???It? > has? been extremely > ? reliable in? the past, but today it started > giving an? error message > ? after downloading only 5 patents. The error message > is: > > ? Google Error > > ? Forbidden Your client does not have permission to > get URL > > ? /patents/download/xxx.pdf?id=yyyy from this server. > > ? Rebooting and clearing the cookies didn't help. I > have a? static IP, > ? so Google knows when I am trying to download a > patent, and? it gives > ? this error message instead. > > ? There are a few other free patent services, but they > require logging > ? on, they? aren't? as? easy to use, > and they? don't? have? the search > ? options that? google? has.? They > also? give? larger? pdf? files than > ? google. For? example, here is US patent > #6134065 by? an? old friend, > ? Steve Brittenham, who used to work at HP Boisie: > > ? Service? ? ? Bytes > > ? FreePatent : 80,794 > ? Wikipatent : 543,465 > ? Google? ???: 66,014 > > ? The urls are > > ? http://www.freepatentsonline.com/ > ? http://www.wikipatents.com/ > > ? Another service? I often use is > www.pat2pdf.org, but it seems? to be > ? offline today. > > ? So the best option is still google, but how to get > around the static > ? ip problem? > > ? The solution? is a free proxy. There are many > on the web -? this one > ? works fine: > > ? http://www.freeproxysite.com/ > > ? I used the "TOP 10 proxies by clicks", and selected > German-Proxy.de > > ? From there, I went to > > ? http://www.google.com/advanced_patent_search?hl=en&num=30 > > ? entered a patent number, and downloaded it with no > problems. > > ? I don't know what is causing the problem at google, > but this appears > ? to solve it. If you run into this and find it starts > giving problems > ? again, just select another proxy and continue > working! > ? > ? Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 1 12:21:24 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 14:21:24 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] DM specs Message-ID: <4A4B54C4.5010806@rubidium.dyndns.org> Fellow Time-nuts, I have an DM C146-10-1 element and would wish to get hold of the specs for it. If you have those and for that matter other DM elements, I'd be happy to get them. DM was swamped into EDO and I can't find them on their site. Your assistance would be apprechiated. Cheers, Magnus From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 13:55:36 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken References: Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) >From: Robert Atkinson >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken >Hi Mike, > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/ It's an offical european site that > also searches US and World Patents. Very flexible search options > and no registration required. You do have to type in the code from > a graphic image if you want to download a full PDF. That is a > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > Robert G8RPI. Hi Robert, Thanks very much for the reply and the link. That looks like a useful site, especially for European and Japanese patents. How do you "type in the code from a graphic image"? I guess you mean to enter a captcha, but couldn't see any box to enter a code. It found US6134065 with no problem, and all I had to do was click on the Acrobat symbol to download the file. But only shows the text on the first page. The rest are blank. I'm running Win98, which uses old versions of Acrobat and Foxit. Is this a version problem, or is there a way to get the rest of the document? I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have WinXP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works great. But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen update is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I tried VB 2.1, but it was only slightly faster. I bought a new graphics card, but it was only marginally faster. It also overwhelmed the cooling in the computer. The case got so hot I couldn't hold my hand on it. I can't upgrade the motherboard since I need the parallel and serial IO ports, but they don't exist on newer systems. I'll try to get Win98 running in QEMU today, and see if that helps the slow display problem. If so, I'll transfer all my files over to the new box, and that should end these problems with old, down-level versions of Acrobat and browsers. The plan is to run Win98 as usual, and if there is a problem, bounce over to WinXP. If anyone has other suggestions to speed up the DOS display in XP, I'd be very happy to hear them. Thanks, Mike From brooke at pacific.net Wed Jul 1 15:58:26 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 08:58:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Hi Rex: Go to: http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. On the next page are three documents * Inactivation * Rev A * Base Document just click on the Adobe icon to get them. More on my Manuals web page: http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Rex wrote: > Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator reference > source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. > > It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and > also gives 1 pps. > > I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source and > if it looks good, package it with a power supply. > > Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this thing > again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit from the > mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 "Time-Frequency Standard, > Disiplined". The document that describes it is MIL-T-28816. > > There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want money. I > also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are typical IEEE > unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has MIL-T-28816 for > free: > http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ > > Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The pages > with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- figures > 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't found a > better source. > > I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or > some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the > three pages of drawings. > > thanks, > -Rex, KK6MK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 1 17:30:19 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 17:30:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I don't think its a version problem. When you have the patent displayed (View original document tab) you only see one page at a time. see http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=2004036036A1&KC=A1 (one of mine ;-) There is a bar above the view window with a "save full document" option. If you click on this it will ask you to decode a captcha before downloading the PDF. Regards, Robert Akinson --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Mike Monett wrote: > From: Mike Monett > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Wednesday, 1 July, 2009, 2:55 PM > ? >Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 > 06:24:38 +0000 (GMT) > ? >From: Robert Atkinson > ? >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is > Broken > > ? >Hi Mike, > > ? > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/? It's an > offical? european? site that > ? > also searches? US and World Patents. Very > flexible? search options > ? > and no registration required. You do have to > type in the code from > ? > a graphic? image? if you want to > download a full? PDF.? That? is a > ? > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > > ? > Robert G8RPI. > > ? Hi Robert, > > ? Thanks very? much? for? the reply and > the link.? That? looks? like a > ? useful site, especially for European and Japanese > patents. > > ? How do you "type in the code from a graphic image"? > I guess you mean > ? to enter a captcha, but couldn't see any box to > enter a code. > > ? It found US6134065 with no problem, and all I had to > do was click on > ? the Acrobat symbol to download the file. But only > shows the? text on > ? the first page. The rest are blank. > > ? I'm running Win98, which uses old versions of > Acrobat and? Foxit. Is > ? this a? version? problem, or is there a > way to get the? rest? of the > ? document? > > ? I'm hoping? a lot of these problems will soon > go away. I? have WinXP > ? SP3 running? in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, > and? it? works great. > ? But it? doesn't like running my old DOS > programs. The? screen update > ? is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. > I tried? VB 2.1, > ? but it was only slightly faster. > > ? I bought a new graphics card, but it was only > marginally? faster. It > ? also overwhelmed the cooling in the computer. The > case got so? hot I > ? couldn't hold my hand on it. I can't upgrade the > motherboard since I > ? need the parallel and serial IO ports, but they > don't exist on newer > ? systems. > > ? I'll try? to get Win98 running in QEMU today, > and see if? that helps > ? the slow display problem. If so, I'll transfer all > my files? over to > ? the new box, and that should end these problems with > old, down-level > ? versions of Acrobat and browsers. The plan is to run > Win98 as usual, > ? and if there is a problem, bounce over to WinXP. > > ? If anyone? has other suggestions to speed up > the DOS display? in XP, > ? I'd be very happy to hear them. > > ? Thanks, > > ? Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 1 17:49:32 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 10:49:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken In-Reply-To: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <937593.56345.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: http://www.uspto.gov has a pretty good search engine for US patents (with images, if you load the AlternaTiff plugin) > > ? > Try http://ep.espacenet.com/? It's an offical? european? > site that > > ? > also searches? US and World Patents. Very flexible? > search options > > ? > and no registration required. You do have to type in > the code from > > ? > a graphic? image? if you want to > > download a full? PDF.? That? is a > > ? > small price to pay to keep the bots out. > > > > ? > Robert G8RPI. > > > > ? Hi Robert, > > From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 18:34:37 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:34:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A4BAC3D.6090503@sonic.net> Thanks Brooke, I thought there should be a way to get to unclassified specs directly, but didn't find it myself. Great info. -Rex Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Rex: > > Go to: > http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ > "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal > specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" > and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". > > On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. > On the next page are three documents > * Inactivation > * Rev A > * Base Document > just click on the Adobe icon to get them. > > More on my Manuals web page: > http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Rex wrote: > >> Back on Jun 11, 2007 I posted a question about an oscillator >> reference source I obtained. I didn't get much help then. >> >> It is basically a quality 5 MHz OCXO in a unit that can be locked and >> also gives 1 pps. >> >> I've been thinking I should check it out relative to my GPS source >> and if it looks good, package it with a power supply. >> >> Last night, I (strangely) had a dream that I should google on this >> thing again. This time I leaned more. It is part of a US Navy unit >> from the mid 80's to early 90's. The Unit is AN/URQ-23 >> "Time-Frequency Standard, Disiplined". The document that describes it >> is MIL-T-28816. >> >> There are lots of sources for that doc on the web but most want >> money. I also found some IEEE papers that reference it, but are >> typical IEEE unobtanium for most of us. I did find one place that has >> MIL-T-28816 for free: >> http://www.tpub.com/content/MIL-SPEC/MIL-T/MIL-T-28816/ >> >> Mostly that was great, but the document is a series of jpgs. The >> pages with text are fine, but three pages with drawings (6, 7, 8 -- >> figures 1-3) are not high enough resolution to be helpful. I haven't >> found a better source. >> >> I am hoping someone on the list may have better search techniques or >> some other access to MIL-T-28816 to help me get legible copies of the >> three pages of drawings. >> >> thanks, >> -Rex, KK6MK >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 1 18:57:30 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 11:57:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Mil Spec Source (was) FE-150A 5 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> References: <4A4AFF8F.2040803@sonic.net> <4A4B87A2.1010904@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A4BB19A.3010507@sonic.net> I went to the assist site and downloaded the pdf version of the document. Unfortunately the three figure pages are the same low resolution scans. Oh well. I already know what it looks like and the rest of the document tells me about everthing I wanted to know about the 5 MHz reference. -Rex Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Rex: > > Go to: > http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/ > "ASSIST-Quick Search provides direct access to Defense and Federal > specifications and standards available in the official DoD repository" > and enter MIL-T-28816 into the Document ID field and press "SUBMIT". > > On the next page click on the spec or Acrobat icon. > On the next page are three documents > * Inactivation > * Rev A > * Base Document > just click on the Adobe icon to get them. > > More on my Manuals web page: > http://www.prc68.com/I/Man.shtml#FSCS > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Wed Jul 1 20:05:07 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 17:05:07 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: > Hi, I don't think its a version problem. When you have the patent > displayed (View original document tab) you only see one page at a > time. see > http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?FT=D&date=20040226&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP&CC=US&NR=2004036036A1&KC=A1 > (one of mine ;-) > There is a bar above the view window with a "save full document" > option. If you click on this it will ask you to decode a captcha > before downloading the PDF. > Regards, > Robert Akinson Thanks, I see what you mean now. I didn't notice that link the first time. It works great! That is an interesting patent application. It was in 2004 - I wonder why it hasn't issued yet. Looks like google patents is back online. I must have caught them as they were switching over to captchas. The site looks and works different now, and they require decoding the captcha before downloading. I guess that's OK, since it still is the best site online for US patents. But it means I can no longer link to the pdf file and convert it directly to DjVu. This OCR's the file and makes it text-searchable. The size drops considerably, and the DjVu reader is much faster than any pdf reader I've used. It is often worth the effort for large pdf's or ones you need to study a great deal. Now I have to download the file from google, then upload it to DjVu. This takes time, but the conversion takes much longer, so I guess it doesn't matter. If you'd like to try DjVu, you can start here: http://any2djvu.djvuzone.org/ulinit.php?submit.x=81&submit.y=30 If you don't have a viewer, you can get a free viewer at http://windjview.sourceforge.net/ Thanks, Mike From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Jul 2 13:51:31 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:51:31 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> Fellow time-nuts, Magnus Danielson wrote: > Fellow time-nuts, > > If you recall, when we hit GPS week 1524 (1024 + 500) we had issues with > a few receivers that didn't handle their biased GPS week wrapping > correctly. Then the arbitrary constant was 500. Now on Sunday the > aribtrary constant of 512 occurs as we enter GPS week 1536 (1024 + 512), > as calculated here: > http://csrc.ucsd.edu/scripts/convertDate.cgi?time=1536+0 > > If you see any node having problem, it would be nice to know. > > Hopefully no node fails. Unfortunatly I have heard a few reports of failures, one which I can't disclose the details of right now, but replacing GPS equipment solve the issue. The other was offset by a week, when Vaisala weather equipment was hit. Vaisala has provided the information in a nice webpage: http://www.vaisala.com/weather/products/gpswindfindingstatus.html One of their customers, Esrange (located in northen Sweden) has to stop scheduled rocket launches as they where not getting the wind data they needed. Vaisala seems to take this very serious as I am pleased to see on their webpage. It took less of a minute of Google time to find that page. The end result is that there is now a number of software/firmware issues which can hit a GPS receiver. Every once in a while they do hit systems. When they do, they can have rather large impact on system performance and limit operations (we have seen national total failure). This is the awareness I want to spread. Cheers, Magnus From sillebob at mchsi.com Thu Jul 2 21:51:18 2009 From: sillebob at mchsi.com (Bob Ellis) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:51:18 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore Message-ID: <070220092151.24707.4A4D2BD6000140C400006083223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF0D010D0A0404079C@mchsi.com> After an absence of several years I am back on the list. I am wondering how many are using the M12+T Oncore GPS in their GPSDO or whatever? More specifically how many would use the M12+T if there was an adapter to power the GPS and translate the signals to RS-232 levels? I have been selling an adapter for the UT+ Oncores on eBay for a while now but I'm thinking of making a board design for the newer GPS. Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. This could be an assembled board or a kit. If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features would be desirable. I have this breadboarded with through-hole components now and I am about ready to do a board layout. I would like some feedback to know if this idea is worthwhile or not. Bob From didier at cox.net Thu Jul 2 22:13:28 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:13:28 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bingo :) > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:47 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control > > > In a message dated 28/06/2009 19:54:05 GMT Daylight Time, > rexa at sonic.net > writes: > > No need to upload. You should have looked first. Both > information repositories are already there. > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=05)_GPS_Timing/Z3801 > > I thought this is the kind of thing Didier might have > already collected. > > > > ---------------- > And not only that, but from the identical structure I'd say > it's almost 100% guaranteed that they're my files.......... > Whoops:-) > > I did make them available once before and it's even quite > possible, prior to my having problems, that I could have > uploaded them myself and forgotten about it, the remaining > braincell does struggle a bit with trivia these days! > > Oh well, I obviously wasn't the only one not aware. > There's been over 30 downloads from my rapidshare link so I > still consider it worth the effort. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From swl at freeode.co.uk Thu Jul 2 22:20:05 2009 From: swl at freeode.co.uk (John Murphy) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 23:20:05 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090702232005.44feeae9@asus> On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300, Mike Monett wrote: > I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have WinXP > SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works great. > But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen update > is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I tried VB 2.1, > but it was only slightly faster. Have you tried any of the Linux DOS emulators? I find DOSBox particularly useful for the odd DOS programs I still use. http://www.dosbox.com/ -- John. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 2 23:41:40 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:41:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore In-Reply-To: Message from "Bob Ellis" of "Thu, 02 Jul 2009 21:51:18 -0000." <070220092151.24707.4A4D2BD6000140C400006083223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF0D010D0A0404079C@mchsi.com> Message-ID: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip > for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate > power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. > This could be an assembled board or a kit. > If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features > would be desirable. How wide is the PPS? If it's tiny (10 microseconds) some serial port setups won't catch it. If so, a one-shot pulse stretcher would be handy. Does the PPS signal stop ticking when it runs out of satellites? If so, I think you can use the other one-shot in the package so that the LED is on when the PPS is ticking and blinks when the PPS is off. and is off if there is no power). -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 00:01:02 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:01:02 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] M12+T Oncore In-Reply-To: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090702234141.CB1FFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A4D4A3E.50402@xtra.co.nz> A monostable is not required as the PPS pulse width is 200millisec wide. The PPS pulse can either stop when the timing error is too high/too few satellites etc., or it can be configured to continuously output. Since the M12+T can be configured for either a 100Hz output or a 1PPS output using a monostable adds unnecessary complication. If the buffered PPS output is intended to drive 50 ohms a driver that has a clean output that doesn't produce aberrations of 20% or so due to ground bounce would be nice. Bruce Hal Murray wrote: >> Specifically it would provide regulated 5 and 3 volts, a MAX3232 chip >> for level translation, a buffered 1PPS output, and LEDs to indicate >> power and 1PPS heartbeat. Some or all the components would be SMDs. >> This could be an assembled board or a kit. >> > > >> If this looks promising, I would be interested in what other features >> would be desirable. >> > > How wide is the PPS? If it's tiny (10 microseconds) some serial port setups > won't catch it. If so, a one-shot pulse stretcher would be handy. > > Does the PPS signal stop ticking when it runs out of satellites? If so, I > think you can use the other one-shot in the package so that the LED is on > when the PPS is ticking and blinks when the PPS is off. and is off if there > is no power). > > > > From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Jul 3 07:42:04 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:42:04 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control Message-ID: ROFL:-) In a message dated 02/07/2009 23:14:28 GMT Daylight Time, didier at cox.net writes: Bingo :) > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 2:47 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Z3801A PSU and Outer Oven Control > > > In a message dated 28/06/2009 19:54:05 GMT Daylight Time, > rexa at sonic.net > writes: > > No need to upload. You should have looked first. Both > information repositories are already there. > > http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl?dir=05)_GPS_Timing/Z3801 > > I thought this is the kind of thing Didier might have > already collected. > > > > ---------------- > And not only that, but from the identical structure I'd say > it's almost 100% guaranteed that they're my files.......... > Whoops:-) > > I did make them available once before and it's even quite > possible, prior to my having problems, that I could have > uploaded them myself and forgotten about it, the remaining > braincell does struggle a bit with trivia these days! > > Oh well, I obviously wasn't the only one not aware. > There's been over 30 downloads from my rapidshare link so I > still consider it worth the effort. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jltran at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 3 13:12:58 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 08:12:58 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A1F2876.3080408@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit and the insides if anyone is interested. I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage to the Oscillator Board. Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator Board. I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. Thanks for all the suggestions and help. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Joe Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by. In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair of toroids. Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this is probably impractical. Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 85-50 Schematic 2.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 77187 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Brucekareen at aol.com Fri Jul 3 13:50:00 2009 From: Brucekareen at aol.com (Brucekareen at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:50:00 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Message-ID: Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) From frledda at verizon.net Fri Jul 3 13:59:25 2009 From: frledda at verizon.net (Francesco Ledda) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 08:59:25 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: Message-ID: you could use remote desktop.... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Brucekareen at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:50 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rdarlington at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 15:26:12 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 09:26:12 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pretty much any Bluetooth serial adapter should do it. Running a cable would be cheaper though. http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php http://www.aircable.net/serial.html -Bob On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 7:50 AM, wrote: > Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed > from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it > could be made to work. > > Bruce Hunter > **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place > where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Fri Jul 3 15:27:31 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:27:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49974.87.227.52.225.1246634851.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Google for "bluetooth serial adapter" -- Bj?rn > you could use remote desktop.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be > accessed > from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it > could be made to work. > > Bruce Hunter From bg at lysator.liu.se Fri Jul 3 15:28:19 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:28:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50003.87.227.52.225.1246634899.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> I was to slow... ;-) > Pretty much any Bluetooth serial adapter should do it. Running a cable > would be cheaper though. > > http://www.iogear.com/product/GBS301/ > http://www.rovingnetworks.com/firefly.php > http://www.aircable.net/serial.html > > -Bob > From joegwinn at comcast.net Fri Jul 3 15:57:01 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 11:57:01 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 (Cutting ferrite cores) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 1:13 PM +0000 7/3/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >[snip] >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths >Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > >Joe [Trantham] > >Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a >small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current is to >be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more difficult >as such toroids are difficult to come by. In principle one can construct >ones own by cutting and grinding a pair of toroids. Unless one has access to >diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this is probably impractical. Actually, at least in the US it's easy to get such blades from lapidary shops for less than US $10. Here's one: The traditional approach is to hold the oddly shaped object to be cut in pitch. By lapidary standards, ferrites are pretty soft, and so should cut quite quickly. Joe Gwinn From time-nuts at kasperkp.dk Fri Jul 3 19:30:34 2009 From: time-nuts at kasperkp.dk (Kasper Pedersen) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:30:34 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Magnus Danielson wrote: > > Unfortunatly I have heard a few reports of failures, one which I can't > disclose the details of right now, but replacing GPS equipment solve > the issue. > I didn't think this would hit me, and I don't know if it's related, but: I have (had) 2 Garmin GPS-18x fw 3.00 on the windowsill, one driving a homecooked GPSDO, the other just a separate pps. This morning both of them were quiet; There's no NMEA data coming out of them, no pps, nothing. Garmin's tool won't talk to them. They were on separate supplies, and one of them has RXD tied hard to ground (nothing speaks to it). They did share windowsill, and it hasn't rained. Anyone else lose an 18x? /Kasper Pedersen From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 19:45:33 2009 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 13:45:33 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> References: <4A325071.1090802@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4CBB63.6010403@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Message-ID: <91981b3e0907031245m5ac28363k2e129fb51829de9a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jul 3, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Kasper Pedersen wrote: > I have (had) 2 Garmin GPS-18x fw 3.00 on the windowsill, one driving a > homecooked GPSDO, the other just a separate pps. > This morning both of them were quiet; There's no NMEA data coming out of > them, no pps, nothing. Garmin's tool won't talk to them. > They were on separate supplies, and one of them has RXD tied hard to ground > (nothing speaks to it). > They did share windowsill, and it hasn't rained. > > Anyone else lose an 18x? I have a gps18/lvc that seems to lock up every couple of months. I should really let gpsd at this receiver, and try get some logs of when it locks. -- GDB has a 'break' feature; why doesn't it have 'fix' too? From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 18:50:01 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 15:50:01 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 45662 bytes Desc: not available URL: From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Fri Jul 3 19:55:52 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 12:55:52 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Kasper Pedersen of "Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:30:34 +0200." <4A4E5C5A.7010505@kasperkp.dk> Message-ID: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Anyone else lose an 18x? I assume you have tried power cycling them. I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything useful. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 19:21:36 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:21:36 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Google Patent Search is Broken Message-ID: > On Wed, 01 Jul 2009 10:55:36 -0300, Mike Monett wrote: >> I'm hoping a lot of these problems will soon go away. I have >> WinXP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0 on Ubuntu 9.04, and it works >> great. >> But it doesn't like running my old DOS programs. The screen >> update is so painfully slow it makes the program unusable. I >> tried VB 2.1, but it was only slightly faster. > Have you tried any of the Linux DOS emulators? I find DOSBox > particularly useful for the odd DOS programs I still use. > http://www.dosbox.com/ > John. Hi John, Thanks for the suggestion. I really need to get Win98 running, since I have about 3 decades of code written in Borland Pascal that works with Win98 to find and load programs. For example, one of the biggest problems with Windows and Linux is you have to load the desired program, then find the file you want to work with. The search function is extremely poor, especially if you have hundreds or thousands of files in a folder to look through. My software generates an index of every file on the hard disk, and assigns a comment field to each file. I put keywords in the comment field, such as "pll", "phase noise", "dmtd", "xtal", etc. Then I use a modified Boyer-Moore search in assembly code to find all files that contain the keywords. It is very fast. For example, searching my hard disk for "timenuts" give the following result (search result list omitted for clarity): Searched 202,362 files in 4,130 directories Found 7 hits in 67.331 ms When I find the file I am looking for, I press a single key and my program loads the appropriate program with the target file. I don't have to remeber all the strange incantations needed to make each program perform the desired task - these are all hard-wired into my code and so takes care of all the details. This program is indespensable. I just don't know how I would survive if I had to work the way everyone else does. I would never be able to find anything. Unfortunately, these programs will not run satisfactorily in WinXP. They are so slow they are unusable. And all the other alternatives so far have one or more huge show stopper problems. For example, I tried QEMU. I can partition the drive, but QEMU doesn't want to save the partition information and it disappears the next time I boot. I'm sure there must be something I'm doing wrong, but I can't find any solution. I tried running Win98 in VirtualBox. This was a waste of time. The VGA screen only gives 640x480 resolution, which is unusable. There are several ways to improve this with external video drivers, but the main problem is there are no Guest Additions for Win98. So there are no shared folders to transfer files. Copying to the clipboard doesn't work, you have to constantly capture and release the mouse to go back and forth to Ubuntu, etc. One solution may be to run Virtual PC 2007 in Win XP. I tried that last night before going to bed, but I suddenly realized I need a much larger partition than the 2GB I was using to make Win XP compatible with the 2GB limit in DOS. So the first thing to try is to install another version of Win XP but with a much larger partition. I understand FAT32 will take 127.5GB, but Win XP can't format anything over 32GB. So I have to try running FDISK from a Win98 boot disk and see if the latest version of Ubuntu will let me read the Win98 floppy in Virtual PC 2007 running under Win XP SP3 running in VirtualBox 3.0. Whew! Thanks, Mike From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 19:31:01 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:31:01 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > and the insides if anyone is interested. > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > to the Oscillator Board. > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > Board. > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > Joe Joe, Congratulations on getting your system to work! A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with the turns ratio. Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This further attenuates the signal. I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is down 40dB. You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory before the simulation was complete. I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of your crystal and working backwards. I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks, Mike From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 3 22:20:03 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:20:03 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090703195554.26B1EBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A4E8413.3090104@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> Anyone else lose an 18x? > > I assume you have tried power cycling them. > > I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything useful. > > Battery failure? The things I have been pointing to is to specific firmware bugs or missfeatures. Doesn't rule out a whole line of other failure modes. Soft-lockup conditions triggered by external commands or electrical events included. Cheers, Magnus From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 22:58:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:58:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E8D09.5090709@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was > scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere hand waving. Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such limitations. If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also necessary. > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > This is usually a bad idea. Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer intended that the collector load be capacitive. Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift tempco and the phase noise. A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the output buffer but there are better circuits. > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive loading. There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation than an emitter follower. > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > This isn't new its been around for decades. > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 3 23:25:02 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:25:02 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4E934E.7090500@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > (This is a repost to see if I can figure out why the original was > scrubbed. Sorry for the duplicate.) > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise if the input signal slew rate is too low. In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is selected to minimse the jitter at the output. Bruce From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 00:48:30 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:48:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: Here is my two cents worth 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. It should be fixed before it is modified. The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. ws ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Monett" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 3 23:52:33 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:52:33 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: Message-ID: > Mike Monett wrote: >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't >> know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes >> with the turns ratio. >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be >> extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the >> secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz >> operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection >> to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress >> in this direction. > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. > Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere > hand waving. All the discussion up till now has been handwaving. And you forgot the termination resistor that is required on the transformer secondary. I provide means to get the true voltages and currents later. > Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such > limitations. > If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also > necessary. Obviously. But the currents are likely to be in the microamp region. Not only is that very hard to measure, especially at 10MHz, it doesn't do any good if you don't know what they are supposed to be. But why bother trying to measure the current. If you have an accurate spice model, you know the voltages in the circuit. These can be measured much easier and more accurately than trying to measure microamps in a 10MHz crystal tank. >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank >> circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is >> already well below resonance, which attenuates the output >> voltage. >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the >> resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with >> a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > This is usually a bad idea. > Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer > intended that the collector load be capacitive. > Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal > frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift > tempco and the phase noise. Without putting the circuit in spice, it seems he is operating near the -3dB point. The slope of the phase vs frequency is pretty linear from the +/- 3dB points through resonance. So it doesn't matter much where the tank is tuned. It will give about the same phase noise anywhere. Operating down the side of the resonance curve is a good way to convert AM noise into phase noise. > A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase > noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. I think he really meant to tune the tank to resonance. The problem may simply be incorrect values shown for the tank components. > The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. For a low impedance load. But we don't know what the load is. > A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the > output buffer but there are better circuits. >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a >> limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good >> emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from >> the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat > intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive > loading. Short circuit protection is easy to add. Capacitive loading means the tank would be operating further off resonance, and the basic circuit diagram shows this is unlikely. > There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation > than an emitter follower. Right now there is nothing on the output except the tank. So any added isolation would be an improvement. >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. >> This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at >> one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level >> is down 40dB. >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires >> a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of >> memory before the simulation was complete. > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this > problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. Depends on the time step. To get any accuracy, you need a fine time step. This is slow on any computer, and it eats a lot of memory. > It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start > faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an > initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit > but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator > circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal >> oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of >> thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results >> in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see >> "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" > This isn't new its been around for decades. Please, Bruce, show me one reference that uses my approach. Do not confuse previous attempts that inject a starting impulse into the tank to get the oscillation going. My method initializes the tank to the exact point in the cycle where the current through the crystal motional inductance is at maximum. You can calculate this current exactly, and set the oscillator to whatever crystal dissipation you desire. When the transient analysis starts, the tank proceeds through the cycle as if it had been running forever. It does not need hundreds or thousands of cycles to get the amplitude stabilized. It is already stabilized, and the only thing you have to do is let the electronics catch up. This does not occur with previous methods of injecting a pulse into the tank. This still take many cycles to get the oscillator running and to stabilize the amplitude. The next trick is to measure the amplitude of the peaks to parts-per-million accuracy so you can see if the amplitude is increasing or decreasing. This relies on the peak search capability in Microcap SPICE. LTspice and PSPICE do not have the capability to do this, and Microcap didn't have it in previous releases. So I am pretty confident you have never seen this approach before. Please provide references to support your claim. >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> Thanks, >> Mike ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ from your next post: > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise > if the input signal slew rate is too low. > In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an > output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. > The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is > selected to minimse the jitter at the output. > Bruce Bruce, you have mentioned this many times. I have a hard time seeing how this could work. Linear systems do not care where the filters are located. A zero-crossing detector (limiter) is linear through the zero crossing. So all you really need is one limiter with sufficient gain, and one filter on the output to cut the high frequency noise generated at the input stage of the limiter. However, none of this helps with the flicker noise generated at the input of the limiter. This probably contains most of the noise power, so it is doubtful that any arrangement of low-pass filters will do much good. Can you post a spice analysis of your approach to show us how it works? And don't forget the reference on the SPICE analysis of crystal osc. Regards, Mike From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 02:07:48 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:07:48 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, interests in EE will grow. I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose other options. The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was certainly not obvious to me. Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. Thanks again for all the useful information. Joe None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WarrenS Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Here is my two cents worth 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. It should be fixed before it is modified. The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. ws ******************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Monett" To: Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. > > > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator > > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit > > and the insides if anyone is interested. > > > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the > > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I > > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 > > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the > > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high > > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude > > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on > > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently > > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and > > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage > > to the Oscillator Board. > > > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a > > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come > > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 > > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. > > > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional > > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor > > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the > > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator > > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator > > Board. > > > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the > > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was > > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. > > > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. > > > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. > > > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. > > > Joe > > Joe, > > Congratulations on getting your system to work! > > A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know > what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with > the turns ratio. > > Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely > low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which > will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due > to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is > unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. > > However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit > resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well > below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. > > Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant > frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > further attenuates the signal. > > I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a > small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter > if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower > if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the > 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This > is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, > so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is > down 40dB. > > You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a > very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory > before the simulation was complete. > > I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator > in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of > simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few > dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of > Crystal Oscillators" > > http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > your crystal and working backwards. > > I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated > 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. > > Please let me know if you have any questions. > > Thanks, > > Mike > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 02:11:20 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 14:11:20 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4EBA48.2010600@xtra.co.nz> Mike Monett wrote: > > Mike Monett wrote: > > >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the > >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't > >> know what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid > >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes > >> with the turns ratio. > > >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be > >> extremely low. This requires a large number of turns on the > >> secondary, which will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz > >> operating frequency due to stray capacitance from the connection > >> to the scope. So it is unlikely you will get any useful progress > >> in this direction. > > > Uncalibrated speculation isnt helpful. > > > Estimates of the actual current would be more helpful than mere > > hand waving. > > All the discussion up till now has been handwaving. And you forgot > the termination resistor that is required on the transformer > secondary. I provide means to get the true voltages and currents > later. > > > Tektronix current probes don't seem to suffer from such > > limitations. > > > If the current is very low then a low noise preamp is also > > necessary. > > Obviously. But the currents are likely to be in the microamp region. > > Not only is that very hard to measure, especially at 10MHz, it > doesn't do any good if you don't know what they are supposed to be. > > But why bother trying to measure the current. If you have an > accurate spice model, you know the voltages in the circuit. These > can be measured much easier and more accurately than trying to > measure microamps in a 10MHz crystal tank. > > >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank > >> circuit resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is > >> already well below resonance, which attenuates the output > >> voltage. > > >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the > >> resonant frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. > > >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This > >> further attenuates the signal. > > >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with > >> a small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. > > > This is usually a bad idea. > > > Unless the circuit components have been altered, the designer > > intended that the collector load be capacitive. > > > Using a resonant circuit tuned to resonance at the crystal > > frequency as a load inevitably degrades the amplifier phase shift > > tempco and the phase noise. > > Without putting the circuit in spice, it seems he is operating near > the -3dB point. The slope of the phase vs frequency is pretty linear > from the +/- 3dB points through resonance. > > So it doesn't matter much where the tank is tuned. It will give > about the same phase noise anywhere. > > If and only if the tank operating point is within the region where the phase slope is approximately linear. > Operating down the side of the resonance curve is a good way to > convert AM noise into phase noise. > > A good oscillator has very low AM noise. > > A detuned tank avoids the dc voltage drop and the flicker phase > > noise associated with just using a collector resistor as a load. > > I think he really meant to tune the tank to resonance. The problem > may simply be incorrect values shown for the tank components. > > Perhaps the design is so old that the designer was unaware of the phase noise implications of using a tuned tank. > > The capacitively tapped circuit increases the current in the load. > > For a low impedance load. But we don't know what the load is. > The load for the oscillator buffer is well defined, The output stage load lies somewhere between 0 and 330 ohms. > > A common base amplifier could be used with some advantage in the > > output buffer but there are better circuits. > > >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a > >> limiter if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good > >> emitter follower if you need a sine wave. Take the output from > >> the collector of the 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. > > > Emitter followers are not usually a good idea as they are somewhat > > intolerant of short circuits (accidents do happen) and capacitive > > loading. > > Short circuit protection is easy to add. > Yes but instability due to capacitive loading can only be cured by careful design. Using a series resistor in series with the output can work but reduces the signal level. > Capacitive loading means the tank would be operating further off > resonance, and the basic circuit diagram shows this is unlikely. > > > There are single transistor circuits with better reverse isolation > > than an emitter follower. > > Right now there is nothing on the output except the tank. So any > added isolation would be an improvement. > Its better to do the analysis and design an appropriate stage than just chuck in an emitter follower. > >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the > >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. > >> This is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at > >> one time, so there may well be some other hidden problem. > > >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A > >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level > >> is down 40dB. > > >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the > >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could > >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and > >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires > >> a very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of > >> memory before the simulation was complete. > > > Not so (although some Spice variants may still suffer from this > > problem) this may once have been true with a slow PC. > > Depends on the time step. To get any accuracy, you need a fine time > step. This is slow on any computer, and it eats a lot of memory. > > > It depends on the actual oscillator circuit some circuits start > > faster if one sets up a suitable initial condition such as an > > initial current in the inductor in the crystal equivalent circuit > > but you have to get the current right. With some oscillator > > circuits doing this can slow the simulated oscillator startup. > > >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal > >> oscillator in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of > >> thousands of simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results > >> in only a few dozen cycles. For more information, please see > >> "SPICE Analysis of Crystal Oscillators" > > > This isn't new its been around for decades. > > Please, Bruce, show me one reference that uses my approach. Do not > confuse previous attempts that inject a starting impulse into the > tank to get the oscillation going. > > > My method initializes the tank to the exact point in the cycle where > the current through the crystal motional inductance is at maximum. > > You can calculate this current exactly, and set the oscillator to > whatever crystal dissipation you desire. > > When the transient analysis starts, the tank proceeds through the > cycle as if it had been running forever. It does not need hundreds > or thousands of cycles to get the amplitude stabilized. It is > already stabilized, and the only thing you have to do is let the > electronics catch up. > > This does not occur with previous methods of injecting a pulse into > the tank. This still take many cycles to get the oscillator running > and to stabilize the amplitude. > > The next trick is to measure the amplitude of the peaks to > parts-per-million accuracy so you can see if the amplitude is > increasing or decreasing. > > This relies on the peak search capability in Microcap SPICE. LTspice > and PSPICE do not have the capability to do this, and Microcap > didn't have it in previous releases. So I am pretty confident you > have never seen this approach before. > > Please provide references to support your claim. > > >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm > > >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of > >> your crystal and working backwards. > > >> Thanks, > > >> Mike > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > from your next post: > > > Blindly adding a wide bandwidth limiter will degrade the phase noise > > if the input signal slew rate is too low. > > > In such cases ts better to use a cascade of limiters each with an > > output filter and a well defined gain at the zero crossing. > > > The output filter and the gain (at zero crossing) of each stage is > > selected to minimse the jitter at the output. > > > Bruce > > Bruce, you have mentioned this many times. I have a hard time seeing > how this could work. > Its almost trivial, you actually need to maximise the zero crossing slope to noise ratio for each stage of the limiter. Using a wide bandwidth limiter reduces the output noise to slope ratio below that of a limiter with the optimum bandwidth. A few Spice simulations or hand calculations with a fixed gain limiter will quickly show that there is an optimum filter cutoff frequency that produces the lowest output jitter. The slope gain required to ensure that the jitter is well below that of any subsequent logic is readily calculated. If the signal slew rate is high enough the limiter design is relatively non critical. Its also necessary to optimise the gain distribution within the limiter. Using a single high gain limiter is far from the optimum approach for low slew rate signals. For a given signal and slope gain there is also an optimum number of limiter stages. However even at 1Hz there isn't usually a great deal of improvement beyond 6 limiter stages. At low frequencies the performance of a single stage limiter can be 1,000,000 times worse than a 6 stage limiter. At higher frequencies 1-3 stages may suffice, depending on the signal slew rate and the jitter characteristics of the following circuitry. > Linear systems do not care where the filters are located. A > zero-crossing detector (limiter) is linear through the zero > crossing. > > A limiter isn't a linear system except near the zero crossing. > So all you really need is one limiter with sufficient gain, and one > filter on the output to cut the high frequency noise generated at > the input stage of the limiter. > > It has been obvious (for example it has long been known and shown in practice that the performance using such a system is inferior to a system using a set of cascaded limiters with each successive stage having a greater gain and bandwidth than the previous stage however despite several attempts the optimum gain and bandwidth distribution remained unknown) for decades before the Collins paper that this isn't true in general. If one only needs a modest slope gain then a low gain single stage limiter with an appropriate output filter may suffice. > However, none of this helps with the flicker noise generated at the > input of the limiter. > > What mechanism do you have in mind? If you are naive enough to use a limiter stage without (series) feedback to linearise its performance near zero crossing then flicker noise may be an issue. If the limiter stage has too high a dc and low frequency gain then flicker noise can also be a problem. With sufficient feedback and not too high a dc gain the limiter flicker phase noise can easily be made much lower than that of a crystal oscillator. > This probably contains most of the noise power, so it is doubtful > that any arrangement of low-pass filters will do much good. > > Only if you limit yourself to using a limiter without signal frequency feedback in the active region. A limiter stage generates very little noise when its output is actually at one of the limits. > Can you post a spice analysis of your approach to show us how it > works? > > Oliver Collins did the fundamental analysis in the mid 90's: "The Design of Low Jitter Hard Limiters" IEEE transactions on Communications, Vol 44 No 5, May 1996 pp 601-608 (no it isn't free, you either have to pay to download it, or find a library that gets this Journal) His analysis (possibly with suitable extensions to take into account the fact that device noise tends to increase at high frequencies) also applies to RF limiters. Its almost trivial to extend Collins' analysis to the case where the noise of each limiter stage isn't the same as the other limiter stages. A Spice analysis isn't particularly helpful. Whilst one can use it to estimate the output noise and output slope for each limiter stage, simulating the resultant jitter is usually a little problematic. > And don't forget the reference on the SPICE analysis of crystal osc. > Spice is merely a tool for numeral solution of a set of nonlinear differential equations, the approach you use (and those that others use) has been obvious for some 400 years. > Regards, > > Mike > > Bruce From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Jul 4 02:20:19 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:20:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: Message-ID: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, or did not notice it. Bill....WB6BNQ WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. > The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. > If you do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 4 02:19:55 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 23:19:55 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Message-ID: > Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > J. L. Trantham jltran at worldnet.att.net > Sat Jul 4 02:07:48 UTC 2009 > I did not realize that this post would generate this much > discussion. > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac > Electrophysiologist and it has been some time since I thought > about such issues. I have learned a lot though from the > discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, interests in > EE will grow. You probably don't realize how ironic it is that you are a Cardiac Electrophysiologist, and you have fixed a broken heart (in the sense that a crystal oscillator is the heartbeat of any circuit)? > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, > I could not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible > exception of the XTAL. You have done extremely well. No one is criticizing your observations or your solution. They work, and you can move on to greater things. But we are timenuts. We argue and discuss the most trivial-appearing topics, because underneath may lie much greater truths. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some > reluctance to oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was > an issue. With no obvious failure and no hope of finding a > replacement XTAL, I had to choose other options. Again, you did good. The subject has left the operating table and is on his feet. > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, > at least on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. > There is only room for changing components. I would have liked to > try adding a resistor and capacitor to the emitter circuit of the > amplifier transistor on the Oscillator Board but there is no room. > I have pictures if anyone is interested. The Oscillator Board is > inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm that has a heater coil > wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller Board attached > to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the Output > Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, > plus a ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz > out. > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, > it was certainly not obvious to me. > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but > in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure > of a single XTAL. Your question is a good one. Recall that many precision weigh scales deposit material on a crystal to measure the change in frequency. And other systems immerse the crystal in liquid to look for frequency changes. These show the basic piezo response is intrinsic to the material, and is quite robust. I think crystals have to be pretty badly abused before they quit entirely. I remember grinding a FT-247 crystal for 40 meters to move it up slightly and get off the European broadcasts when I was a teenager. My transmitter was a single 6AG7 with 600V on the plate, and about 4 watts into a long line antenna. The chirp from the sidetone was pretty bad, but the crystal seemed happy no matter what abuse I gave it. The biggest problem with crystal oscillators is overdriving the crystal. The acceleration at the surface is on the order of 4 to 5 million G, so it is easy to understand how overdriving can result in fracture. But the crystal is so badly damaged it won't work, or it oscillates at a different frequency. If you look at the oscillator circuits used during the war, you will find circuits using a 300 Watt 813 transmitting tube with a crystal in the grid. This is abuse beyond belief, and a modern crystal would simply fracture on the first key-down. This has happened many times in the past. Recall the BART failure in San Francisco some years ago where a train ran into another one and killed passengers. The complete analysis was never published, but it really looks like the crystal fractured from overdriving and ran at a much higher frequency. This upset the software timing algorithms enough so the train could not stop as programmed. People died from this mistake. I find these problems in my SPICE crystal analysis, at http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm Most of the circuits I analyze overdrive the crystal by a factor of 10 or more. I don't know why they survive. I don't know what could happen to a crystal to change the piezeoelectric response, which is an intrinsic part of the physics of the crystal. There are many other flaws that can happen to a crystal, but these usually occur at manufacture and probably would never reach the field. So it is likely there is some simple electronic failure in question. > However, none of these were in an oven. > Thanks again for all the useful information. > Joe > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the > amplifier stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. So we don't know what happened in your circuit. But you are still to be congratulated at getting it to work under the most difficult of circumstances. Regards, Mike From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:21:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:21:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. > Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one should get. The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. > The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. > If you do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws > Bruce > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >> > to the Oscillator Board. >> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >> > Board. >> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:36:47 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:36:47 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> Message-ID: <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> WB6BNQ wrote: > I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, > or did not notice it. > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in the circuit. The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the oscillator transistor. Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences for the crystal current etc. Bruce > WarrenS wrote: > > >> Here is my two cents worth >> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >> It should be fixed before it is modified. >> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >> >> ws >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 03:51:33 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 15:51:33 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ED1C5.9080505@xtra.co.nz> Joe You can always try to see how it performs with a cheap crystal, padding out the ESR with a resistor to determine the ESR limit at which the circuit fails to oscillate. The crystal current doesn't depend strongly on the crystal operating Q(as long as the circuit oscillates), so using a cheap crystal in a test should give some idea of the oscillator circuit behaviour. Some means of estimating the actual crystal ESR should give some clues to the crystal health. Crystals can develop cracks or break, electrode contacts can become disconnected etc. Early WWII crystals in non hermetic packages often used to fail in a relatively short time. Once the circuit is working correctly, you want substantial output you can always add an external amplifier. Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. > > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist > and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned > a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, > interests in EE will grow. > > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could > not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to > oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no > obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose > other options. > > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least > on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room > for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and > capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the > Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is > interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm > that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller > Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the > Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a > ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. > > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was > certainly not obvious to me. > > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden > death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years > with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. > However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier > stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of WarrenS > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" > labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you > do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series > with the 47 ohms. > > ws > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> >>> Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> >>> Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> >>> there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> to the Oscillator Board. >>> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> >>> thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> >>> to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> Board. >>> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> >>> amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 04:05:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:05:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4ED4FD.2050204@xtra.co.nz> You can estimate the crystal current by measuring the RF voltage across the 15pF cap in the oscillator circuit and estimate/measure the varactor and trimmer capacitors. Alternatively, temporarily replace all these caps with a 33pF cap connected from the inductor in series with crystal and ground. 33pf has a reactance of ~500 ohm at 10MHz. Use a relatively low capacitance probe for this and account for the probe capacitance in the calaculations. This should at least allow you to determine if the crystal current is around 10uA, 100uA or 1mA or more. Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I did not realize that this post would generate this much discussion. > > While I have a BEE and MSEE, I am a practicing Cardiac Electrophysiologist > and it has been some time since I thought about such issues. I have learned > a lot though from the discussions and as medicine as we know it winds down, > interests in EE will grow. > > I agree with Warren. It should be fixed before modified. However, I could > not find anything that was 'broken' with the possible exception of the XTAL. > As I tried various things, I did notice from time to time some reluctance to > oscillate suggesting that the oscillator stage was an issue. With no > obvious failure and no hope of finding a replacement XTAL, I had to choose > other options. > > The real problem is size. There is no room for added components, at least > on the Oscillator Board which is inside a sealed oven. There is only room > for changing components. I would have liked to try adding a resistor and > capacitor to the emitter circuit of the amplifier transistor on the > Oscillator Board but there is no room. I have pictures if anyone is > interested. The Oscillator Board is inside a metal can about 0.5x1.5x2.0 cm > that has a heater coil wrapped around the outside and an Oven Controller > Board attached to the outside. This package is surrounded by foam with the > Output Board on one face of the foam, mounted to one wall of the outside > metal package. The bottom of the metal package has 2 feed thru's, plus a > ground connection. One is 5 VDC and the other is the 10MHz out. > > While with better equipment one might be able to find a problem, it was > certainly not obvious to me. > > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden > death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years > with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. > However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > None the less, with a simple change of resistor, the gain in the amplifier > stage increased and, at least so far, problem solved. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of WarrenS > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 7:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The "Grn" > labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. If you > do 'need' to modify the gain, > It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series > with the 47 ohms. > > ws > ******************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Monett" > To: > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >> >> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >> >>> Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >> >>> Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> >> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >> >>> there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> to the Oscillator Board. >>> >> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >> >>> thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >> >>> to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> Board. >>> >> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >> >>> amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >> >> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >> >> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >> >> > Joe >> >> Joe, >> >> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >> >> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >> the turns ratio. >> >> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >> >> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >> >> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >> >> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >> further attenuates the signal. >> >> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >> >> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >> >> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >> >> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >> down 40dB. >> >> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >> before the simulation was complete. >> >> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >> Crystal Oscillators" >> >> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >> >> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >> your crystal and working backwards. >> >> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >> >> Please let me know if you have any questions. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Mike >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 04:27:58 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 21:27:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> A couple more thoughts; Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. As Bruce said: > "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. One last, way out thought. It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? ws ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WarrenS wrote: >> Here is my two cents worth >> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >> It should be fixed before it is modified. >> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >> > Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one > should get. > The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? > With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor > (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. > Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal > current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. > >> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >> >> ws >> > Bruce >> ******************** >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike Monett" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>> >>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>> >>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>> >>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>> >>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>> > Board. >>> >>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>> >>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>> >>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>> >>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>> >>> > Joe >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>> >>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>> the turns ratio. >>> >>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>> >>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>> >>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>> >>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>> further attenuates the signal. >>> >>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>> >>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>> >>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>> >>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>> down 40dB. >>> >>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>> before the simulation was complete. >>> >>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>> Crystal Oscillators" >>> >>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>> >>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>> your crystal and working backwards. >>> >>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>> >>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 04:55:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:55:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz> <0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> WarrenS wrote: > A couple more thoughts; > > Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. > Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and > more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. > > AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? > If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. > > As Bruce said: > >> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >> > With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, > BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. > AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. > > Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. > It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. > > One last, way out thought. > It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, > ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? > If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? > > ws > > The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that corresponds to minimum phase noise. The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and hence the output amplitude. It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between the 5V supply and ground. Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by selecting a resistor value. Bruce > ***************** > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> Here is my two cents worth >>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>> >>> >> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >> should get. >> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >> >> >>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>> >>> ws >>> >>> >> Bruce >> >>> ******************** >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Mike Monett" >>> To: >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>> >>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>> >>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>> >>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>> >>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>> > Board. >>>> >>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>> >>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>> >>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>> >>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>> >>>> > Joe >>>> >>>> Joe, >>>> >>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>> >>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>> the turns ratio. >>>> >>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>> >>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>> >>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>> >>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>> >>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>> >>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>> >>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>> >>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>> down 40dB. >>>> >>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>> >>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>> >>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>> >>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>> >>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>> >>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 05:02:15 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 17:02:15 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 Message-ID: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments please? 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: gpsstat1.png Type: image/png Size: 12282 bytes Desc: not available URL: From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 05:05:57 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:05:57 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> > Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences ... True, but with the AC voltages as low as they are, I do think it is safe to think that the crystal current should be higher. I was not suggesting to arbitrarily rise the Vcc, I was asking any chance it is at the wrong voltage??? Even though 2.49 volts is plenty of Vcc to design an osc circuit to run on, It seems like a low, funny voltage to design for, on what I assume is an old product. ws ******************* ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:36 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WB6BNQ wrote: >> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, >> or did not notice it. >> >> Bill....WB6BNQ >> >> >> > It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in > the circuit. > The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the > oscillator transistor. > Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the > consequences for the crystal current etc. > > Bruce >> WarrenS wrote: >> >> >>> Here is my two cents worth >>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>> >>> ws >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 05:40:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 17:40:49 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> References: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> <4A4ECE4F.7070405@xtra.co.nz> <1850C28EB4F645FB849A746721AD176B@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EEB61.8080105@xtra.co.nz> Warren I agree, it's certainly possible that the external circuitry should have a higher operating voltage than 5V. A crystal current of 50uA to 1mA or so might perhaps be expected for a typical 10MHz overtone crystal. Unless some non standard crystal cut with exceptionally high ESR is used. The oscillator transistor dc emitter current appears consistent with a crystal current of around 1mA or so. Can use Spice to check but there is no need for elaborate starting techniques when simulating this circuit as it has plenty of excess gain if the simulated Q isn't too large (50,000 or so is easy) (only ESR has much effect on the crystal current). Elaborate simulations looking for ppm changes when the active device models aren't that good can be counterproductive. Doing this with any confidence requires enormous trust in the convergence of the numerical algorithms employed. All flavours of Spice do have problems with accuracy and convergence when the condition number of the solution matrix is large enough. Often this is because the simulated circuit is unstable so an educated guess as to what to change to preserve stability/convergence is required. Occasionally Spice can even predict noise that is much larger than that actually measured (it can have trouble when one has both positive and negative feedback loops). Bruce WarrenS wrote: >> Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the consequences ... >> > > True, but with the AC voltages as low as they are, I do think it is safe to think that the crystal current should be higher. > I was not suggesting to arbitrarily rise the Vcc, I was asking any chance it is at the wrong voltage??? > Even though 2.49 volts is plenty of Vcc to design an osc circuit to run on, It seems like a low, funny voltage to design for, on what I assume is an old product. > > ws > ******************* > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:36 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WB6BNQ wrote: >> >>> I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, >>> or did not notice it. >>> >>> Bill....WB6BNQ >>> >>> >>> >>> >> It was noticed, but it is consistent with the resistor values used in >> the circuit. >> The crystal current is determined by the dc emitter current of the >> oscillator transistor. >> Thus one cannot arbitrarily increase Vcc without considering the >> consequences for the crystal current etc. >> >> Bruce >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 05:54:32 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 22:54:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, WS **************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > WarrenS wrote: >> A couple more thoughts; >> >> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >> >> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >> >> As Bruce said: >> >>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>> >> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >> >> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >> >> One last, way out thought. >> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >> >> ws >> >> > The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being > periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. > There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that > corresponds to minimum phase noise. > The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and > hence the output amplitude. > It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the > output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. > Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still > cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. > The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network > (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between > the 5V supply and ground. > Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by > selecting a resistor value. > > Bruce >> ***************** >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>> >>>> >>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>> should get. >>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>> >>> >>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>> Bruce >>> >>>> ******************** >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>> To: >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>> >>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>> >>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>> >>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>> >>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>> > Board. >>>>> >>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>> >>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>> >>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>> >>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>> >>>>> > Joe >>>>> >>>>> Joe, >>>>> >>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>> >>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>> >>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>> >>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>> >>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>> >>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>> >>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>> >>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>> >>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>> >>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>> down 40dB. >>>>> >>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>> >>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>> >>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>> >>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>> >>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>> >>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Mike >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 06:08:55 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:08:55 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> Warren My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. Bruce WarrenS wrote: > I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. > > The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, > Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. > If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. > The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. > It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. > The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. > Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. > Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. > If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, > > WS > > **************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> A couple more thoughts; >>> >>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>> >>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>> >>> As Bruce said: >>> >>> >>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>> >>>> >>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>> >>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>> >>> One last, way out thought. >>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>> >>> ws >>> >>> >>> >> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >> hence the output amplitude. >> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >> the 5V supply and ground. >> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >> selecting a resistor value. >> >> Bruce >> >>> ***************** >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>> should get. >>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>> >>>>> ws >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>> ******************** >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>> To: >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>> > Board. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>> >>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>> >>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>> >>>>>> > Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe, >>>>>> >>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>> >>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>> >>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>> >>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>> >>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>> >>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>> >>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>> >>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From john at pcsupportsolutions.com Sat Jul 4 06:26:36 2009 From: john at pcsupportsolutions.com (John Allen) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 02:26:36 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80C625D8C63E4F82BF1E1CB91C739D49@JAOpti755> Try LogMeIn.com for LogMeIn FREE remote access. Great SW. John, K1AE -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Francesco Ledda Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:59 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt you could use remote desktop.... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Brucekareen at aol.com Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:50 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Wireless Adapter for an TBolt Has anyone coupled a wireless adapter to a TBolt so that it can be accessed from a computer in another room. This would be convenient for me if it could be made to work. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 06:37:04 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 23:37:04 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> Bruce 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, the Only Dc current drawn is. 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) Osc board =1.32 ma Buffer board (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. ws ************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current > more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >> >> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >> >> WS >> >> **************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>> >>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>> >>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>> >>>> As Bruce said: >>>> >>>> >>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>> >>>>> >>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>> >>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>> >>>> One last, way out thought. >>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>> >>>> ws >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>> hence the output amplitude. >>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>> the 5V supply and ground. >>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>> selecting a resistor value. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>>> ***************** >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>> should get. >>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ******************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>> To: >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 06:58:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:58:31 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz> <2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> Message-ID: <4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> Warren The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't affect the currents and voltages too much. They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is working properly. NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc voltages. Bruce WarrenS wrote: > Bruce > > 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT > My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm > > With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, > the Only Dc current drawn is. > > 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) > 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) > 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) > Osc board =1.32 ma > > Buffer board > (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma > > > Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. > > ws > > ************** > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Bruce Griffiths" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > > > >> Warren >> >> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >> >> Bruce >> >> WarrenS wrote: >> >>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>> >>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>> >>> WS >>> >>> **************** >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>> >>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>> >>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>> >>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>> >>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>> >>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>> >>>>> ws >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>> >>>> Bruce >>>> >>>> >>>>> ***************** >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>> should get. >>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ws >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> Bruce >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 07:24:08 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 00:24:08 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz><2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice> <4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <60FFB607251341D6BB00A604F0B88AE9@WSOffice> I get a 'if working correct' Vcc of about 3.5V If the Vcc is 2.49 volts, I calculate a 3ma unaccounted for current draw from something. So I have same conclusion, one or more of the following is wrong. 510 Ohm too high, 5 volts too low, un-shown current draw thru Leakey caps or extra circuits or bad data. (plus the pot is (and should be) more likely a 10 K ohm) ws ****************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at > least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active > devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). > > My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't > affect the currents and voltages too much. > They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. > > There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the > unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. > The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is > working properly. > NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct > transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the > current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual > transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. > > Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc > voltages. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> Bruce >> >> 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT >> My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm >> >> With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, >> the Only Dc current drawn is. >> >> 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) >> 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) >> 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) >> Osc board =1.32 ma >> >> Buffer board >> (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma >> >> >> Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. >> >> ws >> >> ************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> Warren >>> >>> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >>> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>>> >>>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>>> >>>> WS >>>> >>>> **************** >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>>> >>>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>>> >>>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ***************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>>> should get. >>>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ws >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > > From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Sat Jul 4 08:21:44 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:21:44 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: G'day Joe, My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) Having said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working HP E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical fracture or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A careful shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved even slightly. I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the results ... Regards, Kit VK2LL ************* Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. Thanks again for all the useful information. Joe From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 4 08:38:00 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:38:00 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A4F14E8.10209@xtra.co.nz> Kit If you are confident of your diagnosis then you have little to lose. The crystal is defunct and isn't going to fix itself so it may be instructive to take a peak inside. However don't the E1938 cans have an internal vacuum? Some care in opening may be required. Bruce Kit Scally wrote: > G'day Joe, > > > My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed > circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) > Having said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working > HP E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical > fracture or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A > careful shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved > even slightly. > I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - > this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given absolution > from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the results ... > > Regards, > > > Kit > VK2LL > > ************* > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in > all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a > single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Sat Jul 4 08:56:06 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 18:56:06 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: <4A4F14E8.10209@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <6A6F1FACFE0F4F1E8FBB1FC0CE1DA079@dd09> Bruce, I'm 99% confident - I had the whole hockey-puk apart and manipulated the capsule to get the unit working. The assembly isn't under vacuum - it just requires a bit of "knack" to prise it apart. However, the crystal puk is, I'm sure, under vacuum or filled with an inert gas (comments please, Rick ?). It's about 15mm diam. I have some pix of the puk. Can you email me privately how to upload pix to "somewhere" - I'll download them tomorrow. I'll wear safetly glasses ... Kit -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Saturday, 4 July 2009 6:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? Kit If you are confident of your diagnosis then you have little to lose. The crystal is defunct and isn't going to fix itself so it may be instructive to take a peak inside. However don't the E1938 cans have an internal vacuum? Some care in opening may be required. Bruce Kit Scally wrote: > G'day Joe, > > > My call on question is: "very seldom with a properly designed > circuit and crystal" (NO flames please on these descriptions !) Having > said that, I have a couple of broken crystals from once-working HP > E1938A oscillators. All appear to have some form of physical fracture > or electrical disconnect within the copper crystal capsule. A careful > shake makes a re-connection but fails if the capsule is moved even > slightly. I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine > the cause - this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if > given absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph > the results ... > > Regards, > > > Kit > VK2LL > > ************* > Do XTAL's fail often? If so, by what mechanism? Slowly fade away? > Sudden death? I am not experienced enough to know this answer but in > all my years with various HAM gear, I do not recall the failure of a > single XTAL. However, none of these were in an oven. > > Thanks again for all the useful information. > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 4 09:29:00 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 11:29:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and > then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments > please? Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else that could have happend to the equipment that day? Cheers, Magnus From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sat Jul 4 10:05:59 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 03:05:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 References: <4A4ECABB.7070502@xtra.co.nz><0229D57144C1466981BA684F9ED581D8@WSOffice> <4A4EE0C3.4040708@xtra.co.nz> <4A4EF1F7.4010503@xtra.co.nz><2828BDE2469C4FDFB67D5EA562FA5CDE@WSOffice><4A4EFD97.5020408@xtra.co.nz> <60FFB607251341D6BB00A604F0B88AE9@WSOffice> Message-ID: Here is a new observation about low Vcc. It is not likely that the Osc Vcc voltage and the Varicap freq control voltage is coming from the same 510 Ohm resistor without a regulator. Something is missing on the schematic, because now any Osc current change would cause the freq to change. And there is the missing 3 plus ma that can not be accounted for in your voltage measurements. The Osc and pot circuits as shown are drawing about 1.5 ma, and there seems to be almost 5ma going thru the 510 ohm. My guess is that this is from a 2.50 volt precision shunt regulator on the Vcc, in the Osc oven, but not shown on the schematic. That should be pretty easy to find. If so, make sure your 47 ohm fix does not cause the 2.490 volts to loose its regulation when the circuit is put back in the oven. The increase temp will cause the osc current to increase. If the EFC pot is really 10K ohm end to end, that would account for the other strange voltage readings. Also if the Freq as small as it is, is still correct, that would eliminate most of the bad xtral possibilities. ws ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "WarrenS" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 12:24 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 I get a 'if working correct' Vcc of about 3.5V If the Vcc is 2.49 volts, I calculate a 3ma unaccounted for current draw from something. So I have same conclusion, one or more of the following is wrong. 510 Ohm too high, 5 volts too low, un-shown current draw thru Leakey caps or extra circuits or bad data. (plus the pot is (and should be) more likely a 10 K ohm) ws ****************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 > Warren > > The Vcc dc current doesn't change much if the circuit is oscillating (at > least it shouldn't if the circuit operating correctly - the active > devices aren't supposed to saturate as thats adds too much phase noise). > > My simulations were over the 50-100C rang although temperature doesn't > affect the currents and voltages too much. > They also don't include loading of the frequency control pot wiper. > > There is no major inconsistency other than the effect of the > unanticipated loading of the EFC pot wiper. > The simulated oscillator Vcc is actually about 3V when everything is > working properly. > NB its important to use models that accurately reflect the correct > transistor junction area just blindly tossing in 2N3904's increases the > current somewhat as the Vbe is lower for a given current than the actual > transistors. The simulated oscillator Vcc is then closer to 2.5V. > > Earlier circuit schematics didn't include as many actual measured dc > voltages. > > Bruce > > WarrenS wrote: >> Bruce >> >> 4ma? Interesting, Maybe IF the Osc was running, BUT >> My DC calculations of the present values I can read on Schematics come to 1.3ma + 0.26 = 1.58 ma load on the 510 ohm >> >> With it NOT osc, which is almost the present case, >> the Only Dc current drawn is. >> >> 1.75 V on 20K = 0.08ma (Q1 bias) >> 1.04 V on 2.2K = 0.47ma (Q1 collector) >> 0.365V on 470 ohm. = 0.77 ma (Q2 emitter) >> Osc board =1.32 ma >> >> Buffer board >> (2*4.7k) at 2.49 V = 0.26 ma >> >> >> Also note that the 4.7 K ohm pot and 4.7K divider voltages show excess current draw somewhere, maybe on the Grn lead bypass cap.. >> >> ws >> >> ************** >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >> >> >> >>> Warren >>> >>> My Spice model of the dc levels in the oscillator indicate a current >>> more like 4mA in the 510 ohm resistor. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> WarrenS wrote: >>> >>>> I just saw your schematic of the rest of the buffer circuit. Sorry I missed it early. >>>> >>>> The Osc Vcc is shown driven from a 510 Ohm resistor, and with the total current thru the 510 res at under 2 ma, >>>> Looks like Osc Vcc should be at more like 4.0 volts instead of 2.49 volts. >>>> If I'm correct about that (this time) then, It has got to be one of three things. >>>> The 510 ohm is wrong, the 5 volts is wrong, or the load on the 510 ohm is wrong. >>>> It should be easy enough to measure which one it is. >>>> The voltage at the junction of the two 4.7K resistors are WRONG. >>>> Looks like it is caused by an excess current draw on the Grn lead. >>>> Check the direction and leakage of the voltage controlled cap diode and bypass. >>>> If all else is right, Look for the cause of the extra loading current on the 510 ohm, >>>> >>>> WS >>>> >>>> **************** >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:55 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> A couple more thoughts; >>>>>> >>>>>> Is the VCC (Red wire) current draw correct?. >>>>>> Should be 1.3 ma (per the schematic values) with the 470 Ohm and >>>>>> more like 7 plus ma with the 47 ohm. >>>>>> >>>>>> AND I don't remember seeing, IS the Freq real close AND can it be tuned by the cap and Green wire voltage? >>>>>> If both answers are YES, at least most things are working correctly. >>>>>> >>>>>> As Bruce said: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> "if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage(s) that one should get" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> With the resistors values shown, I agree that all the other voltages are correct given the 2.49 volts, >>>>>> BUT the 2.49 volt is NOT controlled by any of the values on that schematic, it's just an input. >>>>>> AND the output amplitude is not yet being controlled by current cut off. >>>>>> >>>>>> Something that needs to be asked is are all these the correct values. >>>>>> It sounds like you got them by measuring and not from a "should be" schematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> One last, way out thought. >>>>>> It was my belief that very good osc have some sort of AGC to control the amplitude, >>>>>> ANY chance that the VCC is used as the input to control the amplitude of the Osc output? >>>>>> If so, could it be that the external AGC that is what broken and supplying too low a VCC voltage to the circuit? >>>>>> >>>>>> ws >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> The Colpitts crystal oscillator limits the crystal current by being >>>>> periodically cutoff for part of the cycle. >>>>> There is an optimum duty cycle (usually something like 25%) that >>>>> corresponds to minimum phase noise. >>>>> The oscillator dc collector current determines the crystal current and >>>>> hence the output amplitude. >>>>> It is possible to perform AGC by varying the oscillator Vcc but the >>>>> output amplifier schematic appears to have no circuitry for this. >>>>> Some circuits actually do this, but the oscillator transistor is still >>>>> cutoff for part of the oscillator cycle. >>>>> The oscillator VCC is fed from a tap in a resistive divider network >>>>> (located on the external (to the oven) buffer board) connected between >>>>> the 5V supply and ground. >>>>> Usually one just varies the emitter (or collector) dc current by >>>>> selecting a resistor value. >>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> ***************** >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Bruce Griffiths" >>>>>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 8:21 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> WarrenS wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Here is my two cents worth >>>>>>>> 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. >>>>>>>> It should be fixed before it is modified. >>>>>>>> The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not so, if the resistor values are correct this is the voltage that one >>>>>>> should get. >>>>>>> The question that remains: Is the voltage what the designer intended? >>>>>>> With the Colpitts oscillator used limiting in the oscillator transistor >>>>>>> (usually by current cutoff) is used to limit the amplitude. >>>>>>> Just increasing the voltage without checking the resultant crystal >>>>>>> current will be within permissable limits can be counter productive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for testing. >>>>>>>> If you do 'need' to modify the gain, >>>>>>>> It would seem better to bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ws >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruce >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ******************** >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Mike Monett" >>>>>>>> To: >>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 11:50 AM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > An update on the Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I prepared a 'schematic' of the Output Board and the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board (attached) and I have lots of pictures of the external unit >>>>>>>>> > and the insides if anyone is interested. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I resoldered all connections and replaced all transistors on the >>>>>>>>> > Output Board and the Oscillator Board all to no benefit. I >>>>>>>>> > measured all the components with an LCR meter and found the 0.01 >>>>>>>>> > uF bypass on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the >>>>>>>>> > output transistor of the Output Board to be low and with a high >>>>>>>>> > ESR. I replaced this with about a 20% increase in output amplitude >>>>>>>>> > but still inadequate. I replaced the rest of the 0.01 uF caps on >>>>>>>>> > the output board with no additional benefit. I transiently >>>>>>>>> > disconnected the Red wires from the Oven Controller board and >>>>>>>>> > there was no increase in output or significant increase in voltage >>>>>>>>> > to the Oscillator Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Therefore, it appeared that a 'low output crystal' (if such a >>>>>>>>> > thing exists) was the only logical explanation that I could come >>>>>>>>> > up with. That seeming to be the case, there appeared to be only 4 >>>>>>>>> > options. 1. Toss the OCXO (sorry, too much effort so far). 2. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Build an external amplifier (seemingly too much additional >>>>>>>>> > effort). 3. Try to adjust on the bias of the oscillator transistor >>>>>>>>> > to achieve a higher output (seemed too 'iffy'). Or 4. Lower the >>>>>>>>> > value of the resistor in the emitter circuit of the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board to get more gain out of the last stage in the Oscillator >>>>>>>>> > Board. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I replaced the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor and the >>>>>>>>> > amplitude increased to about 0.4 V P-P into a 50 ohm load and was >>>>>>>>> > sufficient to make it a usable OCXO again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > I reassembled, resealed with Epoxy and all seems well so far. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > If anyone wants pictures or other info, please let me know. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Thanks for all the suggestions and help. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Joe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Congratulations on getting your system to work! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A couple of things. First, trying to measure the currents in the >>>>>>>>> circuit with a ferrite toroid won't do you much good. You don't know >>>>>>>>> what the currents should be, and the secondary of the toroid >>>>>>>>> transformer requires a termination resistor. The value changes with >>>>>>>>> the turns ratio. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just from looking at the circuit, the RF currents will be extremely >>>>>>>>> low. This requires a large number of turns on the secondary, which >>>>>>>>> will probably resonate at or below the 10MHz operating frequency due >>>>>>>>> to stray capacitance from the connection to the scope. So it is >>>>>>>>> unlikely you will get any useful progress in this direction. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> However, from the values on your schematic, the output tank circuit >>>>>>>>> resonates at 9.602MHz with a Q of 9.6. So the tank is already well >>>>>>>>> below resonance, which attenuates the output voltage. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Any stray capacitance you add to the circuit will bring the resonant >>>>>>>>> frequency lower, further aggravating the loss in signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The output tank is tapped with the 75pF and 91pF in series. This >>>>>>>>> further attenuates the signal. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'd change the circuit to a single capacitor across the tank with a >>>>>>>>> small trim capacitor to tune it to resonance. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To get the signal into 50 ohms for distribution, I'd add a limiter >>>>>>>>> if you can tolerate a square wave output, or a good emitter follower >>>>>>>>> if you need a sine wave. Take the output from the collector of the >>>>>>>>> 2N2369 to get the maximum signal amplitude. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Your original post mentions an output amplitude of 20mV. If the >>>>>>>>> normal amplitude is around 2V, this represents a loss of 40dB. This >>>>>>>>> is a huge loss in signal. The circuit obviously worked at one time, >>>>>>>>> so there may well be some other hidden problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> It is possible the crystal is damaged, but this seems unlikely. A >>>>>>>>> crystal oscillator probably won't even start if the signal level is >>>>>>>>> down 40dB. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can check the oscillator and crystal in SPICE. Normally, the >>>>>>>>> high Q of the crystal will make the analysis very slow. It could >>>>>>>>> take many hours for the simulation to begin oscillating and >>>>>>>>> stabilize at the final amplitude. The transient analysis requires a >>>>>>>>> very fine time step for accuracy, and you could run out of memory >>>>>>>>> before the simulation was complete. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have developed a much faster way of analyzing a crystal oscillator >>>>>>>>> in SPICE. Instead of requiring tens or hundreds of thousands of >>>>>>>>> simulated cycles, this method gives accurate results in only a few >>>>>>>>> dozen cycles. For more information, please see "SPICE Analysis of >>>>>>>>> Crystal Oscillators" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://pstca.com/spice/xtal/clapp.htm >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You can estimate the value of the crystal ESR by finding the Q of >>>>>>>>> your crystal and working backwards. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm attaching a gif of your schematic for reference. This is rotated >>>>>>>>> 90 degrees and enhanced in LView Pro to improve the contrast. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Please let me know if you have any questions. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>> From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 10:19:47 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:19:47 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/4 Magnus Danielson : > Steve Rooke skrev: >> >> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments >> please? > > Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? > > I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower > plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red > text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would > track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else > that could have happend to the equipment that day? Your right, it is a bit small so I've managed to figure out how to get the bigger picture (attached). From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 4 10:54:51 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 12:54:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80907032202x12181bc9wf17eca98ec85841d@mail.gmail.com> <4A4F20DC.6090807@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907040319v70090b62i22371b214f0bf99a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A4F34FB.6040805@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > 2009/7/4 Magnus Danielson : >> Steve Rooke skrev: >>> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >>> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments >>> please? >> Small picture, a bit hard to interprent. The green is? >> >> I think I correctly interprented the length of the plot to a week (the lower >> plot shows a regular pattern of 7 cycles and I think I interprent the red >> text to day 168,71 hrs). If it would have been a frequency jump it would >> track in faster than half a day. Can you come to think of something else >> that could have happend to the equipment that day? > > Your right, it is a bit small so I've managed to figure out how to get > the bigger picture (attached). > > From the help help file of the application" > > "Finally, graph mode presents a detailed graph of the EFC (electronic > frequency control), TI (time interval value), PU (predicted > uncertainty) and the number of satellites being tracked. The cursor > readout indicates the time and date, and either the EFC or the TI > corresponding to the location of the cursor. > > On typical Z3801A's, measurements confirm that 1 count of EFC is > roughly equivalent to 1 part in ten to the twelve." That clear up all those issues! Thanks! :) > The event seems to start at about 04:00 30/6/09 and is over at about > 16:00 on 30/6/09. There is no indication that there was a complete > loss of lock to the birds at that time and the number of sats looks no > lower than at other times (OK it's not an ideal number of sats but my > antenna is in a temp position at the moment and cannot see all of the > sky). Infact, if you look at the sat lock trace, you see the same pattern as every other day. Your antenna position do make you loose sight of a few birds as you can see very clearly as a type of sine-shaped pattern occuring, but only the 24 hour occurences is as sharp, but you do see the 12 hour pattern if you look a bit more closely. The antenna position could improve, but I would not say it is the root cause here. > There is no actual loss of lock, it shows that the peak > deviation at that time was about 35ns but obviously something changed > to cause the EFC needing to track away from the "norm" to remain in > lock. I think I spent most of that day in bed with the flu that's > going on here so it was very quiet. We have been having a fair bit of > rain here but it has been over many days, not just this Tuesday. Just > thinking now, but these times are in UTC so that would represent about > 4pm on Tuesday to 4am on Wednesday, again most of time in bed. Hmm. Hope you are clear from that flu now. Nasty buissness. I don't think it is the crystal making a frequency jump, or is it? Such a jump would be high-pass filtered by the locking PLL. Hmm. Looking at the TI is looks like it starts with a steep slope, so it could be such an event, or any other similar event. The EFC responce looks a bit pale thought, so I wonder if that is really what happend. Need to ponder some more. Cheers, Magnus From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 12:25:25 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:25:25 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A4EBC63.B5791600@cox.net> Message-ID: Well, I actually did increase the input voltage so that the Oscillator Board saw 5 VDC instead of about 2.5 VDC and it made little difference in the output amplitude, perhaps 10% or less. I am sorry, but my 'scientific method' has not regenerated itself sufficiently to drive me to make careful notes. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WB6BNQ Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 9:20 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 I agree with Warren. The VCC seems way too low. Interestingly, noone else seems to think so, or did not notice it. Bill....WB6BNQ WarrenS wrote: > Here is my two cents worth > 20 mv output, sure sounds like something is broken. > It should be fixed before it is modified. > The 2.49 volts on the Red input voltage seem LOW, More Vcc maybe. The > "Grn" labeled wire, FreqCtrl input should be about 1/2 VCC for > testing. If you do 'need' to modify the gain, It would seem better to > bypass the 470 ohm resistor with a cap in series with the 47 ohms. > > ws _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From mpb45 at clanbaker.org Sat Jul 4 14:07:22 2009 From: mpb45 at clanbaker.org (Michael Baker) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 10:07:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... Message-ID: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Hello, Time-Nutters.... A question about possible software modifications to the Lady Heather display: Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty (black background) area on the left side of the screen, between the top of the graph area and the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line appears in that large empty space that indicates the time where the cursor is sitting. Other than that, it is just a large empty space in the display. Is this space being used (or reserved) for something I don't know about? Is there some reason why a running time display with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed in that area? Something that could be clearly read from across the room? Thanks-- Mike Baker ------------------- From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Jul 4 14:16:09 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 09:16:09 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> What a wealth of new thought. Let me see if I can remember all the questions asked in prior posts. First, the unit is Option 004 for the HP5316A and B (and perhaps others) frequency counter and some information about it can be found in the service manual here: http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/05316-90011.pdf Second, mentioned in my original posts and probably not emphasized enough recently is the fact that there is an Oven Controller Board attached to the oven that is connected to the Red wire, the Black wire and the Red/White wire. I disconnected the Red wire from the Oven Controller Board and saw no significant change in the voltage on the Red wire. Third, the unit does adjust frequency with both the COARSE and FINE adjustments (Cap and Green wire) and does come spot on frequency as compared to my Thunderbolt. It is quite stable as observed overnight on a scope with the appearance of being with in 1 Hz after an overnight. It may well improve with longer 'warm up'. Sorry, no phase noise measurements but I am working on adding that to my repertoire. As shown in the manual, there is an external board that connects to the 85-50 with three wires supplying regulated +5VDC, ground, and a connection for the 10MHz out with a 100 ohm resistor to ground on that connection on the external board (which I don't think I have mentioned before). Forth, I did make one error in component value that is now corrected on the most recent schematic and that is the 8.2K resistor connected to the base of the oscillator transistor I originally miss read as a 1.2K. I suspect that Bruce's original analysis used 1.2K as the value of this resistor. Component values were obtained by using a magnifying glass to read the values or color codes then verified by using an LCR meter (4274A or SmartTweezer) or Fluke 8050A DMM. I wish I had a 'should be' schematic (anyone with a connection to OAC that could help with this?). All I could do was to 'derive' the schematic you have. The pot measured 4.7K. I do not know what it 'should be'. I did obtain the DC and RF voltages in stages as I progressed through the repair effort and my original schematic did not include all these measurements. The DC voltages were measured with the 8050A and the RF voltages with a TEK 485 and a 10:1 probe. The only component value I found 'out of range' was the .01 uF cap on the 330 ohm resistor in the emitter circuit of the output transistor on the Output Board and replacing it provided only 20% improvement in amplitude. All measurements were made with the oscillator oscillating and before any effort at repair. I did not go back and remeasure DC or RF voltages after replacing the 470 ohm resistor with a 47 ohm resistor. I must admit, I overlooked the low voltage at the bottom of the 4.7K pot. Perhaps I made an error in measurement but it does serve it's function. Perhaps there is a leaky .01 uF bypass cap on the Green wire on the Oscillator Board that I missed but I do not see how that might cause a low output amplitude. The 100K resistor measured correct and that should limit current there to the 15 uA range. Fifth, unfortunately, I do not have any 'spare' 10 MHz crystals and I did not think of substituting a different crystal. Sixth, I was wondering about the AGC issue and the only thought I had was that the 510 ohm resistor dropping the voltage to the Oscillator Board somehow might serve that function. However, raising that voltage to 5 volts made no difference in output amplitude. Lastly, the only part of the 85-50 that is not shown is the Oven Controller Board. It seemed to be functioning normally based on current measurements as the oven warmed up and the fact that the unit would come on frequency and was stable. It would be quite the challenge to disassemble that unit without risk of destroying the oven. As I noted above, the Red, the Black, and the Red/White wire connect to the Oven Controller Board but the Green and Yellow wires do not. My hope was to create a resource for anyone else looking for help in fixing this unit and it appears that there is quite the wealth of information here. If anyone has a site and would like to have the schematics and pictures I have, I would be happy to upload them. Thanks again for all the information. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of WarrenS Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 5:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Here is a new observation about low Vcc. It is not likely that the Osc Vcc voltage and the Varicap freq control voltage is coming from the same 510 Ohm resistor without a regulator. Something is missing on the schematic, because now any Osc current change would cause the freq to change. And there is the missing 3 plus ma that can not be accounted for in your voltage measurements. The Osc and pot circuits as shown are drawing about 1.5 ma, and there seems to be almost 5ma going thru the 510 ohm. My guess is that this is from a 2.50 volt precision shunt regulator on the Vcc, in the Osc oven, but not shown on the schematic. That should be pretty easy to find. If so, make sure your 47 ohm fix does not cause the 2.490 volts to loose its regulation when the circuit is put back in the oven. The increase temp will cause the osc current to increase. If the EFC pot is really 10K ohm end to end, that would account for the other strange voltage readings. Also if the Freq as small as it is, is still correct, that would eliminate most of the bad xtral possibilities. ws From jmiles at pop.net Sat Jul 4 14:45:36 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 07:45:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Message-ID: Once Mark gets his latest .c file ready, I'll see about adding some Nixie digits to it. It could make sense, now that local time display options are being added. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Michael Baker > Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 7:07 AM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... > > > Hello, Time-Nutters.... > > A question about possible software modifications > to the Lady Heather display: > > Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty > (black background) area on the left side of the > screen, between the top of the graph area and > the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. > > When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line > appears in that large empty space that indicates > the time where the cursor is sitting. > > Other than that, it is just a large empty space > in the display. > > Is this space being used (or reserved) for something > I don't know about? > > Is there some reason why a running time display > with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed > in that area? Something that could be clearly > read from across the room? > > Thanks-- > > Mike Baker > ------------------- > > From rdarlington at gmail.com Sat Jul 4 14:45:59 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 08:45:59 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> References: <4A4F621A.8020908@clanbaker.org> Message-ID: I took a screen shot showing the area Mike is talking about with a big red X and a #1. I noticed also that in this shot that there is another block of unused space when changing to the 24 hour plot. I have this marked with a big red X and a #2 in the attached photo. Is this a scaling issue where the graph changes size instead of fills the original space? It also might be nice to have some data points for the oadev plots rather than just a curve or at least a few tick marks at 10^n seconds. Thank you for a very slick software package by the way. In no way am I bashing it. -Bob [image: lh-whitespace.png] On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:07 AM, Michael Baker wrote: > Hello, Time-Nutters.... > > A question about possible software modifications > to the Lady Heather display: > > Looking at the LH display, I see a large empty > (black background) area on the left side of the > screen, between the top of the graph area and > the bottom of the list of satellites being tracked. > > When the cursor is placed in the graph area, a line > appears in that large empty space that indicates > the time where the cursor is sitting. > > Other than that, it is just a large empty space > in the display. > > Is this space being used (or reserved) for something > I don't know about? > Is there some reason why a running time display > with, say-- inch-high digits, could not be placed > in that area? Something that could be clearly > read from across the room? > > Thanks-- > > Mike Baker > ------------------- > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 56072 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Brucekareen at aol.com Sat Jul 4 14:46:12 2009 From: Brucekareen at aol.com (Brucekareen at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 10:46:12 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Connecting Wireless Adapter to a TBolt Message-ID: Thanks to all for your suggestions. Bruce Hunter **************It's raining cats and dogs -- Come to PawNation, a place where pets rule! (http://www.pawnation.com/?ncid=emlcntnew00000008) From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 4 15:36:23 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:36:23 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather Display Question.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The space marked #2 is due to the way the graph scales in 24 hour mode. You get 24 major divisions with 15 minute ticks. The divisions were set up so that time maps consistently to screen pixels (i.e. no rounding or dithering issues). 1024x768 mode uses 960 (24x40) pixels to display the plot. If the graph completely filled the space each hour would need 42.67 pixels. There is enough space there for another hour of data, but then it would be a 25 hour plot... The space marked #1 is a bit of a problem. If you have a Thunderbolt E, part of that space is taken up by the extra satellites that it can track. In the 800x600 mode that space is just not there. Also, the DOS/WIN98 version of the program uses a 8x16 font, so even in 1024x768 mode that space is much smaller (and totally used with a tbolt-E). A clock display would need to accommodate these issues. The oadev plots are already set up so that each major horizontal division is one tau step (1-2-5). Notice that each group of three major horizontal divisions is highlighted in the plot... these are the decade divisions. The oadev plot vertical scale is set up so that each pair of major divisions is a decade (the top line of the plot is 1E-9). Those lines are highlighted (the first highlighted division is 1E-10). The minor vertical ticks in the oadev plot represent the first digit of the mantissa of the value. So basically the vertical scale is logarithmic by decade, and linear within each decade. Unfortunately, if you took enough space to label the plot axes, the graphs get rather cramped and confusing. The osc/pps/temp/dac graphs do have the (vertical scale factor) and values indicated. A '~' means that that value is dynamically calculated. An '=' means that that value is fixed. The latest version will support an optional polar az/el/signal level plot. You can either place it where the adev tables are now or at the right end of the plot area (and the 24 hour plot turns into a 12 hour plot). ---------------------- I took a screen shot showing the area Mike is talking about with a big red X and a #1. I noticed also that in this shot that there is another block of unused space when changing to the 24 hour plot. I have this marked with a big red X and a #2 in the attached photo.-------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 4 20:49:33 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 13:49:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: Message from "Kit Scally" of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 18:21:44 +1000." Message-ID: <20090704204934.5ACFFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - > this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given > absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the > results ... What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough to get a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This might be a good excuse to get a good camera.) How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but that's likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to mask the initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sat Jul 4 22:12:27 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 15:12:27 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? In-Reply-To: <20090704204934.5ACFFBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: On 7/4/09 1:49 PM, "Hal Murray" wrote: > > >> I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - >> this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given >> absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the >> results ... > > What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? > > I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough to get > a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This might be a good > excuse to get a good camera.) > > How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but that's > likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to mask the > initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. > > Clearly, the tool of choice is a plasma cutter, because you don't get the oxidation you do with the oxyacetylene torch, and it works better on stainless steel anyway. Actually, what about a sharp knife making repeated trips around the edge (think of a tubing cutter). You get a very clean cut. For the old TO-5 type cans, I've chucked the device in a suitable drill press (a lathe would work), and used a utility knife on a suitable rest (e.g. A block of wood). You probably aren't lucky enough to have a round can, though. Or a cutoff wheel or saw blade on a dremel type tool. Both work quite nicely. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 4 23:06:01 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 16:06:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:20:03 +0200." <4A4E8413.3090104@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> >>> Anyone else lose an 18x? >> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything >> useful. > Battery failure? I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended periods of time. Mine was less than a year old. It had been plugged in and working fine for several months. Then it just died. > The things I have been pointing to is to specific firmware bugs or > missfeatures. Doesn't rule out a whole line of other failure modes. > Soft-lockup conditions triggered by external commands or electrical > events included. A firmware bug would explain things. So would a loose connection. It was just sitting there working when it died, so I don't expect that anything strange electrical or mechanical happened. As I was poking around, double checking things to make sure I didn't inject too much noise into this discussion, it started working again. It could be the firmware recovered or maybe I jiggled a loose connection back together. In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? The case is hard plastic with no obvious screws. The bottom has a layer of tough non-skid, non-scratch rubber/plastic. I have peeled some of it back (hard work) but I haven't found any screws yet. They may be under the magnets which are either glued in or snap into their holes. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From analogaficionado at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 02:43:35 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:43:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Message-ID: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, this is my first post to the list... Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer to try and run everything under OS X. Some specific questions I have: - How well do the different drivers work? - Is one faster than the other? - What about compatability with various software? Are the software interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used with minimal tweaking? Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! Chad. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Jul 5 02:50:57 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 19:50:57 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 7/4/09 7:43 PM, "Chad Simpson" wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > Actually, this is quite timely.. I've been looking for a basic Ethernet/GPIB box at work.. Jim From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Jul 5 03:02:39 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:02:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message from Chad Simpson of "Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:43:35 PDT." <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090705030240.C82FABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with > the GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have > narrowed the choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or > GPIB-LAN), but I haven't found much information about the differences > between the two. Apart from the obvious (price, tether distance from > the PC), can anyone comment on the pros & cons of the two I have one of the older USB versions. I'm happy with it. It uses one of the popular USB to serial chips so it looks like a typical serial port and the driver should be well debugged. I use it from Linux with no troubles. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 03:04:08 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> Chad Simpson wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > > Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! > Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > The GPIB-LAN device doesn't require drivers so it should work on any modern OS (and hardware) that implements networking via UTP cable and uses TCP/IP. The GPIB-USB adapter needs a driver for the OS in use. Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so you would need to roll your own). The configuration tool for the GPIB-LAN device is a Windows program but you should only need to use it to initially configure the device. The critical configuration parameters are stored in non volatile memory. Bruce From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Jul 5 03:26:07 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 20:26:07 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message from Bruce Griffiths of "Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200." <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB > device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so > you would need to roll your own). I'd be surprised if it takes any driver work. I have one of the older Prologix units. It uses one of the FTDI USB to serial chips. I doubt if they have changed anything as drastic as this. I haven't used OS-X. There are 2 chips that have mostly cornered the market on USB-to-serial adapters: FTDI and Prolific. I expect most OSes (and distributions) include well debugged drivers for both. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From rdarlington at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 03:36:41 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 21:36:41 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without any trouble. It's extremely easy to use. That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote a spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope that nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these devices are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in a drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. -Bob On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 8:43 PM, Chad Simpson wrote: > Hello all, this is my first post to the list... > > Like many of you, over time I've acquired enough test equipment with the > GPIB interface that I'm wanting to make use of it. I have narrowed the > choice down to one of the Prologix devices (GPIB-USB or GPIB-LAN), but I > haven't found much information about the differences between the two. > Apart > from the obvious (price, tether distance from the PC), can anyone comment > on > the pros & cons of the two? I am running all Macs, so anything pertinent > to > using these interfaces under OS X would be especially welcome. I do have > Win XP running under vmware, so if necessary I can use that, though I > prefer > to try and run everything under OS X. > > Some specific questions I have: > - How well do the different drivers work? > - Is one faster than the other? > - What about compatability with various software? Are the software > interfaces really different, or similar enough that either could be used > with minimal tweaking? > > Thanks, and have a great 4th of July everyone! > Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Jul 5 05:40:25 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 22:40:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without any > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote a > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope that > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these devices > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in a > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > -Bob I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. Jim From vk2ihl at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 09:47:33 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:47:33 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> Hi Joe I am just a radio amateur and I build a lot of oscillators for my need, including a GPSDO "tunable" with CW25-TIM GPS receiver chip set. Please allow me to share my usual trouble shooting when oscillator is not working properly. I see an oscillator is just only a high gain amplifier with positive feed back via "narrow band pass" filtering to sustain an oscillation in a controllable manner. I had a look at your circuit with all Vcbe of all transistors transcribed, it seems to me all transistors are within normal limit (bias # 0v7). Please look at the "narrow filter", my suggestion is to check this circuit. 1) 22pF in parallel with a serial (10uH - 30pF) is a diplexer, high impedance to ground for 10 MHz and low impedance to ground for unwanted spectrum. 2) 80 pF feed back capacitor. 3) 10 MHz Xtal Now I can perform a differential diagnosis: All transistors are correctly biased, can eliminated fault from power supply and transistors. A quick and dirty approach is to do a loose coupling (capacitor or inductor) with the 10 uH inductor, connect to an external 10 MHz variable output source, check gain of all transistor stages to the last output Check high impedance to ground for 10 MHz, disconnect the "diplexer", check magnitude of output signal, signal is increasing, hurray we see the problem. Same signal level, put the diplexer back to the circuit, check the 80 pF cap, all else failed, the last component of the "narrow filter" is the Xtal. Good luck Pascal Nguyen vk2ihl / xv2pn From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 10:07:58 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 22:07:58 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > I am just a radio amateur and I build a lot of oscillators for my need, > including a GPSDO "tunable" with CW25-TIM GPS receiver chip set. Please > allow me to share my usual trouble shooting when oscillator is not working > properly. > I see an oscillator is just only a high gain amplifier with positive feed > back via "narrow band pass" filtering to sustain an oscillation in a > controllable manner. > I had a look at your circuit with all Vcbe of all transistors transcribed, > it seems to me all transistors are within normal limit (bias # 0v7). > Please look at the "narrow filter", my suggestion is to check this circuit. > 1) 22pF in parallel with a serial (10uH - 30pF) is a diplexer, high > impedance to ground for 10 MHz and low impedance to ground for unwanted > spectrum. > A poor description that misses the function of this inductor entirely, such a network acts as a mode suppressor by making the impedance to ground inductive for the crystal mode that is being suppressed. If one of the 2 feedback capacitors in the Colpitts oscillator is replaced by an C || (L+C) network oscillation won't occur in the frequency range for which that network is inductive. > 2) 80 pF feed back capacitor. > 3) 10 MHz Xtal > > Now I can perform a differential diagnosis: > > All transistors are correctly biased, can eliminated fault from power supply > and transistors. > > A quick and dirty approach is to do a loose coupling (capacitor or inductor) > with the 10 uH inductor, connect to an external 10 MHz variable output > source, check gain of all transistor stages to the last output > > Check high impedance to ground for 10 MHz, disconnect the "diplexer", check > magnitude of output signal, signal is increasing, hurray we see the problem. > > Bad idea, the (overtone??) crystal will then probably oscillate at the frequency of the mode that this network is intended to suppress. Better (if possible) to actually measure the impedance of this network as a function of frequency to check that its has the required characteristic. As far as I can deduce this circuit limits the amplitude by having the oscillator transistor saturate for a part of the oscillation cycle. Its better to use transistor cutoff as the limiting mechanism as its quieter. However this requires a larger oscillator transistor Vcb than is used in this circuit. Excessive loss in the frequency determining network or a lossy varicap or circuit board can significantly reduce the crystal current to well below the design value. > Same signal level, put the diplexer back to the circuit, check the 80 pF > cap, all else failed, the last component of the "narrow filter" is the Xtal. > > > Good luck > > Pascal Nguyen > vk2ihl / xv2pn > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bruce From philipp80 at gmx.de Sun Jul 5 11:59:55 2009 From: philipp80 at gmx.de (philipp80 at gmx.de) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:59:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5095BB.5060808@gmx.de> Hi Chad, i have some Agilent E5810A GPIB-LAN-Gateways for sale. They are used but like new. You can got more informations here: http://129.69.137.180/gpib/ Price is 299 EUR incl. german VAT plus shipping. You will get an invoice. We also have GPIB-cables 0.5m in stock, 10 EUR for one cable. If you or anybody else is interessted or needs more information, please let my know by eMail. Best Regards Philipp From wje at quackers.net Sun Jul 5 12:26:02 2009 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 08:26:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A509BDA.4080206@quackers.net> Lux, James P wrote: I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. Jim I have one of the LAN units also. I've written a number of scripts for it using Java. Anything that can open a port can use the device easily. Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Jul 5 14:50:51 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 17:50:51 +0300 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest Ethernet. - With any kind of equipment in question! Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device drivers, it works with longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's routable, you can use it remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) and because there are no need for drivers it's much more platform / OS independent than USB. USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB port, like mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB devices won't work with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which need to be installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking about the issue when you install a driver and later plug it into different USB port the system will ask you to isntall the driver again. Also, many USB devices based on some kind of USB-Serial chip (like FTDI) may have different COM-addresses for different USB ports and this leads to same kind of issue: it works only with one USB port witout changing some settings. In the worst case you must remember the corrent USB port for each device. With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which switch) you plug in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of your local network (or there is VPN remote connection to your network). But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You can use it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers etc. and write some kind of command scripts for the instruments. Maybe it's not best possible software for Prologix but it it's free. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From demianm_1 at yahoo.com Sun Jul 5 16:40:21 2009 From: demianm_1 at yahoo.com (Demian Martin) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 09:40:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Message-ID: <35DA50F2BF924D48AF881893ED3DA658@DemianM1330> I looked at the Prologix stuff long and hard BUT it is something of a dead end. I didn't want to write new software and I have some existing apps that I use. I found an NI gpib-enet ( http://digital.ni.com/public.nsf/allkb/D2E1B6D23CD75B0686256D4E006E980D ) on ebay that has worked fine for me. The first gen is a little bit of a problem to use since it predated DHCP and setting its IP address is involved. Ones its up all of the NI GPIB stuff work with it as does other GPIB stuff. I would get the gpib-enet 100 for a business application since it supports DHCP and NI supports it in the latest releases. Demian Martin Product Design Service From support at prologix.biz Sun Jul 5 17:44:58 2009 From: support at prologix.biz (Prologix) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 10:44:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: Message from Bruce Griffiths of "Sun, 05 Jul 2009 15:04:08 +1200." <4A501828.4000702@xtra.co.nz> <20090705032608.56330BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: Some clarifications... Prologix GPIB-USB and GPIB-LAN have identical command interfaces. Programs written for one can be easily ported to the other. Both products are compatible with EZGPIB and KE5FX GPIB toolkit applications. GPIB-LAN, being a network device, does not require special drivers nor is limited by USB cable tethering distance. Also, GPIB-LAN can be wireless enabled (using a bridge). GPIB-USB drivers are available for Windows Vista, Max OS X (Intel and non-Intel), and for all common operating systems. Python, C, C#, VB.Net, MATLAB and LabVIEW samples are available at our website. (You can communicate with Prologix controllers using LabVIEW Serial Port functions or TCP functions. However, they are not compatible with programs (VIs) that use GPIB functions.) Regards, Abdul http://prologix.biz -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Saturday, July 04, 2009 8:26 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > Thus the GPIB-LAN device should work with OS-X whereas the GPIB-USB > device will need a driver (currently there doesn't appear to be one so > you would need to roll your own). I'd be surprised if it takes any driver work. I have one of the older Prologix units. It uses one of the FTDI USB to serial chips. I doubt if they have changed anything as drastic as this. I haven't used OS-X. There are 2 chips that have mostly cornered the market on USB-to-serial adapters: FTDI and Prolific. I expect most OSes (and distributions) include well debugged drivers for both. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From vk2ihl at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 20:51:31 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:51:31 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Hi Joe Please open the link below http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band pass filter Kind regards Pascal Nguyen From time-nuts at kasperkp.dk Sun Jul 5 21:45:15 2009 From: time-nuts at kasperkp.dk (Kasper Pedersen) Date: Sun, 05 Jul 2009 23:45:15 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS 18x death and resurrection - was: GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A511EEB.20002@kasperkp.dk> Hal Murray wrote: > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > periods of time. > There is a battery inside. A tiny little Panasonic rechargeable lithium cell. Mine were at 2.7V. > Mine was less than a year old. It had been plugged in and working fine for > several months. Then it just died. > Six months. The most recent component is dated 0751, so they've been in storage for a while before I got them. > As I was poking around, double checking things to make sure I didn't inject > too much noise into this discussion, it started working again. > I discharged the batteries on my pair. 0.6V was not low enough, then I tried again with a dead short for a few minutes, and they both came alive again. So just discharging in the drawer for a month or two might bring it back to life. So I support the 'yet another buggy firmware' theory. MediaTek.tw does not give me a warm fuzzy feeling. > In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? > The case is two cups. The top has two 'rings' 2mm apart, the outer ring being the outside of the top. The bottom also has two rings, 1mm smaller than the top. The cavity between the two rings on the bottom is filled with silicone before the top is pushed on. It is held in place with 3 snap locks, one of which is right next to the thickest bulge on the strain relief. If you insert a flat screwdriver and pry the top up exactly opposite that bulge, you can get the silicone to release and it's then relatively easy to see where the snaps are. Apply force. If you have compressed air, pull off the bottom label, pull the green seal off the breather hole, and apply compressed air. The magnets are glued on from the inside, there's nothing on the outside. (and on a side note, the tiny little TCXOs in them are both ~1.4 ppm low) /Kasper Pedersen From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 22:08:19 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 10:08:19 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A512453.5050101@xtra.co.nz> Pascal There is also a parallel resonance in the L2 C6 C7 network. Plus several self resonances in L2. To get a more complete picture you need to also include the phase shift and gain over a wide band as the phase shift determines whether oscillation is possible when the loop gain is greater than 1. Bruce Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band > pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 5 23:55:38 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 11:55:38 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> References: <5E3A98139472463E8AE393CC8778EAB0@S0028384766> <22ddffe10907050247x7e615c8avd73bc2fe7dd790fd@mail.gmail.com> <4A507B7E.2020803@xtra.co.nz> <22ddffe10907051351u1ade6702pc415658c8893e566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A513D7A.4070403@xtra.co.nz> Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow band > pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Pascal On a closer look your simulation has very little value at all. If one is using an AC analysis its far more informative to open the feedback loop an inject a signal to measure the loop gain and phase. One then has sufficient information to determine if the oscillator has sufficient gain and an aprpriate phase shift for oscillation to occur at a given frequency. Your analysis injects an external signal whilst leaving the oscillator feedback loop closed - not helpful or particularly useful at all. If one wishes to simulate the actual output amplitude, then no extra source is required with a good simulator the oscillator will oscillate and limit. With the relatively low Q for the the crystal you have assumed the oscillator will start and limit within a reasonable time without problems as long as you dont use to short a minimum time step. You have also assumed a fundamental crystal, an overtone crystal with a somewaht higher ESR than 7 ohms is far more likely to have been used, but without measuring the actual crystal one cannot be certain. Bruce From jltran at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 6 01:12:27 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:12:27 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 In-Reply-To: <4A513D7A.4070403@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: Bruce, Pascal, and anyone else, Stanley Reynolds has hosted my pictures of the unit as well as the schematic. The link is here: http://www.n4iqt.com/JLTrantham/85-50/ Hopefully, this will be helpful to someone in the future. I appreciate all the effort everyone has put into this and it will take me months to 'digest' all the information. I put the counter to work today and it functioned well. I am going to leave it on for about a week and see where the oscillator is. I will try to bring it on frequency after it has been on for 24 - 48 hours then let it run. I have 3 of these, all with Option 004 and we will see where they are at the end of a week or so. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Sunday, July 05, 2009 6:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 Pascal Nguyen wrote: > Hi Joe > > Please open the link below > > http://www.airlab.com.au/nuts/joe_1.htm > > for an update of a simulated fault from an out of tune of the narrow > band pass filter > > Kind regards > > Pascal Nguyen > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Pascal On a closer look your simulation has very little value at all. If one is using an AC analysis its far more informative to open the feedback loop an inject a signal to measure the loop gain and phase. One then has sufficient information to determine if the oscillator has sufficient gain and an aprpriate phase shift for oscillation to occur at a given frequency. Your analysis injects an external signal whilst leaving the oscillator feedback loop closed - not helpful or particularly useful at all. If one wishes to simulate the actual output amplitude, then no extra source is required with a good simulator the oscillator will oscillate and limit. With the relatively low Q for the the crystal you have assumed the oscillator will start and limit within a reasonable time without problems as long as you dont use to short a minimum time step. You have also assumed a fundamental crystal, an overtone crystal with a somewaht higher ESR than 7 ohms is far more likely to have been used, but without measuring the actual crystal one cannot be certain. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:04:39 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:04:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P wrote: > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB without > any > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I wrote > a > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope > that > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If you > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > devices > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly or > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting in > a > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > -Bob > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. > > Jim > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly pythonlabtools as well. I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no longer have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, the more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk of obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, and if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd rather not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary (single-platform) drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly portable and well supported in the future. I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear on how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. - Chad. From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:14:15 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 20:14:15 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If you are willing to (or want to) write your own software, than the Prologix Ethernet adapter is the way to go. I've done it in PERL under Solaris and IRIX without any trouble. Just open a socket connection on port 23 and send over text commands. Very easy. MUCH easier than using NI products. The trade-off is that your software will only work with the Prologix box and guarantees incompatability for those without one. The upside is that it works over a network, even wireless if you plug it into a wireless bridge. Real handy when you don't want to stay tied to a workbench. These are extra nice if all you have is a laptop. Mine is currently in a drawer, but I'm not willing to part with it because it's just that handy when you need something done fast. -Bob On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Chad Simpson wrote: > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P >wrote: > > > > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and issue > > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB > without > > any > > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I > wrote > > a > > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 scope > > that > > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work with > > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If > you > > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > > devices > > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very quickly > or > > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting > in > > a > > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts > > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying > to > > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that > way. > > > > Jim > > > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly > pythonlabtools as well. > > I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no longer > have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, the > more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost > disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk of > obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, > and > if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd rather > not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary (single-platform) > drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly > portable and well supported in the future. > > I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it > uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear on > how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. > > - Chad. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:41:23 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:41:23 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> References: <688dcb840907041943lce7b8bbx64b77fb026adcd28@mail.gmail.com> <4A50BDCB.7010908@sci.fi> Message-ID: <688dcb840907051941y18bb100ek356384ef94a185ed@mail.gmail.com> Good points... and pretty much in line with my thinking. Based on the comments here, I'm strongly leaning toward the LAN version now. I'll definitely have a closer look at the KE5FX toolkit, there are some very interesting applications there. Thanks everyone for your input. Looks like I have a bit more homework to do on the software end of things, but this has been very informative. - Chad. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Esa Heikkinen wrote: > If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest Ethernet. - > With any kind of equipment in question! > > Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device drivers, it works with > longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's routable, you can use it > remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) and because there are no > need for drivers it's much more platform / OS independent than USB. > > USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB port, like > mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB devices won't work > with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which need to be > installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking about the issue > when you install a driver and later plug it into different USB port the > system will ask you to isntall the driver again. Also, many USB devices > based on some kind of USB-Serial chip (like FTDI) may have different > COM-addresses for different USB ports and this leads to same kind of issue: > it works only with one USB port witout changing some settings. In the worst > case you must remember the corrent USB port for each device. > > With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which switch) you plug > in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of your local > network (or there is VPN remote connection to your network). > > But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) > > I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You can use > it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers etc. and write > some kind of command scripts for the instruments. Maybe it's not best > possible software for Prologix but it it's free. > > -- > 73s! > Esa > OH4KJU > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From analogaficionado at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 02:53:05 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2009 19:53:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <688dcb840907051953l79d8dd98la5864cddc3a715da@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it should be pretty simple, even in shell. I have some noodle-scratching to do on retrieving graphical output from instruments though. I'm not terribly concerned about being compatible with other hardware, as long as the hardware I get won't be left useless or anchored to an archaic OS because there are drivers etc. which become 'unsupported' by the vendor. - Chad. On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:14 PM, Robert Darlington wrote: > If you are willing to (or want to) write your own software, than the > Prologix Ethernet adapter is the way to go. I've done it in PERL under > Solaris and IRIX without any trouble. Just open a socket connection on > port > 23 and send over text commands. Very easy. MUCH easier than using NI > products. The trade-off is that your software will only work with the > Prologix box and guarantees incompatability for those without one. The > upside is that it works over a network, even wireless if you plug it into a > wireless bridge. Real handy when you don't want to stay tied to a > workbench. These are extra nice if all you have is a laptop. Mine is > currently in a drawer, but I'm not willing to part with it because it's > just > that handy when you need something done fast. > > -Bob > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:04 PM, Chad Simpson >wrote: > > > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:40 PM, Lux, James P > >wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/4/09 8:36 PM, "Robert Darlington" wrote: > > > > > > > I have a GPIB-LAN, and it works. You basically telnet to it and > issue > > > > commands either manually or via software. It works with EZ-GPIB > > without > > > any > > > > trouble. It's extremely easy to use. > > > > > > > > That being said, it is not a substitute for a GPIB card from NI. I > > wrote > > > a > > > > spiffy software program in VB to pull data from a Tektronix 7854 > scope > > > that > > > > nobody can use unless they have a GPIB-LAN adapter. It won't work > with > > > > LabView or anything else out there with the exception of EZGPIB. If > > you > > > > care about compatibility with canned software that talks GPIB, these > > > devices > > > > are not the way to go. If you want to get up and running very > quickly > > or > > > > just want to use EZGPIB, it's fine. Ultimately my adapter is sitting > > in > > > a > > > > drawer and I bought a PCI-GPIB card on eBay for about $100. > > > > > > > > -Bob > > > > > > > > > I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell > scripts > > > for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm > trying > > to > > > get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that > > way. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, > possibly > > pythonlabtools as well. > > > > I shied away from the NI devices for a couple of reasons... 1) I no > longer > > have a suitable machine with PCI slot. 2) Since this is for hobby use, > the > > more expensive interfaces like the GPIB-ENET/100 are at a cost > > disadvantage. 3) I would like to build on a platform with minimal risk > of > > obsolescence. I am already down to a single virtual machine running XP, > > and > > if at all possible it will be my last ever copy of Windows. So I'd > rather > > not invest in tools which require Windows or proprietary > (single-platform) > > drivers. Shell / python / driverless is appealing as it should be highly > > portable and well supported in the future. > > > > I did find OSX drivers for the Prologix USB on their site - looks like it > > uses the FTDI chip. So drivers should not be an issue. I wasn't clear > on > > how the LAN version worked though, but driverless / Telnet makes sense. > > > > - Chad. > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Mon Jul 6 04:00:11 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:00:11 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051941y18bb100ek356384ef94a185ed@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Gents, as you know I have tried in my utility EZGPIB to supply the user with high level functions for data communications which keep him away from the low level tasks of direct communication with the interface. Since EZGPIB not only supports the Prologix products (USB & LAN) but also GPIB32.DLL based products (i.e. the complete line of NI GPIB interfaces) a script written in EZGPIB is independent from a certain manufacturer to a high degree. That is the point that I wanted to add to the current discussion. Please allow me to note that this independence has its limits that I just happened to come across. I had tried to run a script for my SR620 counter which was set to a gate time of 100 s. The script was a quick and dirty one and set the timeout for GPIB communications to 120 s so that there was enough time for the counter to answer, even if the data was read immediatly after tze start of a new measurement. This script would not run ok on my Prologix GPIB-ETHERNET interface although I was sure that is was ok when I wrote it. It took me some time to realize that I was fooling myself: I had written the script with my NI interface which's DLL allows for some decades of magnitude of timeouts while the Prologix provide a maximum timeout of 4000 ms. That means: Some things cannot translated 1:1 between different manufactures. I changed the script so that the conunter's status byte was read once a second and the "data valid bit" is detected in the status byte. Then the counter's result is read. This of course run ok (also on NI hardware). I will include a warning in the manual of EZGPIB. Best regards Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Chad Simpson > Gesendet: Montag, 6. Juli 2009 04:41 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > Good points... and pretty much in line with my thinking. > Based on the comments here, I'm strongly leaning toward the > LAN version now. I'll definitely have a closer look at the > KE5FX toolkit, there are some very interesting applications there. > > Thanks everyone for your input. Looks like I have a bit more > homework to do on the software end of things, but this has > been very informative. > > - Chad. > > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:50 AM, Esa Heikkinen > wrote: > > > If it's about "Ethernet vs. USB" queston I would always suggest > > Ethernet. - With any kind of equipment in question! > > > > Ethernet is simpy much better: you don't need device > drivers, it works > > with longer cables (over 10 times longer than USB), it's > routable, you > > can use it remotely (VPN), you can turn it wireless (WLAN) > and because > > there are no need for drivers it's much more platform / OS > independent > > than USB. > > > > USB is good for devices which can draw their power from USB > port, like > > mices or keyboards. But it has many drawbacks: some USB > devices won't > > work with Windows Vista. Some USB devices has stupid drivers which > > need to be installed for each USB port in the computer. I'm talking > > about the issue when you install a driver and later plug it into > > different USB port the system will ask you to isntall the driver > > again. Also, many USB devices based on some kind of USB-Serial chip > > (like FTDI) may have different COM-addresses for different > USB ports > > and this leads to same kind of issue: it works only with > one USB port > > witout changing some settings. In the worst case you must > remember the > > corrent USB port for each device. > > > > With Ethernet it's not essential which port (or to which > switch) you > > plug in your device, as long the switch you are using is a part of > > your local network (or there is VPN remote connection to your > > network). > > > > But... of course this in only my opinion. :-) > > > > I have used the Prologix (LAN version) with KE5FX GPIB toolkit. You > > can use it for capturing plots from oscilloscopes, spectrum > analyzers > > etc. and write some kind of command scripts for the > instruments. Maybe > > it's not best possible software for Prologix but it it's free. > > > > -- > > 73s! > > Esa > > OH4KJU > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Mon Jul 6 04:24:03 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 00:24:03 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> References: <688dcb840907051904q2f10c4c7racad42434b57b24d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A517C63.1070501@erols.com> Chad Simpson wrote: >> I'm looking for something that I can write python or tcl or shell scripts >> for and send strings to a GPIB device, and get strings back. I'm trying to >> get away from the LabView .vi model. So, this looks fairly good, that way. >> >> Jim >> > > > Yes, me too - shell or python would be great, I'm presently learning the > latter. I just found PyVISA, which looks like it might be useful, possibly > pythonlabtools as well. Then you should like the prologix usb adapter. It took me maybe a half hour to write an interface to it in python, and then I was up and running. A simple example: ------------------------- #! /usr/bin/env python # 7854.py - try out some gpib data collection using the Prologix gpib-usb controller # import os import termios import serial import time def gpib_init() : ser.write("++mode 1\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++ifc\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++auto 0\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++eoi 0\r") time.sleep(0.1) def gpib_read(addr): ser.write("++addr " + str(addr) + "\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write("++read eoi\r") return ser.readline() def gpib_write(addr,gpibstr): ser.write("++addr " + str(addr) + "\r") time.sleep(0.1) ser.write(gpibstr + "\r") ser = serial.Serial('/dev/ttyUSB0',rtscts=0,timeout=1) ser.write("++ver\r") print ser.readline() gpib_init() gpib_write(10,"ID?\r") print "ID= " + gpib_read(10) + "\r" gpib_write(10,"VMDR\r") gpib_write(10,"HMDB\r") gpib_write(10,"1 0 2 4 >P/W AVG10\r") gpib_read(10) gpib_write(10,"SENDX\r") time.sleep(4) print "X=" + gpib_read(10) + "\r" print "X=" + gpib_read(10) + "\r" ------------------------- -Chuck Harris From jra at febo.com Mon Jul 6 12:37:09 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 08:37:09 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A51EFF5.3010906@febo.com> A bit further to Ulrich's point... one area where I had some problems using serial/gpib converters in the old days, and I think that at least early versions of the Prologix USB unit suffered from, is talking to multiple instruments off the same GPIB controller. I never found a satisfactory way to accomplish that with anything other than a "real" GPIB card. (But Prologix may have addressed this by now.) I think GPIB applications break down into a couple of categories: (a) simple trigger-then-read from a single instrument, which is what most of us do most of the time, and (b) multi-instrument control. The second case is a lot harder, particularly if you need to use SRQ and other out-of-band commands. Of course, an alternative is to assign one USB or LAN GPIB unit to each instrument, but that gets expensive. John ---- Ulrich Bangert wrote: > Gents, > > as you know I have tried in my utility EZGPIB to supply the user with high > level functions for data communications which keep him away from the low > level tasks of direct communication with the interface. Since EZGPIB not > only supports the Prologix products (USB & LAN) but also GPIB32.DLL based > products (i.e. the complete line of NI GPIB interfaces) a script written in > EZGPIB is independent from a certain manufacturer to a high degree. > > That is the point that I wanted to add to the current discussion. > > Please allow me to note that this independence has its limits that I just > happened to come across. I had tried to run a script for my SR620 counter > which was set to a gate time of 100 s. The script was a quick and dirty one > and set the timeout for GPIB communications to 120 s so that there was > enough time for the counter to answer, even if the data was read immediatly > after tze start of a new measurement. This script would not run ok on my > Prologix GPIB-ETHERNET interface although I was sure that is was ok when I > wrote it. > > It took me some time to realize that I was fooling myself: I had written the > script with my NI interface which's DLL allows for some decades of magnitude > of timeouts while the Prologix provide a maximum timeout of 4000 ms. That > means: Some things cannot translated 1:1 between different manufactures. I > changed the script so that the conunter's status byte was read once a second > and the "data valid bit" is detected in the status byte. Then the counter's > result is read. This of course run ok (also on NI hardware). I will include > a warning in the manual of EZGPIB. From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Mon Jul 6 12:55:28 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:55:28 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? Message-ID: <11F21C8F67DE45B1B956BD0F992E59C1@dd09> Hal, The Garmin 16-17 series has a domed lid that's well glued on to a cylindrical base. I sawed off a lid and took the following photo's. The electronic pcb (70 x 35mm) is internally secured by 2 self-tapping screws like the patch antenna plate mounted above. The 8-core cable exits via a sealed "plug" to stop ingress of air/water. The 16HVS has an internal 2.8v button cell. I "liberated" a large quantity of unused 16HVS some months ago. I don't have any idea how old they were - my guess is 2-3 years - but all fired up 100% so I guess the internal batteries were still doing their job ! Regards, Kit VK2LL -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Sunday, 5 July 2009 9:06 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? >>> Anyone else lose an 18x? In case it dies again... Does anybody know how to take one of them apart? The case is hard plastic with no obvious screws. The bottom has a layer of tough non-skid, non-scratch rubber/plastic. I have peeled some of it back (hard work) but I haven't found any screws yet. They may be under the magnets which are either glued in or snap into their holes. >>snip -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Garmin 1 Processor small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 86987 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Mon Jul 6 12:55:28 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (Kit Scally) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 22:55:28 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? Message-ID: James, These are "before" photo's ... I think a Dremmel is the tool of choice ! Kit VK2LL -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Lux, James P Sent: Sunday, 5 July 2009 8:12 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? On 7/4/09 1:49 PM, "Hal Murray" wrote: > > >> I've not attempted to butcher a capsule open to determine the cause - >> this to my mind is bordering on the sacrilegious but if given >> absolution from another TimeNut, I may attempt it and photograph the >> results ... > > What have you got to lose? Is it good for anything else? > > I probably wouldn't bother unless I had a camera that was good enough > to get a nice picture in case I found something interesting. (This > might be a good excuse to get a good camera.) > > How would you open the can? I was thinking of using a file, but > that's likely to setup vibrations which could cause enough damage to > mask the initial problem. Maybe if it was held in a vice. > > Clearly, the tool of choice is a plasma cutter, because you don't get the oxidation you do with the oxyacetylene torch, and it works better on stainless steel anyway. Actually, what about a sharp knife making repeated trips around the edge (think of a tubing cutter). You get a very clean cut. For the old TO-5 type cans, I've chucked the device in a suitable drill press (a lathe would work), and used a utility knife on a suitable rest (e.g. A block of wood). You probably aren't lucky enough to have a round can, though. Or a cutoff wheel or saw blade on a dremel type tool. Both work quite nicely. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: E1938A xtal.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 78617 bytes Desc: not available URL: From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Jul 6 13:12:28 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 06:12:28 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <4A51EFF5.3010906@febo.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/09 5:37 AM, "John Ackermann N8UR" wrote: > > Of course, an alternative is to assign one USB or LAN GPIB unit to each > instrument, but that gets expensive. > Yes, if you're scrounging old test equipment for $100 a copy. If you have chunks of gear that cost $10K each, then $100-200 for individual interfaces might not be a bad thing, especially considering how much new GPIB cables cost. I'd much rather plug and unplug Cat5 network cables from a hub than deal with a stack of 3 or 4 of those GPIB connectors. Now that I think about it, if the LAN-GPIB adapter widgets did PoE, that would be even slicker. From wb6bnq at cox.net Mon Jul 6 13:12:42 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 06:12:42 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50 - crystal failure ? References: Message-ID: <4A51F84A.D2E14310@cox.net> Hi Kit, From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 6 16:54:04 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 16:54:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From sam at canardpc.com Mon Jul 6 17:07:59 2009 From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC]) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 19:07:59 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Damn, that's a big flaw. The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de Mark Sims Envoy??: lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ??: time-nuts at febo.com Objet?: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 17:16:57 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:16:57 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip (or even a free sample of an FRAM chip) to get around the wear issues. I haven't opened my unit, but this is a serious issue as I'm gearing up to write software to make a "poor man's" network analyzer using a frequency synthesizer and a volt meter, switching between them pretty much as fast as possible. Maybe I'll just use that NI card ;-) -Bob On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Samuel D. [x86/CPC] wrote: > Damn, that's a big flaw. > > The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. > > Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la > part de Mark Sims > Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 > ? : time-nuts at febo.com > Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix > GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. > You can select different instruments that way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. > When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor > EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. > My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... > > All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate > wear > leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have > intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that > configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with > address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. > > I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my > MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL > plotter > routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Mon Jul 6 17:40:09 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 18:40:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: I thought FRAM required a refresh cycle like DRAM - or did I get my brain cells scrambled? D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Darlington Sent: 06 July 2009 18:17 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip ... From djl at montana.com Mon Jul 6 18:28:04 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:28:04 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: <910e42c125aa8429e7528c662ffdca37.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> I have used an interface from Softmark. I don't know if multiple interfaces can be applied, but they are USB. There's no local storage, everything is in the host, and I have not timed the use. OTH, they can be bought for about $40US on ebay or straight from the Aussies at softmark. Comes with dll's and an app... Don Robert Darlington > You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip (or even a free > sample of an FRAM chip) to get around the wear issues. I haven't opened > my > unit, but this is a serious issue as I'm gearing up to write software to > make a "poor man's" network analyzer using a frequency synthesizer and a > volt meter, switching between them pretty much as fast as possible. Maybe > I'll just use that NI card ;-) > > -Bob > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:07 AM, Samuel D. [x86/CPC] > wrote: > >> Damn, that's a big flaw. >> >> The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. >> >> Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ >> >> >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De >> la >> part de Mark Sims >> Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 >> ? : time-nuts at febo.com >> Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: >> Prologix >> GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN >> >> >> The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. >> You can select different instruments that way. >> >> Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal >> flaw. >> When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal >> microprocessor >> EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed >> instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be >> toast. >> My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... >> >> All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate >> wear >> leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to >> have >> intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save >> that >> configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death >> with >> address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. >> >> I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with >> my >> MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL >> plotter >> routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. >> >> ---------------------------------------- >> >> >> >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. >> http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 18:40:21 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 12:40:21 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: The chips I used in the past didn't need to get refreshed and they were pin compatible with an eeprom I was using in a PIC circuit with an i2c interface. They were basically identical with the exception that they don't wear out before the sun expands and swallows the earth, and they can be clocked many times faster than the i2c and spi spec. -Bob On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:40 AM, David C. Partridge < david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com> wrote: > I thought FRAM required a refresh cycle like DRAM - or did I get my brain > cells scrambled? > > D. > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Robert Darlington > Sent: 06 July 2009 18:17 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: > AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > You can *probably* replace the EEPROM with an FRAM chip ... > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From support at prologix.biz Mon Jul 6 18:53:16 2009 From: support at prologix.biz (Prologix) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 11:53:16 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> Message-ID: <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> It is pretty straightforward to add a new command to turn on/off automatic saving of configuration parameters in the next firmware update. ETA is a week or two. Please email support at prologix.biz if you like to be notified when the update is available. Firmware updates may be downloaded from http://prologix.biz Thanks for all the feedback! Regards, Abdul Prologix -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Samuel D. [x86/CPC] Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:08 AM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN Damn, that's a big flaw. The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de Mark Sims Envoy??: lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ??: time-nuts at febo.com Objet?: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that way. Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate wear leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with my MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL plotter routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From djl at montana.com Mon Jul 6 19:17:17 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 13:17:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> References: <00f301c9fe5c$50adbee0$f2093ca0$@com> <488BC39F63FC4411B174A84B1842D67C@ABDULNP424> Message-ID: Prologix: Just for ducks, if there is room, there to be a GPIB-address-addressed-parameter storage for, say, 5-6 devices? Don Prologix > > It is pretty straightforward to add a new command to turn on/off automatic > saving of configuration parameters in the next firmware update. > ETA is a week or two. Please email support at prologix.biz if you like to be > notified when the update is available. > > Firmware updates may be downloaded from http://prologix.biz > > Thanks for all the feedback! > > Regards, > Abdul > Prologix > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Samuel D. [x86/CPC] > Sent: Monday, July 06, 2009 10:08 AM > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: > AW:Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > Damn, that's a big flaw. > > The software I'm working on send three "++addr" commands per second. > > Only 4 days @24h/day to reach the limit :-/ > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la > part de Mark Sims Envoy? : lundi 6 juillet 2009 18:54 ? : > time-nuts at febo.com > Objet : [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: > Prologix > GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN > > > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. > You can select different instruments that way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal > flaw. > When you change the ++addr, the device writes the internal microprocessor > EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. > My app could have worn out the chip in under a day... > > All this assumes that Prologix did not implement some sort of elaborate > wear > leveling scheme in their software, but I suspect not. They seem to have > intended one to set up the device to talk to one instrument then save that > configuration in the chip. Dynamically hammering the thing to death with > address changes was not the intention of the ++addr command. > > I wound up implementing a GPIB controller (with Prologix emulator) with > my > MegaDonkey touch screen LCD controller. It even included a HPGL/PCL > plotter > routine to draw instrument plots on the 160x80 LCD. > > ---------------------------------------- > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From cfharris at erols.com Mon Jul 6 20:35:22 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 16:35:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN vs. NI was: AW: Prologix GPIB-USB vs. GPIB-LAN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A52600A.7020405@erols.com> Hi Mark, Mark Sims wrote: > The Prologix adapter has a ++addr command for changing the GPIB address. You can select different instruments that > way. > > Unfortunately, the version I looked seems to have a potentially fatal flaw. When you change the ++addr, the device > writes the internal microprocessor EEPROM. The EEPROM is speced a 1 million write cycles. If you changed > instruments at once a second, in under two weeks the chip could be toast. My app could have worn out the chip in > under a day... Hmmm? This is what Microchip says: The data EEPROM is a high-endurance, byte addressable array that has been optimized for the storage of frequently changing information (eg., program variables or other data that are updated often). When variables in one section change frequently, while variables in another section do not change, it is possible to exceed the total number of write cycles to the EEPROM (Specification D124) without exceeding the total number of write cycles to a single byte (Specifications D120 and D120A). If this is the case, then a refresh of the array must be performed. For this reason, variables that change infrequently (such as constants, IDs, calibration, etc.) should be stored in Flash program memory. It isn't that the EEPROM wears out, but more that it loses the values in adjacent cells... unless you refresh them before 1 million cycles occurs. All that aside, it isn't clear to me that the ++addr even writes to EEPROM. In fact, in the section of my prologix manual where it discusses the use of EEPROM, it specifically says that the EEPROM stores configuration information, and that addr is not configuration information, and must be set as needed. -Chuck Harris From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 03:13:19 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:13:19 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything >>> useful. > >> Battery failure? > > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > periods of time. Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. Many of the GPS OEM boards I have seen has support for RTC battery. Is also used to keep CMOS for waypoints. Cheers, Magnus From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 7 03:49:24 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:49:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson of "Tue, 07 Jul 2009 05:13:19 +0200." <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering > week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea > of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient > hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial > extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every > once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM > space. A byte would suffice. My comment about batteries was thinking of non-rechargable ones. There is no reasonable way to open the unit to replace a battery. What's the lifetime of a rechargeable battery? I guess it doesn't matter much if the capacity decreases a lot as long as the unit can recover when the battery is dead. My model of a GPS receiver is that it uses the time and ephemeris data to predict the frequencies to listen on. It needs to correct for Doppler. That's assuming the position hasn't changed (much). How long is an ephemeris good for? If it's too stale or the RTC has drifted too much then it might as well start cold. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jul 7 03:48:51 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2009 21:48:51 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> Magnus Danielson writes: : Hal Murray wrote: : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? : > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything : >>> useful. : > : >> Battery failure? : > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended : > periods of time. : : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not suitable. Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 or 15 year deep spares requirements... Warner From vk2ihl at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 04:42:32 2009 From: vk2ihl at gmail.com (Pascal Nguyen) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:42:32 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <22ddffe10907062142g3eb2bc2bgb4d4dd151b1d3c@mail.gmail.com> Hi 18X owners I experienced same problem with my fleet of 16HVS (originated from Kit Scally ?). The non functioning GPS is not on Garmin PVT mode, neither NMEA mode !!!. Reconfigured by using SNSRCFG software switch to NMEA or Garmin mode, my 16HVS is back to business. http://www8.garmin.com/support/collection.jsp?product=010-00321-05 Pascal On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 1:48 PM, M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> > Magnus Danielson writes: > : Hal Murray wrote: > : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > : > > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything > : >>> useful. > : > > : >> Battery failure? > : > > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. > Too > : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for > extended > : > periods of time. > : > : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover > : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, > : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting > : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting > : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same > : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. > > Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not > suitable. > > Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long > storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of > course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may > be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 > or 15 year deep spares requirements... > > Warner > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From martyn at ptsyst.com Tue Jul 7 09:56:36 2009 From: martyn at ptsyst.com (Martyn Smith) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:56:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions Message-ID: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Hello, I have been asked a question from a friend and would like to hear what the time-nuts have to say about the M12+ and M12M GPS receivers. His questions were: 1) It would be great if you could outline the broad algorithm and bits of information that go into keeping the 1 pps aligned to UTC. I want to be able to can ensure that we're at least aware of all the subtle effects (such as illustrated in the next question). 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is the 1pps affected in any way? Time-Nuts. Any help on these two questions would be appreciated Steve Jones From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 10:25:07 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 11:25:07 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I don't have a die stock)? Thanks David Partridge From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 7 10:29:38 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 03:29:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: Message from "Martyn Smith" of "Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:56:36 +0200." <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Message-ID: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate > gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections > (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in > particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is > the 1pps affected in any way? Check the data sheet on the unit. It probably has a section describing the leap second stuff. They happen infrequently enough that you can usually get the info by other means. I'm sure the next one will be announced here. GPS works on GPS time. The satellites tell you the offset to UTC. I expect that offset kicks over at the magic time, but I wouldn't be surprised by bugs. Somebody may have data from watching the last time we had one. (I was watching a NMEA unit. It inserted the leap second at midnight GPS time rather than midnight UTC.) The PPS is tied to GPS time. I don't expect any quirks from leap seconds. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 11:32:06 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:32:06 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <20090704230602.C022DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A52BD4F.5020000@rubidium.dyndns.org> <20090706.214851.1573429863.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <4A533236.8080403@rubidium.dyndns.org> M. Warner Losh wrote: > In message: <4A52BD4F.5020000 at rubidium.dyndns.org> > Magnus Danielson writes: > : Hal Murray wrote: > : >>>> Anyone else lose an 18x? > : > > : >>> I lost one a while ago. Similar. It just stopped doing anything > : >>> useful. > : > > : >> Battery failure? > : > > : > I don't think it has a battery inside. That seems like a poor design. Too > : > many reasonable use cases would include sitting in a drawer for extended > : > periods of time. > : > : Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering week-rollover > : issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea of date at all, > : pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient hint, and adjusting > : with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial extention. Then adjusting > : the RTC is not a hard thing to do every once in a while. The same > : problem could also be solved using EEPROM space. A byte would suffice. > > Usually, you're right. There's one case that might make it not > suitable. > > Many contracts require spares for all the important gear. Long > storage times makes storing the last known date ineffective. Of > course in this case "long" is on the order of 9-odd years. This may > be good for many applications, but not necessarily ones that have 10 > or 15 year deep spares requirements... I agree that they are not suitable for that type of application. However, it does not make the battery unsuitable for GPSes as such, which was the point I was trying to make. How and if this detail springs to mind for any particular vendor is the issue. A flakey RTC may be more of a problem than a live one or a dead one. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 11:49:33 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:49:33 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Week 1536 causing problems? In-Reply-To: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090707034925.A1444BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A53364D.7050407@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> Providing an RTC has benefits, especially when considering >> week-rollover issues, since when the receiver wakes up it has no idea >> of date at all, pulling in the RTC time and date is a sufficient >> hint, and adjusting with detailed info from the GPS is a trivial >> extention. Then adjusting the RTC is not a hard thing to do every >> once in a while. The same problem could also be solved using EEPROM >> space. A byte would suffice. > > My comment about batteries was thinking of non-rechargable ones. There is no > reasonable way to open the unit to replace a battery. What's the lifetime of > a rechargeable battery? I guess it doesn't matter much if the capacity > decreases a lot as long as the unit can recover when the battery is dead. > > My model of a GPS receiver is that it uses the time and ephemeris data to > predict the frequencies to listen on. It needs to correct for Doppler. > That's assuming the position hasn't changed (much). > > How long is an ephemeris good for? If it's too stale or the RTC has drifted > too much then it might as well start cold. The ephimeris data could get you pretty good cold start even after a year or two, even if it is probably rated as dated anyway. If you haven't moved significantly since last fix (like different continent) it is enought to start tracking the right set of sats to get going. It takes 15 min to get a full ephimeris for the full constellation, and that only requires one single fix anyway. As soon as you get a fix you get the precission ephimeris anyway, and that is what you use for positioning, so the almenac is just for getting an initial fix. Storing ephimeris and last fix on CMOS SRAM with battery backup gives a head-start, which is more important for positioning GPSes than timing GPSes. Battery isn't meaningless, but maybe just not worth the trouble for some cases. Several GPSes have battery input from external, you could put a lead-cell or whatever there if you want. Cheers, Magnus From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 12:06:58 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:06:58 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting die they > would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I don't have a > die stock)? > > Thanks > David Partridge > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 12:14:46 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:14:46 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: >> 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate >> gps time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections >> (such as on midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? 2.1) in >> particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, and is >> the 1pps affected in any way? > > Check the data sheet on the unit. It probably has a section describing the > leap second stuff. It is rarely beyond slogan level, if even mentioned in the datasheets. The manual rarely says much useful on the subject either. It happends from time to time that receivers freezes on leap seconds only for the stupid reasons it was not tested by the vendor. A simple single sat GPS emulator would have helped to trigger the bug, which is sufficient for timing receivers and should work for position receivers too. > They happen infrequently enough that you can usually get the info by other > means. I'm sure the next one will be announced here. There won't be one next new years even, it just became official yesterday. That was expected. > GPS works on GPS time. The satellites tell you the offset to UTC. I expect > that offset kicks over at the magic time, but I wouldn't be surprised by > bugs. Somebody may have data from watching the last time we had one. (I was > watching a NMEA unit. It inserted the leap second at midnight GPS time > rather than midnight UTC.) OUPS! > The PPS is tied to GPS time. I don't expect any quirks from leap seconds. If only listening to PPS and don't care about the time associated with it, you are safe. GPS time or UTC time should work equally well. I think you should fetch the GPS ICD 200 document and read up on the details in the signal structure on how UTC is represented in relationship to the GPS signal. Then imagine all the bugs there can be. There are (at least) three interpretations of when leap-seconds may be inserted: 1) At the end of every month. 2) At the end of every quarter. 3) At the end of every half-year. GPS is operated under the assumption that case 3 holds. There exist equipment assuming that case 2 holds. The actual definition allows for case 1, making case 3 the primary preference and case 2 the secondary preference. Lovely mess, isn't it? Anyway, if I don't recall it incorrectly (OK lazy to check), the GPS signal actually indicate WHEN then upcomming leap second will occur. This reduces to a up-comming leap second flag out of the GPS OEM board which can trigger pre-maturely execution of leap-second algorithm on the timing receiver, as we have seen in the Z3801A for instance. Cheers, Magnus From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 12:20:01 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:20:01 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> Message-ID: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I > don't have a die stock)? > > Thanks > David Partridge > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 12:57:06 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:57:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge From jltran at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 7 12:59:47 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:59:47 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 5061B Parts Help Message-ID: <6CDF337F4BE94C8B9B96BD561975026D@S0028384766> I have a 5061B that I have resuscitated but it is missing some of the mechanical parts that link the OSC FREQUENCY COARSE adjustment to the 10811. It is not a terrible problem since I can reach the adjustment with a long 'twiddler' but I thought I would try to find or make replacement parts. What I am missing are parts MP1, MP3, H2, MP4, H6, H7, H1, H5 and MP2 as shown on the attached (somewhat poor) scan from the manual, going from the front panel to the 10811. The real problem, I suspect, will be parts MP1, MP2, MP3 and MP4. Might anyone have these parts? Failing that, does anyone have a functioning unit that you can send me some pictures and a description of this portion of the unit? I would like to see what it is supposed to look like before I begin fabrication. Thanks in advance. Joe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 5061B A10 Parts.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 63667 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 13:06:44 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:06:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, A 3/4" pipe thread die will also work. Both NPT and BSP are 14tpi and have approx 1" major diameter. Try taking your bit of pipe to a gas fitter. Clarke sell a multi-die kit for ?35 inc VAT, http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht392-6-piece-pipe-threading-kit Regards, Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 1:20 PM > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for.? What > is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A > thread cutting > > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a > die nut type as I > > don't have a die stock)? > > > > Thanks > > David Partridge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 13:35:06 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:35:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com> <43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> Message-ID: <53949.87.227.52.225.1246973706.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Dave, Check with your local "plumbing"-store. In Sweden the "old inch based pipe thread" lives on, slightly renamed. Se attached .jpg for approximate inside/outside diameters. The pipes are sold in 6m lenghts threaded in both ends. Good luck in your search! -- Bj?rn > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: pipe_dimentions.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 40348 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:46:29 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:46:29 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <414001.98112.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <39B9C8F3AD604C1BA53D21E538DDE23B@APOLLO> I tried a 3/4" BSP but that didn't quite fit. NPT is probably right ... -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: 07 July 2009 14:07 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Hi Dave, A 3/4" pipe thread die will also work. Both NPT and BSP are 14tpi and have approx 1" major diameter. Try taking your bit of pipe to a gas fitter. Clarke sell a multi-die kit for ?35 inc VAT, http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/product/details/cht392-6-piece-pipe-thread ing-kit Regards, Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 1:20 PM > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for.? What is your > application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A > thread cutting > > die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a > die nut type as I > > don't have a die stock)? > > > > Thanks > > David Partridge > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:47:27 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:47:27 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 13:53:50 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:53:50 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO><4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 14:23:42 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO><4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of David C. Partridge Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die is where I got the specification for the thread from. Pipe has O.D. of 1". Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Ok, I will try this from a different angle. 1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 inch" in any dimension, however. It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >> don't have a die stock)? >> >> Thanks >> David Partridge _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 14:32:41 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 10:32:41 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> Message-ID: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Hi Dave, That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > is where I got > the specification for the thread from. > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > Dave From TimeNut at austin.rr.com Tue Jul 7 14:38:35 2009 From: TimeNut at austin.rr.com (Graham / KE9H) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 09:38:35 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> References: <53553338FF6E4D60B40CBE444842F832@Acer> Message-ID: <4A535DEB.6070200@austin.rr.com> Martyn Smith wrote: > Hello, > > I have been asked a question from a friend and would like to hear what > the > time-nuts have to say about the M12+ and M12M GPS receivers. > > His questions were: > > 1) It would be great if you could outline the broad algorithm and bits of > information that go into keeping the 1 pps aligned to UTC. I want to be > able to can ensure that we're at least aware of all the subtle effects > (such > as illustrated in the next question). > > 2) along with the gps time signal, information is broadcast to relate gps > time to utc. whenever there's a step change in these corrections (such > as on > midnight 31/12/2008), how does the unit react? > 2.1) in particular, how quickly does the time code reflect the change, > and is the 1pps affected in any way? > > Time-Nuts. Any help on these two questions would be appreciated > > Steve Jones > > Your friend should download the manual from the Synergy-GPS website. http://www.synergy-gps.com/ Page 114 of the M12+ Timing receiver manual says: LEAP SECOND STATUS MESSAGE (@@Bj) Applicability: M12+ Timing and Positioning Receivers This message polls the receiver for current leap second status information that has been decoded from the Navigation Data message received from the GPS satellites. The data sent back by the receiver provides specific date and time information pertaining to any future leap second addition or subtraction. Leap seconds are occasionally inserted in UTC and generally occur on midnight UTC June 30th or midnight UTC December 31st. The GPS control segment typically notifies GPS users of pending leap second insertions to UTC several weeks before the event. When a leap second is inserted, the time of day will show a value of '60' in the seconds field. When a leap second is removed, the date will roll over at 58 seconds. The 'current UTC offset' will be zero if the receiver is set up to run in GPS time mode instead of UTC. Default mode: Polled Legacy Compatibility: The @@Bj message was used in an identical manner in virtually all Motorola receivers. --- Graham == From didier at cox.net Tue Jul 7 14:45:02 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 09:45:02 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> Chuck, In France, Gas Pipe threads are tappered. However, I do not remember if they follow the Metric or British standard for size... Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:33 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > Hi Dave, > > That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it > is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard > the world over. > > There are some differences, that won't matter in your > application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This > is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered > pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been > all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done > "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: > > > is where I > > got the specification for the thread from. > > > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 14:45:21 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:45:21 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <6F86BDC369DB41DF9F1E5272B866765D@APOLLO> That is known over here as BSP (British Standard Pipe), or more pickily, BSPP (last P=Parallel) aka British Gas), there is also BSPT (T= Taper). I tried a BSP parallel 3/4" (also used for plumbing over here) but it doesn't (quite) fit. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 07 July 2009 15:33 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Hi Dave, That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. -Chuck Harris David C. Partridge wrote: > is where I > got the specification for the thread from. > > Pipe has O.D. of 1". > > Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 7 14:58:43 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:58:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt buy .. another ? In-Reply-To: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Is there another planned Thunderbolt group buy ? -pete From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 14:54:45 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 07:54:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> Message-ID: <1152.12.6.201.234.1246978485.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I think Rigid Metal Electrical Conduit (RMC) uses similar threads to NPT, but are not tapered. I mean the thick stuff, not EMT. -John ========== > Hi Dave, > > That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it is known > as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard the world over. > > There are some differences, that won't matter in your application. In > Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This is apparently the result of > not understanding that tapered pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, > there have been all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done > "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. > > -Chuck Harris > > David C. Partridge wrote: >> is where I >> got >> the specification for the thread from. >> >> Pipe has O.D. of 1". >> >> Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Jul 7 14:56:25 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:56:25 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ or M12M questions In-Reply-To: <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <20090707102940.17061BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A533C36.1030608@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090707.085625.-1760073140.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <4A533C36.1030608 at rubidium.dyndns.org> Magnus Danielson writes: : There are (at least) three interpretations of when leap-seconds may be : inserted: : 1) At the end of every month. This is the ITU standard. It says that leap seconds can be inserted at the end of each month. Almost no gear allows this, and the gear that does doesn't always do it in a sane way. : 2) At the end of every quarter. This is also ITU standard. These are the secondary times. They have never been used. : 3) At the end of every half-year. These are the primary times. : GPS is operated under the assumption that case 3 holds. Why is this the case? The GPS data just tells you which week the next leap second will happen, as well as the last time a leap second happened. How is it the case that you can say that 3 holds? : There exist equipment assuming that case 2 holds. : The actual definition allows for case 1, making case 3 the primary : preference and case 2 the secondary preference. Yes. : Lovely mess, isn't it? Leap seconds are evil and must die. For such a simple thing, there's so much complication that getting leap seconds right can be rather hard. At least there's no leap second this December... : Anyway, if I don't recall it incorrectly (OK lazy to check), the GPS : signal actually indicate WHEN then upcomming leap second will occur. : This reduces to a up-comming leap second flag out of the GPS OEM board : which can trigger pre-maturely execution of leap-second algorithm on the : timing receiver, as we have seen in the Z3801A for instance. You are correct. There's an indication when the next leap second will happen. The Z3801A uses this to turn on a simple 'leap second pending' which causes a leap second to happen at the next leap second opportunity rather than at the week published. The GPS operators turn on next leap second about 4 or 5 months early, which triggers the bug. Warner From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 15:06:42 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:06:42 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> Message-ID: <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> Hi Didier, Gas pipe, as far as I know is always tapered. In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, etc... They use "gas pipe" for hot water heating systems... only they use straight threads, with a jamb nut to squash an O-ring up against the fixture. The nut has a bevel that presses the O-ring into the pipe's threads, and affects a semi-seal. It is a one time affair, and in my experience lasts about two heating seasons before it starts dripping. I guess a benefit is it keeps the room humidity up in the winter... sigh! -Chuck Harris Didier Juges wrote: > Chuck, > > In France, Gas Pipe threads are tappered. However, I do not remember if they > follow the Metric or British standard for size... > > Didier > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:33 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> Hi Dave, >> >> That would 3/4 inch NPT (National Pipe Thread). In the UK it >> is known as "Gas Pipe". As far as I can tell, it is standard >> the world over. >> >> There are some differences, that won't matter in your >> application. In Europe, NPT is frequently not tapered. This >> is apparently the result of not understanding that tapered >> pipe thread is self sealing. As a result, there have been >> all sorts of o-ring jamb nuts and other insane stuff done >> "over there" to try and form a temporary seal... but I digress. >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> >> is where I >>> got the specification for the thread from. >>> >>> Pipe has O.D. of 1". >>> >>> Dave >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, >> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 16:38:43 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 18:38:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> Message-ID: <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Chuck, Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an O-ring. Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? -- Bj?rn > Hi Didier, > > Gas pipe, as far as I know is always tapered. > > In Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Italy, etc... They use "gas pipe" > for hot water heating systems... only they use straight threads, > with a jamb nut to squash an O-ring up against the fixture. > The nut has a bevel that presses the O-ring into the pipe's threads, > and affects a semi-seal. It is a one time affair, and in my > experience lasts about two heating seasons before it starts > dripping. I guess a benefit is it keeps the room humidity up in the > winter... sigh! > > -Chuck Harris From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 17:42:49 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:42:49 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. regards Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100, David C. Partridge wrote: >I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > is where I got >the specification for the thread from. >Pipe has O.D. of 1". >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Chuck Harris >Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >Ok, I will try this from a different angle. >1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large >machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have >a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. >US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 >inch" in any dimension, however. >It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. >So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? >-Chuck Harris >David C. Partridge wrote: >> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >>> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >>> don't have a die stock)? >>> >>> Thanks >>> David Partridge >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 17:53:55 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. --------------- As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also regularly listed on Ebay. However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. regards Nigel GM8PZR From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 17:56:51 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:56:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I have to fill the Trimble Bullet III into the list of antennas with this thread. Here are some mounting adapters shown: http://www.dpie.com/gps/bullet3.html Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 15:23:42 +0100, David C. Partridge wrote: >I think it is also known as 3/4" NPT for a pipe with a nominal OD of 1.05" >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:54 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >This is the standard Marine antenna mount I believe. >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of David C. Partridge >Sent: 07 July 2009 14:47 >To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > is where I got >the specification for the thread from. >Pipe has O.D. of 1". >Dave >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Chuck Harris >Sent: 07 July 2009 13:57 >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >Ok, I will try this from a different angle. >1" - 14TPI UNS thread like you described are very rare outside of the large >machine industry. They are used for things like bolts on tractors. I have >a pretty big doubt that it has any application in a GPS antenna. >US pipe thread in the sizes 1/2", 3/4", and 1" are 14TPI, they are not "1.0 >inch" in any dimension, however. >It is pretty common to use standard pipe fittings in antenna work. >So how did you arrive at needing a 1"-14TPI UNS die? >-Chuck Harris >David C. Partridge wrote: >> Panasonic VIC-100 GPS antenna ... >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris >> Sent: 07 July 2009 13:07 >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die >> >> I don't recognize the size you are asking for. What is your application? >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> David C. Partridge wrote: >>> Does anyone (preferably in the UK) have 1.0-14UNS-2A thread cutting >>> die they would be prepared to lend me (preferably a die nut type as I >>> don't have a die stock)? >>> >>> Thanks >>> David Partridge From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 7 18:10:46 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:10:46 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As it would appear to an expensive option to purchase the appropriate dies "over here", and as the pipe is soft alloy, I've just reduced its diameter a bit so it's an tight push fit in the antenna base (for now) - though still hoping to find a good solution with spending lots of dosh! Thanks to all Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com Sent: 07 July 2009 18:54 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. --------------- As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also regularly listed on Ebay. However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. regards Nigel GM8PZR _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 7 18:10:59 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 20:10:59 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nigel and the group, this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. regards Arnold On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: >I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from >Raytheon, >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, >HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. >So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully >cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not >compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical Europe. >If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. >I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. >--------------- >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine environment. > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also >regularly listed on Ebay. > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's needs. >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps a >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else that >could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. > >regards > >Nigel >GM8PZR >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 44792 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 18:33:31 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:33:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <55889.87.227.52.225.1246991611.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi, Not Euro-local, but you can find different adapters in Antcoms product range. http://www.antcom.com/products/catalogs.html http://www.antcom.com/documents/catalogs/PeripheralAntennaProducts2.pdf The Trimble Acutime/Palisade antennas also use this thread. -- Bj?rn > In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: > > I have the same problem with several GPS antennas, a Quadrifilar from > Raytheon, > Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with mounting base, > HP 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an adapter. > So this thread is definitively a kind of standard. The thread is fully > cylindrical, all the plumbers tubes do use conical threads which are not > compatible. Very difficult to find proper solution in the metrical > Europe. > If I would find a source of that HP-adapters I would buy 4 units. > I did not check for the correct naming of this thread though. > > > --------------- > As commented previously, this is a common fitting and fairly standard for > GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a marine > environment. > > A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers ranging from > expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, they are also > regularly listed on Ebay. > > However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly available which has a > collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect might meet David's > needs. > They are widely available with a flange fitting, for mounting to flat > surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck rails, but perhaps > a > trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up something else > that > could do the job without the need for threading the end of the pipe. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 18:35:57 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:35:57 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: > Hi Chuck, > > Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses > heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an > O-ring. > > Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? Hi Bjorn, In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and compression fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. The US cast iron radiators all use tapered pipe thread, fin coil is almost always soldered copper, and the steel radiators from Sweden/Denmark/Norway/Switzerland, and Italy, all have straight pipe thread, and use a Jamb nut with an O-ring. Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. I have also run into this system in shut-off valves, manifolds, flow control valves, air eliminators, ... all coming from Europe. Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? -Chuck Harris From w9ddd at tapr.org Tue Jul 7 18:55:41 2009 From: w9ddd at tapr.org (John Koster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:55:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt buy .. another ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From: "Pete Lancashire" > To: time-nuts at febo.com > > Is there another planned Thunderbolt group buy ? > > -pete > Very close to an announcement. Just waiting to resolve one administrative issue and we'll be ready. -- 73, John, W9DDD From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 19:37:29 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 19:37:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <180713.72450.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> How about http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4721 Under $18 adjustable angle. or http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4720 $25 Not slip over the top of a pole but pretty universal. They are available in the UK from ships chandlers. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking > for as well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time,? > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon,? > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from? > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also? > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat? > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a? > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that? > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 20:06:10 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:06:10 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 19:14:01 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: Nigel and the group, this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. --------- Hi Arnold That looks ideal, and good quality too, but I suppose the problem with that and with my similar suggestion for a collar is that pipe sizes vary, so it will either need to be available in different sizes or adapters provided. I don't see any problem with that but it might start to get expensive for home use. When I finally get round to mounting my timing antennas outdoors, so far my little Motorola magnetic patches seem to see an awful lot of sky from indoors, if I can't find a similar adapter that fits I'll probably just use a standard mast clamp arrangement with a 90 degree bracket and fix one of the cheap plastic mounts to that. Not so neat, and a bit more wind resistance, but not too much hassle either:-) regards Nigel From rdarlington at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 20:10:35 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:10:35 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi guys, I'm using a piece of 1/2" PVC pipe with my Panasonic gps antenna on top. The weight and friction of the cable below it will pretty much prevent it from lifting off the pipe, probably even in a hurricane. I didn't even bother with silicone sealant because the threaded part overlaps by a good inch over the outside of the pipe. -Bob On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:06 PM, wrote: > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 19:14:01 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: > > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as well. > > > --------- > Hi Arnold > > That looks ideal, and good quality too, but I suppose the problem with > that and with my similar suggestion for a collar is that pipe sizes vary, > so > it will either need to be available in different sizes or adapters > provided. > I don't see any problem with that but it might start to get expensive for > home use. > > When I finally get round to mounting my timing antennas outdoors, so far my > little Motorola magnetic patches seem to see an awful lot of sky from > indoors, if I can't find a similar adapter that fits I'll probably just use > a > standard mast clamp arrangement with a 90 degree bracket and fix one of the > cheap plastic mounts to that. > > Not so neat, and a bit more wind resistance, but not too much hassle > either:-) > > regards > > Nigel > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 20:13:39 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:13:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Photo attached Robert G8RPI --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking > for as well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time,? > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon,? > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from? > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also? > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat? > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a? > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that? > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 4705.jpg Type: image/pjpeg Size: 12691 bytes Desc: not available URL: From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 20:13:58 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:13:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <659299.24810.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, I was curious that BSP did not fit. I just grabbed some hardware to try. A 3/4 BSP blank just fitted a Trimble pallisade but not the female end of a Shakespeare short mast. The trimble spec says 1-14TPI or 3/4NPT. It is looser on the shakespeare thread (1-14). I guess it has a thread cut for either and your antenna it 1-14 only. A 3/4-BSPT might fit but a marine mount might be best. I whish I still had access to the CNC lathe at my last employers. It would only take a few minutes to knock some up from 30mm hex bar! --- On Tue, 7/7/09, David C. Partridge wrote: > From: David C. Partridge > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > As it would appear to an expensive > option to purchase the appropriate dies > "over here", and as the pipe is soft alloy, I've just > reduced its diameter a > bit so it's an tight push fit in the antenna base (for now) > - though still > hoping to find a good solution with spending lots of dosh! > > Thanks to all > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of GandalfG8 at aol.com > Sent: 07 July 2009 18:54 > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight Time, > Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > I have? the same problem with several GPS antennas, a > Quadrifilar from > Raytheon, Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, HP > 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do contain an > adapter. > So this? thread is definitively a kind of standard. > The thread is fully > cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use conical > threads which are not > compatible.? Very difficult to find proper solution in > the metrical Europe. > If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I would > buy 4 units. > I did not check for? the correct naming of this thread > though. > > > --------------- > As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in a > marine > environment. > > A variety of adaptors is available from marine suppliers > ranging from > expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper plastic, > they are also > regularly listed on Ebay. > > However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat > surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a > trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw up > something else > that could do the job without the need for threading the > end of the pipe. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 20:31:37 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:31:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1206.12.6.201.210.1246998697.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I just talked to these folks: http://www.sealconusa.com/strainrelief/adapter_ny/af_2516_bk.html They sell adapters of all kinds. The designation for conduit (electrical, w/o taper) threads (= 3/4" NPT) is PG-21. As I posted earlier, the tapered threads are used for plumbing, the straight threads are used for rigid electrical conduit. So what you want is an adapter from Male PG-21 to your choice. -John ============= From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 7 20:38:36 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:38:36 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 07/07/2009 21:14:33 GMT Daylight Time, robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk writes: Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Now that is very nice, and at a nice price too, well worth making the effort to find a pipe to fit the adapter rather than vice versa:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 7 20:49:58 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:49:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! -John ============ From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 7 21:05:09 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:05:09 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <76e66aadfa9e8b96b1b8252fb3ffb66b.squirrel@petelancashire.com> or next month if DD-MM-YY. Or if refreshments are included celebrate both days ... -pete > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 7 21:08:45 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 21:08:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: <346811.12910.qm@web27106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It's also on ebay (USA) for less! Searching ebay (UK) category Vehicle Parts & Accessories > Boats Parts & Accessories > Accessories for antenna. This brings up various options. Boat people seem to be charged a lot for some basic stuff! Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 7/7/09, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: > From: GandalfG8 at aol.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 9:38 PM > > In a message dated 07/07/2009 21:14:33 GMT Daylight > Time,? > robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk > writes: > > Try? Shakespeare? 4705 > http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 > 1" pipe? slip-over to 1"-14tpi > > > Now that is very nice, and at a nice price too, well worth > making the? > effort to find a pipe to fit the adapter rather than vice > versa:-) > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From pe1rks at xs4all.nl Tue Jul 7 21:30:49 2009 From: pe1rks at xs4all.nl (S. Nestra) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:30:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Yes! it will, Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. Stijn > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Tue Jul 7 21:38:52 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:38:52 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> Message-ID: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: >> Hi Chuck, >> >> Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses >> heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an >> O-ring. >> >> Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? > > Hi Bjorn, > > In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned > cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or > steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. Your description does not enlighten me... there are all sorts of radiators available here. > Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and > compression > fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. PEX tubing has been "certified", but Prisol tubing (ie soft bendable Cu with plastic "coating") is much more common here. Cu tube joints are made with "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring". > Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. > -Chuck Harris -- Bj?rn From dwilson at linkline.com Tue Jul 7 21:55:35 2009 From: dwilson at linkline.com (Doug Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 14:55:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Date Problem Message-ID: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> My units have all begun displaying the wrong date. A Symmetricom Field Sevice Bulletin describes the problem but does not have a solution. Does anyone in this group have the knowledge and experience to assist me in modifying the firmware to correct this problem. These are beautiful little rack mount receivers and I would like to fix them rather than relagate them to the junk pile. It needs the date fixed because I use the IRIG output to record on telemetry tapes. The URL for the Service Bulletin is http://www.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/ttm/fsb/098%2D50620%2D011.pdf I have a large electronic lab and could possibly assist in the investigation/fix. Doug Wilson Redlands, California From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 7 22:59:11 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:59:11 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Date Problem In-Reply-To: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> References: <37A32F2528A14D82BBFDEBA28F9AF990@xpmaster> Message-ID: <4A53D33F.9080709@rubidium.dyndns.org> Doug Wilson wrote: > My units have all begun displaying the wrong date. A Symmetricom Field Sevice Bulletin describes the problem but does not have a solution. > Does anyone in this group have the knowledge and experience to assist me in modifying the firmware to correct this problem. These are beautiful little rack mount receivers and I would like to fix them > rather than relagate them to the junk pile. It needs the date fixed because I use the IRIG output to record on telemetry tapes. > The URL for the Service Bulletin is http://www.symmetricom.com/media/files/support/ttm/fsb/098%2D50620%2D011.pdf > I have a large electronic lab and could possibly assist in the investigation/fix. There should be firmware available, as hinted in the Service Bulletin. A few users have already been provided with firmware, but you need to contact Symmetricom. As for the actual fix, it is not that big modification, but that assumes you have the source and means to compile it. Symmetricom has all that. If you go back in time you will find an email-thread on this particular issue. Cheers, Magnus From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 7 23:07:52 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2009 19:07:52 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> Hi Bjorn, >> Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > >> Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than > enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to leak" quality > must be a US craftmanship problem. Nope! I'm the US craftsman using European plumbing parts, as instructed by the manufacturers. But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? -Chuck Harris From Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr Tue Jul 7 23:18:50 2009 From: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr (Jean-Louis Oneto) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 23:18:50 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trak 8810 GPS station (Rb GPSDO) Message-ID: Hello, I'm looking for information about a GPSDO built by Trak Systems sometime around 1990 under the reference 8810 which include a Magnavox MX 4200 GPS unit and an Efratom Rubidium Oscillator FRS-C, 10 MHz, Part no. 814-100-1, S/N 1049, Date code 8649. I found the manual for the Efratom FRS oscillators, even if this part number doesn't fit the part numbering given in the manual. I have more problem with the GPS receiver. Till now I only found the NMEA proprietary sentences descriptions. I'm not sure if it will pass the GPS week rollover (aka y2k bug), since the unit was out broken since a long time. And I found strictly no information on the Trak 8810 itself. Every piece of information will be very welcome! Thanks in advance, Jean-Louis Oneto Grasse - France e-mail: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr From dwilson at linkline.com Tue Jul 7 23:38:51 2009 From: dwilson at linkline.com (Doug Wilson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 16:38:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9390-52054 Manual Needed (PDF) Message-ID: <67D5DC31CD6E4565B364BE1A42C65DCD@xpmaster> Some time ago someone indicated that they had the manual in a file for this unit (Datum 9390-52054). If it is still around could you please email it to me (3MB) file size is O.K. Doug Wilson (dwilson at linkline.com) From Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr Wed Jul 8 00:07:07 2009 From: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr (Jean-Louis Oneto) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 00:07:07 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <76e66aadfa9e8b96b1b8252fb3ffb66b.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <2DF12E1DC8F14907B2A4DA32A3A52879@pcreopt> And if paying with timezones that can even be at least 48 celebrations... I'm not sure I will still be able to count the seconds after that! Jean-Louis Oneto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Lancashire" To: ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 9:05 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trivia > or next month if DD-MM-YY. Or if refreshments are included > celebrate both days ... > > -pete > > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >> -John >> >> ============ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 8 00:20:12 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 02:20:12 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> S. Nestra wrote: > Yes! it will, > > Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. Cheers, Magnus > > Stijn > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >> -John >> >> ============ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From gwinn at raytheon.com Wed Jul 8 00:21:26 2009 From: gwinn at raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 20:21:26 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 07/07/2009 05:38:52 PM: > From: > > bg at lysator.liu.se > > To: > > "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" nuts at febo.com> > > Date: > > 07/07/2009 05:40 PM > > Subject: > > [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die > > Sent by: > > time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > > bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: > >> Hi Chuck, > >> > >> Been living in Sweden my whole life. And almost exclusivly in houses > >> heated by circulating hot water through radiators. I have yet to spot an > >> O-ring. > >> > >> Where in Sweden did you see this strange system? > > > > Hi Bjorn, > > > > In the US, hydronic heat comes in a couple of flavors: The old fashioned > > cast iron radiators, fin/coil baseboard radiators, radiant baseboard, or > > steel radiators/towel warmers imported from the Europe. > > Your description does not enlighten me... there are all sorts > of radiators available here. > > > Most of the European systems are geared towards PEX tubing, and > > compression > > fittings... and untapered pipe thread with jamb nuts and O-rings. > > PEX tubing has been "certified", but Prisol tubing (ie soft bendable Cu > with plastic "coating") is much more common here. Cu tube joints are made > with "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring". > > > Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > > > Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more than > enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to > leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One screws them together until they bottom. Joe Gwinn From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 8 00:43:43 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:43:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Conduit thread RE: OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Joseph M Gwinn > Sent: Tuesday, July 07, 2009 5:21 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Su > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - > straight threads are for mechanical connections only. For > connections that must also contain fluids under pressure, one > uses taper threads such as the ubiquitous NPT. Over the > decades, I have lived in many houses, including my current > house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron > radiators, and I have never had to redo a radiator > connection. I've never had a leak, and most of these systems > were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there > is an installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe > he was an out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical > conduit for pipe. > Rigid conduit uses tapered NPT threads. NEC 344.28 Reaming and Threading. All cut ends shall be reamed or otherwise finished to remove rough edges. Where conduit is threaded in the field, a standard cutting die with a 1 in 16 taper (3/4 in taper per foot) shall be used. BUT, IMC (a thinner wall conduit) is tapered at 3/8"/ft (1 in 32, half the taper of standard heavy wall rigid conduit) because the wall is about half the thickness). And, of course, since the female thread in the fitting is almost certainly tapered at the 1 in 16, the half taper IMC will thread in and tighten up with a bit less thread engagement. Straight threads are found on bolts, and on the threaded part of compression fittings (the kind with a crushable ferrule around the tube), and on some gas fittings (where there's an O-ring or other gasket for sealing). I'm not sure if a gas fitting like a CGA-580 (which has a NGO-RH thread) is tapered, even without a gasket. Actually, there's a bewildering variety of standard threads, tapered and not. Some tapered threads are designed to seal without a filler, some with. Not only that but the actual thread shape is different (55 vs 60 degrees). Fortunately, for the average hacker, if it's close, and the metal is malleable,.... > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic > systems, not domestic water or heating systems, and the > mating parts have correctly designed pockets to hold the > O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One screws them > together until they bottom. > > Joe Gwinn > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 8 00:48:06 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2009 17:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <1890.12.6.201.122.1247014086.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I agree with you, but would note that iron NPT threaded joints that leak a bit, will often self seal due to rust, given time. -John ============= > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads > are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also > contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the > ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including > my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, > and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a > leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an > installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an > out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. > > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not > domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly > designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One > screws them together until they bottom. > > Joe Gwinn > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 02:36:57 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 12:36:57 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US isn't it? Jim 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > S. Nestra wrote: > >> Yes! it will, >> >> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. >> > > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > >> Stijn >> >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >>> >>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >>> >>> -John >>> >>> ============ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 02:59:10 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 14:59:10 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well :) 73, Steve 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. > > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US isn't > it? > > Jim > > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > >> S. Nestra wrote: >> >>> Yes! it will, >>> >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 07-08-09. >>> >> >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. >> >> Cheers, >> Magnus >> >> >> >>> Stijn >>> >>> ?AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ?ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >>>> >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >>>> >>>> -John >>>> >>>> ============ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 8 04:14:02 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 00:14:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com> <1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com> <56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <4A541D0A.8070703@erols.com> Joseph M Gwinn wrote: > > The relevant US pipe-thread standards are quite clear - straight threads > are for mechanical connections only. For connections that must also > contain fluids under pressure, one uses taper threads such as the > ubiquitous NPT. Over the decades, I have lived in many houses, including > my current house, with circulating hot water heat and cast iron radiators, > and I have never had to redo a radiator connection. I've never had a > leak, and most of these systems were old when I bought the house. > > If you have straight pipe threads going into radiators, there is an > installer who should be made to re-do the job. Maybe he was an > out-of-work electrician, and used rigid electrical conduit for pipe. Sorry, but the European radiators, manifolds, fittings and valves that are coming into the US for use in hydronic heating systems are all straight pipe thread with O-rings and jamb nuts, and that is the reason for my mentioning of that fact. They are exactly as I described them. > > Straight threads and O rings are seen only in hydraulic systems, not > domestic water or heating systems, and the mating parts have correctly > designed pockets to hold the O-rings. And they do not use jam nuts. One > screws them together until they bottom. I understand that, tell that to the European heating manufacturers. Time to get back to time. -Chuck Harris From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 08:10:53 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:10:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <279483.72328.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <77AEA020D3A14970A869EDDC977F736D@APOLLO> Perfect - now to find one! D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: 07 July 2009 21:14 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die Try Shakespeare 4705 http://shakespeare-marine.com/mountshow.asp?findmount=4705 1" pipe slip-over to 1"-14tpi Photo attached Robert G8RPI --- On Tue, 7/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 1" 14 tpi UNS die > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Date: Tuesday, 7 July, 2009, 7:10 PM > Nigel and the group, > > this very useful adapter is what is needed and I am looking for as > well. > > regards > Arnold > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2009 13:53:55 EDT, GandalfG8 at aol.com > wrote: > > > > >In a message dated 07/07/2009 18:43:55 GMT Daylight > Time, > >Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de > writes: > > >I have? the same problem with several GPS > antennas, a Quadrifilar from > >Raytheon, > >Irvine 2640NW with mounting base, HP 58532A with > mounting base, > >HP? 58504Ac. etc. Some complete boxes from HP do > contain an adapter. > >So this? thread is definitively a kind of > standard. The thread is fully > >cylindrical,? all the plumbers tubes do use > conical threads which are not > >compatible.? Very difficult to find proper > solution in the metrical Europe. > >If I would? find a source of that HP-adapters I > would buy 4 units. > >I did not check for? the correct naming of this > thread though. > > > >--------------- > >As commented previously, this is a common fitting and > fairly standard? for > >GPS antennas and some other antenna kit, especially in > a marine? environment. > > > >A variety of adaptors is available from marine > suppliers ranging from > >expensive stainless steel fittings to much cheaper > plastic, they are also > >regularly listed on Ebay. > > > >However, there doesn't seem to be anything readilly > available? which has a > >collar to sit over a plain pipe, which I suspect > might? meet David's needs. > >They are widely available with a flange fitting, for > mounting to flat > >surfaces, or rail fittings to attach to horizontal deck > rails, but perhaps a > >trawl through some of the marine suppliers might throw > up something else that > >could do the job without the need for threading the end > of the pipe. > > > >regards > > > >Nigel > >GM8PZR > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Jul 8 08:22:32 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 04:22:32 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die Message-ID: In a message dated 08/07/2009 00:08:41 GMT Daylight Time, cfharris at erols.com writes: But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? ------------------- I think that's because you're talking about different things. When Bjorn comments... "Cu tube joints are madewith "nut", "support cylinder" and a "squeeze ring"....... He's referring to a standard compression fitting, with the brass or copper "squeeze ring", more usually called an olive or compression ring, having tapered ends and being compressed around and into the copper pipe surface as the nut is tightened. Other than soldered joints, which are also still used, this is the standard fitting here for gas or water in domestic installations. When fitted properly, and they're very easily fitted, these shouldn't leak at all. If they have a downside it's that same thing that makes them work so well to start with, the ring bedding itself into the outer of the copper pipe, especially as there can be a tendency to overtighten despite warnings to the contrary. For the ring to be fully effective it needs to be installed over a "fresh" section of pipe. When working on existing systems, particularly those that have been installed for some time, it may be necessary to replace lengths of pipe, or at least cut back and insert a fresh short length in order to remove ends where the fittings have been previously installed I have also never seen an O-ring with jamb nut in a domestic heating system and don't think steel pipe has been used here in regular domestic heating systems since "central heating" took off in the 1960s/70s. Steel pipe, often it seems referred to as "gas barrel" even if not being used for gas, is still common in industrial situations but copper is the norm for gas and water in domestic situations with pipe sizes varying to suit flow and equipment fittings. Domestic radiator type water heating systems traditionally make use of 25mm and 15mm copper pipe but systems using plastic sheathed 10mm copper pipe are becoming more common, with the sheath being cut back to allow entry into the fitting.. As compression fittings are very much the norm here I'm surprised that you don't seem to have encountered them in the US. Is it possible that what is being supplied to the US from Europe is more dictated by US plumbing practices and regulations than by what we'd normally prefer to use ourselves?:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR From rk at timing-consultants.com Wed Jul 8 08:58:45 2009 From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 09:58:45 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> References: <0F13F5579D564E28801B9A7A18D63B79@APOLLO> <4A533A62.30507@erols.com><43B05805E01D4114A3C7F6D79D216969@APOLLO> <4A534622.5080808@erols.com> <4A535C89.2010301@erols.com><1D05162F145A46F7BB2D354E45E596A4@d400> <4A536482.1050601@erols.com> <54403.87.227.52.225.1246984723.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53958D.9050007@erols.com><56891.87.227.52.225.1247002732.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> <4A53D548.50706@erols.com> Message-ID: <41072E99A9CE4D9B9676D79D870B3349@robinHP> FWIW they use PTFE tape on non-soldered joints over here in UK. Rob Kimberley -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 08 July 2009 00:08 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die Hi Bjorn, >> Runtal, Cordivari, Wirsbro and Wesaunard are examples I have run into. > > It is actually Wirsbo... ;-) The others are unknown to me. > >> Do you install and repair systems? Or just live with them? > > I do minor changes to the house system. And I have accumulated more > than enough radiator heating seasons to know your "two seasons to > leak" quality must be a US craftmanship problem. Nope! I'm the US craftsman using European plumbing parts, as instructed by the manufacturers. But I'm puzzled! First you tell me you have never seen an O-ring with a jamb nut in a heating system, and then you tell me that your system, presumably without any such O-ring seals, doesn't leak??? -Chuck Harris _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk Wed Jul 8 09:18:15 2009 From: james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk (James R Miller) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 09:18:15 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia Message-ID: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. Perhaps 09-09-09 09:09:09 is non-divisive ... With best wishes. -- ========================================================================== James R Miller WWW/PGP: http://www.jrmiller.demon.co.uk/ Cambridge, England Stardate: 2009 Jul 08 [Wed] 0916 utc ========================================================================== From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 09:36:33 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:36:33 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Well I think more countries drive on the right than left, so we can't complain. On the other hand they share the imperial measuring system only with Burma and Liberia. Good company there... 2009/7/8 Steve Rooke > Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well > :) > > 73, > Steve > > 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. > > > > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US > isn't > > it? > > > > Jim > > > > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson > > > >> S. Nestra wrote: > >> > >>> Yes! it will, > >>> > >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 > 07-08-09. > >>> > >> > >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. > >> > >> Cheers, > >> Magnus > >> > >> > >> > >>> Stijn > >>> > >>> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS > YEAR, > >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > >>>> > >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > >>>> > >>>> -John > >>>> > >>>> ============ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > A man with one clock knows what time it is; > A man with two clocks is never quite sure. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From marc at msys.ch Wed Jul 8 09:38:02 2009 From: marc at msys.ch (Marc Balmer) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:38:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS > YEAR, > THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 > > THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: 04:05:06 07.08.09 (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) let's not forget about september 2010: 05:06:07 08.09.10 and of course october 2011: 06:07:08 09.10.11 and november 2012: 07:08:09 10.11.12 see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much more funny times/dates ;) - Marc > > -John > > ============ > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From marc at msys.ch Wed Jul 8 09:39:41 2009 From: marc at msys.ch (Marc Balmer) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:39:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1DC818A0-7A31-435C-9D28-86E42F682605@msys.ch> > Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as > well :) actually they drive on the right side, even if that's not the right side. 0x49, Marc HB9SSB From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 10:30:45 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 22:30:45 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <50907.145.78.21.5.1247002249.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4A53E63C.9020800@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80907071959x22c1cfd9l897ce7f645a474ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907080330n6302e54bud2cdddc1433a1d3@mail.gmail.com> But you get short measured there. Go in a bar and ask for a pint and you only get 16oz, 4 short of a real pint :) And are they all left-handed there as otherwise how do you defend yourself while passing on the right :) 73, Steve 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : > Well I think more countries drive on the right than left, so we can't > complain. > > On the other hand they share the imperial measuring system only with Burma > and Liberia. > > Good company there... > > > 2009/7/8 Steve Rooke > >> Yeh, and for some reason they drive on the wrong side of the road as well >> :) >> >> 73, >> Steve >> >> 2009/7/8 Jim Palfreyman : >> > 7th of August is the date to celebrate in Australia too. >> > >> > In fact I think that weird MM-DD-YY format is peculiar to only the US >> isn't >> > it? >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > 2009/7/8 Magnus Danielson >> > >> >> S. Nestra wrote: >> >> >> >>> Yes! it will, >> >>> >> >>> Overhere in Europe just about a month later it will be 04:05:06 >> 07-08-09. >> >>> >> >> >> >> I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Magnus >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> Stijn >> >>> >> >>> ?AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ?ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS >> YEAR, >> >>>> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >>>> >> >>>> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! >> >>>> >> >>>> -John >> >>>> >> >>>> ============ >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >> >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >>>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >>> To unsubscribe, go to >> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >> To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW >> A man with one clock knows what time it is; >> A man with two clocks is never quite sure. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Jul 8 10:46:41 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 12:46:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A547911.1000902@rubidium.dyndns.org> Marc Balmer wrote: > > Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: > > 04:05:06 07.08.09 > > (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) > > let's not forget about september 2010: > > 05:06:07 08.09.10 > > and of course october 2011: > > 06:07:08 09.10.11 > > and november 2012: > > 07:08:09 10.11.12 > > see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much more > funny times/dates ;) Sane dates is YYYY-MM-DD as we use here... extends nicely with HH:MM:SS for time of day and ,SSSSSSSSSSS for all those extra digits needed. :) Cheers, Magnus From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 10:50:44 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 11:50:44 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon Message-ID: If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking that I should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? Thanks Dave From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 8 11:00:20 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 04:00:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <1237.12.6.201.210.1246999798.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A547C44.8070300@sonic.net> Marc Balmer wrote: > > Am 07.07.2009 um 22:49 schrieb J. Forster: > >> AT 5 MINUTES AND 6 SECONDS AFTER 4 A.M., ON THE 8TH OF JULY, THIS >> YEAR, >> THE TIME AND DATE WILL BE: 04:05:06 07-08-09 >> >> THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN AGAIN UNTIL THE YEAR 3009!!! > > > pretty wrong. in europe we will have in about one month: > > 04:05:06 07.08.09 > > (7th of august, five mins and 6 seconds after 4o clock in the morning.) > > let's not forget about september 2010: > > 05:06:07 08.09.10 > > and of course october 2011: > > 06:07:08 09.10.11 > > and november 2012: > > 07:08:09 10.11.12 > > see what you can get from a sane date scheme like DD.MM.YY? much > more funny times/dates ;) > > - Marc > > The sanity of the scheme doesn't much change the ability to celebrate these trivia. In fact, the US scheme gives one extra day to celebrate per century. Your sane scheme can't do 09:10:11 12/13/14 but we can. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Jul 8 11:37:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 23:37:49 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> David C. Partridge wrote: > If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking that I > should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? > > Thanks > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > No, more like 10/(.66*3E8)= 10/2E8 = 50ns. Bruce From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 12:02:30 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 13:02:30 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon In-Reply-To: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> References: <4A54850D.10102@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <7C7A0B856816429188445059D63BAF3B@APOLLO> Doh! I got my sums upside down! Thanks for the sanity check. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: 08 July 2009 12:38 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Setting PPS offset in TBoltMon David C. Partridge wrote: > If I use 10 mtrs (33 ft) of RG58 cable would I be right in thinking > that I should set the PPS offset to -2.2e-08 (assuming progation speed of 0.66)? > > Thanks > Dave > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > No, more like 10/(.66*3E8)= 10/2E8 = 50ns. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 13:46:07 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate Message-ID: <1231b6a80907080646w6d074db1tb8c8b821782a57a6@mail.gmail.com> Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP server and it reported "Number of Satellites Tracked 892"! Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since when has NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into space, it would be quite a log-jam up there :-) Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's something to do with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make it work and that is not supported any more. Anyone know if there is a firmware update for these devices so that it can work with SUN Java? 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 8 14:03:22 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 10:03:22 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A54A72A.6030904@erols.com> Hi Nigel, > He's referring to a standard compression fitting, with the brass or copper > "squeeze ring", more usually called an olive or compression ring, having > tapered ends and being compressed around and into the copper pipe surface as > the nut is tightened. > Other than soldered joints, which are also still used, this is the > standard fitting here for gas or water in domestic installations. > > When fitted properly, and they're very easily fitted, these shouldn't leak > at all. We use them here in the US, for small water fittings... such as refrigerator ice makers, and toilet tank fills. They work just fine. I always put a little non hardening pipe compound under the ring to prevent seepage that can occur on poorly made tubing that has mandrel marks left over from drawing the tubing... I never used to have to do that, but the Chinese and Mexican manufactured toilet fill tubes we get these days are awful. ... > I have also never seen an O-ring with jamb nut in a domestic heating > system and don't think steel pipe has been used here in regular domestic heating > systems since "central heating" took off in the 1960s/70s. Good! The UK must be using more sane methods. I haven't been talking about steel pipe, I have been talking of straight pipe thread on fittings, such as shut-off valves on radiators, and fittings on manifolds. > Steel pipe, often it seems referred to as "gas barrel" even if not being > used for gas, is still common in industrial situations but copper is the > norm for gas and water in domestic situations with pipe sizes varying to suit > flow and equipment fittings. Steel pipe is mandated for gas systems in many areas of the US. I am in one such area. It works fine, and is 100% reliable. Copper tubing is only used by propane installers, and they form their own codes. Compression fittings seem to be universally outlawed for gas, though. Formed flare fittings are the norm on copper gas tubing. ... > As compression fittings are very much the norm here I'm surprised that you > don't seem to have encountered them in the US. As I said earlier, I have encountered plenty compression fittings. They are not what I have been discussing. > Is it possible that what is being supplied to the US from Europe is more > dictated by US plumbing practices and regulations than by what we'd normally > prefer to use ourselves?:-) No, these are bog-standard parts ordered directly from the manufacturer's catalogs, and imported directly into the US. There was no US code interference in these transactions. The work was done as directed by the manufacturers. You see, I happened to think the Europeans are the masters of the universe when it comes to hydronic heat. It is rare to find hydronic heating in the US because our climate requires both heating and cooling in most areas, and it is much cheaper to install a single forced air system that does both the heating and cooling than it is to install two separate systems. In the US, hot water and steam heating systems are generally found only in houses that were built before central air conditioning was common. It's been fun, but we have probably taken a long enough vacation from time and frequency issues. I think it is past time to wind this subject down. -Chuck Harris From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Jul 8 14:24:34 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 08:24:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> References: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090708.082434.915320532.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <189c907750%james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk> James R Miller writes: : : > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. : : Perhaps 09-09-09 09:09:09 is non-divisive ... But is that 2009-09-09 09:09:09 or 09-09-2009 09:09:09. The difference matters you know :) Warner From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 8 14:37:46 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 07:37:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] OT Euro/US plumbing was 14 tpi UNS die In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1064.12.6.201.124.1247063866.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Soldered copper is certainly not allowed for gas. There are special, flexible copper and fitting systems are, but not everywhere. -John ========= [snip] > Steel pipe, often it seems referred to as "gas barrel" even if not being > used for gas, is still common in industrial situations but copper is the > norm for gas and water in domestic situations with pipe sizes varying to > suit flow and equipment fittings. [snip] From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 8 14:41:16 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 15:41:16 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Trivia In-Reply-To: <20090708.082434.915320532.imp@bsdimp.com> References: <189c907750%james@jrmiller.demon.co.uk> <20090708.082434.915320532.imp@bsdimp.com> Message-ID: <5C0D9DA424D64C11974837F33F3CD324@APOLLO> Now that is a totally palindromic value! D. -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of M. Warner Losh Sent: 08 July 2009 15:25 To: time-nuts at febo.com; james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trivia In message: <189c907750%james at jrmiller.demon.co.uk> James R Miller writes: : : > I'll wait to 2009-08-07T06:05:04.03Z. : : Perhaps 09-09-09 09:09:09 is non-divisive ... But is that 2009-09-09 09:09:09 or 09-09-2009 09:09:09. The difference matters you know :) Warner _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jra at febo.com Wed Jul 8 15:09:28 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 11:09:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Administrivia: Keep it on topic, please! Message-ID: <4A54B6A8.6010005@febo.com> We have had several lengthy discussions lately that have ended up totally removed from precision time and frequency measurement (plumbing, anyone?). While a lot of us may find these threads interesting, please keep in mind that the list has over 800 subscribers now, and that time-nuts is advertised as "a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics." So, I ask everyone to use good judgment, remember the size of the audience, and try to keep postings at least somewhat on topic. Thanks, John From bg at lysator.liu.se Wed Jul 8 16:31:21 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:31:21 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907080646w6d074db1tb8c8b821782a57a6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80907080646w6d074db1tb8c8b821782a57a6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60191.87.227.52.225.1247070681.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Steve, > Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP server and it > reported "Number of Satellites Tracked 892"! Quite apart from it only > being able to track 8 birds, since when has NASA suddenly become that > busy sending sats into space, it would be quite a log-jam up there :-) Is NASA involved in GPS launches? I thought the US Airforce took care of that. -- Bj?rn From bg at lysator.liu.se Wed Jul 8 16:54:06 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:54:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Administrivia: Keep it on topic, please! In-Reply-To: <4A54B6A8.6010005@febo.com> References: <4A54B6A8.6010005@febo.com> Message-ID: <60244.87.227.52.225.1247072046.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> In an effort to move the plumbing topic back to time-nut ground... A few weeks ago I mounted two decent GPS antennas on two separate sites using threaded 2" water pipes. Between antennas and pipe we used SECOs adjustable mount http://www.surveying.com/products/details.asp?prodID=2072-series -- Bj?rn > We have had several lengthy discussions lately that have ended up > totally removed from precision time and frequency measurement (plumbing, > anyone?). > > While a lot of us may find these threads interesting, please keep in > mind that the list has over 800 subscribers now, and that time-nuts is > advertised as "a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise > time and frequency measurement and related topics." > > So, I ask everyone to use good judgment, remember the size of the > audience, and try to keep postings at least somewhat on topic. > > Thanks, > > John > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From iovane at inwind.it Wed Jul 8 17:18:33 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:18:33 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 Message-ID: Hi Steve, for the meaning of jump we are accepting here I would have seen a more ripid rising slope, but....who knows? I would ask you a favour. I would be very pleased to see your Z3805 traces for the week centered approx on July 22 02:30 UT. There will be a total solar eclipse on the Pacific area. No matter that you are not in the eclipse path, I'm collecting any possible kind of data. Would it be possible? Could any other member of the list help with their traces? Thanks, Antonio I8IOV > Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and > then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments > please? > > 73, > Steve From don at k7tsv.com Wed Jul 8 17:23:33 2009 From: don at k7tsv.com (Don Garlick) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:23:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] For Sale HP Z3801A Message-ID: <142801c9fff0$d28e12d0$77aa3870$@com> I have a Z3801A in operating condition. The computer it was connected to lost it's hard drive and I have fallen on hard financial times. So I need to sell the Z3801A and pay some bills. Please reply off list. Thank you don at k7tsv.com From iovane at inwind.it Wed Jul 8 17:27:57 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:27:57 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Dear all, does anybody out there know the orientation of the crystal faces relative to the outer case in a 10811-60111? (The sense of the question is that we are considering building a 3-axis apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based on our tentative modelization, crystals are not requested to work as accelerometers). Antonio I8IOV From iovane at inwind.it Wed Jul 8 17:34:12 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:34:12 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-locked 10811? Message-ID: Has anybody locked to an LPRO a 10811-60111 in place of the LPRO internal crystal? Any advices? Thanks, Antonio I8IOV From analogaficionado at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 17:43:14 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 10:43:14 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <688dcb840907081043y7b6197deie803519ffcaee772@mail.gmail.com> Hi Antonio, Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A service manual. Minimum and maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the other variants of 10811 are all internally constructed the same, I would not expect a difference for the -60111. - Chad. On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > Dear all, > > does anybody out there know the orientation of the crystal faces relative > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > (The sense of the question is that we are considering building a 3-axis > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based on our tentative > modelization, crystals are not requested to work as accelerometers). > > Antonio I8IOV > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 10811A Dimensions.gif Type: image/gif Size: 44031 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iovane at inwind.it Wed Jul 8 18:01:07 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:01:07 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Hi Chad, the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. Thanks. Antonio I8IOV > Hi Antonio, > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A service manual. Minimum and > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the other variants of 10811 are > all internally constructed the same, I would not expect a difference for the > -60111. > > - Chad. > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of the crystal faces relative > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are considering building a 3-axis > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based on our tentative > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work as accelerometers). > > > > Antonio I8IOV From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jul 8 20:43:58 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:43:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Antonio, Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for internal pictures. The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm Robert G8RPI. --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > From: iovane at inwind.it > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > To: "time-nuts" > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > Hi Chad, > > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > > Thanks. > Antonio I8IOV > > > Hi Antonio, > > > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > service manual.? Minimum and > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown.? Since the > other variants of 10811 are > > all internally constructed the same, I would not > expect a difference for the > > -60111. > > > > - Chad. > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > > wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of > the crystal faces relative > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are > considering building a 3-axis > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > on our tentative > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work > as accelerometers). > > > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 22:36:52 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:36:52 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All, Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g sensitivity" does not belong in this group. Thank you. Jim 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > > Hi Antonio, > Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > internal pictures. > The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, > see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > > Robert G8RPI. > > --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > > > From: iovane at inwind.it > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > To: "time-nuts" > > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > > Hi Chad, > > > > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > > as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > > orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > > seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > > take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > > its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > > oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > > > > Thanks. > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > > > > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > > service manual. Minimum and > > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > > other variants of 10811 are > > > all internally constructed the same, I would not > > expect a difference for the > > > -60111. > > > > > > - Chad. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of > > the crystal faces relative > > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are > > considering building a 3-axis > > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > > on our tentative > > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work > > as accelerometers). > > > > > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From richard at karlquist.com Wed Jul 8 23:06:39 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 16:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> Remember that the SC cut is doubly rotated, so the crystallographic axes are tilted relative to plane of the blank. These angles are published in papers on the SC cut and controlled to extremely tight tolerances (a few seconds of arc). However, the 10811 crystal package is free to rotate to any random angle, so the crystallographic orientation of a 10811 crystal would only be consistent if the production line proactively installed them in a certain orientation. I don't remember ever hearing about anyone paying attention to how the crystals were oriented, in all my years of dealing with the 10811. If it were important, knowing how HP did things, the crystal package would be indexed so that the orientation would not be up to the whim of the assembler. Rick Karlquist N6RK From wb6bnq at cox.net Wed Jul 8 23:12:02 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 16:12:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> Jim, I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of the hp oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got a bit out of hand. I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for discussion of topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision in all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same level whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many are here for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others that have gone before them. If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never suggesting what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate for his circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I do not have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. Hmmmm, maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive you "nuts" time and time again. Who would have thought ? Bill....WB6BNQ The point being that Jim Palfreyman wrote: > All, > > Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. > > All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g > sensitivity" does not belong in this group. > > Thank you. > > Jim > > 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > > internal pictures. > > The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, > > see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > > > > Robert G8RPI. > > > > --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > > > > > From: iovane at inwind.it > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > > To: "time-nuts" > > > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > > > Hi Chad, > > > > > > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > > > as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > > > orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > > > seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > > > take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > > > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > > > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > > > its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > > > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > > > oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > > > > > > Thanks. > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > > > > > > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > > > service manual. Minimum and > > > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > > > other variants of 10811 are > > > > all internally constructed the same, I would not > > > expect a difference for the > > > > -60111. > > > > > > > > - Chad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of > > > the crystal faces relative > > > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > > > > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are > > > considering building a 3-axis > > > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > > > on our tentative > > > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work > > > as accelerometers). > > > > > > > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Jul 8 23:33:38 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:33:38 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> Message-ID: <4A552CD2.3010601@xtra.co.nz> Bill In general, for frequencies of around 10MHz and below 2N3904's and 2N3906's work well at least for collector currents < 40mA or so. In some circuits these will even work well to around 100MHz albeit with higher noise and distortion. For higher frequencies faster transistors are usually advisable. The choice of comparator depends on what logic it is intended to drive. With logic supplies as low as 1.8V for some FPGAs and CPLDs its difficult to give a part that suits all applications. If in doubt ask (off line if you prefer) and I'll find a part (or parts) that you can easily obtain that suits your particular application. Bruce WB6BNQ wrote: > Jim, > > I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most > informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of the hp > oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got a bit > out of hand. > > I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for discussion of > topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision in > all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same level > whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many are here > for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others that > have gone before them. > > If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never suggesting > what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate for his > circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I do not > have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. Hmmmm, > maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive you > "nuts" time and time again. > > Who would have thought ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > The point being that > > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > >> All, >> >> Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. >> >> All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g >> sensitivity" does not belong in this group. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Jim >> >> 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson >> >> >>> Hi Antonio, >>> Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for >>> internal pictures. >>> The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, >>> see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm >>> >>> Robert G8RPI. >>> >>> --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: >>> >>> >>>> From: iovane at inwind.it >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation >>>> To: "time-nuts" >>>> Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM >>>> Hi Chad, >>>> >>>> the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, >>>> as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to >>>> orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it >>>> seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't >>>> take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted >>>> (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" >>>> sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on >>>> its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. >>>> So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually >>>> oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> Antonio I8IOV >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Antonio, >>>>> >>>>> Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A >>>>> >>>> service manual. Minimum and >>>> >>>>> maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the >>>>> >>>> other variants of 10811 are >>>> >>>>> all internally constructed the same, I would not >>>>> >>>> expect a difference for the >>>> >>>>> -60111. >>>>> >>>>> - Chad. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it >>>>> >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>> >>>>>> does anybody out there know the orientation of >>>>>> >>>> the crystal faces relative >>>> >>>>>> to the outer case in a 10811-60111? >>>>>> >>>>>> (The sense of the question is that we are >>>>>> >>>> considering building a 3-axis >>>> >>>>>> apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based >>>>>> >>>> on our tentative >>>> >>>>>> modelization, crystals are not requested to work >>>>>> >>>> as accelerometers). >>>> >>>>>> Antonio I8IOV >>>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From masondg44 at comcast.net Thu Jul 9 00:02:02 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:02:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: Message-ID: <41418969074C4323B188056818DBA623@D77M7BF1> > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of the crystal faces > > relative > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are considering building a 3-axis > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based on our tentative > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work as accelerometers). > > > > Antonio I8IOV > Hi Antonio, > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A service manual. Minimum > and > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the other variants of 10811 > are > all internally constructed the same, I would not expect a difference for > the > -60111. > > - Chad. > Speaking of the variants of the 10811- oscillator, does anyone know of a reference that describes or compares the details and differences between all the variations? Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. From jra at febo.com Thu Jul 9 00:05:54 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:05:54 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <41418969074C4323B188056818DBA623@D77M7BF1> References: <41418969074C4323B188056818DBA623@D77M7BF1> Message-ID: <4A553462.8010303@febo.com> I think several of us have an HP document on-line that explains at least a bunch of the various models. My copy is at http://www.febo.com/pages/hp10811/HP10811-Specs.pdf John ---- Dave M said the following on 07/08/2009 08:02 PM: >> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it >> wrote: >> >> > Dear all, >> > >> > does anybody out there know the orientation of the crystal faces > >> relative >> > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? >> > >> > (The sense of the question is that we are considering building a 3-axis >> > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based on our tentative >> > modelization, crystals are not requested to work as accelerometers). >> > >> > Antonio I8IOV > > >> Hi Antonio, >> >> Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A service manual. >> Minimum and >> maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the other variants of >> 10811 are >> all internally constructed the same, I would not expect a difference >> for the >> -60111. >> >> - Chad. >> > > > Speaking of the variants of the 10811- oscillator, does anyone know of a > reference that describes or compares the details and differences between > all the variations? > > Dave M > masondg44 at comcast dot net > > I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help > section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jim77742 at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 00:07:58 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:07:58 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> Message-ID: Bill, I thought my "new age pseudo-science" comment would have been enough to make people understand it was humour. Apologies for leaving the :-) off the bottom of the email! Jim 2009/7/9 WB6BNQ > Jim, > > I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most > informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of > the hp > oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got > a bit > out of hand. > > I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for > discussion of > topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision > in > all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same > level > whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many > are here > for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others > that > have gone before them. > > If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never > suggesting > what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate > for his > circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I > do not > have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. > Hmmmm, > maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive > you > "nuts" time and time again. > > Who would have thought ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > The point being that > > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > > All, > > > > Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. > > > > All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g > > sensitivity" does not belong in this group. > > > > Thank you. > > > > Jim > > > > 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > > > > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > > Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > > > internal pictures. > > > The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the > can, > > > see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > > > > > > Robert G8RPI. > > > > > > --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > > > > > > > From: iovane at inwind.it > > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > > > To: "time-nuts" > > > > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > > > > Hi Chad, > > > > > > > > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > > > > as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > > > > orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > > > > seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > > > > take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > > > > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > > > > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > > > > its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > > > > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > > > > oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > > > > > > > > Thanks. > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > > > > > > > > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > > > > service manual. Minimum and > > > > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > > > > other variants of 10811 are > > > > > all internally constructed the same, I would not > > > > expect a difference for the > > > > > -60111. > > > > > > > > > > - Chad. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of > > > > the crystal faces relative > > > > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > > > > > > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are > > > > considering building a 3-axis > > > > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > > > > on our tentative > > > > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work > > > > as accelerometers). > > > > > > > > > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wb6bnq at cox.net Thu Jul 9 00:10:40 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:10:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> <4A552CD2.3010601@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A553580.B6AA2520@cox.net> Dear Bruce, I was trying to make a bit of humor, admittedly at your expense, playing on "time" and "nuts." I would have included the "internet" smilelys, or whatever you call them, but I do not know them and would not know which to apply at the end of my sentences. Such would have noted it was not an attack, which truly it was not. You are not the only one who is cryptic with some of their responses. You just happen to be the most prolific, on the surface, and the easiest, in this case, to poke fun at (so to speak). As you so correctly point out, it really does require knowing the intended purposes and application for a circuit before deciding upon a selection of parts. I see you took my attempt at being a comedian in the wrong light, for that I apologize. 73....Bill....WB6BNQ Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Bill > > In general, for frequencies of around 10MHz and below 2N3904's and > 2N3906's work well at least for collector currents < 40mA or so. > In some circuits these will even work well to around 100MHz albeit with > higher noise and distortion. > For higher frequencies faster transistors are usually advisable. > > The choice of comparator depends on what logic it is intended to drive. > With logic supplies as low as 1.8V for some FPGAs and CPLDs its > difficult to give a part that suits all applications. > > If in doubt ask (off line if you prefer) and I'll find a part (or parts) > that you can easily obtain that suits your particular application. > > Bruce > > WB6BNQ wrote: > > Jim, > > > > I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most > > informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of the hp > > oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got a bit > > out of hand. > > > > I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for discussion of > > topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision in > > all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same level > > whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many are here > > for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others that > > have gone before them. > > > > If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never suggesting > > what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate for his > > circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I do not > > have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. Hmmmm, > > maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive you > > "nuts" time and time again. > > > > Who would have thought ? > > > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > > > > The point being that > > > > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > > > > >> All, > >> > >> Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. > >> > >> All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g > >> sensitivity" does not belong in this group. > >> > >> Thank you. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > >> > >> > >>> Hi Antonio, > >>> Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > >>> internal pictures. > >>> The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, > >>> see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > >>> > >>> Robert G8RPI. > >>> > >>> --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> From: iovane at inwind.it > >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > >>>> To: "time-nuts" > >>>> Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > >>>> Hi Chad, > >>>> > >>>> the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > >>>> as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > >>>> orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > >>>> seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > >>>> take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > >>>> (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > >>>> sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > >>>> its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > >>>> So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > >>>> oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> Antonio I8IOV > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Antonio, > >>>>> > >>>>> Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > >>>>> > >>>> service manual. Minimum and > >>>> > >>>>> maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > >>>>> > >>>> other variants of 10811 are > >>>> > >>>>> all internally constructed the same, I would not > >>>>> > >>>> expect a difference for the > >>>> > >>>>> -60111. > >>>>> > >>>>> - Chad. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> does anybody out there know the orientation of > >>>>>> > >>>> the crystal faces relative > >>>> > >>>>>> to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > >>>>>> > >>>>>> (The sense of the question is that we are > >>>>>> > >>>> considering building a 3-axis > >>>> > >>>>>> apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > >>>>>> > >>>> on our tentative > >>>> > >>>>>> modelization, crystals are not requested to work > >>>>>> > >>>> as accelerometers). > >>>> > >>>>>> Antonio I8IOV > >>>>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>> > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 9 00:16:48 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:16:48 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data Message-ID: <20090709001649.3C48DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's been running for months. Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last two days. Here is a graph: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Drift-ocxo3mhz-d.gif Here is the raw data: It's the 2.999... column. The second column is seconds in the day day. They are 5 minutes apart. 55019 65824.624 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070130E+04 55019 66124.710 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070725E+04 55019 66424.796 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768071164E+04 55019 66724.882 F +2.9999997045E+06 F +3.2768071592E+04 <== 55019 67024.968 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072178E+04 55019 67325.054 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072586E+04 55019 67624.140 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768073011E+04 55019 67924.226 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768073466E+04 55020 61924.265 F +2.9999996883E+06 F +3.2768068930E+04 55020 62224.351 F +2.9999996884E+06 F +3.2768069393E+04 55020 62524.437 F +2.9999996882E+06 F +3.2768069919E+04 55020 62824.523 F +2.9999997030E+06 F +3.2768070314E+04 <== 55020 63124.609 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070508E+04 55020 63424.695 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070907E+04 55020 63724.781 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768071254E+04 55020 64024.867 F +2.9999996879E+06 F +3.2768071523E+04 Does anybody have any suggestions for what is causing things like this? Or a checklist of things I should consider? Everything is plugged into the same outlet. The OCXO is powered by a wall wart. I wasn't near it at either time. My UPS didn't see any power glitches at either time. (They are not running off the UPS. For this, I'm just using it to monitor power.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Thu Jul 9 00:21:29 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:21:29 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A553580.B6AA2520@cox.net> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> <4A552CD2.3010601@xtra.co.nz> <4A553580.B6AA2520@cox.net> Message-ID: <4A553809.2050506@xtra.co.nz> Bill WB6BNQ wrote: > Dear Bruce, > > I was trying to make a bit of humor, admittedly at your expense, playing on "time" and > "nuts." I would have included the "internet" smilelys, or whatever you call them, but > I do not know them and would not know which to apply at the end of my sentences. Such > would have noted it was not an attack, which truly it was not. > > I've got a fairly thick skin, I often find some humour at my expense amusing. > You are not the only one who is cryptic with some of their responses. You just happen > to be the most prolific, on the surface, and the easiest, in this case, to poke fun at > (so to speak). As you so correctly point out, it really does require knowing the > intended purposes and application for a circuit before deciding upon a selection of > parts. > > I see you took my attempt at being a comedian in the wrong light, for that I apologize. > I saw and appreciated the humour, but thought there might perhaps also be a serious underlying question. > 73....Bill....WB6BNQ > > > Bruce > Bruce Griffiths wrote: > > >> Bill >> >> In general, for frequencies of around 10MHz and below 2N3904's and >> 2N3906's work well at least for collector currents < 40mA or so. >> In some circuits these will even work well to around 100MHz albeit with >> higher noise and distortion. >> For higher frequencies faster transistors are usually advisable. >> >> The choice of comparator depends on what logic it is intended to drive. >> With logic supplies as low as 1.8V for some FPGAs and CPLDs its >> difficult to give a part that suits all applications. >> >> If in doubt ask (off line if you prefer) and I'll find a part (or parts) >> that you can easily obtain that suits your particular application. >> >> Bruce >> >> WB6BNQ wrote: >> >>> Jim, >>> >>> I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most >>> informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of the hp >>> oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got a bit >>> out of hand. >>> >>> I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for discussion of >>> topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision in >>> all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same level >>> whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many are here >>> for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others that >>> have gone before them. >>> >>> If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never suggesting >>> what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate for his >>> circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I do not >>> have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. Hmmmm, >>> maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive you >>> "nuts" time and time again. >>> >>> Who would have thought ? >>> >>> Bill....WB6BNQ >>> >>> >>> The point being that >>> >>> Jim Palfreyman wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> All, >>>> >>>> Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. >>>> >>>> All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g >>>> sensitivity" does not belong in this group. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi Antonio, >>>>> Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for >>>>> internal pictures. >>>>> The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, >>>>> see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm >>>>> >>>>> Robert G8RPI. >>>>> >>>>> --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> From: iovane at inwind.it >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation >>>>>> To: "time-nuts" >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM >>>>>> Hi Chad, >>>>>> >>>>>> the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, >>>>>> as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to >>>>>> orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it >>>>>> seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't >>>>>> take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted >>>>>> (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" >>>>>> sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on >>>>>> its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. >>>>>> So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually >>>>>> oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> Antonio I8IOV >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Antonio, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> service manual. Minimum and >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> other variants of 10811 are >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> all internally constructed the same, I would not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> expect a difference for the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> -60111. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - Chad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> does anybody out there know the orientation of >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> the crystal faces relative >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> to the outer case in a 10811-60111? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (The sense of the question is that we are >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> considering building a 3-axis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> on our tentative >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> modelization, crystals are not requested to work >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> as accelerometers). >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> Antonio I8IOV >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From lists at cq.nu Thu Jul 9 00:23:15 2009 From: lists at cq.nu (Bob Camp) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:23:15 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> Message-ID: <04F11592-71B2-4BC4-8247-12F997502784@cq.nu> Hi I think that if you dig into it, you will find that there is a polarized light process to orient the blank before the base plate is applied. Unfortunately for the discussion at hand, the direction of maximum G sensitivity is still random relative to the mount. Bob KB8TQ On Jul 8, 2009, at 7:06 PM, Rick Karlquist wrote: > Remember that the SC cut is doubly rotated, so the crystallographic > axes are tilted relative to plane of the blank. These angles are > published in papers on the SC cut and controlled to extremely tight > tolerances (a few seconds of arc). However, the 10811 crystal > package is free to rotate to any random angle, so the > crystallographic orientation of a 10811 crystal would only be > consistent if the production line proactively installed them > in a certain orientation. I don't remember ever hearing about > anyone paying attention to how the crystals were oriented, > in all my years of dealing with the 10811. If it were important, > knowing how HP did things, the crystal package would be indexed > so that the orientation would not be up to the whim of the > assembler. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com Thu Jul 9 00:31:41 2009 From: HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com (HENRY GILSDORF) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 19:31:41 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data In-Reply-To: <20090709001649.3C48DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A14145F18@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> I've had the same thing happening with Prologix Ethernet setup until firmware 1.5.1.0. -Henry -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:17 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's been running for months. Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last two days. Here is a graph: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Drift-ocxo3mhz-d.gif Here is the raw data: It's the 2.999... column. The second column is seconds in the day day. They are 5 minutes apart. 55019 65824.624 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070130E+04 55019 66124.710 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070725E+04 55019 66424.796 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768071164E+04 55019 66724.882 F +2.9999997045E+06 F +3.2768071592E+04 <== 55019 67024.968 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072178E+04 55019 67325.054 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072586E+04 55019 67624.140 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768073011E+04 55019 67924.226 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768073466E+04 55020 61924.265 F +2.9999996883E+06 F +3.2768068930E+04 55020 62224.351 F +2.9999996884E+06 F +3.2768069393E+04 55020 62524.437 F +2.9999996882E+06 F +3.2768069919E+04 55020 62824.523 F +2.9999997030E+06 F +3.2768070314E+04 <== 55020 63124.609 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070508E+04 55020 63424.695 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070907E+04 55020 63724.781 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768071254E+04 55020 64024.867 F +2.9999996879E+06 F +3.2768071523E+04 Does anybody have any suggestions for what is causing things like this? Or a checklist of things I should consider? Everything is plugged into the same outlet. The OCXO is powered by a wall wart. I wasn't near it at either time. My UPS didn't see any power glitches at either time. (They are not running off the UPS. For this, I'm just using it to monitor power.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jfor at quik.com Thu Jul 9 00:36:11 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 17:36:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> Message-ID: <2070.12.6.201.244.1247099771.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I certainly posted to thaqt thread several times. However, I just remembered that about 10 or 15 years ago, I was really stupid and split the female threaded boss on the bottom of a GPS antenna by putting a layer ot two of Tellon tape onto a Male PVC fitting. That 'lubricated' the joint enough that when I HAND TIGHTNED it, the threaded boss on the antenna split. Wish I'd checked whether the thread was tapered or not. -John ========== [snip] A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it > got a bit out of hand. [snip] From wb6bnq at cox.net Thu Jul 9 00:49:01 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 17:49:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A5527C2.D5DBFCD3@cox.net> <4A552CD2.3010601@xtra.co.nz> <4A553580.B6AA2520@cox.net> <4A553809.2050506@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A553E7D.30AB4089@cox.net> Hi Bruce, Well, I am glad you are not mad at me. As you know most humor is fact based and such is the case I made about the humor. I really do not have the in-depth knowledge that I should have when it comes to deciding which "transistor/opamp/comparator" part would be best. Particularly when the discussion starts getting heavy in the finer art of noise and phase disturbances and such. However, I never felt I could NOT approach you with such questions. Hopefully, no one took it otherwise. Bill....WB6BNQ Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Bill > > WB6BNQ wrote: > > Dear Bruce, > > > > I was trying to make a bit of humor, admittedly at your expense, playing on "time" and > > "nuts." I would have included the "internet" smilelys, or whatever you call them, but > > I do not know them and would not know which to apply at the end of my sentences. Such > > would have noted it was not an attack, which truly it was not. > > > > > I've got a fairly thick skin, I often find some humour at my expense > amusing. > > You are not the only one who is cryptic with some of their responses. You just happen > > to be the most prolific, on the surface, and the easiest, in this case, to poke fun at > > (so to speak). As you so correctly point out, it really does require knowing the > > intended purposes and application for a circuit before deciding upon a selection of > > parts. > > > > I see you took my attempt at being a comedian in the wrong light, for that I apologize. > > > I saw and appreciated the humour, but thought there might perhaps also > be a serious underlying question. > > 73....Bill....WB6BNQ > > > > > > > Bruce > > > Bruce Griffiths wrote: > > > > > >> Bill > >> > >> In general, for frequencies of around 10MHz and below 2N3904's and > >> 2N3906's work well at least for collector currents < 40mA or so. > >> In some circuits these will even work well to around 100MHz albeit with > >> higher noise and distortion. > >> For higher frequencies faster transistors are usually advisable. > >> > >> The choice of comparator depends on what logic it is intended to drive. > >> With logic supplies as low as 1.8V for some FPGAs and CPLDs its > >> difficult to give a part that suits all applications. > >> > >> If in doubt ask (off line if you prefer) and I'll find a part (or parts) > >> that you can easily obtain that suits your particular application. > >> > >> Bruce > >> > >> WB6BNQ wrote: > >> > >>> Jim, > >>> > >>> I totally disagree ! The "crystal orientations" thread has been most > >>> informative, particularly with regard to the link showing the internals of the hp > >>> oscillator. A short section of the "plumbing" was helpful, although it got a bit > >>> out of hand. > >>> > >>> I think the point of the "Timenuts" list is to provide a medium for discussion of > >>> topics that help people improve their efforts at achieving higher precision in > >>> all facets of time keeping. All of the list members are not on the same level > >>> whether it is education, technical or even monetary ability. Thus, many are here > >>> for learning and to prevent poor choices and expensive mistakes from others that > >>> have gone before them. > >>> > >>> If you want to complain about something, then jump on Bruce for never suggesting > >>> what "transistor/opamp/comparator" part number would be most appropriate for his > >>> circuits. I go "nuts" time and time again over that small point because I do not > >>> have enough in-depth knowledge to fully make the appropriate choices. Hmmmm, > >>> maybe that is why it is called "Timenuts" list ? A place for Bruce to drive you > >>> "nuts" time and time again. > >>> > >>> Who would have thought ? > >>> > >>> Bill....WB6BNQ > >>> > >>> > >>> The point being that > >>> > >>> Jim Palfreyman wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>> All, > >>>> > >>>> Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. > >>>> > >>>> All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g > >>>> sensitivity" does not belong in this group. > >>>> > >>>> Thank you. > >>>> > >>>> Jim > >>>> > >>>> 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Antonio, > >>>>> Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > >>>>> internal pictures. > >>>>> The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the can, > >>>>> see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > >>>>> > >>>>> Robert G8RPI. > >>>>> > >>>>> --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> From: iovane at inwind.it > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > >>>>>> To: "time-nuts" > >>>>>> Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM > >>>>>> Hi Chad, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, > >>>>>> as I could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to > >>>>>> orient my three 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it > >>>>>> seems that there is still a margin of ambiguity. I don't > >>>>>> take from the sketch how the crystal is actually fitted > >>>>>> (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > >>>>>> sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on > >>>>>> its suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > >>>>>> So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually > >>>>>> oriented, say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>> Antonio I8IOV > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Hi Antonio, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> service manual. Minimum and > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> other variants of 10811 are > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> all internally constructed the same, I would not > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> expect a difference for the > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> -60111. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> - Chad. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Dear all, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> does anybody out there know the orientation of > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> the crystal faces relative > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> (The sense of the question is that we are > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> considering building a 3-axis > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> on our tentative > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> modelization, crystals are not requested to work > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> as accelerometers). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Antonio I8IOV > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to > >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>>> and follow the instructions there. > >>>> > >>>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com Thu Jul 9 01:00:26 2009 From: HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com (HENRY GILSDORF) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 20:00:26 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data In-Reply-To: <20090709001649.3C48DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A14145F19@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> Hi I've had the same thing happening with a Prologix Ethernet setup until firmware 1.5.1.0. -Henry -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:17 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's been running for months. Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last two days. Here is a graph: http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Drift-ocxo3mhz-d.gif Here is the raw data: It's the 2.999... column. The second column is seconds in the day day. They are 5 minutes apart. 55019 65824.624 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070130E+04 55019 66124.710 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070725E+04 55019 66424.796 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768071164E+04 55019 66724.882 F +2.9999997045E+06 F +3.2768071592E+04 <== 55019 67024.968 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072178E+04 55019 67325.054 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072586E+04 55019 67624.140 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768073011E+04 55019 67924.226 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768073466E+04 55020 61924.265 F +2.9999996883E+06 F +3.2768068930E+04 55020 62224.351 F +2.9999996884E+06 F +3.2768069393E+04 55020 62524.437 F +2.9999996882E+06 F +3.2768069919E+04 55020 62824.523 F +2.9999997030E+06 F +3.2768070314E+04 <== 55020 63124.609 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070508E+04 55020 63424.695 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070907E+04 55020 63724.781 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768071254E+04 55020 64024.867 F +2.9999996879E+06 F +3.2768071523E+04 Does anybody have any suggestions for what is causing things like this? Or a checklist of things I should consider? Everything is plugged into the same outlet. The OCXO is powered by a wall wart. I wasn't near it at either time. My UPS didn't see any power glitches at either time. (They are not running off the UPS. For this, I'm just using it to monitor power.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From masondg44 at comcast.net Thu Jul 9 01:18:49 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 21:18:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: Message-ID: <9C76F5D3760D40B58F56CEC3D064BF84@D77M7BF1> .> Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2009 20:05:54 -0400 > From: John Ackermann N8UR > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Message-ID: <4A553462.8010303 at febo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed > > I think several of us have an HP document on-line that explains at least > a bunch of the various models. My copy is at > http://www.febo.com/pages/hp10811/HP10811-Specs.pdf > > John > ---- > > Dave M said the following on 07/08/2009 08:02 PM: >> >> >> Speaking of the variants of the 10811- oscillator, does anyone know of a >> reference that describes or compares the details and differences between >> all the variations? >> >> Dave M >> masondg44 at comcast dot net >> >> I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help >> section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. >> Many thanks for the link to that document. It has more data than I had hoped for. I have seen a number of the variations of the 10811 oscillator, but never have been able to identify the differences. Many kudos! Dave M I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 9 01:36:17 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:36:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A553E7D.30AB4089@cox.net> Message-ID: The nice thing about the amplifier circuits that Bruce has been modelling lately is the performance they can achieve using ordinary 2N3904/2N2222-class bipolars, with no exotic hardware or twitchy parameter dependencies. There is some work in progress now that will make inexpensive, plug-and-play isolation/distribution amps available to any who are interested, with S12 and additive-PN performance competitive with the best commercial and NIST designs. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of WB6BNQ > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 5:49 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > > Hi Bruce, > > Well, I am glad you are not mad at me. > > As you know most humor is fact based and such is the case I made > about the humor. I really > do not have the in-depth knowledge that I should have when it > comes to deciding which > "transistor/opamp/comparator" part would be best. Particularly > when the discussion starts > getting heavy in the finer art of noise and phase disturbances and such. > > However, I never felt I could NOT approach you with such > questions. Hopefully, no one took > it otherwise. > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 9 01:47:20 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2009 18:47:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data In-Reply-To: <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A14145F19@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> Message-ID: That doesn't look like a GPIB interface bug to me. Those usually involve duplicating or dropping data rather than arbitrarily turning multiple ASCII digits into others. Given the nature of those outliers I'd suspect a problem with the calculations made by the counter itself. Although: the later GPIB-USB and GPIB-LAN firmware is a pretty important update for some instruments, due to a change made in the way the bus pullups are used. If you are using either of these adapters, you should make sure you have the latest update installed. -- john, KE5FX > Hi > > I've had the same thing happening with a Prologix Ethernet setup until > firmware 1.5.1.0. > -Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Hal Murray > Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2009 7:17 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data > > I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's > been > running for months. > > Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last > two > days. > > Here is a graph: > http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Drift-ocxo3mhz-d.gif > > Here is the raw data: > > It's the 2.999... column. The second column is seconds in the day day. > They > are 5 minutes apart. > > 55019 65824.624 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070130E+04 > 55019 66124.710 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070725E+04 > 55019 66424.796 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768071164E+04 > 55019 66724.882 F +2.9999997045E+06 F +3.2768071592E+04 <== > 55019 67024.968 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072178E+04 > 55019 67325.054 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072586E+04 > 55019 67624.140 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768073011E+04 > 55019 67924.226 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768073466E+04 > > 55020 61924.265 F +2.9999996883E+06 F +3.2768068930E+04 > 55020 62224.351 F +2.9999996884E+06 F +3.2768069393E+04 > 55020 62524.437 F +2.9999996882E+06 F +3.2768069919E+04 > 55020 62824.523 F +2.9999997030E+06 F +3.2768070314E+04 <== > 55020 63124.609 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070508E+04 > 55020 63424.695 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070907E+04 > 55020 63724.781 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768071254E+04 > 55020 64024.867 F +2.9999996879E+06 F +3.2768071523E+04 > > > Does anybody have any suggestions for what is causing things like this? > Or a > checklist of things I should consider? > > Everything is plugged into the same outlet. The OCXO is powered by a > wall > wart. > > I wasn't near it at either time. > > My UPS didn't see any power glitches at either time. (They are not > running > off the UPS. For this, I'm just using it to monitor power.) > > > > From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 9 08:11:21 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:11:21 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 > From: Steve Rooke > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate > > Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP > server and it reported "Number of Satellites Tracked 892"! > Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since > when has NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into > space, it would be quite a log-jam up there :-) > > Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's > something to do with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make > it work and that is not supported any more. Anyone know if > there is a firmware update for these devices so that it can > work with SUN Java? > > 73, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two > clocks is never quite sure. Hi Steve... MS's JVM is still documented at... http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/default.mspx with links to all sorts of related stuff. I'm sure you could find the download from some archive somewhere if you poke about the web. As to self contained GPS diciplined NTP servers, they seem to be like rocking horse do-do's on the surplus market, hence my increasing dabbling in FreeBSD and it's aledged ability to do such things well, given a PPS capable GPS gadget, and some messing about recompiling the kernel with an extra option or two enabled. I have the hardware, I have the software, I just need the time to make it all work! Regards... Dave B (G8KBV/G0WBX I can legaly talk to myself! Still get no sense though...) My need for reliable NTP time? (Something my ISP seems to find dificult to do!) http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/ From iovane at inwind.it Thu Jul 9 08:38:54 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 10:38:54 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data Message-ID: I had the same problem with a Racal 1992 and a NI GPIB to RS232. Syncerely I'm now pleased that the problem was not only of mine :-). In my case sometimes the glitches took two adjacent readings (even if with different values), but I was sampling every 10 seconds, so my probality to get ones was much higher. I've not explained them, and was satisfied thinking of a loss of single bits somewhere in the serial stream due to some electrical disturbance. I modified my programs to ignore them. Glitches were sporadic, some days none, some days even three. (I take the opportunity to thank those who commented on orbiting crystals and crystal orientation. I've got good info) Antonio I8IOV > I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's been > running for months. > > Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last two > days. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 09:55:49 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 21:55:49 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80907090255i14815df5r199eb854763daf6c@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dave, I have a copy of MS Java but of course it only woks under Windows on IE. This is not an ideal solution for me as I run Linux and only use Firefox. If I access the servers web page with an browser running SUN Java I get all sorts of errors so this is probably out. At the moment I check its status via VMware running WinXP and that is a bit of a resource hog doing it that way. Yes, the freestanding GPS disciplined NTP servers are somewhat rare but they do come up occasionally as that's how I got mine on ePay. It's only the Truetime NTS-90 model but it seems to run well and can be administered via serial line or the web page if you do the MS thing. There are more versitile modles in the range than my base one and these can be administered via a keyboard on the front, and an LCD screen. I tried messing about with all the PPS stuff and kernel patches but it's not the easiest way to go and one of these servers works like a dream for what I need on my LAN. Regards, Steve 2009/7/9 Dave Baxter : >> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 >> From: Steve Rooke >> Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate >> >> Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP >> server and it reported "Number of Satellites Tracked ?892"! >> Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since >> when has NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into >> space, it would be quite a log-jam up there :-) >> >> Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's >> something to do with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make >> it work and that is not supported any more. Anyone know if >> there is a firmware update for these devices so that it can >> work with SUN Java? >> >> 73, >> Steve >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW >> A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two >> clocks is never quite sure. > > > Hi Steve... > > MS's JVM is still documented at... > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/default.mspx > with links to all sorts of related stuff. ?I'm sure you could find the > download from some archive somewhere if you poke about the web. > > As to self contained GPS diciplined NTP servers, they seem to be like > rocking horse do-do's on the surplus market, hence my increasing > dabbling in FreeBSD and it's aledged ability to do such things well, > given a PPS capable GPS gadget, and some messing about recompiling the > kernel with an extra option or two enabled. ? I have the hardware, I > have the software, I just need the time to make it all work! > > Regards... > > Dave B (G8KBV/G0WBX ? I can legaly talk to myself! ?Still get no sense > though...) > > My need for reliable NTP time? ?(Something my ISP seems to find dificult > to do!) > http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From iovane at inwind.it Thu Jul 9 10:06:02 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:06:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: I have another reading key. When the manufacturer publishes the specs of its crystals, it alrady took into account all of the possible known variables, some of them very tiny such as dependences on orientation (which do exist), so freeing the assembler (and the end-user) from caring of. (Anyway, on the issue of dependence on orientation, I feel the standpoint of this group is a bit superficial. I would suggest a test. Those of you who have GPSDO or cesium and are tracking the control voltage, please try rotating your oscillator, and make the voltage trace available to the group). Antonio I8IOV Rick Karlquist wrote: >......... However, the 10811 crystal > package is free to rotate to any random angle, so the > crystallographic orientation of a 10811 crystal would only be > consistent if the production line proactively installed them > in a certain orientation. I don't remember ever hearing about > anyone paying attention to how the crystals were oriented, > in all my years of dealing with the 10811. If it were important, > knowing how HP did things, the crystal package would be indexed > so that the orientation would not be up to the whim of the > assembler. From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 11:06:33 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:06:33 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80907090406m65f33b04r9d08344b683f3e68@mail.gmail.com> Hi Antonio, Your probably right about the jump as has also been pointed out by others. My initial reaction was to wonder what was going on here and could not seem to attribute it to anything else. Your welcome to my traces and it will be interesting to see if anything does occur. Cheers, Steve 2009/7/9 iovane at inwind.it : > Hi Steve, > for the meaning of jump we are accepting here I would have seen a more ripid rising slope, but....who knows? > > I would ask you a favour. I would be very pleased to see your Z3805 traces for the week centered approx on July 22 02:30 UT. There will be a total solar eclipse on the Pacific area. No matter that you are not in the eclipse path, I'm collecting any possible kind of data. Would it be possible? > > Could any other member of the list help with their traces? > > Thanks, > Antonio I8IOV > >> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. Comments >> please? >> >> 73, >> Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Jul 9 12:32:45 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:32:45 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Glitches in data In-Reply-To: <20090709001649.3C48DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090709001649.3C48DBCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A55E36D.80204@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal Murray wrote: > I've got an HP 5334B collecting data via a Prologix USB setup. It's been > running for months. > > Mostly, it's doing what I expect. But then I got 2 glitches in the last two > days. > > Here is a graph: > http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/time-nuts/Drift-ocxo3mhz-d.gif > > Here is the raw data: > > It's the 2.999... column. The second column is seconds in the day day. They > are 5 minutes apart. > > 55019 65824.624 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070130E+04 > 55019 66124.710 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768070725E+04 > 55019 66424.796 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768071164E+04 > 55019 66724.882 F +2.9999997045E+06 F +3.2768071592E+04 <== > 55019 67024.968 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072178E+04 > 55019 67325.054 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768072586E+04 > 55019 67624.140 F +2.9999996880E+06 F +3.2768073011E+04 > 55019 67924.226 F +2.9999996881E+06 F +3.2768073466E+04 > > 55020 61924.265 F +2.9999996883E+06 F +3.2768068930E+04 > 55020 62224.351 F +2.9999996884E+06 F +3.2768069393E+04 > 55020 62524.437 F +2.9999996882E+06 F +3.2768069919E+04 > 55020 62824.523 F +2.9999997030E+06 F +3.2768070314E+04 <== > 55020 63124.609 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070508E+04 > 55020 63424.695 F +2.9999996885E+06 F +3.2768070907E+04 > 55020 63724.781 F +2.9999996878E+06 F +3.2768071254E+04 > 55020 64024.867 F +2.9999996879E+06 F +3.2768071523E+04 > > > Does anybody have any suggestions for what is causing things like this? Or a > checklist of things I should consider? > > Everything is plugged into the same outlet. The OCXO is powered by a wall > wart. > > I wasn't near it at either time. > > My UPS didn't see any power glitches at either time. (They are not running > off the UPS. For this, I'm just using it to monitor power.) I would consider the possibility that you see start-channel slips where your start channel miss to trigger on a cycle and measures the next instead. It would really have helped if the binary raw-data was used, since then the event counter and time counter would have been available separately, which aids in analysis, along with the interpolator data, which forms the real raw-data from the counter-engine. Since f = events/time I can see if events = f*[guessed time] cranks out something usefull. Assuming that f should be somewhere close to 2,9999996880 MHz for the first sample, and that we can see that 60 second of time gives 179999981.28 and 179999982.27 events respectively, which seems sane. Assuming that the event counter now hit 179999982 (for starters, what times did we really have? time = events/f gives 60.00000024 s for the ...6880 sample and 59.99999991 s differing with about 330 ns, which seems to be exactly one period of the measured signal. If we have had the event counter and time-counters available separately, we could have hidden these slips by playing some tricks with the values before letting them produce the frequency or period values. Reciprocal counters are nice, but there is no reason to be hasty to mash the numbers together, it can help you in the initial post-processing. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Jul 9 12:40:45 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:40:45 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A55E54D.9080507@rubidium.dyndns.org> iovane at inwind.it wrote: > I have another reading key. > When the manufacturer publishes the specs of its crystals, it > alrady took into account all of the possible known variables, > some of them very tiny such as dependences on orientation > (which do exist), so freeing the assembler (and the end-user) > from caring of. > > (Anyway, on the issue of dependence on orientation, I feel > the standpoint of this group is a bit superficial. I would > suggest a test. Those of you who have GPSDO or cesium and are > tracking the control voltage, please try rotating your > oscillator, and make the voltage trace available to the > group). Since the gravitational/acceleration sensitivity is a vector property, it should not be hard to make a few measurements to establish this vector sensitivity for a number of oscillators and see if there is a good correlation or not. I have enougth 10811s on the bench that I could test with (8 would be sufficient to get some indication). The turn-over test needs to be done over all three axis. So top/bottom turn, long-side/long-side turn and short-end/short-end turn. The crystal blank is mounted parallel to the top and bottom sides BTW. Cheers, Magnus From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 9 12:40:53 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 13:40:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 60, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi again Steve... I found this:- http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page looking arround for any hints of IE and Linux. I'm wondering if it's more a problem of no ActivX in FireFox on 'nix, than any Java issue as such? OK on the self contained NTP boxes appearing time to time (punn not intended!) Trouble is, from memory I never see such stuff available on the UK site, or that US sellers will ship overseas. Cant say I blame them sometimes though. I'll keep 'em peeled just in case. Best Regards. Dave B > -----Original Message----- > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:11:21 +0100 > From: "Dave Baxter" > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate > To: > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 > > From: Steve Rooke > > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate > > > > Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP > server and it > > reported "Number of Satellites Tracked 892"! > > Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since > when has > > NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into space, it would be > > quite a log-jam up there :-) > > > > Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's > something to do > > with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make it work and > that is not > > supported any more. Anyone know if there is a firmware update for > > these devices so that it can work with SUN Java? > > > > 73, > > Steve > > -- > > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows > > what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. > > > Hi Steve... > > MS's JVM is still documented at... > http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/default.mspx > with links to all sorts of related stuff. I'm sure you could > find the download from some archive somewhere if you poke > about the web. > > As to self contained GPS diciplined NTP servers, they seem to > be like rocking horse do-do's on the surplus market, hence my > increasing dabbling in FreeBSD and it's aledged ability to do > such things well, given a PPS capable GPS gadget, and some > messing about recompiling the > kernel with an extra option or two enabled. I have the hardware, I > have the software, I just need the time to make it all work! > > Regards... > > Dave B (G8KBV/G0WBX I can legaly talk to myself! Still get no sense > though...) > > My need for reliable NTP time? (Something my ISP seems to > find dificult to do!) http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/ From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 9 13:17:27 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 14:17:27 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just found these on eBlag. Way outside my price range, but... 220445049656 Not sure if it actualy does GPS disiplined stuff, as there is no GPS antenna socket! 180370118043 Still too rich for me. And when you consider even a new NSLUG is about ?65, and the GPS is not an expensive item either, plus the software is probably 'nix based. I hope the guy selling them, is whoever has worked out how to do that. I'd hate to think somone else has put a lot of time and effort into doing that, and is getting ripped off. Wonder too just how accurate it is, using a USB based (non PPS) GPS? Cheers All. Dave B G0WBX. From wpxs472 at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 14:19:41 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:19:41 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum LPRO units on eBay Message-ID: I bought, but haven't received yet, one of the Datum LPRO units from eBay. In trying to find information, I was able to locate some info on the LPRO-101. However, looking at the picture on eBay, The model looks like LPRO-FLX. Is this the same as the dash 101? Also, are these units nearing the end of their expected lifetime? This is my first foray into the world of rubidium sources. I have a Z3801 and am contemplating getting a Thunderbolt. I wanted something to use at work where it is difficult to put up a GPS antenna. From jfor at quik.com Thu Jul 9 15:37:55 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 08:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1071.12.6.201.157.1247153875.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I have seen one instance where crystal orientation does matter. Among other things, I'm interested in WW II military radios. Admittedly long ago. The Canadian Wireless Set 19, the standard radio for many tanks, etc., in WW II had an external crystal calibrator. It put out 1 MHz, 100 KHz, and 10 KHz. Interestingly, the 100 KHz and 1 MHz were generated bu the same crystal. The calibrator was in its own case about 1.5 x 4 x 10 inches and could be mounted on edge or side. The manual specifically stated the crystal MUST be mounted in the correct orientation within the calibrator before the calibrator is mounted to the set. -John ============ > I have another reading key. > When the manufacturer publishes the specs of its crystals, it > alrady took into account all of the possible known variables, > some of them very tiny such as dependences on orientation > (which do exist), so freeing the assembler (and the end-user) > from caring of. > > (Anyway, on the issue of dependence on orientation, I feel > the standpoint of this group is a bit superficial. I would > suggest a test. Those of you who have GPSDO or cesium and are > tracking the control voltage, please try rotating your > oscillator, and make the voltage trace available to the > group). > > Antonio I8IOV > > Rick Karlquist wrote: > >>......... However, the 10811 crystal >> package is free to rotate to any random angle, so the >> crystallographic orientation of a 10811 crystal would only be >> consistent if the production line proactively installed them >> in a certain orientation. I don't remember ever hearing about >> anyone paying attention to how the crystals were oriented, >> in all my years of dealing with the 10811. If it were important, >> knowing how HP did things, the crystal package would be indexed >> so that the orientation would not be up to the whim of the >> assembler. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From richard at karlquist.com Thu Jul 9 15:50:45 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 08:50:45 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <04F11592-71B2-4BC4-8247-12F997502784@cq.nu> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> <04F11592-71B2-4BC4-8247-12F997502784@cq.nu> Message-ID: <4A5611D5.8000702@karlquist.com> Bob Camp wrote: > Hi > > I think that if you dig into it, you will find that there is a polarized > light process to orient the blank before the base plate is applied. > > Unfortunately for the discussion at hand, the direction of maximum G > sensitivity is still random relative to the mount. > > Bob > KB8TQ To clarify: the crystal PACKAGE (base plate) is randomly oriented in the 10811 casting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the blank is positioned in some definite orientation with respect to the base plate. Rick Karlquiost N6RK From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 15:54:12 2009 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:54:12 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <91981b3e0907090854v54af33d4v31fd6d184f3ade7@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Dave Baxter wrote: > Just found these on eBlag. > > Way outside my price range, but... > > 220445049656 ? Not sure if it actualy does GPS disiplined stuff, as there is no GPS antenna socket! > > 180370118043 ? Still too rich for me. ?And when you consider even a new NSLUG is about ?65, and the GPS is not an expensive item either, plus the software is probably 'nix based. did you notice that the demo site is called "red herring" - something is fishy about this whole setup. > I hope the guy selling them, is whoever has worked out how to do that. ? I'd hate to think somone else has put a lot of time and effort into doing that, and is getting ripped off. ? Wonder too just how accurate it is, using a USB based (non PPS) GPS? From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Jul 9 15:55:31 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 17:55:31 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A5611D5.8000702@karlquist.com> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> <04F11592-71B2-4BC4-8247-12F997502784@cq.nu> <4A5611D5.8000702@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <4A5612F3.9020502@rubidium.dyndns.org> Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > > > Bob Camp wrote: >> Hi >> >> I think that if you dig into it, you will find that there is a >> polarized light process to orient the blank before the base plate is >> applied. >> >> Unfortunately for the discussion at hand, the direction of maximum G >> sensitivity is still random relative to the mount. >> >> Bob >> KB8TQ > > To clarify: the crystal PACKAGE (base plate) is randomly oriented in > the 10811 casting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the blank is > positioned in some definite orientation with respect to the base plate. Around the blanks rotational axis I assume. That should stay the same, right? It's just one rotational freedom and not three that is there. Cheers, Magnus From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 9 17:08:50 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 18:08:50 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Yes Chris, I did notice that. ("red herring" that is) But I also do know that many people do indeed put various flavours of Linux etc on the "Slugs" as they are known, for all sorts of odd purposes. So (subject to enough memory) I suspect they could do the job, somehow. What that was advertised to be, I have no doubt it can be done. Just as before, without the 1PPS input, the actual accuracy (as in +- mS of UTC) would not be good. But for an unconnected (to the outside world) network that doesnt need mS accuracy to UTC, they could provide an acceptable NTP source perhaps to keep a collection of file servers in sync, or to drive time of day displays. Some of the earlier Linksys WRTG routers are also popular targets for home brewed Linux based "appliances", and there is also a lot of information about regarding hacking the hardware to include a "real" serial port too. (Seems, the only parts missing are the RS232 line drivers, and the 9way D socket!) It's a pity that the availability of the early versions that will run Linux etc, are becoming less common. With cheap second hand hardware like that about, with the right tools and information, I don't see it as impossible to re-purpose what was a Router, to be a GPS Disciplined NTP server, or anything else for that matter. People are already using them as Packet Radio (APRS) digipeaters & Igates etc. Then there are the proliferation of single board router kits about, at has to be said a good cost with amazing processing capabilities, and fast network ports. Many interestingly from Eastern Europe! Any of them use a fraction of the power a PC needs. I did (out of curiosity) look up an early RFC regarding the NTP protocol itself. After my head had stopped spinning, I couldnt help wondering that with modern micro-controllers, some of which have "open licensed" TCP stacks available. One of them could do the job, subject to the software being brewed of course. As to the rack units, not a lot of use to me then, even if I could afford them. Me. I just need the time to mess with all this... At the moment, my ISP's NTP service seems to be ticking along OK, but I would not be suprised to see it to jump sideways again, at any time without warning, as they are currently "restructuring" their own network. Cheers All. Off home now. Dave B Message: 8 Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:54:12 -0600 From: Chris Kuethe Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Message-ID: <91981b3e0907090854v54af33d4v31fd6d184f3ade7 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 7:17 AM, Dave Baxter wrote: > Just found these on eBlag. > > Way outside my price range, but... > > 220445049656 ? Not sure if it actualy does GPS disiplined stuff, as there is no GPS antenna socket! > > 180370118043 ? Still too rich for me. ?And when you consider even a new NSLUG is about ?65, and the GPS is not an expensive item either, plus the software is probably 'nix based. did you notice that the demo site is called "red herring" - something is fishy about this whole setup. > I hope the guy selling them, is whoever has worked out how to do that. ? I'd hate to think somone else has put a lot of time and effort into doing that, and is getting ripped off. ? Wonder too just how accurate it is, using a USB based (non PPS) GPS? >From the product's webpage: "The NTS1-GPS time source provides a time reference derived from the reception of NMEA data from the USB GPS receiver. It does not contain a pulse-per-second (PPS) kernel nor high-stability oscillators. The NTS1-GPS is not designed nor intended for use in application where high-precision high-stability UTC time is required. Position information is provided by the NTS1-GPS for reference only" > > Cheers All. > > Dave B > G0WBX. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 9 17:46:32 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 10:46:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: Message from "Dave Baxter" of "Thu, 09 Jul 2009 18:08:50 BST." Message-ID: <20090709174633.EFA38BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Some of the earlier Linksys WRTG routers are also popular targets for > home brewed Linux based "appliances", and there is also a lot of > information about regarding hacking the hardware to include a "real" > serial port too. (Seems, the only parts missing are the RS232 line > drivers, and the 9way D socket!) It's a pity that the availability of > the early versions that will run Linux etc, are becoming less common. Early WRT54G boxes had lots (relatively speaking) of RAM/ROM. To cut costs, Linksys switched from Linux to ??? and reduced the RAM. They now make a WRT54GL version that has more RAM. I assume they charge more for it, but I haven't checked prices. When I got one a couple of years ago, I paid the few extra $ in case I wanted to install non-standard software. I'm pretty sure the Linux hackers have managed to squeeze things into the smaller RAM of the newer boxes. Lots of info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRT54GL -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 9 18:05:46 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 11:05:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Datum LPRO units on eBay In-Reply-To: Message from John Green of "Thu, 09 Jul 2009 09:19:41 CDT." Message-ID: <20090709180547.670C7BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Also, are these units nearing the end of their expected lifetime? > I wanted something to use at work where it is difficult to put up a > GPS antenna. They are telco gear so I would expect long life. But I assume the lamp will wear out eventually. If you are worried about a unit at work dying at a bad time, consider getting two of them. Or take a normal handheld GPS unit to work and see if it works inside. You might get away without an outside antenna. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From rk at timing-consultants.com Thu Jul 9 18:36:13 2009 From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 19:36:13 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jim, It is very much on topic! Rob Kimberley -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: 08 July 2009 23:37 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation All, Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g sensitivity" does not belong in this group. Thank you. Jim 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > > Hi Antonio, > Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for > internal pictures. > The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the > can, see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm > > Robert G8RPI. > > --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: > > > From: iovane at inwind.it > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > To: "time-nuts" > > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM Hi Chad, > > > > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, as I > > could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to orient my three > > 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it seems that there is still a > > margin of ambiguity. I don't take from the sketch how the crystal is > > actually fitted > > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" > > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on its > > suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. > > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually oriented, > > say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. > > > > Thanks. > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > Hi Antonio, > > > > > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A > > service manual. Minimum and > > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the > > other variants of 10811 are > > > all internally constructed the same, I would not > > expect a difference for the > > > -60111. > > > > > > - Chad. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of > > the crystal faces relative > > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? > > > > > > > > (The sense of the question is that we are > > considering building a 3-axis > > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based > > on our tentative > > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work > > as accelerometers). > > > > > > > > Antonio I8IOV > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From djl at montana.com Thu Jul 9 18:43:49 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:43:49 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Agreed. Has anyone done the crucial experiment? establish stats, rotate assembly, establish stats, etc? Should be able to measure at least if there is an effect, and also if it is present, an approximate magnitude... Don Rob Kimberley > Jim, > > It is very much on topic! > > Rob Kimberley > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman > Sent: 08 July 2009 23:37 > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > All, > > Can you please follow John's instructions and stay on topic. > > All this new age pseudo-science talk of "crystal orientations" and "g > sensitivity" does not belong in this group. > > Thank you. > > Jim > > > 2009/7/9 Robert Atkinson > >> >> Hi Antonio, >> Have a look at http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS-oven-journey.htm for >> internal pictures. >> The crystal element is a disc mounted parallel to the flat end of the >> can, see http://www.bliley.com/index_088.htm >> >> Robert G8RPI. >> >> --- On Wed, 8/7/09, iovane at inwind.it wrote: >> >> > From: iovane at inwind.it >> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation >> > To: "time-nuts" >> > Date: Wednesday, 8 July, 2009, 7:01 PM Hi Chad, >> > >> > the sketch you sent seems to indirectly answer my question, as I >> > could rely on the axis of minimum "g" sensitivity to orient my three >> > 10811 assemblies, but for my purpose it seems that there is still a >> > margin of ambiguity. I don't take from the sketch how the crystal is >> > actually fitted >> > (vertically?) into the case. As far as I know, "g" >> > sensitivity depends mainly on how the crystal "weights" on its >> > suspensions (contacts), and this is secondary for me. >> > So, I would be pleased to know how the crystal is actually oriented, >> > say regardless of the "g" sensitivity. >> > >> > Thanks. >> > Antonio I8IOV >> > >> > > Hi Antonio, >> > > >> > > Please see the attached diagram from the 10811A >> > service manual. Minimum and >> > > maximum G-sensitivity axes are shown. Since the >> > other variants of 10811 are >> > > all internally constructed the same, I would not >> > expect a difference for the >> > > -60111. >> > > >> > > - Chad. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 10:27 AM, iovane at inwind.it >> > >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > > Dear all, >> > > > >> > > > does anybody out there know the orientation of >> > the crystal faces relative >> > > > to the outer case in a 10811-60111? >> > > > >> > > > (The sense of the question is that we are >> > considering building a 3-axis >> > > > apparatus for gravity-related tests. Note, based >> > on our tentative >> > > > modelization, crystals are not requested to work >> > as accelerometers). >> > > > >> > > > Antonio I8IOV >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Thu Jul 9 19:09:32 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:09:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: Message from "Dave Baxter" of "Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:17:27 BST." Message-ID: <20090709190933.409E0BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Wonder too just how accurate it is, using a USB based (non PPS) GPS? The picture looked like a GlobalSat BU-353. I guess you could build a NTP server out one, but I wouldn't expect time-nuts quality. I've been looking for low cost GPS units that work well with NTP. I haven't found much. USB has a bad reputation for timing because it's polled, but that polling is done in hardware on the order of a ms. You can sanity check things by feeding a GPS with a serial connection to both a normal serial port and a RS-232 to USB gizmo. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVC-usb-off.gif I think this says that USB works reasonably well and my kernel/whatever isn't getting the low-latency stuff right. The old non-x Garmin GPS-18-USB was pretty good. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18USB-off.gif The 18-x is pretty bad. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVCx-off.gif Most of the low cost USB units seem to use the SiRF chip sets. They are horrible for timing. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif If anybody figures out how to get reasonable timing out of one of these things, please clue me in. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Jul 9 19:41:00 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 12:41:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> > Agreed. Has anyone done the crucial experiment? establish stats, rotate > assembly, establish stats, etc? Should be able to measure at least if > there is an effect, and also if it is present, an approximate magnitude... > Don Hi Don, There are two rather different topics here. One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). The other question is what happens to quartz crystals or pendulum clocks or werewolves during a solar eclipse. This is the possible pseudo-science topic, although I do applaud anyone who carefully looks into it. A recent and good example of such an experiment is described here: "Effect of the 1999 Solar Eclipse on Atomic Clocks" "On the Behaviour of Atomic Clocks during the 1999 Solar Eclipse over Central Europe" /tvb From jherrero at hvsistemas.es Thu Jul 9 20:10:18 2009 From: jherrero at hvsistemas.es (Javier Herrero) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 22:10:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: <20090709174633.EFA38BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090709174633.EFA38BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A564EAA.5020106@hvsistemas.es> > Early WRT54G boxes had lots (relatively speaking) of RAM/ROM. To cut costs, > Linksys switched from Linux to ??? and reduced the RAM. > > to VxWorks Regards, Javier -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero at hvsistemas.com HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17A FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com From bg at lysator.liu.se Thu Jul 9 20:14:18 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:14:18 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. In-Reply-To: <20090709174633.EFA38BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090709174633.EFA38BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <65141.87.227.52.225.1247170458.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> >> Some of the earlier Linksys WRTG routers are also popular targets for >> home brewed Linux based "appliances", and there is also a lot of >> information about regarding hacking the hardware to include a "real" >> serial port too. (Seems, the only parts missing are the RS232 line >> drivers, and the 9way D socket!) It's a pity that the availability of >> the early versions that will run Linux etc, are becoming less common. > > I'm pretty sure the Linux hackers have managed to squeeze things into the > smaller RAM of the newer boxes. > > Lots of info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WRT54GL There is often a simple hardware hack available to get a (gnd, rx, tx) serial port on most router/nas/embedded appliances. I do not remember seeing any that had an input status pin. DCD (pin 1) is most often used. Thus lacking a good way to use a 1PPS, the serial interface might be beaten by a USB. We might be leaving time-nut territory wrt time accuracy anyway. -- Bj?rn From iovane at inwind.it Thu Jul 9 21:02:28 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 23:02:28 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: You are right, Tom, there are two mixed topics. On the on-topic subject, instead of making tests to measure the frequency dependence on orientation, It would be much more interesting looking at possible ADEV dependences on orientation, particularily for small tau (the bottom of the curve). I can't do the test myself now, but would be pleased to see it done. For someone here it should be easy. I suggest comparing the measurements made with the crystal on the horizontal plane vs a vertical plane. On the pseudo-science subject, I would recall that the experiment you pointed us to (null result) was made in Germany for NASA under NASA invitation. The results of the tests are in conflict with previous tests made in China by S.W.Zhou -cesium clocks changed rate- and known to Nasa (I gave the link some posts back), and the matter is not yet solved. Maybe time-nuts could help in the process of understanding what happened. Antonio I8IOV tvb wrote: > > Agreed. Has anyone done the crucial experiment? establish stats, rotate > > assembly, establish stats, etc? Should be able to measure at least if > > there is an effect, and also if it is present, an approximate magnitude... > > Don > > Hi Don, > > There are two rather different topics here. > > One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they > are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational > acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th > or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never > touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency > standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). > > The other question is what happens to quartz crystals or > pendulum clocks or werewolves during a solar eclipse. > This is the possible pseudo-science topic, although I do > applaud anyone who carefully looks into it. A recent and > good example of such an experiment is described here: > > "Effect of the 1999 Solar Eclipse on Atomic Clocks" > > > "On the Behaviour of Atomic Clocks during the > 1999 Solar Eclipse over Central Europe" > > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From richard at karlquist.com Thu Jul 9 22:01:26 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 15:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f7a6acfd9f0717b4d5d8a6fc7f90325.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> iovane\@inwind\.it wrote: > You are right, Tom, there are two mixed topics. > > On the on-topic subject, instead of making tests to measure the frequency > dependence on orientation, It would be much more interesting looking at > possible ADEV dependences on orientation, particularily for small tau (the > bottom of the curve). I can't do the test myself now, but would be pleased > to see it done. For someone here it should be easy. I suggest comparing > the measurements made with the crystal on the horizontal plane vs a > vertical plane. > My understanding from talking to the crystal gurus is that there is a fair amount of variability in acceleration sensitivity due to differences in stresses around the mounting areas, etc. You would probably need to characterize a number of 10811's to get any data you could generalize. The only thing you can count on is that is passes the 2g turnover test. Rick Karlquist N6RK From djl at montana.com Thu Jul 9 22:36:00 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:36:00 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: Message-ID: <78F859D1CB204D6BA338D74C767B9744@OFFICE2> Thanks. Tom. Glad to see the references. I've some experience with clock time difference, as I showed an astonishing number of years ago that the phase changes between two clocks as measured by their respective LORAN-C signals was due to changes in the atmospheric index of refraction for 100 KHz radio waves rather than some wierd effect of general relativity. Maybe some similar inattention to Occam's Razor was responsible for the shift associated with the eclipse. I will be observing this month's eclipse in China. Unfortunately, I will not have an assembly of atomic clocks to check. I'll look at my watch :-). Solar eclipses do have an effect on the earth's "fair-weather" electric field; I have measured it. This is due to an effect on local boundary-layer air motions very close to the surface from loss of solar heating. I can see absolutely no reason for a change in atomic clock behavior, however, if it is carefully shielded from this temperature pulse. Maybe we should also check during the next Grand Conjunction just in case. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "time-nuts" Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > You are right, Tom, there are two mixed topics. > > On the on-topic subject, instead of making tests to measure the frequency > dependence on orientation, It would be much more interesting looking at > possible ADEV dependences on orientation, particularily for small tau (the > bottom of the curve). I can't do the test myself now, but would be pleased > to see it done. For someone here it should be easy. I suggest comparing > the measurements made with the crystal on the horizontal plane vs a > vertical plane. > > On the pseudo-science subject, I would recall that the experiment you > pointed us to (null result) was made in Germany for NASA under NASA > invitation. > The results of the tests are in conflict with previous tests made in China > by > S.W.Zhou -cesium clocks changed rate- and known to Nasa (I gave the link > some > posts back), and the matter is not yet solved. Maybe time-nuts could help > in > the process of understanding what happened. > > Antonio I8IOV > > tvb wrote: > >> > Agreed. Has anyone done the crucial experiment? establish stats, rotate >> > assembly, establish stats, etc? Should be able to measure at least if >> > there is an effect, and also if it is present, an approximate >> > magnitude... >> > Don >> >> Hi Don, >> >> There are two rather different topics here. >> >> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >> >> The other question is what happens to quartz crystals or >> pendulum clocks or werewolves during a solar eclipse. >> This is the possible pseudo-science topic, although I do >> applaud anyone who carefully looks into it. A recent and >> good example of such an experiment is described here: >> >> "Effect of the 1999 Solar Eclipse on Atomic Clocks" >> >> >> "On the Behaviour of Atomic Clocks during the >> 1999 Solar Eclipse over Central Europe" >> >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bill at iaxs.net Thu Jul 9 22:49:57 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 17:49:57 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> Message-ID: <79CDC1C4020E4E2EB55637A344BA90D4@cyrus> Ah, "never touch, bump, etc." implies that the effect of changing the orientation of gravity is not reversible. Or is it that returning to the original orientation undoes the 10E9 effect but leaves a 10E12 permanent change? I'd like to do the experiment myself, but I'm still getting rid of stuff to get room on the bench. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: Tom Van Baak Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 2:41 PM One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 10 00:44:47 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 02:44:47 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <78F859D1CB204D6BA338D74C767B9744@OFFICE2> References: <78F859D1CB204D6BA338D74C767B9744@OFFICE2> Message-ID: <4A568EFF.8060906@rubidium.dyndns.org> Don Latham wrote: > Thanks. Tom. Glad to see the references. > I've some experience with clock time difference, as I showed an > astonishing number of years ago that the phase changes between two > clocks as measured by their respective LORAN-C signals was due to > changes in the atmospheric index of refraction for 100 KHz radio waves > rather than some wierd effect of general relativity. > Maybe some similar inattention to Occam's Razor was responsible for the > shift associated with the eclipse. I will be observing this month's > eclipse in China. Unfortunately, I will not have an assembly of atomic > clocks to check. I'll look at my watch :-). > Solar eclipses do have an effect on the earth's "fair-weather" electric > field; I have measured it. This is due to an effect on local > boundary-layer air motions very close to the surface from loss of solar > heating. > I can see absolutely no reason for a change in atomic clock behavior, > however, if it is carefully shielded from this temperature pulse. Maybe > we should also check during the next Grand Conjunction just in case. I think temperature shock to oscillators and atomsphear, along with loss of UV light could very well explain most if not all of the effects. I think whatever gravitational things people speculate on is many digits below just the temperature effect of the oscillator itself. For sats, it has already been shown that they have a tempco issue which occurs with lunar shadow, as it correlates well and is actually an expected mechanism. Rule out the simple causes first, engineers as so darn good at inventing complex causes as their brain goes bezerk. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 10 01:01:18 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 03:01:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5692DE.2060909@rubidium.dyndns.org> iovane at inwind.it wrote: > You are right, Tom, there are two mixed topics. > > On the on-topic subject, instead of making tests to measure the frequency > dependence on orientation, It would be much more interesting looking at > possible ADEV dependences on orientation, particularily for small tau (the > bottom of the curve). I can't do the test myself now, but would be pleased > to see it done. For someone here it should be easy. I suggest comparing > the measurements made with the crystal on the horizontal plane vs a > vertical plane. > > On the pseudo-science subject, I would recall that the experiment you > pointed us to (null result) was made in Germany for NASA under NASA invitation. > The results of the tests are in conflict with previous tests made in China by > S.W.Zhou -cesium clocks changed rate- and known to Nasa (I gave the link some > posts back), and the matter is not yet solved. Maybe time-nuts could help in > the process of understanding what happened. I am not sure that the conclusion can be made in the Zhou paper. Environmental issues can upset both the clocks and measurement equipment even when comparing two clocks at the same site. He does identify that ionospheric issues does not apply to clocks at the same site, but the pair-comparisions fails to de-correlate link-issues from clock issues. Environmental parameters like temperature, pressure? ionospheric TEC values etc. is lacking. The Zhou paper should be taken with a grain of salt. It does report on a number of deviations measured during eclipses. More investigations is needed to characterize the cause of these deviations. Anybody happens to know the temperature-profile of a typical eclipse? Rought scetch will do. Cheers, Magnus From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 10 03:32:01 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 20:32:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <4A5692DE.2060909@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > The Zhou paper should be taken with a grain of salt. It does report on a > number of deviations measured during eclipses. More investigations is > needed to characterize the cause of these deviations. Agreed. It is not uncommon for well-done experiments to spend more time on analysis of error sources than the "signal" itself. One must be one's own worst critic. By contrast, one reason I liked the paper by Udem, et al. is that their experiment seemed objective and quite thorough. They monitored ambient parameters including temperature, mains voltage, 3-axis magnetic field and air pressure. They used four different make/models of atomic clocks (from Rb to maser). The graphs are an outstanding example to any time-nut of correct and clear visual display of timing data. And, they make all the raw data available anyone. Hard to beat that. Intro pages: Plots (see figure1.html through figure6.html) Raw data: One thing to remember about looking for obscure events or subtle effects is that the best atomic clocks today are 100x or 1000x more stable than those from a few decades ago. So a small effect, if actually seen, in the 1990 's should be huge with the level of precision available in today's timing laboratories around the world. /tvb From swithrow at idcomm.com Fri Jul 10 05:13:32 2009 From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 23:13:32 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life Message-ID: <20090710051332.A12BB39405B@mailhost.idcomm.com> Hello Time-nuts, Just wondering what the group concensus might be concerning maximizing Cs tube life. On one extreme, if a tube is not used at all it will lose its vacuum. That is why Symmetricom instructs that stored tubes be powered for at least 30 minutes each 6 months. At the other extreme is powering the tube 24/7 which depletes the Cs source. In the middle is the question of how long does it take to achieve satisfactory stability to use the unit to evaluate other devices (oscillators - xtal or Rb). I would like to maximize the tube life and only need to do evaluations periodically. My first inclination is to fire up the cesium a week or so in advance of use and then shut it down until needed again. Just wondering what the time-nut collective experience might be? Regards, Skip Withrow From jmiles at pop.net Fri Jul 10 05:47:45 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 22:47:45 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: <20090710051332.A12BB39405B@mailhost.idcomm.com> Message-ID: Many standards have a rear-panel jack for a dedicated ion-pump supply, which can be left powered up 24/7. If you run the ion pump continuously, but not the Cs oven, the tube will presumably last forever. I added a switch to my 5062C that allows me to leave it plugged in with the ion pump and OCXO running, but little else. When I want to stabilize the OCXO, I flip the switch and wait 10-15 minutes while the Cs oven comes up to its operating temperature. This seems to be working well so far. I don't know exactly how long the Cs oven needs to operate before the final stability specs are reached, but I'd be surprised if it took more than an hour or two. Since the OCXO runs all the time, I would think I'd see some control-voltage drift if the Cs tube took longer than that to warm up, but I haven't noticed any to date. This setup is fairly new and I'm still working on characterizing it, so don't take any of the above as gospel. Also, most Cs standards are several times more stable than the 5062C, and they may need (much) more time to reach their specs. Waiting a week before doing anything hardcore is probably smart. -- john, KE5FX > Hello Time-nuts, > > Just wondering what the group concensus might be concerning maximizing Cs > tube life. On one extreme, if a tube is not used at all it will lose its > vacuum. That is why Symmetricom instructs that stored tubes be > powered for > at least 30 minutes each 6 months. At the other extreme is powering the > tube 24/7 which depletes the Cs source. > > In the middle is the question of how long does it take to achieve > satisfactory stability to use the unit to evaluate other devices > (oscillators - xtal or Rb). > > I would like to maximize the tube life and only need to do evaluations > periodically. My first inclination is to fire up the cesium a > week or so in > advance of use and then shut it down until needed again. > > Just wondering what the time-nut collective experience might be? > > Regards, > Skip Withrow > > > From sar10538 at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 06:27:07 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:27:07 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 60, Issue 42 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80907092327x7ec91002n843c3de9bf3fbcee@mail.gmail.com> Hi Dave, Thanks for the link, I already have this setup working but the problem is that it does not have the necessary Java component to make the Truetime web system work and I have not taken the time to see if this could be engineered in. Regarding running it under Firefox with SUN Java on Linux, or even Windows, it crashes and looking at the Java debug output there seems to be embedded references to specific Windows files, ie. C:\blah\blah\blah, for the MS Java component, hence it throws out null pointer references. As for GPS disciplined NTP black-boxes, I'd just keep looking. I paid about US$180 for mine from somewhere in the US (sorry but the auction listing has expired now and I have no further info). These must rotate out some times and if you do see one advertised as only available to the US (as is all too frequently the case with US auctions, sadly), it is always worthwhile asking the seller politely if they would consider a bid from you. It has worked for me a few times and I think sometimes that the seller is not keen on selling to certain countries so they see it easier to say US only. Anyway, good luck with this, I'm glad I got mine, it's just a turn-key system and easy to setup. Best regards, Steve 2009/7/10 Dave Baxter : > Hi again Steve... > > I found this:- > http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page > looking arround for any hints of IE and Linux. > > I'm wondering if it's more a problem of no ActivX in FireFox on 'nix, > than any Java issue as such? > > OK on the self contained NTP boxes appearing time to time (punn not > intended!) ? Trouble is, from memory I never see such stuff available on > the UK site, or that US sellers will ship overseas. ?Cant say I blame > them sometimes though. > > I'll keep 'em peeled just in case. > > Best Regards. > > Dave B > >> -----Original Message----- >> Message: 3 >> Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 09:11:21 +0100 >> From: "Dave Baxter" >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate >> To: >> Message-ID: >> ? ? ? >> Content-Type: text/plain; ? ? charset="us-ascii" >> >> > Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 01:46:07 +1200 >> > From: Steve Rooke >> > Subject: [time-nuts] GPS just got very accurate >> > >> > Was just checking the GPS status page of my Truetime NTP >> server and it >> > reported "Number of Satellites Tracked ?892"! >> > Quite apart from it only being able to track 8 birds, since >> when has >> > NASA suddenly become that busy sending sats into space, it would be >> > quite a log-jam up there :-) >> > >> > Refresh of page gave the correct answer, 5. Maybe it's >> something to do >> > with the firmware needing MS Java VM to make it work and >> that is not >> > supported any more. Anyone know if there is a firmware update for >> > these devices so that it can work with SUN Java? >> > >> > 73, >> > Steve >> > -- >> > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows >> > what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. >> >> >> Hi Steve... >> >> MS's JVM is still documented at... >> http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/default.mspx >> with links to all sorts of related stuff. ?I'm sure you could >> find the download from some archive somewhere if you poke >> about the web. >> >> As to self contained GPS diciplined NTP servers, they seem to >> be like rocking horse do-do's on the surplus market, hence my >> increasing dabbling in FreeBSD and it's aledged ability to do >> such things well, given a PPS capable GPS gadget, and some >> messing about recompiling the >> kernel with an extra option or two enabled. ? I have the hardware, I >> have the software, I just need the time to make it all work! >> >> Regards... >> >> Dave B (G8KBV/G0WBX ? I can legaly talk to myself! ?Still get no sense >> though...) >> >> My need for reliable NTP time? ?(Something my ISP seems to >> find dificult to do!) http://g8kbv.homeip.net:8008/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Fri Jul 10 08:31:13 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 09:31:13 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost GPS for NTP use (was: RE: time-nuts Digest, Vol 60, Issue 44) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bob (Fluke.1) has some GPS16HVS's at a decent price. Very short (cut off) leads though. I have two of them (one just in case) and am about to graft on cable extensions to test them. These are units that do have real RS232 and 1PPS output as standard, & work from an 8 to 40V supply, for a fraction of their new cost! Garmin still hosts the data sheets, user and tech manuals, and configuration software, freely downloadable I believe from what I hear on other lists, that there are probably 100's of these units being "decommissioned" all over the world. They are not that old in real terms. I was also experimenting with a SiRF start based "mouse" type GPS. The ones with the long tail and 6 pin RJ connector for the serial IO. And a red flashing light on the mouse, that flashes (changes once a second!) when it has acquired the signal. I was trying to track down the PPS signal that triggers the flip-flop that drives the LED. You never know (there are unused pins on it's IO connector inside the case....) But the circuitry is just too small for me to see, let alone probe with a 'scope! So, I'll keep them for use with trackers. Best Regards.. Dave Baxter. G0WBX. ---- snip ---- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2009 12:09:32 -0700 From: Hal Murray Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time servers on a well known web site. To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Message-ID: <20090709190933.409E0BCF1 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Wonder too just how accurate it is, using a USB based (non PPS) GPS? The picture looked like a GlobalSat BU-353. I guess you could build a NTP server out one, but I wouldn't expect time-nuts quality. I've been looking for low cost GPS units that work well with NTP. I haven't found much. USB has a bad reputation for timing because it's polled, but that polling is done in hardware on the order of a ms. You can sanity check things by feeding a GPS with a serial connection to both a normal serial port and a RS-232 to USB gizmo. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVC-usb-off.gif I think this says that USB works reasonably well and my kernel/whatever isn't getting the low-latency stuff right. The old non-x Garmin GPS-18-USB was pretty good. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18USB-off.gif The 18-x is pretty bad. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVCx-off.gif Most of the low cost USB units seem to use the SiRF chip sets. They are horrible for timing. http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif If anybody figures out how to get reasonable timing out of one of these things, please clue me in. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From namichie at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 12:44:42 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 22:44:42 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03188386-6A13-41F0-967C-972927BB4400@gmail.com> Regarding the effect of solar eclipse on timekeepers, The obvious variables of gravity and temperature can be monitored, but what about neutrino flux? There is quite a lot of neutrino energy passing through the planet and it would take a lump like the moon to make a significant change in the flux. Of course if the flux was a variable there would be a daily cycle, but maybe we can not separate that from other diurnal signals. Just and idea, Cheers, Neville Michie On 09/07/2009, at 3:18 AM, iovane@@inwind..it wrote: > Hi Steve, > for the meaning of jump we are accepting here I would have seen a > more ripid rising slope, but....who knows? > > I would ask you a favour. I would be very pleased to see your Z3805 > traces for the week centered approx on July 22 02:30 UT. There will > be a total solar eclipse on the Pacific area. No matter that you > are not in the eclipse path, I'm collecting any possible kind of > data. Would it be possible? > > Could any other member of the list help with their traces? > > Thanks, > Antonio I8IOV > >> Attached plot of jump in my Z3805. Looks like there was a jump and >> then then a rapid track back to the "normal" frequency drift. >> Comments >> please? >> >> 73, >> Steve > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jltran at worldnet.att.net Fri Jul 10 13:16:33 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 08:16:33 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, I have a 5061A and 5061B and both have a position on their front panel MODE switch that is CS OFF. When in this position the CS OVEN is off, the OSC OVEN is on, the ION PUMP is working and there is signal out (10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz, 100 KHz, as appropriate) as measured by the CIRCUIT CHECK meter. Is the 5062C different? Is there something I am missing here? I guess I do not understand the need to 'add a switch' unless it is the desire to only run the ION PUMP and the OSC OVEN but not the OSC or anything else. The one thing I have noticed is the incredible stability of the crystal oscillators for weeks at a time as compared to my Thunderbolt. On the order of 0.1 Hz at 10 MHz after a week. My thought is to use that as my 'bench standard' for everyday work then turn on the CS when I really need it right, using my Thunderbolt to compare the crystal oscillator for everyday work and conserving CS in the process. I am a 'novice' in the arena of the time-nuts and my primary purpose (at least for now) is to have a 'bench standard'. I suspect, for that purpose, the CS is way overkill. I would appreciate any pointers I can get. Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 12:48 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life Many standards have a rear-panel jack for a dedicated ion-pump supply, which can be left powered up 24/7. If you run the ion pump continuously, but not the Cs oven, the tube will presumably last forever. I added a switch to my 5062C that allows me to leave it plugged in with the ion pump and OCXO running, but little else. When I want to stabilize the OCXO, I flip the switch and wait 10-15 minutes while the Cs oven comes up to its operating temperature. This seems to be working well so far. I don't know exactly how long the Cs oven needs to operate before the final stability specs are reached, but I'd be surprised if it took more than an hour or two. Since the OCXO runs all the time, I would think I'd see some control-voltage drift if the Cs tube took longer than that to warm up, but I haven't noticed any to date. This setup is fairly new and I'm still working on characterizing it, so don't take any of the above as gospel. Also, most Cs standards are several times more stable than the 5062C, and they may need (much) more time to reach their specs. Waiting a week before doing anything hardcore is probably smart. -- john, KE5FX > Hello Time-nuts, > > Just wondering what the group concensus might be concerning maximizing > Cs tube life. On one extreme, if a tube is not used at all it will > lose its vacuum. That is why Symmetricom instructs that stored tubes > be powered for at least 30 minutes each 6 months. At the other > extreme is powering the tube 24/7 which depletes the Cs source. > > In the middle is the question of how long does it take to achieve > satisfactory stability to use the unit to evaluate other devices > (oscillators - xtal or Rb). > > I would like to maximize the tube life and only need to do evaluations > periodically. My first inclination is to fire up the cesium a week or > so in advance of use and then shut it down until needed again. > > Just wondering what the time-nut collective experience might be? > > Regards, > Skip Withrow > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jmiles at pop.net Fri Jul 10 13:36:40 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 06:36:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I have a 5061A and 5061B and both have a position on their front > panel MODE > switch that is CS OFF. When in this position the CS OVEN is off, the OSC > OVEN is on, the ION PUMP is working and there is signal out (10 > MHz, 5 MHz, > 1 MHz, 100 KHz, as appropriate) as measured by the CIRCUIT CHECK meter. > > Is the 5062C different? Is there something I am missing here? I > guess I do > not understand the need to 'add a switch' unless it is the desire to only > run the ION PUMP and the OSC OVEN but not the OSC or anything else. Right; there was no CS OFF switch on the 5062C. You can open the loop, but that's it. I could have run the ion pump supply from the rear panel, but that would have taken a separate power supply, and would have left the crystal oven cold. It sounds like the switch I added does essentially the same thing as the one you're talking about. In your case you could maximize tube life by leaving that switch set to CS OFF except when needed. That doesn't answer the question of how long the Cs tube needs in order to meet specs, but presumably the manual would...? I'd be curious to hear the answer myself. > The one thing I have noticed is the incredible stability of the crystal > oscillators for weeks at a time as compared to my Thunderbolt. > On the order > of 0.1 Hz at 10 MHz after a week. The Thunderbolt should be in that ballpark (being only 1E-8 per week) when undisciplined, and of course much better when GPS-locked. A good OCXO, when not locked to anything else, should stay put to the tune of 1E-10 to 5E-10 per day. The HP 10543 oscillator in my 5062C had a bad case of near-constant phase jumps, so I have a Wenzel Timekeeper-class unit in there now, plus an x2 doubler to get 10 MHz out the front panel. I'm not sure I have the loop bandwidth optimized for it yet, but at least it locks up nicely and doesn't jump. -- john, KE5FX From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Fri Jul 10 14:16:54 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:16:54 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX Message-ID: Guys, after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and Kit) there is a stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the Z3801, the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From don at k7tsv.com Fri Jul 10 14:23:24 2009 From: don at k7tsv.com (Don Garlick) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 07:23:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] FW: For Sale HP Z3801A Message-ID: <196901ca0169$fc8b4560$f5a1d020$@com> I tried to take this off list but no one answered. Answers to prior questions: Good cosmetic condition Can deal with checks Do not remember the antenna it has preamp and is conical in shape It is changed to RS-232 I have a 8 channel replacement sat RX to make an update I have a power supply to run it also To view the HP Z3801A operation before the computer crashed Go to http://gps.garlickfamily.org I can make pictures if needed. Thanks Don don at k7tsv.com ============================================ I have a Z3801A in operating condition. The computer it was connected to lost it's hard drive and I have fallen on hard financial times. So I need to sell the Z3801A and pay some bills. Please reply off list. Thank you don at k7tsv.com _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.0/2209 - Release Date: 07/08/09 05:53:00 From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 10 14:34:25 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:34:25 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Interesting jump in my Z3805 In-Reply-To: <03188386-6A13-41F0-967C-972927BB4400@gmail.com> References: <03188386-6A13-41F0-967C-972927BB4400@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A575171.100@rubidium.dyndns.org> Neville Michie wrote: > Regarding the effect of solar eclipse on timekeepers, > The obvious variables of gravity and temperature can be monitored, > but what about neutrino flux? > There is quite a lot of neutrino energy passing through the planet > and it would take a lump like the moon to make a significant change in > the flux. > Of course if the flux was a variable there would be a daily cycle, but > maybe > we can not separate that from other diurnal signals. > Just and idea, > Cheers, Neville Michie Uhm... considering the efforts being put into detecting neutrinos, I think the connection to crystal oscillators is sufficiently low to be burried deep in the noise of the other sources. Cheers, Magnus From jmfranke at cox.net Fri Jul 10 14:57:41 2009 From: jmfranke at cox.net (jmfranke) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 10:57:41 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] FW: For Sale HP Z3801A References: <196901ca0169$fc8b4560$f5a1d020$@com> Message-ID: What is your asking price? John -------------------------------------------------- From: "Don Garlick" Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 10:23 AM To: Subject: [time-nuts] FW: For Sale HP Z3801A > I tried to take this off list but no one answered. > > Answers to prior questions: > Good cosmetic condition > Can deal with checks > Do not remember the antenna it has preamp and is conical in shape > It is changed to RS-232 > > I have a 8 channel replacement sat RX to make an update > I have a power supply to run it also > To view the HP Z3801A operation before the computer crashed > > Go to http://gps.garlickfamily.org > > > I can make pictures if needed. > > Thanks > Don > don at k7tsv.com > > ============================================ > > > I have a Z3801A in operating condition. > > The computer it was connected to lost it's hard drive and > I have fallen on hard financial times. So I need to sell the > Z3801A and pay some bills. > > Please reply off list. > > Thank you > don at k7tsv.com > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.0/2209 - Release Date: 07/08/09 > 05:53:00 > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From SAIDJACK at aol.com Fri Jul 10 18:22:39 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:22:39 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX Message-ID: Hi Ulrich, any chance you could send me a list of commands you utility uses as a minimum command-set so I can cross-check against our Fury/FireFly GPSDO's? There are lots of folks on this list that have our units, and it would be great if we could get it up and running for our interface as an alternative to GPSCon. Thanks, Said In a message dated 7/10/2009 07:17:31 Pacific Daylight Time, df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: Guys, after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and Kit) there is a stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the Z3801, the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From wpxs472 at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 20:27:42 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:27:42 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost multifrequency reference Message-ID: This really more about frequency than time but I thought it might be of interest. The Agilent 8920 series of instruments have an A15 module, the reference, which takes an external 10 MHz input and locks an internal TCXO to it then producing 1 GHz, 500 MHz, 20 MHz, 10 MHz, 1 MHz or 200 KHz outputs. I have an 08920-61191 which seems to be identical to the 08920-60319. They are available on eBay sometimes for around $40 to $50. I plan on locking the 8920 here at work to my Z3801, an OCXO or TCXO I want to compare to the ref in of the module, and counting the 1 GHz output with the 8920. This will multiply the error between the two 10 MHz sources by 100 making drift easier to see. Probably not the best way to do it, but quick and easy. Documentation is available on the Agilent website. From lists at cq.nu Fri Jul 10 22:04:49 2009 From: lists at cq.nu (Bob Camp) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 18:04:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <4A5612F3.9020502@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <568bf7b932bc8c3d6f9b3521d4a80cd7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> <04F11592-71B2-4BC4-8247-12F997502784@cq.nu> <4A5611D5.8000702@karlquist.com> <4A5612F3.9020502@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <405B7045-393C-43C3-8838-6D66D0DE6889@cq.nu> On Jul 9, 2009, at 11:55 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: > Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: >> Bob Camp wrote: >>> Hi >>> >>> I think that if you dig into it, you will find that there is a >>> polarized light process to orient the blank before the base plate >>> is applied. >>> >>> Unfortunately for the discussion at hand, the direction of maximum >>> G sensitivity is still random relative to the mount. >>> >>> Bob >>> KB8TQ >> To clarify: the crystal PACKAGE (base plate) is randomly oriented >> in the 10811 casting. Therefore, it doesn't matter if the blank is >> positioned in some definite orientation with respect to the base >> plate. > > Around the blanks rotational axis I assume. That should stay the > same, right? It's just one rotational freedom and not three that is > there. > > Cheers, > Magnus > Hi Yes, the blank is round and you need to figure out which way to rotate it within the crystal holder. The idea is to minimize mount stress. It's done on both double rotated crystals and on AT's. Since in-plane mount stress is not the "whole story" in terms of G sensitivity, you still get a random orientation (within the plane) for the G sensitivity vector. Bob KB8TQ From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 10 22:51:12 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 15:51:12 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> Message-ID: <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> > One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they > are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational > acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th > or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never > touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency > standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some axis by 90 degrees. You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift in frequency as a function of axis. /tvb From saidjack at aol.com Fri Jul 10 23:34:03 2009 From: saidjack at aol.com (Said Jackson) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 16:34:03 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> Message-ID: <6AAC8A5C-625F-4910-87B5-3EDD672A951C@aol.com> Hello Tom, this plot looks very similar to our standard double oven units. We have our low-g option, which reduces the deviation to about 2- 3E-10 per g, they work great but do cost more than standard units.. Coincidentally they also reduce sensitivity to vibration and "tapping" by 5x to 10x... I wish we could offer them at the same price, but they are very difficult to manufacture. That's why no one uses them by default in their product. Bye, Said From iPhone On Jul 10, 2009, at 15:51, "Tom Van Baak" wrote: >> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). > > And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is > a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a > free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. > Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some > axis by 90 degrees. > > > > You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change > in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which > is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about > 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). > > Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the > so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. > Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing > at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. > > Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis > turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most > beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift > in frequency as a function of axis. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bg at lysator.liu.se Fri Jul 10 23:52:35 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:52:35 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <6AAC8A5C-625F-4910-87B5-3EDD672A951C@aol.com> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> <6AAC8A5C-625F-4910-87B5-3EDD672A951C@aol.com> Message-ID: <62806.87.227.52.225.1247269955.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Said & Tom, The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html Said, did you contemplate adding a cheap 3d-accelerometer and try to teach your holdover algorithms use the accelerometer measurements in the same way as your temperature measurements? -- Bj?rn > Hello Tom, > > this plot looks very similar to our standard double oven units. We > have our low-g option, which reduces the deviation to about 2- 3E-10 > per g, they work great but do cost more than standard units.. > Coincidentally they also reduce sensitivity to vibration and "tapping" > by 5x to 10x... I wish we could offer them at the same price, but they > are very difficult to manufacture. That's why no one uses them by > default in their product. > > Bye, Said > > > > From iPhone > > On Jul 10, 2009, at 15:51, "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > >>> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >>> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >>> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >>> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >>> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >>> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >> >> And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is >> a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a >> free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. >> Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some >> axis by 90 degrees. >> >> >> >> You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change >> in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which >> is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about >> 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). >> >> Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the >> so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. >> Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing >> at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. >> >> Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis >> turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most >> beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift >> in frequency as a function of axis. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sat Jul 11 02:45:12 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 19:45:12 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52><0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52><6AAC8A5C-625F-4910-87B5-3EDD672A951C@aol.com> <62806.87.227.52.225.1247269955.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <6F02BE13FF0E46FAACB0D9F2AEE64091@pc52> > Hi Said & Tom, > > The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. > > http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html > > Said, did you contemplate adding a cheap 3d-accelerometer and try to teach > your holdover algorithms use the accelerometer measurements in the same > way as your temperature measurements? Bj?rn, That's a very nice set of g-compensation papers and patents. Thanks for the pointer. Antonio, you may want to read them - for additional insights into your eclipse project. /tvb From aceamusements at mchsi.com Sat Jul 11 02:57:35 2009 From: aceamusements at mchsi.com (aceamusements at mchsi.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 02:57:35 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <071120090257.9324.4A57FF9F0004DD3A0000246C223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C9B020A030A9C9A030E0A0C0E@mchsi.com> I have a similar question I have 2 hp 5071a and I purchased one new in the box never opened and one used.both have been in operation over a year, the new one high perf tube new style tube US4240 started out in storage for two years before I plugged it in for the first time..the pump went right down to .2 -.4ua as normal but as time has gone by it has risen (lineraly) to almost 11.0uA (I think this may not be good). the elect mult volts on this tube started out about 1500 and droped within 6 months to 1150 and has stayed there. my other used unit has a pump current of 0.0 or 0.2 all the time and a mult of 1430 (stays steady also)been like that for months but the new unit continues to rise(pump current).have tried turning off the cs oven and leaving on the pump but with no avil is this new tube heading twd an early death? -------------- Original message from "John Miles" : -------------- > > > > > I have a 5061A and 5061B and both have a position on their front > > panel MODE > > switch that is CS OFF. When in this position the CS OVEN is off, the OSC > > OVEN is on, the ION PUMP is working and there is signal out (10 > > MHz, 5 MHz, > > 1 MHz, 100 KHz, as appropriate) as measured by the CIRCUIT CHECK meter. > > > > Is the 5062C different? Is there something I am missing here? I > > guess I do > > not understand the need to 'add a switch' unless it is the desire to only > > run the ION PUMP and the OSC OVEN but not the OSC or anything else. > > Right; there was no CS OFF switch on the 5062C. You can open the loop, but > that's it. I could have run the ion pump supply from the rear panel, but > that would have taken a separate power supply, and would have left the > crystal oven cold. > > It sounds like the switch I added does essentially the same thing as the one > you're talking about. In your case you could maximize tube life by leaving > that switch set to CS OFF except when needed. That doesn't answer the > question of how long the Cs tube needs in order to meet specs, but > presumably the manual would...? I'd be curious to hear the answer myself. > > > The one thing I have noticed is the incredible stability of the crystal > > oscillators for weeks at a time as compared to my Thunderbolt. > > On the order > > of 0.1 Hz at 10 MHz after a week. > > The Thunderbolt should be in that ballpark (being only 1E-8 per week) when > undisciplined, and of course much better when GPS-locked. A good OCXO, when > not locked to anything else, should stay put to the tune of 1E-10 to 5E-10 > per day. > > The HP 10543 oscillator in my 5062C had a bad case of near-constant phase > jumps, so I have a Wenzel Timekeeper-class unit in there now, plus an x2 > doubler to get 10 MHz out the front panel. I'm not sure I have the loop > bandwidth optimized for it yet, but at least it locks up nicely and doesn't > jump. > > -- john, KE5FX > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 11 03:08:47 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 03:08:47 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long..." Are both your units the high-performance version? These units get their performance boost by doubling the beam current... at the expense of half the life. As a side "benefit" of the increased beam current, you can get increased outgasing of contaminants in the tube/cesium supply. _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From cdelect at juno.com Sat Jul 11 03:29:36 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:29:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5071A ion pump current rising Message-ID: <20090710.202936.2944.0.cdelect@juno.com> John, The protective circuit wont turn off the oven until you exceed approx. 40-45ua on the ion pump reading. Hard to say if you will reach end of life from other factors first given that it is a high performance unit. They have a much shorter life than a standard tube. It is sometimes possible to clear the whisker from the ion pump and return to a normal current value. Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click now and enjoy a fantastic vacation in the wine country. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTHhwhGyaFV657WfVW3Iqi5Cuy0Tu5xURbu1lXbnh3tlLQnnEK1ShC/ From jmiles at pop.net Sat Jul 11 04:03:43 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:03:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: <071120090257.9324.4A57FF9F0004DD3A0000246C223245003003010CD2079C080C03BF9C9B020A030A9C9A030E0A0C0E@mchsi.com> Message-ID: You're right, at 11 ua, that 5071A is pretty much hosed. I'd be surprised if it knows what day it is. You'd better cut your losses and send it to me before it gets any worse. Cesium is a hazardous material, not that there's much left in this particular unit, and you don't want to be stuck having to throw anything away that contains it. There's all sorts of red tape, up to and including EPA fines and prison time. That said, I could reimburse the cost of shipping, to defray the inevitable expenses associated with disposal. Do you take PayPal? Seriously, the manual says 0-40 uA is the 'typical' range, so I wouldn't be inclined to worry about it. It could be an artifact of the high-performance tube, for that matter. You might open the unit up and measure the current yourself, to make sure the monitoring circuit isn't lying to you for some reason. Looks like pages 68 and 127-129 of the service manual .pdf cover ion-pump supply verification. Have you tried those procedures yet? -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of aceamusements at mchsi.com > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 7:58 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life > > > > > I have a similar question I have 2 hp 5071a and I purchased one > new in the box never opened and one used.both have been in > operation over a year, the new one high perf tube new style tube > US4240 started out in storage for two years before I plugged it > in for the first time..the pump went right down to .2 -.4ua as > normal but as time has gone by it has risen (lineraly) to almost > 11.0uA (I think this may not be good). the elect mult volts on > this tube started out about 1500 and droped within 6 months to > 1150 and has stayed there. > > my other used unit has a pump current of 0.0 or 0.2 all the time > and a mult of 1430 (stays steady also)been like that for months > but the new unit continues to rise(pump current).have tried > turning off the cs oven and leaving on the pump but with no avil > is this new tube heading twd an early death? > From jmiles at pop.net Sat Jul 11 04:11:18 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:11:18 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long..." > > Are both your units the high-performance version? These units > get their performance boost by doubling the beam current... at > the expense of half the life. As a side "benefit" of the > increased beam current, you can get increased outgasing of > contaminants in the tube/cesium supply. That was my initial guess, but it sounded like it didn't help when he left it in standby mode with the Cs oven powered down. That argues in favor of plain old envelope leakage, unless there's some other mechanism I'm not thinking of. It makes sense to verify the current first. -- john, KE5FX From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sat Jul 11 07:47:16 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 09:47:16 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Said, not necessary to supply you with a list: Just start the software and open the debug window. You will see all serial communication action. With no device connected just the commands will appeear one below the other. You can use the "window hold" option of the debug window to defeat the scrolling. There is also a second option: If you supply ME a list of commands that your devices understand then I can detect the device type by the answer to *IDN? and ask the devices just what they understand and leave everything else out. That is the stategy that the software already uses to cover the Z3801/5/15 and the GCRU. Best regards Ulrich > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von SAIDJACK at aol.com > Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2009 20:23 > An: time-nuts at febo.com > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX > > > Hi Ulrich, > > any chance you could send me a list of commands you utility > uses as a > minimum command-set so I can cross-check against our > Fury/FireFly GPSDO's? > > There are lots of folks on this list that have our units, and > it would be > great if we could get it up and running for our interface as > an alternative > to GPSCon. > > Thanks, > Said > > > In a message dated 7/10/2009 07:17:31 Pacific Daylight Time, > df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: > > Guys, > > after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and > Kit) there is > a > stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the > Z3801, the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. > > It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! > > Ulrich Bangert > www.ulrich-bangert.de > Ortholzer Weg 1 > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sat Jul 11 08:44:15 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 10:44:15 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6E16CC078657407284EC8ABD442F9006@athlon> Guys, I just uploaded a new version that features an additional sat c/n chart. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Ulrich Bangert > Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Juli 2009 09:47 > An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX > > > Hi Said, > > not necessary to supply you with a list: Just start the > software and open the debug window. You will see all serial > communication action. With no device connected just the > commands will appeear one below the other. You can use the > "window hold" option of the debug window to defeat the scrolling. > > There is also a second option: If you supply ME a list of > commands that your devices understand then I can detect the > device type by the answer to *IDN? and ask the devices just > what they understand and leave everything else out. That is > the stategy that the software already uses to cover the > Z3801/5/15 and the GCRU. > > Best regards > Ulrich > > > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von SAIDJACK at aol.com > > Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2009 20:23 > > An: time-nuts at febo.com > > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX > > > > > > Hi Ulrich, > > > > any chance you could send me a list of commands you utility > > uses as a > > minimum command-set so I can cross-check against our > > Fury/FireFly GPSDO's? > > > > There are lots of folks on this list that have our units, and > > it would be > > great if we could get it up and running for our interface as > > an alternative > > to GPSCon. > > > > Thanks, > > Said > > > > > > In a message dated 7/10/2009 07:17:31 Pacific Daylight Time, > > df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: > > > > Guys, > > > > after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and > > Kit) there is > > a > > stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the > > Z3801, the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. > > > > It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! > > > > Ulrich Bangert > > www.ulrich-bangert.de > > Ortholzer Weg 1 > > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sat Jul 11 08:47:04 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 04:47:04 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Hello Bjoern, that would work well for static acceleration (tilt) but for vibration resistance the crystal must be low-g, or complexly compensated with wide loop bandwidths such as the FEI papers describe. Initial Calibration would also be tricky, and having an algorithm to measure one result (frequency) against five inputs (aging, tempco, X, Y, Z acceleration) and more (crystal jumps, retrace) is also quite sophisticated :) Also, Mems, or other accelerometers have inherent noise, and to compensate a crystal that has say +/-2E-09 per g sensitivity means one would have to add up to +/-2E-09 in offset statically. That's a lot of deviation, and any noise from the mems would find its way into the Allan Variance/phase-noise. For vibration compensation, the compensation could easily go up to +/-1.2E-08 and more (for up to +/-6G vibration to be canceled). Very interesting topic, and I would love to hear what folks think about this, or have come up with in terms of solutions. At the high-end of the spectrum of the technology is the gun-barrel launched artillery shell with crystal oscillator built-in, that has to withstand and operate with 10,000 to 20,000 g acceleration! One caveat for the artillery shell: commercial GPS would likely not work due to the 1000 Knots verlocity limit. bye, Said In a message dated 7/10/2009 16:53:23 Pacific Daylight Time, bg at lysator.liu.se writes: Hi Said & Tom, The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html Said, did you contemplate adding a cheap 3d-accelerometer and try to teach your holdover algorithms use the accelerometer measurements in the same way as your temperature measurements? -- Bj?rn > Hello Tom, > > this plot looks very similar to our standard double oven units. We > have our low-g option, which reduces the deviation to about 2- 3E-10 > per g, they work great but do cost more than standard units.. > Coincidentally they also reduce sensitivity to vibration and "tapping" > by 5x to 10x... I wish we could offer them at the same price, but they > are very difficult to manufacture. That's why no one uses them by > default in their product. > > Bye, Said > > > > From iPhone > > On Jul 10, 2009, at 15:51, "Tom Van Baak" wrote: > >>> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >>> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >>> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >>> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >>> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >>> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >> >> And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is >> a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a >> free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. >> Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some >> axis by 90 degrees. >> >> >> >> You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change >> in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which >> is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about >> 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). >> >> Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the >> so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. >> Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing >> at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. >> >> Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis >> turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most >> beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift >> in frequency as a function of axis. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sat Jul 11 08:50:15 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 04:50:15 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX Message-ID: Hi Ulrich, I will try this tomorrow. In the meantime, as requested please find a minimum list of our supported software commands for our FireFly GPSDO's here, starting on page 7: _http://www.jackson-labs.com/docs/FireFly_quickstart.pdf_ (http://www.jackson-labs.com/docs/FireFly_quickstart.pdf) thanks, Said In a message dated 7/11/2009 01:45:10 Pacific Daylight Time, df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: Guys, I just uploaded a new version that features an additional sat c/n chart. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert From bg at lysator.liu.se Sat Jul 11 09:55:03 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:55:03 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50119.87.227.52.225.1247306103.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Said, What GPSDO-products do compensate for tilt? It seem like a major error source -- if the user for some reason want to tilt a unit in holdover. It seems to be a "low hanging fruit" to attenuate this error substantially even with a $2 MEMS accelerometer. Once the ambitions grow -- more complexities can be added. Then again, is there a use-case giving some hope the engineering costs can be regained. -- Bj?rn > Hello Bjoern, > > that would work well for static acceleration (tilt) but for vibration > resistance the crystal must be low-g, or complexly compensated with wide > loop > bandwidths such as the FEI papers describe. > > Initial Calibration would also be tricky, and having an algorithm to > measure one result (frequency) against five inputs (aging, tempco, X, Y, Z > acceleration) and more (crystal jumps, retrace) is also quite > sophisticated :) > > Also, Mems, or other accelerometers have inherent noise, and to > compensate a crystal that has say +/-2E-09 per g sensitivity means one > would have to > add up to +/-2E-09 in offset statically. That's a lot of deviation, and > any noise from the mems would find its way into the Allan > Variance/phase-noise. > > For vibration compensation, the compensation could easily go up to > +/-1.2E-08 and more (for up to +/-6G vibration to be canceled). > > Very interesting topic, and I would love to hear what folks think about > this, or have come up with in terms of solutions. > > At the high-end of the spectrum of the technology is the gun-barrel > launched artillery shell with crystal oscillator built-in, that has to > withstand > and operate with 10,000 to 20,000 g acceleration! > > One caveat for the artillery shell: commercial GPS would likely not work > due to the 1000 Knots verlocity limit. > > bye, > Said > > > In a message dated 7/10/2009 16:53:23 Pacific Daylight Time, > bg at lysator.liu.se writes: > > Hi Said & Tom, > > The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. > > http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html > > Said, did you contemplate adding a cheap 3d-accelerometer and try to > teach > your holdover algorithms use the accelerometer measurements in the same > way as your temperature measurements? > > -- > > Bj?rn > >> Hello Tom, >> >> this plot looks very similar to our standard double oven units. We >> have our low-g option, which reduces the deviation to about 2- 3E-10 >> per g, they work great but do cost more than standard units.. >> Coincidentally they also reduce sensitivity to vibration and "tapping" >> by 5x to 10x... I wish we could offer them at the same price, but they >> are very difficult to manufacture. That's why no one uses them by >> default in their product. >> >> Bye, Said >> >> >> >> From iPhone >> >> On Jul 10, 2009, at 15:51, "Tom Van Baak" wrote: >> >>>> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >>>> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >>>> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >>>> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >>>> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >>>> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >>> >>> And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is >>> a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a >>> free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. >>> Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some >>> axis by 90 degrees. >>> >>> >>> >>> You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change >>> in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which >>> is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about >>> 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). >>> >>> Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the >>> so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. >>> Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing >>> at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. >>> >>> Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis >>> turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most >>> beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift >>> in frequency as a function of axis. >>> >>> /tvb >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 11:07:52 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 23:07:52 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80907110407x2bea973di632480237d057e76@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ulrich, Nice work! I'm running this under wine on Linux and it works just like a dream. The logs go out to the directory that the exe is started and it seems to be fine with my Z3805A. I did get some error messages in the debug log (which I did not log to a file in time) and they also appear in the error log which is:- 2009-07-11 10:48:40: -362,"Framing error in program message" 2009-07-11 10:49:30: -230,"Data corrupt or stale" 2009-07-11 10:49:40: -230,"Data corrupt or stale" 2009-07-11 10:49:50: -230,"Data corrupt or stale" ... 2009-07-11 10:53:50: -230,"Data corrupt or stale" 2009-07-11 10:54:00: -230,"Data corrupt or stale" 2009-07-11 10:54:10: -350,"Queue overflow" but they have stopped now. BTW, this is a whole lot cheaper than a copy of GPSCon :-) Thanks & 73, Steve 2009/7/11 Ulrich Bangert : > Guys, > > after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and Kit) there is a > stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the Z3801, the > Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. > > It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! > > Ulrich Bangert > www.ulrich-bangert.de > Ortholzer Weg 1 > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 11 15:25:31 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:25:31 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A lot of the ballistic GPS systems are actually GPS transponders attached to the back of the shell. They just retransmit the received GPS signal spectrum to a remote receiver. Much cheaper and more robust than slinging a full GPS receiver. Google TIDGET for more info... ---------------------------------------- At the high-end of the spectrum of the technology is the gun-barrel launched artillery shell with crystal oscillator built-in, that has to withstand and operate with 10,000 to 20,000 g acceleration! _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From smace at intt.net Sat Jul 11 17:29:35 2009 From: smace at intt.net (Scott Mace) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 12:29:35 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A58CBFF.1050902@intt.net> Ulrich, I'm trying to run this against a Fury and z38xx doesn't seem to keep the 115200 baud setting, it just changes back to 57600. Scott On 07/11/2009 02:47 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote: > Hi Said, > > not necessary to supply you with a list: Just start the software and open > the debug window. You will see all serial communication action. With no > device connected just the commands will appeear one below the other. You can > use the "window hold" option of the debug window to defeat the scrolling. > > There is also a second option: If you supply ME a list of commands that your > devices understand then I can detect the device type by the answer to *IDN? > and ask the devices just what they understand and leave everything else out. > That is the stategy that the software already uses to cover the Z3801/5/15 > and the GCRU. > > Best regards > Ulrich > >> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von SAIDJACK at aol.com >> Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2009 20:23 >> An: time-nuts at febo.com >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX >> >> >> Hi Ulrich, >> >> any chance you could send me a list of commands you utility >> uses as a >> minimum command-set so I can cross-check against our >> Fury/FireFly GPSDO's? >> >> There are lots of folks on this list that have our units, and >> it would be >> great if we could get it up and running for our interface as >> an alternative >> to GPSCon. >> >> Thanks, >> Said >> >> >> In a message dated 7/10/2009 07:17:31 Pacific Daylight Time, >> df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: >> >> Guys, >> >> after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and >> Kit) there is >> a >> stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles the >> Z3801, the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. >> >> It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! >> >> Ulrich Bangert >> www.ulrich-bangert.de >> Ortholzer Weg 1 >> 27243 Gross Ippener >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From lists at cq.nu Sat Jul 11 18:53:45 2009 From: lists at cq.nu (Bob Camp) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:53:45 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <50119.87.227.52.225.1247306103.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <50119.87.227.52.225.1247306103.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: Hi Most of the GPSDO stuff is made for fixed location use. In that case, paying for acceleration compensation doesn't make much sense. About the only people who try to do this stuff mobile (and have the ability to pay) are the military. Bob KB8TQ On Jul 11, 2009, at 5:55 AM, bg at lysator.liu.se wrote: > Hi Said, > > What GPSDO-products do compensate for tilt? > > It seem like a major error source -- if the user for some reason > want to > tilt a unit in holdover. It seems to be a "low hanging fruit" to > attenuate > this error substantially even with a $2 MEMS accelerometer. > > Once the ambitions grow -- more complexities can be added. > > Then again, is there a use-case giving some hope the engineering > costs can > be regained. > > -- > > Bj?rn > >> Hello Bjoern, >> >> that would work well for static acceleration (tilt) but for vibration >> resistance the crystal must be low-g, or complexly compensated with >> wide >> loop >> bandwidths such as the FEI papers describe. >> >> Initial Calibration would also be tricky, and having an algorithm to >> measure one result (frequency) against five inputs (aging, tempco, >> X, Y, Z >> acceleration) and more (crystal jumps, retrace) is also quite >> sophisticated :) >> >> Also, Mems, or other accelerometers have inherent noise, and to >> compensate a crystal that has say +/-2E-09 per g sensitivity means >> one >> would have to >> add up to +/-2E-09 in offset statically. That's a lot of deviation, >> and >> any noise from the mems would find its way into the Allan >> Variance/phase-noise. >> >> For vibration compensation, the compensation could easily go up to >> +/-1.2E-08 and more (for up to +/-6G vibration to be canceled). >> >> Very interesting topic, and I would love to hear what folks think >> about >> this, or have come up with in terms of solutions. >> >> At the high-end of the spectrum of the technology is the gun-barrel >> launched artillery shell with crystal oscillator built-in, that has >> to >> withstand >> and operate with 10,000 to 20,000 g acceleration! >> >> One caveat for the artillery shell: commercial GPS would likely >> not work >> due to the 1000 Knots verlocity limit. >> >> bye, >> Said >> >> >> In a message dated 7/10/2009 16:53:23 Pacific Daylight Time, >> bg at lysator.liu.se writes: >> >> Hi Said & Tom, >> >> The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. >> >> http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html >> >> Said, did you contemplate adding a cheap 3d-accelerometer and try to >> teach >> your holdover algorithms use the accelerometer measurements in the >> same >> way as your temperature measurements? >> >> -- >> >> Bj?rn >> >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> this plot looks very similar to our standard double oven units. We >>> have our low-g option, which reduces the deviation to about 2- >>> 3E-10 >>> per g, they work great but do cost more than standard units.. >>> Coincidentally they also reduce sensitivity to vibration and >>> "tapping" >>> by 5x to 10x... I wish we could offer them at the same price, but >>> they >>> are very difficult to manufacture. That's why no one uses them by >>> default in their product. >>> >>> Bye, Said >>> >>> >>> >>> From iPhone >>> >>> On Jul 10, 2009, at 15:51, "Tom Van Baak" >>> wrote: >>> >>>>> One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >>>>> are turned. The answer to that is yes. This gravitational >>>>> acceleration effect is rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th >>>>> or so, and anyone can see this. This is why you never >>>>> touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory frequency >>>>> standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >>>> >>>> And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here is >>>> a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a >>>> free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. >>>> Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some >>>> axis by 90 degrees. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change >>>> in g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which >>>> is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about >>>> 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). >>>> >>>> Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; the >>>> so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. >>>> Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision timing >>>> at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. >>>> >>>> Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable 3-axis >>>> turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly create a most >>>> beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing the precise shift >>>> in frequency as a function of axis. >>>> >>>> /tvb >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From didier at cox.net Sat Jul 11 19:54:23 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:54:23 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> Message-ID: That is interestng and brings a question that I should be able to answer but have been too busy (or lazy...) to try... The HP 5370 has a noisy fan, and an HP 10811 in the same box. Has anyone been curious enough to measure the effect of fan vibration on the oscillator and p-p noise on TI measurements? Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:51 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > > > One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they > are turned. > > The answer to that is yes. This gravitational acceleration > effect is > > rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th or so, and anyone can > see this. > > This is why you never touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory > > frequency standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). > > And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here > is a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a > free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. > Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some > axis by 90 degrees. > > > > You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change in > g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which > is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about > 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). > > Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; > the so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. > Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision > timing at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. > > Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable > 3-axis turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly > create a most beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing > the precise shift in frequency as a function of axis. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 11 21:21:25 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 14:21:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: Message from bg@lysator.liu.se of "Sat, 11 Jul 2009 11:55:03 +0200." <50119.87.227.52.225.1247306103.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: <20090711212126.913E0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> bg at lysator.liu.se said: > What GPSDO-products do compensate for tilt? > It seem like a major error source -- if the user for some reason want > to tilt a unit in holdover. I would assume most GPSDOs are rack mounted and are unlikely to get tilted. If tilt is this interesting, it should show up in data sheets. I just took a look at the Thunderbolt. It's got a max temperature change spec on the holdover but no mention of tilt. I didn't find any tilt type specs in the Z3801A manual. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From bhome at sympatico.ca Sat Jul 11 21:26:49 2009 From: bhome at sympatico.ca (Chris Bridge) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:26:49 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS frequency standard help Message-ID: Hi All, This is my first post here, the second that John will see. The amount of information available is staggering (to me anyway). I am new to the idea of GPS, and have only listened to the WWV 5, 10 and 15 MHz stations way back in high school. That would be about 33 years ago now I guess. These days I have a basement electronics lab and would really like to have a GPS type 10 MHz clock to synchronize all my equipment. It's mostly HP, the most critical would be a 5535A universal counter and a 3585A spectrum analyzer. My problem? I know zero about GPS frequency standards and I would really like some help in order to get set up correctly if possible. I need to buy a receiver with oscillator I guess, and an antenna. I'm located near Toronto, Ontario in Canada. Once I have a frequency standard running, I'll have to build a distribution amplifier for it as well. I see they are pretty expensive to buy. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Until then, I'll bounce around here and try to educate myself some. I have read that HP Z3801 and similar models are easy to use. There is also a Trimble (?) as well. I need guidance folks! Thank you, -Chris From brooke at pacific.net Sat Jul 11 22:15:00 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:15:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS frequency standard help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A590EE4.9050500@pacific.net> Hi Chris: The Trimble Thunderbolt may be just what you're looking for. It's a combined GPS receiver and Disciplined Oscillator (GPSDO). So, unlike in the past where you needed to tweak the crystal oscillator every 6 months, it's always spot on frequency (as long as you are receiving at least one GPS satellite. See: http://www.prc68.com/Alpha.shtml#T There may be another Time-Nuts group buy coming up. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Chris Bridge wrote: > Hi All, > This is my first post here, the second that John will see. The amount > of information available is staggering (to me anyway). > > I am new to the idea of GPS, and have only listened to the WWV 5, 10 > and 15 MHz stations way back in high school. That would be about 33 > years ago now I guess. These days I have a basement electronics lab and > would really like to have a GPS type 10 MHz clock to synchronize all my > equipment. It's mostly HP, the most critical would be a 5535A universal > counter and a 3585A spectrum analyzer. My problem? I know zero about > GPS frequency standards and I would really like some help in order to > get set up correctly if possible. I need to buy a receiver with > oscillator I guess, and an antenna. I'm located near Toronto, Ontario > in Canada. > > Once I have a frequency standard running, I'll have to build a > distribution amplifier for it as well. I see they are pretty expensive > to buy. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Until then, I'll bounce > around here and try to educate myself some. I have read that HP Z3801 > and similar models are easy to use. There is also a Trimble (?) as > well. I need guidance folks! > > Thank you, -Chris > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sat Jul 11 22:17:10 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 15:17:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS frequency standard help In-Reply-To: Message from Chris Bridge of "Sat, 11 Jul 2009 17:26:49 EDT." Message-ID: <20090711221711.559F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Once I have a frequency standard running, I'll have to build a > distribution amplifier for it as well. I see they are pretty > expensive to buy. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Until then, > I'll bounce around here and try to educate myself some. I have read > that HP Z3801 and similar models are easy to use. There is also a > Trimble (?) as well. I need guidance folks! I expect you will be happy with either a Z3801A or the Trimble Thunderbolt (TBolt). You need an antenna. The Z3801A was easily available a couple of years ago. They are less common now. There are usually a couple available on eBay. Recently they have been coming from China. A few days ago Don Garlick announced (on this list) that he is trying to sell one. A year or two ago, tvb got a great deal on a batch of TBolts and power supplies. Last Tuesday he said he is very close to another batch. Stay tuned for details. TAPR sells a distribution amplifier for ~$100. http://tapr.org/kits_tadd-1.html -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sun Jul 12 00:05:06 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:05:06 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Very interesting technology! I would think that the re-transmitter will need a crystal as well for carrier generation and GPS reception, and maybe that the data needs to be time-stamped so as to know when the data was captured? Several TCXO vendors do advertise 10,000g capability on their websites, and I am quite amazed by this knowing just how sensitive oscillators usually are.. bye, Said In a message dated 7/11/2009 08:26:22 Pacific Daylight Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: A lot of the ballistic GPS systems are actually GPS transponders attached to the back of the shell. They just retransmit the received GPS signal spectrum to a remote receiver. Much cheaper and more robust than slinging a full GPS receiver. Google TIDGET for more info... From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sun Jul 12 00:13:00 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 20:13:00 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Hi Bjoern, as mentioned by someone else, most g-insensitive GPSDO products are probably going into military applications. But I could think of a number of commercial applications where a GPSDO is used in a vehicle and exposed to some tilt and lot's of vibration and vehicle acceleration. Also, if one needs ultra-low phase-noise, then a low-g OCXO will reduce any vibration/shock-induced error to show up on the output, as could be produced by a fan or other noise/vibration source. Satellite uplinks come to mind here. Or the house-cleaner running the vacuum cleaner through the lab... bye, Said In a message dated 7/11/2009 02:56:18 Pacific Daylight Time, bg at lysator.liu.se writes: Hi Said, What GPSDO-products do compensate for tilt? It seem like a major error source -- if the user for some reason want to tilt a unit in holdover. It seems to be a "low hanging fruit" to attenuate this error substantially even with a $2 MEMS accelerometer. Once the ambitions grow -- more complexities can be added. Then again, is there a use-case giving some hope the engineering costs can be regained. From kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 03:11:43 2009 From: kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com (Brian Kirby) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 22:11:43 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB Message-ID: <4A59546F.3040209@gmail.com> I ordered a Prologix GPIB-USB controller and it has arrived. I got it up and going so fast, and I am very pleased to have a working solution for capturing data. I have tried several cheap adapters and they have not worked. In my case I needed a controller to record time interval data from my HP5370B. Many of us also use HP53131A and they have a easy serial port to configure. I also plan to use the Prologix adapter on my HP3456A and HPP3457A multimeters. You basically plug the controller into a PC and let WIndows XP install its USB drivers for the device. Then you install the FTDI drivers that you have to download. Then I used John Miles "Prologix.exe" program with the default configuration and I could see data coming in the terminal window. Stop the program and bring up Hyperterminal and start recording data. Brian KD4FM From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 12 10:07:38 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:07:38 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A59B5EA.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org> Said and Bj?rn, SAIDJACK at aol.com wrote: > Hello Bjoern, > > that would work well for static acceleration (tilt) but for vibration > resistance the crystal must be low-g, or complexly compensated with wide loop > bandwidths such as the FEI papers describe. It could work for low-frequency compensation, as it would take a bit more analysis to figure out the impulse response needing of compensation/equalisation. > Initial Calibration would also be tricky, and having an algorithm to > measure one result (frequency) against five inputs (aging, tempco, X, Y, Z > acceleration) and more (crystal jumps, retrace) is also quite sophisticated :) But hey, we are time-nuts, arn't we? :) > Also, Mems, or other accelerometers have inherent noise, and to > compensate a crystal that has say +/-2E-09 per g sensitivity means one would have to > add up to +/-2E-09 in offset statically. That's a lot of deviation, and > any noise from the mems would find its way into the Allan > Variance/phase-noise. Which is scaled by the g-sensitivity of the crystal. If you have a g-sensitivity of 2E-6 of the crystal and then compensate that with a noise of 2E-9 you would end up with a 4E-15 noise contribution. Right? Now, that was assuming white-noise... the 1/f noise sources needs to be estimated for real performance, as they behave differently in ADEV. > For vibration compensation, the compensation could easily go up to > +/-1.2E-08 and more (for up to +/-6G vibration to be canceled). > > Very interesting topic, and I would love to hear what folks think about > this, or have come up with in terms of solutions. > > At the high-end of the spectrum of the technology is the gun-barrel > launched artillery shell with crystal oscillator built-in, that has to withstand > and operate with 10,000 to 20,000 g acceleration! Hence the military and related industry have worked alot on figuring out how to handle it. Using two crystal blanks in opposite direction to subtract the vector-field of the g-sensitivity is one way. The patents for that is available. > One caveat for the artillery shell: commercial GPS would likely not work > due to the 1000 Knots verlocity limit. Not an issue for military receivers, but they need to be built for it not to break at the moment of fire rather than the moment of impact. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 12 10:14:06 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:14:06 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52> <0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> Message-ID: <4A59B76E.7000405@rubidium.dyndns.org> Didier wrote: > That is interestng and brings a question that I should be able to answer but > have been too busy (or lazy...) to try... > > The HP 5370 has a noisy fan, and an HP 10811 in the same box. Has anyone > been curious enough to measure the effect of fan vibration on the oscillator > and p-p noise on TI measurements? Notice how the 10811 sits in its own little quiet space airflow-wise. Once the buffer-board has it's 10 MHz presence detector disabled, you could measure the phase-noise of the 10811 on the 10 MHz output. You could compare that with the result of the same 10811 sitting on the quiet bench (keep it covered by a small box). Cheers, Magnus From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sun Jul 12 12:50:03 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:50:03 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB In-Reply-To: <4A59546F.3040209@gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian, > terminal window. Stop the program and bring up Hyperterminal > and start recording data.... and in case you need to perform something even sligthly more complex than just listen to a talker on the bus then you are a candidate for EZGPIB. Best regards Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Brian Kirby > Gesendet: Sonntag, 12. Juli 2009 05:12 > An: precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB > > > I ordered a Prologix GPIB-USB controller and it has arrived. > I got it > up and going so fast, and I am very pleased to have a working > solution > for capturing data. I have tried several cheap adapters and > they have > not worked. > > In my case I needed a controller to record time interval data from my > HP5370B. Many of us also use HP53131A and they have a easy > serial port > to configure. I also plan to use the Prologix adapter on my > HP3456A and > HPP3457A multimeters. > > You basically plug the controller into a PC and let WIndows > XP install > its USB drivers for the device. Then you install the FTDI > drivers that > you have to download. Then I used John Miles "Prologix.exe" program > with the default configuration and I could see data coming in the > terminal window. Stop the program and bring up Hyperterminal > and start > recording data. > > Brian KD4FM > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sun Jul 12 13:03:28 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 15:03:28 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX In-Reply-To: <4A58CBFF.1050902@intt.net> Message-ID: Gents, I just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: 1) 115200 Baud setting bug removed 2) Should now recognize JACKSON LABS products and use partial/changed SCPI command set on those (Need feedback on that!) 3) Possible bug in status screen interpretation removed 4) Can display a nice nixie-clock like window like the one attached (only on devices that supply an answer to PTIM:TCOD? command i.e. the real Z-devices, no Fury/FireFly/GCRU) 5) Can compute a linear fit to the EFC value and compute a relative OCXO frequency drift from that due to a user supplied value that constitutes the assumed relation between EFC and frequency. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Scott Mace > Gesendet: Samstag, 11. Juli 2009 19:30 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX > > > Ulrich, I'm trying to run this against a Fury and z38xx > doesn't seem to > keep the 115200 baud setting, it just changes back to 57600. > > Scott > > > On 07/11/2009 02:47 AM, Ulrich Bangert wrote: > > Hi Said, > > > > not necessary to supply you with a list: Just start the > software and > > open the debug window. You will see all serial > communication action. > > With no device connected just the commands will appeear one > below the > > other. You can use the "window hold" option of the debug window to > > defeat the scrolling. > > > > There is also a second option: If you supply ME a list of commands > > that your devices understand then I can detect the device > type by the > > answer to *IDN? and ask the devices just what they understand and > > leave everything else out. That is the stategy that the software > > already uses to cover the Z3801/5/15 and the GCRU. > > > > Best regards > > Ulrich > > > >> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > >> Im Auftrag von SAIDJACK at aol.com > >> Gesendet: Freitag, 10. Juli 2009 20:23 > >> An: time-nuts at febo.com > >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX > >> > >> > >> Hi Ulrich, > >> > >> any chance you could send me a list of commands you > utility uses as a > >> minimum command-set so I can cross-check against our > >> Fury/FireFly GPSDO's? > >> > >> There are lots of folks on this list that have our units, and it > >> would be great if we could get it up and running for our > interface as > >> an alternative > >> to GPSCon. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Said > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 7/10/2009 07:17:31 Pacific Daylight Time, > >> df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: > >> > >> Guys, > >> > >> after a lot of help coming from Australia (thank you Hal and > >> Kit) there is > >> a > >> stable version of my Z38XX utility available. It handles > the Z3801, > >> the Z3805, the Z3815 and the GCRU. > >> > >> It is available from the usual place. Enjoy! > >> > >> Ulrich Bangert > >> www.ulrich-bangert.de > >> Ortholzer Weg 1 > >> 27243 Gross Ippener > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Z38XXClock.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7361 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jmiles at pop.net Sun Jul 12 18:22:06 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 11:22:06 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I recently ran across a paper from the 1980 Frequency Control Symposium, in which HP and the USNO released their surveys on 5061/5062 failure modes. There was a special emphasis on beam-tube life, showing strong positive trends as HP got better at manufacturing the tubes in the 1970s: Longevity Performance of Cesium-Beam Frequency Standards http://www.ke5fx.com/cs_life.pdf (5 MB, 12 pages) The paper obviously doesn't apply directly to the 5071A tubes, which came out much later, but you can still clearly see the loss of service life associated with high-performance beam tubes in general. Seems that 5061A standard-perf tubes were way out in front of everyone else, back in the day. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Mark Sims > Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 8:09 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life > > > > "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long..." > > Are both your units the high-performance version? These units > get their performance boost by doubling the beam current... at > the expense of half the life. As a side "benefit" of the > increased beam current, you can get increased outgasing of > contaminants in the tube/cesium supply. > > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Jul 12 19:43:10 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 12:43:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Maximizing Cs Tube Life References: Message-ID: > "The candle that burns twice as bright, burns half as long..." I've heard, but have not verified myself, that 5071A high-performance tubes will last at least 7 years of continuous use and that 5071A standard-performance tubes can last around 20 years. For high-perf tubes end-of-life is usually due to running out of cesium. For standard-tubes the lifetime may be more limited by degradation of the electron multiplier than running out of cesium. I don't have specific information on oven temperatures, beam flux, ion velocity, EM gain, etc. so don't draw too many conclusions from the 7 vs. 20 number. If someone has more complete information that would be helpful. The question about tube life for those of us with surplus cesium standards is not simple -- over the decades there have been several cesium tube manufacturers (hp/Agilent, FTS/Datum, FEI) each with several product generations or models. Thanks, /tvb From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sun Jul 12 20:06:16 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:06:16 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: Hi Magnus, Agree with all your points. On the added noise due to an accelerometer, my thoughts are that this needs to be carefully designed so as not to add more error than we are actually removing (due to phase shifts between crystal sensitivity and the accelerometer response for example, and due to random noise). For example, if we do the compensation in the digital domain, and use a 10 bit ADC on the accelerometer, and a full-scale compensation is say 2E-09, then the quantization noise itself (1/2 of 1 LSB on average, or about 4E-013 just due to the quantization noise) may already be considerable. So we need to use a good ADC, and very low noise accelerometer :) While building and carefully calibrating a unit for Time-Nuts enjoyment is possible, I would think bringing such technology into large-scale mass production is quite a challenge. bye, Said In a message dated 7/12/2009 03:08:41 Pacific Daylight Time, magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org writes: > Also, Mems, or other accelerometers have inherent noise, and to > compensate a crystal that has say +/-2E-09 per g sensitivity means one would have to > add up to +/-2E-09 in offset statically. That's a lot of deviation, and > any noise from the mems would find its way into the Allan > Variance/phase-noise. Which is scaled by the g-sensitivity of the crystal. If you have a g-sensitivity of 2E-6 of the crystal and then compensate that with a noise of 2E-9 you would end up with a 4E-15 noise contribution. Right? From bhome at sympatico.ca Sun Jul 12 20:43:56 2009 From: bhome at sympatico.ca (Chris Bridge) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:43:56 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Purchasing a Trimble GPS timing solution Message-ID: Hi , I was pointed to an Ebay seller who has an entire kit available (from China of course). Not knowing the product or pricing any better, can I get a comment on this link please? http://cgi.ebay.ca/Thunderbolt-PRECISION-GPS-10Mhz-1PPS-Standard-Easy-Kit_W0QQitemZ170344432395QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27a951c30b&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A30 I hope I'm not breaking any rules here. I'm just trying to get the right thing at a half decent price. If the upcoming buy will include what I need, I can wait for it. I am worried about shipping and duty costs, UPS has proved to be a deadly foe in the past. I really want to thank everyone who has helped me out so far. Once I get this thing running, I can maybe report observations from it. I do plan to install a gel cell power backup in order to keep it online. We suffer power outages here many times a year. Dick, I looked on the site you gave me a link to for a price on a GPS unit. I couldn't find one. I ddi see a little more information (thank you). I ended up on the Trimble site. Again, no pricing, but I can look up some more information there too. Best regards & 73, Chris From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 12 21:21:04 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:21:04 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5A53C0.2030305@rubidium.dyndns.org> SAIDJACK at aol.com wrote: > Hi Magnus, > > Agree with all your points. :) > On the added noise due to an accelerometer, my thoughts are that this needs > to be carefully designed so as not to add more error than we are actually > removing (due to phase shifts between crystal sensitivity and the > accelerometer response for example, and due to random noise). > > For example, if we do the compensation in the digital domain, and use a 10 > bit ADC on the accelerometer, and a full-scale compensation is say 2E-09, > then the quantization noise itself (1/2 of 1 LSB on average, or about 4E-013 > just due to the quantization noise) may already be considerable. So we > need to use a good ADC, and very low noise accelerometer :) This is indeed a very good point. Blindfoldingly adding some compensation scheme could end up worse than it was originally. Still, some quantization noise may be tolerable than the much higher and not tolerable acceleration deviation. Thought, it is always good to get the extra margin. Far too many design become a hurdle due to a too small initial assumption on dynamics. > While building and carefully calibrating a unit for Time-Nuts enjoyment is > possible, I would think bringing such technology into large-scale mass > production is quite a challenge. Depends on what large-scale means. For some it could be 100-1000 units a year. It's not mobiles or something we are discussing. Yet. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 12 21:46:41 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:46:41 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Purchasing a Trimble GPS timing solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5A59C1.50705@rubidium.dyndns.org> Chris Bridge wrote: > Hi , > I was pointed to an Ebay seller who has an entire kit available (from > China of course). Not knowing the product or pricing any better, can I > get a comment on this link please? > http://cgi.ebay.ca/Thunderbolt-PRECISION-GPS-10Mhz-1PPS-Standard-Easy-Kit_W0QQitemZ170344432395QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27a951c30b&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262&_trkparms=|293%3A1|294%3A30 > > I hope I'm not breaking any rules here. I'm just trying to get the > right thing at a half decent price. If the upcoming buy will include > what I need, I can wait for it. I am worried about shipping and duty > costs, UPS has proved to be a deadly foe in the past. While that antenna isn't particularly good, it does get you up and running and as a starters kit you are getting a good start with that price. The Thunderbolts is a great start and probably suffice for many people. I am about to give one away together with a pair of counters to a friend in need. Should give him a flying start. As for the antenna, there are two things which makes me object somewhat to it. For one, the antenna has a bit short cable, so it prohibits you from optimal placement. You would want as much unobstructed sky-view as possible. The more horizon the better is the general rule. This allows more sats and hence better geometries and better solution. This is more important during surveying, but any errors built up during surveying of position will crank out time-errors later. More sats also enables noise and bias-sources to be reduced when time-navigation. The second objection is that I think it can be a bit weak on the amplification, which translates into problem with extending the cable. Also, the magnet is intended for car use, and I have a similar antenna on my car and it works fairly well for that task. It may not correlate well with how you want to mount your antenna. Don't get me wrong, it will work. It won't just be the best antenna in the long run. The good thing is, you will be up and running. You can get another antenna later and beef it up. A few of us has large Choke ring antennas. They provide better suppression of reflections and stable phase centers is usually associated with that. Using such an antenna with a Thunderbolt will work well, but is a bit over the top. Once the time-nut bug bites you hard, you are down that trail yourself. Then, next up is dual frequency receivers and antennas. Starts to be meaningfull if you are running a Rubidium or better as your house-clock. So, the link goes to what should be a great start-kit. All that you need. Price is reasnoble IMHO. Can't recall that particular seller before. Cheers, Magnus From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 12 22:07:57 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:07:57 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt firmware differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While toying with an attempt to use a Thunderbolt to generate a RINEX file for GPS precision post processing I discovered a difference between the 2.22 and 3.00 App firmware. The 2.22 firmware generates the ECEF position/velocity messages as documented. The rev 3.00 firmware does not generate any of the ECEF messages... as if any body but me would care about such things ;-) ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 12 22:21:37 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:21:37 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Purchasing a Trimble GPS timing solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have purchased several items from that seller without problem. He ships via Hong Kong post which gets handled by the US postal service... never had any customs duties, etc. All items arrived within a week or two. A couple of times I have emailed him asking questions about an item and have never received a reply. Ebay seller Fluke.l is another supplier with a good reputation. Now on the subject of Thunderbolt antennas... I recently got an Ashtech Z12 geodetcic grade GPS receiver and antenna. I now know where my a$$ is within a couple of centimeters. I have spent the last couple of days asking a Thunderbolt where it is using several different antennas (and the Self Survey command). Should have the numbers crunched in a day or two... so far it looks like antenna issues may be fairly irrelevant. _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From bg at lysator.liu.se Sun Jul 12 22:40:23 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:40:23 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63902.87.227.52.225.1247438423.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Said, > Hi Magnus, > > Agree with all your points. > > On the added noise due to an accelerometer, my thoughts are that this > needs > to be carefully designed so as not to add more error than we are actually > removing (due to phase shifts between crystal sensitivity and the > accelerometer response for example, and due to random noise). > > For example, if we do the compensation in the digital domain, and use a 10 > bit ADC on the accelerometer, and a full-scale compensation is say 2E-09, > then the quantization noise itself (1/2 of 1 LSB on average, or about > 4E-013 > just due to the quantization noise) may already be considerable. So we > need to use a good ADC, and very low noise accelerometer :) Some parameters for a "random" state-of-the-art analog accelerometer... measurement range 60g bandwidth >300Hz resolution/threshold < 1ug 1 year bias repeatability < 40ug (over an "industrial" temp range) Doing some hand waving here... gives more like a 24bit ADC. Noise (DC to 10Hz) can possibly be kept below 10ug. If we are going to compensate at 10Hz bandwidth, there is opportunity to oversample ten times or more. Which also serves to reduce noise. Putting the accelerometer inside an oven will improve its performance greatly, working to our benefit. Building a system where accelerometer errors affect oscillator frequency at the 1E-16 level should be possible. -- Bj?rn From bg at lysator.liu.se Sun Jul 12 22:44:02 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 00:44:02 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt firmware differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63904.87.227.52.225.1247438642.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > While toying with an attempt to use a Thunderbolt to generate a RINEX file > for GPS precision post processing I discovered a difference between the > 2.22 and 3.00 App firmware. The 2.22 firmware generates the ECEF > position/velocity messages as documented. The rev 3.00 firmware does not > generate any of the ECEF messages... as if any body but me would care > about such things ;-) You are not alone in caring... ;-) What kind of RINEX are you trying to get? Are there phase measurements available? -- Bj?rn From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 12 23:48:06 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 23:48:06 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt firmware differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wanted to have Heather make a RINEX file that could be submiited to OPUS-GIS to get a more precise antenna location. The Tbolt does not support carrier phase measurements. It does output doppler values. The code phase (pseudorange) values that it outputs look to be VERY difficult to translate into normal pseudoranges. You need to calculate the satellite positions from the almanac, etc to be able to use them. OPUS-GIS is still in alpha testing mode. I don't know what observable you need to have it post process the data. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From jltran at worldnet.att.net Mon Jul 13 00:35:41 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:35:41 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS frequency standard help In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Chris, I, too, am new to the 'time-nuts' but began with the same goal you have of a stable and accurate bench reference. That said, I now have Thunderbolt's, Z3816A's, 5061A's, and a 5061B and 5065A. One of my Thunderbolt's died that I think was due to a switching power supply powering the unit. That issue has been discussed at length on this list and you can search the archives for all the details. What I am finding I do is to run a 5061A all the time with CS off which leaves the Oscillator and Oscillator Oven on and then I compare it to a thunderbolt which can turn on quickly and (on a linear power supply) has run for weeks at a time without a problem. I am very pleased with the Thunderbolt. When I really need it exact, I can turn on the CS. I found some 5087A's on e..y and they work well as a distribution amplifier but I suspect they are lacking in the phase noise arena as compared to the level of refinement typical on this list. The Z3816A has four 10 MHz outputs and if you do not need many, perhaps you can save a distribution amplifier. It also has four 19.????? Mhz outputs that some have converted to additional 10 MHz outputs. Good luck and if you get caught up in this, I predict Cesium Beam Standards in your future. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chris Bridge Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 4:27 PM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] GPS frequency standard help Hi All, This is my first post here, the second that John will see. The amount of information available is staggering (to me anyway). I am new to the idea of GPS, and have only listened to the WWV 5, 10 and 15 MHz stations way back in high school. That would be about 33 years ago now I guess. These days I have a basement electronics lab and would really like to have a GPS type 10 MHz clock to synchronize all my equipment. It's mostly HP, the most critical would be a 5535A universal counter and a 3585A spectrum analyzer. My problem? I know zero about GPS frequency standards and I would really like some help in order to get set up correctly if possible. I need to buy a receiver with oscillator I guess, and an antenna. I'm located near Toronto, Ontario in Canada. Once I have a frequency standard running, I'll have to build a distribution amplifier for it as well. I see they are pretty expensive to buy. Any help would be deeply appreciated. Until then, I'll bounce around here and try to educate myself some. I have read that HP Z3801 and similar models are easy to use. There is also a Trimble (?) as well. I need guidance folks! Thank you, -Chris _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From brad at braddye.com Mon Jul 13 01:29:19 2009 From: brad at braddye.com (Brad Dye) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:29:19 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Bullet GPSDO antenna Message-ID: <6D46D036-AD20-47FD-A941-79731B419290@braddye.com> To the "Time Nuts" discussion group: I made a great find -- a GPS bullet antenna with type "F" connector (Trimble Navigation 25045-10) This antenna arrived "brand new" with a Shakespeare Polycarbonate extension mast and a Shakespeare Style Nylon Ratchet Mount. It works very well with my Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO. http://www.tmresale.com/commerce/catalog/product.jsp?product_id=1072&czuid=1247447172518 I have no connection with this company -- so I will let you get your own price quotation -- if you are interested. I talked to Gary Zundel at 408-248-2280 -- he gave me a good price and shipped it the next day. Best regards, Brad Dye Editor, AAPC Wireless Messaging News P.O. Box 13283 Springfield, IL 62791 USA Telephone: 217-787-2346 Cell: 217-299-0185 Skype: braddye http://www.braddye.com From billj at ieee.org Mon Jul 13 02:31:29 2009 From: billj at ieee.org (Bill) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:31:29 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers Message-ID: <4A5A9C81.3040408@ieee.org> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so My question is what is the PASCAL code to delay between readings. I am running Windows XP if that makes a difference. I don't have a book (yet) on PASCAL and I am not a programmer. I have EZGPIB displaying readings but at what seems to be a random rate Thanks Bill K7NOM From ch at murgatroid.com Mon Jul 13 03:01:54 2009 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 20:01:54 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers (was Thunderbolt firmware differences) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> > I wanted to have Heather make a RINEX file that could be submiited to OPUS-GIS to get a more precise antenna location. The Tbolt does not support carrier phase measurements. It does output doppler values. > > The code phase (pseudorange) values that it outputs look to be VERY difficult to translate into normal pseudoranges. You need to calculate the satellite positions from the almanac, etc to be able to use them. > > OPUS-GIS is still in alpha testing mode. I don't know what observable you need to have it post process the data. > What typically-available surplus receivers do carrier phase measurements[1]? I'm close to putting up a choke ring antenna I scored off of the surplus market on the roof -- I don't think the wife is going to let me build a proper monument in the yard. :-) Hence, I, too, am interested in getting a precise antenna fix. I 'spose I could hire a surveyor, but that's cheating. -ch [1]. I did enough work w/surplus SuperStar receivers that I convinced myself I could flash the carrier phase-capable software onto the board, but that's stealing. I am interested in receivers where I can get legitimate access to carrier phase measurements. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 03:47:08 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 03:47:08 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It can be difficult to tell if a receiver is carrier phase capable since it was usually a firmware option in most general purpose receiver boards and that option may not be labelled. Your best bet is a surveying receiver. The main problem is a standard L1 frequency only receiver is not much better than a plain jane receiver when Selective Availability is turned off (and particularly is WAAS corrections are available). This is the standard operating mode of GPS today. Choke ring antennas, etc are fairly useless overkill in this application. To get any kind of real accuracy out of an L1 only receiver requires two receivers with one set up at a precisely known point. I have a three unit Ashtech Locus surveying system that is L1 only. The NGS is working on a version of their OPUS post-processing system for L1 only receivers. It remains to be seen what kind of accuracy one can get with a single L1 carrier phase receiver. For any serious accuracy you need an L1/L2 receiver that can track both carriers so you can do proper ionospheric corrections. These puppies will set you back around $10,000-$50,000 dollars. Your best bet is to probably find an Ashtech Z12 unit. These were state of the art around 15 years ago and are still hard to beat. With luck you can score one for around $1000... make sure it comes with a proper L1/L2 antenna. A replacement antenna will cost at least that much. To get an accurate fix on a single point with these units involves taking data for a long time interval (2-24 hours, 30 second intervals), dumping the data from the unit, converting it to RINEX format, uploading it to OPUS (it's freeeee), and getting back a Where-Da-Heck-Am-I report. If everything goes well you will get centimeter level accuracy (well 5-10 cm level is more likely). _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Mon Jul 13 04:01:04 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 22:01:04 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers In-Reply-To: <4A5A9C81.3040408@ieee.org> References: <4A5A9C81.3040408@ieee.org> Message-ID: <4A5AB180.1070908@sasktel.net> Hi Bill, Is this what you're looking for? EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(x) This will pause the program for x seconds. I use it inside a loop to trigger a measurement / report cycle every x seconds. Ed Bill wrote: > I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so > > My question is what is the PASCAL code to delay between readings. I am > running Windows XP if > that makes a difference. > > I don't have a book (yet) on PASCAL and I am not a programmer. I have > EZGPIB displaying readings but at > what seems to be a random rate > > Thanks > Bill K7NOM > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 04:39:48 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 04:39:48 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Performance of the Thunderbolt self-survey / antennas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Now that I have a precise spot (+/- 4cm) known on my front deck I set up a tripod and did numerous 1400 point self-surveys with a Thunderbolt. This spot is surrounded by very tall trees and multipath from the trees, steel gates and stucco walls, a house, an iron fence, etc. I used four different antennas: 1) A Sokkia geodetic grade L1/L2 antenna 2) A Aero survey grade L1 only antenna 3) A Datum timing antenna 4) A cheap patch antenna I could not find any repeatable differences in the performance of any of the antennas. The $3000+ geodetic grade antenna performed no better than the cheap $5 dollar patch antenna. Composite performance over 22 runs was: Avg lat error: 1.4 feet, std dev 4.48 feet Avg lon error: 2.24 feet, std dev 2.87 feet Avg alt error: 6.00 feet, std dev 15 feet Although I did not do any extended timing tests between the antennas, the numbers that I did see make me suspect that timing performance among the antennas would be similar. A couple of 24 hour runs between the cheap patch and the geodetic antenna were the same. A cheapskate could probably get excellent results by mounting a cheap patch antenna in the middle of a large pizza pan ground plane. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From wb6bnq at cox.net Mon Jul 13 04:52:35 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 21:52:35 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Performance of the Thunderbolt self-survey / antennas References: Message-ID: <4A5ABD93.BC9C449C@cox.net> Mark, Is that thin or deep pan ? Bill....WB6BNQ Mark Sims wrote: > Now that I have a precise spot (+/- 4cm) known on my front deck I set up a tripod and did numerous 1400 point self-surveys with a Thunderbolt. This spot is surrounded by very tall trees and multipath from the trees, steel gates and stucco walls, a house, an iron fence, etc. I used four different antennas: > > 1) A Sokkia geodetic grade L1/L2 antenna > 2) A Aero survey grade L1 only antenna > 3) A Datum timing antenna > 4) A cheap patch antenna > > I could not find any repeatable differences in the performance of any of the antennas. The $3000+ geodetic grade antenna performed no better than the cheap $5 dollar patch antenna. > > Composite performance over 22 runs was: > Avg lat error: 1.4 feet, std dev 4.48 feet > Avg lon error: 2.24 feet, std dev 2.87 feet > Avg alt error: 6.00 feet, std dev 15 feet > > Although I did not do any extended timing tests between the antennas, the numbers that I did see make me suspect that timing performance among the antennas would be similar. A couple of 24 hour runs between the cheap patch and the geodetic antenna were the same. A cheapskate could probably get excellent results by mounting a cheap patch antenna in the middle of a large pizza pan ground plane. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 05:13:29 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 05:13:29 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Performance of the Thunderbolt self-survey / antennas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can find it, I would try something around 16" diameter with at least 1" walls (deep dish). And round, none of that rectangular stuff. Mount the antenna on the bottom side of the pan, with the walls/open side facing down... sort of a single choke ring. A flat pan should also be OK. If you want to go full choke ring style, find a set of nesting pans of decreasing diameter. Rivet them together... they are probably aluminium and don't weld well. _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Jul 13 06:51:55 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:51:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt firmware differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5AD98B.7060802@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hi Mark, Mark Sims wrote: > I wanted to have Heather make a RINEX file that could be submiited to OPUS-GIS to get a more precise antenna location. The Tbolt does not support carrier phase measurements. It does output doppler values. > > The code phase (pseudorange) values that it outputs look to be VERY difficult to translate into normal pseudoranges. You need to calculate the satellite positions from the almanac, etc to be able to use them. You should not use the alamanc ephemeris data but rather use the ephemeris data transmitted from that satellite. The difference is in the precission. The almanac is meant to help receivers find the birds in the sky, but each bird transmitt the ephimeris data that should be used for navigation. > OPUS-GIS is still in alpha testing mode. I don't know what observable you need to have it post process the data. Code or Carrier Pseudorange, Integrated doppler Ephimeris GPS time Just read GPS ICD 200 and you should understand most of it. You should also have one or a pair GPS books, The Kaplan book is good and classic, and the Enge book is more torough, but maybe a bit less practical oriented than the Kaplan book. The Kaplan book alongside with GPS ICD 200 is enought to implement a GPS receiver (assuming the RF section is there or simple). Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Jul 13 07:13:35 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:13:35 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers (was Thunderbolt firmware differences) In-Reply-To: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> References: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> Message-ID: <4A5ADE9F.5020006@rubidium.dyndns.org> christopher hoover wrote: > >> I wanted to have Heather make a RINEX file that could be submiited to >> OPUS-GIS to get a more precise antenna location. The Tbolt does not >> support carrier phase measurements. It does output doppler values. >> The code phase (pseudorange) values that it outputs look to be VERY >> difficult to translate into normal pseudoranges. You need to >> calculate the satellite positions from the almanac, etc to be able to >> use them. >> >> OPUS-GIS is still in alpha testing mode. I don't know what observable >> you need to have it post process the data. >> > What typically-available surplus receivers do carrier phase > measurements[1]? I'm close to putting up a choke ring antenna I scored > off of the surplus market on the roof -- I don't think the wife is going > to let me build a proper monument in the yard. :-) Hence, I, too, > am interested in getting a precise antenna fix. I 'spose I could hire > a surveyor, but that's cheating. Considering that the monument should go clear of the house for the antennas sky-view, I am sure that you are in good company with most of us here and many nodes of reference station networks in using the existing building rather than a fundament. > -ch > > [1]. I did enough work w/surplus SuperStar receivers that I convinced > myself I could flash the carrier phase-capable software onto the board, > but that's stealing. I am interested in receivers where I can get > legitimate access to carrier phase measurements. It depends, what if there is no commecial service available to get the carrier-phase option? There have been some work to build up a open-source code-base for GPS receiver software. But to answer the question, the CMC/Novatel series OEM boards, Motorola and Ashtech receivers can all have carrier phase ability. However, the carrier phase capable receivers is not easy to find. Cheers, Magnus From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Mon Jul 13 07:59:28 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 09:59:28 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers In-Reply-To: <4A5A9C81.3040408@ieee.org> Message-ID: Bill, there are two "sleep" commands: 1) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeSleep(HowLong:Double) 2) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(Seconds:LongWord) where Howlong is in seconds and starts immediately after call. The second one is for you if you want to keep something synchronized to the computer's clock. EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(10) will sleep up to second 10, 20, 30, 50, 0 whatever is the closest. EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(60) will wait up to the start of the next minute. > I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so I fear, that THIS not only a matter of sleeping! Please explain your experiment more in detail. Are you doing frequency or phase measurements? 73s de Ulrich, DF6JB > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bill > Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juli 2009 04:31 > An: time-nuts > Betreff: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers > > > I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so > > My question is what is the PASCAL code to delay between > readings. I am > running Windows XP if > that makes a difference. > > I don't have a book (yet) on PASCAL and I am not a programmer. I have > EZGPIB displaying readings but at > what seems to be a random rate > > Thanks > Bill K7NOM > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bg at lysator.liu.se Mon Jul 13 08:59:26 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:59:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers (was Thunderbolt firmware differences) In-Reply-To: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> References: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> Message-ID: <50287.87.227.52.225.1247475566.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > What typically-available surplus receivers do carrier phase > measurements[1]? I'm close to putting up a choke ring antenna I scored > off of the surplus market on the roof -- I don't think the wife is going > to let me build a proper monument in the yard. :-) Hence, I, too, > am interested in getting a precise antenna fix. I 'spose I could hire > a surveyor, but that's cheating. > > -ch Somewhat dated... but since we are looking at surplus... http://home-2.worldonline.nl/~samsvl/oemtable.htm I once did get phase measurements out of a Garmin GPSMAP76 with this http://home.comcast.net/~dmilbert/softs/garbin.htm Do not know the status of more current Garmin receivers. Teqc's list of supported format will give you further information. http://facility.unavco.org/software/teqc/tutorial.html#sec_15 Helenav sells converters for many L1 only phase capable receivers. http://www.helenav.nl/ To sum it up. Many (most?) surplus receivers are capable of phase measurements. You have to look out for "crippled" versions, where phase output might be an software option not loaded into the particular receiver you find. > [1]. I did enough work w/surplus SuperStar receivers that I convinced > myself I could flash the carrier phase-capable software onto the board, > but that's stealing. I am interested in receivers where I can get > legitimate access to carrier phase measurements. The superstar family is actually quit good at phase measurement. As you have noted not all receivers have the correct options loaded to enable phase output. With Novatel having EOLed the SuperStarII last year(?), the old CMC receivers are all out "in the cold". I think though that you could still contact either Novatel or CMC Electroncs to order the software option for your SuperStar receivers. There are also higher end receiver appearing in the surplus market. Both L1 OEM-cards from Ashtech, Trimble, Novatel, Magnavox and also geodetic dual frequency receivers from the above and Topcon, Javad, Leica, Sokkia and some others. Beware though that old surplus equipment are sometimes priced "higher than new" on "the bay" and elsewhere. -- Bj?rn From bg at lysator.liu.se Mon Jul 13 09:29:38 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:29:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50441.87.227.52.225.1247477378.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > The main problem is a standard L1 frequency only receiver is not much > better than a plain jane receiver when Selective Availability is turned > off (and particularly is WAAS corrections are available). This is the > standard operating mode of GPS today. Choke ring antennas, etc are > fairly useless overkill in this application. An L1/L2 receiver is also not much better than your modern car GPS in standalone operation. > To get any kind of real accuracy out of an L1 only receiver requires two > receivers with one set up at a precisely known point. I have a three unit > Ashtech Locus surveying system that is L1 only. The NGS is working on a > version of their OPUS post-processing system for L1 only receivers. It > remains to be seen what kind of accuracy one can get with a single L1 > carrier phase receiver. There is no conceptual difference between using L1 and dual freq receivers. You still compare your measurements to a stationary reference receivers. The difference is that dual freq receivers can have a lot longer distances between the receivers and get a "sub dm"-level accuracy. > For any serious accuracy you need an L1/L2 receiver that can track both > carriers so you can do proper ionospheric corrections. These puppies will > set you back around $10,000-$50,000 dollars. You can get a good new receiver for sub $4k. http://www.javad.com/cgi-bin/jgnss/cgi?Action=Buy&ProductID=663 A good antenna can be had for sub $1k, if you look around a little. > Your best bet is to probably find an Ashtech Z12 unit. These were state > of the art around 15 years ago and are still hard to beat. With luck you > can score one for around $1000... make sure it comes with a proper L1/L2 > antenna. A replacement antenna will cost at least that much. Z12 is a good recomendation, but be aware that they contain old electronics that might start to fail. Many sellers are can not or will not show you pictures of the receiver running. Thus you might be buying an expensive paperweight. You might also need to replace internal memory backup batteries, to get them to work. Besides a dual freq antenna you should also make sure you get power and serial cables. They are avalable for purchase but will set you back another ca $300... -- Bj?rn From bg at lysator.liu.se Mon Jul 13 09:32:43 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:32:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Performance of the Thunderbolt self-survey / antennas In-Reply-To: <4A5ABD93.BC9C449C@cox.net> References: <4A5ABD93.BC9C449C@cox.net> Message-ID: <50460.87.227.52.225.1247477563.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Bill, It might be a set of cake pans... ;-) -- Bj?rn > Mark, > > Is that thin or deep pan ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > Mark Sims wrote: > >> Now that I have a precise spot (+/- 4cm) known on my front deck I set up >> a tripod and did numerous 1400 point self-surveys with a Thunderbolt. >> This spot is surrounded by very tall trees and multipath from the trees, >> steel gates and stucco walls, a house, an iron fence, etc. I used >> four different antennas: >> >> 1) A Sokkia geodetic grade L1/L2 antenna >> 2) A Aero survey grade L1 only antenna >> 3) A Datum timing antenna >> 4) A cheap patch antenna >> >> I could not find any repeatable differences in the performance of any of >> the antennas. The $3000+ geodetic grade antenna performed no better >> than the cheap $5 dollar patch antenna. >> >> Composite performance over 22 runs was: >> Avg lat error: 1.4 feet, std dev 4.48 feet >> Avg lon error: 2.24 feet, std dev 2.87 feet >> Avg alt error: 6.00 feet, std dev 15 feet >> >> Although I did not do any extended timing tests between the antennas, >> the numbers that I did see make me suspect that timing performance among >> the antennas would be similar. A couple of 24 hour runs between the >> cheap patch and the geodetic antenna were the same. A cheapskate could >> probably get excellent results by mounting a cheap patch antenna in the >> middle of a large pizza pan ground plane. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bg at lysator.liu.se Mon Jul 13 09:36:12 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 11:36:12 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers (was Thunderbolt firmware differences) In-Reply-To: <4A5ADE9F.5020006@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A5AA3A2.5040706@murgatroid.com> <4A5ADE9F.5020006@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <50486.87.227.52.225.1247477772.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> > But to answer the question, the CMC/Novatel series OEM boards, Motorola > and Ashtech receivers can all have carrier phase ability. However, the > carrier phase capable receivers is not easy to find. The Motorola Oncore VP did have carrier phase output. (with the right option loaded.) In newer models they removed the phase output. -- Bj?rn From David.Hilton-Jones at clneuro.ox.ac.uk Mon Jul 13 09:37:28 2009 From: David.Hilton-Jones at clneuro.ox.ac.uk (David Hilton-Jones) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:37:28 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Purchasing a Trimble GPS timing solution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5B0E67.09A9.0069.0@clneuro.ox.ac.uk> I note the Chinese supplier offers two kits, one more expensive than the other. The difference is the GPS aerial. Anybody any experience of the difference between them? David >>> Mark Sims 12/07/2009 23:21 >>> I have purchased several items from that seller without problem. He ships via Hong Kong post which gets handled by the US postal service... never had any customs duties, etc. All items arrived within a week or two. A couple of times I have emailed him asking questions about an item and have never received a reply. Ebay seller Fluke.l is another supplier with a good reputation. Now on the subject of Thunderbolt antennas... I recently got an Ashtech Z12 geodetcic grade GPS receiver and antenna. I now know where my a$$ is within a couple of centimeters. I have spent the last couple of days asking a Thunderbolt where it is using several different antennas (and the Self Survey command). Should have the numbers crunched in a day or two... so far it looks like antenna issues may be fairly irrelevant. _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bg at lysator.liu.se Mon Jul 13 12:47:32 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:47:32 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [time-nuts] Purchasing a Trimble GPS timing solution In-Reply-To: <4A5B0E67.09A9.0069.0@clneuro.ox.ac.uk> References: <4A5B0E67.09A9.0069.0@clneuro.ox.ac.uk> Message-ID: <51194.87.227.52.225.1247489252.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi David, (I did not check the exact offer of your CN supplier) How do you intend to mount the antenna? How long a cable must you run from the Tbolt to the antenna? Will a small magnetic mount antenna puck with a 3-5 meter thin koax attached mount ok and give a clear view of the sky? If yes, then go for that solution. If you need (and are allowed) to make a longer cable run up to a roof-mounted antenna to get good sky visibility then go for a better antenna. VIC-100/Motorola/HP/Agilent/Symmetricom GPS timing antenna comes to mind. Good luck! -- Bj?rn > I note the Chinese supplier offers two kits, one more expensive than the > other. The difference is the GPS aerial. Anybody any experience of the > difference between them? > > David > >>>> Mark Sims 12/07/2009 23:21 >>> > > I have purchased several items from that seller without problem. He > ships via Hong Kong post which gets handled by the US postal service... > never had any customs duties, etc. All items arrived within a week or > two. A couple of times I have emailed him asking questions about an > item and have never received a reply. Ebay seller Fluke.l is another > supplier with a good reputation. > > Now on the subject of Thunderbolt antennas... I recently got an > Ashtech Z12 geodetcic grade GPS receiver and antenna. I now know where > my a$$ is within a couple of centimeters. I have spent the last couple > of days asking a Thunderbolt where it is using several different > antennas (and the Self Survey command). Should have the numbers > crunched in a day or two... so far it looks like antenna issues may be > fairly irrelevant. > _________________________________________________________________ > Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that???s right for you. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Jul 13 13:38:50 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 06:38:50 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] surplus carrier phase measurement-capable receivers (was Thunderbolt firmware differences) In-Reply-To: <50287.87.227.52.225.1247475566.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: On 7/13/09 1:59 AM, "bg at lysator.liu.se" wrote: > > >> What typically-available surplus receivers do carrier phase >> measurements[1]? I'm close to putting up a choke ring antenna I scored >> off of the surplus market on the roof -- I don't think the wife is going >> to let me build a proper monument in the yard. :-) Hence, I, too, >> am interested in getting a precise antenna fix. I 'spose I could hire >> a surveyor, but that's cheating. "hire a surveyor".. Really... This is time-nuts. You should get yourself a good quality theodolite (surplus, or make one.. If Tycho Brahe can do it, so can you) and start making those astronomical measurements yourself. I'll bet there's even astromonical surveying mailing lists. Procedures wise, the BLM has a manual online (since much of the survey work for the U.S. Public Lands Survey System (PLSS) is based on astronomical methods...). A copy of Davis and Foote (or whatever the current authors are) wouldn't be useless, either. 10cm accuracy is a big challenging with a standard theodolite. You can read a Wild T2 to a second of arc.. That's on the order of a few tens of meters position accuracy.. But I think with multiple measurements, one can bring the uncertainty down. There's a great CDROM available for $50 from the Institute of Navigation with all the papers on celestial nav From billj at ieee.org Mon Jul 13 15:33:33 2009 From: billj at ieee.org (Bill Janssen) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 08:33:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5B53CD.3030609@ieee.org> Ulrich Bangert wrote: > Bill, > > there are two "sleep" commands: > > 1) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeSleep(HowLong:Double) > > 2) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(Seconds:LongWord) > > where Howlong is in seconds and starts immediately after call. The second > one is for you if you want to keep something synchronized to the computer's > clock. EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(10) will sleep up to second 10, 20, 30, > 50, 0 whatever is the closest. EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(60) will wait up > to the start of the next minute. > > >> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a >> reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. >> I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various >> oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) >> on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so >> > > I fear, that THIS not only a matter of sleeping! Please explain your > experiment more in detail. Are you doing frequency or phase measurements? > > 73s de Ulrich, DF6JB > > I am using the 5370 for time interval measurements to compare zero crossings from the two oscillators. I want to see what the stability is over twenty four hours. I have two GPSDO's and a rubidium and three "good" quartz oscillators. I suspect that the Z3801 is drifting due to temperature changes I want to sample the phase difference at a known rate so that I can plot the differences with out getting a data file thats too big.. > > >> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bill >> Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juli 2009 04:31 >> An: time-nuts >> Betreff: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers >> >> >> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a >> reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. >> I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various >> oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) >> on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so >> >> My question is what is the PASCAL code to delay between >> readings. I am >> running Windows XP if >> that makes a difference. >> >> I don't have a book (yet) on PASCAL and I am not a programmer. I have >> EZGPIB displaying readings but at >> what seems to be a random rate >> >> Thanks >> Bill K7NOM >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Mon Jul 13 16:48:37 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:48:37 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers In-Reply-To: <4A5B53CD.3030609@ieee.org> Message-ID: <534DA2519DA54FB1BE157C84753C1823@athlon> Bill, > I am using the 5370 for time interval measurements to compare zero > crossings from the two oscillators. > I want to see what the stability is over twenty four hours. I have currently not the time to fully explain, but the measurements you are planning involve much more than just to connect the two sources to start and stop of the counter and up we go. Perhaps someone else of the group wants to explain to you. 73s and my best regards Ulrich, DF6JB > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bill Janssen > Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juli 2009 17:34 > An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers > > > Ulrich Bangert wrote: > > Bill, > > > > there are two "sleep" commands: > > > > 1) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeSleep(HowLong:Double) > > > > 2) Procedure EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(Seconds:LongWord) > > > > where Howlong is in seconds and starts immediately after call. The > > second one is for you if you want to keep something synchronized to > > the computer's clock. EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(10) will > sleep up > > to second 10, 20, 30, 50, 0 whatever is the closest. > > EZGPIB_TimeWaitForMultipleOf(60) will wait up to the start > of the next > > minute. > > > > > >> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > >> reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > >> I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > >> oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > >> on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so > >> > > > > I fear, that THIS not only a matter of sleeping! Please > explain your > > experiment more in detail. Are you doing frequency or phase > > measurements? > > > > 73s de Ulrich, DF6JB > > > > > I am using the 5370 for time interval measurements to compare zero > crossings from the two oscillators. > I want to see what the stability is over twenty four hours. I > have two > GPSDO's and a rubidium and three > "good" quartz oscillators. I suspect that the Z3801 is > drifting due to > temperature changes > > I want to sample the phase difference at a known rate so that > I can plot > the differences with out getting > a data file thats too big.. > > > > > > > >> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Bill > >> Gesendet: Montag, 13. Juli 2009 04:31 > >> An: time-nuts > >> Betreff: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers > >> > >> > >> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > >> reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > >> I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > >> oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > >> on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so > >> > >> My question is what is the PASCAL code to delay between > >> readings. I am > >> running Windows XP if > >> that makes a difference. > >> > >> I don't have a book (yet) on PASCAL and I am not a > programmer. I have > >> EZGPIB displaying readings but at > >> what seems to be a random rate > >> > >> Thanks > >> Bill K7NOM > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Mon Jul 13 17:17:13 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:17:13 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a 10811 OCXO Message-ID: Hallo all the Time Nuts experts, I need some help to find the understanding for a optimized setup with Trimble's Thunderbolts with original and other OCXOs like HP's 10811. At the first glance the output of the TB does look quite good if I trust the values given by LH adev etc. But how good are the data gained without an external reference, may I believe them? (Ask a baker if his bread is good...!) How do they judge the quality, what they refer to? But I observe some things which makes me thinking and raising questions. If I look to the graph of Mark Sims' and John Miles' Lady Heather Program I see eg. up to 500?V EFC jumps due to SATs phasing in or out (where every ?V does count!) resulting in PPS changes of around 7ns and frequency changes of 100ppb and more within several minutes or sudden jumps. I thought that this should be eliminated by processing and filter routines. I have adapted a HP-10811 oscillator (Z3801-Model, outer heater not connected) to one of my TBs as shown by John Miles on his homepage. Was not difficult at all. To get a base I did run it undisciplined in the TB system with a fixed EFC (set to get as close as possible 0.00ppb) and watched the output of LH. Setting different voltages I could easily derive the gain factor. Astonishing for me, I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined mode for a limited time: After a warming up time of several weeks this oscillator does actually show a very low drift with the EFC Voltage set to around -80mV (-0.079724V actually, drifting about +1mV per week) with a gain set to -0.7425V/Hz. (I used LH with discipl. mode disabled to determine these values.) The adev values for the undisciplined 10811: pps oadev over 2311 pts 1 tau 5.5578e-011 2 tau 4.0426e-011 5 tau 3.6200e-011 10 tau 4.6242e-011 20 tau 5.4782e-011 50 tau 3.1047e-011 100 tau 1.9876e-011 200 tau 1.4337e-011 500 tau 8.0590e-012 1000 tau 9.0174e-012 osc oadev over 2311 pts 1 tau 3.5775e-009 2 tau 1.8014e-009 5 tau 7.1510e-010 10 tau 3.7145e-010 20 tau 1.8131e-010 50 tau 7.5577e-011 100 tau 3.6502e-011 200 tau 1.9246e-011 500 tau 8.0409e-012 1000 tau 4.5730e-012 I stopped there because the pps line began to drift away. The frequency curve, beside the jitter of max. +- 50ppb peaking, was smooth and varied along the straight center line about to +- 20ppb. At this point the efc should already have started pulling very smooth the pps back to zero +- a tolerance. But when I run the TB in normal mode with disciplining on then the oscillator curve starts to be a bit nervous as the efc and the pps lines do surf slowly up and down with possible jumps as already mentioned. I tried to modify the damping factor, the time constant and as well the gain. I never got both, the pps and the osc, calm. When I run it with a time constant above 500s, the osc seem to be more stable but the pps starts to behave worse. The best values I could get that way for the disciplined TB. w. a 10811 ocxo after trying a lot of setup combinations are: pps oadev over 10810 pts 1 tau 2.4865e-010 2 tau 1.7802e-010 5 tau 1.1912e-010 10 tau 9.3686e-011 20 tau 7.6403e-011 50 tau 4.9101e-011 100 tau 3.5379e-011 200 tau 2.0019e-011 500 tau 1.1316e-011 1000 tau 7.6236e-012 2000 tau 4.6755e-012 5000 tau 3.2676e-012 osc oadev over 10810 pts 1 tau 6.0651e-009 2 tau 2.9834e-009 5 tau 1.2081e-009 10 tau 6.0071e-010 20 tau 3.0075e-010 50 tau 1.2337e-010 100 tau 6.3227e-011 200 tau 3.2970e-011 500 tau 1.3461e-011 1000 tau 6.8074e-012 2000 tau 3.4545e-012 5000 tau 1.4172e-012 (I see just now, I should have waited for 1 step more to get 10811 pts. ;-) If this would stay stable during days and weeks I do not know yet. So, what do I wrong, what can be done better, what is the way to get the maximum out from the TBs? The values gained with the original ocxo from trimble are even worse.What I am looking for is to get more stability at lower tau steps. Why do I observe a crossing of the pps and osc oadev curves, which I did not see with the original oscillator? Btw. the bottom side of the OCXO I unmounted is marked with 'Phase Noise'. It looks like that this series was equipped with selected OCXOs for low phase noise...! I would appreciate it very much to get comments and advices. many thanks i.a. and regards Arnold From jmiles at pop.net Mon Jul 13 17:22:12 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:22:12 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB & delay triggers In-Reply-To: <534DA2519DA54FB1BE157C84753C1823@athlon> Message-ID: Hi, Bill -- > > > > > >> I am trying to use EZGPIB with a HP 5370A and I want to trigger a > > >> reading on a 10 to 30 second interval. > > >> I want the use EZGPIB to do long term comparisons of various > > >> oscillators, I am not interested (at this time) > > >> on jitter less than tau < 1 seconds or so > > >> > > > I hate to "Osborne" myself since it's still in a pretty incomplete state of development, but I'm working on a new GPIB app that does one-stop shopping for time-interval measurements. It will run on the 5370A/B first. If you were to use this app to make the measurements you mentioned, you'd most likely feed the 1-pps output of your reference source to the Start channel on the 5370, and feed 10 MHz from the unit under test to the Stop channel. The program will then receive one result per second from the counter and draw you an ADEV graph, at which point you can load and display previously-saved files for direct comparison. More later on that, just giving you a heads-up so you don't do any R&D work that you don't actually have to. One way you can accomplish the same thing now is to run the 5370b.exe console app from my package, pipe the output to a file, and read it with Ulrich's PLOTTER utility (which is a separate app from EZGPIB). That will save you from having to do any scripting work. -- john, KE5FX From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Jul 13 17:48:04 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:48:04 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO References: Message-ID: <6C8DD9BA413A42F5B3D8118A3259CBD2@pc52> > Astonishing for me, > I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined > mode for a limited time: This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule for long-term. /tvb From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Mon Jul 13 18:56:56 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:56:56 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: <6C8DD9BA413A42F5B3D8118A3259CBD2@pc52> Message-ID: Tom,: >> Astonishing for me, >> I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined >> mode for a limited time: >This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO >like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better >than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging >times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to >run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule >for long-term. yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within 2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! Arnold From true-cal at swbell.net Mon Jul 13 20:15:29 2009 From: true-cal at swbell.net (Don @ True-Cal) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO Message-ID: <469856.42037.qm@web81804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Arnold, I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have been working?with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two different 10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the TC?large enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause large?Freq and?PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is providing many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to 300 secs. Anything larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates to in secs.) on the Fury will cause?instability. I have better luck?disabling?desciplining?on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no?command to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec. low jitter measurement. ?Regards... Don ________________________________ From: Arnold Tibus To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ; Tom Van Baak Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:56:56 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO Tom,: >> Astonishing for me, >> I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined >> mode for a limited time: >This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO >like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better >than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging >times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to >run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule >for long-term. yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within 2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! Arnold _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Jul 13 20:25:27 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:25:27 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO References: <20090713190410.8D869130872@mailwash30.pair.com> Message-ID: > yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's > OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time > constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and > down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within > 2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable > oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! > > Arnold First, are these 80ppbs and pps15ns numbers externally measured by you or internally reported by tboltmon? It's not that the OCXO runs free for N seconds and then is corrected and then runs free for another N seconds and is again corrected, etc. Most GPSDO seem to "continuously" adjust the DAC. Exactly how much how often depends on a lot of factors. For example, if you look closely the Z3801A DAC effectively changes about a hundred times a second: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/z3801a-efc/ Play with the TBolt time constant to see what happens. If you have a particularly stable TBolt and a very stable lab environment then you should be able to increase the TC which may improve the shifts that you see. For example: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-tc/ /tvb From jmiles at pop.net Mon Jul 13 20:32:37 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:32:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: <469856.42037.qm@web81804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What are you using for the Kvco constant with your 10811-based Thunderbolt? If you don't back it down to -0.2 V/Hz, the loop's damping factor will be very wrong, which might confuse the firmware. Check the Kvco, and also do a factory reset after changing the OCXO to make sure it forgets anything it might be remembering about the OEM part. (You might try that, too, Arnold.) -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Don @ True-Cal > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and > addinga10811 OCXO > > > Arnold, > > I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have > been working?with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two > different 10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the > TC?large enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few > minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause large?Freq > and?PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is > providing many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to > 300 secs. Anything larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and > EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates to in secs.) on the Fury > will cause?instability. I have better luck?disabling?desciplining? > on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no?command > to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec. > low jitter measurement. > ?Regards... > Don > > > > From true-cal at swbell.net Mon Jul 13 21:51:53 2009 From: true-cal at swbell.net (Don @ True-Cal) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <573279.46940.qm@web81803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> John, Yes, I have changed?the gain to?exactly your suggested -0.2 V/Hz and I have experimented with the damping from .5 to 3 and I'm currently using 1.00. Things certainly change with various damping and TC settings but?not nearly as slow and subtel as I would like to see for an oscillator like the 10811. On the Fury I am using?DACG=250, EFCS=.8, EFCD=80 and PhaseCO=12 (favoring freq stability for 10MHz reference). On both configurations I typically see 3.1 to 3.3 nSec?standard deviation so still much better than a Z3801. ?Regards... Don ________________________________ From: John Miles To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 3:32:37 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO What are you using for the Kvco constant with your 10811-based Thunderbolt? If you don't back it down to -0.2 V/Hz, the loop's damping factor will be very wrong, which might confuse the firmware.? Check the Kvco, and also do a factory reset after changing the OCXO to make sure it forgets anything it might be remembering about the OEM part.? (You might try that, too, Arnold.) -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Don @ True-Cal > Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:15 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and > addinga10811 OCXO > > > Arnold, > > I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have > been working?with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two > different 10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the > TC?large enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few > minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause large?Freq > and?PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is > providing many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to > 300 secs. Anything larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and > EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates to in secs.) on the Fury > will cause?instability. I have better luck?disabling?desciplining? > on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no?command > to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec. > low jitter measurement. > ?Regards... > Don > > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:04:36 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 22:04:36 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While playing with getting the Thunderbolt to supply a more accurate/reliable position, I came up with a way to filter the lat/lon/alt data in such a way that you can get a pretty darned accurate location (a quick test shows sub 1 foot accuracy should be doable). The only problem is there seems to be no way to get the tbolt to accept and/or store that position. The 0x32 command that sets the "accurate" position only uses single precision numbers which are good to around 5 decimal points. The command that saves the survey position has no way of letting the user enter that position. Does anybody know of a way to get the Tbolt to accept an externally generated high-accuracy position? The only way that I can think up that might work is to calculate the high accuracy position, put the unit into 3D fix mode, wait until it randomly comes up with a fix that is very close to the desired value (which may never happen), then put the unit into position hold mode... craptastic... _________________________________________________________________ Bing? finds low fares by predicting when to book. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/travel/deals/airline-ticket-deals.do?form=MTRHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MTRHPG_Travel_Travel_TravelDeals_1x1 From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Jul 13 22:09:55 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:09:55 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andaddinga10811 OCXO References: <573279.46940.qm@web81803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don, When you say you see about 3 nSec standard deviation, where is this number coming from? As reported by a program like GPScon or LH, or an actual measurement of the 1pps or 10 MHz output against a lab standard? /tvb From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Jul 13 22:34:58 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:34:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position References: Message-ID: > The only way that I can think up that might work is to > calculate the high accuracy position, put the unit into > 3D fix mode, wait until it randomly comes up with a > fix that is very close to the desired value (which may > never happen), then put the unit into position hold > mode... craptastic... An equally creative solution -- just move the antenna a few feet in whatever direction you need equal the value of the single precision number ;-) I can see your deck now - with an old CNC XYZ head and a GPS antenna... /tvb From true-cal at swbell.net Mon Jul 13 22:35:04 2009 From: true-cal at swbell.net (Don @ True-Cal) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 15:35:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andaddinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: References: <573279.46940.qm@web81803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <204070.54755.qm@web81808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Tom, The most direct and quickest way I observe?this is from?GPScon (also use LH). I also constantly monitor one or the other GPSDO setups with an SR620 (zero crossing technique)?with an LPRO-101 as the reference.?I use an Tektronix monitor ?display on the SR620 so I can watch deviation from reference and ADEV (sort of)?typically on 24-hour window.?A rough visual of the 20ns/div graph or a more accurate analysis on the SR620 dump?agrees closely with the GPScon values.?I want to use the best GPSDO setup for the SR620 reference?instead of the LPRO to improve the PN floor. During these measurements, I currently anticipate having to disabling diciplining if I cant get a very long TC. ?Regards... Don ________________________________ From: Tom Van Baak To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 5:09:55 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andaddinga10811 OCXO Don, When you say you see about 3 nSec standard deviation, where is this number coming from? As reported by a program like GPScon or LH, or an actual measurement of the 1pps or 10 MHz output against a lab standard? /tvb _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 23:15:45 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 23:15:45 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I spent several hours trying to find out why I started getting longitude number that were way off. Everything seemed to be working properly, but the tbolt was reporting longitude numbers way off from the surveyed position. I thought that my attempts to feed it an accurate lunch had gotten the unit into some bogo-state. Did a power cycle and factory reset and new self survey. Still got bogo-longitude. Curse you John Harrison! Turns out I had the wrong tbolt connected... the surveyed point in the front yard has a very close latitude to the rooftop antenna, but off by around 70 feet in longitude. All them serial cables look alike. D'oh! ---------------------- An equally creative solution -- just move the antenna a few feet in whatever direction you need equal the value of the single precision number ;-) I can see your deck now - with an old CNC XYZ head and a GPS antenna... _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Find, add, and share the best celeb pics, right from Hotmail. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_celebrity_photos2_072009&cat=celebrity From SAIDJACK at aol.com Tue Jul 14 01:11:06 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:11:06 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO Message-ID: Hi Don, to disable the Fury (or FireFly) GPS receiver from disciplining the unit, send the command: sync:sour:mode ext That will switch the unit to external 1PPS input, and thus make it go into holdover if there is nothing connected to the external 1PPS input. Bye, Said In a message dated 7/13/2009 13:16:01 Pacific Daylight Time, true-cal at swbell.net writes: I have better luck disabling desciplining on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no command to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec. low jitter measurement. Regards... Don From tvb at LeapSecond.com Tue Jul 14 01:27:18 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 18:27:18 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO References: Message-ID: > Hi Don, > > to disable the Fury (or FireFly) GPS receiver from disciplining the unit, > send the command: > > sync:sour:mode ext > > That will switch the unit to external 1PPS input, and thus make it go into > holdover if there is nothing connected to the external 1PPS input. > > Bye, > Said Two questions - Will the internal TI value still be updated against GPS in this case (as it is with the TBolt)? And, is there also a mode where you just freeze the DAC, that is, holdover without any compensation (no drift or temp corrections). This being a trick to temporarily maximize short-term stability, a way to most closely resemble a standalone free-running OCXO. /tvb From perseidjh at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 02:41:02 2009 From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:41:02 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation In-Reply-To: References: <698236.47600.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><272BE60F310F47E59A1BA1F8E7A6DB2A@pc52><0412784722704A7A83BD630C3EB0EEB9@pc52> Message-ID: Based on my experience with the HP 8660C (detailed below) I suspect fan noise could have an effect on HP 5370 performance. I was project manager for the HP8660C synthesizer. During the project we discovered the fan in the 8660C was adding significant "close-in" noise sidebands to the synthesizer output by vibrating the internal 10811 reference oscillator. For that reason we devised a foam damped mounting system for the 10811 and added a narrow band crystal filter in series with it's output. With these two countermeasures the internal 10811 oscillator yielded noise performance comparable to that obtained with an external reference. This was in 1975 and unfortunately I no longer remember details as to the sideband frequencies or magnitudes generated by the fan/10811 combination. Jim Hall W4TVI -------------------------------------------------- From: "Didier" Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 1:54 PM To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation > That is interestng and brings a question that I should be able to answer > but > have been too busy (or lazy...) to try... > > The HP 5370 has a noisy fan, and an HP 10811 in the same box. Has anyone > been curious enough to measure the effect of fan vibration on the > oscillator > and p-p noise on TI measurements? > > Didier > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak >> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 5:51 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation >> >> > One is do crystal oscillators change frequency when they >> are turned. >> > The answer to that is yes. This gravitational acceleration >> effect is >> > rather huge, parts in ten to the 9th or so, and anyone can >> see this. >> > This is why you never touch, bump, or move, or rotate a laboratory >> > frequency standard (this includes GPSDO and cesium standards). >> >> And to give you a *picture* instead of just numbers... Here >> is a plot showing frequency changes in an OCXO (this from a >> free-running Thunderbolt GPSDO) over the span of one hour. >> Every 5 minutes or so I rotated the rectangular box on some >> axis by 90 degrees. >> >> >> >> You can see that the sudden frequency jumps due to change in >> g-force on the crystal are about -0.5e-9 to +1.5 e-9, which >> is 100x the normal frequency noise for this oscillator (about >> 2e-11 pk-pk or about 2e-12 adev). >> >> Hopefully this result won't come as a big surprise to anyone; >> the so-called "2g turn-over" spec is common for quality oscillators. >> Again, this is why when you enter the world of precision >> timing at 1e-10 and below you tend not to ever touch your standards. >> >> Now if one of you happened to have a fully-programmable >> 3-axis turntable and a couple of hours you could slowly >> create a most beautiful high-resolution 3D color plot showing >> the precise shift in frequency as a function of axis. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, >> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From swithrow at idcomm.com Tue Jul 14 03:09:13 2009 From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:09:13 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Source for Trimble Acutime 2000 Connectors? Message-ID: <20090714030913.9204539404B@mailhost.idcomm.com> Hello Time-nuts, I'm looking for the connector to mate with a Trimble Acutime 2000. The connector part number is Deutch MMP 26C-2212S1, pins are 6862-201-22278, and back shell is 6810-204-2001. I've tried the usual - Mouser, Digi-Key, and Newark. Who is their distributor in the US? I would even take a used connector cut-off (or not cut off the cable even) if someone had one laying around the shop. Any help appreciated. Regards, Skip Withrow From SAIDJACK at aol.com Tue Jul 14 06:06:33 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:06:33 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO Message-ID: Hi Tom, >Two questions - Will the internal TI value still be updated against >GPS in this case (as it is with the TBolt)? No, unfortunately not. There is another (better?) command to manually put the Fury/FireFly units into holdover mode: SYNChronisation:HOLDover:INITiate To get out of manual holdover, use: SYNChronisation:HOLDover:RECovery:INITiate Pretty obscure commands, I forgot about these. >And, is there also a mode where you just freeze the DAC, that is, >holdover without any compensation (no drift or temp corrections). >This being a trick to temporarily maximize short-term stability, a >way to most closely resemble a standalone free-running OCXO. This can be done in two ways: 1) set both tempco and aging to 0.0, and disable the GPS. This will lock the DAC in place. 2) turn on the unit, wait ~10 seconds, then enable the reset via jumper. This will lock the Coarsedac into place, and disable the fine-dac. Absolute frequency will be off a bit due to the disabled fine-dac. Option 2) will disable the CPU, and will reduce any noise that the CPU etc generates, and thus may be a more Time-nutty way of checking the OCXO just by itself. Hope that helps, bye, Said From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Tue Jul 14 08:51:05 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:51:05 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX Message-ID: Gents, a new version of Z38XX is available for download. 1) It addresses most of the typos that Kit and Murray have found. 2) I detects fractional EFC numbers and changes number formats and EFC scale according to that. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From iovane at inwind.it Tue Jul 14 09:57:49 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 11:57:49 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 10811 crystal orientation Message-ID: on July 10 2009 tvb wrote: > Hi Said & Tom, > > The below url links some "low-g"-osc papers. > > http://www.freqelec.com/tech_lit.html > > .................... Antonio, you may want to read them - for additional insights into your eclipse project. /tvb Tanks Tom and all for the discussion and for the valuable info. I liked your 6-axis plot, it's better than numbers indeed... I'm wondering if time-nuts should search for best position (orientation) of their high performance crystals for best phase noise, stability etc... May be we will see instruments tilted on our benchs...:-) (sorry that I had a 3-day internet outage due to storms, I'm just reading the latest interesting posts). Antonio I8IOV From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 14 12:17:14 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 12:17:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Source for Trimble Acutime 2000 Connectors? In-Reply-To: <20090714030913.9204539404B@mailhost.idcomm.com> Message-ID: <419491.38878.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, This is the same as the palisade connector. Search the list for pallisade and or g8rpi for an earlier answer. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 14/7/09, Skip Withrow wrote: > From: Skip Withrow > Subject: [time-nuts] Source for Trimble Acutime 2000 Connectors? > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Tuesday, 14 July, 2009, 4:09 AM > > Hello Time-nuts, > I'm looking for the connector to mate with a Trimble > Acutime 2000.? The connector part number is Deutch MMP > 26C-2212S1, pins are 6862-201-22278, and back shell is > 6810-204-2001. > I've tried the usual - Mouser, Digi-Key, and Newark.? > Who is their distributor in the US? > I would even take a used connector cut-off (or not cut off > the cable even) if someone had one laying around the shop. > Any help appreciated. > Regards, > Skip Withrow > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jra at febo.com Tue Jul 14 12:21:29 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 08:21:29 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Administrivia: why your time-nuts posting was rejected Message-ID: <4A5C7849.4070800@febo.com> I'm getting another flurry of messages from folks questioning why they can't post to the list. An example of the error message is below. When you get this message, it is almost invariably for one reason: you are posting from an address that is not subscribed to the list. This often results from use of an alias with a forwarding service, like name at ieee.org or callsign at arrl.net, for incoming mail when outgoing mail is sent from the real address. There are two ways to solve this problem. You can either change your outgoing mail settings so that the "From" address matches the subscribed address. Or, you can create another time-nuts subscription using the real address, but setting the options (via the web interface) to "nomail" to disable message sending to that address. That will avoid duplicate messages. John -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of time-nuts-owner at febo.com Sent: Tuesday, 14 July 2009 4:50 PM To: ******** Subject: Re: [time-nuts] ****************** You are not allowed to post to this mailing list, and your message has been automatically rejected. If you think that your messages are being rejected in error, contact the mailing list owner at time-nuts-owner at febo.com. -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "VK3GJM" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a 10811 OCXO Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:49:30 +1000 Size: 1579 URL: From w1ksz at earthlink.net Tue Jul 14 13:31:15 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:31:15 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector Message-ID: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> How do folks like to connect to this RbO ? Do they use a connector ? Or just solder to the pins ? If they use a Connector can you tell me the Make & Part Number ? Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ From nospam at oceanfree.net Tue Jul 14 14:00:49 2009 From: nospam at oceanfree.net (Eamon Skelton) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:00:49 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector In-Reply-To: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A5C8F91.7030806@oceanfree.net> Richard W. Solomon wrote: > How do folks like to connect to this RbO ? Do they use a connector ? Or just solder to the pins ? > If they use a Connector can you tell me the Make & Part Number ? > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ Cut up a DIP socket. Don't use a nice turned-pin type. Cheap and nasty ones work best. You need two rows of five pins each. Not pretty, but better than soldering the pins. -- Linux 2.6.26 From stijena at tapko.de Tue Jul 14 14:53:02 2009 From: stijena at tapko.de (Predrag Dukic) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:53:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.1.20090714165205.01de8bc0@tapko.de> You can physically move Your antenna to the position that matches some 5 digit exact position. :)) At 00:04 14.7.2009, you wrote: >While playing with getting the Thunderbolt to >supply a more accurate/reliable position, I >came up with a way to filter the lat/lon/alt >data in such a way that you can get a pretty >darned accurate location (a quick test shows sub >1 foot accuracy should be doable). > >The only problem is there seems to be no way to >get the tbolt to accept and/or store that >position. The 0x32 command that sets the >"accurate" position only uses single precision >numbers which are good to around 5 decimal >points. The command that saves the survey >position has no way of letting the user enter >that position. Does anybody know of a way to >get the Tbolt to accept an externally generated high-accuracy position? > >The only way that I can think up that might work >is to calculate the high accuracy position, put >the unit into 3D fix mode, wait until it >randomly comes up with a fix that is very close >to the desired value (which may never >happen), then put the unit into position hold mode... craptastic... >_________________________________________________________________ >Bing? finds low fares by predicting when to book. Try it now. >http://www.bing.com/travel/deals/airline-ticket-deals.do?form=MTRHPG&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MTRHPG_Travel_Travel_TravelDeals_1x1 >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Tue Jul 14 16:31:48 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 10:31:48 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector In-Reply-To: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A5CB2F4.9010003@sasktel.net> I use a 2x5 IDC cable with a connector like this: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=CSC10G-ND For testing, the cable I use comes from a PC. It has this connector on one end and a DB-9 connector (for a serial port) on the other end. I do this because solder-type DB-9 connectors are easy to work with. If you build the LPRO into a piece of equipment, use a cable with the above connector on both ends and put a 2x5 array of pins on your circuit board. Ed Richard W. Solomon wrote: > How do folks like to connect to this RbO ? Do they use a connector ? > Or just solder to the pins ? > If they use a Connector can you tell me the Make & Part Number ? > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 14 16:52:38 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:52:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard W. Solomon" of "Tue, 14 Jul 2009 06:31:15 PDT." <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20090714165239.49FFBBCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > How do folks like to connect to this RbO ? Do they use a connector ? > Or just solder to the pins ? If they use a Connector can you tell me > the Make & Part Number ? They are standard 0.025 square pins on a 0.1 (inch) grid. All the connector companies make something that will work. (probably more than one) Appendix A of the user guide gives part numbers and catalog pages for several companies. The Digikey part number for a 2x5 Molex version is WM2522 That's just the free standing plastic shell. It ignores the screw-posts. (I assume somebody makes something that will screw in there. I don't remember ever seeing one.) You also need pins. You can get the part numbers from the catalog page. Then you need a crimp tool or a friend who has one. ... You can probably find something that will fit ribbon cable. With only a bit of kludgery, that will avoid the crimp tool. The standard mother-board to DB-9 cable will probably work. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 14 17:36:07 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 19:36:07 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: <469856.42037.qm@web81804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don, welcome in the boat. You describe with other words what I am fighting against. There must be a logic behind which we did not find yet. I want to understand what is hidden behind all the setting parameters and find a way to get the 10811 running without degradation but just disciplining the OCXO drift away. But without knowing the logic behind and without a known reference a bit difficult... Regards Arnold On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT), Don @ True-Cal wrote: >Arnold, >I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have been working with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two different 10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the TC large enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few minutes. Both receivers get real unstable and cause large Freq and PPS swings with large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is providing many corrections per minute even with the TBOLT set to 300 secs. Anything larger than 300-500 sec. on the TBolt and EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates to in secs.) on the Fury will cause instability. I have better luck disabling desciplining on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on the Fury (no command to disable that I have found) when I need to do a Tau 0.1-10 sec. low jitter measurement. > Regards... >Don >________________________________ >From: Arnold Tibus >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ; Tom Van Baak >Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:56:56 PM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and adding a10811 OCXO >Tom,: >>> Astonishing for me, >>> I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined >>> mode for a limited time: >>This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO >>like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better >>than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging >>times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to >>run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule >>for long-term. >yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's >OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time >constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and >down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within >2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable >oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! >Arnold From w9ddd at tapr.org Tue Jul 14 20:20:42 2009 From: w9ddd at tapr.org (John Koster) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:20:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A an additional batch of Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDOs has become available. If interested, you may place your order at: http://www.tapr.org/kits_thunder.html If you have questions about the Thunderbolt, please visit the links to leapsecond.com that are near the top of the previouly referenced order page. -- 73, John, W9DDD From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 14 20:23:52 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:23:52 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090714202352.GA27646@puck.nether.net> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 03:20:42PM -0500, John Koster wrote: > A an additional batch of Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDOs has become > available. > > If interested, you may place your order at: > > http://www.tapr.org/kits_thunder.html Are these gone already? "Sorry, this item is no longer available." 73, Majdi, N0RMZ From rdarlington at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 20:25:27 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 14:25:27 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. In-Reply-To: <20090714202352.GA27646@puck.nether.net> References: <20090714202352.GA27646@puck.nether.net> Message-ID: Wow, sold out in 4 minutes ;) On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Majdi S. Abbas wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 03:20:42PM -0500, John Koster wrote: > > A an additional batch of Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDOs has become > > available. > > > > If interested, you may place your order at: > > > > http://www.tapr.org/kits_thunder.html > > Are these gone already? > > "Sorry, this item is no longer available." > > 73, > > Majdi, N0RMZ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From GandalfG8 at aol.com Tue Jul 14 20:27:22 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:27:22 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. Message-ID: In a message dated 14/07/2009 21:26:24 GMT Daylight Time, rdarlington at gmail.com writes: Wow, sold out in 4 minutes ;) Not quite, the order link has only just appeared:-) From w9ddd at tapr.org Tue Jul 14 20:31:11 2009 From: w9ddd at tapr.org (John Koster) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:31:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [time-nuts] [tapr-announce] More Thunderbolts available In-Reply-To: <060BA29F3BF24587B8CB1A93073B7EBC@ibmqgtnmlr1p94> Message-ID: You guys are too quick!!! I knew I should have taken down the 'sold out' sign BEFORE posting the message, but I forgot and did it backwards. Try it again. On Tue, 14 Jul 2009, Sam Carson wrote: > john > The web site says not available > Sam Carson > K4SOC > -- 73, John, W9DDD From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 14 20:35:30 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:35:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] [tapr-announce] More Thunderbolts available In-Reply-To: References: <060BA29F3BF24587B8CB1A93073B7EBC@ibmqgtnmlr1p94> Message-ID: <20090714203530.GB27646@puck.nether.net> On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 03:31:11PM -0500, John Koster wrote: > You guys are too quick!!! Past experience trying for the previous buys has taught me to order immediately ;) Thanks John! 73, Majdi, N0RMZ From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 14 20:38:48 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:38:48 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:32:37 -0700, John Miles wrote: >What are you using for the Kvco constant with your 10811-based Thunderbolt? >If you don't back it down to -0.2 V/Hz, the loop's damping factor will be >very wrong, which might confuse the firmware. Check the Kvco, and also do a >factory reset after changing the OCXO to make sure it forgets anything it >might be remembering about the OEM part. (You might try that, too, Arnold.) >-- john, KE5FX John, I put in as K0 what I measured several times with the 10811 as 'gain' with -0.74 Hz/V. Is that not the right way? I tried to use several times also higher values. The result was not impressiv, did not give clear signs either. A factory reset I did not perform yet, but I am trying at the moment the proposed 0.2 or even a bit lower values. Tomorrow I will check the result, but up to now I do not have a good feeling. What about all these recovery parameter settings? I believe that they are not really counting for this problem. Regards, Arnold From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Tue Jul 14 20:41:21 2009 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:41:21 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andadding a10811 OCXO References: Message-ID: <0a4901ca04c3$73ea7700$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Why not leave the TBolt original OCXO in place and run the 10811 as a separate oscillator phase locked to the TBolt OCXO? Then you have full control over what loop parameters you use in the external PLL, as well as still having the TBolt loop parameters to tweak if necessary. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arnold Tibus" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:36 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andadding a10811 OCXO > Don, > > welcome in the boat. > You describe with other words what I am fighting against. > There must be a logic behind which we did not find yet. > I want to understand what is hidden behind all the setting > parameters > and find a way to get the 10811 running without degradation but > just disciplining the OCXO drift away. > But without knowing the logic behind and without a known reference > a bit difficult... > > Regards > Arnold > > On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT), Don @ True-Cal wrote: > >>Arnold, > >>I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have >>been working with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two different >>10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the TC large >>enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few minutes. Both >>receivers get real unstable and cause large Freq and PPS swings with >>large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is providing many corrections per >>minute even with the TBOLT set to 300 secs. Anything larger than >>300-500 sec. on the TBolt and EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates >>to in secs.) on the Fury will cause instability. I have better luck >>disabling desciplining on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on >>the Fury (no command to disable that I have found) when I need to do >>a Tau 0.1-10 sec. low jitter measurement. >> Regards... >>Don > > > > >>________________________________ >>From: Arnold Tibus >>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>; Tom Van Baak >>Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:56:56 PM >>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and >>adding a10811 OCXO > >>Tom,: > >>>> Astonishing for me, >>>> I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined >>>> mode for a limited time: > >>>This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO >>>like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better >>>than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging >>>times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to >>>run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule >>>for long-term. > >>yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's >>OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time >>constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and >>down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within >>2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable >>oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! > >>Arnold > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.387 / Virus Database: 270.13.13/2237 - Release Date: 07/14/09 05:56:00 From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 14 22:06:02 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:06:02 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization andadding a10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: <0a4901ca04c3$73ea7700$7900a8c0@athlon1200> Message-ID: Dave, there is a clear answer: Why shall I do several rounds when I can succeed in one? If you look to my oadev values achieved with the disciplined 10811 you will see already a significant improvement over the normal TB values I have seen. But there are clear indications that it shall be possible to achieve even better results. The EFC voltage shall not move like the tail of a nervous cat with 400 ?V in 1 to 5 minutes, which does have naturally direkt negative effects to the 10 MHz oscillator. As long as I can see as well the exchange of some SAT signals on the PPS line (sometimes) as jumps of 40 and up to 80 ns, then something must be possible to be done better, that I cannot accept as state of the art. I believe that I should not see that amount of degradation of a good OCXO in the first minutes until I am reaching the turnover or crossing point with the GPS output. The GPS starts to be better not before somewhere between 10 to 20 minutes I understand. Therfore I think to encrease the time constant of TB is important. I would think perhaps to go for two steps as you propose after having set TB properly. I want not to loose th good noise behavior. As second stage one could think if it does make sense to connect a PRS10 - coupled via a signicant higher time constant.... But perhaps I am wrong, I am always open to be convinced by better explanations and to absorb that knowledge. regards Arnold On Wed, 15 Jul 2009 08:41:21 +1200, Dave Brown wrote: >Why not leave the TBolt original OCXO in place and run the 10811 as a >separate oscillator phase locked to the TBolt OCXO? Then you have full >control over what loop parameters you use in the external PLL, as well >as still having the TBolt loop parameters to tweak if necessary. >DaveB, NZ >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Arnold Tibus" >To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > >Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 5:36 AM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization >andadding a10811 OCXO >> Don, >> >> welcome in the boat. >> You describe with other words what I am fighting against. >> There must be a logic behind which we did not find yet. >> I want to understand what is hidden behind all the setting >> parameters >> and find a way to get the 10811 running without degradation but >> just disciplining the OCXO drift away. >> But without knowing the logic behind and without a known reference >> a bit difficult... >> >> Regards >> Arnold >> >> On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 13:15:29 -0700 (PDT), Don @ True-Cal wrote: >> >>>Arnold, >> >>>I have the same question as well as observations as yours. I have >>>been working with both the TBolt and Fury connected to two different >>>10811s. With either the TBolt or Fury, I can't get the TC large >>>enough to only provide a nudge to the EFC every few minutes. Both >>>receivers get real unstable and cause large Freq and PPS swings with >>>large TC numbers. It seems the EFC is providing many corrections per >>>minute even with the TBOLT set to 300 secs. Anything larger than >>>300-500 sec. on the TBolt and EFCD=150 (don't know what the equates >>>to in secs.) on the Fury will cause instability. I have better luck >>>disabling desciplining on the TBolt or disconnecting the antenna on >>>the Fury (no command to disable that I have found) when I need to do >>>a Tau 0.1-10 sec. low jitter measurement. >>> Regards... >>>Don >> >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Arnold Tibus >>>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>>; Tom Van Baak >>>Sent: Monday, July 13, 2009 1:56:56 PM >>>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and >>>adding a10811 OCXO >> >>>Tom,: >> >>>>> Astonishing for me, >>>>> I found that the 10811 does behave better in undisciplined >>>>> mode for a limited time: >> >>>>This is to be expected. An undisciplined high-quality OCXO >>>>like a 10811 will be hundreds or thousands of times better >>>>than the raw output of a GPS receiver at short averaging >>>>times. This is why a GPSDO exists; it allows the OCXO to >>>>run almost free for minutes to hours but allows GPS to rule >>>>for long-term. >> >>>yes that is what I thought, but if I do observe correct, TB's >>>OCXO does not run at all free for minutes. With a time >>>constant of 360s the EFC and thePPS is surfing up and >>>down, why, I do not see the need to shift this OCXO within >>>2 minutes 80ppbs up and pps15ns as well - with this stable >>>oscillator....what is the driver, the SATs (I think not so)! >> >>>Arnold >> From holrum at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 22:28:10 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:28:10 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I implemented a test of getting the tbolt to lock in a precise location. After entering 3D-fix mode, it would fairly reliably output a location within 1 foot of my surveyed (within 4mm lat/lon) spot within 15 minutes of observations. The problem is when I see the location match, I issue the command to enter position hold mode... but the receiver takes 2 seconds to get around to processing that command... during which time it has done two more fixes... which are no longer within the desired error radius... craptastic. I guess I can just keep repeating the process until the receiver stops within the desired radius... which could take quite a while (if ever). _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Tue Jul 14 22:49:45 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:49:45 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:28:10 +0000, Mark Sims wrote: >Well, I implemented a test of getting the tbolt to lock in a precise location. After entering 3D-fix mode, it would fairly reliably output a location within 1 foot of my surveyed (within 4mm lat/lon) spot within 15 minutes of observations. >The problem is when I see the location match, I issue the command to enter position hold mode... but the receiver takes 2 seconds to get around to processing that command... during which time it has done two more fixes... which are no longer within the desired error radius... craptastic. >I guess I can just keep repeating the process until the receiver stops within the desired radius... which could take quite a while (if ever). Hi mark, I tend to smile and I was close to laugh when I read your comment 'craptastic' and I imagined your face :-)) But I feel with you - I have a old fashioned nice theodite (Original Zeiss) and I know quite precise my location around but I tried a lot of time with selfsurvey with TB and put in finally the statistical value out oft it. Perhaps I should check it again....will that really never end? I wish you good luck, Arnold From brooke at pacific.net Tue Jul 14 22:55:59 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 15:55:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5D0CFF.6040005@pacific.net> Hi Mark: 0.00001 degrees (five decimal places) = 0.00060' = 0.0360" of arc. If one second of arc is about 100 feet of longitude then the total distance for 0.00001 degrees is about 3.6 feet. To get latitude multiply by COS(your lat). That way you know how far to move the antenna. But to check apply the above to the Z12 antenna, i.e, see if you can move the Z12 antenna so it's position, after OPUS, is right on a five digit location. One of my goals is to locate a number of survey monuments so that they are on even arc second locations. i.e. 123:24:40.00000000, 123:24:50.00000000, etc. It's an iterative process. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Mark Sims wrote: > Well, I implemented a test of getting the tbolt to lock in a precise location. After entering 3D-fix mode, it would fairly reliably output a location within 1 foot of my surveyed (within 4mm lat/lon) spot within 15 minutes of observations. > > The problem is when I see the location match, I issue the command to enter position hold mode... but the receiver takes 2 seconds to get around to processing that command... during which time it has done two more fixes... which are no longer within the desired error radius... craptastic. > > I guess I can just keep repeating the process until the receiver stops within the desired radius... which could take quite a while (if ever). > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Get 25 GB of free online storage. > http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Jul 14 23:05:17 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:05:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: <4A5D0CFF.6040005@pacific.net> References: <4A5D0CFF.6040005@pacific.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 3:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position Hi Mark: 0.00001 degrees (five decimal places) = 0.00060' = 0.0360" of arc. If one second of arc is about 100 feet of longitude then the total distance for 0.00001 degrees is about 3.6 feet. To get latitude multiply by COS(your lat). That way you know how far to move the antenna. But to check apply the above to the Z12 antenna, i.e, see if you can move the Z12 antenna so it's position, after OPUS, is right on a five digit location. One of my goals is to locate a number of survey monuments so that they are on even arc second locations. i.e. 123:24:40.00000000, 123:24:50.00000000, etc. It's an iterative process. -- Harder than you think.. The cos(latitude) is only an approximation, and you're talking about displacements here where not only do you need to take the spheroid into account, but probably even finer scale aspects. My house moves about 2cm north and 1cm vertically on the average, every year, because of tectonic movement. Over a reasonable period of time, it's entirely possible with typical time-nuts equipment to actually measure this (check out the SCIGN, for instance) Tidal displacement of the earth's surface is something else you should be taking care of. I believe that crustal deformation is on the order of a few tens of cm. A GPS guy I know comments that when you start talking down in the sub-meter sorts of accuracies, particularly for absolute measurements, there's a whole raft of factors that are all of the same general magnitude that you need to take into account: tidal deformation, ionosphere, multipath, thermal distortion of your antenna, changes in the cable due to temperature, etc.etc.etc. From rchensley at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 23:46:21 2009 From: rchensley at gmail.com (Ron Hensley) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:46:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <326e15be0907141646j428924f9m5d3f701782d0c9c1@mail.gmail.com> Good morning Ulrich.... I have a HP/Z3801 for a number of years. My communication program is quite old. Would you please send me a updated copy of this new version Thank you. Ron Hensley WB6RNH RCHENSLEY at GMAIL>COM On 7/14/09, Ulrich Bangert wrote: > > Gents, > > a new version of Z38XX is available for download. > > 1) It addresses most of the typos that Kit and Murray have found. > > 2) I detects fractional EFC numbers and changes number formats and EFC > scale > according to that. > > Enjoy > > Ulrich Bangert > www.ulrich-bangert.de > Ortholzer Weg 1 > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Ron Hensley 408-857-2261 408-248-1382 RCHENSLEY at GMAIL.COM From jmiles at pop.net Wed Jul 15 01:36:23 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 18:36:23 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimizationand addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > I put in as K0 what I measured several times with the 10811 > as 'gain' with -0.74 Hz/V. Is that not the right way? Yes, that's fine. Because the varactor is nonlinear and a small part of the overall tank circuit C, the tuning gain depends on the adjustment-screw setting to some extent. Specifying it within a factor of 2x is reasonably OK, but it's always better to measure the actual gain by adjusting the tuning-DAC parameter manually with the output centered at 10.000... MHz. > I tried to > use several times also higher values. The result was not impressiv, > did not give clear signs either. > > A factory reset I did not perform yet, but I am trying at the moment > the proposed 0.2 or even a bit lower values. Tomorrow I will > check the result, but up to now I do not have a good feeling. I just pulled my 10811-equipped TBolt out of storage after several months, and it powered up in a rather confused state. Before I did a factory reset on mine, the reported PPS/10 MHz deviations were entirely fictional. It was reporting reasonable values, but in reality, it wasn't steering the oscillator closer than a few parts in 1E-8. The factory reset cycle fixed the odd behavior (note that you have to re-enter the tuning-sensitivity parameter after doing that). -- john, KE5FX From kitscally at iprimus.com.au Wed Jul 15 02:10:50 2009 From: kitscally at iprimus.com.au (kitscally at iprimus.com.au) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:10:50 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX In-Reply-To: <326e15be0907141646j428924f9m5d3f701782d0c9c1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A42738100018625@cpms01.int.iprimus.net.au> Ron, You will find all of Ulrich's programmes here: Cheers, Kit >-- Original Message -- >Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:46:21 -0700 >From: Ron Hensley >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX >Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > >Good morning Ulrich.... > >I have a HP/Z3801 for a number of years. My communication program is quite >old. Would you please send me a updated copy of this new version > >Thank you. > >Ron Hensley >WB6RNH >RCHENSLEY at GMAIL>COM > >>>snip From SAIDJACK at aol.com Wed Jul 15 03:30:41 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:30:41 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Stable Z38XX for Fury/FireFly GPSDOs Message-ID: Hi guys, I am very excited to say that Ulrich's latest Z38xx program now works quite well on our FireFly GPSDO units. Very impressive program Ulrich! I haven't tried it on our Fury's yet, but I am pretty confident it will work just as well. Thanks much again Ulrich, great job! Said From holrum at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 04:51:16 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:51:16 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My Ashtech Z12 system has located my g-spot to within 4mm lat/lon and 27mm altitude. I used the OPUS-RS system to process 1.5 hours of data using 9 baselines to national CORS reference stations and the rapid (1-day) orbits... not too shabby for 15+ year old technology. The fix should be even more accurate when the precise (two week) orbits are available. Now, if I can only get those numbers into the Tbolt... Doing some statistical hand waving over the fixes produced by the Tbolt, I think I can get it to find its antenna to within around 1 foot. So far, the fixes that I can get it to produce look much better than the standard self survey results. Again, it may be an exercise in futility if I can't get the Tbolt to accept and store a precise location. ---------------------------------------- A GPS guy I know comments that when you start talking down in the sub-meter sorts of accuracies, particularly for absolute measurements, there's a whole raft of factors that are all of the same general magnitude that you need to take into account: tidal deformation, ionosphere, multipath, thermal distortion of your antenna, changes in the cable due to temperature, etc.etc.etc.> ***************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From tvb at LeapSecond.com Wed Jul 15 05:15:13 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 22:15:13 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position References: Message-ID: <40DBE4750B5146489878D8FCCAF7820C@pc52> Mark, Nice work on the Z12. Now one idea for you on the TBolt. Before you spend too much time trying to nail it down to the foot or inch you might want to see what effect being off by a couple feet or meters actually has on your TBolt timing. For this you want to compare the 1pps output against a good local standard (I hope you have a cesium by now). I don't know for sure, but I wonder if there could be enough other error sources in the entire timing chain that your super precise position is moot for typical cheap GPSDO. I would say the same thing to someone spending a great deal of time regulating temperature to 0.01 C -- at some point minor variation in temperature is no longer the low hanging fruit for a GPSDO; further effort does not pay off, or is not even measurable. So I wonder at what point in the real life operation of a Z3801A or TBolt that further steps in accurate position are no longer fruitful? Has anyone on the list deliberately offset their XYZ position by a meter or two or three to see what effect it has on the 10 MHz stability or the 1pps accuracy (again, measured against a suitable local atomic clock). /tvb From holrum at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 05:48:28 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 05:48:28 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well it started as a simple exercise in "Hey, now that really I know where I am, how close can a Tbolt get". Well, it looks like a foot or so may be doable. Might be useful for something, even if it does not help the timing application. Then the thing showed its stupid limitation of not being able to enter a precise (double precision) location. In fact if you figure 3 microdegrees/foot, a 24 bit mantissa single precision floating point number will only get you to around 50 feet. You can't arbitrarily offset your location by just a meter or two... If you want better than 50 feet all you can do is use the self-survey results. Right now, I don't really care if it is useful, I'm gonna find a way to cram a precise location into the beast, even if I have to pound it in with a sledge hammer... then we'll see what difference it makes. And 50 feet of error could easily be around 50 nanoseconds... ---------------------------------------- Before you spend too much time trying to nail it down to the foot or inch you might want to see what effect being off by a couple feet or meters actually has on your TBolt timing _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Wed Jul 15 08:01:22 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 09:01:22 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I never even saw the message announcing they were avaialable! I've checked back in my archive, it never got sent to the digest as far as I can see. Yahoo are messing with things, so ??? I also subscribe to the TAPR announcement list, but other than call for papers etc, I never see anything on that either. Regards. Dave B G0WBX > -----Original Message----- > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: More Thunderbolts available. (Majdi S. Abbas) > 2. Re: More Thunderbolts available. (Robert Darlington) > 3. Re: More Thunderbolts available. (GandalfG8 at aol.com) > 4. Re: [tapr-announce] More Thunderbolts available (John Koster) > 5. Re: [tapr-announce] More Thunderbolts available (Majdi S. Abbas) > 6. Re: Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimization and From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Jul 15 08:11:50 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:11:50 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. Message-ID: In a message dated 15/07/2009 09:02:26 GMT Daylight Time, dave at uk-ar.co.uk writes: I never even saw the message announcing they were avaialable! I've checked back in my archive, it never got sent to the digest as far as I can see. Yahoo are messing with things, so ??? Hi Dave If you want one, they are still showing as being available as of time of this email..... _http://www.tapr.org/kits_thunder.html_ (http://www.tapr.org/kits_thunder.html) regards Nigel GM8PZR From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Jul 15 08:13:22 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:13:22 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. Message-ID: In a message dated 15/07/2009 09:02:26 GMT Daylight Time, dave at uk-ar.co.uk writes: Yahoo are messing with things, so ??? PS This isn't a Yahoo group:-) From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Wed Jul 15 12:14:37 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:14:37 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 60, Issue 63 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message: 5 > Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:13:22 EDT > From: GandalfG8 at aol.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] More Thunderbolts available. > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > > In a message dated 15/07/2009 09:02:26 GMT Daylight Time, > dave at uk-ar.co.uk > writes: > > Yahoo are messing with things, so ??? > > > > > PS > > This isn't a Yahoo group:-) Indeed....! Just that so many other lists I monitor are suffering because of their "Maintenance", the rest get tar'd with the same brush at times... I just got the Original TAPR announement (at 1200 UTC). Seems the Digest logic held the one single message for some hours. 130 USD, with unknown shipping costs for a t'bolt, OK tested and selected. Not 100% sure now if I "Need" one that much after all that, as I now have other sources of the needed 1PPS GPS signal and time stamp. Regards. Dave B G0WBX. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Wed Jul 15 14:57:17 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:57:17 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX Message-ID: Guys, I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: 1) Displays time AND date in the Nixie clock window 2) Knows how to read date & time from Jackson Labs receivers, so the the clock window will function with them too. 3) Has a new "Manual Command Entry" which, well...., allows manual command entry. The combobox still needs to be filled with more presets but you can actually type in whatever you want. Note that the normal communication thread is paused while this window is open. So close it whenever it is not used. Enjoy Ulrich Bangert Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 15 16:26:21 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:26:21 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C5F103DA87D4254A34E80ABA91531DF@APOLLO> Any plan to make it work with the thunderbolts as well? Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Ulrich Bangert Sent: 15 July 2009 15:57 To: Time nuts Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX Guys, I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: From masondg44 at comcast.net Wed Jul 15 17:13:06 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 13:13:06 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A Message-ID: <0796ECE30F064E13A0311F64A1871410@D77M7BF1> I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is acting up. I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics. I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics. I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought the manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck. Can someone point me to a source? Many thanks!! Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net I went to a bookstore and asked the saleswoman, "Where's the self-help section?" She said if she told me, it would defeat the purpose. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Wed Jul 15 17:51:39 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:51:39 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX In-Reply-To: <8C5F103DA87D4254A34E80ABA91531DF@APOLLO> Message-ID: <391CA874A7F8419D9098F1417BFE28D5@athlon> Dave, > Any plan to make it work with the thunderbolts as well? I own a thunderbolt, so let us see..... Best regards Ulrich Bangert > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von David C. Partridge > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 15. Juli 2009 18:26 > An: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Z38XX > > > Any plan to make it work with the thunderbolts as well? > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Ulrich Bangert > Sent: 15 July 2009 15:57 > To: Time nuts > Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX > > Guys, > > I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the > following improvements: > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 15 17:53:35 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 10:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] [Fwd: Accurate Thunderbolt position] In-Reply-To: <11305DF1-3BE2-4C0C-9226-F5D36A6E3D05@mit.edu> References: <1059.12.6.201.137.1247669709.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <11305DF1-3BE2-4C0C-9226-F5D36A6E3D05@mit.edu> Message-ID: <1989.12.6.201.206.1247680415.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> "Mark Sims" wrote: >> >> My Ashtech Z12 system has located my g-spot to within 4mm lat/lon >> and 27mm altitude. I forwarded the full post to a good friend who knows a LOT about GPS and herewith is his reply: > The Z-12 is an excellent receiver and should determine lat. & lon. > within 4 mm. Height uncertainty is always greater, usually by a > factor of three. This guy's height uncertainty is anomalously large > -- greater than his lat. or lon. uncertainty by a factor of about > seven(!). The most likely reason for his large height uncertainty is > that he failed to observe satellites all the way from high elevation > angles (greater than about 70 deg) down to low elevations (certainly > below 15 deg, preferably below 10 deg, and even better, down to 5 deg). > > It is _important_ to observe down to low elevation because only at low > elevation can tropospheric thickness be distinguished from height (and > relatedly, from receiver clock synchronization offset). The signature > of height in the pseudorange phase-delay (carrier phase) observable is > proportional to the cosine of the zenith angle. The signature of > receiver clock synchronization offset is constant, so the only useful > parts of the height signature are its slope (the linear term in a > Taylor-series expansion in powers of the zenith angle) and curvature > (the quadratic term in this Taylor series). (The software that > analyzes GPS observations does not use Taylor series; it uses > trigonometry. However, for mental understanding it can be useful to > _think_ of the terms of a Taylor series.) > > The signature of tropospheric thickness is approximately proportional > to the secant of the zenith angle. (The proportionality would be > exact if the Earth were flat and the troposphere were horizontally > stratified with any vertical profile.) In a Taylor-series expansion > of the signature of tropospheric thickness as a function of zenith > angle, the constant, linear, and quadratic terms are similar to, or > are masked by, the combination of receiver clock and height. To > distinguish height from troposphere you need to see the _next_ term in > the series, the cubic term. More accurately speaking, you need to see > the pseudorange blow up as the zenith angle approaches 90 degrees and > the secant approaches infinity. The near-singularity at the horizon > is a unique signature, and by far your best handle on the > troposphere. If you pin down the troposphere by observing close to > the horizon, then your only problem is to distinguish clock-offset > from height, which is easy if you have observed from zenith angle < 20 > degrees to zenith angle > 70 deg. > > _Then_ your height uncertainty will still be three times your lat. or > lon. uncertainty because you saw the signature of latitude vary almost > from -1 to +1 when you observed satellites low in the north and low in > the south; and you saw the signature of longitude vary almost from -1 > to +1 when you observed satellites low in the east and low in the > west; but you saw the signature of height vary only from about +0.94 > ( = cos 70 deg ) to about +0.25 ( = sin 15 deg ). So your handle on > height was smaller than your handle on lat. or lon. by a factor of > about three. > > I kinda rushed through this explanation. I hope it made some sense to > you. > > If this guy cares most about clock sync., then he needs to determine > height well, so he needs to determine tropospheric thickness, so he > needs to observe down to low elevations. He may have been unable to > observe low elevations because his antenna's view of the sky was > blocked by houses and trees. If so, then he should put his antenna up > on a pole, and in the middle of a wide open space. > >> I used the OPUS-RS system to process 1.5 hours of data.... > > A GPS satellite moves through the sky by less than a radian in 1.5 > hours. In order to watch each satellite move through a wide range of > elevation or zenith angle, from culmination (max. el.) to as close to > the horizon as possible, he should observe longer than 1.5 hours. At > least three hours. Preferably six. If he's at home, or at any fixed > location, 24 hours. Why not? The receiver and the data-processing > software will handle 24 hours of observing all available satellites > with no sweat; and the data-processing s/w will be much happier with > its simultaneous solution for lat., lon., height, clock-offset, clock > rate, and troposphere. > > Observing only 1.5 hours makes sense only when the distance between > receiver-antennas is small so that the troposphere cancels well > between them, and/or if you don't care about millimeter-level position > (or picosecond-level clock) accuracy. > > In land surveying, it's customary to observe at least twice as long as > it takes to travel to a site and set up; and for longer if the > customer is paying for accuracy. > > >> using 9 baselines to national CORS reference stations... > > Excellent. That's how it's done by people who know. > >> and the rapid (1-day) orbits... > > Which is fine for rapid results and/or for short distances. For > longer distances, after you allow for travel time and time spent > writing a report, you may as well use precise (two-week) ephemerides, > and you'll want to if your customer is paying for accuracy. > >> not too shabby for 15+ year old technology. > > The only thing shabby was the height determination, as discussed above. > >> The fix should be even more accurate when the precise (two week) >> orbits are available. > > Yes, but the height will still be poorly determined, as discussed above. > [snip] > >> Doing some statistical hand waving over the fixes produced by the >> Tbolt, >> I think I can get it to find its antenna to within around 1 foot. >> So far, >> the fixes that I can get it to produce look much better than the >> standard >> self survey results. Again, it may be an exercise in futility if I >> can't >> get the Tbolt to accept and store a precise location. > > ?? > > >> A GPS guy I know comments that when you start talking down in the >> sub-meter sorts of accuracies, particularly for absolute >> measurements... > > I wish people would not imagine that GPS measurements are "absolute." > If you don't determine position with respect to reference points on > the ground by DGPS, then you are determining position with respect to > a particular combination of satellite orbital position coordinates and > clock-offset parameters that you got from real-time broadcasts or > perhaps later via the Internet from someone. Those position- > coordinate and clock-offset parameter values were determined by > someone who _assumed_ position-coordinate values for certain ground > stations. (Real-time broadcasts suffer substantially from > extrapolation; and short-time orbit-determinations usually also > involve a significant amount of extrapolation.) There ain't no such > thing as absolute position, any more than there is "absolute time." > All position and all time measurements are _relative_ to some man-made > and man-maintained "standard." If you are talking about state-of-the- > art, research-grade measurements, then it is essential to understand > the relevant standards. > > >> there's a whole raft of factors that are all of the same general >> magnitude >> that you need to take into account: tidal deformation, ionosphere, >> multipath, thermal distortion of your antenna, changes in the cable >> due to >> temperature, etc.etc.etc.> > > The factors recited in the above-quoted paragraph are _NOT_ all of the > same magnitude. Not even close. > > In principle, there is no upper limit on the magnitudes of the errors > that bad hardware, bad software, or a bad operator may commit. > However, with an Ashtech Z-12 receiver (which is a good geodetic-grade > receiver), a good geodetic-grade antenna, good geodetic-grade > software, and a knowledgeable operator, NONE of these factors is > significant at the meter level. > > Only one of them rises above the decimeter level. Proper data- > processing algorithms reduce sensitivity to half of them to below the > _millimeter_ level. Proper differencing between satellites reduces > cable effects to _way_ below the millimeter level. > > Only a totally inappropriate antenna would introduce thermal effects > above the millimeter level. Only with a bad antenna COMBINED with > inappropriate observing and inappropriate data-processing, could > multipath cause errors greater than a few millimeters. [Yes, > multipath can affect the group-delay (a.k.a. code delay) of a signal > by more than a nanosecond, equivalent to more than 30 cm or range. > However, in proper data-processing, group-delay observations are > utilized only to get a first, rough, position and clock-offset > determination or "fix." Then the software utilizes carrier-phase > observations to determine position at the few-millimeter to millimeter > to submillimeter level (depending on distance from a reference > station) and the receiver clock synchronization offset at the > picosecond level. > > Only with a single-band receiver, with inappropriate observing, and/or > with inappropriate data-processing, could the ionosphere cause errors > greater than a centimeter. > > Of all the named factors, only solid-Earth tide is a decimeter-level > effect. Straightforward modeling in software reduces its residual > effect to less than a centimeter, or less for distances under 1000 km. > [snip] ********** I've omitted his name as he is really too busy consulting to participate in much correspondance. Best, -John From swithrow at idcomm.com Wed Jul 15 18:15:51 2009 From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:15:51 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Acutime GPS Connector Update Message-ID: <20090715181551.D72603940BE@mailhost.idcomm.com> Just so the information is archived somewhere, here is an update on the Deutch connectors for Trimble Acutime and Palisade GPS receivers. The Deutch MMP series of connector is no longer available and has been replaced by the IMC series. The mating connector body to the GPS receivers is IMC26-2212X. The female pins are part number 6862-201-22278 (this number did not change). The backshell for the connector is believed to be part number IMC2AD. These Deutch connectors are distributed in the US by Ladd Inc. (www.laddinc.com), phone is 800-223-1236. They will do small quantities and take credit card orders. Regards, Skip Withrow From SAIDJACK at aol.com Wed Jul 15 18:16:12 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 14:16:12 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX Message-ID: Hello Ulrich, I tested this, and it works like a charm on the FireFly units. Thanks much again! Said In a message dated 7/15/2009 07:58:03 Pacific Daylight Time, df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de writes: Guys, I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: 1) Displays time AND date in the Nixie clock window 2) Knows how to read date & time from Jackson Labs receivers, so the the clock window will function with them too. From rchensley at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:46:54 2009 From: rchensley at gmail.com (Ron Hensley) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:46:54 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX In-Reply-To: <4A42738100018625@cpms01.int.iprimus.net.au> References: <326e15be0907141646j428924f9m5d3f701782d0c9c1@mail.gmail.com> <4A42738100018625@cpms01.int.iprimus.net.au> Message-ID: <326e15be0907151146v4bf6d453g5051b66742d1c4bb@mail.gmail.com> Thank you. Ron H. On 7/14/09, kitscally at iprimus.com.au wrote: > > Ron, > > You will find all of Ulrich's programmes here: < > http://ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html> > > Cheers, > > Kit > >-- Original Message -- > >Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 16:46:21 -0700 > >From: Ron Hensley > >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement < > time-nuts at febo.com> > >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New version of Z38XX > >Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > > > > > >Good morning Ulrich.... > > > >I have a HP/Z3801 for a number of years. My communication program is quite > >old. Would you please send me a updated copy of this new version > > > >Thank you. > > > >Ron Hensley > >WB6RNH > >RCHENSLEY at GMAIL>COM > > > >>>snip > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Ron Hensley 408-857-2261 408-248-1382 RCHENSLEY at GMAIL.COM From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Wed Jul 15 20:57:50 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:57:50 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderbolt setup optimizationand addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: John, >> >> I put in as K0 what I measured several times with the 10811 >> as 'gain' with -0.74 Hz/V. Is that not the right way? >Yes, that's fine. Because the varactor is nonlinear and a small part of the >overall tank circuit C, the tuning gain depends on the adjustment-screw >setting to some extent. Specifying it within a factor of 2x is reasonably >OK, but it's always better to measure the actual gain by adjusting the >tuning-DAC parameter manually with the output centered at 10.000... MHz. I had checked for the 0 offset point for 10.0 MHz down to 1 ?V and stepped from this point some ?V and mV in both directions away and did calculate the gain in Hz/V. Yes, I saw the unlinearity at higher values. It is a bit difficult to find the correct value because the fluctuations, I could define finally the Kosc as -0.74025V. >> I tried to >> use several times also higher values. The result was not impressiv, >> did not give clear signs either. >> >> A factory reset I did not perform yet, but I am trying at the moment >> the proposed 0.2 or even a bit lower values. Tomorrow I will >> check the result, but up to now I do not have a good feeling. >I just pulled my 10811-equipped TBolt out of storage after several months, >and it powered up in a rather confused state. Before I did a factory reset >on mine, the reported PPS/10 MHz deviations were entirely fictional. It was >reporting reasonable values, but in reality, it wasn't steering the >oscillator closer than a few parts in 1E-8. The factory reset cycle fixed >the odd behavior (note that you have to re-enter the tuning-sensitivity >parameter after doing that). I made a reset with the Trimble program to the factory values and made then a new self survey. The result does look similar as before with the Trimble std. parameters, the oadev values better as with the original OCXO. But all the values do look worse as the oscillator alone - looking specially for tau between 1 and 500. Then I corrected the Kosc. to -0.74 Hz/V and increased the time const. to 600 and lowered the damping factor somewhat. Looks like the values are coming closer to the origin osc. amounts but it is very slow and the pps offset does not seem to go down (shifting manually with the delay input is not the right way). How can one find out the influence of the correct antenna position with that movements of EFC (250 ?V in 15 min and sudden jumps of 100 ?V due to a SAT change) ? Perhaps the Thunderbolt is not designed to gain from better OCXOs? Does the TB perhaps ' learn', but very slow (what I cannot imagine)? I think that any influences due to antenna types and small position changes of the antenna are not of practical importance under these conditions. I never saw a difference when run in original version changing between special Irvine, HP, QF-Helix or cheap Patch Antennas. How do you realize theset influences? What are your results for the TB with the 10811 on EFC, PPS and Osc.? What setting are you applying? I am keen on to see the values from other TBs, there must already be hundreds around. running ... Regards Arnold From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Wed Jul 15 21:33:31 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:33:31 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US Message-ID: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) Regards - JM From holrum at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 21:45:50 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:45:50 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] [Fwd: Accurate Thunderbolt position] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The NGS OPUS GPS processing system has two versions. OPUS-S is a static version that processes long data sets (over 2 hours) using only three CORS base stations. It calculates the three base lines and says you are in the middle of where they land. They report the position error as the peak-peak difference in the three baselines. I have had fairly poor luck getting good results from it. Most results have p-p errors of 5-10 cm. OPUS-RS is the "rapid static" system. It only works with data sets from 15 minutes to 2 hours long. It works by solving a least squares fit of data from 9 reference station baselines. When you can get a data set that it accepts the results seem to be quite good. Problems can arise finding nine nearby base stations that can supply references of sufficient quality to solve the equations. One problem with the OPUS system is when it finds something it does not like (like bad reference station data) it stops there and reports that error. It does not check the rest of the user data or reference station data. You wind up spending a lot of effort finding a set of reference stations (or not finding them) that will work. The place where my test antenna is set up is in a very highly treed area (with very high trees) with a two story house 20 feet away, stainless steel fence/reinforced stucco wall 5 feet away, wrought iron fence across the street, etc. LOTS of multipath, very poor sky visibility, etc. I have the antenna mask angle set at 15 degrees. The atmospheric modeling issues are somewhat mitigated by the availability of lots of high quality reference stations within 30km or so. The fact that it could cough up the fixes that it does is rather amazing... ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From TimeNut at austin.rr.com Wed Jul 15 21:53:15 2009 From: TimeNut at austin.rr.com (Graham / KE9H) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:53:15 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: <326e15be0907151146v4bf6d453g5051b66742d1c4bb@mail.gmail.com> References: <326e15be0907141646j428924f9m5d3f701782d0c9c1@mail.gmail.com> <4A42738100018625@cpms01.int.iprimus.net.au> <326e15be0907151146v4bf6d453g5051b66742d1c4bb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A5E4FCB.9070400@austin.rr.com> I assume we have an above average interest in physics on this list. Microsoft is hosting the classic Feynman "Messenger" series of lectures, for free as part of the Tuva project. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/15/microsoft_feynman_lectures/ http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva/index.html --- Graham / KE9H == From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 21:59:46 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:59:46 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: John, I had the same problem from Australia. And when they did ship the postage would be more than the unit! I had to wait and wait and wait. Finally (after years) a good seller who packed well, priced well put one up and I won. Even if no one takes up your offer - if you do wait one will turn up. It's even worth asking them if they say not outside the US. Some don't offer because they think no one would pay $100 for postage - when in fact we would. Jim 2009/7/16 John May > I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered > for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've > been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units > because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! > > Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > > I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help > reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > > Regards - JM > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sam at canardpc.com Wed Jul 15 22:13:25 2009 From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC]) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 00:13:25 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <016a01ca0599$79532df0$6bf989d0$@com> www.shipito.com They shipped many, many parcels from the US to France for me. From lightweight BNC adapter to old HP boat anchor (75+ lbs). Prices are really low. I also use it when the seller only use expensive UPS service to ship overseas. But don't mess with identity verification procedure. --------------------- Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER Presse Non Stop - Canard PC http://www.canardpc.com Tel : +33.6.13.73.4003 MSN : sam at x86.fr -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de John May Envoy??: mercredi 15 juillet 2009 23:34 ??: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Objet?: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) Regards - JM _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 15 22:17:22 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:17:22 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] [Fwd: Accurate Thunderbolt position] In-Reply-To: <1989.12.6.201.206.1247680415.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1059.12.6.201.137.1247669709.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <11305DF1-3BE2-4C0C-9226-F5D36A6E3D05@mit.edu> <1989.12.6.201.206.1247680415.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:54 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] [Fwd: Accurate Thunderbolt position] "Mark Sims" wrote: >> >> My Ashtech Z12 system has located my g-spot to within 4mm lat/lon >> and 27mm altitude. I forwarded the full post to a good friend who knows a LOT about GPS and herewith is his reply: > >> A GPS guy I know comments that when you start talking down in the >> sub-meter sorts of accuracies, particularly for absolute >> measurements... > > I wish people would not imagine that GPS measurements are "absolute." > If you don't determine position with respect to reference points on > the ground by DGPS, then you are determining position with respect to > a particular combination of satellite orbital position coordinates and > clock-offset parameters that you got from real-time broadcasts or > perhaps later via the Internet from someone. Those position- > coordinate and clock-offset parameter values were determined by > someone who _assumed_ position-coordinate values for certain ground > stations. (Real-time broadcasts suffer substantially from > extrapolation; and short-time orbit-determinations usually also > involve a significant amount of extrapolation.) There ain't no such > thing as absolute position, any more than there is "absolute time." > All position and all time measurements are _relative_ to some man-made > and man-maintained "standard." If you are talking about state-of-the- > art, research-grade measurements, then it is essential to understand > the relevant standards. Yes indeed.. > > >> there's a whole raft of factors that are all of the same general >> magnitude >> that you need to take into account: tidal deformation, ionosphere, >> multipath, thermal distortion of your antenna, changes in the cable >> due to >> temperature, etc.etc.etc.> > > The factors recited in the above-quoted paragraph are _NOT_ all of the > same magnitude. Not even close. > When I was talking to my GPS guy, we were talking single channel, non-geodetic receivers and antennas, and his point was that there's a lot of stuff that you need to be aware of when you go the next step beyond a simple handheld GPS in your car. As you've mentioned, dual frequency, good antennas, etc. are all a given when doing mm scale measurements. The tidal deformation one was interesting to me, because I hadn't thought that it was that big. Model-out-able, certainly, but interesting none-the-less. From danrae at verizon.net Wed Jul 15 22:24:16 2009 From: danrae at verizon.net (Dan Rae) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:24:16 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5E570F.2030506@verizon.net> The problem here, more likely than not, is the restrictive provisions made by the US authorities over the end use of military surplus. It is not worth upsetting the men in black, believe me. A lot of surplus gear cannot legally be sold to a non US citizen, even with a US address. dr From rdarlington at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 22:29:23 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 16:29:23 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: A quick trip to usps.com for a 40 pound package, 24" x 24" x 10" from the States to Great Britain / Northern Ireland comes out to $144.50 - $199.25 USD depending on the service. I certainly don't mind being the middle man. Send me an email offline if you want to do this. -Bob On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 3:33 PM, John May wrote: > I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered > for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've > been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units > because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! > > Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > > I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help > reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > > Regards - JM > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Wed Jul 15 22:39:32 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:39:32 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5E5AA4.4050104@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Blimey Jim, you're a patient man! To be fair most individual sellers are happy enough to ship abroad if you ask them, it's the bigger dealers who seem to have rules carved in granite tablets... Jim Palfreyman wrote: > John, > > I had the same problem from Australia. And when they did ship the postage > would be more than the unit! I had to wait and wait and wait. Finally (after > years) a good seller who packed well, priced well put one up and I won. > > Even if no one takes up your offer - if you do wait one will turn up. > > It's even worth asking them if they say not outside the US. Some don't offer > because they think no one would pay $100 for postage - when in fact we > would. > > Jim > > 2009/7/16 John May > >> I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered >> for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've >> been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units >> because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! >> >> Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary >> (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? >> >> I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside >> time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help >> reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) >> >> Regards - JM >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 15 22:39:03 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 15:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <2761.12.6.201.41.1247697543.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Take a look here: http://www.shipito.com/ I have never dealt w/ them, so I know nothing about their quality. They were mentioned on another list. FWIW, -John ============ > I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is > offered for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship > overseas. I've been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few > nice looking units because of this. There's one sitting there just now > just to tease me! > > Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > > I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could > help reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > > Regards - JM > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Wed Jul 15 22:43:08 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:43:08 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <016a01ca0599$79532df0$6bf989d0$@com> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> <016a01ca0599$79532df0$6bf989d0$@com> Message-ID: <4A5E5B7C.40707@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Samuel, Thanks for the pointer to this service. I've just created an account, since it seems to offer *exactly* what I need. Samuel D. [x86/CPC] wrote: > www.shipito.com > > They shipped many, many parcels from the US to France for me. From > lightweight BNC adapter to old HP boat anchor (75+ lbs). Prices are really > low. I also use it when the seller only use expensive UPS service to ship > overseas. > > But don't mess with identity verification procedure. > > --------------------- > Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER > Presse Non Stop - Canard PC > http://www.canardpc.com > Tel : +33.6.13.73.4003 > MSN : sam at x86.fr > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la > part de John May > Envoy? : mercredi 15 juillet 2009 23:34 > ? : Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Objet : [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US > > I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is > offered for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship > overseas. I've been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few > nice looking units because of this. There's one sitting there just now > just to tease me! > > Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > > I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could > help reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > > Regards - JM > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From fortime at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 15 23:31:20 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:31:20 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A References: <0796ECE30F064E13A0311F64A1871410@D77M7BF1> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave M" To: "Yahoo Manual Exchange" ; "TimeNuts" Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:13 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A >I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is acting > up. I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics. > I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics. > I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought the > manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck. > Can someone point me to a source? > > Many thanks!! > Dave M > masondg44 at comcast dot net Dave, I have that manual and could perhaps scan "SOME" of the pages you need but it is large or thick and all the schematics are fold out pages. Most of the manual is schematics. Have you isolated the problem to a board or section? Phil From EWKehren at aol.com Thu Jul 16 00:19:11 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:19:11 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US Message-ID: You have it all wrong. Having friends in the business, I can tell you what is going on. The reason the larger dealers have the restriction is, that some or most of their products come from companies that do business with the government. They are forced by contract to restrict sales to US addresses only and are presently facing ways to even make it more restrictive. Government agencies audit these sellers and violations as a minimum results in loss of business. To reduce that risk and not having to account for what came from where, many sellers opt for total "no foreign sales". Intentional circumvention of that restriction can result in prosecution. Be cageful. Don't ask me what I think of the governments actions. Bert Kehren WB5MZJ In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:40:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk writes: Blimey Jim, you're a patient man! To be fair most individual sellers are happy enough to ship abroad if you ask them, it's the bigger dealers who seem to have rules carved in granite tablets... Jim Palfreyman wrote: > John, > > I had the same problem from Australia. And when they did ship the postage > would be more than the unit! I had to wait and wait and wait. Finally (after > years) a good seller who packed well, priced well put one up and I won. > > Even if no one takes up your offer - if you do wait one will turn up. > > It's even worth asking them if they say not outside the US. Some don't offer > because they think no one would pay $100 for postage - when in fact we > would. > > Jim > > 2009/7/16 John May > >> I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is offered >> for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. I've >> been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking units >> because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! >> >> Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary >> (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? >> >> I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside >> time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could help >> reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) >> >> Regards - JM >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the tix you need for this summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) From rexa at sonic.net Thu Jul 16 00:27:19 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:27:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX -- Z3816A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5E73E7.70607@sonic.net> Ulrich, First, many thanks for all the delevopment you have done and share freely. You and John Miles are both to be commended for so much of this kind of work. I have a Z3816A and tried your program. Seems it would need to be updated to support this GPS receiver. I think it is pretty similar, in commands, to the other Z38xx boxes. I wonder if you would be willing to try adding support? If you are willing to look at it, I have put some details in this message. Feel free to contact me -- rexa at xertech.net -- if you need more specifics or testing from my Z3816A. -Rex, KK6MK There are some possible serial initialization issues. The help section from GPSCon, describing this, can be found in the middle of this page: http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Z3816A_Receiver.htm (something odd happened with one of the pictures on that page.) The command structure is very close to chapters 4 and 5 in this document: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp58540a/097-58540-01-iss-1.pdf with a similar description of the :SYST:COMM commands in this one: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp58540a/097-58540-01-iss-1.pdf I used a serial terminal at 9600 baud to talk to my receiver and capture the sequence below. I started with the 3816 serial interface in FDUP (full duplex) mode so that the commands I sent show in the capture. For normal communication it should be turned off, as I did near the end. --- begin capture --- (viewed best with fixed width font) :SYST:COMM:SER1:FDUP? 1 scpi > :PTIM:TCOD:CONT? 0 scpi > *IDN? HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3816A,3703A00148,4001-A scpi > :SYST:STAT? ------------------------------- Receiver Status ------------------------------- SYNCHRONIZATION ............................................. [ Outputs Valid ] SmartClock Mode ___________________________ Reference Outputs _______________ >> Locked to GPS TFOM 3 FFOM 0 Recovery 1PPS TI +2.8 ns relative to GPS Holdover HOLD THR 1.000 us Power-up Holdover Uncertainty ____________ Predict 5.4 us/initial 24 hrs ACQUISITION ................................................ [ GPS 1PPS Valid ] Tracking: 6 ____ Not Tracking: 0 ________ Time ____________________________ PRN El Az C/N UTC 23:33:11 15 Jul 2009 7 27 112 48 GPS 1PPS Synchronized to UTC 8 62 83 52 ANT DLY 60 ns 11 23 82 49 Position ________________________ 15 32 305 51 MODE Hold 17 52 183 51 28 69 356 50 LAT N 37:17:43.811 LON W 121:56:09.784 HGT +28.99 m (GPS) ELEV MASK 16 deg HEALTH MONITOR ......................................................... [ OK ] Self Test: OK Int Pwr: OK Oven Pwr: OK OCXO: OK EFC: OK GPS Rcv: OK scpi > :SYST:COMM:SER1:FDUP 0 ( entered :PTIM:TCOD:CONT? ) scpi > 0 ( entered *IDN? ) scpi > HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3816A,3703A00148,4001-A scpi > --- end of capture --- Ulrich Bangert wrote: >Guys, > >I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: > >1) Displays time AND date in the Nixie clock window > >2) Knows how to read date & time from Jackson Labs receivers, so the the >clock window will function with them too. > >3) Has a new "Manual Command Entry" which, well...., allows manual command >entry. The combobox still needs to be filled with more presets but you can >actually type in whatever you want. Note that the normal communication >thread is paused while this window is open. So close it whenever it is not >used. > >Enjoy >Ulrich Bangert > >Ulrich Bangert >www.ulrich-bangert.de >Ortholzer Weg 1 >27243 Gross Ippener > > > > > From harmon52 at mchsi.com Thu Jul 16 00:32:37 2009 From: harmon52 at mchsi.com (Robert Harmon) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 19:32:37 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? Message-ID: Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be available WITHOUT a power supply? Bob From rexa at sonic.net Thu Jul 16 00:36:47 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:36:47 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX -- Z3816A In-Reply-To: <4A5E73E7.70607@sonic.net> References: <4A5E73E7.70607@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4A5E761F.6090704@sonic.net> Sorry I got the middle link wrong. Corrected below. Rex wrote: > Ulrich, > > First, many thanks for all the delevopment you have done and share > freely. You and John Miles are both to be commended for so much of > this kind of work. > > I have a Z3816A and tried your program. Seems it would need to be > updated to support this GPS receiver. I think it is pretty similar, > in commands, to the other Z38xx boxes. I wonder if you would be > willing to try adding support? > > If you are willing to look at it, I have put some details in this > message. Feel free to contact me -- rexa at xertech.net -- if you need > more specifics or testing from my Z3816A. > > -Rex, KK6MK > > There are some possible serial initialization issues. The help section > from GPSCon, describing this, can be found in the middle of this page: > http://www.realhamradio.com/GPS_Z3816A_Receiver.htm > (something odd happened with one of the pictures on that page.) > > The command structure is very close to chapters 4 and 5 in this document: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp58540a/097-58540-01-iss-1.pdf should be: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp58503a/097-58503-13-iss-1.pdf > > with a similar description of the :SYST:COMM commands in this one: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp58540a/097-58540-01-iss-1.pdf > > I used a serial terminal at 9600 baud to talk to my receiver and > capture the sequence below. I started with the 3816 serial interface > in FDUP (full duplex) mode so that the commands I sent show in the > capture. For normal communication it should be turned off, as I did > near the end. > > --- begin capture --- (viewed best with fixed width font) > :SYST:COMM:SER1:FDUP? > 1 > > scpi > :PTIM:TCOD:CONT? > 0 > > scpi > *IDN? > HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3816A,3703A00148,4001-A > > scpi > :SYST:STAT? > ------------------------------- Receiver Status > ------------------------------- > SYNCHRONIZATION ............................................. [ > Outputs Valid ] > SmartClock Mode ___________________________ Reference Outputs > _______________ > >> Locked to GPS TFOM 3 > FFOM 0 > Recovery 1PPS TI +2.8 ns relative > to GPS > Holdover HOLD THR 1.000 us > Power-up Holdover Uncertainty > ____________ > Predict 5.4 us/initial > 24 hrs > ACQUISITION > ................................................ [ GPS 1PPS Valid ] > Tracking: 6 ____ Not Tracking: 0 ________ Time > ____________________________ > PRN El Az C/N UTC 23:33:11 15 > Jul 2009 > 7 27 112 48 GPS 1PPS Synchronized to UTC > 8 62 83 52 ANT DLY 60 ns > 11 23 82 49 Position > ________________________ > 15 32 305 51 MODE Hold > 17 52 183 51 28 69 356 > 50 LAT N 37:17:43.811 > LON W 121:56:09.784 > HGT +28.99 > m (GPS) > ELEV MASK 16 deg HEALTH MONITOR > ......................................................... [ OK ] > Self Test: OK Int Pwr: OK Oven Pwr: OK OCXO: OK EFC: OK GPS > Rcv: OK > > scpi > :SYST:COMM:SER1:FDUP 0 > > ( entered :PTIM:TCOD:CONT? ) > scpi > 0 > > ( entered *IDN? ) > scpi > HEWLETT-PACKARD,Z3816A,3703A00148,4001-A > scpi > > --- end of capture --- > > > Ulrich Bangert wrote: > >> Guys, >> >> I have just uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following >> improvements: >> >> 1) Displays time AND date in the Nixie clock window >> >> 2) Knows how to read date & time from Jackson Labs receivers, so the the >> clock window will function with them too. >> >> 3) Has a new "Manual Command Entry" which, well...., allows manual >> command >> entry. The combobox still needs to be filled with more presets but >> you can >> actually type in whatever you want. Note that the normal communication >> thread is paused while this window is open. So close it whenever it >> is not >> used. >> >> Enjoy >> Ulrich Bangert >> >> Ulrich Bangert >> www.ulrich-bangert.de >> Ortholzer Weg 1 >> 27243 Gross Ippener >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Jul 16 00:51:11 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 17:51:11 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? References: Message-ID: <2B9F8B89415849A69E4D04F3D49F7B27@pc52> > Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be available WITHOUT a > power supply? > > Bob Hi Bob, In an earlier batch about 39 out of 40 people wanted it with power supply so we decided to keep things simple that the June 2009 batch should all be the same -- all with p.s. But contact me off-line and I'll see what I can do for you. /tvb From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Thu Jul 16 00:14:50 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:14:50 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft References: Message-ID: > I assume we have an above average interest in physics on this > list. > Microsoft is hosting the classic Feynman "Messenger" series of > lectures, for free as part of the Tuva project. > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/07/15/microsoft_feynman_lectures/ > http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva/index.html > Graham / KE9H Excellent post. But I believe the files require SilverLight, which is a MS lockin and won't run on Linux. Here is a link to some Feynman videos on Youtube: The "Character of Physical Law - Richard Feynman", parts 1 to 5 were removed due to copyright complaint, but they are still available on RapidShare, along with audio from "Surely You're Joking, Mr Feynman!" Now that MS is hosting the Feynman lectures, I'd grab them all before Bill claims copyright and removes them. There is a large selection of other Feynman lectures and interviews on Youtube: Most are very interesting. For example, see Feynman 'Fun to Imagine' 6: The Mirror http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msN87y-iEx0 Feynman 'Fun to Imagine' 7: The Train http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7h4OtFDnYE Lots to keep you thinking while waiting for your GPSDO to lock:) Or trying to get Win98 virtualization working on Ubuntu... Mike From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jul 16 01:32:38 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 18:32:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? In-Reply-To: <2B9F8B89415849A69E4D04F3D49F7B27@pc52> References: <2B9F8B89415849A69E4D04F3D49F7B27@pc52> Message-ID: <9b5160d12b4fe507db7f31e30b214065.squirrel@petelancashire.com> I was going to ask the same question when I ordered mine but figured I could use the PS for something else. My goal is to have something like 120V -> 12/24V DC -> Battery -> Converter -> TBolt Now to dig through the old 2RU instrument carcasses to find one that will look 'cool' -pete >> Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be available WITHOUT a >> power supply? >> >> Bob > > Hi Bob, > > In an earlier batch about 39 out of 40 people wanted it with > power supply so we decided to keep things simple that the > June 2009 batch should all be the same -- all with p.s. > > But contact me off-line and I'll see what I can do for you. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Thu Jul 16 00:59:25 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:59:25 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft Message-ID: > The "Character of Physical Law - Richard Feynman", parts 1 to 5 > were removed due to copyright complaint, but they are still > available on RapidShare, along with audio from "Surely You're > Joking, Mr Feynman!" > Rats. That's an encrypted file. IZArc reqires a password. The other links at the top of the page are payware. FilesTube has them in AVI, but split into 7 parts of 100MB ea. You have to download them from RapidSare and merge them separately. RapidShare has a stated limit of one download per day, but they allowed me to download again after waiting only one hour. http://www.filestube.com/806d48c7ae12180d03e9,g/The-Character-of-Physical-Law-1-myTVblog-org-001.html Sorry. I'll try to find a better link when I have some time. Mike From masondg44 at comcast.net Thu Jul 16 02:39:02 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:39:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A References: Message-ID: Thanks for that, Phil. I have located a listing for a Fluke 203A manual, but don't know yet if it's for the Fluke/Montronics Frequency Comparator or something else from Fluke before they acquired Montronics. Waiting for a reply from the vendor. If it's the right manual, I'll buy it rather than bothering with scanning/copying. I have not isolated the trouble.. without so much as a block diagram of the innards, it's a bit difficult to get much figured out without making it a summer-long project. The trouble is that the front panel phase meter and the phase output jump around quite a bit, even when feeding the same source into both inputs. It's like it can't figure out which frequencies to mix for the comparison. In a different vein, I also have a Fluke/Montronics model 203A Distribution Amp.that I'd like to get into. It's set up for 100KHz, 1MHz and 5MHz channels; all non-isolated. I'd like to see the schematics for the preamps and output amps so that perhaps I could modify the 100KHz or 5MHz channel to be a 10MHz channel, and provide isolation as well. Can anyone help with the schematics for the 203A DA? Thanks again, Phil; I'll be in touch if the manual turns out to be the wrong one. Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave M" > To: "Yahoo Manual Exchange" ; "TimeNuts" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:13 PM > Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A > > >>I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is acting >> up. I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics. >> I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics. >> I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought the >> manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck. >> Can someone point me to a source? >> >> Many thanks!! >> Dave M >> masondg44 at comcast dot net > > > Dave, > I have that manual and could perhaps scan "SOME" of the pages you need but > it is large or thick and all the schematics are fold out pages. Most of > the > manual is schematics. Have you isolated the problem to a board or section? > Phil From fortime at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 16 03:04:46 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:04:46 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A References: Message-ID: <6742398545A747F0B50ABF45B14C1272@devoffice> The Fluke 203A is the 1 MHz Distribution Amplifier What's the 103A manual worth ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave M" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A > Thanks for that, Phil. I have located a listing for a Fluke 203A manual, > but don't know yet if it's for the Fluke/Montronics Frequency Comparator > or something else from Fluke before they acquired Montronics. Waiting for > a reply from the vendor. If it's the right manual, I'll buy it rather > than bothering with scanning/copying. > I have not isolated the trouble.. without so much as a block diagram of > the innards, it's a bit difficult to get much figured out without making > it a summer-long project. The trouble is that the front panel phase meter > and the phase output jump around quite a bit, even when feeding the same > source into both inputs. It's like it can't figure out which frequencies > to mix for the comparison. > > In a different vein, I also have a Fluke/Montronics model 203A > Distribution Amp.that I'd like to get into. It's set up for 100KHz, 1MHz > and 5MHz channels; all non-isolated. I'd like to see the schematics for > the preamps and output amps so that perhaps I could modify the 100KHz or > 5MHz channel to be a 10MHz channel, and provide isolation as well. Can > anyone help with the schematics for the 203A DA? > > Thanks again, Phil; I'll be in touch if the manual turns out to be the > wrong one. > > Dave M > masondg44 at comcast dot net > > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Dave M" >> To: "Yahoo Manual Exchange" ; "TimeNuts" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:13 PM >> Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A >> >> >>>I have a Fluke (Montronics) model 103A Frequency Comparator that is >>>acting >>> up. I have the Operating Instructions manual, but it has no schematics. >>> I'm looking for a copy of the complete service manual or the schematics. >>> I've looked at all the usual online sources for the manual, (I bought >>> the >>> manual that I have from an online vendor), but no luck. >>> Can someone point me to a source? >>> >>> Many thanks!! >>> Dave M >>> masondg44 at comcast dot net >> >> >> Dave, >> I have that manual and could perhaps scan "SOME" of the pages you need >> but >> it is large or thick and all the schematics are fold out pages. Most of >> the >> manual is schematics. Have you isolated the problem to a board or >> section? >> Phil > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From fortime at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 16 03:27:31 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:27:31 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals References: <6742398545A747F0B50ABF45B14C1272@devoffice> Message-ID: <10970B94E9FC467F9092BBC8EA7C2CE3@devoffice> Advice ? Dave M's question about that manual reminded me of a bunch of this old "stuff" I have just occupying space. I have an old Fluke 207 VLF Receiver/Comparator (I think 207-5) complete with manual/schematics as well as the Fluke 103A with manual/schematics. They haven't been hooked up or used in years but it's time to "clean house" on a bunch of this old stuff. Could anyone give me some idea of value, if any these days? Perhaps as lot. Many thanks From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Jul 16 03:42:53 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 20:42:53 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time Message-ID: <247E7F70F2D14D2A918DB31EDEABD722@pc52> This might be of interest to a number of time-nuts. Its a live video/audio feed, exactly 40 years delayed... http://wechoosethemoon.org/ "website will be recreating the history Apollo 11 lunar mission. You can view photographs and videos from the archives, follow the entire event minute by minute on three separate twitter feeds, and browse thousands of pages of declassified mission documents." /tvb From rdarlington at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 03:56:54 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 21:56:54 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Having personally worked on the government side of these export regulations, I can assure you they were developed with good intentions. The problem is that Uncle Sam doesn't realize that vintage 1980s technology of the USA is not much of a threat to national security when placed in the hands of the folks in the UK (and most of the rest of the world). I find it amusing that I cannot export precision timing equipment to China, but have no problem buying the exact same regulated equipment from a vendor in China through eBay. I also find it to be pretty sad, but that's a whole other topic! -Bob On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:19 PM, wrote: > You have it all wrong. Having friends in the business, I can tell you what > is going on. The reason the larger dealers have the restriction is, that > some or most of their products come from companies that do business with > the > government. They are forced by contract to restrict sales to US addresses > only and are presently facing ways to even make it more restrictive. > Government agencies audit these sellers and violations as a minimum > results in > loss of business. To reduce that risk and not having to account for what > came > from where, many sellers opt for total "no foreign sales". Intentional > circumvention of that restriction can result in prosecution. Be cageful. > Don't > ask me what I think of the governments actions. > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > > > In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:40:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk writes: > > Blimey Jim, you're a patient man! To be fair most individual sellers > are happy enough to ship abroad if you ask them, it's the bigger dealers > who seem to have rules carved in granite tablets... > > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > John, > > > > I had the same problem from Australia. And when they did ship the > postage > > would be more than the unit! I had to wait and wait and wait. Finally > (after > > years) a good seller who packed well, priced well put one up and I won. > > > > Even if no one takes up your offer - if you do wait one will turn up. > > > > It's even worth asking them if they say not outside the US. Some don't > offer > > because they think no one would pay $100 for postage - when in fact we > > would. > > > > Jim > > > > 2009/7/16 John May > > > >> I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is > offered > >> for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship overseas. > I've > >> been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few nice looking > units > >> because of this. There's one sitting there just now just to tease me! > >> > >> Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > >> (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > >> > >> I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > >> time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could > help > >> reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > >> > >> Regards - JM > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the tix you need for this > summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com > (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 16 05:08:40 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 22:08:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time In-Reply-To: <247E7F70F2D14D2A918DB31EDEABD722@pc52> Message-ID: Two other recent links of interest, as long as we're posting 'em: http://forms.butterfields.com/pdf/17402_Space_lowres.pdf (7 MB): Catalog of personal artifacts from the Mercury to Shuttle eras being sold at auction tomorrow, at least partly for charity. Not particularly timing-related but still well worth browsing. http://books.google.com/books?id=DpW_hGoo-NUC&lpg=PP1&dq=quantum%20beat&pg=P P1 : Great book, technically literate but still accessible to non-physicists. Unusual for Google Books to include this much material from the printed edition; they sold at least one copy (mine) by doing that. Will make you want to homebrew an H-maser. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 8:43 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time > > > This might be of interest to a number of time-nuts. Its a live > video/audio feed, exactly 40 years delayed... > > http://wechoosethemoon.org/ > > "website will be recreating the history Apollo 11 lunar mission. > You can view photographs and videos from the archives, > follow the entire event minute by minute on three separate > twitter feeds, and browse thousands of pages of declassified > mission documents." > > /tvb > From w1ksz at earthlink.net Thu Jul 16 05:19:25 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 01:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? Message-ID: <25485844.1247721565595.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Our friend, fluke.1, has an interesting item on e-Pay. Item Number 300328125248 Does anyone recognize it ? 73, Dick, W1KSZ From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jul 16 06:24:25 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:24:25 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? In-Reply-To: <25485844.1247721565595.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25485844.1247721565595.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0ADCA3D42055416DB438A1D6B5DCA652@APOLLO> I think it is something he's cooked up himself, but I may have misunderstood his listing. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard W. Solomon Sent: 16 July 2009 06:19 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? Our friend, fluke.1, has an interesting item on e-Pay. Item Number 300328125248 Does anyone recognize it ? 73, Dick, W1KSZ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 16 06:45:07 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 06:45:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <276944.845.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I've been on the receiving end of this and it's getting worse. Even data is restricted under ITAR (international Traffic in Arms Regulations). It's frustrating to have to get a licence (that can take months) just to get a official copy of installation manual for a radio even when a copy of the maintenance manual can be freely downloaded from the US governments own website! (and the radio bought on ebay) Some of the bigger surplus dealers have been warned and face going to jail for further violations. It's very hard to tell what and what is not restricted. A helmet is probably not restricted, but if it has a bracket on the front that might be used to mount night vision equipment then it is! And big brother IS watching ebay, I have personal experience of this. Robert G8RPI. --- On Thu, 16/7/09, Robert Darlington wrote: > From: Robert Darlington > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Thursday, 16 July, 2009, 4:56 AM > Having personally worked on the > government side of these export regulations, > I can assure you they were developed with good > intentions.? The problem is > that Uncle Sam doesn't realize that vintage 1980s > technology of the USA is > not much of a threat to national security when placed in > the hands of the > folks in the UK (and most of the rest of the > world).???I find it amusing > that I cannot export precision timing equipment to China, > but have no > problem buying the exact same regulated equipment from a > vendor in China > through eBay.? I also find it to be pretty sad, but > that's a whole other > topic! > > -Bob > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:19 PM, > wrote: > > > You have it all wrong. Having friends in the business, > I can tell you what > > is going on. The reason the larger dealers have the > restriction is, that > > some or? most of their products come from > companies that do business with > > the > > government.? They are forced by contract to > restrict sales to US addresses > > only and are? presently facing ways to even make > it more restrictive. > > Government agencies? audit these sellers and > violations as a minimum > > results in > > loss of? business. To reduce that risk and not > having to account for what > > came > > from? where, many sellers opt for total "no > foreign sales".? Intentional > > circumvention of that restriction can result in > prosecution. Be? cageful. > > Don't > > ask me what I think of the governments actions. > > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:40:05 P.M. Eastern > Daylight Time, > > jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk > writes: > > > > Blimey? Jim, you're a patient man!? To be > fair most individual sellers > > are? happy enough to ship abroad if you ask them, > it's the bigger dealers > > who seem to have rules carved in granite tablets... > > > > Jim? Palfreyman wrote: > > > John, > > > > > > I had the same problem from? Australia. And > when they did ship the > > postage > > > would be more than the? unit! I had to wait > and wait and wait. Finally > > (after > > > years) a good? seller who packed well, > priced well put one up and I won. > > > > > >? Even if no one takes up your offer - if you > do wait one will turn up. > > > > > > It's even worth asking them if they say not > outside the US. Some? don't > > offer > > > because they think no one would pay $100 for > postage -? when in fact we > > > would. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > 2009/7/16? John May > > > > > >> I'm in the UK? and am often frustrated > when a nice piece of kit is > > offered > > >> for? sale on the 'bay by dealers in the > US who won't ship overseas. > > I've > > >> been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost > out on a few nice? looking > > units > > >> because of this.? There's one sitting > there? just now just to tease me! > > >> > > >> Is there anyone on the list? who'd be > willing to act as an intermediary > > >> (take delivery and? resend) to > circumvent this? > > >> > > >> I'd certainly be prepared? to help in a > similar manner any stateside > > >> time-nut frustrated at? EU sellers who > won't ship outside Europe (could > > help > > >> reduce? customs fees as well by marking > as returned from repair???etc.) > > >> > > >> Regards -? JM > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>? > _______________________________________________ > > >> time-nuts mailing? list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > >> To unsubscribe, go to > > >>? https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > >> and follow? the instructions there. > > >> > > >? > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list? -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the? instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing? list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the? instructions there. > > > > > > **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the > tix you need for this > > summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com > > (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From rexa at sonic.net Thu Jul 16 06:51:51 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:51:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? In-Reply-To: <0ADCA3D42055416DB438A1D6B5DCA652@APOLLO> References: <25485844.1247721565595.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0ADCA3D42055416DB438A1D6B5DCA652@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A5ECE07.2060307@sonic.net> David C. Partridge wrote: >I think it is something he's cooked up himself, but I may have misunderstood >his listing. > >Dave > > I doubt that. He says, "It is a board pre-degsin from Qualcomm." I'd take that to mean a Qualcom prototype -- maybe? >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >Behalf Of Richard W. Solomon >Sent: 16 July 2009 06:19 >To: time-nuts at febo.com >Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? > >Our friend, fluke.1, has an interesting item on e-Pay. > >Item Number 300328125248 > >Does anyone recognize it ? > >73, Dick, W1KSZ > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > > > From jim77742 at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 07:38:33 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:38:33 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <276944.845.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <276944.845.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't forget books are not covered under ITAR. That's how the original PGP got distributed legally. Jim 2009/7/16 Robert Atkinson > > Hi, > I've been on the receiving end of this and it's getting worse. Even data is > restricted under ITAR (international Traffic in Arms Regulations). It's > frustrating to have to get a licence (that can take months) just to get a > official copy of installation manual for a radio even when a copy of the > maintenance manual can be freely downloaded from the US governments own > website! (and the radio bought on ebay) Some of the bigger surplus dealers > have been warned and face going to jail for further violations. It's very > hard to tell what and what is not restricted. A helmet is probably not > restricted, but if it has a bracket on the front that might be used to mount > night vision equipment then it is! And big brother IS watching ebay, I have > personal experience of this. > > Robert G8RPI. > > --- On Thu, 16/7/09, Robert Darlington wrote: > > > From: Robert Darlington > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US > > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" < > time-nuts at febo.com> > > Date: Thursday, 16 July, 2009, 4:56 AM > > Having personally worked on the > > government side of these export regulations, > > I can assure you they were developed with good > > intentions. The problem is > > that Uncle Sam doesn't realize that vintage 1980s > > technology of the USA is > > not much of a threat to national security when placed in > > the hands of the > > folks in the UK (and most of the rest of the > > world). I find it amusing > > that I cannot export precision timing equipment to China, > > but have no > > problem buying the exact same regulated equipment from a > > vendor in China > > through eBay. I also find it to be pretty sad, but > > that's a whole other > > topic! > > > > -Bob > > > > On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 6:19 PM, > > wrote: > > > > > You have it all wrong. Having friends in the business, > > I can tell you what > > > is going on. The reason the larger dealers have the > > restriction is, that > > > some or most of their products come from > > companies that do business with > > > the > > > government. They are forced by contract to > > restrict sales to US addresses > > > only and are presently facing ways to even make > > it more restrictive. > > > Government agencies audit these sellers and > > violations as a minimum > > > results in > > > loss of business. To reduce that risk and not > > having to account for what > > > came > > > from where, many sellers opt for total "no > > foreign sales". Intentional > > > circumvention of that restriction can result in > > prosecution. Be cageful. > > > Don't > > > ask me what I think of the governments actions. > > > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 7/15/2009 6:40:05 P.M. Eastern > > Daylight Time, > > > jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk > > writes: > > > > > > Blimey Jim, you're a patient man! To be > > fair most individual sellers > > > are happy enough to ship abroad if you ask them, > > it's the bigger dealers > > > who seem to have rules carved in granite tablets... > > > > > > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > > > John, > > > > > > > > I had the same problem from Australia. And > > when they did ship the > > > postage > > > > would be more than the unit! I had to wait > > and wait and wait. Finally > > > (after > > > > years) a good seller who packed well, > > priced well put one up and I won. > > > > > > > > Even if no one takes up your offer - if you > > do wait one will turn up. > > > > > > > > It's even worth asking them if they say not > > outside the US. Some don't > > > offer > > > > because they think no one would pay $100 for > > postage - when in fact we > > > > would. > > > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > > > 2009/7/16 John May > > > > > > > >> I'm in the UK and am often frustrated > > when a nice piece of kit is > > > offered > > > >> for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the > > US who won't ship overseas. > > > I've > > > >> been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost > > out on a few nice looking > > > units > > > >> because of this. There's one sitting > > there just now just to tease me! > > > >> > > > >> Is there anyone on the list who'd be > > willing to act as an intermediary > > > >> (take delivery and resend) to > > circumvent this? > > > >> > > > >> I'd certainly be prepared to help in a > > similar manner any stateside > > > >> time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who > > won't ship outside Europe (could > > > help > > > >> reduce customs fees as well by marking > > as returned from repair etc.) > > > >> > > > >> Regards - JM > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > >> To unsubscribe, go to > > > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > >> and follow the instructions there. > > > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > **************Snoop, Lil Wayne, Lady GaGa -- land the > > tix you need for this > > > summer's biggest tours. Tourtracker.com > > > (http://www.tourtracker.com/?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000007) > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Thu Jul 16 07:41:30 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:41:30 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft Message-ID: > RapidShare has a stated limit of one download per day, but they > allowed me to download again after waiting only one hour. > http://www.filestube.com/806d48c7ae12180d03e9,g/The-Character-of-Physical-Law-1-myTVblog-org-001.html > Sorry. I'll try to find a better link when I have some time. > Mike The RapidShare wait time is more like 5 or ten minutes, just enough time for a cup of coffee. The 100MB files take about 13 minutes to download on DSL, so you can download the entire series in the background while working on something else. The result is well worth the effort. This is the Messenger Series of lectures at Cornell. It was standing room only. Feynman is an amazing speaker, and the avi files mean you can move them to a different operating system when you decide to move to Ubuntu later:) After downloading, rename the files to avi.001, avi.002, etc., and save the following in a batch file in the same folder as the avi files: @echo off cls echo. echo Concatenating files. This takes a minute or so... echo. copy /b avi.001+avi.002+avi.003+avi.004+avi.005+avi.006+avi.007 physlaw.avi echo. echo Done. The /b option means to copy in binary format. An end-of-file mark is not placed at the end of the copied file. This creates a 664MB avi file. If you don't have an AVI viewer, VLC is very effective for large files like this: http://www.videolan.org/ The entire file takes 56 minutes to view. VLC allows you to start anywhere in the file by moving the cursor, so you can keep track of where you stopped and return to that point later. This allows you to watch the entire performance without interruption, or return to any part that interests you. When you have verified the file is good, remember to erase the originals to save disk space. The Feynman lectures are very interesting, and give you a chance to hold a part of history. They are well worth the effort to download and keep. Mike From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 16 09:06:32 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 02:06:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble Thunderboltsetup optimizationand addinga10811 OCXO In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > How do you realize theset influences? > What are your results for the TB with the 10811 on EFC, PPS and > Osc.? > What setting are you applying? Subjectively, just watching 30-hour plots on Heather, I see about the same performance on PPS and Osc as I do on the much-newer TAPR unit. The EFC showed a steady increase on a 1-volt scale (~100x worse than the TAPR unit), probably because of the storage time. It hadn't flattened out entirely after 30 hours. I had to reclaim the bench space this evening so I can't look at it any closer right now. I did see occasional jumps with this 10811, nothing extremely bad, but a bit worse than the worst OSC spikes I tend to see on the TAPR unit. My conclusion from earlier still seems valid, in that this particular 10811 upgrade brings the older Thunderbolt up to approximately the same level of performance being seen with the TAPR units. -- john, KE5FX From asmagal at fc.up.pt Thu Jul 16 10:18:10 2009 From: asmagal at fc.up.pt (asmagal at fc.up.pt) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:18:10 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090716121810.7jw931s28ckw8wco@webmail.fc.up.pt> Hello! It seems to me that an ordinary PC power supply outputs +12, -12 and +5 Volt. Has someone in the list used one of those to feed the Thunderbolt? Thanks for reading, Antonio/CT1TE Quoting Robert Harmon : > Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be available WITHOUT a > power supply? > > > > Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ From david.kirkby at onetel.net Thu Jul 16 11:30:44 2009 From: david.kirkby at onetel.net (Dr. David Kirkby) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 12:30:44 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A5E4B2B.7020906@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A5F0F64.9000807@onetel.net> John May wrote: > I'm in the UK and am often frustrated when a nice piece of kit is > offered for sale on the 'bay by dealers in the US who won't ship > overseas. I've been looking for an HP 5370B and have lost out on a few > nice looking units because of this. There's one sitting there just now > just to tease me! > > Is there anyone on the list who'd be willing to act as an intermediary > (take delivery and resend) to circumvent this? > > I'd certainly be prepared to help in a similar manner any stateside > time-nut frustrated at EU sellers who won't ship outside Europe (could > help reduce customs fees as well by marking as returned from repair etc.) > > Regards - JM You will find many of them will if you ask. One I recall saying "Why don't you just bid on it?" I don't know if the default it to only ship to the USA, but I have bought plenty of kit from people who say they will only ship to the USA. (I'm in the UK too). If you don't mind taking the risk, you are more likely to get them to do it if you agree to wire the money, rather than use Paypal. Sellers know Paypal is a bit of a risk with the chargbacks, and they are probably more concerned when the buyer is in another country. Dave From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Thu Jul 16 11:42:13 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? In-Reply-To: <20090716121810.7jw931s28ckw8wco@webmail.fc.up.pt> References: <20090716121810.7jw931s28ckw8wco@webmail.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <382249.92561.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Ok, but not very good, see : http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm stanley ? ----- Original Message ---- From: "asmagal at fc.up.pt" To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:18:10 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? Hello! It seems to me that an ordinary PC power supply outputs +12, -12 and +5 Volt. Has someone in the list used one of those to feed the Thunderbolt? Thanks for reading, Antonio/CT1TE Quoting Robert Harmon : > Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be available WITHOUT a > power supply? > > > > Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 16 12:19:31 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 13:19:31 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power supply? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 04:42:13 -0700 (PDT) > From: Stanley Reynolds > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power > suppy? > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Message-ID: <382249.92561.qm at web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > > Ok, but not very good, see : > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm > > stanley > > > ? > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: "asmagal at fc.up.pt" > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 5:18:10 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a > power suppy? > > Hello! > > It seems to me that an ordinary PC power supply outputs +12, > -12 and +5 Volt. > Has someone in the list used one of those to feed the Thunderbolt? > Thanks for reading, > Antonio/CT1TE > > Quoting Robert Harmon : > > > Just wondering if the new TBolts from TAPR might be > available WITHOUT a > > power supply? Applying the KISS principle... Yes PC PSU's are noisy (most SMPS's are) especialy when "under loaded" so the switching regulators are not working in the mode they were designed for, resulting in their own internal filters not working optimally for the EMI spectrum so produced. They can be relatively quiet when correctly loaded, but to do that, you waste (a lot of) energy, by needing loading up the "primary" output, the one with the main feedback path to the controlling regulator. (Usually the +5V, but not always with some of the modern stuff.) Why not.... (Assuming a 24/7 powered PC is used...) Fit a connector to the back panel of your PC (that will probably be used to monitor it in any case) and then use an EMI filter, to get rid of most of the noise Series L, Shunt C etc. You should easily be able to better the "MeanWell" supplies noise performance, and save on hardware costs. I do this to run various external "attachments" from (Filtered) +5V and +12V feeds from one of my PC's. If you look around, you can even get panel mount versions of the 4 wire DC power connector most PC's used for hard disks and CD ROMs. Making life even easier. Some will even fit in redundant connector holes you may already have. If you want a fairly quiet cheap +5V, start with the PC's 12V, and use a good linear regulator, but remember to pay attention to it's local decoupling, or you may remove the SMPS hash, but replace it with a 50MHz spur on the 5V, as many 3 terminal fixed regulators will freely oscillate if you don't get their local decoupling correct. See the data sheets. Oh, remember to fuse any supply you "borrow" from a PC. Most PC PSU's can pack quite a punch!... The only down side... Eggs and baskets. If the PC fails, your GPSDO stops! But if it's just a time server with a GPS receiver for the 1PPS signal as I use, no real long term issues. Of course, for the ultimate in quiet supplies, it takes a lot to beat the "old school" transformer rectifier and linear regulator approach. Check out any collection of old "brick-in-cable" PSU's you may have kept, after sending some early gadget to the landfill site. Many devices used +-12 and +5V, as well as other useful voltages... Regards. Dave G0WBX. From w9ac at arrl.net Thu Jul 16 12:27:28 2009 From: w9ac at arrl.net (Paul Christensen) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:27:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? References: <20090716121810.7jw931s28ckw8wco@webmail.fc.up.pt> <382249.92561.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <156029A0D7CC48B7926BE79D35A8015B@DBTOA000> > "Ok, but not very good, see : > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm stanley" Between the information contained in that link and my own observations of RFI when using a switch-mode power supplies (SMPS), I've begun using only linear power supplies for use with my GPS-DO devices. The internal DC/DC converters in my HP 58540A and Brandywine GPS-4 were creating HF radio interference. Rather than fight and try to abate the RFI, the DC converters were discarded and now both units are powered directly from a PowerOne dual linear supply (+15VDC, +5VDC). Switching interference is now completely gone. If the Thunderbolts require a triple supply, PowerOne and International Power both make industrial-grade, triple-output linear supplies for approximately USD $100. Anyone using their GPS-DO in the presence of an HF receiver may want to consider this as a powering option. Paul, W9AC From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 16 14:25:59 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/16/09 12:38 AM, "Jim Palfreyman" wrote: > Don't forget books are not covered under ITAR. > > That's how the original PGP got distributed legally. > > Jim > > 2009/7/16 Robert Atkinson > Not without some hassles for Phil Zimmerman (although it was ostensibly the distribution of PGP on bbses that triggered the 3 year investigation) ITAR and EAR are complex and, as the export controls folks at work tell us, do not make sense to engineers and scientists, so do not expect to figure it out from logic or reading the rules. The decisions are ALL subjective and in the minds of State or Commerce. You submit your application, some time later it is denied or accepted. If you don't apply for an export license, there's no "good faith" exception for a violation. Depending on what you do for a living or your where you live, having the FBI show up outside your apartment one morning, just to have a chat, may be good or bad. Or having them come by your employer on your first day of work and ask (nicely) "can we have a few minutes with your new employee, alone, to discuss some sensitive matters." In my case, it wasn't a big deal, it was a small company and they were actually impressed. And I already had a rumor reputation in the apartments because of antennas off the balcony and such, so it just added to the mystique of "that guy with the racks of electronic equipment and wires" But, these are different days. From holrum at hotmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:15:44 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:15:44 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolts available without a power suppy? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't use the PC power supply... get a cheap, old-ish laptop that supports optical drives with a 12V motor. Wire the Tbolt into the optical drive/rs-232 power supplies (remove the optical drive, filter power signals to taste). Voila... battery backed up Tbolt with permanent monitor screen. If your lap top is old and clunky enough, you may even be able to shoehorn the Tbolt into the laptop case. You may be able to leave the optical drive in the laptop, but don't try to spin it up and run the Tbolt at the same time... ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From had at to-way.com Thu Jul 16 15:20:48 2009 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 08:20:48 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time In-Reply-To: References: <247E7F70F2D14D2A918DB31EDEABD722@pc52> Message-ID: <20090716152050.ECF7DCBCD37@mail-in02.adhost.com> John, Thanks for the heads up about this book. I have it on order. Had, K7MLR At 10:08 PM 7/15/2009, you wrote: >http://books.google.com/books?id=DpW_hGoo-NUC&lpg=PP1&dq=quantum%20beat&pg=P >P1 : Great book, technically literate but still accessible to >non-physicists. Unusual for Google Books to include this much material from >the printed edition; they sold at least one copy (mine) by doing that. Will >make you want to homebrew an H-maser. > >-- john, KE5FX From W4wj at aol.com Thu Jul 16 15:20:46 2009 From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 11:20:46 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time Message-ID: Audio can also be found here... _http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/apollo11_radio/index.html_ (http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/apollo11_radio/index.html) In a message dated 7/15/2009 10:43:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, tvb at LeapSecond.com writes: This might be of interest to a number of time-nuts. Its a live video/audio feed, exactly 40 years delayed... http://wechoosethemoon.org/ "website will be recreating the history Apollo 11 lunar mission. You can view photographs and videos from the archives, follow the entire event minute by minute on three separate twitter feeds, and browse thousands of pages of declassified mission documents." /tvb _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************Can love help you live longer? Find out now. (http://personals.aol.com/articles/2009/02/18/longer-lives-through-relationships/?ncid=emlweu slove00000001) From w1ksz at earthlink.net Thu Jul 16 16:17:50 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:17:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? Message-ID: <31519872.1247761071025.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I don't think it's something he cooked up, I asked for a schematic and as best I could understand him, he doesn't have one. Maybe someone from Qualcomm will recognize it. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: Rex >Sent: Jul 15, 2009 11:51 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Cc: "'Richard W. Solomon'" >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? > >David C. Partridge wrote: > >>I think it is something he's cooked up himself, but I may have misunderstood >>his listing. >> >>Dave >> >> > >I doubt that. He says, "It is a board pre-degsin from Qualcomm." I'd >take that to mean a Qualcom prototype -- maybe? > >>-----Original Message----- >>From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >>Behalf Of Richard W. Solomon >>Sent: 16 July 2009 06:19 >>To: time-nuts at febo.com >>Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM Multiplexed Thing ?? >> >>Our friend, fluke.1, has an interesting item on e-Pay. >> >>Item Number 300328125248 >> >>Does anyone recognize it ? >> >>73, Dick, W1KSZ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> >> > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Jul 16 16:26:32 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 09:26:32 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time References: <247E7F70F2D14D2A918DB31EDEABD722@pc52> <20090716152050.ECF7DCBCD37@mail-in02.adhost.com> Message-ID: <67F35665131F4F378F757CA31D8CB23C@pc52> > John, > > Thanks for the heads up about this book. I have it on order. > > Had, K7MLR More T&F books a this old page: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/books/ /tvb From holrum at hotmail.com Thu Jul 16 17:39:10 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 17:39:10 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: More adventures in the subtle wonders of Thunderbolt firmware... My idea to get a Thunderbolt to accept a high precision fixed position by putting it into 3D fix mode, waiting for it to generate a fix sufficiently close to the desired location, and then putting it into position hold mode... is a bust. Position hold mode reverts to the last saved/surveyed position. Ok, so let's try doing single fix surveys until one comes close to the desired position... no joy. The Tbolt documentation says that you can do surveys from 1 to 2**32-1 fixes... nope. Firmware rev 2.22 only seems to do 1400 point surveys. Rev 3.0 only does 2000 point surveys. The units seem to ignore the fix count parameter in the "set survey parameters" command. Does anybody know how to set the self-survey fix count value? ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jul 16 18:04:30 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 19:04:30 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A93095419344F6693538DC38DF49F45@APOLLO> Mark, Did you save the eprom segment after setting after changing the number of survey points. Mine (rev 3.0) knows it was told 10000 survey points. PS Still waiting for your reply about the SG504 levelling head kits. Cheers Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims Sent: 16 July 2009 18:39 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Accurate Thunderbolt position More adventures in the subtle wonders of Thunderbolt firmware... My idea to get a Thunderbolt to accept a high precision fixed position by putting it into 3D fix mode, waiting for it to generate a fix sufficiently close to the desired location, and then putting it into position hold mode... is a bust. Position hold mode reverts to the last saved/surveyed position. Ok, so let's try doing single fix surveys until one comes close to the desired position... no joy. The Tbolt documentation says that you can do surveys from 1 to 2**32-1 fixes... nope. Firmware rev 2.22 only seems to do 1400 point surveys. Rev 3.0 only does 2000 point surveys. The units seem to ignore the fix count parameter in the "set survey parameters" command. Does anybody know how to set the self-survey fix count value? ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows LiveT: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From masondg44 at comcast.net Thu Jul 16 18:11:24 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:11:24 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A References: Message-ID: <18C08F7C01FE4BF195262558C0F1C433@D77M7BF1> Yes, the 103A is the Frequency Comparator; the 203A is the Distribution Amp. Sorry for the mistake. The 103A manual price as listed, is $25 plus shipping. I received confirmation this morning that is indeed the Montronics Frequency Comparator manual with schematics, so I ordered it immediately (http://www.manualsplus.com). Don't know how many they have in stock. Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net > From: "phil" > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > The Fluke 203A is the 1 MHz Distribution Amplifier > What's the 103A manual worth ? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dave M" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 10:39 PM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need sevice manual or schematics for Fluke 103A > > >> Thanks for that, Phil. I have located a listing for a Fluke 203A >> manual, >> but don't know yet if it's for the Fluke/Montronics Frequency Comparator >> or something else from Fluke before they acquired Montronics. Waiting >> for >> a reply from the vendor. If it's the right manual, I'll buy it rather >> than bothering with scanning/copying. >> I have not isolated the trouble.. without so much as a block diagram of >> the innards, it's a bit difficult to get much figured out without making >> it a summer-long project. The trouble is that the front panel phase >> meter >> and the phase output jump around quite a bit, even when feeding the same >> source into both inputs. It's like it can't figure out which frequencies >> to mix for the comparison. >> >> In a different vein, I also have a Fluke/Montronics model 203A >> Distribution Amp.that I'd like to get into. It's set up for 100KHz, 1MHz >> and 5MHz channels; all non-isolated. I'd like to see the schematics for >> the preamps and output amps so that perhaps I could modify the 100KHz or >> 5MHz channel to be a 10MHz channel, and provide isolation as well. Can >> anyone help with the schematics for the 203A DA? >> >> Thanks again, Phil; I'll be in touch if the manual turns out to be the >> wrong one. >> >> Dave M >> masondg44 at comcast dot net >> From jgd at neon-john.com Thu Jul 16 19:58:51 2009 From: jgd at neon-john.com (NeonJohn) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:58:51 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Apollo, space and time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5F867B.4040700@neon-john.com> W4wj at aol.com wrote: > Audio can also be found here... > > _http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/apollo11_radio/index.html_ > (http://www.nasa.gov/externalflash/apollo11_radio/index.html) > Anyone know if this audio is downloadable as files? I'm on Hughsnet and unfortunately can't stream this stuff for long until I get hit with a bandwidth penalty. I have unlimited bandwidth at night. BTW, another major event happened today. The Trinity shot that started the nuclear age happened today in 1945. Of particular interest to this group is the timing and data logging techniques used. John -- John DeArmond Tellico Plains, Occupied TN http://www.neon-john.com <-- email from here http://www.johndearmond.com <-- Best damned Blog on the net PGP key: wwwkeys.pgp.net: BCB68D77 From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Thu Jul 16 20:40:05 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:40:05 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59 MST." Message-ID: <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" writ es: >ITAR and EAR are complex and[...] Actually, the Vasenaar Convention made all that a lot simpler. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 16 21:01:57 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:01:57 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> References: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59 MST." <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:40 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" writ es: >ITAR and EAR are complex and[...] Actually, the Vasenaar Convention made all that a lot simpler. --- Not that much simpler.. You still have the Basic List and Munitions list, and the terms on the list are vague enough that there's a lot of room for interpretation. Start fooling with software defined radios that do things like automatically identify the type of modulation, and you're right into dual-use territory. From brooke at pacific.net Thu Jul 16 21:27:28 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 14:27:28 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A5F9B40.3000604@pacific.net> Hi: I've been watching these in IE6 at the http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva web page. When I added it to my Favorites an option comes up "Make available offline" with options for related web pages. I didn't know IE6 had that feature. But did not use it since the .avi versions are available. But this is a handy thing to know about. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Mike Monett wrote: > > The "Character of Physical Law - Richard Feynman", parts 1 to 5 > > were removed due to copyright complaint, but they are still > > available on RapidShare, along with audio from "Surely You're > > Joking, Mr Feynman!" > > > > > > Rats. That's an encrypted file. IZArc reqires a password. The other > links at the top of the page are payware. > > FilesTube has them in AVI, but split into 7 parts of 100MB ea. You > have to download them from RapidSare and merge them separately. > > RapidShare has a stated limit of one download per day, but they > allowed me to download again after waiting only one hour. > > > http://www.filestube.com/806d48c7ae12180d03e9,g/The-Character-of-Physical-Law-1-myTVblog-org-001.html > > Sorry. I'll try to find a better link when I have some time. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jul 16 22:20:02 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 15:20:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: References: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59 MST." <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> When I was at Tek in the 80's I received some assembles from a company in China to check out for component issues. I was denied their return due to some parts being on the list .. > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp > Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:40 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US > > In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" > writ > es: > >>ITAR and EAR are complex and[...] > > Actually, the Vasenaar Convention made all that a lot simpler. > > > --- > Not that much simpler.. > You still have the Basic List and Munitions list, and the terms on the > list are vague enough that there's a lot of room for interpretation. Start > fooling with software defined radios that do things like automatically > identify the type of modulation, and you're right into dual-use territory. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Fri Jul 17 03:47:43 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 04:47:43 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> References: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59 MST." <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> But it makes you glad you're an engineer rather than a pointy haired bureaucrat! That incident reads like a Dilbert comic strip. Pete Lancashire wrote: > When I was at Tek in the 80's I received some assembles from a > company in China to check out for component issues. I was denied > their return due to some parts being on the list .. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:40 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US >> >> In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" >> writ >> es: >> >>> ITAR and EAR are complex and[...] >> Actually, the Vasenaar Convention made all that a lot simpler. >> >> >> --- >> Not that much simpler.. >> You still have the Basic List and Munitions list, and the terms on the >> list are vague enough that there's a lot of room for interpretation. Start >> fooling with software defined radios that do things like automatically >> identify the type of modulation, and you're right into dual-use territory. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 17 04:54:59 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:54:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: The issue of returning equipment for repair is a significant concern. Unless you have the appropriate licenses both ways.. Company A in Germany, say, ships a widget to company B in the US, all nicely approved by whoever in Germany (maybe they didn't even need a license). Widget breaks and Company B wants to return it to Company A for warranty repair. Oops, you need an export license to send widgets. Worse yet, because of "deemed export" rules with respect to technical data, you probably can't even tell Company A what went wrong with your widget without a license. And it might take two separate licenses: one to transfer the widget back; and a different one to transfer the information. A similar situation arises where you are getting technical support from a foreign vendor. You have to be careful about how you ask the questions. And sending them a copy of your schematic or test data might be "streng verboten". This whole thing is so twisted and convoluted, you can see why some sellers just run in fear. If they've had the fear of the law put into them at some point, they just figure: the safest way is to do nothing. On 7/16/09 8:47 PM, "John May" wrote: > But it makes you glad you're an engineer rather than a pointy haired > bureaucrat! > > That incident reads like a Dilbert comic strip. > > Pete Lancashire wrote: >> When I was at Tek in the 80's I received some assembles from a >> company in China to check out for component issues. I was denied >> From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 17 05:07:03 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 02:07:03 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft References: <4A5F9B40.3000604@pacific.net> Message-ID: time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: > >Hi: > >I've been watching these in IE6 at the >http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva >web page. When I added it to my Favorites an option comes up "Make available >offline" with options for related web pages. I didn't know IE6 had that >feature. But did not use it since the .avi versions are available. But this >is a handy thing to know about. > >Have Fun, > >Brooke Clarke >http://www.prc68.com Brooke, how do you get IE6 to show anything? I get a blank page with a few Microsft links in the upper left corner. I tried the latest release of Opera 9.64 and it shows the same thing. Do you have to install SilverLight? If so, is this format also used to view offline? Carnegie Mellon has a description of the 7 lectures in the series at http://www.ece.cmu.edu/news/story/2005/03/the_feynman_lecture/ I've been trying to find Lecture 3: The Great Conservation Principles. This seems fundamental to everything we are doing - flicker and the other noise sources, drift, random walk, etc. But I have not found any source on the web so far. I did find more lectures in YouTube that were not referenced elsewhere. They are part of the Messenger series, but the quality is poor. The lectures are broken into separate files, and some have long breaks with no video or sound. I really would like to get the whole set. Feynman often refers to previous lectures in the series, but without seeing them it's hard to get a complete picture. Too bad there is no converter for Silverlight. Which, btw, I found an excellent free converter at http://www.nchsoftware.com/prism/ It works great! They have about 60 other free programs ranging from accounting and inventory software to camera monitoring software that looks for scene changes. Everything I've tried so far works very well. My Win98 machine went unstable and I had to reboot a couple of times, but I'm not sure that wasn't caused by a multimedia program that crashed every time I tried to move the file cursor. If you can, let me know if MS uses Silverlight to save the files. I suspect that will be the case. If so, it might be worth creating a separate WinXP installation in VirtualBox just to watch the files. A bare XP installation is only a couple of GB. The entire Feynman series might be 4GB or so. That's not much on a 500GB disk. And the quality would have to be better than YouTube:) Mike From brooke at pacific.net Fri Jul 17 06:56:10 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2009 23:56:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4A5F9B40.3000604@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A60208A.10709@pacific.net> Hi Mike: Yes, I installed Silverlight. I haven't tried the saving for off line, but plan to because the .avi files (after renaming) do not play. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Mike Monett wrote: > time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I've been watching these in IE6 at the >> http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva >> web page. When I added it to my Favorites an option comes up "Make available >> offline" with options for related web pages. I didn't know IE6 had that >> feature. But did not use it since the .avi versions are available. But this >> is a handy thing to know about. >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com > > Brooke, how do you get IE6 to show anything? I get a blank page with a few > Microsft links in the upper left corner. I tried the latest release of > Opera 9.64 and it shows the same thing. Do you have to install SilverLight? > If so, is this format also used to view offline? > > Carnegie Mellon has a description of the 7 lectures in the series at > > http://www.ece.cmu.edu/news/story/2005/03/the_feynman_lecture/ > > I've been trying to find Lecture 3: The Great Conservation Principles. This > seems fundamental to everything we are doing - flicker and the other noise > sources, drift, random walk, etc. But I have not found any source on the > web so far. I did find more lectures in YouTube that were not referenced > elsewhere. They are part of the Messenger series, but the quality is poor. > The lectures are broken into separate files, and some have long breaks with > no video or sound. > > I really would like to get the whole set. Feynman often refers to previous > lectures in the series, but without seeing them it's hard to get a complete > picture. Too bad there is no converter for Silverlight. Which, btw, I found > an excellent free converter at > > http://www.nchsoftware.com/prism/ > > It works great! They have about 60 other free programs ranging from > accounting and inventory software to camera monitoring software that looks > for scene changes. > > Everything I've tried so far works very well. My Win98 machine went > unstable and I had to reboot a couple of times, but I'm not sure that > wasn't caused by a multimedia program that crashed every time I tried to > move the file cursor. > > If you can, let me know if MS uses Silverlight to save the files. I suspect > that will be the case. If so, it might be worth creating a separate WinXP > installation in VirtualBox just to watch the files. A bare XP installation > is only a couple of GB. The entire Feynman series might be 4GB or so. > That's not much on a 500GB disk. And the quality would have to be better > than YouTube:) > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From d.seiter at comcast.net Fri Jul 17 07:11:04 2009 From: d.seiter at comcast.net (d.seiter at comcast.net) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:11:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <633617612.2526501247814664491.JavaMail.root@sz0108a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> More inept governmental garbage. I rarely buy surplus anymore, but when I do, it all gets broken down into parts/assemblies for spares and all markings are removed and it goes into scrap mode. Occasionally, I have to build up something from parts on hand, which can be fun... Come to think of it; I haven't received any emails from gov auction sites in a while, have some gone out of business? ----- Original Message ----- From: "John May" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 9:47:43 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US But it makes you glad you're an engineer rather than a pointy haired bureaucrat! That incident reads like a Dilbert comic strip. Pete Lancashire wrote: > When I was at Tek in the 80's I received some assembles from a > company in China to check out for component issues. I was denied > their return due to some parts being on the list .. > > > > > > -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp >> Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:40 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US >> >> In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" >> writ >> es: >> >>> ITAR and EAR are complex and[...] >> Actually, the Vasenaar Convention made all that a lot simpler. >> >> >> --- >> Not that much simpler.. >> You still have the Basic List and Munitions list, and the terms on the >> list are vague enough that there's a lot of room for interpretation. Start >> fooling with software defined radios that do things like automatically >> identify the type of modulation, and you're right into dual-use territory. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From fortime at bellsouth.net Fri Jul 17 07:18:00 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 03:18:00 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US References: Your message of "Thu, 16 Jul 2009 07:25:59MST." <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: A few other reasons that come into play for not shipping outside of USA, (1) With respect to items a seller may purchase from Federal auctions or a company such as Honeywell that is under federal contract, the "general" terms of the sale/auction is that the items will not be exported. Certainly, some items could/would fall into the "dual-use" category. I doubt a kitchen table would be "dual-use" unless you assemble bombs on it, yet the terms of some auctions are explicit, no exporting. (2) What stops the most "small" sellers from shipping out of the US is the financial risk. In reading some of the forums on eBay, sellers are getting scammed in numerous ways. You have PayPal that seems to side with the purchaser regardless of circumstances. If an item is returned to seller for any reason the seller will at least loose the shipping cost, possibly fees, and with extreme luck get the item back rather than a box of rocks. Should a buyer tell PayPal an item is counterfeit, PayPal will often tell the buyer to destroy the unit/item and refund buyer everything. A charge back is issued to the seller and the seller is out all cost, fees, shipping, and DOES NOT get the item back. If you notice, some of the sellers that do export require an irrevocable form of payment (non PayPal) and stipulate no warranty or returns when shipped out of the USA. (3) Excessive shipping cost. Shipping cost on a heavy item to Europe can be in the hundreds of dollars. PayPal now requires a signature on anything 250.00 US or more and I understand that overseas signature can only be had with air shipping. (4) Not only the financial risk and excessive shipping cost, the additional paperwork, extra PayPal fees to convert the foreign currency to dollars make it not worth the effort. A seller can sell/ship with relative safety state to state and have some assurance of legal protections, virtually no protections selling/shipping out of the US. A thought From sar10538 at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 08:14:04 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 20:14:04 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: References: <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907170114u2a25716cwe4ea895ca5fd55df@mail.gmail.com> Well I guess it's a good job that other countries don't hide behind a whole lot of excuses and BS when someone in the US wants to buy things from them or you guys would feel pretty hard done by too. Sounds like it's mostly just a case of it's too hard I can't be bothered to me. Seems that anything and everything comes under the heading of sales of arms to a lot of sellers on ePay. Most can't even be bothered to fill in a customs form to send the item or even work out how to. Let's face it, it's so much easier to send the item to the lower 48 States. Makes me wonder how I can buy so called sensitive stuff from China that most probably came from the US but supposedly I can't by it direct from the US. Seems like dual standards here. Is someone in Government getting a back-hander from the China seller so that they can get the gear out of the US. Now considering how protective China is about itself, you would think that they would have a whole lot of red-tape about sending sensitive items out of their country but that does not seem to be the case. Stop hiding behind a whole lot of excuses and get over it. If the system over there is so busted fix it, your supposed to be a democracy, well vote to get it fixed and stop keeping on regurgitating the same crap system that seems to get more and more anally retentive. We are all on this planet together. We all need to live together. Let's try and all work together and not start some exclusive club that only some can join. Rant off. I love you guys really! 73, Steve 2009/7/17 phil : > A few other reasons that come into play for not shipping outside of USA, > > (1) With respect to items a seller may purchase from Federal auctions or a > company such as Honeywell that is under federal contract, the "general" > terms of the sale/auction is that the items will not be exported. Certainly, > some items could/would fall into the "dual-use" category. I doubt a kitchen > table would be "dual-use" unless you assemble bombs on it, yet the terms of > some auctions are explicit, no exporting. > > (2) What stops the most "small" sellers from shipping out of the US is the > financial risk. > In reading some of the forums on eBay, sellers are getting scammed in > numerous ways. You have PayPal that seems to side with the purchaser > regardless of circumstances. If an item is returned to seller for any reason > the seller will at least loose the shipping cost, possibly fees, and with > extreme luck get the item back rather than a box of rocks. > > Should a buyer tell PayPal an item is counterfeit, PayPal will often tell > the buyer to destroy the unit/item and refund buyer everything. A charge > back is issued to the seller and the seller is out all cost, fees, shipping, > and DOES NOT get the item back. > > If you notice, some of the sellers that do export require an irrevocable > form of payment (non PayPal) and stipulate no warranty or returns when > shipped out of the USA. > > (3) Excessive shipping cost. Shipping cost on a heavy item to Europe can be > in the hundreds of dollars. PayPal now requires a signature on anything > 250.00 US or more and I understand that overseas signature can only be had > with air shipping. > > (4) Not only the financial risk and excessive shipping cost, the additional > paperwork, extra PayPal fees to convert the foreign currency to dollars make > it not worth the effort. > > A seller can sell/ship with relative safety state to state and have some > assurance of legal protections, virtually no protections selling/shipping > out of the US. > > A thought > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From optomatic at rogers.com Fri Jul 17 11:59:51 2009 From: optomatic at rogers.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 07:59:51 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80907170114u2a25716cwe4ea895ca5fd55df@mail.gmail.com> References: <25948.1247776805@critter.freebsd.dk> <150dff45ac3d66acb3648a288060cedc.squirrel@petelancashire.com> <4A5FF45F.3060605@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> <1231b6a80907170114u2a25716cwe4ea895ca5fd55df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6067B7.1050301@rogers.com> Here in Canada I hear a lot of complaints about the US, I heard even more with the previous administration. When I was younger I would sometimes hop on the "bandwagon". Now I am older and slightly less stupid I can see America for what it is, a very diverse country often at odds with itself. There are millions of Americans trying to make their country a kinder place and that do not have hostile views towards the rest of us. To all non-Americans, please refrain from lumping 306 million people together, let's keep this mailing list related to it's intended topic. -Patrick Steve Rooke wrote: > Well I guess it's a good job that other countries don't hide behind a > whole lot of excuses and BS when someone in the US wants to buy things > from them or you guys would feel pretty hard done by too. Sounds like > it's mostly just a case of it's too hard I can't be bothered to me. > Seems that anything and everything comes under the heading of sales of > arms to a lot of sellers on ePay. Most can't even be bothered to fill > in a customs form to send the item or even work out how to. Let's face > it, it's so much easier to send the item to the lower 48 States. Makes > me wonder how I can buy so called sensitive stuff from China that most > probably came from the US but supposedly I can't by it direct from the > US. Seems like dual standards here. Is someone in Government getting a > back-hander from the China seller so that they can get the gear out of > the US. Now considering how protective China is about itself, you > would think that they would have a whole lot of red-tape about sending > sensitive items out of their country but that does not seem to be the > case. Stop hiding behind a whole lot of excuses and get over it. If > the system over there is so busted fix it, your supposed to be a > democracy, well vote to get it fixed and stop keeping on regurgitating > the same crap system that seems to get more and more anally retentive. > We are all on this planet together. We all need to live together. > Let's try and all work together and not start some exclusive club that > only some can join. > > Rant off. > > I love you guys really! > > From msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG Fri Jul 17 15:32:14 2009 From: msokolov at ivan.Harhan.ORG (Michael Sokolov) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:32:14 GMT Subject: [time-nuts] US ebay sellers who won't ship outside the US Message-ID: <0907171532.AA03272@ivan.Harhan.ORG> Regardless of the reason as to why eBay sellers won't ship outside USA no matter how much you beg or how much you pay them, the solution is obvious: have an intermediate "in the belly of the beast" do the proxy buying and reshipping. I would be very glad to act as that intermediate for virtually any kind of items, but I would like some commission. Replies off-list please. MS From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Fri Jul 17 20:32:42 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:32:42 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft References: <4A60208A.10709@pacific.net> Message-ID: > Hi Mike: > Yes, I installed Silverlight. I haven't tried the saving for off > line, but plan to because the .avi files (after renaming) do not > play. >Have Fun, >Brooke Clarke >http://www.prc68.com That's odd. Recall there is about a minute of silence at the beginning of the tape. This makes you think it is blank. Windows Media Player 9 grabs the file when you click on it in Explorer, but it only gives the sound and no image on my Win98 machine. I have to load the avi file manually into VLC. Do you have VideoLan? It's at http://www.videolan.org/ VLC is free, cross-platform, and shows the video much smoother than other multimedia players I have tried (MPlayer, FLVPlayer, etc.) If you don't have it already, give it a try. But that still doesn't help with the rest of the Messenger lectures. I think there's no choice but to install Silverlight. I don't want it on my main machine since MS is such a huge target for malware, so I'll put it on a clone in VBox or VMware later when I have some time. Mike From rdarlington at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 21:44:38 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 15:44:38 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: <4A60208A.10709@pacific.net> Message-ID: Are you sure it uses Silverlight? I had no problem viewing the videos with FireFox (under XP Pro). Then again, maybe they have a Silverlight plugin for FireFox that I didn't realize I was running. -Bob On Fri, Jul 17, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Mike Monett wrote: > > Hi Mike: > > > Yes, I installed Silverlight. I haven't tried the saving for off > > line, but plan to because the .avi files (after renaming) do not > > play. > > >Have Fun, > > >Brooke Clarke > >http://www.prc68.com > > That's odd. Recall there is about a minute of silence at the > beginning of the tape. This makes you think it is blank. > > Windows Media Player 9 grabs the file when you click on it in > Explorer, but it only gives the sound and no image on my Win98 > machine. I have to load the avi file manually into VLC. > > Do you have VideoLan? It's at http://www.videolan.org/ > > VLC is free, cross-platform, and shows the video much smoother than > other multimedia players I have tried (MPlayer, FLVPlayer, etc.) If > you don't have it already, give it a try. > > But that still doesn't help with the rest of the Messenger lectures. > > I think there's no choice but to install Silverlight. I don't want > it on my main machine since MS is such a huge target for malware, so > I'll put it on a clone in VBox or VMware later when I have some > time. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Jul 17 22:31:11 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 18:31:11 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft Message-ID: In a message dated 17/07/2009 22:33:52 GMT Daylight Time, xde-l2g3 at myamail.com writes: I think there's no choice but to install Silverlight. I don't want it on my main machine since MS is such a huge target for malware, so I'll put it on a clone in VBox or VMware later when I have some time. ---------------- After recombining the files with a small utility called "HJSplit" I found the resulting avi file to open and play both sound and video in Windows Media Player 10, although there is, as you say, quite a long blank run in at the beginning. However, I have noticed that the avi file format does seem to be continually evolving, in that I've quite often been informed that media player couldn't open a recently downloaded avi file unless I installed yet another new or revised codec. To find it playing the audio but not the video under such circumstances was not unusual. I seem to recall this happened even more frequently when I was using Media Player 9 so perhaps this might be at least part of the cause of your problems. regards Nigel GM8PZR From rexa at sonic.net Sat Jul 18 00:31:40 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2009 17:31:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6117EC.5010804@sonic.net> GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: ... > >However, I have noticed that the avi file format does seem to be >continually evolving, in that I've quite often been informed that media player >couldn't open a recently downloaded avi file unless I installed yet another new >or revised codec. >To find it playing the audio but not the video under such circumstances was > not unusual. >I seem to recall this happened even more frequently when I was using Media >Player 9 so perhaps this might be at least part of the cause of your >problems. > >regards > >Nigel >GM8PZR > > > AVI isn't really an encoding format. It is a container that can hold (typically) video and audio streams, and the streams could be encoded with a wide range of codecs. I haven't looked at the Feynman videos, so can't say how they may be encoded. The VLC player is attractive because it is free and it comes with decoders for most of the popular codecs that may be encountered. The Microsoft windows players frequently don't handle all the codecs that are popular. One symptom is only hearing audio because that stream could be decoded but the video format was unknown. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Video_Interleave The Quicktime mov files are similar in that they are also containers for different kinds of streams. From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Sat Jul 18 12:52:22 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 07:52:22 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted byMicrosoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62D3E2AC6B084032A44D86588C7364D8@didierhp> What is the password for the video file? Or is there another place to download them from that does not require a password? Thanks Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike Monett > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2009 7:59 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on > Physics hosted byMicrosoft > > > > The "Character of Physical Law - Richard Feynman", parts 1 to 5 > > were removed due to copyright complaint, but they are still > > available on RapidShare, along with audio from "Surely You're > > Joking, Mr Feynman!" > > > > +-+Richard+Feynman&filetype=0> > > Rats. That's an encrypted file. IZArc reqires a password. The other > links at the top of the page are payware. > > FilesTube has them in AVI, but split into 7 parts of 100MB ea. You > have to download them from RapidSare and merge them separately. > > RapidShare has a stated limit of one download per day, but they > allowed me to download again after waiting only one hour. > > > http://www.filestube.com/806d48c7ae12180d03e9,g/The-Character- > of-Physical-Law-1-myTVblog-org-001.html > > Sorry. I'll try to find a better link when I have some time. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sat Jul 18 13:01:48 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 15:01:48 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX Message-ID: <9635FF387DF34591BAB08EBF8F7FCE63@athlon> Guys, I have uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: 1) A really god manual written by Murray Greenman is available now. It is included in the .zip file 2) The preset command list in the "Manual Command Entry" window is complete now 3) After 3 minutes of inactivity of the "Manual Command Entry" window it closes and the normal communication thread restarts automatic 4) The file naming convention for the data files has been changed. The new format is "Z38XXDataYYYYCWZZ.Txt" where YYYY stands for the year and ZZ stands for the current calendar week. I.e. every new week a new file is written. That limits the maximum filesize to a reasonable number and prevents the data file size from growing above any bound. In addition reading the data file(s) at the start of Z38XX will get faster. The new version is backward compatible to the older versions. Enjoy! Ulrich Bangert www.ulrich-bangert.de Ortholzer Weg 1 27243 Gross Ippener From sar10538 at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 13:34:46 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 01:34:46 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX In-Reply-To: <9635FF387DF34591BAB08EBF8F7FCE63@athlon> References: <9635FF387DF34591BAB08EBF8F7FCE63@athlon> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907180634x2d2807e9y273c69529cf54747@mail.gmail.com> Ulrich, Thanks again for an excellent tool that just keeps on getting better. You have pre-empted my thoughts on adding a timeout to the manual entry mode, I got caught out by that just yesterday. I also like the new data file system. One thing with the manual entry commands, unfortunately these seem to be for the Motorola receiver as fitted to the Z3801A (& Z3816A?), I believe, and a number of them do not work for the FURUNO GT-8031B as fitted in the Z3805A that Bob (fluke.l) was selling. I have had no luck finding the command set on the Net and so have contacted Furuno to see if they will provide me with this info. So far they are asking questions about what business I am in and what I propose for future sales. If I get the command list from them I will let you have it. Thanks, Steve 2009/7/19 Ulrich Bangert : > Guys, > > I have uploaded a new version of Z38XX with the following improvements: > > 1) A really god manual written by Murray Greenman is available now. It is > included in the .zip file > > 2) The preset command list in the "Manual Command Entry" window is complete > now > > 3) After 3 minutes of inactivity of the "Manual Command Entry" window it > closes and the normal communication thread restarts automatic > > 4) The file naming convention for the data files has been changed. The new > format is "Z38XXDataYYYYCWZZ.Txt" where YYYY stands for the year and ZZ > stands for the current calendar week. I.e. every new week a new file is > written. That limits the maximum filesize to a reasonable number and > prevents the data file size from growing above any bound. In addition > reading the data file(s) at the start of Z38XX will get faster. The new > version is backward compatible to the older versions. > > Enjoy! > > Ulrich Bangert > www.ulrich-bangert.de > Ortholzer Weg 1 > 27243 Gross Ippener > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Sat Jul 18 15:33:04 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:33:04 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM Message-ID: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO> Subject says all. I have a very poor scan of the 7150 Service Manual. 7150+ is somewhat different. I have sent an email to Emerson (successors of Solartron Mobrey) in the hope that they may still have this. Manuals Plus has a photocopy at USD30. Hoping to find a complete original or a good quality scan. Dave at Artek Media has the 7150, but not the 7150+. Thanks, David Partridge From jfor at quik.com Sat Jul 18 16:03:03 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals In-Reply-To: <10970B94E9FC467F9092BBC8EA7C2CE3@devoffice> References: <6742398545A747F0B50ABF45B14C1272@devoffice> <10970B94E9FC467F9092BBC8EA7C2CE3@devoffice> Message-ID: <1196.12.6.201.119.1247932983.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I tried to sell my working 207 (but w/o the manual) several years ago. I could not even get $100 for it at any of several local flea markets. FWIW, -John ============ > Advice ? > Dave M's question about that manual reminded me of a bunch of this old > "stuff" I have just occupying space. I have an old Fluke 207 VLF > Receiver/Comparator (I think 207-5) complete with manual/schematics as > well > as the Fluke 103A with manual/schematics. > They haven't been hooked up or used in years but it's time to "clean > house" > on a bunch of this old stuff. Could anyone give me some idea of value, if > any these days? Perhaps as lot. > > Many thanks > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From fortime at bellsouth.net Sat Jul 18 16:10:56 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 12:10:56 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals References: <6742398545A747F0B50ABF45B14C1272@devoffice><10970B94E9FC467F9092BBC8EA7C2CE3@devoffice> <1196.12.6.201.119.1247932983.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: Thank You John ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. Forster" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Advice ? Fluke 207 / 103A + complete manuals >I tried to sell my working 207 (but w/o the manual) several years ago. I > could not even get $100 for it at any of several local flea markets. > > FWIW, > -John > > ============ > >> Advice ? >> Dave M's question about that manual reminded me of a bunch of this old >> "stuff" I have just occupying space. I have an old Fluke 207 VLF >> Receiver/Comparator (I think 207-5) complete with manual/schematics as >> well >> as the Fluke 103A with manual/schematics. >> They haven't been hooked up or used in years but it's time to "clean >> house" >> on a bunch of this old stuff. Could anyone give me some idea of value, if >> any these days? Perhaps as lot. >> >> Many thanks >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From swperk at earthlink.net Sat Jul 18 17:03:21 2009 From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 10:03:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX software and HP 58503A Message-ID: <000001ca07c9$a7cb2610$f7617230$@net> I have been using the Z38XX software (thanks Ulrich!) for a while now with my 58503A and it's worked very well. I recently installed the update that included the spelling corrections and displayed the date along with the time, and found to my dismay that this version no longer worked with my 58503A. Later I installed the current update (20090716) with no success, either. The software appears to be identifying the 58503A, as the response to the *IDN? command is in the lower right corner of the main window, but there is no other data collected or displayed. I tried GPSCon and it is still working fine with the 58503A, so I suspect a change in the Z38XX software itself is causing this problem. Has anyone else noticed this? If it turns out that this is a problem that will not be correctable, can someone point me to an archive with an older version of Z38XX? The most recent version I used that worked was the first version with the Nixie-style time display. Thanks, Stan From ernieperes at aol.com Sat Jul 18 20:36:28 2009 From: ernieperes at aol.com (ernieperes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:36:28 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX software and HP 58503A In-Reply-To: <000001ca07c9$a7cb2610$f7617230$@net> References: <000001ca07c9$a7cb2610$f7617230$@net> Message-ID: <8CBD5FE8F645164-136C-33C0@FWM-D16.sysops.aol.com> Hi Stan, I have all the older version of the Z38XX SW. Let me know which date do you like and I can forward to you. I did not installed yet any-one because the project not yet completed. Rgds Ernie. -----Original Message----- From: Stan To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Sat, Jul 18, 2009 7:03 pm Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX software and HP 58503A I have been using the Z38XX software (thanks Ulrich!) for a while now with my 58503A and it's worked very well. I recently installed the update that included the spelling corrections and displayed the date along with the time, and found to my dismay that this version no longer worked with my 58503A. Later I installed the current update (20090716) with no success, either. The software appears to be identifying the 58503A, as the response to the *IDN? command is in the lower right corner of the main window, but there is no other data collected or displayed. I tried GPSCon and it is still working fine with the 58503A, so I suspect a change in the Z38XX software itself is causing this problem. Has anyone else noticed this? If it turns out that this is a problem that will not be correctable, can someone point me to an archive with an older version of Z38XX? The most recent version I used that worked was the first version with the Nixie-style time display. Thanks, Stan _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 18 20:09:09 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:09:09 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft References: Message-ID: Robert Darlington wrote: > >Are you sure it uses Silverlight? I had no problem viewing the videos with >FireFox (under XP Pro). Then again, maybe they have a Silverlight plugin >for FireFox that I didn't realize I was running. > >-Bob Hi Bob, Yes, if you don't have Silverlight installed, the only thing you see is a message to install it. You didn't notice it being installed since you probably have Automatic Updates turned on. You will find it in your \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\ folder, where it puts about 14 MB of new DLL's. It also adds four language files: mscorlib.resourc system.resources mscorrc.dll Microsoft.Visual in the following folders: \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\de \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\es \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\fr \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\it \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\ja \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\ko \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\zh-Hans \Program Files\Microsoft Silverlight\3.0.40624.0\zh-Hant These take about 40k for each folder. These will probably never be used, so it might be possible to erase them and save ~300KB. No files were added to any other folder in my version. Now I really have to say this. I distrust Microsoft intensely. I have wasted years of my life fighting problems caused by their sloppy programming. I run Win98 as my main os since it is the snappiest of all the operating systems I can find, and after years of work, I have finally solved all the problems with registry corruption that require a complete reinstall. Since WINE is such a joke, I really need XP to run engineering software that is simply not available in Linux. But until I could lock XP down, it was silly to start using these programs and risk losing everything downstream when XP started going unstable. To solve this problem, I run WinXP in VirtualBox in Ubuntu 9.04. VirtualBox has a severe snapshot corruption problem that eventually destroys the entire installation. There is a simple solution: don't use snapshots. Instead, make new folders in your Home directory named .VB01, .VB02, etc. Then copy the entire contents of .VirtualBox to the appropriate folder when you want to make a backup. Now you can revert to any previous installation whenever you need to. This works like a charm. For WinXP, I turn off Automatic Updates since it completely corrupted one installation and I had to reinstall everything. I turn off Restore Point on each drive, and turn off the firewall since I use a NAT router. I disable the antivirus warning, and erase Outlook, MSN, Messenger, NetMeeting, the games folder, and any other programs or folders that are not needed. Where needed, I replace these with other programs that often outperform the Microsoft versions, and do not suffer from the same vulnerabilities. I use the System File Checker from Win98 to verify the file integrity. It has the same name as another program in XP, but they are completely different programs. The version in XP is crippled and useless. Now I can tell exactly what files have been added or changed, and can completely restore the system after some program has dug itself deeply into the os. I also use ERUNT to archive the registry: http://www.larshederer.homepage.t-online.de/erunt/ Along with good backups, I now feel I can recover from any disaster that Microsoft can inflict. But after wasting weeks on Microsoft Virtual PC, I swore I would never again install any Microsoft program. So I was extremely reluctant to install SilverLight, since I felt it would be just another example of sloppy Microsoft programming that would end up making me sorry for the wasted time. But I do have to say that Silverlight appears to be completely different than most Microsoft crud. It is fast, smooth, displays very high quality images, and it seems to outperform Adobe Flash by a wide margin. It appears that Bill Gates has completely outsmarted me. The only way he could get me to try Silverlight would be to offer the complete Feynman lectures in Silverlight format. Nothing else would have been compelling enough. Now that I am hooked, I will search for other technical articles in this format. It is very good! Best, Mike From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 18 20:41:05 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:41:05 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft References: <62D3E2AC6B084032A44D86588C7364D8@didierhp> Message-ID: "Didier Juges" wrote: > >What is the password for the video file? > >Or is there another place to download them from that does not require a >password? > >Thanks > >Didier KO4BB Didier, Sorry, I could not find a password for the file. Also, it is only one of the 7 lectures in the series, and I could not find the others except on payware sites, and there is no way to tell the quality until after you have paid and downloaded them. The only place they are all available is on the Microsoft site http://research.microsoft.com/apps/tools/tuva/index.html You have to install Silverlight. I tried installing it in WINE, but it wouldn't install. It appears the best alternative is to run WinXP in VirtualBox. It is free, but don't use the OSE version in Synaptic if you are running Ubuntu. Get the PUEL version directly from SUN. I tried the latest version 3.x but it has bugs. I recommend using the previous version 2.2.4 available here: http://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Download_Old_Builds Unplug the LAN cable when installing XP to prevent it from automatically updating files. I found it wrecks the installation, and I turn automatic updates off as soon as I get the chance. When you have XP running, share the entire Linux desktop folder so you can easily transfer any files. As I mentioned in a previous post, do not use the snapshot feature. It will get corrupted and you will lose the entire installation. Instead, for backups, copy the entire .Virtualbox folder to another backup folder. I use .VB01, .VB02, etc. Now you can revert to any previous installation any time you want. The Feynman lectures are extremely good. It is really worth the time and effort it takes to view them. Best, Mike From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 18 21:21:27 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 18:21:27 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft Message-ID: Mike Monett said: > Unplug the LAN cable when installing XP to prevent it from > automatically updating files. I found it wrecks the installation, > and I turn automatic updates off as soon as I get the chance. I missed an important point. There is a step near the end of the XP installation where it tries to connect to the web. You will see a series of yellow dashes connecting to a picture of the Earth, then surrounding it. The LAN cable needs to be plugged in at this point so XP can load the files needed to connect to the web. If you don't allow it to do this, it won't connect later and you have to re-do the entire installation again. Plug the LAN cable in for this step, then immediately unplug it when the screen displays the question about how you connect to the web. Answer the question to proceed. When XP finally installs, turn off Automatic Updates as soon as it gives you a chance, while it is displaying all the warnings and tour messages. You can turn off Automatic Updates in Control Panel -> Security Center -> Change the way Security Center Alerts me. Best, Mike From rdarlington at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 22:41:24 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 16:41:24 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I assure you, Windows XP does not update automatically without asking (or you intentionally configuring it to do so). Also, you do not need a LAN cable attached during installation for any reason, especially for configuring the network settings. After install is complete and you boot the first time, just configure network settings as usual or auto-update settings, etc. -Bob (minesweeper certified solitaire engineer) On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 3:21 PM, Mike Monett wrote: > > Mike Monett said: > > > Unplug the LAN cable when installing XP to prevent it from > > automatically updating files. I found it wrecks the installation, > > and I turn automatic updates off as soon as I get the chance. > > I missed an important point. There is a step near the end of the XP > installation where it tries to connect to the web. You will see a > series of yellow dashes connecting to a picture of the Earth, then > surrounding it. > > The LAN cable needs to be plugged in at this point so XP can load > the files needed to connect to the web. If you don't allow it to do > this, it won't connect later and you have to re-do the entire > installation again. > > Plug the LAN cable in for this step, then immediately unplug it when > the screen displays the question about how you connect to the web. > > Answer the question to proceed. > > When XP finally installs, turn off Automatic Updates as soon as it > gives you a chance, while it is displaying all the warnings and tour > messages. > > You can turn off Automatic Updates in Control Panel -> Security > Center -> Change the way Security Center Alerts me. > > Best, > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From xde-l2g3 at myamail.com Sat Jul 18 23:37:31 2009 From: xde-l2g3 at myamail.com (Mike Monett) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:37:31 -0300 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft Message-ID: > I assure you, Windows XP does not update automatically without > asking (or you intentionally configuring it to do so). Also, you > do not need a LAN cable attached during installation for any > reason, especially for configuring the network settings. After > install is complete and you boot the first time, just configure > network settings as usual or auto-update settings, etc. > -Bob (minesweeper certified solitaire engineer) Sorry, Robert. I'm using SP3. Maybe it is different from what you are used to. I have spent the past several weeks installing and re-installing XP due to problems with VirtualBox, XP file formats, snapshot corruptions, trying to install XEN on top of VirtualBox (don't do that!) or any number of other problems. XP will not allow you to connect to the web if you do not have the LAN cable connected at the point in the installation when it tries to see if it can connect. I tried this several times and found the cable had to be connected at that point. But then you must disconnect the cable for the rest of the installation. The default for Auto Update is set true. After first boot, there are several places where it will start updating. There may be a notification that it will do so, but it is very easy to misinterpret or miss it entirely. When XP first starts, there are so many warnings about missing antivirus programs, firewall, taking the XP tour, and I forget what else. It is very easy to get distracted and click the wrong button, then you are hosed and have to start over again. The safest way is to disconnect the LAN cable until you have turned everything off and won't have to deal with any more distractions. Another thing that might be worth looking at. ReactOS is starting to show some good results: http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html It would be very interesting to see if Silverlight would install and run on it. Eventually they will get there. Wouldn't that be funny! Best, Mike From GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Jul 19 00:45:38 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:45:38 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM Message-ID: In a message dated 18/07/2009 16:33:32 GMT Daylight Time, david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com writes: I have a very poor scan of the 7150 Service Manual. 7150+ is somewhat different. I have sent an email to Emerson (successors of Solartron Mobrey) in the hope that they may still have this. Manuals Plus has a photocopy at USD30. Hoping to find a complete original or a good quality scan. Dave at Artek Media has the 7150, but not the 7150+. ----------------- Hi David, and anyone else who might interested, I do have an original 7150+ service manual, bought as NOS towards the end of last year around the same time that I bought three 7150+ DMMs via Ebay. I am happy to share this but do have some problems making clean scans from A3 pages right now, and this manual contains quite a few A3 foldout diagrams. My problem is the Twain driver for my Epson "photo quality" scanner, ironically the last scanner for which they used Twain drivers, which insists on copying black and white documents in at least 8 bit 256 colour mode rather than the 1 bit 2 colour mode of my previous, very slow but much less hassle, parallel port unit. The problem comes when an A3 page is laid across the edges of the A4 bed in order to scan it in sections. Because of the enhanced sensitivity to half tones, and the difficulty of getting the edges to lay flat to the scanning plate, a lot of noise tends to be introduced at page edges and this can take ages to remove. There's no easy solution, most diagrams require manual processsing and most other software automatically seeks out the Epson drivers. Epson have been less than helpful, pretty pictures fine, scanned black and white pages, Oh dear:-( Until I can recover my "proper" document scanners from storage, and get them up and running again, I'm stuck with what I've got and, as per above, that ain't great. I don't like putting imperfect work in the public domain, it tends to stick and go round for ever, but don't have too much time right now to scan this and then tidy up the noisy edges. One option is just to wait while I work my way through it, no guarantees on timing, and another is that somebody pays for copies and takes over the responsibility for making a scanned copy available. There are no sensibly priced copy shops out here in the middle of the Clyde estuary, we just have Dunoon library at 10p per A4 sheet and 20p for A3, anyone can cope with that please let me know. Copy cost and onward postage From GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Jul 19 00:54:55 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:54:55 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM Message-ID: In a message dated 19/07/2009 01:46:31 GMT Daylight Time, GandalfG8 at aol.com writes: There are no sensibly priced copy shops out here in the middle of the Clyde estuary, we just have Dunoon library at 10p per A4 sheet and 20p for A3, anyone can cope with that please let me know. Copy cost and onward postage ------------- Whoops, hit send early:-) Was going to say that copy cost and onward postage might get expensive but will check manual and estimate costs for anyone who's interested. regards Nigel GM8PZR From jfor at quik.com Sun Jul 19 00:58:27 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 17:58:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2317.12.6.201.200.1247965107.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> I have installed XP from CD and it does NOT try to call the mother ship. I THINK the same applies up until SP3. At SP3 it does insist on connecting with home base. FWIW, -John =============== > > I assure you, Windows XP does not update automatically without > > asking (or you intentionally configuring it to do so). Also, you > > do not need a LAN cable attached during installation for any > > reason, especially for configuring the network settings. After > > install is complete and you boot the first time, just configure > > network settings as usual or auto-update settings, etc. > > > -Bob (minesweeper certified solitaire engineer) > > Sorry, Robert. I'm using SP3. Maybe it is different from what you > are used to. > > I have spent the past several weeks installing and re-installing XP > due to problems with VirtualBox, XP file formats, snapshot > corruptions, trying to install XEN on top of VirtualBox (don't do > that!) or any number of other problems. > > XP will not allow you to connect to the web if you do not have the > LAN cable connected at the point in the installation when it tries > to see if it can connect. I tried this several times and found the > cable had to be connected at that point. > > But then you must disconnect the cable for the rest of the > installation. > > The default for Auto Update is set true. After first boot, there are > several places where it will start updating. > > There may be a notification that it will do so, but it is very easy > to misinterpret or miss it entirely. > > When XP first starts, there are so many warnings about missing > antivirus programs, firewall, taking the XP tour, and I forget what > else. It is very easy to get distracted and click the wrong button, > then you are hosed and have to start over again. > > The safest way is to disconnect the LAN cable until you have turned > everything off and won't have to deal with any more distractions. > > Another thing that might be worth looking at. ReactOS is starting to > show some good results: > > http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html > > It would be very interesting to see if Silverlight would install and > run on it. Eventually they will get there. > > Wouldn't that be funny! > > Best, > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From rdarlington at gmail.com Sun Jul 19 01:21:01 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 19:21:01 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] OT - Feynman lecture series on Physics hosted by Microsoft In-Reply-To: <2317.12.6.201.200.1247965107.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <2317.12.6.201.200.1247965107.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: This might be the case, but I find it very hard to believe. I mean, what happens if you don't have an Ethernet card? What happens if you don't have a connection to the 'net ? I mailed Mike off the list indicating that I'd slipstream in SP3 and give it a whirl this week. I moved off the list because it's not time related anymore. -Bob On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 6:58 PM, J. Forster wrote: > I have installed XP from CD and it does NOT try to call the mother ship. I > THINK the same applies up until SP3. At SP3 it does insist on connecting > with home base. > > FWIW, > -John > > =============== > > > > > I assure you, Windows XP does not update automatically without > > > asking (or you intentionally configuring it to do so). Also, you > > > do not need a LAN cable attached during installation for any > > > reason, especially for configuring the network settings. After > > > install is complete and you boot the first time, just configure > > > network settings as usual or auto-update settings, etc. > > > > > -Bob (minesweeper certified solitaire engineer) > > > > Sorry, Robert. I'm using SP3. Maybe it is different from what you > > are used to. > > > > I have spent the past several weeks installing and re-installing XP > > due to problems with VirtualBox, XP file formats, snapshot > > corruptions, trying to install XEN on top of VirtualBox (don't do > > that!) or any number of other problems. > > > > XP will not allow you to connect to the web if you do not have the > > LAN cable connected at the point in the installation when it tries > > to see if it can connect. I tried this several times and found the > > cable had to be connected at that point. > > > > But then you must disconnect the cable for the rest of the > > installation. > > > > The default for Auto Update is set true. After first boot, there are > > several places where it will start updating. > > > > There may be a notification that it will do so, but it is very easy > > to misinterpret or miss it entirely. > > > > When XP first starts, there are so many warnings about missing > > antivirus programs, firewall, taking the XP tour, and I forget what > > else. It is very easy to get distracted and click the wrong button, > > then you are hosed and have to start over again. > > > > The safest way is to disconnect the LAN cable until you have turned > > everything off and won't have to deal with any more distractions. > > > > Another thing that might be worth looking at. ReactOS is starting to > > show some good results: > > > > http://www.reactos.org/en/index.html > > > > It would be very interesting to see if Silverlight would install and > > run on it. Eventually they will get there. > > > > Wouldn't that be funny! > > > > Best, > > > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From lstoskopf at cox.net Sun Jul 19 03:08:02 2009 From: lstoskopf at cox.net (lstoskopf at cox.net) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 23:08:02 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Feynman In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20090718230802.H8GC3.214188.imail@eastrmwml28> Gee, I must have done something wrong. Ran the first hour from the link, book marked it, then in the upper right corner is a drop down of the 7 lectures. I'm on hour 4. XP with SP3. This is my Internet computer that I let MS have it way with. The good stuff is on a couple of other boxes. N0UU BTW: I flew from KS to NYC some years back just to see Alan Alda do his Broadway show on Feynman. Feynman almost does it better!! From ch at murgatroid.com Sun Jul 19 03:25:47 2009 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:25:47 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] e*ay: AUSTRON MODEL 1210D-O1 CRYSTAL CLOCK OSCILLATOR Message-ID: <4A62923B.908@murgatroid.com> item # 220403183258. listing says 3 available. nice, but a little too spendy for me. -ch From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 19 03:41:05 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:41:05 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A Message-ID: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates with AC connector on the back. The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. Thanks in advance. Joe From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Jul 19 03:45:10 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 20:45:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A References: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> Message-ID: <34750DE815B341DC9E21C4451FADA12C@pc52> > Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, > 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates with AC > connector on the back. > > The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates with > the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. > > Thanks in advance. > > Joe See if this helps. http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins that match the schematic. /tvb From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 19 03:58:11 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:58:11 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <34750DE815B341DC9E21C4451FADA12C@pc52> Message-ID: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and mating connector to something that I can find? Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, > 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates > with AC connector on the back. > > The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates > with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. > > Thanks in advance. > > Joe See if this helps. http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins that match the schematic. /tvb _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From fortime at bellsouth.net Sun Jul 19 04:11:36 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 00:11:36 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> Message-ID: <79FB81ADDE5846B19AEB1D303F413226@devoffice> I put them on -bay every now and then but they bring big bucks. Try this link for the connector only, http://www.peigenesis.com/itt-cannon-connectors.html You may alter your search and include Military Connectors or Military power cords as that was common on some of the older Military versions of HP equipment. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "J. L. Trantham" To: "'Tom Van Baak'" ; "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 11:58 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A >I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are > they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and > mating connector to something that I can find? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > >> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >> with AC connector on the back. >> >> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Joe > > See if this helps. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > > Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins > that match the schematic. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 19 04:12:48 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:12:48 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> Message-ID: <4A629D40.5020807@xtra.co.nz> Try: http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.htm?pnum=DMS3106A18-22S-DDK Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are > they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and > mating connector to something that I can find? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > > >> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >> with AC connector on the back. >> >> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Joe >> > > See if this helps. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > > Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins > that match the schematic. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From brooke at pacific.net Sun Jul 19 05:05:49 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:05:49 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> References: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> Message-ID: <4A62A9AD.6090205@pacific.net> Hi Joe: Phone William Perry for used and new connectors at a reasonable price. http://www.prc68.com/I/MSD.shtml#W Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com J. L. Trantham wrote: > Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, > 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates with AC > connector on the back. > > The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates with > the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. > > Thanks in advance. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Sun Jul 19 05:18:09 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2009 22:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> References: <8547D37806ED4679A99FD007BCA8ADFF@S0028384766> Message-ID: <1052.12.6.201.151.1247980689.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> MS connectors are very standard. Allied ($$$) or Wm. Perry. Best, -John ========== > Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, > 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates with > AC > connector on the back. > > The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates with > the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. > > Thanks in advance. > > Joe > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Sun Jul 19 08:23:42 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:23:42 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Z38XX software and HP 58503A In-Reply-To: <000001ca07c9$a7cb2610$f7617230$@net> Message-ID: Stan, your observations are correct but what you may feel is a flaw of the newer versions is indeed a big improvement: Z38XX does nothing until it has identified the attched unit and knows exactly how to do with it. "Identifying" is not simply a means of getting an answer to *IDN? but to detect something known in the answer. Send me a log file made from the debug window and I will include the HP58503 into the group of "known" devices. Best regards Ulrich > -----Ursprungliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Stan > Gesendet: Samstag, 18. Juli 2009 19:03 > An: time-nuts at febo.com > Betreff: [time-nuts] Z38XX software and HP 58503A > > > I have been using the Z38XX software (thanks Ulrich!) for a > while now with my 58503A and it's worked very well. I > recently installed the update that included the spelling > corrections and displayed the date along with the time, and > found to my dismay that this version no longer worked with my > 58503A. Later I installed the current update (20090716) with > no success, either. The software appears to be identifying > the 58503A, as the response to the *IDN? command is in the > lower right corner of the main window, but there is no other > data collected or displayed. I tried GPSCon and it is still > working fine with the 58503A, so I suspect a change in the > Z38XX software itself is causing this problem. Has anyone > else noticed this? If it turns out that this is a problem > that will not be correctable, can someone point me to an > archive with an older version of Z38XX? The most recent > version I used that worked was the first version with the > Nixie-style time display. > > > > Thanks, > Stan > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jra at febo.com Sun Jul 19 11:25:03 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> Message-ID: <4A63028F.1010502@febo.com> I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and that's what DK had. John ---- J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: > I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are > they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and > mating connector to something that I can find? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > >> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >> with AC connector on the back. >> >> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Joe > > See if this helps. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > > Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins > that match the schematic. > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From had at to-way.com Sun Jul 19 14:06:11 2009 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:06:11 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] e*ay: AUSTRON MODEL 1210D-O1 CRYSTAL CLOCK OSCILLATOR In-Reply-To: <4A62923B.908@murgatroid.com> References: <4A62923B.908@murgatroid.com> Message-ID: <20090719140615.DC295CBCD43@mail-in02.adhost.com> Yup, that price is about double what it should be. Had, K7MLR At 08:25 PM 7/18/2009, you wrote: >item # 220403183258. > >listing says 3 available. > >nice, but a little too spendy for me. > >-ch > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Jul 19 14:38:34 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:38:34 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> Message-ID: <551BD7EFF2624E459CD8381AFFAE0965@pc52> >I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are > they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and > mating connector to something that I can find? > > Thanks, > Joe I would not replace the connectors. Last I ordered one it was around $15. Quite a number of these Amphenol or Cannon MS circular connectors are at: www.digikey.com www.mouser.com www.alliedelec.com Start with the word MS3106A in their search boxes. Be careful with the selection as there are a number of variations of pins and shells and coatings, etc. /tvb From bill at iaxs.net Sun Jul 19 14:57:16 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:57:16 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <4A63028F.1010502@febo.com> References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> <4A63028F.1010502@febo.com> Message-ID: Military Standard (the MS in MS3106) connectors all have the same basic part number no matter who makes them. Vendors may apply prefix initials. MS connectors appear to be obsolete, replaced by the MIL-C- series. 3106A defines the connector shell style - cable connector in this case. 18 defines the shell size, and 22S defines the layout of pins in the connector, which defines the number and size of the pins. Some layouts have large pins for power and small or coaxial pins for signals. Don't know about the W in SW, maybe waterproof. The W doesn't appear in Tom's photo. Think S stands for sockets and P for pins. Previous postings have given several sources for MS connectors. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 6:25 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and that's what DK had. John ---- J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: > I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are > they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and > mating connector to something that I can find? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > >> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >> with AC connector on the back. >> >> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Joe > > See if this helps. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > > Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins > that match the schematic. > > /tvb > > From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Sun Jul 19 15:00:32 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 17:00:32 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A Message-ID: MS3106A-18-22SW ? that special type of connector will be very hard to get (if you do not find the original cable for this unit)! The insert is not standard: "Not MSA/B insert arrangements and polarization" This spec. is very old and even the US-Militaries did advice already decades of years ago to not use them anymore in new design. One problem with this old MIL-Spec. connectors is that these contain a lot of cadmium for protection against corrosion on their surface. Cadmium is known to be very toxic and is today forbidden to be applied. The cadmium is covered by a green chromate film, which is not very resistant when the surface is being scratched with some force. Technical details: It is a MIL-C-5015 Power type connector with large contacts, threaded coupling, straight plug and shell size 18, But this contact arrangement18-22 is not on all manufacturers lists. I guess that only some chinese manufacturer do still have them in the productiong line for spares, if at all. Attention to the 'W' in the type number which does mean that the insert is turned by 70 deg. to avoid to be connected with std. types used for other purposes...both mating part must have this marking! some techn. infos under http://www.in2connect.uk.com/c2/uploads/a5015%20ms1.pdf www.amphenol-aerospace.com/pdf/knowconnectors.pdf I would propose in this case to exchange the original parts with modern types fitting in this position and being qualified to be used for mains connection. Good luck! regards Arnold On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: >I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't >recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference >from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and >that's what DK had. >John >---- >J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: >> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are >> they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and >> mating connector to something that I can find? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Tom Van Baak >> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A >> >> >>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >>> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >>> with AC connector on the back. >>> >>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> Joe >> >> See if this helps. >> >> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm >> >> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins >> that match the schematic. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 19 15:21:17 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 15:21:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <741751.45189.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Mil-C-5015 approved as mains connectors, the main problem is that all pins disconnect at more or less the same time. Electrical safety dictates that the earth should disconnect last. I'd replace them with modern IEC type connectors. If you don't want to ruin the originality of the unit, use a free (cord mounted) male connector. Put a compression type strain relief in the round hole left by the mil connector. Robert G8RPI. --- On Sun, 19/7/09, Arnold Tibus wrote: > From: Arnold Tibus > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Sunday, 19 July, 2009, 4:00 PM > MS3106A-18-22SW ? > that special type of connector will be very hard to get > (if you do not find the original cable for this unit)! > > The insert is not standard: > "Not MSA/B insert arrangements and polarization" > > This spec. is very old and even the US-Militaries did > advice already > decades of years ago to not use them anymore in new > design. > > One problem with this old MIL-Spec. connectors is that > these contain > a lot of cadmium for protection against corrosion on their > surface. > Cadmium is known to be very toxic and is today forbidden to > be applied. > The cadmium is covered by a green chromate film, which is > not very > resistant when the surface is being scratched with some > force. > > Technical details: > It is a MIL-C-5015 Power type connector with large > contacts, > threaded coupling, straight plug and shell size 18, > But this contact arrangement18-22 is not on all > manufacturers lists. > I guess that only some chinese manufacturer do still have > them > in the productiong line for spares, if at all. > > Attention to the 'W' in the type number which does mean > that > the insert is turned by 70 deg. to avoid to be connected > with std. > types used for other purposes...both mating part must have > this marking! > > some techn. infos under > http://www.in2connect.uk.com/c2/uploads/a5015%20ms1.pdf > www.amphenol-aerospace.com/pdf/knowconnectors.pdf > > I would propose in this case to exchange the original parts > with > modern types fitting in this position and being qualified > to be used > for mains connection. > > Good luck! > > regards > Arnold > > > On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR > wrote: > > >I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago.? > Unfortunately, I don't > >recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a > cross-reference > >from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I > think AMP) and > >that's what DK had. > > >John > >---- > > >J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 > PM: > >> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't > find the connectors.? Are > >> they still available or should I change both the > chassis connector and > >> mating connector to something that I can find? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > >> Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > >> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency > measurement > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for > 5061A > >> > >> > >>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord > for the 5061A (or 5061B, > >>> 5065A, etc.)?? I am looking for 3 cords > or the connector that mates > >>> with AC connector on the back. > >>> > >>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and > the connector that mates > >>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon > MS3106A-18-22SW. > >>> > >>> Thanks in advance. > >>> > >>> Joe > >> > >> See if this helps. > >> > >> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > >> > >> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has > pins > >> that match the schematic. > >> > >> /tvb > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sun Jul 19 15:24:53 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:24:53 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> As usual, the list has provided extremely helpful information. The 'W', indeed defines the rotation of the insert. Interestingly, I note on the picture from Tom's site exactly matches my connector (I just need more) and it shows 'W', 'X', 'Y', and 'Z' around the face of the insert with the 'W' aligned with the keying slot. If this means that the rotation can be 'user selected' as you assemble the connector, I am home free. I have not tried to disassemble the connector yet but will when I get back from work today. Anyone know anything about that? Is it 'user selected' on the mating chassis connector as well? Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Arnold Tibus Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:01 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A MS3106A-18-22SW ? that special type of connector will be very hard to get (if you do not find the original cable for this unit)! The insert is not standard: "Not MSA/B insert arrangements and polarization" This spec. is very old and even the US-Militaries did advice already decades of years ago to not use them anymore in new design. One problem with this old MIL-Spec. connectors is that these contain a lot of cadmium for protection against corrosion on their surface. Cadmium is known to be very toxic and is today forbidden to be applied. The cadmium is covered by a green chromate film, which is not very resistant when the surface is being scratched with some force. Technical details: It is a MIL-C-5015 Power type connector with large contacts, threaded coupling, straight plug and shell size 18, But this contact arrangement18-22 is not on all manufacturers lists. I guess that only some chinese manufacturer do still have them in the productiong line for spares, if at all. Attention to the 'W' in the type number which does mean that the insert is turned by 70 deg. to avoid to be connected with std. types used for other purposes...both mating part must have this marking! some techn. infos under http://www.in2connect.uk.com/c2/uploads/a5015%20ms1.pdf www.amphenol-aerospace.com/pdf/knowconnectors.pdf I would propose in this case to exchange the original parts with modern types fitting in this position and being qualified to be used for mains connection. Good luck! regards Arnold On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: >I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't >recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference >from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and >that's what DK had. >John >---- >J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: >> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. >> Are they still available or should I change both the chassis >> connector and mating connector to something that I can find? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak >> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A >> >> >>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or >>> 5061B, >>> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >>> with AC connector on the back. >>> >>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> Joe >> >> See if this helps. >> >> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm >> >> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins >> that match the schematic. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jul 19 16:07:26 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 16:07:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> Message-ID: <443172.20346.qm@web27107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, It depends on thestyle, make and possibly even factory / production run. The polarisation is not intended to be user selectable. Some connectors have a common metal shell and all key positions in the insulator. Some have a dedicated shell or insert for each polarisation. Even if the insert has all options, it does not follow that you can dissasemble the connector to change it. Many connectors are potted and are difficult to dissasemble. Most crimp type 5015's cannot be dissasembled. Many solder types are assembled with internal "C" clips. These are not intended to be removed, but often can be. In an emergency, I've dissasembled a connector, filed off the male key for the insert and epoxied the insert in place. I used the mating connector as a jig to get the keying correct. It is very much a judgment call if this is acceptable. Personally I would not do it on a connector used for mains. Robert G8RPI. --- On Sun, 19/7/09, J. L. Trantham wrote: > From: J. L. Trantham > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" > Date: Sunday, 19 July, 2009, 4:24 PM > As usual, the list has provided > extremely helpful information. > > The 'W', indeed defines the rotation of the insert. > > Interestingly, I note on the picture from Tom's site > exactly matches my > connector (I just need more) and it shows 'W', 'X', 'Y', > and 'Z' around the > face of the insert with the 'W' aligned with the keying > slot.? > > If this means that the rotation can be 'user selected' as > you assemble the > connector, I am home free.? I have not tried to > disassemble the connector > yet but will when I get back from work today. > > Anyone know anything about that?? Is it 'user > selected' on the mating > chassis connector as well? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On > Behalf Of Arnold Tibus > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:01 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > > MS3106A-18-22SW ? > that special type of connector will be very hard to get > (if you do not find the original cable for this unit)! > > The insert is not standard: > "Not MSA/B insert arrangements and polarization" > > This spec. is very old and even the US-Militaries did > advice already decades > of years ago to not use them anymore in new design. > > One problem with this old MIL-Spec. connectors is that > these contain? a lot > of cadmium for protection against corrosion on their > surface. > Cadmium is known to be very toxic and is today forbidden to > be applied. > The cadmium is covered by a green chromate film, which is > not very > resistant when the surface is being scratched with some > force. > > Technical details: > It is a MIL-C-5015 Power type connector with large > contacts, > threaded coupling, straight plug and shell size 18, > But this contact arrangement18-22 is not on all > manufacturers lists. > I guess that only some chinese manufacturer do still have > them > in the productiong line for spares, if at all. > > Attention to the 'W' in the type number which does mean > that > the insert is turned by 70 deg. to avoid to be connected > with std. > types used for other purposes...both mating part must have > this marking! > > some techn. infos under > http://www.in2connect.uk.com/c2/uploads/a5015%20ms1.pdf > www.amphenol-aerospace.com/pdf/knowconnectors.pdf > > I would propose in this case to exchange the original parts > with > modern types fitting in this position and being qualified > to be used > for mains connection. > > Good luck! > > regards > Arnold > > > On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR > wrote: > > >I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago.? > Unfortunately, I don't > >recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a > cross-reference > >from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I > think AMP) and > >that's what DK had. > > >John > >---- > > >J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 > PM: > >> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't > find the connectors.? > >> Are they still available or should I change both > the chassis > >> connector and mating connector to something that I > can find? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > > >> On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak > >> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency > measurement > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for > 5061A > >> > >> > >>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord > for the 5061A (or > >>> 5061B, > >>> 5065A, etc.)?? I am looking for 3 cords > or the connector that mates > >>> with AC connector on the back. > >>> > >>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and > the connector that mates > >>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon > MS3106A-18-22SW. > >>> > >>> Thanks in advance. > >>> > >>> Joe > >> > >> See if this helps. > >> > >> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm > >> > >> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has > pins > >> that match the schematic. > >> > >> /tvb > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >To unsubscribe, go to > >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From danrae at verizon.net Sun Jul 19 16:11:38 2009 From: danrae at verizon.net (Dan Rae) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 09:11:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> References: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> Message-ID: <4A6345BA.9010909@verizon.net> J. L. Trantham wrote: > If this means that the rotation can be 'user selected' as you assemble the > connector, I am home free. I have not tried to disassemble the connector > yet but will when I get back from work today. > > I bought one of these recently from Digikey for a 5065A (and for nearer to $25 than the $15 that tvb quotes alas ), and yes, you can take it apart and rotate the insert to the required orientation for the -hp- units. dr From jfor at quik.com Sun Jul 19 18:07:58 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: References: <7452303CAA03476082BA44F34726684D@S0028384766> <4A63028F.1010502@febo.com> Message-ID: <1051.12.6.201.245.1248026878.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> More likely, the W is the keying. insert can be positioned typically at 4 or 5 orientations wrt the shell. No suffix letter means standard keying. -John ================ > Military Standard (the MS in MS3106) connectors all have the same > basic part number no matter who makes them. Vendors may apply > prefix initials. > > MS connectors appear to be obsolete, replaced by the MIL-C- series. > > 3106A defines the connector shell style - cable connector in this case. > 18 defines the shell size, and 22S defines the layout of pins in the > connector, which defines the number and size of the pins. Some layouts > have large pins for power and small or coaxial pins for signals. > > Don't know about the W in SW, maybe waterproof. The W doesn't appear > in Tom's photo. Think S stands for sockets and P for pins. > > Previous postings have given several sources for MS connectors. > > Bill Hawkins > > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 6:25 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't > recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference > from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and > that's what DK had. > > John > ---- > > J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: >> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. Are >> they still available or should I change both the chassis connector and >> mating connector to something that I can find? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Joe >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Tom Van Baak >> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A >> >> >>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or 5061B, >>> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >>> with AC connector on the back. >>> >>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >>> >>> Thanks in advance. >>> >>> Joe >> >> See if this helps. >> >> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm >> >> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins >> that match the schematic. >> >> /tvb >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jfor at quik.com Sun Jul 19 18:12:13 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A In-Reply-To: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> References: <5CD0C3BA90874158AA96807C1D97E24E@S0028384766> Message-ID: <1058.12.6.201.245.1248027133.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Yes. The keying can be user selected. It takes a small file to open a gap in one of the alternate molded in keying groves. You take the insert out by removing the retaining circlip, file the slot, and reinsert and replace the clip. Total time, maybe 5 minutes. -John ==================== > As usual, the list has provided extremely helpful information. > > The 'W', indeed defines the rotation of the insert. > > Interestingly, I note on the picture from Tom's site exactly matches my > connector (I just need more) and it shows 'W', 'X', 'Y', and 'Z' around > the > face of the insert with the 'W' aligned with the keying slot. > > If this means that the rotation can be 'user selected' as you assemble the > connector, I am home free. I have not tried to disassemble the connector > yet but will when I get back from work today. > > Anyone know anything about that? Is it 'user selected' on the mating > chassis connector as well? > > Thanks, > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Arnold Tibus > Sent: Sunday, July 19, 2009 10:01 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A > > > MS3106A-18-22SW ? > that special type of connector will be very hard to get > (if you do not find the original cable for this unit)! > > The insert is not standard: > "Not MSA/B insert arrangements and polarization" > > This spec. is very old and even the US-Militaries did advice already > decades > of years ago to not use them anymore in new design. > > One problem with this old MIL-Spec. connectors is that these contain a > lot > of cadmium for protection against corrosion on their surface. > Cadmium is known to be very toxic and is today forbidden to be applied. > The cadmium is covered by a green chromate film, which is not very > resistant when the surface is being scratched with some force. > > Technical details: > It is a MIL-C-5015 Power type connector with large contacts, > threaded coupling, straight plug and shell size 18, > But this contact arrangement18-22 is not on all manufacturers lists. > I guess that only some chinese manufacturer do still have them > in the productiong line for spares, if at all. > > Attention to the 'W' in the type number which does mean that > the insert is turned by 70 deg. to avoid to be connected with std. > types used for other purposes...both mating part must have this marking! > > some techn. infos under > http://www.in2connect.uk.com/c2/uploads/a5015%20ms1.pdf > www.amphenol-aerospace.com/pdf/knowconnectors.pdf > > I would propose in this case to exchange the original parts with > modern types fitting in this position and being qualified to be used > for mains connection. > > Good luck! > > regards > Arnold > > > On Sun, 19 Jul 2009 07:25:03 -0400, John Ackermann N8UR wrote: > >>I got some from Digi-key a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I don't >>recall the DK part number, but I recall I had to do a cross-reference >>from the Cannon part number to another manufacturer (I think AMP) and >>that's what DK had. > >>John >>---- > >>J. L. Trantham said the following on 07/18/2009 11:58 PM: >>> I am aware of the connection issue but I can't find the connectors. >>> Are they still available or should I change both the chassis >>> connector and mating connector to something that I can find? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >>> On Behalf Of Tom Van Baak >>> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 10:45 PM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] AC cord or connector for 5061A >>> >>> >>>> Does anyone know of a source for a power cord for the 5061A (or >>>> 5061B, >>>> 5065A, etc.)? I am looking for 3 cords or the connector that mates >>>> with AC connector on the back. >>>> >>>> The AC Cord is HP part number 1251-2457 and the connector that mates >>>> with the connector on the back is a Cannon MS3106A-18-22SW. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance. >>>> >>>> Joe >>> >>> See if this helps. >>> >>> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp5065a/conn.htm >>> >>> Best to open the bottom to make sure your unit has pins >>> that match the schematic. >>> >>> /tvb >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. > >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to >>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From cdelect at juno.com Sun Jul 19 19:28:33 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 12:28:33 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5071A cesium tube question Message-ID: <20090719.122833.2536.2.cdelect@juno.com> Hi, I'm testing some 5071A units and have come across a unit that has a tube S/N US38390709 . When I run the profiling software and the status screen comes up it lists the tube type as "non-standard". The other units that have a normal looking serial number (3124A00132 or 3128A00532) come up with tube types of 10890A and 10891A respectively. The measured performance of the US prefix tube indicates a standard tube performance as far as short term stability goes. Anyone have any idea what specs would be different on this tube, or what application is was built for? Thanks! Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click now to find great remedies for hangovers! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTKyJrBgCfaJwe0CjuqO66SQ7GWPrXNbZAgVNM13qxWoHN2lvZRYh6/ From peterawson at earthlink.net Sun Jul 19 20:47:32 2009 From: peterawson at earthlink.net (Pete) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 2009 14:47:32 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] 5071A cesium tube question References: <20090719.122833.2536.2.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: <07046E35362F4D01A051BFFCE64B2C4E@BASE1> Corby, I think the S/N format you're showing was adopted sometime in 1996. If this is correct, then your USxxxxxx tube is a bit newer than the rest. See, http://www.hpmuseum.org/collect.htm#numbers Pete Rawson From yamahoney_lee at hotmail.com Mon Jul 20 00:08:50 2009 From: yamahoney_lee at hotmail.com (lee yamahoney) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 10:08:50 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref Message-ID: Hi All, I have a Z3815A and need another or something just as good, a used unit is preferred. After unsuccessfully searching the net for a Z3815A, I've seen a Hong Kong seller "Yixun" advertising Z3801A units claiming they have been upgraded to 58503A units. Have any of you dealt with this store? If so, how was the experience? Also, any hints on where else could I find one? I noticed some of you previously mentioned a Chinese seller fluke.I, but I couldn't track them down. Thanks in advance, Lee _________________________________________________________________ View photos of singles in your area Click Here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fsearch%2Fsearch%2Easpx%3Fexec%3Dgo%26tp%3Dq%26gc%3D2%26tr%3D1%26lage%3D18%26uage%3D55%26cl%3D14%26sl%3D0%26dist%3D50%26po%3D1%26do%3D2%26trackingid%3D1046138%26r2s%3D1&_t=773166090&_r=Hotmail_Endtext&_m=EXT From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Mon Jul 20 00:20:09 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 01:20:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A63B839.5000207@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Try http://myworld.ebay.com/fluke.l/ (although he doesn't have any Z3801A's listed). I emailed Yixun yesterday to ask exactly what modifications he has done to the Z3801A units he has listed, but haven't received a reply. lee yamahoney wrote: > Hi All, > > I have a Z3815A and need another or something just as good, a used unit is preferred. > After unsuccessfully searching the net for a Z3815A, I've seen a Hong Kong seller "Yixun" advertising Z3801A units claiming they have been upgraded to 58503A units. > Have any of you dealt with this store? If so, how was the experience? > Also, any hints on where else could I find one? I noticed some of you previously mentioned a Chinese seller fluke.I, but I couldn't track them down. > > Thanks in advance, > > Lee > _________________________________________________________________ > View photos of singles in your area Click Here > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fsearch%2Fsearch%2Easpx%3Fexec%3Dgo%26tp%3Dq%26gc%3D2%26tr%3D1%26lage%3D18%26uage%3D55%26cl%3D14%26sl%3D0%26dist%3D50%26po%3D1%26do%3D2%26trackingid%3D1046138%26r2s%3D1&_t=773166090&_r=Hotmail_Endtext&_m=EXT > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From yamahoney_lee at hotmail.com Mon Jul 20 07:00:53 2009 From: yamahoney_lee at hotmail.com (lee yamahoney) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 17:00:53 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref In-Reply-To: <4A63B839.5000207@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> References: <4A63B839.5000207@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: Thanks John. Regards, Lee > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 01:20:09 +0100 > From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref > > Try http://myworld.ebay.com/fluke.l/ (although he doesn't have any > Z3801A's listed). > > I emailed Yixun yesterday to ask exactly what modifications he has done > to the Z3801A units he has listed, but haven't received a reply. > > lee yamahoney wrote: > > Hi All, > > > > I have a Z3815A and need another or something just as good, a used unit is preferred. > > After unsuccessfully searching the net for a Z3815A, I've seen a Hong Kong seller "Yixun" advertising Z3801A units claiming they have been upgraded to 58503A units. > > Have any of you dealt with this store? If so, how was the experience? > > Also, any hints on where else could I find one? I noticed some of you previously mentioned a Chinese seller fluke.I, but I couldn't track them down. > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Lee > > _________________________________________________________________ > > View photos of singles in your area Click Here > > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fsearch%2Fsearch%2Easpx%3Fexec%3Dgo%26tp%3Dq%26gc%3D2%26tr%3D1%26lage%3D18%26uage%3D55%26cl%3D14%26sl%3D0%26dist%3D50%26po%3D1%26do%3D2%26trackingid%3D1046138%26r2s%3D1&_t=773166090&_r=Hotmail_Endtext&_m=EXT > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _________________________________________________________________ Need a new model in your life? Sell your car fast. http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F866383&_t=758314219&_r=carpoint_tagline&_m=EXT From jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk Mon Jul 20 07:08:58 2009 From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk (John May) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 08:08:58 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref In-Reply-To: References: <4A63B839.5000207@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A64180A.40203@impulse.adsl24.co.uk> Reply from Yixun:- **** hi, Z3801A has been upgraded by us, which the feature is the same as 58503A. best regards, Elli **** So I'm none the wiser... lee yamahoney wrote: > Thanks John. > > Regards, > > Lee > >> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 01:20:09 +0100 >> From: jmay at impulse.adsl24.co.uk >> To: time-nuts at febo.com >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS Assisted 10MHz ref >> >> Try http://myworld.ebay.com/fluke.l/ (although he doesn't have any >> Z3801A's listed). >> >> I emailed Yixun yesterday to ask exactly what modifications he has done >> to the Z3801A units he has listed, but haven't received a reply. >> >> lee yamahoney wrote: >>> Hi All, >>> >>> I have a Z3815A and need another or something just as good, a used unit is preferred. >>> After unsuccessfully searching the net for a Z3815A, I've seen a Hong Kong seller "Yixun" advertising Z3801A units claiming they have been upgraded to 58503A units. >>> Have any of you dealt with this store? If so, how was the experience? >>> Also, any hints on where else could I find one? I noticed some of you previously mentioned a Chinese seller fluke.I, but I couldn't track them down. >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> Lee >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> View photos of singles in your area Click Here >>> http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fsearch%2Fsearch%2Easpx%3Fexec%3Dgo%26tp%3Dq%26gc%3D2%26tr%3D1%26lage%3D18%26uage%3D55%26cl%3D14%26sl%3D0%26dist%3D50%26po%3D1%26do%3D2%26trackingid%3D1046138%26r2s%3D1&_t=773166090&_r=Hotmail_Endtext&_m=EXT >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need a new model in your life? Sell your car fast. > http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F866383&_t=758314219&_r=carpoint_tagline&_m=EXT > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From lists at philpem.me.uk Mon Jul 20 08:16:14 2009 From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 09:16:14 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM In-Reply-To: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO> References: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A6427CE.9000903@philpem.me.uk> David C. Partridge wrote: > I have a very poor scan of the 7150 Service Manual. 7150+ is somewhat > different. I was under the impression that the only significant changes were to the front panel legend and the software in the EPROM... > I have sent an email to Emerson (successors of Solartron Mobrey) in the hope > that they may still have this. Manuals Plus has a photocopy at USD30. Actually the successor company is (or at least was) Solartron Analytical (www.solartronanalytical.com). Last time I checked (some time in 2005), they had copies of the maintenance manual available for ?150. > Hoping to find a complete original or a good quality scan. Dave at Artek > Media has the 7150, but not the 7150+. I think I've got the 7150plus service manual *somewhere*, but it's not where it should be (in ~/Manuals/Solartron/7150Plus on my fileserver). They're probably somewhere on my Windows D: drive, but I won't be able to get to that until I reboot (my main machine is currently running Linux). Thanks, -- Phil. lists at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From Leigh at WA5ZNU.org Mon Jul 20 21:43:50 2009 From: Leigh at WA5ZNU.org (Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 14:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] [tapr-announce] More Thunderbolts available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are they now sold out? Leigh/WA5ZNU > You guys are too quick!!! > > I knew I should have taken down the 'sold out' sign BEFORE posting the > message, but I forgot and did it backwards. > > Try it again. > > On Tue, 14 Jul 2009, Sam Carson wrote: > >> john >> The web site says not available >> Sam Carson >> K4SOC >> > > -- > 73, > John, W9DDD > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From demianm_1 at yahoo.com Tue Jul 21 05:46:44 2009 From: demianm_1 at yahoo.com (Demian Martin) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:46:44 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into building one but for $50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have 6 more. Item number 290330439821. Probably a deal for the box alone. Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the family of products here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf Demian Martin From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Jul 21 06:05:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:05:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP In-Reply-To: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> References: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> Message-ID: <4A655A9D.1030509@xtra.co.nz> The age of the design is evident from the performance which falls far short of the state of the art. The irony being that current state of the art distribution amplifier performance was actually possible back when these units were designed using then available components. Bruce Demian Martin wrote: > EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP > I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into building one but for > $50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have 6 more. Item > number 290330439821. Probably a deal for the box alone. > > Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a > Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the family of products > here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf > > Demian Martin > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 21 06:31:40 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:31:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP In-Reply-To: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> References: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> Message-ID: <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 10:46:44PM -0700, Demian Martin wrote: > EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP > I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into building one but for > $50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have 6 more. Item > number 290330439821. Probably a deal for the box alone. If they are all alike and resemble those photos, it appears that they only have PPS distribution modules installed. That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and mount it in one of the blank panels. --msa From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 21 06:49:05 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:49:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP In-Reply-To: <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> References: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C@PDSDesktop> <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> Message-ID: <20090721064905.GA81511@puck.nether.net> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:31:40PM -0700, Majdi S. Abbas wrote: > If they are all alike and resemble those photos, it appears that > they only have PPS distribution modules installed. > > That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some > regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and mount it > in one of the blank panels. Revised, I was looking at the wrong auction: The auction for the -AC4s appear to be frequency distribution; the -AE5 and -AE6 auctions are PPS distribution, and the models with GPS receivers or Rb oscillators are in a seperate auction. --msa From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 21 06:59:46 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:59:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: Message from "Majdi S. Abbas" of "Mon, 20 Jul 2009 23:31:40 PDT." <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> Message-ID: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some > regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and > mount it in one of the blank panels. Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. But where does 28V come from? The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V which straddles both 24V and 28V. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 21 07:11:59 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 00:11:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <20090721071158.GB84559@puck.nether.net> On Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:59:46PM -0700, Hal Murray wrote: > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? I'm not sure, but some ideas come to mind: 28V is a common supply voltage for some RF transistors, particularly amplifiers. 28VDC is also common on aircraft -- including their battery strings. That, or it's related the Phone Company (tm) -- while their strings are at 48V, the buses are typically floated on rectifiers at 54-56V which you could divide to around 28V easily. Alternatively, maybe it's just easy to regulate down to 24, or +/- 12V, accounting for voltage drop across the regulators. --msa From sar10538 at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 07:15:56 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:15:56 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090721063140.GE67066@puck.nether.net> <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907210015g2660ab0fg7f275b6df97699da@mail.gmail.com> 2009/7/21 Hal Murray : > >> ? ? ? That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >> mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. ?For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. ?The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? A nominal 24V lead-acid battery on charge will have a terminal voltage of 27.6V (I believe) so perhaps this is where it comes from. 73, Steve > > The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V > which straddles both 24V and 28V. > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. ?I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From fortime at bellsouth.net Tue Jul 21 07:17:00 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:17:00 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <9C00D12179204E07BC1D864585BB276A@devoffice> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 2:59 AM Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > >> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >> mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? > > The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V > which straddles both 24V and 28V. Hal, Where did you find that Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet ? Any other data on that unit? Phil From namichie at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 08:54:29 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:54:29 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <9C00D12179204E07BC1D864585BB276A@devoffice> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <9C00D12179204E07BC1D864585BB276A@devoffice> Message-ID: <8EE63F3D-4C2C-4BD1-B7C6-ECD37B2C107C@gmail.com> In the early days of radios, there were A and B batteries. A were 2, 4 or 6 volt. B were 90 to 120 volts in glass accumulators. These were taken back to the radio shop to be recharged when flat. This is where the 6.3 volt filament voltage for vacuum tubes came from, the voltage of a 3 cell accumulator on discharge, the A battery. When radios were to be used with motor generator sets, particularly the military, the standard was for 7 volts, the voltage on a 3 cell accumulator on charge , and there as even a series of 7 volt filament valves for military use. As more power was required, particularly to power genemotors, battery banks were doubled and doubled to give 14 volts and then 28 volts. At this stage with genemotors any voltage could be made to order, and voltage was regulated with carbon pile series regulators at the 28 volt level. A genemotor with 28 volt input could produce -150 V for bias and 250V and 600V for seriously powered radio transmitters. Aircraft also came into the picture, also with generator supported accumulators. Car radios used vibrators and transformers to transform 12v to 260 volts. It was not until 1960 onwards that solid state power supplies began to appear. The telephone industry used higher voltages around 50 I think, from accumulators under charge. So that is where these standard voltages came from. Cheers, Neville Michie On 21/07/2009, at 5:17 PM, phil wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" > > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" nuts at febo.com> > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 2:59 AM > Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > > >> >>> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >>> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >>> mount it in one of the blank panels. >> >> Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, >> they come >> conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works >> off 48V. >> >> But where does 28V come from? >> >> The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or >> 21-30V >> which straddles both 24V and 28V. > > Hal, > Where did you find that Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet ? > Any other data on that unit? > Phil > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From phill.r1 at btinternet.com Tue Jul 21 11:04:52 2009 From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:04:52 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: Hal I think you will find that 28 volts DC is standard in many aviation and military mobile equipment power requirements. It is the nominal battery voltage that comes from two 12 volt cells in series that are fully charged. The voltage to run such equipment is not critical (can be less than 28 volts), as you normally charge two series 12 volt cells at 27.6 volts - this is indicative of the nominal voltage of such supplies. Trust that this is the information you are looking for ? Roy Phillips. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:59 AM Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > >> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >> mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? > > The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V > which straddles both 24V and 28V. > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wje at quackers.net Tue Jul 21 11:27:05 2009 From: wje at quackers.net (wje) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:27:05 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module Message-ID: <4A65A609.7050901@quackers.net> I just snagged one of the MFTD distribution amps with MBF (analog) cards. There are two left listed as item 290333003008. Question: I know what all the modules are except the BFM module. I don't get any Google hits on it that say anything useful. Anyone know what this module does? -- Bill Ezell ---------- They said 'Windows or better' so I used Linux. From asmagal at fc.up.pt Tue Jul 21 11:35:29 2009 From: asmagal at fc.up.pt (asmagal at fc.up.pt) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:35:29 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt help Message-ID: <20090721133529.rp5ebl7mu8kwswwo@webmail.fc.up.pt> Hello! Just bought a Tbolt but cannot put it into operation. After a factory reset the Tboltmon gets stuck in Aug 22,1999 and the Self-Survey Progress at 1%. The following warnings in yellow: -Satellite Tracking; -Oscillator Disciplining; -Self-Survey Activity; -Stored Position; -Almanac. All the others green. The active antenna seems to be OK and the SV numbers change slow and randomly in each channel. Please help. Antonio. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Tue Jul 21 11:43:08 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:43:08 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt help In-Reply-To: <20090721133529.rp5ebl7mu8kwswwo@webmail.fc.up.pt> References: <20090721133529.rp5ebl7mu8kwswwo@webmail.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: How long have you waited for the self survey to complete? I can take quite a time. Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of asmagal at fc.up.pt Sent: 21 July 2009 12:35 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt help Hello! Just bought a Tbolt but cannot put it into operation. After a factory reset the Tboltmon gets stuck in Aug 22,1999 and the Self-Survey Progress at 1%. The following warnings in yellow: -Satellite Tracking; -Oscillator Disciplining; -Self-Survey Activity; -Stored Position; -Almanac. All the others green. The active antenna seems to be OK and the SV numbers change slow and randomly in each channel. Please help. Antonio. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- A FCUP utiliza o sistema open source de webmail Horde/IMP (www.horde.org) Visite: http://www.fc.up.pt/ http://info.fc.up.pt/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From lists at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 21 12:01:08 2009 From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:01:08 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM In-Reply-To: <91EC18208F4748D186EEC517C4E6CC19@APOLLO> References: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO> <4A6427CE.9000903@philpem.me.uk> <91EC18208F4748D186EEC517C4E6CC19@APOLLO> Message-ID: <4A65AE04.3050700@philpem.me.uk> David C. Partridge wrote: > As and when you get a chance to look and if you find it I will be > interested. Still arguing with the bootloader on my Windows/Linux box, unfortunately. It'll boot Linux more than happily, but GRUB's "chainloader" isn't passing control over to the XP bootloader properly. Ugh. > There are a few differences on the floating board - different uP and a few > other differences. The uC is an HD637B01V0P which is a one time > programmable uC. Can be replaced with UV erasable HD637B01V0C if you can > find on that is (hen's teeth). Huh. Didn't spot one of those when I last had mine open (to clean up the mess from, and replace an incendiary mains filter), but then again I wasn't looking specifically at the floating board. Though truth be told, if you had a copy of the ROM contents for that thing, you could replace it with an FPGA and a few other bits on a "bodge board". Most of the "other bits" would be related to bootstrapping the FPGA (basically you'd need a serial config ROM, e.g. an Altera EPCS or Xilinx Platform Flash) and running the oscillator. You're probably talking ?5 FPGA + (maybe) a cheap ROM + ?2 worth of 74xx logic (level translators + oscillator) and a PCB. Maybe ?30 total parts, less if you built the PCB yourself. I dumped the main ROM from the controller board *years* ago; it's on Bruce Lane's FTP archive (ftp.bluefeathertech.com) under electronics/testgear/solartron/firmware. That's a 27128, and not hard to replace. What's actually wrong with your 7150+? > If you make an appropriately wired adapter from 40 pin to 28 pin I think you > could probably read the internal ROM as if 27256. Probably. Is it soldered down? The datasheet doesn't mention any form of security / code protection, which is nice... :) Reading out the ROM shouldn't be a problem at all -- replacing the chip on the other hand... -- Phil. lists at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cfharris at erols.com Tue Jul 21 12:19:32 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:19:32 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A65B254.9030009@erols.com> 28V is a nominal voltage, not an exact voltage. It is derived from the system voltage of a 24V battery that is being continuously charged. The typical lead acid battery, as used in vehicles, wants to be charged at a voltage that will quickly return it to full charge after the high starting load has been removed. That requires about 2.3V per cell, which leads to 28V nominal. Your car works this way too, and if you measure the voltage on your battery while the car is running, you will find your 12V is really 13.8 to 14.5V -Chuck Harris Hal Murray wrote: >> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >> mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? > > The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V > which straddles both 24V and 28V. > > From don.key at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 21 12:37:50 2009 From: don.key at ntlworld.com (Don Key) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:37:50 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector In-Reply-To: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8459426.1247578275524.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: If you prefer to use "real" wires, instead of ribbon cable, you could cut up a USB backplate fitted with a 10 way header plug, such as this one sold in the UK by Maplin :- http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=46735 I used a Quad USB backplate fitted with 2 X 10 way headers myself, like this one :- http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=99279 I had to dig out the stopper in the pin 1 position. Also, as there are only 8 wires connected, I moved the connector from pin 7 (ext c-field) to pin 1 (rf o/p). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard W. Solomon" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 2:31 PM Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM LPRO-101 Connector > How do folks like to connect to this RbO ? Do they use a connector ? > Or just solder to the pins ? > If they use a Connector can you tell me the Make & Part Number ? > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > > From msa at latt.net Tue Jul 21 13:47:14 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 06:47:14 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module In-Reply-To: <4A65A609.7050901@quackers.net> References: <4A65A609.7050901@quackers.net> Message-ID: <20090721134714.GC84559@puck.nether.net> On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:27:05AM -0400, wje wrote: > I just snagged one of the MFTD distribution amps with MBF (analog) > cards. There are two left listed as item 290333003008. > > Question: I know what all the modules are except the BFM module. I > don't get any Google hits on it that say anything useful. Anyone > know what this module does? Based on the spec sheet it's just a monitoring/management card. Presumably whatever interface is available via RS-232 will at least tell you when one of the modules has lost sync. --msa From alan.melia at btinternet.com Tue Jul 21 14:11:03 2009 From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 15:11:03 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM References: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO><4A6427CE.9000903@philpem.me.uk><91EC18208F4748D186EEC517C4E6CC19@APOLLO> <4A65AE04.3050700@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <005e01ca0a0d$16aa69c0$0900a8c0@AM> Did either of you guys find a source of the Schaffner input socket at a reasonable price (ie less than twice the cost the 7150 sells for on eBay :-)) ) I have a "spares box full of one that only needs a replacement fiter.....iif I cant get the right one I will bodge something up. I do have a service manual of sorts its usable though I recollect not a brilliant scan. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "David C. Partridge" ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 1:01 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM David C. Partridge wrote: > As and when you get a chance to look and if you find it I will be > interested. Still arguing with the bootloader on my Windows/Linux box, unfortunately. It'll boot Linux more than happily, but GRUB's "chainloader" isn't passing control over to the XP bootloader properly. Ugh. > There are a few differences on the floating board - different uP and a few > other differences. The uC is an HD637B01V0P which is a one time > programmable uC. Can be replaced with UV erasable HD637B01V0C if you can > find on that is (hen's teeth). Huh. Didn't spot one of those when I last had mine open (to clean up the mess from, and replace an incendiary mains filter), but then again I wasn't looking specifically at the floating board. Though truth be told, if you had a copy of the ROM contents for that thing, you could replace it with an FPGA and a few other bits on a "bodge board". Most of the "other bits" would be related to bootstrapping the FPGA (basically you'd need a serial config ROM, e.g. an Altera EPCS or Xilinx Platform Flash) and running the oscillator. You're probably talking ?5 FPGA + (maybe) a cheap ROM + ?2 worth of 74xx logic (level translators + oscillator) and a PCB. Maybe ?30 total parts, less if you built the PCB yourself. I dumped the main ROM from the controller board *years* ago; it's on Bruce Lane's FTP archive (ftp.bluefeathertech.com) under electronics/testgear/solartron/firmware. That's a 27128, and not hard to replace. What's actually wrong with your 7150+? > If you make an appropriately wired adapter from 40 pin to 28 pin I think you > could probably read the internal ROM as if 27256. Probably. Is it soldered down? The datasheet doesn't mention any form of security / code protection, which is nice... :) Reading out the ROM shouldn't be a problem at all -- replacing the chip on the other hand... -- Phil. lists at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 21 14:17:51 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:17:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Isotemp OCXO 127-10 data sheet In-Reply-To: Message from "phil" of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 03:17:00 EDT." <9C00D12179204E07BC1D864585BB276A@devoffice> Message-ID: <20090721141752.0DFC1BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> >> The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 >> or 21-30V which straddles both 24V and 28V. [Ugh, typo: OSCO should have been OCXO.] > Where did you find that Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet ? Any other > data on that unit? I don't remember where I got it. A quick google finds this page: http://w9fz.com/ham/sharedrefs.html It has copies of what I have. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From n3izn at aol.com Tue Jul 21 14:25:41 2009 From: n3izn at aol.com (n3izn at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:25:41 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> Most wireless sites will be 28 volts also. Some are switching to the telco standard of -48 which when measured is actually around -56 volts. One reason for going to a higher voltage is, you can use smaller conductors to get same amount of power out. Not to steal the thread, but any one know why the telephone company choose to use a negative voltage? Where as the positive is referenced to ground? When I was a kid I was told it was because they discovered that the battery terminal would corrode if it was done that way? From rdarlington at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 14:34:49 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:34:49 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Corrosion protection, similar to why the old MG cars ran on a positive ground. On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 8:25 AM, wrote: > Most wireless sites will be 28 volts also. Some are switching to the telco > standard of -48 which when measured is actually around -56 volts. One reason > for going to a higher voltage is, you can use smaller conductors to get same > amount of power out. > > Not to steal the thread, but any one know why the telephone company choose > to use a negative voltage? Where as the positive is referenced to ground? > When I was a kid I was told it was because they discovered that the battery > terminal would corrode if it was done that way? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From lowen at pari.edu Tue Jul 21 14:38:32 2009 From: lowen at pari.edu (Lamar Owen) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:38:32 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] [OT] -48 instead of +48 (was:RE: Where does 28V come from?) In-Reply-To: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1032050.25691248187112726.JavaMail.root@scalix.pari.edu> > n3izn at aol.com Wrote: > Not to steal the thread, but any one know why the telephone company choose to use a negative > voltage? Where as the positive is referenced to ground? When I was a kid I was told it was > because they discovered that the battery terminal would corrode if it was done that way? Negative 48 was chosen for several reasons, but the primary reason a negative potential was chosen was due to negative voltages causing less galvanic corrosion to outside plant; splices and copper wires outside corrode more quickly when at a positive potential relative to ground. -- Lamar Owen Chief Information Officer Pisgah Astronomical Research Institute 1 PARI Drive Rosman, NC 28772 828-862-5554 www.pari.edu _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jfor at quik.com Tue Jul 21 14:39:59 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:39:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1100.12.6.201.204.1248187199.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> The higher voltage is used to get a longer range for the subscriber loop in the pre amplifier days w/o using heavier wire. Remember, there is LOT of copper in a POTS netrork. They probably studied the problem very thoroughly in the late 1800s, trading off cost for safety (electrocution danger). There was no PVC or Teflon, just wax and dry paper. I seem to remember the positive ground was for corrosion protection. -John ============= > Most wireless sites will be 28 volts also. Some are switching to the telco > standard of -48 which when measured is actually around -56 volts. One > reason for going to a higher voltage is, you can use smaller conductors to > get same amount of power out. > > Not to steal the thread, but any one know why the telephone company choose > to use a negative voltage? Where as the positive is referenced to ground? > When I was a kid I was told it was because they discovered that the > battery terminal would corrode if it was done that way? > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Tue Jul 21 14:41:00 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 07:41:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt help In-Reply-To: Message from asmagal@fc.up.pt of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 13:35:29 +0200." <20090721133529.rp5ebl7mu8kwswwo@webmail.fc.up.pt> Message-ID: <20090721144101.1FF0ABCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Just bought a Tbolt but cannot put it into operation. After a factory > reset the Tboltmon gets stuck in Aug 22,1999 and the Self-Survey > Progress at 1%. The following warnings in yellow: How long have you waited? How good is your antenna location? The self survey takes a long time. Several hours would be reasonable. > The active antenna seems to be OK and the SV numbers change slow and > randomly in each channel. If you get SV info, that means that you are seeing some satellites so the antenna is probably not broken. If it hasn't finished by now, you probably need a better location for the antenna. The Progress should go up regularly. It may go up for a while and then stop for a while as the satellites go in/out of good-enough positions. The Self Survey is trying to figure out where your system is located. It averages over many (1000?) samples. It probably only uses "good" ones. You need 4 satellites to determine your location and the time. Sometimes, even if you can see 4, they are not located in a useful pattern. (For example if they are all in a line, you can't tell how far off to the side of that line you are.) After it knows where it is, it changes modes and solves for time only. That allows it to keep working with only 1 satellite. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From mikes at flatsurface.com Tue Jul 21 14:46:25 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 10:46:25 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <8CBD826427C7537-94C-3DCE@webmail-dd03.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20090721144727.23EDB116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 10:25 AM 7/21/2009, n3izn at aol.com wrote... >Not to steal the thread, but any one know why the telephone company >choose to use a negative voltage? Where as the positive is referenced >to ground? When I was a kid I was told it was because they discovered >that the battery terminal would corrode if it was done that way? Using negative voltages on the lines (referenced to ground) reduces corrosion, by making the conductor cathodic. From brooke at pacific.net Tue Jul 21 15:19:36 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:19:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A65DC88.1090201@pacific.net> Hi Hal: Automotive electrical systems are said to be "12 Volts" (or "24 Volts" for military vehicles). That's the voltage of a six cell lead acid battery when it's discharged. It's fairly common to run down a car battery by say using a ham radio while the car is parked. The rated voltage of a rechargeable battery is the discharged value. But the same electrical system when installed in an aircraft is called a "14 Volt" system ("28 Volts" for military aircraft). In aircraft the engine is always running and the generator is always charging the battery. You don't park an airplane in the sky. The 12/14 volt system can see a range of 10 to 15 Volts and the 24/28 volt system will see a range of 20 to 30 Volts. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Hal Murray wrote: >> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >> mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? From true-cal at swbell.net Tue Jul 21 15:33:03 2009 From: true-cal at swbell.net (Don @ True-Cal) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 08:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module In-Reply-To: <20090721134714.GC84559@puck.nether.net> References: <4A65A609.7050901@quackers.net> <20090721134714.GC84559@puck.nether.net> Message-ID: <606584.93377.qm@web81801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am looking at this unit with interest also.?Is?this model intended for 10MHz reference and 10MHz distribution. Can you reply with the spec sheet as an attachment please. ?Regards... Don ________________________________ From: Majdi S. Abbas To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 8:47:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Efratom MFTD and BFM module On Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 07:27:05AM -0400, wje wrote: > I just snagged one of the MFTD distribution amps with MBF (analog) > cards. There are two left listed as item 290333003008. > > Question: I know what all the modules are except the BFM module. I > don't get any Google hits on it that say anything useful. Anyone > know what this module does? ??? Based on the spec sheet it's just a monitoring/management card. Presumably whatever interface is available via RS-232 will at least tell you when one of the modules has lost sync. ??? --msa _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From phill.r1 at btinternet.com Tue Jul 21 15:42:01 2009 From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:42:01 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: abcde ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Phillips" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > Hal > I think you will find that 28 volts DC is standard in many aviation and > military mobile equipment power requirements. It is the nominal battery > voltage that comes from two 12 volt cells in series that are fully > charged. The voltage to run such equipment is not critical (can be less > than 28 volts), as you normally charge two series 12 volt cells at 27.6 > volts - this is indicative of the nominal voltage of such supplies. Trust > that this is the information you are looking for ? > Roy Phillips. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hal Murray" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:59 AM > Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > > >> >>> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >>> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >>> mount it in one of the blank panels. >> >> Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come >> conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off >> 48V. >> >> But where does 28V come from? >> >> The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V >> which straddles both 24V and 28V. >> >> >> -- >> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From mpb45 at clanbaker.org Tue Jul 21 16:19:39 2009 From: mpb45 at clanbaker.org (Michael Baker) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 12:19:39 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolt firmware v 3.0...? Message-ID: <4A65EA9B.20600@clanbaker.org> Hello, TimeNutters-- Apparently, more recent Thunderbolt releases have been encountered with a V 3.0 firmware upgrade. Does anyone have any info on what benefits this might offer...? Thanks-- Mike Baker ----------------------- From g4hup at btinternet.com Tue Jul 21 16:21:31 2009 From: g4hup at btinternet.com (dave powis) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 16:21:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <305478.72183.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Phone companies work off a standard 48v (often referred to as 50v) for exchanges and 'in building' installations. This includes mobile phone operators. But a significant amount of equipment in the mobile network is not in the exchange sites - it is in the BTS (Base Transmitter System) cabinets, where 28v is used. Henace a lot of ex-mobile phone co equipment, such the HP/Symmetricom Z380xx, Lucent RFTG's that were around, and power amplifiers used on 23 and 13cm amateur bands, is normally capable of being powered from either 28V or 48V supplies, since it could be deployed in either situation. 73, Dave, G4HUP ________________________________ From: Roy Phillips To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009 4:42:01 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? abcde ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Phillips" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > Hal > I think you will find that 28 volts DC is standard in many aviation and military mobile equipment power requirements. It is the nominal battery voltage that comes from two 12 volt cells in series that are fully charged. The voltage to run such equipment is not critical (can be less than 28 volts), as you normally charge two series 12 volt cells at 27.6 volts - this is indicative of the nominal voltage of such supplies. Trust that this is the information you are looking for ? > Roy Phillips. > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 7:59 AM > Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > > >> >>> That said, the modules also appear to be powered by 28VDC, add some >>> regulation, you could use the chassis to power the Thunderbolt, and >>> mount it in one of the blank panels. >> >> Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell. For cars/trucks, they come >> conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units. The phone company works off 48V. >> >> But where does 28V come from? >> >> The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's +3, -6 or 21-30V >> which straddles both 24V and 28V. >> >> >> -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From wpxs472 at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 16:52:33 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:52:33 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Spec. Sheet for Ovenaire OSC 49-4-1 Message-ID: Anyone have any info on this oscillator? Google turned up nothing. Thanks. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jul 21 17:38:08 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:38:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <768062.16062.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Others have said it all, but see MIL-STD-704F < http://assist.daps.dla.mil/docimages/A/0000/0003/5901/000000433000_000000038767_BDJDANQSPS.PDF?CFID=32790482&CFTOKEN=123a955522c88712-9E5138E6-1372-548A-D3D5BB2597F5676D&jsessionid=0630a8f7f91d568172ed > or < http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=35901 > for specifications and MIL-HDBK-845 < http://assist.daps.dla.mil/docimages/A/0000/0011/0257/000000482523_000000172526_MROJWPALXS.PDF?CFID=32789554&CFTOKEN=578349968949c304-9E4997F9-1372-548A-D384056DE208ED29&jsessionid=0630a8f7f91d568172ed > or http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=110257 > for more info. 28V needs half the current for the same power. This results in lighter wires, switches etc. The newest standard for cars (Automobiles) is 42V bus with 36V (3x12V) battery standard, they are jumping 28/24V completely. Robert G8RPI. --- On Tue, 21/7/09, Hal Murray wrote: > From: Hal Murray > Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Tuesday, 21 July, 2009, 7:59 AM > > > ??? That said, the modules also appear > to be powered by 28VDC, add some > > regulation, you could use the chassis to power the > Thunderbolt, and > > mount it in one of the blank panels. > > Lead acid batteries are close to 2V per cell.? For > cars/trucks, they come > conviently packaged in 6V and 12V units.? The phone > company works off 48V. > > But where does 28V come from? > > The Isotemp OSCO 127-10 data sheet says 27 V, but that's > +3, -6 or 21-30V > which straddles both 24V and 28V. > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.? > I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Tue Jul 21 17:45:09 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:45:09 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:38:08 GMT." <768062.16062.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1574.1248198309@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <768062.16062.qm at web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, Robert Atkinson write s: >The newest standard for cars (Automobiles) is 42V bus with > 36V (3x12V) battery standard, they are jumping 28/24V completely. That one has run into all sorts of trouble. It was sort of predicated on people with microwave ovens and dishwashers in their hummers and that entire market has more or less evaporated. 42V was chosen over 56V because the latter is "high voltage" according to various countries codes. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Jul 21 18:30:21 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:30:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <1574.1248198309@critter.freebsd.dk> References: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 17:38:08 GMT." <768062.16062.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <1574.1248198309@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp Sent: Tuesday, July 21, 2009 10:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In message <768062.16062.qm at web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, Robert Atkinson write s: >The newest standard for cars (Automobiles) is 42V bus with > 36V (3x12V) battery standard, they are jumping 28/24V completely. That one has run into all sorts of trouble. It was sort of predicated on people with microwave ovens and dishwashers in their hummers and that entire market has more or less evaporated. 42V was chosen over 56V because the latter is "high voltage" according to various countries codes. ---------------------------------------------- Higher voltages are being driven by a couple factors, independent of dishwasher installation.. There is a desire to reduce the wiring harness mass and cost. Higher voltages let you use smaller wires, so you spend less money on copper and insulation. For things like electric motor driven power steering and airconditioning, higher voltages are better (smaller wires, lower mass, better efficiency) and would allow doing away with hydraulic pumps and belt driven compressors. Wires are a lot easier to move around than belts and pulleys, so that makes internal layout easier for the styling folks. There is a also a desire to do point of load switching (which also reduces mass.. fewer wires). Historically, there was a problem getting semiconductor switches with appropriate parameters to do high side switching. A Vds-on of 1 Volt is awfully big in the context of a 12V device (that might actually be running at 9V during cranking). It's less of a problem in the context of a 50V bus. Working against this is that semiconductors sort of start at about 60V ratings. A 42 volt bus (still being a multiple of 6, for historical reasons.. darn those Babylonians) gives you 18V margin against the 60V. (especially if you consider that 14.4V is the actual max voltage for a 12V system... 42=50.4V) And then there's the 50V threshold for "low voltage systems" that Poul mentions. I think the latter is starting to be less important, as more hybrid cars have high voltage battery packs show up in the field and we haven't seen dozens of firefighters electrocuted by inadvertently cutting the wires, or shop technicians dying by putting a screwdriver where they shouldn't. You're still stuck in the cost trade between higher voltage semiconductors and lower copper and actuator costs with higher voltages, and even more, between the cost of things like transient suppression. I'll note that spacecraft have been going to higher voltage buses for this kind of reason (except for science spacecraft, which tend to stick with the venerable 28V avionics power, since it's familiar, and there tends to be a lot of scrounging of surplus and reuse of proven designs). ISS uses, I think, 100V DC as the bus, and commercial comsats use bus voltages of 70-90V. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Tue Jul 21 18:37:04 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:37:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 2009 11:30:21 MST." Message-ID: <1854.1248201424@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , "Lux, James P (337C)" writes: >Higher voltages are being driven by a couple factors, independent >of dishwasher installation.. > >There is a desire to reduce the wiring harness mass and cost. >Higher voltages let you use smaller wires, so you spend less money >on copper and insulation. True, but the car industrys plan was the that dishwasher-in-hummer segment was going to pay the development costs, making "42V electrical" a "high-end-feature", thus making people desire it in lower grade cars, rather than having to actually stuff it down peoples throats. Right now, 42V car are "D.E.A.D" according to my sources in the autoindustry, partly, as you point out, in light of the hybrid/electric market expected to explode, but mostly, because nobody has the money to develop and push the new standard. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From lists at philpem.me.uk Tue Jul 21 18:38:15 2009 From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 19:38:15 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Wanted - Service Manual for Solartron 7150+ DMM In-Reply-To: <005e01ca0a0d$16aa69c0$0900a8c0@AM> References: <198F6D876D07479D968C7DB54A36E12C@APOLLO><4A6427CE.9000903@philpem.me.uk><91EC18208F4748D186EEC517C4E6CC19@APOLLO> <4A65AE04.3050700@philpem.me.uk> <005e01ca0a0d$16aa69c0$0900a8c0@AM> Message-ID: <4A660B17.2050906@philpem.me.uk> Alan Melia wrote: > Did either of you guys find a source of the Schaffner input socket at a > reasonable price (ie less than twice the cost the 7150 sells for on eBay > :-)) ) I have a "spares box full of one that only needs a replacement > fiter.....iif I cant get the right one I will bodge something up. I do have > a service manual of sorts its usable though I recollect not a brilliant > scan. RS. Schaffner FN372-2/21, same as the original part IIRC. ?25.19 plus VAT. P&P is ?4.95 +VAT, so that's ?34.66 in total. About ?10 less than they were a couple of years ago, and less than a third of Farnell's price for essentially the same thing... 7150s seem to be selling for about ?50 on "the Bay" -- you'd still have change out of that for a few of your drink of choice if you went down the "fix it" route :) -- Phil. lists at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Jul 21 20:35:43 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 22:35:43 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: <305478.72183.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <20090721065947.0B0F0BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <305478.72183.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A66269F.2030809@rubidium.dyndns.org> Dave, dave powis wrote: > Phone companies work off a standard 48v (often referred to as 50v) for exchanges and 'in building' installations. This includes mobile phone operators. But a significant amount of equipment in the mobile network is not in the exchange sites - it is in the BTS (Base Transmitter System) cabinets, where 28v is used. Henace a lot of ex-mobile phone co equipment, such the HP/Symmetricom Z380xx, Lucent RFTG's that were around, and power amplifiers used on 23 and 13cm amateur bands, is normally capable of being powered from either 28V or 48V supplies, since it could be deployed in either situation. In all environments I encounter it, it is called 48V and not 50V. There also exists a -60 VDC standard. For Europe, it is standardized as ETSI EN 300 132-2. For US Bellcore (now Telecordia) wrote it into it's NEBS series, but I can't recall the number from the top of my head. The ETSI variant is online, so fetch that. The ETSI people have created another interesting spec, the EN 300 132-3 which is for a 400 VDC system. It avoids the step of DC-AC conversion in UPS systems since most supplies rectifies it anyway. Check it out. :) Cheers, Magnus From w9ddd at tapr.org Tue Jul 21 23:40:48 2009 From: w9ddd at tapr.org (John Koster) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 18:40:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Latest batch of Thunderbolts Message-ID: As I start shipping the latest batch I should point out that the latest batch of power supplies are different from those in the first batch. There are two versions in this batch. The HUP style is documented here: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-ps/hup.htm The XLT style is documented here: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-ps/xlt.htm These pages are also linked to from: http://www.tapr.org/kits-thunder.html -- 73, John, W9DDD From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Wed Jul 22 13:37:48 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:37:48 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Re: Where does 28V come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The other stumbling block is that the EMI emissions from 36(or more) volt systems are sufficiently greater, that passing EMC tests is more a problem, just because of the extra voltage and the resulting transients produced. Some switchgear was also found to be wanting, not in insulation, but the extra arcing is a problem reducing the contact life. In any case, most car makers are now going towards 12V bus systems, where one high(ish) current feed goes round the whole vehicle body, with either superimposed data, or a separate data bus to control all the lights, doors, windows, HVAC, accessories etc etc. With a corresponding weight and cost saving. Accessories are also becoming lower powered and more efficient, reducing the need for power, though you wouldn't know it from some of the sound systems the kids fit these days! If you want High Voltage vehicle electrics in a current production car, look at the (in)famous Prius. 440V 3 phase AC for the traction motor, fed from 200+V batteries! (Not so worried about 50 Volts now?) You could quite literally run a house of the car when you park up, and when the battery gets low, arrange for the engine to automatically start to re-charge it, unless like some you've hooked up an array of solar cells... http://aprs.org/APRS-SPHEV.html for example. Your own personal mobile UPS! (Have to say, some of the modifications you have to wonder about!) Me.... Having none of that, way too difficult and expensive to maintain, but I admire the ingenuity of it all... Regards to All.. Dave Baxter. > -----Original Message----- > 2. Re: Where does 28V come from? (Robert Atkinson) > 3. Re: Where does 28V come from? (Poul-Henning Kamp) > 4. Re: Where does 28V come from? (Lux, James P (337C)) > 5. Re: Where does 28V come from? (Poul-Henning Kamp) > 7. Re: Where does 28V come from? (Magnus Danielson) From wpxs472 at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 15:02:03 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 10:02:03 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking Message-ID: I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the problem is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. From rdarlington at gmail.com Wed Jul 22 15:12:36 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:12:36 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP thought it was some kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 adapter. Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the software. To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it attached, disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then went into device manager and disabled the new device which showed up as some type of mouse. -Bob On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green wrote: > I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran > Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am > using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the > problem > is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a > reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a > standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did > look > at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first > experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some > problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From fortime at bellsouth.net Wed Jul 22 15:56:11 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 11:56:11 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking References: Message-ID: Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to your computer on boot. check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Darlington" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP thought it was some > kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 adapter. > Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the software. > > To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it attached, > disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then went > into device manager and disabled the new device which showed up as some > type > of mouse. > > -Bob > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green wrote: > >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran >> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am >> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the >> problem >> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a >> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a >> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did >> look >> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first >> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some >> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From ernieperes at aol.com Wed Jul 22 16:14:20 2009 From: ernieperes at aol.com (ernieperes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:14:20 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBD8FE9A9551EB-10C0-3354@WEBMAIL-MZ21.sysops.aol.com> Hi, this Windows XP serial port problem is the biggest headache when you run a program which is not directly written into XP environments....... I have an old compi running under WIN 98SE and never got any problem......... just think... when was the Tbolt software developed......... many years before XP was born...... Rgds Ernie. -----Original Message----- From: phil To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to your computer on boot.? check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036? ? ? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Darlington" ? To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" ? Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM? Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking? ? > If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP thought it was some? > kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 adapter.? > Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the software.? >? > To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it attached,? > disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then went? > into device manager and disabled the new device which showed up as some > type? > of mouse.? >? > -Bob? >? > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green wrote:? >? >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran? >> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am? >> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the? >> problem? >> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a? >> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a? >> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did? >> look? >> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first? >> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some? >> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated.? >> _______________________________________________? >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com? >> To unsubscribe, go to? >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts? >> and follow the instructions there.? >>? > _______________________________________________? > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com? > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts? > and follow the instructions there. ? _______________________________________________? time-nuts mailing=2 0list -- time-nuts at febo.com? To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts? and follow the instructions there.? From bjones0 at mindspring.com Wed Jul 22 17:05:07 2009 From: bjones0 at mindspring.com (bjones0 at mindspring.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:05:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking Message-ID: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I had a similar problem with mine (from the "TAPR Group Buy").. it would appear to power up & show a (almost) 10Mhz output, but the serial port was dead.. After much testing it ended up the power supply had gone bad...I was getting the correct voltage difference between the 12v legs but each leg (+/- 12v's & 5v) were off. Once I hooked up a new supply (built from a computer power supply) it works like a champ. -Hrian -----Original Message----- >From: John Green >Sent: Jul 22, 2009 11:02 AM >To: time-nuts at febo.com >Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > >I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran >Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am >using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the problem >is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a >reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a >standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look >at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first >experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some >problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Wed Jul 22 20:24:30 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:24:30 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: > I had a similar problem with mine (from the "TAPR Group Buy").. > it would appear to power up & show a (almost) 10Mhz output, > but the serial port was dead.. After much testing it ended up > the power supply had gone bad...I was getting the correct voltage > difference between the 12v legs but each leg (+/- 12v's & 5v) > were off. Once I hooked up a new supply (built from a computer > power supply) it works like a champ. > > -Hrian If any of you have had this problem, or similar problems, with past or current TBolt group buys please let me know -- I'll take care of it. Contact me offline, tvb at leapsecond.com. The new power supplies that we're using for the current and future group buys appear to be more reliable. /tvb From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Wed Jul 22 20:27:03 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:27:03 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking Message-ID: <8AF3AD8E2D2D481687A33F0FAB31925B@WSOffice> What I have found to be helpful is first, narrow down the problem to the PC OR the Tbolt, Disconnect the Tbolt, Run any of the Tbold monitor programs In whatever operating system you have Open the "View Raw data screen" Enable both the "show received and transmit data" Connect Pin 2 to pin3 at the Tbold end of the serial cable Send any command by way of the monitor, and see if the same text is received. If the PC can not send and receive it's own RS232 data, Fix the PC side, If the PC I/O is working connect the Tbolt and fix it. warren ***************** John Green Wed, 22 Jul 2009 08:03:01 -0700 I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is correct. I am using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the problem is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will try a standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Jul 22 20:53:19 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:53:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: Message from "WarrenS" of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:27:03 PDT." <8AF3AD8E2D2D481687A33F0FAB31925B@WSOffice> Message-ID: <20090722205320.D8A46BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Connect Pin 2 to pin3 at the Tbold end of the serial cable > Send any command by way of the monitor, and see if the same text is received. > If the PC can not send and receive it's own RS232 data, Fix the PC side, > If the PC I/O is working connect the Tbolt and fix it. That's a good suggestion, but you still have to make sure that the cable is correctly crossed or un-crossed. The simple way is to use one of the little gizmos with LEDs. A scope works. So does trial and error. I've gotten in the habit of marking the connectors on my serial cables with a big X if it's a crossover and a || if it isn't. (This may be a wild goose chase if your collection of serial cables and toys is cleaner than mine.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 22 21:08:24 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:08:24 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> You guys are aware, I hope, that the original power supply had totally gonzo color codes... right? They used the same colors as a computer power supply, but black was +5V (IIRC). If you hooked a voltmeter common lead to the black power supply lead, you would read a totally goofy set of readings when you measured the other leads. -Chuck Harris bjones0 at mindspring.com wrote: > I had a similar problem with mine (from the "TAPR Group Buy").. it would appear to power up & show a (almost) 10Mhz > output, but the serial port was dead.. After much testing it ended up the power supply had gone bad...I was getting > the correct voltage difference between the 12v legs but each leg (+/- 12v's & 5v) were off. Once I hooked up a new > supply (built from a computer power supply) it works like a champ. > > -Hrian > > -----Original Message----- >> From: John Green Sent: Jul 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt >> not talking >> >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and ran Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the >> com port and it is correct. I am using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that is what the problem is >> since I have used it to program some Motorola radios that have a reputation for being picky about their serial >> connections. I will try a standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look at the >> manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and >> recall having some problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Wed Jul 22 21:25:02 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:25:02 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> Message-ID: Hey Chuck, I just learnt a new word: Gonzo :-) I has a nice feel to it -- out of interest do you have the etymology? I assume of US/Mexican origin? Does it have any implied meaning other than that which I inferred: i.e. idiotic? Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 22 July 2009 22:08 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking You guys are aware, I hope, that the original power supply had totally gonzo color codes... right? They used the same colors as a computer power supply, but black was +5V (IIRC). If you hooked a voltmeter common lead to the black power supply lead, you would read a totally goofy set of readings when you measured the other leads. -Chuck Harris bjones0 at mindspring.com wrote: > I had a similar problem with mine (from the "TAPR Group Buy").. it > would appear to power up & show a (almost) 10Mhz output, but the > serial port was dead.. After much testing it ended up the power > supply had gone bad...I was getting the correct voltage difference between the 12v legs but each leg (+/- 12v's & 5v) were off. Once I hooked up a new supply (built from a computer power supply) it works like a champ. > > -Hrian > > -----Original Message----- >> From: John Green Sent: Jul 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: >> time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and >> ran Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is >> correct. I am using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe >> that is what the problem is since I have used it to program some >> Motorola radios that have a reputation for being picky about their >> serial connections. I will try a standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having some problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing >> list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list > -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From n3izn at aol.com Wed Jul 22 21:37:46 2009 From: n3izn at aol.com (n3izn at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:37:46 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> Message-ID: <8CBD92BC9A85479-524-44C@Webmail-mg05.sim.aol.com> Gonzo, one of the muppets. But if you go to urbandictionary.com you can get 7 pages of explanations. -----Original Message----- From: David C. Partridge To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 2:25 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking Hey Chuck, I just learnt a new word: Gonzo :-) I has a nice feel to it -- out of interest do you have the etymology? I assume of US/Mexican origin? Does it have any implied meaning other than that which I inferred: i.e. idiotic? Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris Sent: 22 July 2009 22:08 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking You guys are aware, I hope, that the original power supply had totally gonzo color codes... right? They used the same colors as a computer power supply, but black was +5V (IIRC). If you hooked a voltmeter common lead to the black power supply lead, you would read a totally goofy set of readings when you measured the other leads. -Chuck Harris bjones0 at mindspring.com wrote: > I had a similar problem with mine (from the "TAPR Group Buy").. it > would appear to power up & show a (almost) 10Mhz output, but the > serial port was dead.. After much testing it ended up the power > supply had gone bad...I was getting the correct voltage difference between the 12v legs but each leg (+/- 12v's & 5v) were off. Once I hooked up a new supply (built from a computer power supply) it works like a champ. > > -Hrian > > -----Original Message----- >> From: John Green Sent: Jul 22, 2009 11:02 AM To: >> time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up and >> ran Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is >> correct. I am using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe >> that is what the problem is since I have used it to program some >> Motorola radios that have a reputation for being picky about their >> serial connections. I will try a standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I did look at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my first experience with Tbolts. I already hav e a Z3801 and recall having some problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing >> list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > > > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list > -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 22 21:46:26 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:46:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> Message-ID: Hey Chuck, I just learnt a new word: Gonzo :-) I has a nice feel to it -- out of interest do you have the etymology? I assume of US/Mexican origin? Does it have any implied meaning other than that which I inferred: i.e. idiotic? See: Hunter S. Thompson, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" From msa at latt.net Wed Jul 22 21:55:01 2009 From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 14:55:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <8CBD92BC9A85479-524-44C@Webmail-mg05.sim.aol.com> References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> <8CBD92BC9A85479-524-44C@Webmail-mg05.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <20090722215501.GC64258@puck.nether.net> On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 05:37:46PM -0400, n3izn at aol.com wrote: > Gonzo, one of the muppets. But if you go to urbandictionary.com > you can get 7 pages of explanations. This might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rscSG3x1U34 --msa From cfharris at erols.com Wed Jul 22 21:59:47 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:59:47 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: References: <5433527.1248282307634.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4A677FC8.50408@erols.com> Message-ID: <4A678BD3.70206@erols.com> David C. Partridge wrote: > Hey Chuck, I just learnt a new word: Gonzo :-) > > I has a nice feel to it -- out of interest do you have the etymology? I > assume of US/Mexican origin? I couldn't say. My use of the word comes largely from having been a teenager in the '60s. I'm fairly sure it is '60s hippy. > Does it have any implied meaning other than that which I inferred: i.e. > idiotic? You can substitute strange, bizarre or idiotic, if you wish. -Chuck From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Jul 22 22:00:34 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:00:34 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: Message from n3izn@aol.com of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 17:37:46 EDT." <8CBD92BC9A85479-524-44C@Webmail-mg05.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <20090722220035.355B3BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Gonzo, one of the muppets. But if you go to urbandictionary.com you > can get 7 pages of explanations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gonzo_journalism -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de Thu Jul 23 06:22:18 2009 From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:22:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <8CBD8FE9A9551EB-10C0-3354@WEBMAIL-MZ21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9795445616304F4AA9B6664798260075@athlon> Since this problem arises at Windows BOOT time (long before any application software possibly not directly written into XP environments can get active), this is clearly NOT an application program problem. The problem arises ONLY with external serial devices that send serial information on a regular base without being asked for. During the boot process Windows tries to detect what kind of pointing devices are connected to the serial ports and sarches for mice, trackballs ad so on. With devices that always talk Windows thinks it gets an answer and believes that the device is a mouse or a trackball or whatever. The problem first got discussed with GPS receivers that sent NMEA information with a 1 s timebase. One clue is to limit the searched serial ports by a entry in a Windows Ini-file. Best regards Ulrich > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von ernieperes at aol.com > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2009 18:14 > An: time-nuts at febo.com > Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > > > Hi, > > this Windows XP serial port problem is the biggest headache when you > run a program which is not directly written into XP > environments....... I have an old compi running under WIN > 98SE and never got any > problem......... > just think... when was the Tbolt software developed......... > many years > before XP was born...... > > Rgds Ernie. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: phil > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56 pm > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > > > Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to > your computer on boot. > check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036 > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Darlington" > > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > > > If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP > thought it was > some > > kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 > adapter. > > Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the > software. > > > > To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it > attached, > > disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then > went > > into device manager and disabled the > new device which showed up as > some > type > > of mouse. > > > > -Bob > > > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green > wrote: > > > >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up > and ran > >> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is > correct. I > am > >> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that > is what the > >> problem > >> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios > that have a > >> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will > try a > >> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I > did > >> look > >> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my > first > >> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having > some > >> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing=2 > 0list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From chris.cheney at tesco.net Thu Jul 23 07:28:46 2009 From: chris.cheney at tesco.net (Chris Cheney) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:28:46 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <20090722205320.D8A46BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: of "Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:27:03 PDT." <8AF3AD8E2D2D481687A33F0FAB31925B@WSOffice> >, <20090722205320.D8A46BCF2@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A681F3E.7443.77AAC@chris.cheney.tesco.net> > I've gotten in the habit of marking the connectors on my serial cables > with a big X if it's a crossover and a || if it isn't. Male to female cables should be non-crossover, others should be crossover From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 07:31:13 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 19:31:13 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking In-Reply-To: <9795445616304F4AA9B6664798260075@athlon> References: <8CBD8FE9A9551EB-10C0-3354@WEBMAIL-MZ21.sysops.aol.com> <9795445616304F4AA9B6664798260075@athlon> Message-ID: <1231b6a80907230031i6d3fda88lf0c32355514c8dc6@mail.gmail.com> Another clue is to switch to an OS that does not have this problem :-) 2009/7/23 Ulrich Bangert : > Since this problem arises at Windows BOOT time (long before any application software possibly not directly written into XP environments can get active), this is clearly NOT an application program problem. > > The problem arises ONLY with external serial devices that send serial information on a regular base without being asked for. During the boot process Windows tries to detect what kind of pointing devices are connected to the serial ports and sarches for mice, trackballs ad so on. With devices that always talk Windows thinks it gets an answer and believes that the device is a mouse or a trackball or whatever. The problem first got discussed with GPS receivers that sent NMEA information with a 1 s timebase. One clue is to limit the searched serial ports by a entry in a Windows Ini-file. > > Best regards > Ulrich > >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von ernieperes at aol.com >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2009 18:14 >> An: time-nuts at febo.com >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> >> Hi, >> >> this Windows XP serial port problem is the biggest headache when you >> run a program which is not directly written into XP >> environments....... I have an old compi running under WIN >> 98SE and never got any >> problem......... >> just think... when was the Tbolt software developed......... >> many years >> before XP was born...... >> >> Rgds Ernie. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: phil >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56 pm >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> >> Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to >> your computer on boot. >> check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036 >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Darlington" >> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> > If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP >> thought it was >> some >> > kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 >> adapter. >> > Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the >> software. >> > >> > To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it >> attached, >> > disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then >> went >> > into device manager and disabled the >> new device which showed up as >> some > type >> > of mouse. >> > >> > -Bob >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green >> wrote: >> > >> >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up >> and ran >> >> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is >> correct. I >> am >> >> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that >> is what the >> >> problem >> >> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios >> that have a >> >> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will >> try a >> >> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I >> did >> >> look >> >> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my >> first >> >> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having >> some >> >> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >> To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing=2 >> 0list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. From demianm_1 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 23 07:48:37 2009 From: demianm_1 at yahoo.com (Demian Martin) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 00:48:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP - update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E7F0514229944529B4303146598E8BB@DemianM1330> I received the unit. The shipping and packing was very good- no peanuts! The one I got was different from what I expected. It's a 5 MHz unit with 20 outputs. More than I could conceivably need. I looked inside. The supply is actually 25V. The input module has an FPGA for some reason, probably to communicate fault back to a host. The signal is distributed as a low level square wave on the backplane and amplified through a high gain tuned amp before going to the output amps. The outputs are all monitored. I need to figure out the tuned circuit so I can retune it. Would the performance be better if I bypass the input module and drive the output modules with a sine wave? I'm using it as a reference for some not-too-sophisticated counters and generators so the phase noise will be much better than those could benefit from regardless. Demian Martin PDS ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:46:44 -0700 > From: "Demian Martin" > Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION > AMP > To: > Message-ID: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C at PDSDesktop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP > I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into > building one but for > $50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have > 6 more. Item > number 290330439821. Probably a deal for the box alone. > > Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a > Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the > family of products > here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf > > Demian Martin From fortime at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 23 08:05:59 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:05:59 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking References: <9795445616304F4AA9B6664798260075@athlon> Message-ID: <3258DD41D18E4F048C91E8B76045B5CC@devoffice> Ulrich, That program I linked to earlier, microsofts ComDisable, will stop that com port from detecting attached devices on boot for selected ports. Once the system boots there is no issue using the com ports. We used to have that problem with weather equipment attached to com ports. Windows would configure the com port with the data on boot as a mouse and the curser bounced all over the screen. That program just modifies a registry entry. It is executed on a command line. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ulrich Bangert" To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking > Since this problem arises at Windows BOOT time (long before any > application software possibly not directly written into XP environments > can get active), this is clearly NOT an application program problem. > > The problem arises ONLY with external serial devices that send serial > information on a regular base without being asked for. During the boot > process Windows tries to detect what kind of pointing devices are > connected to the serial ports and sarches for mice, trackballs ad so on. > With devices that always talk Windows thinks it gets an answer and > believes that the device is a mouse or a trackball or whatever. The > problem first got discussed with GPS receivers that sent NMEA information > with a 1 s timebase. One clue is to limit the searched serial ports by a > entry in a Windows Ini-file. > > Best regards > Ulrich > >> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von ernieperes at aol.com >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 22. Juli 2009 18:14 >> An: time-nuts at febo.com >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> >> Hi, >> >> this Windows XP serial port problem is the biggest headache when you >> run a program which is not directly written into XP >> environments....... I have an old compi running under WIN >> 98SE and never got any >> problem......... >> just think... when was the Tbolt software developed......... >> many years >> before XP was born...... >> >> Rgds Ernie. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: phil >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> Sent: Wed, Jul 22, 2009 5:56 pm >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> >> Where windoz incorrectly detects a serial device that is connected to >> your computer on boot. >> check this out: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/819036 >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Darlington" >> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 11:12 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Tbolt not talking >> >> > If mine was attached to the system at boot, Windows XP >> thought it was >> some >> > kind of serial mouse -even when I was going through USB/RS-232 >> adapter. >> > Try disconnecting, reboot, then hook it back up and run the >> software. >> > >> > To "fix" Windows so that didn't happen again, I booted with it >> attached, >> > disconnected so it didn't make my mouse cursor jump around, and then >> went >> > into device manager and disabled the >> new device which showed up as >> some > type >> > of mouse. >> > >> > -Bob >> > >> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:02 AM, John Green >> wrote: >> > >> >> I got one of the Chinese Tbolts off eBay and when I powered it up >> and ran >> >> Tboltmon, I got nothing. I checked the com port and it is >> correct. I >> am >> >> using a USB to serial converter but I don't believe that >> is what the >> >> problem >> >> is since I have used it to program some Motorola radios >> that have a >> >> reputation for being picky about their serial connections. I will >> try a >> >> standard serial port but are there other things I should look at? I >> did >> >> look >> >> at the manual but didn't see anything that might help. This is my >> first >> >> experience with Tbolts. I already have a Z3801 and recall having >> some >> >> problems getting it to talk. Any help appreciated. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> >> To unsubscribe, go to >> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing=2 >> 0list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From fortime at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 23 08:29:03 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:29:03 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update References: <6E7F0514229944529B4303146598E8BB@DemianM1330> Message-ID: <318BE624AEE8454481A87D83AD53D0B8@devoffice> Demain, I too bought a couple of that same model but it will be about a week before I have receive them. Did you see that data sheet that Bruce linked to? http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf From fortime at bellsouth.net Thu Jul 23 08:48:03 2009 From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 04:48:03 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCEDISTRIBUTIONAMP - update References: <6E7F0514229944529B4303146598E8BB@DemianM1330> <318BE624AEE8454481A87D83AD53D0B8@devoffice> Message-ID: Demain, Apparently, in my rush I misread that data sheet. If it can't be easily modified, some of the guys were offering a decent distribution board at a reasonable price. I too need a sine wave rather than square. It still makes one heck of a nice housing so nothing is lost. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "phil" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 4:29 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCEDISTRIBUTIONAMP - update > Demain, > I too bought a couple of that same model but it will be about a week > before I have receive them. > > Did you see that data sheet that Bruce linked to? > http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf > From what I understood of the distribution modules (MBF), each module had > 4 different outputs, each module a .1, 1, 5, 10 MHz. > Most of the standards that same seller had appeared to be 5 MHz out so I > expected a 5 meg input. That same data sheet states under MBF options that > most of the modules are 5/10 MHz input but two were dedicated 5 or 10 meg > only. Perhaps we got the 5 meg only ! From what you are saying, each port > on the MBF module is outputting the same thing, strictly distribution. > That's fine, perhaps they meant the MFT would pass .1 to 10 meg. If that's > the case we should still be able to modify the input module. My > application is the same as yours, not a "time-nut" application! > > I though it worth the gamble for the cheap price. > Phil > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Demian Martin" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 3:48 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE > DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update > > >>I received the unit. The shipping and packing was very good- no peanuts! >> >> The one I got was different from what I expected. It's a 5 MHz unit with >> 20 >> outputs. More than I could conceivably need. I looked inside. The supply >> is >> actually 25V. The input module has an FPGA for some reason, probably to >> communicate fault back to a host. The signal is distributed as a low >> level >> square wave on the backplane and amplified through a high gain tuned amp >> before going to the output amps. The outputs are all monitored. >> >> I need to figure out the tuned circuit so I can retune it. Would the >> performance be better if I bypass the input module and drive the output >> modules with a sine wave? I'm using it as a reference for some >> not-too-sophisticated counters and generators so the phase noise will be >> much better than those could benefit from regardless. >> >> Demian Martin >> PDS >> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Message: 2 >>> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 2009 22:46:44 -0700 >>> From: "Demian Martin" >>> Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION >>> AMP >>> To: >>> Message-ID: <9A1668B965254471953484D102B6A96C at PDSDesktop> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>> >>> >>> EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTION AMP >>> I just bought this off eBay. I was about to look into >>> building one but for >>> $50 + $25 shipping I could not justify the effort. They have >>> 6 more. Item >>> number 290330439821. Probably a deal for the box alone. >>> >>> Is there anything I should know about it? I'm planning to mount a >>> Thunderbolt inside it. There is a decent datasheet on the >>> family of products >>> here: http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf >>> >>> Demian Martin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From sam at canardpc.com Thu Jul 23 09:00:18 2009 From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC]) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:00:18 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update In-Reply-To: <318BE624AEE8454481A87D83AD53D0B8@devoffice> References: <6E7F0514229944529B4303146598E8BB@DemianM1330> <318BE624AEE8454481A87D83AD53D0B8@devoffice> Message-ID: <007201ca0b74$00b3b690$021b23b0$@com> Just to let you know I ordered from Bob (the well-known fluke.l on eBay) what seems to be a small distribution amplifier. The PCB features 6 outputs (2-sine, 4-square) with an external input (5-20 MHz), an integrated OCXO and powered with +12V. Priced 68 USD or @ 50 USD without the OCXO. Don't know anything about the performances nor internal construction/chip used, but I'll post some kind of review as soon as I'll got it. Bob sells a case for USD5, but with only 4 outputs. EBay link : http://cpc.cx/iO (Item #290329158017) --------------------- Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER Presse Non Stop - Canard PC http://www.canardpc.com Tel : +33.6.13.73.4003 MSN : sam at x86.fr -----Message d'origine----- De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la part de phil Envoy??: jeudi 23 juillet 2009 10:29 ??: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Objet?: Re: [time-nuts] EFRATOM MFTD-AC4 FREQUENCY REFERENCE DISTRIBUTIONAMP - update Demain, I too bought a couple of that same model but it will be about a week before I have receive them. Did you see that data sheet that Bruce linked to? http://www.freewebs.com/beststuff2u/MFS-207.pdf From wpxs472 at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 13:30:05 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:30:05 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions Message-ID: I opened the mute Tbolt up to check the solder connections on the DB9 and I see it has version 2.2 firmware. How big a deal is it that it doesn't have 3.0? Also, it has the Trimble 37265 OCXO. I understand that there were good and not so good OCXOs used in these. Is this one of the good ones? From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Thu Jul 23 15:13:38 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:13:38 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I opened the mute Tbolt up to check the solder connections on the DB9 and I >see it has version 2.2 firmware. How big a deal is it that it doesn't have >3.0? Also, it has the Trimble 37265 OCXO. I understand that there were good >and not so good OCXOs used in these. Is this one of the good ones? >_______________________________________________ The Oscillator is the same as I have in the TAPR version. Underneath I found a label 'Phase Noise'. I guess this will be found on all OCXO of this version, perhaps indicating a lower phase noise then normal. So that OCXO should be fine! Concerning the differences of the firmware there are already made some remarks here, perhaps other guys can give some more detailed informations. regards Arnold From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 23 15:39:53 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:39:53 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > > >I opened the mute Tbolt up to check the solder connections on > the DB9 and I > >see it has version 2.2 firmware. How big a deal is it that it > doesn't have > >3.0? Also, it has the Trimble 37265 OCXO. I understand that > there were good > >and not so good OCXOs used in these. Is this one of the good ones? > >_______________________________________________ > > The Oscillator is the same as I have in the TAPR version. > Underneath I found > a label 'Phase Noise'. I guess this will be found on all OCXO of > this version, > perhaps indicating a lower phase noise then normal. So that OCXO > should be fine! Now that's interesting. Maybe that's why these units are so much cleaner than the old one I had. Has anyone else removed the OCXO from a TAPR-purchased unit and noticed one of those labels? -- john, KE5FX From GandalfG8 at aol.com Thu Jul 23 15:51:33 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:51:33 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions Message-ID: In a message dated 23/07/2009 16:40:44 GMT Daylight Time, jmiles at pop.net writes: Now that's interesting. Maybe that's why these units are so much cleaner than the old one I had. Has anyone else removed the OCXO from a TAPR-purchased unit and noticed one of those labels? -------------- Didn't that older unit use a different oscillator anyway? I seem to remember from your web page notes that it used a Piezo oscillator but any I've seen since, whether firmware version 2.2 or 3.0 and including TAPR units and units from two Chinese sources a couple of years apart, have used the Trimble 37265 oscillator. Perhaps the Trimble oscillator is generally cleaner than the Piezo one by default? regards Nigel GM8PZR From jmiles at pop.net Thu Jul 23 16:29:46 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:29:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Didn't that older unit use a different oscillator anyway? Yes. Its broadband PN wasn't that bad, but it wasn't very clean/stable at short timescales. Further complicating matters is that my old Thunderbolt probably had 10,000 or more hours on it before I ever even gained the ability to measure its phase noise. Maybe it was better when it was brand new, and maybe the TAPR units will be noisier after 10,000 hours. Age doesn't have much effect on PN in my experience, but that experience is still rather limited. > I seem to remember from your web page notes that it used a Piezo > oscillator > but any I've seen since, whether firmware version 2.2 or 3.0 and > including TAPR units and units from two Chinese sources a couple > of years apart, > have used the Trimble 37265 oscillator. > > Perhaps the Trimble oscillator is generally cleaner than the > Piezo one by > default? That's what I've been assuming all along, but the idea that some of them were hand-selected for PN is new to me. -- john, KE5FX From wpxs472 at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 16:44:28 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:44:28 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Mute Tbolt solved Message-ID: I happened to notice that the 5 volt supply was set at around 4.9 volts, not usually a problem. I upped it to 5.1 and started getting receive data packets. As usual, an operator headspace problem. Thanks for all the help. From GandalfG8 at aol.com Thu Jul 23 16:48:56 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 12:48:56 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions Message-ID: In a message dated 23/07/2009 17:30:40 GMT Daylight Time, jmiles at pop.net writes: That's what I've been assuming all along, but the idea that some of them were hand-selected for PN is new to me. ---------------- I suppose the potentially worrying thing about a cryptic label that just says "phase noise" is that it could be as appropriate to indicate the presence of noise as it could be to indicate a lack of it:-) regards Nigel GM8PZR From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jul 23 17:10:08 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:10:08 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? Message-ID: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> I've ordered a Tbolt and for now will use the PS that comes with it. In the future I will upgrade to a DC supply backed by a battery. What have u' other Tbolt owners done for packaging specially with all the discussion about maintaining a constant temp ? For now, I'm eying my pile of junk/spare parts HP chassis and off to use a friends metal break to remake a new front and back panel the get out the HP coloured paint. My next challenge is I have 10+ instruments to drive with a yet to obtain distribution amp. -pete From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Thu Jul 23 17:09:17 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:09:17 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? In-Reply-To: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> References: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: Mine lives in an old external SCSI box (from an HP DAT24 drive). Dave -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: 23 July 2009 18:10 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? I've ordered a Tbolt and for now will use the PS that comes with it. In the future I will upgrade to a DC supply backed by a battery. What have u' other Tbolt owners done for packaging specially with all the discussion about maintaining a constant temp ? For now, I'm eying my pile of junk/spare parts HP chassis and off to use a friends metal break to remake a new front and back panel the get out the HP coloured paint. My next challenge is I have 10+ instruments to drive with a yet to obtain distribution amp. -pete _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 23 17:37:33 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:37:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? In-Reply-To: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <238561.79939.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, I'm putting mine in a 3U eurocard rack module. Then I can put it in a 19" rack in the workshop or a portable half rack. I've already got an Oncore rx and TVB divider in modules. I pick up surplus kit and re-cycle the hardware. In the past I've built many items into old HP cases. Odd items like 600R attenuators are good because they are of little value. Units with meters are a problem because the meter is a structural part of the front panel. It's not easy to make a new panel, but re-use of existing holes and a bit of automotive body filler backed up with some aluminium tape works well. I hate to admit it but I have a very nice PSU that's built into an HP box that used to ave some weird "degausser" in it........ In my defence I'd not heard of a high performance Caesium tube 20 years ago. Robert G8RPI. --- On Thu, 23/7/09, Pete Lancashire wrote: > From: Pete Lancashire > Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Thursday, 23 July, 2009, 6:10 PM > I've ordered a Tbolt and for now will > use the PS > that comes with it. In the future I will upgrade > to a DC supply backed by a battery. > > What have u' other Tbolt owners done for packaging > specially with all the discussion about maintaining > a constant temp ? > > For now, I'm eying my pile of junk/spare parts > HP chassis and off to use a friends metal break > to remake a new front and back panel the get out > the HP coloured paint. > > My next challenge is I have 10+ instruments to drive > with a yet to obtain distribution amp. > > -pete > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Thu Jul 23 19:33:12 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:33:12 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >That's what I've been assuming all along, but the idea that some of them >were hand-selected for PN is new to me. >---------------- > >I suppose the potentially worrying thing about a cryptic label that just >says "phase noise" is that it could be as appropriate to indicate the >presence of noise as it could be to indicate a lack of it:-) > May be, but does not sound to be very logic to select OCXOs for low noise and then stick the 'low noise' label to the bad parts... Some Pictures annexed Arnold -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 22028 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 19175 bytes Desc: not available URL: From GandalfG8 at aol.com Thu Jul 23 19:49:44 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:49:44 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions Message-ID: In a message dated 23/07/2009 20:36:04 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: May be, but does not sound to be very logic to select OCXOs for low noise and then stick the 'low noise' label to the bad parts... ------------ Hi Arnold Many thanks for the photos, which confirmed what I understood from your previous comments, that the label doesn't say "low noise", it says "phase noise". Whilst my comment was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek, and I agree it's very unlikely they'd use noisier parts in the T'bolt and then advertise the fact, that label as it stands still reminds me more of a fault label than one indicating an attribute. If you were given a box of these oscillators, some with and some without that label, could you be sure, without further information or testing, which ones might have lower phase noise? regards Nigel GM8PZR From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Thu Jul 23 20:10:29 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:10:29 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Nigel, >May be, but does not sound to be very logic to select OCXOs for low noise >and then stick the 'low noise' label to the bad parts... >------------ >Hi Arnold > >Many thanks for the photos, which confirmed what I understood from your >previous comments, that the label doesn't say "low noise", it says "phase >noise". > >Whilst my comment was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek, and I agree >it's very unlikely they'd use noisier parts in the T'bolt and then advertise >the fact, that label as it stands still reminds me more of a fault label >than one indicating an attribute. > >If you were given a box of these oscillators, some with and some without >that label, could you be sure, without further information or testing, which >ones might have lower phase noise? > I understood you very well (I sat about 6 years with my good friend Michael from Portsmouth in our office - practising best british humor... ;-) ) So the next step I will do, open my next TB, but I think it is time now to verify these boxes by real comparative measurements. Unfortunately I do have no characterized OCXO for reference. But there are many Thunderbolts around already, and there are many hi Q references around as well... regards Arnold From w1ksz at earthlink.net Fri Jul 24 00:31:44 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:31:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [time-nuts] SMA-F to BNC-F Cable Needed Message-ID: <51334.1248395504598.JavaMail.root@elwamui-milano.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I received the LPRO-101 today, looks OK, but I'll get to really test it tomorrow. In thinking of how to package it I require an SMA-Female to BNC-Female Cable. The BNC end needs to be a Panel Mount. It need only be a few inches long. Does anyone have such a critter laying about ? I have created searches on that "other" place. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 02:00:01 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 02:00:01 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] SMA-F to BNC-F Cable Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 11 bucks, a couple of weeks, and Ebay item 390046919575 should make you happy... RF pigtail BNC female bulkhad to SMA female nut cable _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From aa8k at comcast.net Fri Jul 24 03:20:58 2009 From: aa8k at comcast.net (Mike Naruta AA8K) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 23:20:58 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? In-Reply-To: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> References: <2dd153bcaa090ca8fa2dcef83d1e5b85.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Message-ID: <4A69289A.5050508@comcast.net> I don't know if my Thunderbolt installation is good, but here is my experiment. The Tbolt is bolted to a 6 mm thick copper plate 10 cm wide and 56 cm long, weighing 3 kg. It's a piece of buss-bar that I bought from the local scrap metal dealer. Silver-plated too. The equipment is in my basement, where the ambient temperature varies only about 5 deg C over the year. The copper plate is fastened to the side of an overhead wooden floor joist, out of the airflow. The Tbolt is powered from the house battery, two six volt golf cart batteries in series with a 20 AH rate of 215. A TAPR HPSDR LPU (Linear Power Unit) provides the +12, +5, and -12 volts for the Tbolt. Mike - AA8K Pete Lancashire wrote: > I've ordered a Tbolt and for now will use the PS > that comes with it. In the future I will upgrade > to a DC supply backed by a battery. > > What have u' other Tbolt owners done for packaging > specially with all the discussion about maintaining > a constant temp ? > > For now, I'm eying my pile of junk/spare parts > HP chassis and off to use a friends metal break > to remake a new front and back panel the get out > the HP coloured paint. > > My next challenge is I have 10+ instruments to drive > with a yet to obtain distribution amp. > > -pete > > From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 04:14:07 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 04:14:07 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Tbolt packaging - suggestions ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did quite a bit of testing of the Tbolt response to ambient temperature. The way I wound up isolating mine from the 1 degree C ambient temperature swings due to air conditioning was to find a corrugated cardboard box a couple of inches bigger than the Tbolt on each side. I placed the Tbolt on the box on a piece of 1" thick foam. I led the leads out of the box and then wrapped the box with aluminium foil. This reduced the temp swings to under 0.08C and kept the internal temperature under 45C (in a 74F ambient environment). I covered the Tbolt power supply with a separate (flameproof) box. (I did not give it the full treatment or use the waffle foam since power supplies can fail rather combustibly). This cut the self-reported swings in the PPS/OSC signaal by a factor 2-3 times. About 1/3 of the temperature induced swings in the PPS and OSC values seem to be due to the power supply. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Fri Jul 24 11:19:51 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:19:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Nigel and the team, I did it and removed the OCXO from a second Thunderbolt - my comments: don't believe! inform yourself, observe, measure and learn. Compare yourself the new pictures with the previous and judge yourself, be careful, we ought to measure it! should we look to the back of more of them? (I am curious to to see other reports...) Attention: Be very careful! When trying to remove the oscillator the hardware can be easily and unrecoverable damaged, the operator must be experienced and know the right technique! regards Arnold On Thu, 23 Jul 2009 22:10:29 +0200, Arnold Tibus wrote: >Hi Nigel, >>May be, but does not sound to be very logic to select OCXOs for low noise >>and then stick the 'low noise' label to the bad parts... >>------------ >>Hi Arnold >> >>Many thanks for the photos, which confirmed what I understood from your >>previous comments, that the label doesn't say "low noise", it says "phase >>noise". >> >>Whilst my comment was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek, and I agree >>it's very unlikely they'd use noisier parts in the T'bolt and then advertise >>the fact, that label as it stands still reminds me more of a fault label >>than one indicating an attribute. >> >>If you were given a box of these oscillators, some with and some without >>that label, could you be sure, without further information or testing, which >>ones might have lower phase noise? >> >I understood you very well (I sat about 6 years with my good friend >Michael from Portsmouth in our office - practising best british humor... ;-) ) >So the next step I will do, open my next TB, but I think it is time now to >verify these boxes by real comparative measurements. >Unfortunately I do have no characterized OCXO for reference. >But there are many Thunderbolts around already, and there are many >hi Q references around as well... >regards >Arnold >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 23215 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 29260 bytes Desc: not available URL: From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 24 13:17:35 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:17:35 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolt firmware v 3.0...? In-Reply-To: <4A65EA9B.20600@clanbaker.org> References: <4A65EA9B.20600@clanbaker.org> Message-ID: <4A69B46F.7070805@rubidium.dyndns.org> Michael Baker wrote: > Hello, TimeNutters-- > > Apparently, more recent Thunderbolt releases have > been encountered with a V 3.0 firmware upgrade. > > Does anyone have any info on what benefits > this might offer...? Is there a firmware upgrade for the Thunderbolts? If so, I'd like to have it. In particular, I'd like to play with the Kalman filter etc. If there is doppler observations or similar, that would be nice too. Cheers, Magnus From stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za Fri Jul 24 13:32:58 2009 From: stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za (Stephan Sandenbergh) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 15:32:58 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD Message-ID: Hi, Many sources and papers refer to the actual DMTD mixer system (and zero-crossing detector etc.). But, I've seen very little on the phase shifter circuits, that are used in conjunction with this system. I was hoping some of you might have experience, and perhaps a circuit example. If it is similar to what is used in audio applications, the single opamp, 0 - 180deg, RC-all pass filter, it is simple. However, I assume there are more to it than that. It seems such is the case with all precision time related things :) Regards, Stephan. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 24 13:56:56 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 06:56:56 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 7/24/09 6:32 AM, "Stephan Sandenbergh" wrote: > Hi, > Many sources and papers refer to the actual DMTD mixer system (and > zero-crossing detector etc.). But, I've seen very little on the phase > shifter circuits, that are used in conjunction with this system. > > I was hoping some of you might have experience, and perhaps a circuit > example. If it is similar to what is used in audio applications, the single > opamp, 0 - 180deg, RC-all pass filter, it is simple. However, I assume there > are more to it than that. It seems such is the case with all precision time > related things :) > For RF in coax, it's probably more like a mechanical line stretcher or trombone line. For 10 MHz there are some variable transformer sorts of schemes. One can also do a 90 degree hybrid with a variable power combiner on the output, or, essentially the equivalent, a I/Q or vector modulator. There are also "linear phase modulators" based on diodes. With anything using an active device, one is going to worry about the usual things: noise, aging, etc. All of the "electronic" phase shifters will require some form of calibration to get better than a few degrees accuracy. In some measurement schemes you don't really care what the phase shift is, just as long as you can get it to quadrature. For the DMTD, aren't you really looking at timing of the beat notes, not the absolute phase? From mpb45 at clanbaker.org Fri Jul 24 14:41:43 2009 From: mpb45 at clanbaker.org (Michael Baker) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:41:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Temperature stabilization of a Thunderbolt Message-ID: <4A69C827.7010008@clanbaker.org> Hello, Time-Nutters-- Mike Naruta's AA8K comments about his experiments to temperature stabilize a Thunderbolt brought to mind my own initial TB temperature stabilization experiments. I placed the TB inside a small 6-pack Styrofoam drink cooler. I left the power supply outside and ran the wires into the TB via a small hole through the inch-thick wall of the insulated container. Initially, I used a laboratory grade quartz thermometer probe to monitor the temperature and once the internal temperature stabilized it stayed fixed to well within a couple of tenths of a degree C. I suppose that one could refine this technique by purchasing a thick-wall Styrofoam cooler for a couple of dollars and cutting small pieces from it to fabricate a small custom sized insulated box just big enough to fit the TB inside of. Mike Baker WA4HFR Gainesville, FL. USA From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 24 14:42:39 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:42:39 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A69C85F.6070607@rubidium.dyndns.org> Lux, James P (337C) wrote: > > > On 7/24/09 6:32 AM, "Stephan Sandenbergh" wrote: > >> Hi, >> Many sources and papers refer to the actual DMTD mixer system (and >> zero-crossing detector etc.). But, I've seen very little on the phase >> shifter circuits, that are used in conjunction with this system. >> >> I was hoping some of you might have experience, and perhaps a circuit >> example. If it is similar to what is used in audio applications, the single >> opamp, 0 - 180deg, RC-all pass filter, it is simple. However, I assume there >> are more to it than that. It seems such is the case with all precision time >> related things :) >> > > For RF in coax, it's probably more like a mechanical line stretcher or > trombone line. For 10 MHz there are some variable transformer sorts of > schemes. > > One can also do a 90 degree hybrid with a variable power combiner on the > output, or, essentially the equivalent, a I/Q or vector modulator. There are > also "linear phase modulators" based on diodes. With anything using an > active device, one is going to worry about the usual things: noise, aging, > etc. > > > All of the "electronic" phase shifters will require some form of > calibration to get better than a few degrees accuracy. In some measurement > schemes you don't really care what the phase shift is, just as long as you > can get it to quadrature. > > For the DMTD, aren't you really looking at timing of the beat notes, not the > absolute phase? For DMTD you use a local oscillator which is detuned to produce a beat frequency of say 10 Hz. That means that you will scan through all phase relationships 10 times every second. For 10 MHz that means about 1 milion different phase-relationships. Now, the phase relationships producing a beat voltage going through zero will choose themselfs. Thus, no need for a phase-shifter when doing DTMD as such. However, it can be wise to shift the second input such that it does not occur neat the same time, since that way time-correlation could be reduced. However, such phase-steps does not need to be made in linear steps, but rather crude steps approximating 0, 90, 180 and 270 degrees will suffice.. however other means to achieve the same thing can be used to create the separation. Cheers, Magnus From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 14:45:42 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:45:42 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolt firmware v 3.0...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have seen at least three versions of the Tbolt firmware (2.12, 2.20, 3.0). They are all pretty much the same. The ver 3.0 actually removed some features (i.e. ECEF position and velocity info). They all output satellite doppler and a (practically unusable) version of the code phase info. Lady Heather shows this in the sat info display. None have support for carrier phase info (Heather mistakenly labeled the code phase column "CARRIER"). These are the "application" firmware version. All had the same rev 10.2 GPS firmware. _________________________________________________________________ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 14:49:01 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 14:49:01 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolt firmware v 3.0...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgot to mention... none of the Tbolts allow control of the GPS Kalman filter. The Thunderbolt-E does allow you to toggle the Kalman filter on/off. You do get access to some of the the disciplining filter parameters (which is probably some form of a Kalman filter). _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Fri Jul 24 15:17:55 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:17:55 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] New Thunderbolt firmware v 3.0...? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A69D0A3.1020403@rubidium.dyndns.org> Mark Sims wrote: > Forgot to mention... none of the Tbolts allow control of the GPS Kalman filter. The Thunderbolt-E does allow you to toggle the Kalman filter on/off. > > You do get access to some of the the disciplining filter parameters (which is probably some form of a Kalman filter). The filter parameters look like more traditional PI-parameters. Very nice as such. Kalman filter processing is a bit of a different animal, but Lady Heather could infact poty-train a Thunderbolt into a form of pseudo-Kalman filter mode by adjusting the filter parameters towards a slower loop as things settle down. Cheers, Magnus From stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za Fri Jul 24 16:10:57 2009 From: stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za (Stephan Sandenbergh) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 18:10:57 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD In-Reply-To: <4A69C85F.6070607@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A69C85F.6070607@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Hi, Thanks for the replies. I agree. One is interested in the timing of beat notes. But, I'm slightly confused now. It might be a language problem on my side. Quoting Howe, Allan and Barnes, 1981, "...adjust the phase so that the two beat frequencies are nominally in phase; this adjustment sets up a nice condition that the noise of the common oscillator tends to cancel..." I can see a few issues here: 1) if the beat frequencies are in phase, there will be a very small time interval between their zero crossings. This might be difficult to measure with accuracy. 2) I agree that reference oscillator noise will cancel to some extend because the measurements are done closer to the same time, which makes the reference oscillator noise better correlated between the start and stop edges. 3) Also, one would like to compare both clkA and clkB at the same time. Not one at t=0 and the other at t=1day to exaggerate a little. I'm not planning to measure atomic standards, or the best OCXO available, so I doubt this will bother me. Other than the above, I agree: it is better to have a greater phase offset between the beat notes. Does my thinking my sense at all? Regards, Stephan. 2009/7/24 Magnus Danielson > Lux, James P (337C) wrote: > >> >> >> On 7/24/09 6:32 AM, "Stephan Sandenbergh" >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> Many sources and papers refer to the actual DMTD mixer system (and >>> zero-crossing detector etc.). But, I've seen very little on the phase >>> shifter circuits, that are used in conjunction with this system. >>> >>> I was hoping some of you might have experience, and perhaps a circuit >>> example. If it is similar to what is used in audio applications, the >>> single >>> opamp, 0 - 180deg, RC-all pass filter, it is simple. However, I assume >>> there >>> are more to it than that. It seems such is the case with all precision >>> time >>> related things :) >>> >>> >> For RF in coax, it's probably more like a mechanical line stretcher or >> trombone line. For 10 MHz there are some variable transformer sorts of >> schemes. >> >> One can also do a 90 degree hybrid with a variable power combiner on the >> output, or, essentially the equivalent, a I/Q or vector modulator. There >> are >> also "linear phase modulators" based on diodes. With anything using an >> active device, one is going to worry about the usual things: noise, aging, >> etc. >> >> >> All of the "electronic" phase shifters will require some form of >> calibration to get better than a few degrees accuracy. In some measurement >> schemes you don't really care what the phase shift is, just as long as you >> can get it to quadrature. >> >> For the DMTD, aren't you really looking at timing of the beat notes, not >> the >> absolute phase? >> > > For DMTD you use a local oscillator which is detuned to produce a beat > frequency of say 10 Hz. That means that you will scan through all phase > relationships 10 times every second. For 10 MHz that means about 1 milion > different phase-relationships. Now, the phase relationships producing a beat > voltage going through zero will choose themselfs. Thus, no need for a > phase-shifter when doing DTMD as such. However, it can be wise to shift the > second input such that it does not occur neat the same time, since that way > time-correlation could be reduced. However, such phase-steps does not need > to be made in linear steps, but rather crude steps approximating 0, 90, 180 > and 270 degrees will suffice.. however other means to achieve the same thing > can be used to create the separation. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 16:50:12 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:50:12 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I recently got in an HP5370A that had been robbed of the ROM card and the oven oscillator power supply card... ah, crap... Swapping the missing cards from a known good unit showed the counter was in otherwise excellent operating condition. The HP5370A firmware is stored on eight 2708 1Kx8 EPROM chips on the ROM card. The firmware is compiled to execute at addresses 7800-7FFF. The system normally does not use address line A15 and the upper and lower halves of the address space are mirrored. (BTW, the system address bus is inverted polarity... important to remember if you are looking at the code). It turns out that the 5370A CPU card has an empty socket for a firmware ROM. This socket supports a 4Kx8 ROM that will appear in the address space at C000-FFFF if switch 3 on the CPU card is turned on. Hmmm, with a little modification it should be possible to install an 8Kx8 EPROM there with a copy of the firmware. Motorola did make the MCM68764 and MCM68766 8kx8 EPROMS in a 24 pin package. They are hard to find (but are on Ebay for 4 bucks each) and most programmers do not support them. The EPROM A12 address line is on a pin tied to +5V on the CPU board socket (pin 21). You could easily patch the board and use the Motorola chip. I have a pile of 27C512 (64Kx8) EPROMS in a 28 pin DIP package. Most of the pins match the CPU board ROM socket connections so I chose to use them. To use the 27C512 chip, first I read in each of the eight 2708 chips from a good 5370A ROM board using a Data I/O Unisite programmer (note that the DIO 2900 and 3900 series programmers don't support 2708's!!!). Next I used the DOS COPY command to concatenate the 8 1Kx8 ROM images into a single 8Kx8 ROM image file (remember to use the /B binary file parameter!): COPY ROM1/B+ROM2/B+ROM3/B+ROM4/B+ROM5/B+ROM6/B+ROM7/B+ROM8/B IMAGE.ROM/B Finally, I concatenated 8 copies of the 8Kx8 image into a 64Kx8 ROM image which I then programmed into the 27C512. You could just put one copy of the 8K ROM image into the upper 8K of the EPROM, but this was easier to do. Lift pins 23 (A11) and 20 (/OE) on the 27C512 so that they won't go into the EPROM socket. Solder a jumper wire between EPROM pins 20 (/OE) and 22 (/CS). Be careful not to short to pin 21. This connects the /CS and /OE pins of the EPROM. Solder a jumper wire between EPROM pins 1,28,27,26. This puts +5V on these pins (A13,A14,A15,VCC). Install the EPROM in the CPU board socket. Pins 1,2,27, and 28 of the EPROM chip should be hanging in the air. Solder a jumper wire between pin 23 of the EPROM chip (A11) and U14-7 on the CPU board (on the photo, I ran this wire to the back of the board and picked up the signal on pin 18 of the 24 pin the EPROM socket) Solder another jumper wire between pin 2 of the EPROM chip (A12) and U16-9 on the CPU board. This connects the CPU address bus A11 and A12 signals to the EPROM. (you should first verify that the CPU board pin numbers mentioned match the revision/layout of your CPU board) Next, you have to modify the CPU board to properly address the new EPROM chip. Cut pin 3 of U6 on the CPU board flush with the board, lift the nub of the pin up so it no longer touches the board (this pin normally connects to A15). Solder a jumper to the lifted pin and pin U16-11 (A13) on the CPU board. This modifies the CPU board so that the CPU external data bus buffer will be disabled and the EPROM chip will be enabled when the external ROM board address space is addressed (i.e. A13 and A14 high instead of A15 and A14 high). Turn on DIP switch 3 on the CPU board to enable the EPROM socket. If all goes well, you should have a 5370A working without the ROM board (just like the 5370B does). _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: HP5370A_CPU_MOD.JPG Type: image/jpeg Size: 43651 bytes Desc: not available URL: From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 16:54:20 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:54:20 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A part needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While on the subject of HP5370A's with missing boards... does anybody have a spare oven oscillator power supply board for the 5370? Yes, it's easy to build one or kludge together the parts... but I have an advanced degree in Lazyness with a minor in "would be nice if the machine looked good". _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From cdelect at juno.com Fri Jul 24 17:28:14 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:28:14 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter Message-ID: <20090724.102814.2436.1.cdelect@juno.com> Stephan, I have a DMTD system that was built by NBS (now NIST) in the early 80s. The coarse phase shifter is made up of ten lengths of miniature coax cable bundled up in a shielded box with toggle switches on the front panel to select the delay used. The LSB is about 2us. It also has a fine adjust that consists of a couple varactors in a phase delay circuit. I have found that with a good quality offset L.O. I can get the precision I need (<1X10-13th at a 1 second interval) without using the fine adjust circuit. As far as the small time interval value I usually start my measurements at around 2 to 4 us delay with the DUT set for a slowly increasing phase shift, The accuracy required depends on what your measuring but with a 10Mhz input and a 1hz beat note +-1us is equal to +-1X10-13th so most counters will work just fine. Just be advised that the us and below digits will be jumping around quite a bit! Also make sure that the delay is adjusted so the counter updates every second, you can be updating every two seconds which nullifies the cancellation of the noise in the L.O. Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Always a good call. Click now to establish your local phone service! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTHbDiki6pTvGTKKCArqOqjNQCdDWO6HMJXAtNrfARisO7WahgNOso/ From w1ksz at earthlink.net Fri Jul 24 17:39:15 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status Message-ID: <24388495.1248457155518.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I fired it up last night and it took about 2 hours to lock. This morning it only took about 20 minutes to lock. I guess I need to stir the electrons a bit more ?? It's sitting there on the counter, with a 1000 sec Gate time and it is as accurate as I can measure (BTW, the counter reference is a GPSDO - TrueTime). Looks like a keeper. 73, Dick, W1KSZ From GandalfG8 at aol.com Fri Jul 24 17:47:16 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:47:16 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions Message-ID: In a message dated 24/07/2009 12:21:04 GMT Daylight Time, Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de writes: Hi Nigel and the team, I did it and removed the OCXO from a second Thunderbolt - my comments: don't believe! inform yourself, observe, measure and learn. Compare yourself the new pictures with the previous and judge yourself, be careful, we ought to measure it! should we look to the back of more of them? (I am curious to to see other reports...) Attention: Be very careful! When trying to remove the oscillator the hardware can be easily and unrecoverable damaged, the operator must be experienced and know the right technique! ----------- Hi Arnold You have more courage than I do, I've got no plans to go anywhere near my Thunderbolts with a soldering iron:-) Unfortunately I can't help with the phase noise measurements either right now but it does seem like an area worthy of further investigation. regards Nigel GM8PZR From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 17:48:39 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:48:39 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A 8.5 digit meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A while back there was some discussion here of the HP 3458A multimeters. There are currently two of them listed on Ebay for good prices. One has a buy-it-now of $2500, says it passes the self test (which on these meters is a pretty good indication all is well). Prices don't get much lower than that... One with an apparently minor power supply problem (smoked tantalum cap ?) just sold for under $1500... darn... _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 24 18:03:36 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:03:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers Message-ID: I'm looking for some amplifiers with adjustable gain (say from 0 to 5) and offset (say +/- 5V) for general benchtop use (e.g. you have some widget you want to test as a replacement, but the original device had different input ranges, and before you go redesign the rest of the circuit..) with at least 10 MHz BW. SRS has something close (SIM983) but it's only 1 MHz BW.. I'm thinking that someone might have run across it in the nuclear instrumentation or experimental physics area? (I looked through the Ortec NIM module listing, but nothing lept out). I've also run across the instrumentation amps used for strain gages, but they're all in the few tens of kHz range. I'd like to avoid cobbling up something with some wideband opamps and pots (which is what we've done in the past..). James Lux, P.E. Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 +1(818)354-2075 phone +1(818)393-6875 fax From stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za Fri Jul 24 18:20:15 2009 From: stephan at rrsg.ee.uct.ac.za (Stephan Sandenbergh) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:20:15 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: <20090724.102814.2436.1.cdelect@juno.com> References: <20090724.102814.2436.1.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: Corby, Thanks - it makes sense. I was suspecting that such a low-frequency phase shifter would be done using cable lengths. However, I can't say that I've got much experience with this kind of thing. I have another question: The rule of thumb would be that the reference oscillator must be 3x more stable than the DUT. I haven't got much to measure my standards against, but I have got 3 identical units. According to literature the separation of variances method provide a reasonable estimate. How well does a measurement, based on separation of variances, compare to one that was done using a sufficiently stable reference? Regards, Stephan. 2009/7/24 Corby Dawson > Stephan, > > I have a DMTD system that was built by NBS (now NIST) in the early 80s. > > The coarse phase shifter is made up of ten lengths of miniature coax > cable bundled up in a shielded box with toggle switches on the front > panel to select the delay used. > > The LSB is about 2us. > > It also has a fine adjust that consists of a couple varactors in a phase > delay circuit. > > I have found that with a good quality offset L.O. I can get the precision > I need (<1X10-13th at a 1 second interval) without using the fine adjust > circuit. > > As far as the small time interval value I usually start my measurements > at around 2 to 4 us delay with the DUT set for a slowly increasing phase > shift, > > The accuracy required depends on what your measuring but with a 10Mhz > input and a 1hz beat note +-1us is equal to +-1X10-13th so most counters > will work just fine. Just be advised that the us and below digits will be > jumping around quite a bit! > > Also make sure that the delay is adjusted so the counter updates every > second, you can be updating every two seconds which nullifies the > cancellation of the noise in the L.O. > > Corby Dawson > ____________________________________________________________ > Always a good call. Click now to establish your local phone service! > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTHbDiki6pTvGTKKCArqOqjNQCdDWO6HMJXAtNrfARisO7WahgNOso/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jfor at quik.com Fri Jul 24 18:35:18 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48104.12.6.201.2.1248460518.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Hi Jim, A couple of thoughts: Tektronix made a TM500 Op-Amp module that would do what you want functionally, but I don't know about the BW. If you are interested, there is a NIM and CAMAC Yahoo Group. It's pretty new. CAMAC is more likely to have such a thing than NIM, since it's a much newer standard. You should also check other vendors, like Canberra. There is a guy in New Mexico (?) that specializes in used modules and cages and has a very extensive web site listing modules. Strain gage stuff is usually very low level and is often set up for full bridges. Wide band is not usually required as the measurements are mostly static or low bandwidth. You might want to look at Instrumentation Amp ICs from Analog Devices or others. They have a gain set resistor, + and - inputs with typically hi-Z and very, very good CMRR. Best, -John =============== > I'm looking for some amplifiers with adjustable gain (say from 0 to 5) and > offset (say +/- 5V) for general benchtop use (e.g. you have some widget > you want to test as a replacement, but the original device had different > input ranges, and before you go redesign the rest of the circuit..) with > at least 10 MHz BW. > > SRS has something close (SIM983) but it's only 1 MHz BW.. > > I'm thinking that someone might have run across it in the nuclear > instrumentation or experimental physics area? (I looked through the Ortec > NIM module listing, but nothing lept out). I've also run across the > instrumentation amps used for strain gages, but they're all in the few > tens of kHz range. > > I'd like to avoid cobbling up something with some wideband opamps and pots > (which is what we've done in the past..). > > > James Lux, P.E. > Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios > Flight Communications Systems Section > Jet Propulsion Laboratory > 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 > Pasadena, CA, 91109 > +1(818)354-2075 phone > +1(818)393-6875 fax > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 24 19:18:21 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:18:21 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions References: Message-ID: > Unfortunately I can't help with the phase noise measurements either right > now but it does seem like an area worthy of further investigation. > > regards > > Nigel > GM8PZR Since I have fancy phase noise systems and references here I ran both ADEV and phase noise measurements on *every* TBolt to make sure the ones that went to TAPR were all good. (Now you know why months go by between TAPR group buys). Typical TAPR Thunderbolt phase noise is about -100 dBc/Hz at 1 Hz, falling to about -150 at 100 Hz, with a floor just above -160 beyond 10 kHz. Variations on this, and spurs, seem to be a function mostly of power supply. For example, see: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm I would be very surprised if *any* TAPR TBolts showed much worse or much better PN performance that what you see at: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/spec-hp.gif I can't make any claim about the untested TBolts that you see on the global surplus market. A number of them have problems and they go on my discard pile. If you have a pair of OCXO that you'd like me to measure here in my lab, contact me offline. I take equal delight in unusually good as well as unusually bad examples. Arnold, I'd be happy to independently test your two samples. Perhaps this would shed light on what that little "phase noise" label means. /tvb http://www.LeapSecond.com From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 19:30:53 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:30:53 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The AM501 op amp module has a 5MHz unity gain bandwidth. It can do +/- 40V/50ma. It has no offset control. The AM502 differential amp has an adjustable bandwidth. You can set the high/low points from 0.1Hz to 1 MHz, Does +/-5V/25ma. Has a built in offset control. Gain from 1 to 100,000. ---------------------------------------- Tektronix made a TM500 Op-Amp module that would do what you want functionally, but I don't know about the BW. _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 24 19:55:11 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 19:55:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <770020.16957.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> I have an EG&G (Now signal recovery) 5185 wideband preamp that would suit. see < http://www.signalrecovery.com/5185page.htm > This is not a solitation to sell mine:-) They do a range of other models. Robert G8RPI. --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Lux, James P (337C) wrote: > From: Lux, James P (337C) > Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Friday, 24 July, 2009, 7:03 PM > I'm looking for some amplifiers with > adjustable gain (say from 0 to 5) and offset (say +/- 5V) > for general benchtop use (e.g. you have some widget you want > to test as a replacement, but the original device had > different input ranges, and before you go redesign the rest > of the circuit..) with at least 10 MHz BW. > > SRS has something close (SIM983) but it's only 1 MHz BW.. > > I'm thinking that someone might have run across it in the > nuclear instrumentation or experimental physics area? (I > looked through the Ortec NIM module listing, but nothing > lept out).? I've also run across the instrumentation > amps used for strain gages, but they're all in the few tens > of kHz range. > > I'd like to avoid cobbling up something with some wideband > opamps and pots (which is what we've done in the past..). > > > James Lux, P.E. > Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios > Flight Communications Systems Section > Jet Propulsion Laboratory > 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 > Pasadena, CA, 91109 > +1(818)354-2075 phone > +1(818)393-6875 fax > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 24 20:00:39 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:00:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: <48104.12.6.201.2.1248460518.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <48104.12.6.201.2.1248460518.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 11:35 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers Hi Jim, A couple of thoughts: Tektronix made a TM500 Op-Amp module that would do what you want functionally, but I don't know about the BW. >>> the venerable (and discontinued) AM502 that plugged into the TM500 series racks. And what I was actually thinking when I set out on this quest, having used them in the 70s. Turns out that they only have 1 MHz BW (the SRS SIM983 is essentially an improved AM502, functionally, and works the same.. shared power supply cage, etc.) If you are interested, there is a NIM and CAMAC Yahoo Group. It's pretty new. CAMAC is more likely to have such a thing than NIM, since it's a much newer standard. You should also check other vendors, like Canberra. There is a guy in New Mexico (?) that specializes in used modules and cages and has a very extensive web site listing modules. >>> oetech.com is the guy. This is for work, so we can buy/rent new, if it exists. I'll check Berkeley Nucleonics and Canberra.. good hint. Strain gage stuff is usually very low level and is often set up for full bridges. Wide band is not usually required as the measurements are mostly static or low bandwidth. >> that's what I noticed. You might want to look at Instrumentation Amp ICs from Analog Devices or others. They have a gain set resistor, + and - inputs with typically hi-Z and very, very good CMRR. >> that's the fallback.. but I wanted to just buy a box with nice knobs, a power supply, etc., rather than engage in a development project. Already got too many little unlabeled boxes with trimpots, some opamps, and unlabeled power connectors.. If someone sold a few thousand dollar box that does this, then I don't have to rummage through the cabinets, reverse engineer the design, etc. Thanks Jim > I'm looking for some amplifiers with adjustable gain (say from 0 to 5) and > offset (say +/- 5V) for general benchtop use (e.g. you have some widget > you want to test as a replacement, but the original device had different > input ranges, and before you go redesign the rest of the circuit..) with > at least 10 MHz BW. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 24 20:03:01 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:03:01 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: <770020.16957.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <770020.16957.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:55 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers I have an EG&G (Now signal recovery) 5185 wideband preamp that would suit. see < http://www.signalrecovery.com/5185page.htm > This is not a solitation to sell mine:-) They do a range of other models. Robert G8RPI. Thanks.. getting closer to what I need.. It has the gain and BW, but not the adjustable offset. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From had at to-way.com Fri Jul 24 20:22:07 2009 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:22:07 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090724202208.D138998D9F8@mail-in05.adhost.com> Mark, While I don't have a need for your mod, I wanted to congratulate you on some "First Class" thinking. Had K7MLR At 09:50 AM 7/24/2009, you wrote: >I recently got in an HP5370A that had been >robbed of the ROM card and the oven oscillator >power supply card... ah, crap... Swapping the >missing cards from a known good unit showed the >counter was in otherwise excellent operating condition. > >The HP5370A firmware is stored on eight 2708 >1Kx8 EPROM chips on the ROM card. The firmware >is compiled to execute at addresses >7800-7FFF. The system normally does not use >address line A15 and the upper and lower halves >of the address space are mirrored. (BTW, the >system address bus is inverted >polarity... important to remember if you are looking at the code). > >It turns out that the 5370A CPU card has an >empty socket for a firmware ROM. This socket >supports a 4Kx8 ROM that will appear in the >address space at C000-FFFF if switch 3 on the >CPU card is turned on. Hmmm, with a little >modification it should be possible to install an >8Kx8 EPROM there with a copy of the firmware. > >Motorola did make the MCM68764 and MCM68766 8kx8 >EPROMS in a 24 pin package. They are hard to >find (but are on Ebay for 4 bucks each) and most >programmers do not support them. The EPROM A12 >address line is on a pin tied to +5V on the CPU >board socket (pin 21). You could easily patch >the board and use the Motorola chip. > >I have a pile of 27C512 (64Kx8) EPROMS in a 28 >pin DIP package. Most of the pins match the >CPU board ROM socket connections so I chose to >use them. To use the 27C512 chip, first I read >in each of the eight 2708 chips from a good >5370A ROM board using a Data I/O Unisite >programmer (note that the DIO 2900 and 3900 >series programmers don't support >2708's!!!). Next I used the DOS COPY command to >concatenate the 8 1Kx8 ROM images into a single >8Kx8 ROM image file (remember to use the /B binary file parameter!): > COPY ROM1/B+ROM2/B+ROM3/B+ROM4/B+ROM5/B+ROM6/B+ROM7/B+ROM8/B IMAGE.ROM/B > >Finally, I concatenated 8 copies of the 8Kx8 >image into a 64Kx8 ROM image which I then >programmed into the 27C512. You could just put >one copy of the 8K ROM image into the upper 8K >of the EPROM, but this was easier to do. > >Lift pins 23 (A11) and 20 (/OE) on the 27C512 so >that they won't go into the EPROM >socket. Solder a jumper wire between EPROM pins >20 (/OE) and 22 (/CS). Be careful not to short >to pin 21. This connects the /CS and /OE pins >of the EPROM. Solder a jumper wire between >EPROM pins 1,28,27,26. This puts +5V on these >pins (A13,A14,A15,VCC). Install the EPROM in >the CPU board socket. Pins 1,2,27, and 28 of >the EPROM chip should be hanging in the air. > >Solder a jumper wire between pin 23 of the EPROM >chip (A11) and U14-7 on the CPU board (on the >photo, I ran this wire to the back of the board >and picked up the signal on pin 18 of the 24 pin >the EPROM socket) Solder another jumper wire >between pin 2 of the EPROM chip (A12) and U16-9 >on the CPU board. This connects the CPU address >bus A11 and A12 signals to the EPROM. (you >should first verify that the CPU board pin >numbers mentioned match the revision/layout of your CPU board) > >Next, you have to modify the CPU board to >properly address the new EPROM chip. Cut pin 3 >of U6 on the CPU board flush with the >board, lift the nub of the pin up so it no >longer touches the board (this pin normally >connects to A15). Solder a jumper to the lifted >pin and pin U16-11 (A13) on the CPU board. This >modifies the CPU board so that the CPU external >data bus buffer will be disabled and the EPROM >chip will be enabled when the external ROM board >address space is addressed (i.e. A13 and A14 >high instead of A15 and A14 high). > >Turn on DIP switch 3 on the CPU board to enable >the EPROM socket. If all goes well, you should >have a 5370A working without the ROM board (just like the 5370B does). > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment >with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. >http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 24 20:35:09 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:35:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <919048.386.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, Have another look at the spec, it has adjustable offset via a multi turn trimmer accessed through a hole in the front panel. I just saw your comment on cost, for $1000 dollars you can have mine, I'll even fit a ten-turn pit and dial for the offset if you wish. You can download the manual from the website. Regards, Robert. --- On Fri, 24/7/09, Lux, James P (337C) wrote: > From: Lux, James P (337C) > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Friday, 24 July, 2009, 9:03 PM > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:55 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers > > > I have an EG&G (Now signal recovery) 5185 wideband > preamp that would suit. > see < http://www.signalrecovery.com/5185page.htm > This is > not a solitation to sell mine:-) They do a range of other > models. > > Robert G8RPI. > > Thanks.. getting closer to what I need.. It has the gain > and BW, but not the adjustable offset. > ? ? ? > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Fri Jul 24 21:06:51 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 23:06:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:18:21 -0700, Tom Van Baak wrote: >> Unfortunately I can't help with the phase noise measurements either right >> now but it does seem like an area worthy of further investigation. >> >> regards >> >> Nigel >> GM8PZR >Since I have fancy phase noise systems and references here >I ran both ADEV and phase noise measurements on *every* >TBolt to make sure the ones that went to TAPR were all good. >(Now you know why months go by between TAPR group buys). >Typical TAPR Thunderbolt phase noise is about -100 dBc/Hz >at 1 Hz, falling to about -150 at 100 Hz, with a floor just above >-160 beyond 10 kHz. Variations on this, and spurs, seem to be >a function mostly of power supply. For example, see: >http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm >I would be very surprised if *any* TAPR TBolts showed much >worse or much better PN performance that what you see at: >http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/spec-hp.gif >I can't make any claim about the untested TBolts that you see >on the global surplus market. A number of them have problems >and they go on my discard pile. >If you have a pair of OCXO that you'd like me to measure here >in my lab, contact me offline. I take equal delight in unusually >good as well as unusually bad examples. Arnold, I'd be happy >to independently test your two samples. Perhaps this would >shed light on what that little "phase noise" label means. >/tvb ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tom, I just got your message and I appreciate your offer very much! I have both OCXOs in front on my table and I thought to dig out the pinout of them (3 pins I don't know yet, I will have to measure at the live card) and then to make a setup with a Dual Mixer Phase Measurement System. But before I am looking to get or build a really very low noise 5 Vdc power supply and as well a stable heater supply. I do mistrust the switching supplies... So it would be great to do the professional measurement - the bad point is the distance between us and the shipment inconvenience, if you were my neighbor I would have already asked you. You have all my confidence. The Idea is very good indeed! The OCXO with the ominous or misunderstandable sticker is from that TB with the not (correct) working temperature measurement system. I did not want to think in this direction like Nigel, but I had already a bit the feeling that perhaps the stability is not so good as I wished, but feeling or believing... not good to That is the box where I (therfore) decided to exchange with the 10811-60158 from Fluke I. The point is that even this one may be not ok either. But all this is not definitive until verified. In contrary, I know well that you did take over a big task to do the job to verify all the items leaving your desk! The second TB from your last shipment I started to run with LH just some hours ago. This one seem in fact to behave somewhat better. But you made already the valid statement about the real measurement with an external reference that only does count... Let me think about a moment, you took me by surprise and I am too tired already this late hour to get something valid out of my brain... Thank you very much for you proposal Tom, regards Arnold From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 24 21:32:39 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:32:39 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For some strange reason, 5370A's with missing ROM boards seem to be more common than one would expect. I now know there are at least two others... Another question to ask is how many 5370's are out there without the oven oscillator option? It might be worthwhile doing a small run of oven oscillator power supply boards. I also noticed that the 5370 drives the oven with unregulated power. I suspect one could get better performance by using a regulated power supply. The 10811 spec is 2.5e-10 for a 10% change in oven voltage so the improvement would not be a whole bunch, but is noticeable. I did a test with a variac and could see the effect over what my normal line voltage daily range is. The oven power is generated via a bridge rectifier / 16V transformer winding which generates a nominal 22V, not much headroom to meet the 20V oscillator spec, but doable... I see another pimp 'yo 5370 project coming. ---------------------------------------- While I don't have a need for your mod... _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 From wpxs472 at gmail.com Fri Jul 24 21:38:57 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 16:38:57 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Is this normal for a Z3801? Message-ID: I got the mute Tbolt talking so I let it sit to do it's self survey. Due to a not so great view of the sky here at work, it took a couple of hours to complete. Afterwards,everything seemed OK. (I am not at all familiar with the Tbolt.) Next, I hooked up my Z3801 to the same antenna and it keeps giving me the same message: Survey aborted due to poor geometry. I even swapped out the trusty Matsushita antenna for one of those Andrew/Motorola antennas you see on cellsites to no avail. Is the Z3801 normally so picky? It was seeing 4 satellites, same as the Tbolt. From sam at canardpc.com Fri Jul 24 22:03:14 2009 From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC]) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 00:03:14 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] tbolt minimum sky view Message-ID: <010601ca0caa$8b3c29f0$a1b47dd0$@com> Just a small question : According to your own setup, could you tell us what is the minimum visible sky area needed to achieve a lock with a tbolt ? Does it lock with a quarter (90?) of the sky visible, or even less ? Thank you. --------------------- Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER Presse Non Stop - Canard PC http://www.canardpc.com Tel : +33.6.13.73.4003 MSN : sam at x86.fr From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 25 00:14:32 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 02:14:32 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD In-Reply-To: References: <4A69C85F.6070607@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A6A4E68.2070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: > Hi, > Thanks for the replies. I agree. One is interested in the timing of beat > notes. > > But, I'm slightly confused now. It might be a language problem on my side. > > Quoting Howe, Allan and Barnes, 1981, "...adjust the phase so that the two > beat frequencies are nominally in phase; this adjustment sets up a nice > condition that the noise of the common oscillator tends to cancel..." > > I can see a few issues here: > > 1) if the beat frequencies are in phase, there will be a very small time > interval between their zero crossings. This might be difficult to measure > with accuracy. No, it is not a particular issue, unless you have problem with isolation. The method to workaround isolation problems that I described is just one possible approach out of many, including designing it out of being an issue. What they are after is that as coincidence in time makes signals from a DTMD perspective correlate better in the regard as supressing the transfer oscillator phase stability. If you keep the coincidence time to say within 100 us much of the low-frequency noise of the transfer osicllator beyond 100 us correlate quite well, so cross-correlation will perform well to supress it where as instabilities with shorter times will not correlate and thus polute the measurement. As time-separation increases, more integrate time-noise of the transfer oscillator will be exposed and induced into the measurement results, for which only time-averaging will help. > 2) I agree that reference oscillator noise will cancel to some extend > because the measurements are done closer to the same time, which makes the > reference oscillator noise better correlated between the start and stop > edges. Correct. > 3) Also, one would like to compare both clkA and clkB at the same time. Not > one at t=0 and the other at t=1day to exaggerate a little. I'm not planning > to measure atomic standards, or the best OCXO available, so I doubt this > will bother me. The closer together they are, the better cross-correlation gain can be achieved. On the other hand, tbe closer the edges is and thus cross-correlation losses may also be found. > Other than the above, I agree: it is better to have a greater phase offset > between the beat notes. > > Does my thinking my sense at all? Sure thing. Cheers, M'agnus From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 00:24:18 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:24:18 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: References: <20090724.102814.2436.1.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: <4A6A50B2.9000603@xtra.co.nz> Stephan For ultra fine phase shifts one can always use NIST's approach of using a splitter (or directional coupler) to sample the OCXO signal then use a mixer as a dc controlled attenuator, attenuate the output with a fixed attenuator and recombine it in quadrature with the original signal. Very small phase shifts at the reference frequency can be achieved in this way. Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: > Corby, > Thanks - it makes sense. I was suspecting that such a low-frequency phase > shifter would be done using cable lengths. However, I can't say that I've > got much experience with this kind of thing. > > I have another question: > > The rule of thumb would be that the reference oscillator must be 3x more > stable than the DUT. I haven't got much to measure my standards against, but > I have got 3 identical units. According to literature the separation of > variances method provide a reasonable estimate. > > How well does a measurement, based on separation of variances, compare to > one that was done using a sufficiently stable reference? > > It works best when all 3 oscillators are compared (pairwise) simultaneously using 3 DMTD systems and 3 time interval counters. It tends to be less useful for longer tau as the 3 oscillators share the same external environment. > Regards, > > Stephan. > > > Bruce > 2009/7/24 Corby Dawson > > >> Stephan, >> >> I have a DMTD system that was built by NBS (now NIST) in the early 80s. >> >> The coarse phase shifter is made up of ten lengths of miniature coax >> cable bundled up in a shielded box with toggle switches on the front >> panel to select the delay used. >> >> The LSB is about 2us. >> >> It also has a fine adjust that consists of a couple varactors in a phase >> delay circuit. >> >> I have found that with a good quality offset L.O. I can get the precision >> I need (<1X10-13th at a 1 second interval) without using the fine adjust >> circuit. >> >> As far as the small time interval value I usually start my measurements >> at around 2 to 4 us delay with the DUT set for a slowly increasing phase >> shift, >> >> The accuracy required depends on what your measuring but with a 10Mhz >> input and a 1hz beat note +-1us is equal to +-1X10-13th so most counters >> will work just fine. Just be advised that the us and below digits will be >> jumping around quite a bit! >> >> Also make sure that the delay is adjusted so the counter updates every >> second, you can be updating every two seconds which nullifies the >> cancellation of the noise in the L.O. >> >> Corby Dawson >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Always a good call. Click now to establish your local phone service! >> >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTHbDiki6pTvGTKKCArqOqjNQCdDWO6HMJXAtNrfARisO7WahgNOso/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 00:32:51 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:32:51 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Phase shifter circuit for DTMD In-Reply-To: <4A6A4E68.2070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A69C85F.6070607@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A6A4E68.2070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A6A52B3.7060301@xtra.co.nz> Magnus Danielson wrote: > Stephan Sandenbergh wrote: >> Hi, >> Thanks for the replies. I agree. One is interested in the timing of beat >> notes. >> >> But, I'm slightly confused now. It might be a language problem on my >> side. >> >> Quoting Howe, Allan and Barnes, 1981, "...adjust the phase so that >> the two >> beat frequencies are nominally in phase; this adjustment sets up a nice >> condition that the noise of the common oscillator tends to cancel..." >> >> I can see a few issues here: >> >> 1) if the beat frequencies are in phase, there will be a very small time >> interval between their zero crossings. This might be difficult to >> measure >> with accuracy. > > No, it is not a particular issue, unless you have problem with > isolation. The method to workaround isolation problems that I > described is just one possible approach out of many, including > designing it out of being an issue. > Most time interval counters have problems with crosstalk if the START and STOP edges are too close together. However one can always insert a suitable length of coax (> 10ns or so delay between the START and STOP inputs should work well with the 5370A/B time interval counters) to delay the STOP signal sufficiently to avoid this problem whilst maintaining near coincidence at the DMTD system outputs. > What they are after is that as coincidence in time makes signals from > a DTMD perspective correlate better in the regard as supressing the > transfer oscillator phase stability. If you keep the coincidence time > to say within 100 us much of the low-frequency noise of the transfer > osicllator beyond 100 us correlate quite well, so cross-correlation > will perform well to supress it where as instabilities with shorter > times will not correlate and thus polute the measurement. As > time-separation increases, more integrate time-noise of the transfer > oscillator will be exposed and induced into the measurement results, > for which only time-averaging will help. > JPL papers on their latest DMTD mixer system use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so to allow some compensation for the phase noise of the offset oscillator to be made when the 2 beat frequency zero crossings aren't coincident. >> 2) I agree that reference oscillator noise will cancel to some extend >> because the measurements are done closer to the same time, which >> makes the >> reference oscillator noise better correlated between the start and stop >> edges. > > Correct. > >> 3) Also, one would like to compare both clkA and clkB at the same >> time. Not >> one at t=0 and the other at t=1day to exaggerate a little. I'm not >> planning >> to measure atomic standards, or the best OCXO available, so I doubt this >> will bother me. > > The closer together they are, the better cross-correlation gain can be > achieved. On the other hand, tbe closer the edges is and thus > cross-correlation losses may also be found. > >> Other than the above, I agree: it is better to have a greater phase >> offset >> between the beat notes. >> >> Does my thinking my sense at all? > > Sure thing. > > Cheers, > M'agnus > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 00:58:27 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:58:27 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: <770020.16957.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A6A58B3.9020506@xtra.co.nz> Lux, James P (337C) wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 12:55 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers > > > I have an EG&G (Now signal recovery) 5185 wideband preamp that would suit. > see < http://www.signalrecovery.com/5185page.htm > This is not a solitation to sell mine:-) They do a range of other models. > > Robert G8RPI. > > Thanks.. getting closer to what I need.. It has the gain and BW, but not the adjustable offset. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Jim The AD830 differential input amplifier has a reasonably high bandwidth (85MHz at unity gain) and can easily be configured for an input dc offset of in the (-5V to +5V) range as its input common mode range is (-12, +12.8). However it only has a linear input range of about 2V and the input noise is around 30nV/rtHz. Gain is set by a pair of resistors. Bruce From EWKehren at aol.com Sat Jul 25 02:37:09 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:37:09 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter Message-ID: On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. In my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 MHz signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it with a counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E 16. Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and trigger error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the two phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of the offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the time difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to go. I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would appreciate any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. Bert Kehren WB5MZJ **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd =JulystepsfooterNO115) From chris.kuethe at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 02:44:01 2009 From: chris.kuethe at gmail.com (Chris Kuethe) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 20:44:01 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] tbolt minimum sky view In-Reply-To: <91981b3e0907241942nd885058k4a56724a7e7fb54d@mail.gmail.com> References: <010601ca0caa$8b3c29f0$a1b47dd0$@com> <91981b3e0907241936v168c3e4fu195f37ba5021e70f@mail.gmail.com> <91981b3e0907241942nd885058k4a56724a7e7fb54d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <91981b3e0907241944t159b9e12xe27835393515a19@mail.gmail.com> I have about a 30x30 degree patch of sky visible - other apartments all around me and I'm on the ground floor - my thunderbolt works fine. It depends on where that patch is... consult a mission planning tool (trimble has one you can download) to figure out how many PRNs you're likely to be able to track. On Jul 24, 2009 3:03 PM, "Samuel D. [x86/CPC]" wrote: Just a small question : According to your own setup, could you tell us what is the minimum visible sky area needed to achieve a lock with a tbolt ? Does it lock with a quarter (90?) of the sky visible, or even less ? Thank you. --------------------- Samuel DEMEULEMEESTER Presse Non Stop - Canard PC http://www.canardpc.com Tel : +33.6.13.73.4003 MSN : sam at x86.fr _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 03:29:45 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:29:45 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6A7C29.2040306@xtra.co.nz> EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. In > my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 MHz > signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 > signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it with a > counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E 16. > Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and trigger > error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the two > phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of the > offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the time > difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to go. > I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the > info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would appreciate > any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more > effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > =JulystepsfooterNO115) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bert With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the zero crossing times. Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more useful rather than just measuring the time differences. The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some way from optimum. The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 or so. There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so with a 100MHz mixer input frequency. The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ ps/C). It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the 2 zero crossing detectors. The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF grounds of the other 2 ports. One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear on the datasheet so one has to measure it. One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum analyser. Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat frequency signal jitter. If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to eliminate the ADC noise. Bruce From analogaficionado at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 05:05:54 2009 From: analogaficionado at gmail.com (Chad Simpson) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:05:54 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <688dcb840907242205xa02a697kd869c9fb37363da8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Jim, Take a look at the LeCroy DA1855A... I think that might be just what you need. 100MHz BW, precision offset generator, gain settings up to 10x (or is it 100x? ... been a while since I've used one). You'll need 1x probes to get the max gain though. - Chad. On Fri, Jul 24, 2009 at 11:03 AM, Lux, James P (337C) < james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote: > I'm looking for some amplifiers with adjustable gain (say from 0 to 5) and > offset (say +/- 5V) for general benchtop use (e.g. you have some widget you > want to test as a replacement, but the original device had different input > ranges, and before you go redesign the rest of the circuit..) with at least > 10 MHz BW. > > SRS has something close (SIM983) but it's only 1 MHz BW.. > > I'm thinking that someone might have run across it in the nuclear > instrumentation or experimental physics area? (I looked through the Ortec > NIM module listing, but nothing lept out). I've also run across the > instrumentation amps used for strain gages, but they're all in the few tens > of kHz range. > > I'd like to avoid cobbling up something with some wideband opamps and pots > (which is what we've done in the past..). > > > James Lux, P.E. > Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios > Flight Communications Systems Section > Jet Propulsion Laboratory > 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 > Pasadena, CA, 91109 > +1(818)354-2075 phone > +1(818)393-6875 fax > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bill at iaxs.net Sat Jul 25 06:46:07 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 01:46:07 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Is this normal for a Z3801? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <963CBBB5EDDA4AB488CDA10CFB6B7201@cyrus> John, I have two Z3801 receivers with two HP cone antennas about 4 feet apart and just below the peak of the shallow roof. I live in a valley with a good view to the west, otherwise surrounded by hills and trees. I used SatStat to raise the horizon to 30 degrees, and had no trouble with the survey. Tell your Z3801 about your real horizon angle. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: John Green Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 4:39 PM I got the mute Tbolt talking so I let it sit to do it's self survey. Due to a not so great view of the sky here at work, it took a couple of hours to complete. Afterwards,everything seemed OK. (I am not at all familiar with the Tbolt.) Next, I hooked up my Z3801 to the same antenna and it keeps giving me the same message: Survey aborted due to poor geometry. I even swapped out the trusty Matsushita antenna for one of those Andrew/Motorola antennas you see on cellsites to no avail. Is the Z3801 normally so picky? It was seeing 4 satellites, same as the Tbolt. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Sat Jul 25 08:22:33 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:22:33 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 24 Jul 2009 21:32:39 GMT." Message-ID: <5060.1248510153@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Mark Sims writes: >I also noticed that the 5370 drives the oven with unregulated power. I sus >pect one could get better performance by using a regulated power supply. Due to the short measurement intervals of the 5370, it is actually pretty insensitive to the reference frequency quality. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From don.key at ntlworld.com Sat Jul 25 08:36:08 2009 From: don.key at ntlworld.com (Don Key) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:36:08 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status In-Reply-To: <24388495.1248457155518.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24388495.1248457155518.JavaMail.root@mswamui-valley.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9D094D4927BF439E85565A49E7BEFAD9@JimPC> I recently bought 2 LPRO-101's. The first worked perfectly, locking up within 5 minutes. The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to China) for a replacement. As I didn't have a heatsink, I didn't want to leave it any longer. Besides, if it doesn't lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? ...Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard W. Solomon" To: Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:39 PM Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status >I fired it up last night and it took about 2 hours to lock. > This morning it only took about 20 minutes to lock. > I guess I need to stir the electrons a bit more ?? > > It's sitting there on the counter, with a 1000 sec Gate time > and it is as accurate as I can measure (BTW, the counter > reference is a GPSDO - TrueTime). > > Looks like a keeper. > > 73, Dick, W1KSZ > > > From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 25 12:15:34 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 12:15:34 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you are measuring frequency, the accuracy of the results are totally dependent upon the accuracy of the reference frequency. The 10811 can move 2.5e-10 with a 10% change in line voltage (which happens quite often around here as quite a few zillion watts of air conditioning cycle on and off over a day) ----------------------- Due to the short measurement intervals of the 5370, it is actually pretty insensitive to the reference frequency quality. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From mikes at flatsurface.com Sat Jul 25 13:06:39 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:06:39 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090725130756.BF1A3116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 08:15 AM 7/25/2009, Mark Sims wrote... >The 10811 can move 2.5e-10 with a 10% change in line voltage In the 5270A/B specs, HP says the 10544/10811 is <1.0x10^-10 for +-10% change (i.e. 20% change) in line voltage. From EWKehren at aol.com Sat Jul 25 13:09:29 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:09:29 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter Message-ID: Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer system can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $ 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the programming of two u processors and the software that need to be written for the computer. How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen as a joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual channel counter with each mixer, focusing on a zero crossing detector that is part of the counter section and isolated from the mixer/filter/amplifier it should be possible to realize better than 10 E 14. The counters would count 100 MHz. $200 would cover 7 PC boars, 7 Alu enclosures and all electronic components if 100 units get build. The price break will be in the PC board cost. Offset oscillator obviously would not be included. As you pointed out there is room for improvement on the zero detector. I have done the counters on an other project and if there is interest I will gladly share my information and thoughts. Bert Kehren In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. In > my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 MHz > signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 > signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it with a > counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E 16. > Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and trigger > error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the two > phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of the > offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the time > difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to go. > I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the > info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would appreciate > any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more > effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > =JulystepsfooterNO115) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bert With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the zero crossing times. Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more useful rather than just measuring the time differences. The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some way from optimum. The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 or so. There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so with a 100MHz mixer input frequency. The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ ps/C). It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the 2 zero crossing detectors. The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF grounds of the other 2 ports. One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear on the datasheet so one has to measure it. One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum analyser. Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat frequency signal jitter. If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to eliminate the ADC noise. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/ 100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From EWKehren at aol.com Sat Jul 25 13:17:38 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:17:38 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter Message-ID: One more comment the phase shifter is not included in that calculation. Bert Kehren In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. In > my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 MHz > signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 > signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it with a > counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E 16. > Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and trigger > error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the two > phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of the > offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the time > difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to go. > I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the > info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would appreciate > any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more > effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. > Bert Kehren WB5MZJ > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > =JulystepsfooterNO115) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Bert With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the zero crossing times. Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more useful rather than just measuring the time differences. The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some way from optimum. The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 or so. There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so with a 100MHz mixer input frequency. The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ ps/C). It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the 2 zero crossing detectors. The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF grounds of the other 2 ports. One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear on the datasheet so one has to measure it. One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum analyser. Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat frequency signal jitter. If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to eliminate the ADC noise. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=ht tp://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=JulyExcfooterNO62) From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 13:18:17 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:18:17 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6B0619.5040304@xtra.co.nz> Mark Sims wrote: > If you are measuring frequency, the accuracy of the results are totally dependent upon the accuracy of the reference frequency. The 10811 can move 2.5e-10 with a 10% change in line voltage (which happens quite often around here as quite a few zillion watts of air conditioning cycle on and off over a day) > > ----------------------- > Due to the short measurement intervals of the 5370, it is actually > pretty insensitive to the reference frequency quality. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. > http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Such a frequency shift corresponds to about 2.5ns error in a 10s time interval (5370 maximum range). This is much greater than the 25ps resolution and 100ps maximum differential nonlinearity spec for the 5370. For time intervals greater than 100ms or so such frequency changes will significantly degrade the performance. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 13:36:54 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:36:54 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6B0A76.3080808@xtra.co.nz> Bert If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to use an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector (ZCD) output and the counter input to minimise potential low frequency ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated from each other. A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to achieve with a good ZCD design. Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures. Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz. The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages of the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco. Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing detector built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system. The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the offset frequency. The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant jitter. To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and clamping to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose other than increasing the noise by more than necessary. Bruce EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer system > can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $ > 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the programming of > two u processors and the software that need to be written for the computer. > How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen as a > joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual channel counter > with each mixer, focusing on a zero crossing detector that is part of the > counter section and isolated from the mixer/filter/amplifier it should be > possible to realize better than 10 E 14. The counters would count 100 MHz. > $200 would cover 7 PC boars, 7 Alu enclosures and all electronic components > if 100 units get build. The price break will be in the PC board cost. > Offset oscillator obviously would not be included. > As you pointed out there is room for improvement on the zero detector. I > have done the counters on an other project and if there is interest I will > gladly share my information and thoughts. > Bert Kehren > > > In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: > > EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > >> On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. >> > In > >> my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 >> > MHz > >> signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 >> signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it >> > with a > >> counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E >> > 16. > >> Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and >> > trigger > >> error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the >> > two > >> phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of >> > the > >> offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the >> > time > >> difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to >> > go. > >> I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the >> > > >> info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would >> > appreciate > >> any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more >> effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. >> Bert Kehren WB5MZJ >> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 >> > easy > >> steps! >> >> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > >> =JulystepsfooterNO115) >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > Bert > > With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the > time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. > The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew > rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the > zero crossing times. > Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more > useful rather than just measuring the time differences. > > The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver > Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published > until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some > way from optimum. > The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. > JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat > frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 or > so. > There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so with > a 100MHz mixer input frequency. > The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase > shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ > ps/C). > It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the > 2 zero crossing detectors. > The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF > grounds of the other 2 ports. > One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region > in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. > Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear > on the datasheet so one has to measure it. > One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum > analyser. > Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm > resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat > frequency signal jitter. > > If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to > be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to > measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of > the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero > crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 > or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to > eliminate the ADC noise. > > Bruce > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy > Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/ > 100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul > yExcfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Jul 25 14:06:54 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:06:54 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another weakness of the 5370 oven oscillator power supply is the use of a simple zener diode for the oscillator power regulator. The 10811 spec shows a 2e-10 change in freq with a 1% change in oscillator voltage. Another surprising 10811 spec is the 2e-9 change with 50,000 feet of altitude (call it a 90% change in air pressure, probably more). Barometric pressure here can easily change from say 29 to 31 inches of mercury (call it 5%). If the oscillator sensitivity to air pressure is linear, one could see another 1e-10 change in freq with the weather. Plus the thing is also rather sensitive to humidity (1e-9 over 95% relative humidity). Also a 6e-11 change per degree C. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports From joegwinn at comcast.net Sat Jul 25 14:26:01 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:26:01 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing Message-ID: It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers and two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO signals provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four ADCs will be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the complex complement of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so long as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical argument function of this exponential is the desired phase. In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and will heavily average the resulting stream of products. Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance compared to the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily implemented in a DSP or FPGA. Joe Gwinn From wa1zms at att.net Sat Jul 25 14:29:58 2009 From: wa1zms at att.net (wa1zms) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:29:58 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: <4A6B0A76.3080808@xtra.co.nz> References: <4A6B0A76.3080808@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <32F10A68-A2AB-4516-AE84-F2D6F6CFFA4E@att.net> bruce- do you have a favorite ZCD schematic that you can share? many thanks in advance! -Brian, WA1ZMS On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Bert > > If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to > use > an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector > (ZCD) output and the counter input to minimise potential low frequency > ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit > the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated > from each other. > > A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to > achieve with a good ZCD design. > Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the > stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures. > Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz. > The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages > of > the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco. > > Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing > detector > built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system. > > The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the > offset > frequency. > The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the > noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant > jitter. > To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of > slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and > clamping > to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As > long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is > driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose > other than increasing the noise by more than necessary. > > Bruce > > EWKehren at aol.com wrote: >> Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer >> system >> can be built including five counters for a material cost of less >> than $ >> 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the >> programming of >> two u processors and the software that need to be written for the >> computer. >> How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it >> happen as a >> joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual >> channel counter From EWKehren at aol.com Sat Jul 25 14:34:06 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:34:06 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter Message-ID: Bruce, what I envision is two identical channels made up of offset isolation amplifier, mixer/filter/amplifier and zero detector/counter module. The Isolation and Mixer modules would be copies of the NIST circuit using later components. The two counter modules talk to a separate counter/u processor through opto isolators. The fifth counter is part of that module and uses info from the two counter modules to also determine the phase difference between the two oscillators being monitored. This seventh module also handles the USB interface. If you want to I will redraw the block diagram and a detailed circuit of the counters and send it to you direct. Bert In a message dated 7/25/2009 9:37:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: Bert If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to use an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector (ZCD) output and the counter input to minimize potential low frequency ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated from each other. A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to achieve with a good ZCD design. Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures. Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz. The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages of the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco. Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing detector built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system. The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the offset frequency. The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant jitter. To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and clamping to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose other than increasing the noise by more than necessary. Bruce EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer system > can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $ > 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the programming of > two u processors and the software that need to be written for the computer. > How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen as a > joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual channel counter > with each mixer, focusing on a zero crossing detector that is part of the > counter section and isolated from the mixer/filter/amplifier it should be > possible to realize better than 10 E 14. The counters would count 100 MHz. > $200 would cover 7 PC boars, 7 Alu enclosures and all electronic components > if 100 units get build. The price break will be in the PC board cost. > Offset oscillator obviously would not be included. > As you pointed out there is room for improvement on the zero detector. I > have done the counters on an other project and if there is interest I will > gladly share my information and thoughts. > Bert Kehren > > > In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: > > EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > >> On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the following. >> > In > >> my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 >> > MHz > >> signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 >> signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting it >> > with a > >> counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 E >> > 16. > >> Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and >> > trigger > >> error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want the >> > two > >> phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of >> > the > >> offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring the >> > time > >> difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to >> > go. > >> I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for the >> > > >> info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would >> > appreciate > >> any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more >> effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. >> Bert Kehren WB5MZJ >> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 >> > easy > >> steps! >> >> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > >> =JulystepsfooterNO115) >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > Bert > > With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the > time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. > The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew > rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the > zero crossing times. > Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more > useful rather than just measuring the time differences. > > The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver > Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published > until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some > way from optimum. > The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. > JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat > frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 or > so. > There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so with > a 100MHz mixer input frequency. > The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase > shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ > ps/C). > It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the > 2 zero crossing detectors. > The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF > grounds of the other 2 ports. > One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region > in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. > Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear > on the datasheet so one has to measure it. > One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum > analyser. > Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm > resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat > frequency signal jitter. > > If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to > be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to > measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of > the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero > crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 > or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to > eliminate the ADC noise. > > Bruce > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy > Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/ > 100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul > yExcfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul yExcfooterNO62) From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 25 14:38:23 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:38:23 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6B18DF.3040105@rubidium.dyndns.org> Joe Gwinn wrote: > It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain > approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers and > two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO signals > provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four ADCs will > be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. > > The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time > delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the > complex complement of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase > difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so long > as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical argument > function of this exponential is the desired phase. > > In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and will > heavily average the resulting stream of products. > > Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance compared to > the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average > approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily implemented > in a DSP or FPGA. The time-difference between the two sampling points could be minimized in such an approach as the phase could be shifted arbitrarilly in the post-processing such that the effective phase difference between the two chains reduces to near zero and hence the correlation between the channels for the transfer oscillator would be better in phase and cancel the transfer oscillator out better. The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a phase adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back for proper phase-trace. An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce suggested. Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a FPGA frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very reasnoble rates, just as for a GPS receiver. Cheers, Magnus From jmiles at pop.net Sat Jul 25 16:00:50 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 09:00:50 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5370A/B measurement floors (was Re: Fixing an HP 5370A...) In-Reply-To: <4A6B0619.5040304@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: It's worth noting that the 5370's accuracy is supposedly never better than 1 ns (specifically, +/- resolution +/- timebase*interval +/- trigger jitter +/- 1 ns systematic). We tend to rely on it to do much better than that -- or at least we all count on the "1 ns systematic" to look like random noise in the long run -- but it still bears remembering, because that systematic error swamps any other effects in the short term. Some time ago John A. plotted his 5370's residual floor, about halfway down the page at http://www.febo.com/pages/hp5370b/ . He fed a 1-pps signal into a T-connector at the START jack, followed by 35 ns of coax to the STOP jack. I ran a similar test recently, but with a TADD-2 1-pps divider driving the START jack and a similar amount of coax driving the STOP jack from the 10 MHz input side of the TADD-2, trying to get an idea of the composite floor for a typical measurement using the TADD-2, the 5370B, and a bunch of coax. The 5370B was driven by a Thunderbolt for this test. My results (attached) were a bit worse than John's, but with a nearly identical slope for the duration of his test. I left it running for a few days, and saw some significant flattening on timescales of 3-4 hours that matched my air conditioning cycle time (as reported by the shop thermometer, aka Lady Heather.) Based on this graph I don't consider temperature variations to be a grave concern above floors of 1E-14, or conversely at timescales less than an hour or two, but they should definitely be minimized or eliminated for HP 5370A/B measurements below that. I still need to try variations of this test with the internal reference, with and without the TADD-2 between the START and STOP jacks, and with 10-second and 100-second means on the 5370B. Clearly it would be good to achieve better than 1E-10 accuracy at t=1s, since most good crystal oscillators are better than that. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:18 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board > Such a frequency shift corresponds to about 2.5ns error in a 10s time interval (5370 maximum range). This is much greater than the 25ps resolution and 100ps maximum differential nonlinearity spec for the 5370. For time intervals greater than 100ms or so such frequency changes will significantly degrade the performance. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: resid_floor.gif Type: image/gif Size: 22399 bytes Desc: not available URL: From w1ksz at earthlink.net Sat Jul 25 17:09:45 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:09:45 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status Message-ID: <13205406.1248541785948.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> At first I did not monitor the Lock Voltage, just the frequency. After it finally locked (~ 2 hours) the case temperature was not that hot. I could leave my hand on it. The frequency did vary about 10 MHz (+/- 200 Hz). The second time I did monitor the Lock Voltage. It was stable (~4.6v) until Lock, when it went to Zero. I was hesitant to return it due to the Postage costs involved. Glad it did Lock. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: Don Key >Sent: Jul 25, 2009 1:36 AM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status > >I recently bought 2 LPRO-101's. The first worked perfectly, locking up >within 5 minutes. > >The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to China) >for a replacement. As I didn't have a heatsink, I didn't want to leave it >any longer. Besides, if it doesn't lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it >is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts >started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the >frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. > >Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? > >...Jim > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Richard W. Solomon" >To: >Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:39 PM >Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status > > >>I fired it up last night and it took about 2 hours to lock. >> This morning it only took about 20 minutes to lock. >> I guess I need to stir the electrons a bit more ?? >> >> It's sitting there on the counter, with a 1000 sec Gate time >> and it is as accurate as I can measure (BTW, the counter >> reference is a GPSDO - TrueTime). >> >> Looks like a keeper. >> >> 73, Dick, W1KSZ >> >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 25 18:15:00 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:15:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] 5370A/B measurement floors (was Re: Fixing an HP 5370A...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6B4BA4.7030809@rubidium.dyndns.org> John Miles wrote: > It's worth noting that the 5370's accuracy is supposedly never better than 1 > ns (specifically, +/- resolution +/- timebase*interval +/- trigger jitter > +/- 1 ns systematic). We tend to rely on it to do much better than that -- > or at least we all count on the "1 ns systematic" to look like random noise > in the long run -- but it still bears remembering, because that systematic > error swamps any other effects in the short term. > > Some time ago John A. plotted his 5370's residual floor, about halfway down > the page at http://www.febo.com/pages/hp5370b/ . He fed a 1-pps signal into > a T-connector at the START jack, followed by 35 ns of coax to the STOP jack. > I ran a similar test recently, but with a TADD-2 1-pps divider driving the > START jack and a similar amount of coax driving the STOP jack from the 10 > MHz input side of the TADD-2, trying to get an idea of the composite floor > for a typical measurement using the TADD-2, the 5370B, and a bunch of coax. > The 5370B was driven by a Thunderbolt for this test. > > My results (attached) were a bit worse than John's, but with a nearly > identical slope for the duration of his test. I left it running for a few > days, and saw some significant flattening on timescales of 3-4 hours that > matched my air conditioning cycle time (as reported by the shop thermometer, > aka Lady Heather.) Based on this graph I don't consider temperature > variations to be a grave concern above floors of 1E-14, or conversely at > timescales less than an hour or two, but they should definitely be minimized > or eliminated for HP 5370A/B measurements below that. > > I still need to try variations of this test with the internal reference, > with and without the TADD-2 between the START and STOP jacks, and with > 10-second and 100-second means on the 5370B. Clearly it would be good to > achieve better than 1E-10 accuracy at t=1s, since most good crystal > oscillators are better than that. It would be interesting if you could plot the tau*ADEV(tau) curve, then the long-term deviations would be more apparent. This is a form of TDEV-similar plot, but if you only have TDEV that will also help. tau*ADEV(tau) is about 7E-11 up to tau 1000 and then rises as environmental effects kick in. If I had the time I would ask for the raw-data and fool around with that. Cheers, Magnus From ka2cdk at cox.net Sat Jul 25 21:29:55 2009 From: ka2cdk at cox.net (Thomas A. Frank) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:29:55 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 24, 2009, at 3:18 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: > Typical TAPR Thunderbolt phase noise is about -100 dBc/Hz > at 1 Hz, falling to about -150 at 100 Hz, with a floor just above > -160 beyond 10 kHz. Variations on this, and spurs, seem to be > a function mostly of power supply. For example, see: > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm Given the apparent sensitivity to the power supply that the Tbolt exhibits, has anyone put any effort into optimizing the power supply so as to minimize that set of effects? ie: what is the best power supply to use to ensure maximum accuracy for the Tbolt? A couple of linear supplies? Any particular switcher? Tom Frank, KA2CDK From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sat Jul 25 21:55:46 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:55:46 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions References: Message-ID: <2DDD7740240340E09A8A6E34EE3DD8F7@pc52> >> Typical TAPR Thunderbolt phase noise is about -100 dBc/Hz >> at 1 Hz, falling to about -150 at 100 Hz, with a floor just above >> -160 beyond 10 kHz. Variations on this, and spurs, seem to be >> a function mostly of power supply. For example, see: >> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm > > Given the apparent sensitivity to the power supply that the Tbolt > exhibits, has anyone put any effort into optimizing the power supply > so as to minimize that set of effects? > > ie: what is the best power supply to use to ensure maximum accuracy > for the Tbolt? A couple of linear supplies? Any particular switcher? > > Tom Frank, KA2CDK This could be done but do keep it in perspective. The talk about power supplies is in the context of phase noise measurements not GPSDO accuracy or stability. The latter are more a function of TBolt design, or antenna placement, or environmental control, etc. I have yet to see any difference in TBolt stability from one p.s. to another. For most of us who use a TBolt as a precise time or 10 MHz frequency reference the choice of power supply is less of a concern. I suspect line/load regulation may be more important than the number of spurs or the linear vs. switcher question. If someone has time it would be nice to know the df/dV for each of the TBolt +12, +5, and -12 volt inputs. I take it it's only the guys who need to multiply their 10 MHz up to GHz that phase noise becomes a significant issue. /tvb From w1ksz at earthlink.net Sat Jul 25 21:56:16 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:56:16 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status; Part Deux Message-ID: <6345150.1248558976399.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The time it takes to Lock has seemed to settle down to 20 minutes. That seems excessive if I read the manual correctly. How have other folks made out with theirs ? 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: "Richard W. Solomon" >Sent: Jul 25, 2009 10:09 AM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status > >At first I did not monitor the Lock Voltage, just the frequency. After >it finally locked (~ 2 hours) the case temperature was not that hot. I >could leave my hand on it. >The frequency did vary about 10 MHz (+/- 200 Hz). The second time >I did monitor the Lock Voltage. It was stable (~4.6v) until Lock, when >it went to Zero. >I was hesitant to return it due to the Postage costs involved. Glad it >did Lock. > >73, Dick, W1KSZ > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Don Key >>Sent: Jul 25, 2009 1:36 AM >>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status >> >>I recently bought 2 LPRO-101's. The first worked perfectly, locking up >>within 5 minutes. >> >>The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to China) >>for a replacement. As I didn't have a heatsink, I didn't want to leave it >>any longer. Besides, if it doesn't lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it >>is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts >>started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the >>frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. >> >>Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? >> >>...Jim >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Richard W. Solomon" >>To: >>Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 6:39 PM >>Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status >> >> >>>I fired it up last night and it took about 2 hours to lock. >>> This morning it only took about 20 minutes to lock. >>> I guess I need to stir the electrons a bit more ?? >>> >>> It's sitting there on the counter, with a 1000 sec Gate time >>> and it is as accurate as I can measure (BTW, the counter >>> reference is a GPSDO - TrueTime). >>> >>> Looks like a keeper. >>> >>> 73, Dick, W1KSZ >>> >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Jul 25 22:17:06 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 00:17:06 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] A couple of Tbolt questions In-Reply-To: <2DDD7740240340E09A8A6E34EE3DD8F7@pc52> References: <2DDD7740240340E09A8A6E34EE3DD8F7@pc52> Message-ID: <4A6B8462.3060106@rubidium.dyndns.org> Tom Van Baak wrote: >>> Typical TAPR Thunderbolt phase noise is about -100 dBc/Hz >>> at 1 Hz, falling to about -150 at 100 Hz, with a floor just above >>> -160 beyond 10 kHz. Variations on this, and spurs, seem to be >>> a function mostly of power supply. For example, see: >>> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt/noise.htm >> >> Given the apparent sensitivity to the power supply that the Tbolt >> exhibits, has anyone put any effort into optimizing the power supply >> so as to minimize that set of effects? >> >> ie: what is the best power supply to use to ensure maximum accuracy >> for the Tbolt? A couple of linear supplies? Any particular switcher? >> >> Tom Frank, KA2CDK > > This could be done but do keep it in perspective. The talk about > power supplies is in the context of phase noise measurements > not GPSDO accuracy or stability. The latter are more a function > of TBolt design, or antenna placement, or environmental control, > etc. > > I have yet to see any difference in TBolt stability from one p.s. > to another. > > For most of us who use a TBolt as a precise time or 10 MHz > frequency reference the choice of power supply is less of a > concern. I suspect line/load regulation may be more important > than the number of spurs or the linear vs. switcher question. > > If someone has time it would be nice to know the df/dV for > each of the TBolt +12, +5, and -12 volt inputs. I was just wondering about that, which supplies breaks it? The +12V supply surely goes to the heater of the OVEN. +5V for logic and +12V and -12V for serial interface. I don't think that there is any analog EFC processing relating to the +/- 12V but then again, maybe there is? I don't know, but what if the EFC DAC has no reference voltage? Just speculating. It should have it and it should be fairly obvious for holdover, but stranger things have happend before. > I take it it's only the guys who need to multiply their 10 MHz up > to GHz that phase noise becomes a significant issue. Indeed. A simple linear step-down supply could be built without too much hazzle and then feed it from +/- 15 VDC supply. Cheers, Magnus From drmartin at ivie.com Sat Jul 25 23:23:22 2009 From: drmartin at ivie.com (David Martin) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:23:22 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question Message-ID: <6.2.5.3.2.20090725171511.025a40d8@ivie.com> My new TAPR Thunderbolt just arrived and is happily hooked up, self-surveyed, and phase-locking. However, Trimble Thunderbolt Monitor software v 2.60 reports that the temperature is -18.9 degrees C. It started at -21.6 degrees C. This is much different from another TBolt that reports something more like +47 degrees C. Will this incorrect temperature be a performance issue ?? Is it fixable ?? Any suggestions as to where to look ?? Thanks. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 23:25:27 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:25:27 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: <32F10A68-A2AB-4516-AE84-F2D6F6CFFA4E@att.net> References: <4A6B0A76.3080808@xtra.co.nz> <32F10A68-A2AB-4516-AE84-F2D6F6CFFA4E@att.net> Message-ID: <4A6B9467.9050409@xtra.co.nz> Brian See: http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/ZeroCrossingDetectors.html Just cascade several limiter /filter stages to achieve the required gain. Inverting stages are perhaps easier to use. A table specifying the voltage gain and filter time constant for each stage is given on this page. The example assumes that the input noise spectral density for each stage is 10nV/rtHz. In practice its desirable to measure the phase detector output spectral noise density. When the spectral noise density isn't the same for each stage (NB noise for the input stage should include the phase detector noise(at its low pass filter output)) the optimum gain and filter time constant distribution is different to that given in the table. Without measurements of the phase detector output noise its not possible to calculate the optimum gain and filter time constant for each stage. Bruce wa1zms wrote: > bruce- > > do you have a favorite ZCD schematic that you can share? > > many thanks in advance! > > > -Brian, WA1ZMS > > On Jul 25, 2009, at 9:36 AM, Bruce Griffiths > wrote: > >> Bert >> >> If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to use >> an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector >> (ZCD) output and the counter input to minimise potential low frequency >> ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit >> the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated >> from each other. >> >> A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to >> achieve with a good ZCD design. >> Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the >> stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures. >> Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz. >> The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages of >> the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco. >> >> Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing detector >> built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system. >> >> The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the offset >> frequency. >> The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the >> noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant >> jitter. >> To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of >> slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and clamping >> to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As >> long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is >> driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose >> other than increasing the noise by more than necessary. >> >> Bruce >> >> EWKehren at aol.com wrote: >>> Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer >>> system >>> can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $ >>> 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the >>> programming of >>> two u processors and the software that need to be written for the >>> computer. >>> How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen >>> as a >>> joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual >>> channel counter > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Jul 25 23:30:43 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:30:43 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] DMTD phase shifter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6B95A3.7030105@xtra.co.nz> Bert Which NIST isolation amplifier? The later designs are much better than the one used in their dual mixer system built for GPS testing purposes. Yes, send me the block diagram etc off line. EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > Bruce, what I envision is two identical channels made up of offset > isolation amplifier, mixer/filter/amplifier and zero detector/counter module. The > Isolation and Mixer modules would be copies of the NIST circuit using later > components. The two counter modules talk to a separate counter/u processor > through opto isolators. The fifth counter is part of that module and uses > info from the two counter modules to also determine the phase difference > between the two oscillators being monitored. This seventh module also handles > the USB interface. If you want to I will redraw the block diagram and a > detailed circuit of the counters and send it to you direct. Bert > > > In a message dated 7/25/2009 9:37:25 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, > bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: > > Bert > > If you intend to use a USB interface then its probably essential to use > an optical isolator or equivalent between the zero crossing detector > (ZCD) output and the counter input to minimize potential low frequency > ground loop problems. JPL found that low frequency ground loops limit > the performance if the zero crossing detector outputs aren't isolated > from each other. > > A resolution of better than 1E-14/tau should be relatively easy to > achieve with a good ZCD design. > Maintaining such resolution for long tau will be dependent on the > stability of the mixer and ZCD temperatures. > Mixer drift can be as large as 10ps/C or more at 10MHz. > The tempco of the low pass filter components in the first few stages of > the ZCD will dominate the ZCD phase shift tempco. > > Using a linear amplifier and filter in front of a zero crossing detector > built into the counter is not the best way to implement such a system. > > The amplifier filter limiter chain should be designed to suit the offset > frequency. > The goal is to increase the zero crossing slope to a point where the > noise of the counter input circuitry doesnt contribute significant jitter. > To do this linear amplification is counterproductive, every stage of > slope amplification needs to incorporate a low pass filter and clamping > to reduce the output noise whilst increasing the output slew rate. As > long as the signal level is sufficient to ensure that each stage is > driven well into limiting, linear amplification serves little purpose > other than increasing the noise by more than necessary. > > Bruce > > EWKehren at aol.com wrote: > >> Bruce, Thanks for your comments. It is my opinion that a dual mixer >> > system > >> can be built including five counters for a material cost of less than $ >> 200. The computer interface would be USB. My challenge is the >> > programming of > >> two u processors and the software that need to be written for the >> > computer. > >> How ever there is so much expertise in this group to make it happen as >> > a > >> joint effort, if the interest is there. By integrating a dual channel >> > counter > >> with each mixer, focusing on a zero crossing detector that is part of >> > the > >> counter section and isolated from the mixer/filter/amplifier it should >> > be > >> possible to realize better than 10 E 14. The counters would count 100 >> > MHz. > >> $200 would cover 7 PC boars, 7 Alu enclosures and all electronic >> > components > >> if 100 units get build. The price break will be in the PC board cost. >> Offset oscillator obviously would not be included. >> As you pointed out there is room for improvement on the zero detector. I >> > > >> have done the counters on an other project and if there is interest I >> > will > >> gladly share my information and thoughts. >> Bert Kehren >> >> >> In a message dated 7/24/2009 11:30:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, >> bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz writes: >> >> EWKehren at aol.com wrote: >> >> >>> On the chance that I may be totally wrong let me suggest the >>> > following. > >>> >>> >> In >> >> >>> my opinion you are looking at the wrong information. When you mix a 10 >>> >>> >> MHz >> >> >>> signal with a signal offset by 1 Hz you are subtracting from a 10 E 7 >>> signal 10 E 7 and as a result get 1 Hz representing 10 E 7. Counting >>> > it > >>> >>> >> with a >> >> >>> counter with 1 ns resolution, you in effect get at the last digit 10 >>> > E > >>> >>> >> 16. >> >> >>> Obviously some of the last digits are irrelevant due to noise and >>> >>> >> trigger >> >> >>> error. Using two mixers with the common offset oscillator you want >>> > the > >>> >>> >> two >> >> >>> phases to be as close as possible to reduce the noise contribution of >>> >>> >> the >> >> >>> offset oscillator. That is why you want the phase shift. Measuring >>> > the > >>> >>> >> time >> >> >>> difference between the zero crossings in my opinion is not the way to >>> > > >>> >>> >> go. >> >> >>> I am inspired by the simplicity of the NBS unit (thank you Corby for >>> > the > >>> >>> >> >> >> >>> info) to lay out a PC Board; reading some of the comments I would >>> >>> >> appreciate >> >> >>> any links to more info on that subject that may make the design more >>> effective. Any help would be greatly appreciate. >>> Bert Kehren WB5MZJ >>> **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 >>> > > >>> >>> >> easy >> >> >>> steps! >>> >>> >>> >> >> > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377105x1201454426/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd > >> >> >>> =JulystepsfooterNO115) >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> >>> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> >> >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Bert >> >> With a classical dual mixer system, the only useful measurement is the >> time difference between the zero crossings of the 2 beat frequencies. >> The limiters used distort the signal and amplify the zero crossing slew >> rate, thereby precluding meaningful measures of anything else but the >> zero crossing times. >> Time stamping the zero crossing times for each channel may be more >> useful rather than just measuring the time differences. >> >> The zero crossing circuit employed by NIST is far from optimum (Oliver >> Collins paper on the design of low jitter hard limiters wasn't published >> until May 1996), some of the JPL designs are better but are still some >> way from optimum. >> The timing jitter and phase drift of the ZCD output limits performance. >> JPL achieved a zero crossing jitter of around 40ns in their 1Hz beat >> frequency ZCDs, it should be possible to reduce this by a factor of 3 >> > or > >> so. >> There later DMTD systems use a beat frequency of around 100Hz or so >> > with > >> a 100MHz mixer input frequency. >> The zero crossing detector filter component tempcos will limit the phase >> shift stability for larger tau as will the mixer phase shift tempco (~ >> ps/C). >> It is also essential to avoid low frequency ground loops that affect the >> 2 zero crossing detectors. >> The mixer IF port grounds need to be low frequency isolated from the RF >> grounds of the other 2 ports. >> One needs to know the phase detector output noise in the flicker region >> in order to optimise the zero crossing detector design. >> Unfortunately phase detector flicker noise specifications don't appear >> on the datasheet so one has to measure it. >> One can do this using a low noise preamp for a sound card or a spectrum >> analyser. >> Using an apprpriate mixer IF port termination (a 50 ohm or even 500 ohm >> resistive termination may be far from optimum) will affect the beat >> frequency signal jitter. >> >> If one eliminates the limiters (however the distortion probably needs to >> be kept down) then, in principle a COSTAS receiver could be used to >> measure the phase shift between the beat frequencies independently of >> the individual beat frequencies and proximity to a beat frequency zero >> crossing. However ADC noise will limit the performance unless one uses 2 >> or more ADCs per beat frequency and uses correlation techniques to >> eliminate the ADC noise. >> >> Bruce >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy >> Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/ >> >> > 100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul > >> yExcfooterNO62) >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy > Steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585106x1201462830/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jul > yExcfooterNO62) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From joegwinn at comcast.net Sun Jul 26 00:23:07 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 20:23:07 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing Message-ID: Magnus, At 4:01 PM +0000 7/25/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: > >Message: 5 >Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:38:23 +0200 >From: Magnus Danielson >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD > signals by I+Q processing >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > >Joe Gwinn wrote: >> It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain >> approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers and >> two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO signals >> provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four ADCs will >> be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. >> >> The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time >> delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the > > complex [conjugate] of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase > > difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so long >> as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical argument >> function of this exponential is the desired phase. >> >> In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and will >> heavily average the resulting stream of products. >> >> Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance compared to >> the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average >> approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily implemented >> in a DSP or FPGA. > >The time-difference between the two sampling points could be minimized >in such an approach as the phase could be shifted arbitrarily in the >post-processing such that the effective phase difference between the two >chains reduces to near zero and hence the correlation between the >channels for the transfer oscillator would be better in phase and cancel >the transfer oscillator out better. It would be nice, but I need to think about this. I'm not sure that you don't have to use a real physical delay out in the analog hardware. >The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a phase >adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back for >proper phase-trace. But, unlike ZCD-triggered counters, there is no disadvantage or difficulty if the phase difference is adjusted exactly to zero, where the two 1 Hz sinewaves coincide. >An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce >suggested. A Costas loop is far more complex, but they do work well. Given near constant phase delay, don't know if a Costas loop is worth the trouble. The Costas loop will not by itself solve the problem of transfer-oscillator noise. >Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a FPGA >frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very reasonable >rates, just as for a GPS receiver. Yes. Is 0.01 Hz slow enough? Joe Gwinn From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Jul 26 00:29:24 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: <4A6B18DF.3040105@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A6B18DF.3040105@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <4A6BA364.8000406@xtra.co.nz> If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs and the mixer preamps. Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling is around -150dBFS/Hz. The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. Bruce Magnus Danielson wrote: > Joe Gwinn wrote: >> It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain >> approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers >> and two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO >> signals provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four >> ADCs will be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. >> >> The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time >> delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the >> complex complement of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase >> difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so >> long as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical >> argument function of this exponential is the desired phase. >> >> In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and >> will heavily average the resulting stream of products. >> >> Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance compared >> to the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average >> approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily >> implemented in a DSP or FPGA. > > The time-difference between the two sampling points could be minimized > in such an approach as the phase could be shifted arbitrarilly in the > post-processing such that the effective phase difference between the > two chains reduces to near zero and hence the correlation between the > channels for the transfer oscillator would be better in phase and > cancel the transfer oscillator out better. > > The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a > phase adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back > for proper phase-trace. > > An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce > suggested. > > Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a > FPGA frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very > reasnoble rates, just as for a GPS receiver. > > Cheers, > Magnus > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 26 01:00:28 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:00:28 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6BAAAC.8000302@rubidium.dyndns.org> Joe Gwinn wrote: > Magnus, > > At 4:01 PM +0000 7/25/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:38:23 +0200 >> From: Magnus Danielson >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >> signals by I+Q processing >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> >> Joe Gwinn wrote: >>> It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain >>> approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers and >>> two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO signals >>> provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four ADCs will >>> be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. >>> >>> The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time >>> delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the >> > complex [conjugate] of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase >> > difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so >> long >>> as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical >>> argument >>> function of this exponential is the desired phase. >>> >>> In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and will >>> heavily average the resulting stream of products. >>> >>> Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance >>> compared to >>> the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average >>> approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily >>> implemented >>> in a DSP or FPGA. >> >> The time-difference between the two sampling points could be minimized >> in such an approach as the phase could be shifted arbitrarily in the >> post-processing such that the effective phase difference between the two >> chains reduces to near zero and hence the correlation between the >> channels for the transfer oscillator would be better in phase and cancel >> the transfer oscillator out better. > > It would be nice, but I need to think about this. I'm not sure that you > don't have to use a real physical delay out in the analog hardware. If you play the vector/phasor game you know that while you shift frequency, you don't shift phase, so whatever phase-change you want to apply to the carrier level (10 MHz) you can apply to the mixed down case. Recall, the problem with not full cancelation of the transfer oscillator is due to the time-difference of the beat notes and that the ZCD detectors by design adapts to what it percieves to be 0 degree and that the the time occurence of this is different between the two beat note channels. Now, if we phase shift at the beat note frequency we can make that channels beat-note time occurance in the ZCD to be come arbitrarilly shifted and thus close the time-difference considerably until they occur too close in which case we get unwanted degradation due to cross-talk. Phase-shifting at the carrier frequency is just to achieve the same thing, infact that is doing it one step away from where it is expected to occur. If we do this in stable digital domain, there is less stability issues. It should be noted that such shifting needs to be continously monitored and adjusted as the carrier frequencies drift appart. Any adjustments needs to be compensated or otherwise will phase-steps be introduced into the datastream. A carefull correction actually compensate for both gain and phase shifts. >> The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a phase >> adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back for >> proper phase-trace. > > But, unlike ZCD-triggered counters, there is no disadvantage or > difficulty if the phase difference is adjusted exactly to zero, where > the two 1 Hz sinewaves coincide. Depends on your post-processing. If you attempt to emulate ZCD in firmware, then you get that result. If you rather do the phase-subtraction processing no phase-shifting is needed as it is done sample-for-sample and the issue is gone and you have a clear phase-difference record that builds. >> An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce >> suggested. > > A Costas loop is far more complex, but they do work well. Given near > constant phase delay, don't know if a Costas loop is worth the trouble. > > The Costas loop will not by itself solve the problem of > transfer-oscillator noise. Costas loops isn't that expensive these days, rather they are hidden away in all kinds of places. If you do that processing in digital domain, you can with propper pre-staging even do advanced phase detectors such as arctan(y/x) in real time and get away with it. >> Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a FPGA >> frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very reasonable >> rates, just as for a GPS receiver. > > Yes. Is 0.01 Hz slow enough? That is probably too slow actually. Cheers, Magnus From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 01:04:04 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:04:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Tbolt uses the temperature reading to fine tune the oscillator disciplining. It has a major effect on holdover performance (when the GPS signal is not available) and some effect on normal performance. You can quite clearly see the effect of the temperature reading on the DAC setting in plots. If the sensor produced a temperature reading that was directly proportional to the true temperature, any error should be minor. I don't think absolute accuracy is as important as relative accuracy since the Tbolt learns how the oscillator responds to temperature readings, but your readings are WAY off. The fault is almost certainly in the small eight pin DS1620 chip near the RS-232 connector. There are two versions of this chip. The ones before Rev E work much better than the later ones because they report the temperature in a way that can be resolved by the Tbolt firmware quite finely (around 0.01 C raw values). The later chips report the temperature with a very crude 1 degree C granularity. Search the archives for the details. I found that the chips from: http://www.rentron.com/Products/Electronic-Components.htm are Rev C chips and work well in the Tbolt. The chip itself is cheap at $3.50... shipping is not... it ran me around $11. A group purchase/reshipment program might be useful. I know of several Tbolts that had bad DS1620 chips. I had several, but wound up sending them out. ---------------------------------------- Will this incorrect temperature be a performance issue ?? Is it fixable ?? Any suggestions as to where to look ?? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Jul 26 01:10:29 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:10:29 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: <4A6BA364.8000406@xtra.co.nz> References: <4A6B18DF.3040105@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A6BA364.8000406@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A6BAD05.2010704@rubidium.dyndns.org> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid > the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs > and the mixer preamps. Traditionally the beat frequency balance against the flicker noise in which a lower beat frequency increases the "gain" where as eventually flicker frequency comes and haunt us. An alternative approach is to choose a higher initial beat frequency around say 1 kHz, sample that using traditional audio samplers and then digitally further mix down the signals before detection. That way you can get say 1 Hz beat frequency with the noise performance dominated by the 1 kHz noise. However, the processing could be performed on the original 1 kHz waveform directly or for that matter a direct sampled variant of the original waveforms. A second mixdown requires that the first and second LOs is locked to each other for best performance. > Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? > Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower > bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs > that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? > The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling > is around -150dBFS/Hz. > The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) > capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. Direct sampling is ofcourse another method to consider, but put higher demands on up-front processing. It has however become fairly cheap. Cheers, Magnus From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 12:16:34 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 05:16:34 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question References: Message-ID: I just received my TARP Tbolt and it has the 1 deg Temp steps. From the few test I've done so far, Looks like the neg effect is going to be quite noticeable at lab conditions where the temp changes only a couple degrees. Any plans on making a replacement chip available? I also have rev 3 firmware, Anyone know if that is going to make a difference in the replacement chip. warren ***************** ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" To: Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:04 PM Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question The Tbolt uses the temperature reading to fine tune the oscillator disciplining. It has a major effect on holdover performance (when the GPS signal is not available) and some effect on normal performance. You can quite clearly see the effect of the temperature reading on the DAC setting in plots. If the sensor produced a temperature reading that was directly proportional to the true temperature, any error should be minor. I don't think absolute accuracy is as important as relative accuracy since the Tbolt learns how the oscillator responds to temperature readings, but your readings are WAY off. The fault is almost certainly in the small eight pin DS1620 chip near the RS-232 connector. There are two versions of this chip. The ones before Rev E work much better than the later ones because they report the temperature in a way that can be resolved by the Tbolt firmware quite finely (around 0.01 C raw values). The later chips report the temperature with a very crude 1 degree C granularity. Search the archives for the details. I found that the chips from: http://www.rentron.com/Products/Electronic-Components.htm are Rev C chips and work well in the Tbolt. The chip itself is cheap at $3.50... shipping is not... it ran me around $11. A group purchase/reshipment program might be useful. I know of several Tbolts that had bad DS1620 chips. I had several, but wound up sending them out. ---------------------------------------- Will this incorrect temperature be a performance issue ?? Is it fixable ?? Any suggestions as to where to look ?? _________________________________________________________________ From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Sun Jul 26 13:14:03 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:14:03 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 01:04:04 +0000, Mark Sims wrote: >The Tbolt uses the temperature reading to fine tune the oscillator disciplining. It has a major effect on holdover performance (when the GPS signal is not available) and some effect on normal performance. You can quite clearly see the effect of the temperature reading on the DAC setting in plots. >If the sensor produced a temperature reading that was directly proportional to the true temperature, any error should be minor. I don't think absolute accuracy is as important as relative accuracy since the Tbolt learns how the oscillator responds to temperature readings, but your readings are WAY off. >The fault is almost certainly in the small eight pin DS1620 chip near the RS-232 connector. There are two versions of this chip. The ones before Rev E work much better than the later ones because they report the temperature in a way that can be resolved by the Tbolt firmware quite finely (around 0.01 C raw values). The later chips report the temperature with a very crude 1 degree C granularity. Search the archives for the details. >I found that the chips from: > http://www.rentron.com/Products/Electronic-Components.htm >are Rev C chips and work well in the Tbolt. The chip itself is cheap at $3.50... shipping is not... it ran me around $11. A group purchase/reshipment program might be useful. I know of several Tbolts that had bad DS1620 chips. I had several, but wound up sending them out. Thank you Tom! How can one verify the rev. of the chip? Is there a code on? How can I be sure to get from a distributor the revision I want? What in fact is the difference in the design of both versions? All what I found are some programming hints to read a internal register with intermediate count status. This way it is (was?) possible to get a resolution downt to 0.01 deg. C or so with a real 'precision' still of 0.5 deg. C. But a question does remain, how will this temp sensing on the top of the board get the chance to correctly compensate some (fast) temp. variations when the oscillator is sitting away, well encapsulated and 'stabilized' inside via it's own heater system (time shift!)? Outside fluctuations will not correspond at a certain moment with the inside temp. variations of the OCXO I think. Can such a system not work well only when having very slow temp. variations? If that is the case it is still of big importance to have a kind of temperature stabilizing housing around the box. Here one will find some description of the principle of the high resolution readout with the DS1620: OWL2 to DS1620 temperature sensor http://www.owlogic.com/OL2d1620.htm I add a picture showing the DS1620 position as U9 on the board close to the DB9 RS232 connector. (very much zoomed in and a compressed, I tried to get the size as small as possible) regards Arnold -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/jpeg Size: 45368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From joegwinn at comcast.net Sun Jul 26 15:14:09 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:14:09 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing Message-ID: Magnus, At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >Message: 4 >Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:00:28 +0200 >From: Magnus Danielson >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD > signals by I+Q processing >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > >Joe Gwinn wrote: >> Magnus, >> >> At 4:01 PM +0000 7/25/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >>> >>> Message: 5 >>> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:38:23 +0200 >>> From: Magnus Danielson >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >>> signals by I+Q processing >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> >>> >>> Joe Gwinn wrote: >>>> It occurs to me that there is a possible alternative to the ZCD-chain >>>> approach typical in DMTDs, if one is willing to provide two mixers and >>>> two ADCs per channel, with a 90 degree phase offset between LO signals >>>> provided to the mixers of a channel. The output of the four ADCs will >>>> be a pair of I+Q signals, one pair per DMTD channel. >>>> >>>> The key observation is that if one has two signals, one being a time >>>> delayed replica of the other, if one multiplies one signal by the > >> > complex [conjugate] of the other signal, the result is Exp[j(phase >>> > difference)]. This is true whatever the waveform of the signal, so long > >>> as the only difference in signals is a delay. The mathematical > >>> argument function of this exponential is the desired phase. >>>> >>>> In practice, one will sample far faster than 1 Hz, say 1 MHz, and will >>>> heavily average the resulting stream of products. >>>> >>>> Now I have not gone through the math to estimate performance >>>> compared to >>>> the traditional ZCD approach, but the complex multiply and average >>>> approach should be quite robust against noise, and is easily >>>> implemented in a DSP or FPGA. >>> >>> The time-difference between the two sampling points could be minimized >>> in such an approach as the phase could be shifted arbitrarily in the >>> post-processing such that the effective phase difference between the two >>> chains reduces to near zero and hence the correlation between the >>> channels for the transfer oscillator would be better in phase and cancel >>> the transfer oscillator out better. >> >> It would be nice, but I need to think about this. I'm not sure that you >> don't have to use a real physical delay out in the analog hardware. > >If you play the vector/phasor game you know that while you shift >frequency, you don't shift phase, so whatever phase-change you want to >apply to the carrier level (10 MHz) you can apply to the mixed down case. I haven't had time to play the math gain, but I suspect that you are right. >Recall, the problem with not full cancelation of the transfer oscillator >is due to the time-difference of the beat notes and that the ZCD >detectors by design adapts to what it percieves to be 0 degree and that >the the time occurence of this is different between the two beat note >channels. > >Now, if we phase shift at the beat note frequency we can make that >channels beat-note time occurance in the ZCD to be come arbitrarilly >shifted and thus close the time-difference considerably until they occur >too close in which case we get unwanted degradation due to cross-talk. > >Phase-shifting at the carrier frequency is just to achieve the same >thing, infact that is doing it one step away from where it is expected >to occur. If we do this in stable digital domain, there is less >stability issues. > >It should be noted that such shifting needs to be continously monitored >and adjusted as the carrier frequencies drift appart. Any adjustments >needs to be compensated or otherwise phase-steps will be introduced into >the datastream. A carefull correction actually compensate for both gain >and phase shifts. I would set up a tracking loop to keep the two 1 Hz signals coincident, and the loop implementation would report how much shift war required to achieve this coincidence. > >> The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a phase >>> adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back for >>> proper phase-trace. >> >> But, unlike ZCD-triggered counters, there is no disadvantage or >> difficulty if the phase difference is adjusted exactly to zero, where >> the two 1 Hz sinewaves coincide. > >Depends on your post-processing. If you attempt to emulate ZCD in >firmware, then you get that result. If you rather do the >phase-subtraction processing no phase-shifting is needed as it is done >sample-for-sample and the issue is gone and you have a clear >phase-difference record that builds. Yes. > >> An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce >>> suggested. >> >> A Costas loop is far more complex, but they do work well. Given near >> constant phase delay, don't know if a Costas loop is worth the trouble. >> >> The Costas loop will not by itself solve the problem of >> transfer-oscillator noise. > >Costas loops isn't that expensive these days, rather they are hidden >away in all kinds of places. If you do that processing in digital >domain, you can with proper pre-staging even do advanced phase >detectors such as arctan(y/x) in real time and get away with it. Yes. My reaction to Costas Loops is simply that they may be overkill for this application, and will no doubt bring their own set of issues to be solved. But it's a tradeoff for sure. > >> Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a FPGA >>> frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very reasonable >>> rates, just as for a GPS receiver. >> >> Yes. Is 0.01 Hz slow enough? > >That is probably too slow actually. How fast will the phase offset between 1 Hz signals change? I was thinking of a 100-second loop constant, but 10 seconds would also work. Joe Gwinn From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 15:20:44 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:20:44 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR Thunderbolt Temperature Reporting Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Search the archives for discussions on the DS1620 chip issue: Google "site:febo.com DS1620" The key to the problem is explained in: http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2009-February/036520.html Basically the old rev chips have a high resolution mode of around 0.01C. The new rev chips have a resolution of 0.0625C, but the Tbolt firmware is not compatible with some changes made in the new chips, and it winds up with the temperature quantitized to 1C steps. The old rev chips had two different ways of accessing the high-res temp registers. The new chips have only one way. Of course, the Tbolt firmware uses the method that was eliminated from the newer chips. BTW, Dallas Semi apparently never told anybody about the changes and their current data sheet still talks about the old way of doing things. The rev level of the chip is found at the end of one of the lines (usually the middle line) of text etched in the package. It will end in something like E2 or D1, etc. Chips E and above have the crude resolution. D and below have the fine resolution. All chips from Dallas Semi or their distributors will be the new rev. The one place that I found older (rev C) chips was rentron.com The sensor and oscillator are in that metal box. Yes they have different time constants, but are fairly well coupled. You are better off isolating the Tbolt as well as possible from the environment (as long as you don't let the internal temperature get too high). I have found rapidly diminishing returns below around 0.1C internal temp changes over an air conditioning cycle. Below that level, system noise and GPS effects become the limiting factors. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports From joegwinn at comcast.net Sun Jul 26 15:27:00 2009 From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:27:00 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing Message-ID: Bruce, At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >Message: 3 >Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 >From: Bruce Griffiths >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD > signals by I+Q processing >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > > >If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid >the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs >and the mixer preamps. > >Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? >Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower >bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs >that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? >The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling >is around -150dBFS/Hz. >The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) >capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. It strikes me that one can do a double conversion here, with one conversion done in analog hardware, the other in a DSP. The analog mixer would go from megahertz to say 100 KHz or 30 KHz, and this kilohertz signal would be digitized, yielding a stream of I+Q samples. The resulting stream of digital I+Q samples would then be numerically mixed down to 1 Hz, and the relative phase between the two 1 Hz signals would be measured. This two-step approach should neatly sidestep the flicker-noise issue. As for the ADC yielding I+Q samples, given the great oversampling possible with current ADCs, one can use a single ADC and mathematically generate the I+Q streams. There are many methods, invented because high=performance ADCs are very expensive, and because it is difficult to find sufficiently well matched pairs of such ADCs. Joe Gwinn From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 16:08:28 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:08:28 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did a rather interesting test on the effects of the survey position accuracy on the Thunderbolt. Attached are two plots. The first one is with the Tbolt position within three feet of the actual location. The second show the results when the Tbolt is told it is 200 feet from where it actually is. The graphs are scaled to the same scale factors. The jumps in the 200 foot graph are NOT correlated to satellite constellation changes, etc. The self-reported performance is degraded by a factor of around 10. The quantization and structure of the 200 foot graph is totally unexpected. It may help explain things like the DAC spikes in divisions 5 and 7 of the 3foot.gif graph. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 3feet.gif Type: image/gif Size: 24676 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 200feet.gif Type: image/gif Size: 29385 bytes Desc: not available URL: From GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Jul 26 16:47:07 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:47:07 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance Message-ID: In a message dated 26/07/2009 17:09:06 GMT Daylight Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: I did a rather interesting test on the effects of the survey position accuracy on the Thunderbolt. Attached are two plots. The first one is with the Tbolt position within three feet of the actual location. The second show the results when the Tbolt is told it is 200 feet from where it actually is. The graphs are scaled to the same scale factors. The jumps in the 200 foot graph are NOT correlated to satellite constellation changes, etc. The self-reported performance is degraded by a factor of around 10. The quantization and structure of the 200 foot graph is totally unexpected. It may help explain things like the DAC spikes in divisions 5 and 7 of the 3foot.gif graph. ------------------ That's certainly a significant difference, but would you expect that under more normal circumstances? Or. to put it another way, what could we reasonably expect to see as a position error if the T'bolt is allowed to self survey? regards Nigel GM8PZR From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 17:45:40 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:45:40 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ahhh, that's the 64 nanosecond question. I did a lot of self surveys with a geodetic grade antenna over a spot known to within less than a millimeter. Most results were with 6 feet lat/lon 6 meters altitude (hey, can I get a job at JPL landing spacecraft? I can mix english and metric in the same measurement). But, the key word is most. Some were off over 50 feet lat/lon and 100 meters altitude. Unless you have a known position to compare against you may never know for sure. And, if you have a precisely known location, you can't enter it into the Tbolt with sufficient accuracy since that message uses single precision numbers. I am doing a couple more tests with a 50 foot error and another with all the error in the altitude (those first two graphs were with lat and lon offset by around 141.4 feet and the altitude exact) ---------------------------------------- Or. to put it another way, what could we reasonably expect to see as a position error if the T'bolt is allowed to self survey? _________________________________________________________________ NEW mobile Hotmail. Optimized for YOUR phone. Click here. http://windowslive.com/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_MB_new_hotmail_072009 From mats.engstrom at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 18:14:20 2009 From: mats.engstrom at gmail.com (Mats Engstrom) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:14:20 +0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring Message-ID: Hi, I've been lurking on this list for a long time but now it's time to unlurk. I don't remember if it's appropriate to introduce oneself on this list, but I'll do it anyways. :) I've been tinkering with electronics for some thirty odd years now - mostly just as a hobby but also occasionally semi-professionally. Most of my stuff is microcontroller based (AVR and/or PIC) - mostly in assembly,but C is also ok for some projects - higher level languages are for whimps :). I'm Swedish by birth but living and working in Dubai in the IT/Finance industry since a couple of years. I just bought a Thunderbolt from flyingbest at Ebay to use as a nice timebase for my counters and signal gens. I discovered that it had a bad DS1620 tempsensor that always reported -55 C so I replaced it with a thru-hole version that I happened to have some spares of. I then got a nice 24.xxxxx C temperature readout in Lady Heather. (When I tested the tbolt without the DS1620 it reported a temperature between -0.5 to -1.5 C) Now I'm finally coming to the question: Since I'm using a thru-hole version of the DS1620 and have to use cables between the chip and the circuit board I could possibly extend the cables a bit so I can glue (with a non termo-insulating glue) the chip onto the ocxo itself to have a tighter coupling between them. Would that improve the stability or is it better to just measure the air temperature in the box? /mats From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com Sun Jul 26 20:27:43 2009 From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:27:43 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <75F90ED700D8417A89597EC65B14E598@APOLLO> 24 degrees C for the temperature doesn't sound right unless you only just applied power - I'd expect somewhere around 45C. Dace -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mats Engstrom Sent: 26 July 2009 19:14 To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring Hi, I've been lurking on this list for a long time but now it's time to unlurk. I don't remember if it's appropriate to introduce oneself on this list, but I'll do it anyways. :) I've been tinkering with electronics for some thirty odd years now - mostly just as a hobby but also occasionally semi-professionally. Most of my stuff is microcontroller based (AVR and/or PIC) - mostly in assembly,but C is also ok for some projects - higher level languages are for whimps :). I'm Swedish by birth but living and working in Dubai in the IT/Finance industry since a couple of years. I just bought a Thunderbolt from flyingbest at Ebay to use as a nice timebase for my counters and signal gens. I discovered that it had a bad DS1620 tempsensor that always reported -55 C so I replaced it with a thru-hole version that I happened to have some spares of. I then got a nice 24.xxxxx C temperature readout in Lady Heather. (When I tested the tbolt without the DS1620 it reported a temperature between -0.5 to -1.5 C) Now I'm finally coming to the question: Since I'm using a thru-hole version of the DS1620 and have to use cables between the chip and the circuit board I could possibly extend the cables a bit so I can glue (with a non termo-insulating glue) the chip onto the ocxo itself to have a tighter coupling between them. Would that improve the stability or is it better to just measure the air temperature in the box? /mats _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:32:45 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 20:32:45 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here are a couple more plots of the effects of position errors in the Thunderbolt perfomance. The first is with the location offset by 50 feet. The other is with the lat/lon exact, but the altitude set 200 feet high. The effects of a position error of 35 feet in lat and lon (50 feet total) is still quite noticeable. Altitude errors have less effect than lat/lon errors, but are still significant. It appears that many of those 30 second or so flat topped spikes that appear in your the PPS and DAC plots are due to differences in the surveyed position and the current satellite location fix. The closer you can get an accurate antenna location into your Tbolt, the better your performance should be. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 50feet.gif Type: image/gif Size: 23521 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 200ftalt.gif Type: image/gif Size: 23685 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mats.engstrom at gmail.com Sun Jul 26 20:47:08 2009 From: mats.engstrom at gmail.com (Mats Engstrom) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 00:47:08 +0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring In-Reply-To: <75F90ED700D8417A89597EC65B14E598@APOLLO> References: <75F90ED700D8417A89597EC65B14E598@APOLLO> Message-ID: Right, I had just applied power and the board was just laying on the desk. It will probably be much warmer when it's inside an insulated box drawing 5-6 watts of power. (The box is insulated with about 0.2" of some insulating plastic material.) /mats On Mon, Jul 27, 2009 at 12:27 AM, David C. Partridge wrote: > 24 degrees C for the temperature doesn't sound right unless you only just > applied power - I'd expect somewhere around 45C. > > Dace > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Mats Engstrom > Sent: 26 July 2009 19:14 > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring > > Hi, > > I've been lurking on this list for a long time but now it's time to unlurk. > > I don't remember if it's appropriate to introduce oneself on this list, but > I'll do it anyways. :) > > I've been tinkering with electronics for some thirty odd years now - mostly > just as a hobby but also occasionally semi-professionally. > Most of my stuff is microcontroller based (AVR and/or PIC) - mostly in > assembly,but C is also ok for some projects - higher level languages are for > whimps :). ?I'm Swedish by birth but living and working in Dubai in the > IT/Finance industry since a couple of years. > > I just bought a Thunderbolt from flyingbest at Ebay to use as a nice > timebase for my counters and signal gens. ?I discovered that it had a bad > DS1620 tempsensor that always reported -55 C so I replaced it with a > thru-hole version that I happened to have some spares of. I then got a nice > 24.xxxxx C temperature readout in Lady Heather. (When I tested the tbolt > without the DS1620 it reported a temperature between -0.5 to > -1.5 C) > > Now I'm finally coming to the question: Since I'm using a thru-hole version > of the DS1620 and have to use cables between the chip and the circuit board > I could possibly extend the cables a bit so I can glue (with a non > termo-insulating glue) the chip onto the ocxo itself to have a tighter > coupling between them. ?Would that improve the stability or is it better to > just measure the air temperature in the box? > > /mats > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Mats Engstrom, Nerdlabs Consulting , http://www.nerdlabs.se From wb6bnq at cox.net Sun Jul 26 21:06:23 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:06:23 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring References: Message-ID: <4A6CC54F.120EFC60@cox.net> Mat, I think the purpose of the DS1620 is to integrate the "ambient" temperature into the equation used by the T-bolt. I suspect that the ovenized internal oscillator has its own temperature control. That being the case, then it would be counterproductive to couple the DS1620 to the oscillators container. The sensitivity of the "ambient" sensor depends upon its significance in the equation, whose composition is not really known. However, it can be inferred by observing the results of various testing. The thread on this subject is the results of a series of observations made over a fairly long time. Mark Sims has been the point man with this problem and has been doing a lot of investigation into this area and would be the one to correct the record. The above is my take on what I have read of his posts. Bill....WB6BNQ Mats Engstrom wrote: > Hi, > > I've been lurking on this list for a long time but now it's time to unlurk. > > I don't remember if it's appropriate to introduce oneself on this > list, but I'll do it anyways. :) > > I've been tinkering with electronics for some thirty odd years now - > mostly just as a hobby but also occasionally semi-professionally. > Most of my stuff is microcontroller based (AVR and/or PIC) - mostly in > assembly,but C is also ok for some projects - higher level languages > are for whimps :). I'm Swedish by birth but living and working in > Dubai in the IT/Finance industry since a couple of years. > > I just bought a Thunderbolt from flyingbest at Ebay to use as a nice > timebase for my counters and signal gens. I discovered that it had a > bad DS1620 tempsensor that always reported -55 C so I replaced it with > a thru-hole version that I happened to have some spares of. I then got > a nice 24.xxxxx C temperature readout in Lady Heather. (When I tested > the tbolt without the DS1620 it reported a temperature between -0.5 to > -1.5 C) > > Now I'm finally coming to the question: Since I'm using a thru-hole > version of the DS1620 and have to use cables between the chip and the > circuit board I could possibly extend the cables a bit so I can glue > (with a non termo-insulating glue) the chip onto the ocxo itself to > have a tighter coupling between them. Would that improve the > stability or is it better to just measure the air temperature in the > box? > > /mats > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Sun Jul 26 21:04:40 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:04:40 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Mats, welcome! As you are working already with a wired interface, I think you don't risk anything when trying it - you can not really lose anything, I think you may have a problem to see a difference because the missing reference.measurements. I do not expect a EMC problem, but it's as well not impossible. At least you will get the true OCXO's surface temperature (which should be somewhat higher due to the heat dissipation of the oven). The thermal coupling via the glue I would not see a point to think about because the plastic case of the DS1620 chip does isolate anyway more then the thin glue will do and the add. in relation to the total coupling factor will be negligable. But how you will verify the effects and judge about the results? As already mentioned by the experts perhaps nothing will be seen, because other environmental effects may mask the (small) differences... About your actual temperature readout. My experience is that TB does show more or less 7 to 10 deg. C above the environment with a stabilized box - did you have a so low room temperature? (My TBs does report actually 34 to 36 deg. C at ~24 de. C. environment) Congratulation to the already working repair solution, good luck for further actions! regards Arnold On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:14:20 +0400, Mats Engstrom wrote: >Hi, >I've been lurking on this list for a long time but now it's time to unlurk. >I don't remember if it's appropriate to introduce oneself on this >list, but I'll do it anyways. :) >I've been tinkering with electronics for some thirty odd years now - >mostly just as a hobby but also occasionally semi-professionally. >Most of my stuff is microcontroller based (AVR and/or PIC) - mostly in >assembly,but C is also ok for some projects - higher level languages >are for whimps :). I'm Swedish by birth but living and working in >Dubai in the IT/Finance industry since a couple of years. >I just bought a Thunderbolt from flyingbest at Ebay to use as a nice >timebase for my counters and signal gens. I discovered that it had a >bad DS1620 tempsensor that always reported -55 C so I replaced it with >a thru-hole version that I happened to have some spares of. I then got >a nice 24.xxxxx C temperature readout in Lady Heather. (When I tested >the tbolt without the DS1620 it reported a temperature between -0.5 to >-1.5 C) >Now I'm finally coming to the question: Since I'm using a thru-hole >version of the DS1620 and have to use cables between the chip and the >circuit board I could possibly extend the cables a bit so I can glue >(with a non termo-insulating glue) the chip onto the ocxo itself to >have a tighter coupling between them. Would that improve the >stability or is it better to just measure the air temperature in the >box? >/mats >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Sun Jul 26 21:28:28 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:28:28 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:45:40 GMT." Message-ID: <39189.1248643708@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Mark Sims writes: >But, the key word is most. Some were off over 50 feet lat/lon >and 100 meters altitude. Unless you have a known position to compare >against you may never know for sure. [...] Actually, you will, if you monitor the per-sat time residuals from the GPS. A couple of years ago, I got to play around with 10 M12M's during a burn-in test, and managed to get some hacked up code to improve the pos-hold coords, while staying in pos-hold mode. The basic trick is to project the per-sat time residuals onto their hemispherical coords (alt+azi) and determine if there is a net E/W or N/S imbalance. The E/W direction worked great simply by comparing the eastern to the western hemisphere and moving the pos-hold longitude accordingly. It is easy to see that if your pos-hold longitude is too far east, sats west of you will have a slightly longer signal path making their signals arrive a little too late, and vice versa. To test my hacked up code, I would intentionally give it a bogus pos-hold to start with, and over a month it would edge onto the right longitude. It can probably be tuned to be much faster. I never got the N/S direction working to my satisfaction, because at 55?N, I have no usable sats north of my antenna, and I never found a good way to do the N/S imbalance with only data for southern half the plane. And then I had to deliver the NTP servers and never got around to play with it again... It should be possible however, because the residuals vary strongly with altitude: almost no effect on a sat right overhead, big effect on sats near horizon (think: basic triangle geometry). Some details at: http://phk.freebsd.dk/raga/sneak/ The above observation gave me another idea which I didn't get to play with, so I don't know if it will work: If your pos-hold is not correct, your time solution will jump whenever a sat is added/deleted from the solution. It may be possible to detect the sign of these jumps, by monitoring the per-sat residuals, and use it to twist the pos-hold coords without the tedious detour over mapping and balancing hemispheres. It is important to not be fooled by near-horizon artifacts, so a high mask-angle is probably required for this to work. Somebody[tm] should really pick up this idea... Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Sun Jul 26 21:32:21 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:32:21 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Jul 2009 16:08:28 GMT." Message-ID: <39235.1248643941@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Mark Sims writes: >The graphs are scaled to the same scale factors. The jumps in the 200 foot > graph are NOT correlated to satellite constellation changes, etc. The s >elf-reported performance is degraded by a factor of around 10. Are you 100% sure it is not correlated to sat's entering and leaving the GPS solution ? It looks exactly like what I saw when I played with something similar (see last email). Remember that the GPS may not include the sat just because it clears the mask angle, in particular, when you fudged the pos-hold, and have TRAIM enabled, the sats will be thrown out near the horizon. If you can correlate the jumps with sats being accepted and thrown out, and know their azimuth at the time, you can tell which way you need to move your pos-hold coords. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 21:49:33 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:49:33 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am pretty sure. I enabled the sat count graph and those big jumps in the signals did not appear to be in sync with the satellite constellation changes. Here is a plot with the sat count graph enabled. ---------------------------------------- Are you 100% sure it is not correlated to sat's entering and leaving the GPS solution ? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 200ftsat.gif Type: image/gif Size: 27686 bytes Desc: not available URL: From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Sun Jul 26 22:04:52 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:04:52 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 26 Jul 2009 21:49:33 GMT." Message-ID: <39393.1248645892@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Mark Sims writes: >I am pretty sure. I enabled the sat count graph and those big jumps in the= > signals did not appear to be in sync with the satellite constellation chan= >ges. Here is a plot with the sat count graph enabled. But is this "sats visible" or "sats tracked" ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 22:20:12 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:20:12 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sats tracked and actively being used in the solution... ---------------------------------------- But is this "sats visible" or "sats tracked" ? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Celebrate the moment with your favorite sports pics. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_photos_072009&cat=sports From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Sun Jul 26 22:20:08 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:20:08 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One of my 5370A's does not have the reference oscillator. However, since I use it with an external reference, it has not been a problem. I understand that for some measurements (particularly if those measurements involve that same external reference in some way), it would be better to use an asynchronous internal source, but my needs have not been that elaborate yet... Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 4:33 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Fixing an HP 5370A with a missing ROM board > > > For some strange reason, 5370A's with missing ROM boards > seem to be more common than one would expect. I now know > there are at least two others... > > Another question to ask is how many 5370's are out there > without the oven oscillator option? It might be worthwhile > doing a small run of oven oscillator power supply boards. > I also noticed that the 5370 drives the oven with unregulated > power. I suspect one could get better performance by using a > regulated power supply. The 10811 spec is 2.5e-10 for a 10% > change in oven voltage so the improvement would not be a > whole bunch, but is noticeable. I did a test with a variac > and could see the effect over what my normal line voltage > daily range is. The oven power is generated via a bridge > rectifier / 16V transformer winding which generates a nominal > 22V, not much headroom to meet the 20V oscillator spec, but > doable... I see another pimp 'yo 5370 project coming. > > ---------------------------------------- > While I don't have a need for your mod... > _________________________________________________________________ > BingT brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one > place. Try it now. > http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHM TAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Sun Jul 26 22:26:11 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:26:11 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been considering making a tray for one or two 7A13 Differential Amplifier plug-ins from the Tek 7k series. The 7A13 has differential output, so aside from a few supply voltages, I need a wideband diff amp and voila. This could drive a conventional (read: limited dynamic range) DSO or anything else as needed. I have two such plug-ins and a donnor 7603 mainframe for the chassis, just need some time and more motivation or need than I can muster at the moment... Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Lux, James P (337C) > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 1:04 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] adjustable gain/offset amplifiers > > I'm looking for some amplifiers with adjustable gain (say > from 0 to 5) and offset (say +/- 5V) for general benchtop use > (e.g. you have some widget you want to test as a replacement, > but the original device had different input ranges, and > before you go redesign the rest of the circuit..) with at > least 10 MHz BW. > > SRS has something close (SIM983) but it's only 1 MHz BW.. > > I'm thinking that someone might have run across it in the > nuclear instrumentation or experimental physics area? (I > looked through the Ortec NIM module listing, but nothing lept > out). I've also run across the instrumentation amps used for > strain gages, but they're all in the few tens of kHz range. > > I'd like to avoid cobbling up something with some wideband > opamps and pots (which is what we've done in the past..). > > > James Lux, P.E. > Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight > Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 > Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 > +1(818)354-2075 phone > +1(818)393-6875 fax > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 22:32:40 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 15:32:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance References: Message-ID: Mark What this looks like is: First the phase Jumps, (Makes sense if you move the antenna or it is not where it thinks it is), This causes the Dac to jump to start correcting for the Phase error, AND that causes the OSC freq to change which is what causes the Freq measurement difference. My question is WHY does the Dac react SO fast to the Phase error, what should normally happen is that the 100 sec Time Constant, filters out and slows down any phase jumps. There would appear to be some kind of additional Feedforward effect in the PID. I did notice on my unit that the Control loop reacts quite different with a freq jump, and does not seem to go thru the same TC before it starts correcting. If you could run the same plot with the unit in hold mode, that should show which effects are cause and which are reactions. My hope was that all that Bad stuff would be filtered out by the 100 to 1000 sec TC control loop. So I wonder why it is not. I notice that your plot updates are paused, Any chance that the unit is jumping in and out of track mode or some such weird unnoticed thing like that? warren. **************** , ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" To: Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 2:49 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance I am pretty sure. I enabled the sat count graph and those big jumps in the signals did not appear to be in sync with the satellite constellation changes. Here is a plot with the sat count graph enabled. ---------------------------------------- Are you 100% sure it is not correlated to sat's entering and leaving the GPS solution ? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 22:37:09 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:37:09 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Jul 26 22:43:30 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:43:30 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy and Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Heather pauses updates when you read in a log file. That way you don't mix old data with incoming data. You can read in a log then re-enable updates, but you probably don't want to do that without resetting the data queue. ---------------------------------------- I notice that your plot updates are paused, Any chance that the unit is jumping in and out of track mode or some such weird unnoticed thing like that? _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Sun Jul 26 22:50:30 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 17:50:30 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3438627BBF09498DAF3A526E78CEDFEC@d400> The SMT package was soldered directly to the PWB while I understand the DIP package is up in the air, that will affect the thermal time constant between the PWB and the chip quite a bit. I think I would glue the DIP on the PWB dead-bug style myself. That would get you close to the original configuration. Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mark Sims > Sent: Sunday, July 26, 2009 5:37 PM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt temperature measuring > > > From my poking and prodding, I think the temperature sensor > serves two purposes. First as an environmental alarm. > Second as compensation for temperature effects on the system > as a whole. As such, you want it near where it was. > Sticking it on the oscillator would mask a lot of the ambient > temp changes that it is making adjustments for. > > Another thing to consider is the difference in the thermal > mass / time constant of a DIP package and the SO-8 package. > The DIP will respond more slowly to temperature changes. It > is not known how that might affect the oscillator > disciplining algorithm. > > ---------------------------------------- > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Jul 27 01:24:41 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 13:24:41 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6D01D9.9010501@xtra.co.nz> Joe Joe Gwinn wrote: > Bruce, > > At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 >> From: Bruce Griffiths >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >> signals by I+Q processing >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> >> >> If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid >> the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs >> and the mixer preamps. >> >> Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? >> Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower >> bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs >> that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? >> The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling >> is around -150dBFS/Hz. >> The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) >> capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. > > It strikes me that one can do a double conversion here, with one > conversion done in analog hardware, the other in a DSP. > > The analog mixer would go from megahertz to say 100 KHz or 30 KHz, and > this kilohertz signal would be digitized, yielding a stream of I+Q > samples. > > The resulting stream of digital I+Q samples would then be numerically > mixed down to 1 Hz, and the relative phase between the two 1 Hz > signals would be measured. > > This two-step approach should neatly sidestep the flicker-noise issue. > > As for the ADC yielding I+Q samples, given the great oversampling > possible with current ADCs, one can use a single ADC and > mathematically generate the I+Q streams. There are many methods, > invented because high=performance ADCs are very expensive, and because > it is difficult to find sufficiently well matched pairs of such ADCs. > That approach should also make it simpler to use a DDS to generate the offset frequency as one can use one of the DDS output frequencies that has no anharmonic spurs. It should even be possible to use triple balanced mixers (e.g.VAY-1, SRA-220, TFM-12MH, SAY-1) if the first IF frequency is high enough. > > Joe Gwinn > Bruce From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Jul 27 04:46:54 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:46:54 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6D313E.9080409@rubidium.dyndns.org> Joe, Joe Gwinn wrote: > Magnus, > > At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 03:00:28 +0200 >> From: Magnus Danielson >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >> signals by I+Q processing >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> >> Joe Gwinn wrote: >>> Magnus, >>> >>> At 4:01 PM +0000 7/25/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >>> It would be nice, but I need to think about this. I'm not sure that >>> you >>> don't have to use a real physical delay out in the analog hardware. >> >> If you play the vector/phasor game you know that while you shift >> frequency, you don't shift phase, so whatever phase-change you want to >> apply to the carrier level (10 MHz) you can apply to the mixed down case. > > I haven't had time to play the math gain, but I suspect that you are right. You really should, as it is the basis for the DMTD to start with. Let X(t) and Y(t) be the the first and second channel input signals to the DMTD system. Let Z(t) be the transfer oscillator signal. X(t) = A_x * exp(phi_x(t) + i*2*pi*f_x*t) Y(t) = A_y * exp(phi_y(t) + i*2*pi*f_y*t) Z(t) = A_z * exp(phi_z(t) + i*2*pi*f_z*t) Now, we mix down to the beat signals U(t) and V(t) U(t) = X(t) * Z(t)* V(t) = Y(t) * Z(t)* Notice that Z(t) is complex conjugate (i.e. imaginary term inverted) and that exp(a)* = exp(-a) so... U(t) = A_x * A_z * exp(phi_x(t) - phi_z(t) + i*2*pi*(f_x - f_z)*t) V(t) = A_y * A_z * exp(phi_y(t) - phi_z(t) + i*2*pi*(f_y - f_z)*t) If f_x and f_y is close in frequency and f_z is selected to be close, the f_x - f_z can be made a low frequency. Notice how the phase remains unchanged, but if we convert phase into time for the two systems, a degree of phase would take a considerable amount of time in the beat note, which is the gain of the beat frequency method. Now, to cancel the transfer oscillator we do W(t) = U(t) * V(t)* W(t) = A_x * A_y * A_z^2 * exp(phi_x(t) - phi_y(t) + i*2*pi*(f_x - f_y)*t) Thus only the amplitude remains of the transfer oscillator (and thus amplitude noise). If the last correlation is done with TI-counter, then part of the transfer oscillator phase noise will fail to cancel properly. >> Recall, the problem with not full cancelation of the transfer oscillator >> is due to the time-difference of the beat notes and that the ZCD >> detectors by design adapts to what it percieves to be 0 degree and that >> the the time occurence of this is different between the two beat note >> channels. >> >> Now, if we phase shift at the beat note frequency we can make that >> channels beat-note time occurance in the ZCD to be come arbitrarilly >> shifted and thus close the time-difference considerably until they occur >> too close in which case we get unwanted degradation due to cross-talk. >> >> Phase-shifting at the carrier frequency is just to achieve the same >> thing, infact that is doing it one step away from where it is expected >> to occur. If we do this in stable digital domain, there is less >> stability issues. >> >> It should be noted that such shifting needs to be continously monitored >> and adjusted as the carrier frequencies drift appart. Any adjustments >> needs to be compensated or otherwise phase-steps will be introduced into >> the datastream. A carefull correction actually compensate for both gain >> and phase shifts. > > I would set up a tracking loop to keep the two 1 Hz signals coincident, > and the loop implementation would report how much shift war required to > achieve this coincidence. Exactly. >> >> The postprocessing would then slowly tune the I/Q phase and keep a >> phase >>>> adjustment track such that post-correlation could turn it back for >>>> proper phase-trace. >>> >>> But, unlike ZCD-triggered counters, there is no disadvantage or >>> difficulty if the phase difference is adjusted exactly to zero, where >>> the two 1 Hz sinewaves coincide. >> >> Depends on your post-processing. If you attempt to emulate ZCD in >> firmware, then you get that result. If you rather do the >> phase-subtraction processing no phase-shifting is needed as it is done >> sample-for-sample and the issue is gone and you have a clear >> phase-difference record that builds. > > Yes. > > >> >> An alternative approach is to use the Costas tracking loop as Bruce >>>> suggested. >>> >>> A Costas loop is far more complex, but they do work well. Given near >>> constant phase delay, don't know if a Costas loop is worth the trouble. >>> >>> The Costas loop will not by itself solve the problem of >>> transfer-oscillator noise. >> >> Costas loops isn't that expensive these days, rather they are hidden >> away in all kinds of places. If you do that processing in digital >> domain, you can with proper pre-staging even do advanced phase >> detectors such as arctan(y/x) in real time and get away with it. > > Yes. My reaction to Costas Loops is simply that they may be overkill > for this application, and will no doubt bring their own set of issues to > be solved. But it's a tradeoff for sure. Nothing we can't handle. >> >> Regardless this first stage of digital processing can be done in a >> FPGA >>>> frontend and bring the resulting signal bandwidth into very reasonable >>>> rates, just as for a GPS receiver. >>> >>> Yes. Is 0.01 Hz slow enough? >> >> That is probably too slow actually. > > How fast will the phase offset between 1 Hz signals change? I was > thinking of a 100-second loop constant, but 10 seconds would also work. Need to think about it. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Jul 27 04:53:19 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 06:53:19 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6D32BF.9020202@rubidium.dyndns.org> Joe Gwinn wrote: > Bruce, > > At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 >> From: Bruce Griffiths >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >> signals by I+Q processing >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> >> >> >> If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid >> the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs >> and the mixer preamps. >> >> Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? >> Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower >> bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs >> that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? >> The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling >> is around -150dBFS/Hz. >> The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) >> capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. > > It strikes me that one can do a double conversion here, with one > conversion done in analog hardware, the other in a DSP. > > The analog mixer would go from megahertz to say 100 KHz or 30 KHz, and > this kilohertz signal would be digitized, yielding a stream of I+Q samples. > > The resulting stream of digital I+Q samples would then be numerically > mixed down to 1 Hz, and the relative phase between the two 1 Hz signals > would be measured. > > This two-step approach should neatly sidestep the flicker-noise issue. I just proposed that method to avoid flicker. > As for the ADC yielding I+Q samples, given the great oversampling > possible with current ADCs, one can use a single ADC and mathematically > generate the I+Q streams. There are many methods, invented because > high=performance ADCs are very expensive, and because it is difficult to > find sufficiently well matched pairs of such ADCs. Well, it's just like normal radio when first LO just brings the frequency into range and second LO does I/Q separation. Cheers, Magnus From warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com Mon Jul 27 05:31:20 2009 From: warrensjmail-one at yahoo.com (WarrenS) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 22:31:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy to improve Thunderbolt performance References: Message-ID: Does anyone know how accurate Google map is for Lat & Lon in California? I can see my GPS antenna & measure it's position to within about 1 ft on their Map. Any reason to believe that is more accurate than the Tbolt survey, which shows a 1 Ft by 3 Ft difference? Can anyone tell me how I can get a better height reading, or improve & verify the Tbolt survey number which seems to vary as much as 10 ft each time. warren From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Jul 27 05:51:59 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:51:59 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: <4A6D01D9.9010501@xtra.co.nz> References: <4A6D01D9.9010501@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <4A6D407F.7080608@xtra.co.nz> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Joe > > Joe Gwinn wrote: > >> Bruce, >> >> At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: >> >>> Message: 3 >>> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 >>> From: Bruce Griffiths >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD >>> signals by I+Q processing >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> >>> >>> >>> If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then one can avoid >>> the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter between the ADCs >>> and the mixer preamps. >>> >>> Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? >>> Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower >>> bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs >>> that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? >>> The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling >>> is around -150dBFS/Hz. >>> The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) >>> capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. >>> >> It strikes me that one can do a double conversion here, with one >> conversion done in analog hardware, the other in a DSP. >> >> The analog mixer would go from megahertz to say 100 KHz or 30 KHz, and >> this kilohertz signal would be digitized, yielding a stream of I+Q >> samples. >> >> The resulting stream of digital I+Q samples would then be numerically >> mixed down to 1 Hz, and the relative phase between the two 1 Hz >> signals would be measured. >> >> This two-step approach should neatly sidestep the flicker-noise issue. >> >> As for the ADC yielding I+Q samples, given the great oversampling >> possible with current ADCs, one can use a single ADC and >> mathematically generate the I+Q streams. There are many methods, >> invented because high=performance ADCs are very expensive, and because >> it is difficult to find sufficiently well matched pairs of such ADCs. >> >> > That approach should also make it simpler to use a DDS to generate the > offset frequency as one can use one of the DDS output frequencies that > has no anharmonic spurs. > It should even be possible to use triple balanced mixers (e.g.VAY-1, > SRA-220, TFM-12MH, SAY-1) if the first IF frequency is high enough. > >> Joe Gwinn >> >> > > Bruce > > Correction: After actually viewing the datasheets rather than relying on the IF spec not extending to DC it turns out that only The VAY-1 and SRA-220 are triple balanced mixers. There are other Minicircuits triple balanced mixers but their IF response doesnt extend low enough in frequency to allow use of an IF frequency that is < 1MHz. Bruce From brooke at pacific.net Mon Jul 27 14:04:02 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:04:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy to improve Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6DB3D2.5090505@pacific.net> Hi Warren: I've found Google Earth to be very accurate, but Google maps not so accurate. You can see the elevation by moving the cursor over the spot. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com WarrenS wrote: > Does anyone know how accurate Google map is for Lat & Lon in California? > I can see my GPS antenna & measure it's position to within about 1 ft on their Map. > Any reason to believe that is more accurate than the Tbolt survey, which shows a 1 Ft by 3 Ft difference? > > Can anyone tell me how I can get a better height reading, or improve & verify the Tbolt survey number which seems to vary as much as 10 ft each time. > > warren > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From gwinn at raytheon.com Mon Jul 27 14:53:43 2009 From: gwinn at raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 10:53:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals by I+Q processing In-Reply-To: <4A6D32BF.9020202@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <4A6D32BF.9020202@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: Magnus, time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 07/27/2009 12:53:19 AM: > From: > > Magnus Danielson > > To: > > Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Date: > > 07/27/2009 12:56 AM > > Subject: > > Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD signals > by I+Q processing > > Sent by: > > time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > > Joe Gwinn wrote: > > Bruce, > > > > At 1:00 AM +0000 7/26/09, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote: > >> Message: 3 > >> Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 12:29:24 +1200 > >> From: Bruce Griffiths > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Measuring phase shift between 1 Hz DMTD > >> signals by I+Q processing > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >> > >> > >> > >> If one uses a mixer output frequency of several kHz then onecan avoid > >> the flicker noise region if one uses a high pass filter > between the ADCs > >> and the mixer preamps. > >> > >> Does such a system have a performance advantage over direct RF sampling? > >> Perhaps it does if and only if the phase noise floor of the lower > >> bandwidth ADCs that are used is lower than the noise floor of the ADCs > >> that would be required to sample the RF signals directly? > >> The noise floor of state of the art ADCs suitable for direct RF sampling > >> is around -150dBFS/Hz. > >> The noise floor of "typical" high resolution ADC(AD7762, AD7641) > >> capable of sampling at around 1MSPS or so appear to be similar. > > > > It strikes me that one can do a double conversion here, with one > > conversion done in analog hardware, the other in a DSP. > > > > The analog mixer would go from megahertz to say 100 KHz or 30KHz, and > > this kilohertz signal would be digitized, yielding a stream of I+Q samples. > > > > The resulting stream of digital I+Q samples would then be numerically > > mixed down to 1 Hz, and the relative phase between the two 1 Hz signals > > would be measured. > > > > This two-step approach should neatly sidestep the flicker-noise issue. > > I just proposed that method to avoid flicker. Ahh. Now I see it. Yes you did, in a reply to Bruce on 25 July 2009. > > As for the ADC yielding I+Q samples, given the great oversampling > > possible with current ADCs, one can use a single ADC and mathematically > > generate the I+Q streams. There are many methods, invented because > > high=performance ADCs are very expensive, and because it is difficult to > > find sufficiently well matched pairs of such ADCs. > > Well, it's just like normal radio when first LO just brings the > frequency into range and second LO does I/Q separation. Exactly. Joe Gwinn From jmfranke at cox.net Mon Jul 27 15:05:46 2009 From: jmfranke at cox.net (jmfranke) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:05:46 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Backup battery power for Jupiter receiver References: Message-ID: Has anyone successfully used the onboard super capacitor or external battery backup? I added the capacitor, but I still lose the memory contents when I repower the receiver. I tried connecting a 4-5V external supply to the battery backup (pin 3), but the pin draws 100mA. John From had at to-way.com Mon Jul 27 15:47:02 2009 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 08:47:02 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP NGOComm Message-ID: <20090727154706.2887DCBCD38@mail-in02.adhost.com> Hi all, Has anyone discovered any documentation for the HP NGOComm program. It appears to have been specifically written for the HP E1938A Oscillator. Thanks, Had, K7MLR [] -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ngo.gif Type: image/gif Size: 16389 bytes Desc: not available URL: From cfharris at erols.com Mon Jul 27 15:51:32 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 11:51:32 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Backup battery power for Jupiter receiver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6DCD04.70708@erols.com> Sounds to me like you are driving the whole receiver with the backup battery. Typically, memory backup circuitry uses a pair of diodes to isolate the +5V supply and the backup battery from each other. Perhaps when they left the super cap off of the circuit board, they installed a jumper wire where the +5V isolation diode would need to be? -Chuck Harris jmfranke wrote: > Has anyone successfully used the onboard super capacitor or external > battery backup? I added the capacitor, but I still lose the memory > contents when I repower the receiver. I tried connecting a 4-5V > external supply to the battery backup (pin 3), but the pin draws 100mA. > > John > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Jul 27 16:18:36 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 09:18:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy to improve Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: <4A6DB3D2.5090505@pacific.net> References: <4A6DB3D2.5090505@pacific.net> Message-ID: From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Brooke Clarke Sent: Monday, July 27, 2009 7:04 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Position accuracy to improve Thunderbolt performance Hi Warren: I've found Google Earth to be very accurate, but Google maps not so accurate. You can see the elevation by moving the cursor over the spot. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com WarrenS wrote: > Does anyone know how accurate Google map is for Lat & Lon in California? --- Anytime you're talking a few meters or finer resolution, you need to start asking about things like which geoid model and datum are they using. Your GPS uses WGS84, but google whatever may use something else. (I'm sure it's documented somewhere) There's also the age of the photo/map they're using. My house moves northwest at a few cm a year (being on the pacific plate side of the San Andreas fault), so if the image that Google is using is 5 years old, you're already getting up towards that 1 foot precision in the original post. And, what's the original source map that's used.. For instance, a lot of global or national atlas style online maps are based on the 1:250k USGS maps which according to "National Map Accuracy Standards" are accurate to about 100 meters (that is, a feature on the map is within "one pencil point" of where it should be). I'm pretty sure Google is better than that, but if they're using 1:24000 quads as the base map, for instance, that's still only good to 10 meter-ish (after you've dealt with datums, etc.). So, when they take the imagery and "adjust" it to fit the map, there could be meter scale distortions, and it would still be considered "good enough". This is particularly an issue when there is significant vertical relief, because you've got a flat image that has to be "mapped" onto a 3D surface. You can see this when you span a photo boundary on Google maps.. things like sidewalks don't always perfectly line up. From holrum at hotmail.com Mon Jul 27 17:35:04 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 17:35:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Position accuracy to improve Thunderbolt performance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Google uses the WGS-84 datum. I have done a few tests of Google Maps accuracy using locations known to mm levels and it tends to be VERY accurate around here. Basically, you can't tell the difference in position at the level of resolution provided. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From brooke at pacific.net Mon Jul 27 23:55:22 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 16:55:22 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up Message-ID: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> Hi: At power up the HP 3458A briefly says TESTING RAM and all the panel pixels are on then displays ISOLAOR DTACK. The repair manual says: 201 Outguard Controller A5. The A6 Outguard pwr supply shows 5.13 for both of the 5 volt supplies, right in the middle of the acceptable range. The +15 red wire at P3 reads 14.0, but I don't see a spec for it. Is there any component level information on these DVMs? -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com From holrum at hotmail.com Tue Jul 28 00:08:33 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:08:33 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think that there were any user service manuals released on these meters. DTACK is "data transfer acknowledge". On Motorola processors it used to to control access to the bus. DTACK is driven low by a bus device once it gets or sends the data. Back in the old days a "DTACK grounded" system was one that ran without any wait states. There was even a magazine by that name. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Bing? brings you maps, menus, and reviews organized in one place. Try it now. http://www.bing.com/search?q=restaurants&form=MLOGEN&publ=WLHMTAG&crea=TXT_MLOGEN_Local_Local_Restaurants_1x1 From david.kirkby at onetel.net Tue Jul 28 00:32:07 2009 From: david.kirkby at onetel.net (David Kirkby) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:32:07 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz? Message-ID: <286f7bad0907271732sf0dbc52j4bce2c0052eea9e8@mail.gmail.com> A friend of mine has a GPS receiver with a Stanford PRS 10 rubidium as a frequency standard he uses for his test equipment - mainly signal generators, spectrum analysers etc. Most kit takes a 10 MHz sine wave. Some of his kit needs 1 MHz and other bits 5 MHz. What is the cleanest way to derive these frequencies from 10 MHz. I would suspect a number like 10, which is not a power of 2, would present more of a problem. I don't know what kit he has that needs 1 or 5 MHz,so I don't know how fussy it is. Dave From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Jul 28 01:01:22 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 13:01:22 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz? In-Reply-To: <286f7bad0907271732sf0dbc52j4bce2c0052eea9e8@mail.gmail.com> References: <286f7bad0907271732sf0dbc52j4bce2c0052eea9e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A6E4DE2.6010409@xtra.co.nz> David Kirkby wrote: > A friend of mine has a GPS receiver with a Stanford PRS 10 rubidium as > a frequency standard he uses for his test equipment - mainly signal > generators, spectrum analysers etc. Most kit takes a 10 MHz sine wave. > > Some of his kit needs 1 MHz and other bits 5 MHz. What is the cleanest > way to derive these frequencies from 10 MHz. I would suspect a number > like 10, which is not a power of 2, would present more of a problem. > > I don't know what kit he has that needs 1 or 5 MHz,so I don't know how > fussy it is. > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > David High level injection locking of an oscillator with a suitable topology has been made to work well. The phase noise of the free running oscillator isn't too critical as the high level injection locked oscillator acts as a complete very wideband 1st order PLL with the pahse offset from the reference determined by the oscillator tank tuning. Alternatively one can use the more general form of the regenerative divider which has an output frequency other than the standard fin/2 or 3fin/2. To produce an output of fin/10, the regeneration loop needs to ensure that both 0.1*fin and 0.9*fin signals are fed back to the mixer. Bruce From gbusg at comcast.net Tue Jul 28 03:44:49 2009 From: gbusg at comcast.net (Greg Burnett) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2009 21:44:49 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> Message-ID: <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> Brooke wrote: At power up the HP 3458A briefly says TESTING RAM and all the panel pixels are on then displays ISOLAOR DTACK. The repair manual says: 201 Outguard Controller A5. --------clip-------- Hi Brooke, The component-level packet is Agilent p/n 03458-90033. https://onlinestore.tm.agilent.com/Agilent/en/US/partnerMkt/onlinestore?cmd=eFAPCatProductDetail What's the p/n and Rev of the A5 outguard controller board in your particular box, and, if it has DS1220Y & DS1235Y Dallas Semiconductor Nonvolatile Rams, what are the date codes on those I.C.s? After the ISOLATOR DTACK error, did you hit "key shift blue" + "Error" keys to see if there are additional errors hidden behind the first? You have to keep hitting that key sequence until you've read all errors (if there are more than one). After you've read the last error, can you hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to get the DMM to actually function? Or is it locked-up at that point? 73, Greg From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Tue Jul 28 06:21:14 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:21:14 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 28 Jul 2009 00:08:33 GMT." Message-ID: <4902.1248762074@critter.freebsd.dk> In message , Mark Sims writes: >DTACK is "data transfer acknowledge". Try to unplug and reconnect the plastic fiber-optic cables ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From gbusg at comcast.net Tue Jul 28 07:12:13 2009 From: gbusg at comcast.net (Greg Burnett) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:12:13 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> Message-ID: <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> Brooke: ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in order to read the next error message (if any). You keep clearing the error messages until there are none left. Be sure to use the left & right arrows to scroll through a given error message's complete text line. Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom side) is worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still function (except for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if the rear optical cables are disconnected. However you will get an isolator error if the front optical cables are disconnected. But I'm not sure if it will be your error 201 or 200 (Isolator does not respond). Let us know what you find. Greg From iovane at inwind.it Tue Jul 28 08:25:40 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:25:40 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status Message-ID: On July 25, 2009 don.key at ntlworld.com wrote >The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to China) >for a replacement. As I didn\'t have a heatsink, I didn\'t want to leave it >any longer. Besides, if it doesn\'t lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it >is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts >started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the >frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. >Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? I had exactly the same problem with one of my units, but fixed it. In LPRO the voltage starts sweeping around 6.2V and goes up and down between two preset limits (about 0.5V and 12.5V) until lock occurs. Comparator circuits do sense the crossing of voltage limits and invert sweeping. Depending on what comparator fails, the unit remains in deadlock around 0V or 14.3V. I have had both cased with two units. In the case of 0V the faulty component was resistor R230 (100K, bottom of pcb). It reads onboard about 23K when faulty and about 18K when good. Replaced R230, the unit now works. In the case of 14.3V the faulty component was R215 (100K, bottom of pcb). It reads onboard >1Mohm when faulty. Replaced it, and the unit works. I have several LPRO, and all of them do lock in about 3.5 mins at ambient temperature of 20 ?C or so. I use heatsinks. Bye, Antonio I8IOV From arie.schellaars at yahoo.com Tue Jul 28 08:40:16 2009 From: arie.schellaars at yahoo.com (arie schellaars) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 01:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz? In-Reply-To: <286f7bad0907271732sf0dbc52j4bce2c0052eea9e8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <639073.42036.qm@web46410.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi people I too needed a 1MHz reference to drive my HP5245L counter. I simply fed the t.bolt's 10 MHz output into a single transistor amp to obtain 5V p.p and divided down using a TTL 7490 chip. This I followed with a six stage Chebichev? 1Mhz low pass filter to "knock-off" the rough "corner" spots and this fed into the counter. It all seems to work with accurate readings from a known frequency source out of the counter.? It's simple but perhaps not too elegant Cheers Arie VK3DBF --- On Tue, 28/7/09, David Kirkby wrote: From: David Kirkby Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz? To: time-nuts at febo.com Received: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009, 12:32 AM A friend of mine has a GPS receiver with a Stanford PRS 10 rubidium as a frequency standard he uses for his test equipment - mainly signal generators, spectrum analysers etc. Most kit takes a 10 MHz sine wave. Some of his kit needs 1 MHz and other bits 5 MHz. What is the cleanest way to derive these frequencies from 10 MHz. I would suspect a number like 10, which is not a power of 2, would present more of a problem. I don't know what kit he has that needs 1 or 5 MHz,so I don't know how fussy it is. Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail From jltran at worldnet.att.net Tue Jul 28 11:47:13 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:47:13 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? In-Reply-To: <639073.42036.qm@web46410.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <44B96C2F9E9844CEAE68A2D3E64B4E99@S0028384766> If you want a 'vintage' solution, the HP 5087A can be configured to take a single 5 or 10 MHz and divide/multiply it to 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and even 0.1 MHz then feed that to various output amplifiers of 10, 5, 1 or 0.1 for up to 12 total outputs of your configuration. However, you might be looking for a long time to find all the right cards. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of arie schellaars Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 3:40 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? Hi people I too needed a 1MHz reference to drive my HP5245L counter. I simply fed the t.bolt's 10 MHz output into a single transistor amp to obtain 5V p.p and divided down using a TTL 7490 chip. This I followed with a six stage Chebichev? 1Mhz low pass filter to "knock-off" the rough "corner" spots and this fed into the counter. It all seems to work with accurate readings from a known frequency source out of the counter.? It's simple but perhaps not too elegant Cheers Arie VK3DBF --- On Tue, 28/7/09, David Kirkby wrote: From: David Kirkby Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz? To: time-nuts at febo.com Received: Tuesday, 28 July, 2009, 12:32 AM A friend of mine has a GPS receiver with a Stanford PRS 10 rubidium as a frequency standard he uses for his test equipment - mainly signal generators, spectrum analysers etc. Most kit takes a 10 MHz sine wave. Some of his kit needs 1 MHz and other bits 5 MHz. What is the cleanest way to derive these frequencies from 10 MHz. I would suspect a number like 10, which is not a power of 2, would present more of a problem. I don't know what kit he has that needs 1 or 5 MHz,so I don't know how fussy it is. Dave _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Access Yahoo!7 Mail on your mobile. Anytime. Anywhere. Show me how: http://au.mobile.yahoo.com/mail _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Jul 28 13:08:22 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 06:08:22 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? In-Reply-To: <44B96C2F9E9844CEAE68A2D3E64B4E99@S0028384766> Message-ID: On 7/28/09 4:47 AM, "J. L. Trantham" wrote: > If you want a 'vintage' solution, the HP 5087A can be configured to take a > single 5 or 10 MHz and divide/multiply it to 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and even > 0.1 MHz then feed that to various output amplifiers of 10, 5, 1 or 0.1 for > up to 12 total outputs of your configuration. However, you might be looking > for a long time to find all the right cards. > > Joe > Symmetricom sells a box that does the same, oddly called the 5087B. Yes, almost certainly a few kilobucks. And I don't think it will do any rate changes. From don.key at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 28 15:22:11 2009 From: don.key at ntlworld.com (Don Key) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:22:11 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E061F347393484AA473A87C75977861@JimPC> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "time-nuts" Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status On July 25, 2009 don.key at ntlworld.com wrote >The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to >China) >for a replacement. As I didn\'t have a heatsink, I didn\'t want to leave it >any longer. Besides, if it doesn\'t lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it >is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts >started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the >frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. >Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? I had exactly the same problem with one of my units, but fixed it. In LPRO the voltage starts sweeping around 6.2V and goes up and down between two preset limits (about 0.5V and 12.5V) until lock occurs. Comparator circuits do sense the crossing of voltage limits and invert sweeping. Depending on what comparator fails, the unit remains in deadlock around 0V or 14.3V. I have had both cased with two units. In the case of 0V the faulty component was resistor R230 (100K, bottom of pcb). It reads onboard about 23K when faulty and about 18K when good. Replaced R230, the unit now works. In the case of 14.3V the faulty component was R215 (100K, bottom of pcb). It reads onboard >1Mohm when faulty. Replaced it, and the unit works. I have several LPRO, and all of them do lock in about 3.5 mins at ambient temperature of 20 ?C or so. I use heatsinks. Bye, Antonio I8IOV I was tempted to open up the faulty unit, but thought it was best to return it ASAP for a replacement (even though it cost me ?6.51 postage). If it happens again, I will know where to look first! Cheers ...Jim From w1ksz at earthlink.net Tue Jul 28 16:20:44 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:20:44 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? Message-ID: <12691958.1248798045135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> There are two units now listed on the "evil empire", but it is not clear what is in them. At least I cannot fathom it. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: "Lux, James P (337C)" >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 6:08 AM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? > > > > >On 7/28/09 4:47 AM, "J. L. Trantham" wrote: > >> If you want a 'vintage' solution, the HP 5087A can be configured to take a >> single 5 or 10 MHz and divide/multiply it to 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and even >> 0.1 MHz then feed that to various output amplifiers of 10, 5, 1 or 0.1 for >> up to 12 total outputs of your configuration. However, you might be looking >> for a long time to find all the right cards. >> >> Joe >> > >Symmetricom sells a box that does the same, oddly called the 5087B. Yes, >almost certainly a few kilobucks. And I don't think it will do any rate >changes. > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Tue Jul 28 16:32:37 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:32:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? In-Reply-To: <12691958.1248798045135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12691958.1248798045135.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard W. Solomon Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:21 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from10 MHz? There are two units now listed on the "evil empire", but it is not clear what is in them. At least I cannot fathom it. 73, Dick, W1KSZ > >On 7/28/09 4:47 AM, "J. L. Trantham" wrote: > >> If you want a 'vintage' solution, the HP 5087A can be configured to take a >> single 5 or 10 MHz and divide/multiply it to 10 MHz, 5 MHz, 1 MHz and even >> 0.1 MHz then feed that to various output amplifiers of 10, 5, 1 or 0.1 for >> up to 12 total outputs of your configuration. However, you might be looking >> for a long time to find all the right cards. >> >> Joe >> Hah.. nobody can. There's theoretically a sticker on the 5087A that tells you what modules are in it, but every one I've seen has had modules that are different than the sticker, and some sort of cryptic pencil scrawl on a piece of tape, or the back of the box or the front panel telling what modules are where. And it's inevitably wrong. There's slots for three input modules (A,B,C), and 10 output modules (1-10), and they're all optional and easily reconfigurable. Everytime, I wind up taking the cover off and actually looking at what's in there. From w1ksz at earthlink.net Tue Jul 28 16:57:23 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 09:57:23 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] HP NGOComm Message-ID: <21266454.1248800244109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I also have one of those HP oscillators and would be interested in any documentation concerning NGOComm. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: Had >Sent: Jul 27, 2009 8:47 AM >To: "time-nuts-febo.com" >Cc: "hp agilent equipment-yahoogroups.com" >Subject: [time-nuts] HP NGOComm > > >Hi all, > >Has anyone discovered any documentation for the HP NGOComm program. >It appears to have been specifically written for the HP E1938A Oscillator. > >Thanks, >Had, K7MLR > > >[] From w1ksz at earthlink.net Tue Jul 28 17:01:08 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 10:01:08 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status Message-ID: <29989835.1248800468954.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> My unit's Lamp Voltage does swing up and down until it locks. It just takes longer than the 3.5 - 4 minutes the manual says. I checked the Lamp Voltage when Locked and it is 9.4 vdc. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: Don Key >Sent: Jul 28, 2009 8:22 AM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: "time-nuts" >Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 9:25 AM >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] LPRO-101 Status > > >On July 25, 2009 don.key at ntlworld.com wrote > >>The second one would not lock within 15 minutes, so I returned it (to >>China) >>for a replacement. As I didn\'t have a heatsink, I didn\'t want to leave it >>any longer. Besides, if it doesn\'t lock within 5 minutes, then I assume it >>is faulty. Instead of the frequency sweeping up & down, the Xtal volts >>started at around 6V2, then swept down to 0V & stayed there, leaving the >>frequency about 180Hz low, as seen on a HP 8591E analyzer. > >>Out of interest, did your unit sweep up & down, or was it similar to mine? > >I had exactly the same problem with one of my units, but fixed it. >In LPRO the voltage starts sweeping around 6.2V and goes up and down between >two preset limits (about 0.5V and 12.5V) until lock occurs. >Comparator circuits do sense the crossing of voltage limits and >invert sweeping. Depending on what comparator fails, the unit remains >in deadlock around 0V or 14.3V. >I have had both cased with two units. >In the case of 0V the faulty component was resistor R230 (100K, bottom of >pcb). >It reads onboard about 23K when faulty and about 18K when good. Replaced >R230, >the unit now works. >In the case of 14.3V the faulty component was R215 (100K, bottom of pcb). >It reads onboard >1Mohm when faulty. Replaced it, and the unit works. > >I have several LPRO, and all of them do lock in about 3.5 mins at ambient >temperature of 20 ?C or so. I use heatsinks. > >Bye, >Antonio I8IOV > > >I was tempted to open up the faulty unit, but thought it was best to return >it ASAP for a replacement (even though it cost me ?6.51 postage). >If it happens again, I will know where to look first! >Cheers > >...Jim > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From brooke at pacific.net Tue Jul 28 18:17:37 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:17:37 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> Message-ID: <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> Hi Greg: I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Greg Burnett wrote: > Brooke: > > ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would hit "key > shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in order to read the > next error message (if any). You keep clearing the error messages until > there are none left. Be sure to use the left & right arrows to scroll > through a given error message's complete text line. > > Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom side) is > worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still function (except > for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if the rear optical cables > are disconnected. However you will get an isolator error if the front > optical cables are disconnected. But I'm not sure if it will be your error > 201 or 200 (Isolator does not respond). > > Let us know what you find. > > Greg > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From gbusg at comcast.net Tue Jul 28 18:33:27 2009 From: gbusg at comcast.net (Greg Burnett) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:33:27 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02><065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> Message-ID: <004601ca0fb1$e6ecff40$6501a8c0@gb02> Brooke wrote: I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK -----clip----- Hi Brooke, Sorry, my mistake. Try Blue, then "Clear". That should clear your current message and you can then see the next consecutive message (if any). Repeat that until there are no more messages. Use the left / right arrows to scroll horizontally through the text of each message. Greg From richard at karlquist.com Tue Jul 28 18:36:35 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 11:36:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] HP NGOComm In-Reply-To: <21266454.1248800244109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.n et> References: <21266454.1248800244109.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <9347686c762052cac96889ae4678c324.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> There was never any documentation of the NGOComm program, because of the proverbial "lack of resources". The author of the program trained a few people, and they trained others. I used to know how to use it, but it has been 10 years since I used it. Rick Karlquist N6RK Richard W. Solomon wrote: > I also have one of those HP oscillators and would be interested in any > documentation concerning NGOComm. > > Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Had >>Sent: Jul 27, 2009 8:47 AM >>To: "time-nuts-febo.com" >>Cc: "hp agilent equipment-yahoogroups.com" >> >>Subject: [time-nuts] HP NGOComm >> >> >>Hi all, >> >>Has anyone discovered any documentation for the HP NGOComm program. >>It appears to have been specifically written for the HP E1938A >> Oscillator. >> >>Thanks, >>Had, K7MLR >> >> >>[] > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From wpxs472 at gmail.com Tue Jul 28 19:28:31 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 14:28:31 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] An easy to generate 5, 1 MHz from 10 MHz Message-ID: A cheap and easy way is to use a 74HC14, 74HC390. Capacitively couple the 10 MHz into one of the 6 inputs of the HC14 to square it up, out of that into one of the divide by 2 inputs of the HC390, that goes to another input of the HC14 to act as a buffer which provides the 5 MHz output. Next, into the divide by 5 input of the HC390 to give 1 MHz out. This also goes through one section of the HC14. There is another section of the HC390 if you wish to divide down farther. I made one of these to feed an old Marconi service monitor that requires 1 MHz instead of 10 MHz as an external reference input. I also have 5 MHz and 100KHz available if I need them. True, the HC14 isn't a proper buffer meant to drive low impedance loads, but it seems to work OK for me. I laid it out in Eagle and routed out a board with the T-Tech here at work but there is no reason you couldn't do it with wire on perf board. From rexa at sonic.net Tue Jul 28 19:56:45 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 12:56:45 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] An easy to generate 5, 1 MHz from 10 MHz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6F57FD.6080305@sonic.net> John Green wrote: >A cheap and easy way is to use a 74HC14, 74HC390. Capacitively couple the 10 >MHz into one of the 6 inputs of the HC14 to square it up, out of that into >one of the divide by 2 inputs of the HC390, that goes to another input of >the HC14 to act as a buffer which provides the 5 MHz output. Next, into the >divide by 5 input of the HC390 to give 1 MHz out. This also goes through one >section of the HC14. There is another section of the HC390 if you wish to >divide down farther. I made one of these to feed an old Marconi service >monitor that requires 1 MHz instead of 10 MHz as an external reference >input. I also have 5 MHz and 100KHz available if I need them. True, the HC14 >isn't a proper buffer meant to drive low impedance loads, but it seems to >work OK for me. I laid it out in Eagle and routed out a board with the >T-Tech here at work but there is no reason you couldn't do it with wire on >perf board. >_______________________________________________ > > If you need a stronger output driver, you could look at what was done in the TAPR TADD-2: http://www.tapr.org/kits_tadd-2.html Schematics are available in the documentation. My first htought was that the TADD-2 might work with a modified version of the PIC code to give lower division outputs (5 or 1 MHz). It might work for generating the 1 MHz, but I think you would still need hardware for the 10 MHZ to 5 MHz division. For your task, it may be easier to do it all in hardware as mentioned above. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Jul 28 21:43:52 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:43:52 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] An easy to generate 5, 1 MHz from 10 MHz In-Reply-To: <4A6F57FD.6080305@sonic.net> References: <4A6F57FD.6080305@sonic.net> Message-ID: <4A6F7118.6090201@xtra.co.nz> Rex wrote: > > John Green wrote: > >> A cheap and easy way is to use a 74HC14, 74HC390. Capacitively couple >> the 10 >> MHz into one of the 6 inputs of the HC14 to square it up, out of that >> into >> one of the divide by 2 inputs of the HC390, that goes to another >> input of >> the HC14 to act as a buffer which provides the 5 MHz output. Next, >> into the >> divide by 5 input of the HC390 to give 1 MHz out. This also goes >> through one >> section of the HC14. There is another section of the HC390 if you >> wish to >> divide down farther. I made one of these to feed an old Marconi service >> monitor that requires 1 MHz instead of 10 MHz as an external reference >> input. I also have 5 MHz and 100KHz available if I need them. True, >> the HC14 >> isn't a proper buffer meant to drive low impedance loads, but it >> seems to >> work OK for me. I laid it out in Eagle and routed out a board with the >> T-Tech here at work but there is no reason you couldn't do it with >> wire on >> perf board. >> _______________________________________________ >> >> > > If you need a stronger output driver, you could look at what was done > in the TAPR TADD-2: > http://www.tapr.org/kits_tadd-2.html > > Schematics are available in the documentation. > > My first htought was that the TADD-2 might work with a modified > version of the PIC code to give lower division outputs (5 or 1 MHz). > It might work for generating the 1 MHz, but I think you would still > need hardware for the 10 MHZ to 5 MHz division. For your task, it may > be easier to do it all in hardware as mentioned above. > Don't copy this circuit slavishly. Using a single AC04 to buffer 2 different output frequencies is a bad idea as ground bounce within the AC04 package creates significant crosstalk between the 2 outputs. As long as each AC04 is dedicated to a single output frequency (and preferably load) the crosstalk between outputs will be small. Bruce From brooke at pacific.net Tue Jul 28 23:02:31 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:02:31 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> Hi: I've started a web page for the HP 3458A and it's problem with more info at: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Greg: > > I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get > anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Greg Burnett wrote: >> Brooke: >> >> ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would >> hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in >> order to read the next error message (if any). You keep clearing the >> error messages until there are none left. Be sure to use the left & >> right arrows to scroll through a given error message's complete text >> line. >> >> Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom >> side) is worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still >> function (except for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if the >> rear optical cables are disconnected. However you will get an isolator >> error if the front optical cables are disconnected. But I'm not sure >> if it will be your error 201 or 200 (Isolator does not respond). >> >> Let us know what you find. >> >> Greg >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From ch at murgatroid.com Tue Jul 28 23:48:29 2009 From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 16:48:29 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5087B (was What's the cleanest way to produce 1 and 5 MHz from 10 MHz?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A6F8E4D.3010603@murgatroid.com> From: "Lux, James P (337C)" wrote: > > > There's slots for three input modules (A,B,C), and 10 output modules > (1-10), and they're all optional and easily reconfigurable. Just to be clear, the modules themselves aren't reconfigurable, but the mainframe is. That said, the 1 MHz, 5 MHz and 10 MHz output amps share the same circuit topology and board layout (although IIRC the actual boards are marked distinctly.). It is easy to convert a 5MHz output amp to 10MHz and vice versa by changing a couple off-the-shelf Cs. The 1MHz output amp has a different transformer in addition to several other parts. The transformers are HP specials with unspecified characteristics. -ch From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 01:55:44 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:55:44 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator Message-ID: Does anyone know where I might get hold of one of these manuals? (I've looked in the usual places) I have one of these devices and it needs a bit of work. Regards, Jim From jltran at worldnet.att.net Wed Jul 29 02:43:15 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2009 21:43:15 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766> 106B or 105B? Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:56 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator Does anyone know where I might get hold of one of these manuals? (I've looked in the usual places) I have one of these devices and it needs a bit of work. Regards, Jim _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Jul 29 02:48:14 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:48:14 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator In-Reply-To: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766> References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766> Message-ID: 106B. 2009/7/29 J. L. Trantham > 106B or 105B? > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:56 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator > > > Does anyone know where I might get hold of one of these manuals? (I've > looked in the usual places) I have one of these devices and it needs a bit > of work. > > Regards, > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From holrum at hotmail.com Wed Jul 29 15:12:46 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:12:46 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370 oven oscillator power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got in a oven oscillator power supply board for my 5370A counter from a time nut. After I installed it, I checked the output with a meter and only saw a few volts on the oven output... ooops... meter was on AC. AC volts on a DC supply... not good. Turns out the filter cap was going bad. I checked my other 5370's and they all had from 2 to 6 volts of ripple on the oven supply. You might want to check your counters and replace that cap. I used a 3200uF 50V unit (about twice the original value). ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 16:54:40 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:54:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments Message-ID: I'm looking for a good (short) description and/or a generalized model for relating a local time counter to some external reference. Here's the scenario.. A computer has a local clock that is a counter being driven by a local oscillator. Periodically, we get "time updates" from some outside source that give an "absolute time" and a sync. We need to use "calibrated time" to record log files and schedule events. A simple way to relate local counter to absolute time is: Calibrated time = (local counter / counter rate estimate) + time offset. Calculating the rate estimate from (local counter at time B - local counter at time A) / (absolute time at time B - absolute time at time A) And offset in a similar way. But this has the problem that the "calibrated time" might have discontinuities. Especially if you change the rate estimate and offset in a step function. Calibrated time might even go backwards. I guess an additional requirement on "Calibrated time" is that it be continuous and monotonically increasing. I can see that one can get this by "gradually" adjusting the rate estimate and offset (i.e. if your local clock runs fast so your local calibrated time has gotten ahead of absolute time, you set the rate lower than the true rate until it has slipped back fast and then slowly bring the rate back to the true rate) And this works pretty well if the outside reference is "better" than my local clock (and is essentially what NTP does, right?), but what if the reverse is true. Consider if my local clock is high quality, but I have to discipline Calibrated Time to an outside time that is of much poorer quality. (By the gods, it's 6AM when the sun rises and 6PM when the sun sets, so make everything adjust to fit that, and don't give me grief about seasonal variations in sunrise/set times). What's a good way to do this, hopefully that allows later reconstruction of what the history of transformations was (e.g. I should be able to take my calibrated time, and convert it back into local counter time, by using the log of changes in model parameters). Thanks for ideas and pointers in advance Jim James Lux, P.E. Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 +1(818)354-2075 phone +1(818)393-6875 fax From jfor at quik.com Wed Jul 29 17:19:15 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 10:19:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1598.12.6.201.32.1248887955.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Maybe let the clocks run unadjusted all day and resync between fixed times once a day? This is what the power companies do. You can back-figure the precise times if you really need to from the once a day correction files. This assumes the clock rates are just off a bit, and do not randomly fluctuate. -John =============== > I'm looking for a good (short) description and/or a generalized model for > relating a local time counter to some external reference. Here's the > scenario.. > A computer has a local clock that is a counter being driven by a local > oscillator. > Periodically, we get "time updates" from some outside source that give an > "absolute time" and a sync. > > We need to use "calibrated time" to record log files and schedule events. > > A simple way to relate local counter to absolute time is: > Calibrated time = (local counter / counter rate estimate) + time offset. > > Calculating the rate estimate from (local counter at time B - local > counter at time A) / (absolute time at time B - absolute time at time A) > And offset in a similar way. > > But this has the problem that the "calibrated time" might have > discontinuities. Especially if you change the rate estimate and offset in > a step function. Calibrated time might even go backwards. > > I guess an additional requirement on "Calibrated time" is that it be > continuous and monotonically increasing. I can see that one can get this > by "gradually" adjusting the rate estimate and offset (i.e. if your local > clock runs fast so your local calibrated time has gotten ahead of absolute > time, you set the rate lower than the true rate until it has slipped back > fast and then slowly bring the rate back to the true rate) > > And this works pretty well if the outside reference is "better" than my > local clock (and is essentially what NTP does, right?), but what if the > reverse is true. > Consider if my local clock is high quality, but I have to discipline > Calibrated Time to an outside time that is of much poorer quality. (By > the gods, it's 6AM when the sun rises and 6PM when the sun sets, so make > everything adjust to fit that, and don't give me grief about seasonal > variations in sunrise/set times). > > What's a good way to do this, hopefully that allows later reconstruction > of what the history of transformations was (e.g. I should be able to take > my calibrated time, and convert it back into local counter time, by using > the log of changes in model parameters). > > Thanks for ideas and pointers in advance > Jim > > > > > > James Lux, P.E. > Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios > Flight Communications Systems Section > Jet Propulsion Laboratory > 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 > Pasadena, CA, 91109 > +1(818)354-2075 phone > +1(818)393-6875 fax > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 18:03:00 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:03:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <1598.12.6.201.32.1248887955.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <1598.12.6.201.32.1248887955.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:19 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments Maybe let the clocks run unadjusted all day and resync between fixed times once a day? This is what the power companies do. You can back-figure the precise times if you really need to from the once a day correction files. This assumes the clock rates are just off a bit, and do not randomly fluctuate. -John --- If it was just a matter of "post processing" the data to figure out from recorded times when things actually happened, it would be easy. You'd do everything in "local time", record the time updates you receive, timestamped with local time, and figure it all out later. But we need to be able to "schedule" events to occur at predetermined times in the future, so you need some sort of clock model. We also need better than once a day updates. A typical oscillator might be good to, say, 10ppm (variability over the short term), and we need "synchronization" to 1 millisecond. So, in 100 seconds, you'd have drifted out of spec, if you assume a fixed "calibration." The real problem is that the "master" clock might be a crummy 50ppm XO, and all us "slaves" all have TCXOs that are good to a few ppm. It's almost the inverse problem from disciplining a XO with GPS. Jim =============== > I'm looking for a good (short) description and/or a generalized model for > relating a local time counter to some external reference. Here's the > scenario.. > A computer has a local clock that is a counter being driven by a local > oscillator. > Periodically, we get "time updates" from some outside source that give an > "absolute time" and a sync. > s there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Jul 29 18:44:43 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:44:43 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:54:40 PDT." Message-ID: <20090729184444.66F25BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I'm looking for a good (short) description and/or a generalized model > for relating a local time counter to some external reference. Here's > the scenario.. A computer has a local clock that is a counter being > driven by a local oscillator. Periodically, we get "time updates" from > some outside source that give an "absolute time" and a sync. What sort of accuracy do you want? seconds? milliseconds? microseconds? What sort of computer? A big one where you can run lots of software or a tiny one where every instruction counts? How stable is the environment (temperature)? The trick is to think of frequency rather than time. The usual problem with clock drift is that the local oscillator is off slightly, typically a few 10s of ppm. You can fix most of that if you can fudge the frequency of the clock. Say your system is updating the time from an interrupt that goes off every ms and you are keeping time in ms. The old code would look something like: ms = ms + 1 if ms == 1000 { sec = sec + 1; ms = 0} The first step is to change that to: ns = ns + 1000000 if ns == 1000000 {ms = ms + 1; ns = 0} if ms == 1000 { sec = sec + 1; ms = 0} The trick is you want to change that first 1000000 to match what the osc is actually delivering. So the code looks like: initialize: nspertick = 1000000 + ppmfudge run time: ns = ns + nspertick while ns >= 1000000 {ms = ms + 1; ns = ns - 1000000} if ms == 1000 { sec = sec + 1; ms = 0} if ppmfudge is negative, you will skip occasional updates to ms (drop ticks). if ppmfudge is positive, you will occasionally jump by 2 ms. I picked ms and ns for this example since the numbers work out conveniently for an integer fudge factor in ppm. You will need more bits for finer control. 1 ppm is 0.08 seconds per day or 1/2 second per week. With that sort of setup, and a stable clock (temperature?) you can get within a few seconds per week by hand. If you want to get the human out of the loop, you can implement a PLL. That gets complicated with filtering and stability and such. Have you looked into ntp? The fudge factor is usually called drift. It's usually stored in /etc/ntp/drift or /var/lib/ntp/drift or something like that. With a good local clock (gps, pps), you can easily track temperature. (I'll say more if anybody wants.) Historical trivia: I first learned about this back in 1976 or early 1977. Shortly after I got to Xerox, Ed Taft fixed a bug in the Alto OS by adding that code. The machine was designed with a 170 ns cycle time. Everybody knew that, including the guys who wrote the timekeeping code. You can't buy 170ns crystals. They come in MHz. So they got 5.88 MHz. If I did the math right, that's off by 340 pm or 29 seconds per day. (That feels about right. 30 seconds per day is horrible for a mature system, but close enough that many other things will be more important during the early days/years of a project.) More trivia: The early 3 megabit Ethernet was actually 5.88 / 2. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From vogelchr at vogel.cx Wed Jul 29 18:50:54 2009 From: vogelchr at vogel.cx (Christian Vogel) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:50:54 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: References: <1598.12.6.201.32.1248887955.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A709A0E.2070408@vogel.cx> Hi Lux, > The real problem is that the "master" clock might be a crummy 50ppm XO, and all us "slaves" all have TCXOs that are good to a few ppm. It's almost the inverse problem from disciplining a XO with GPS. > I have the impression that you are confused by your own weird terminology ;-). If you have a rather good clock yourself, and want to somehow characterize external events with their own sketchy time-of-day estimation, then please don't call this cheap thing the "master". Just let your internal clock ("precise") run undisturbed and capture the precise time for all the external events received from the "cheap" outside machines. Then timestamp a number of external/internal events and calculate the average relative external clock frequency. Filter the last N events and use the relative frequencies to extrapolate events to be expected in the future. It's basically just a PLL done in software. Without telling us some details, noone here will be able to give you real advice, I think... Chris From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 19:10:40 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090729184444.66F25BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 09:54:40 PDT." <20090729184444.66F25BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:45 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments > I'm looking for a good (short) description and/or a generalized model > for relating a local time counter to some external reference. Here's > the scenario.. A computer has a local clock that is a counter being > driven by a local oscillator. Periodically, we get "time updates" from > some outside source that give an "absolute time" and a sync. What sort of accuracy do you want? seconds? milliseconds? microseconds? >>>> milliseconds over days (i.e. parts per billion).. but that's not an absolute accuracy requirement.. we need to have multiple boxes "synchronized" to a common time scale so that they can generate an event within a millisecond, over a time span of, say, 20 minutes. (which is on the order of 1 ppm). What sort of computer? A big one where you can run lots of software or a tiny one where every instruction counts? How stable is the environment (temperature)? >>>> I'm really looking for a generalized model, not tied to a specific implementation. BUT, in this case, we can run a fair amount of software. The environment is not stable (hence the variation of frequency of the sources is substantial) The trick is to think of frequency rather than time. The usual problem with clock drift is that the local oscillator is off slightly, typically a few 10s of ppm. You can fix most of that if you can fudge the frequency of the clock. Say your system is updating the time from an interrupt that goes off every ms and you are keeping time in ms. >>> yes, that's basically calibrating the "clock rate" If you want to get the human out of the loop, you can implement a PLL. That gets complicated with filtering and stability and such. >> Precisely so. And NTP may actually be the best model here. Does NTP's "corrected output" meet the "must be monotonic and not discontinuous" criteria (being too lazy to just go read the NTP docs, which I have, and which I'll take a look at after lunch). From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 19:18:19 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:18:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A709A0E.2070408@vogel.cx> References: <1598.12.6.201.32.1248887955.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A709A0E.2070408@vogel.cx> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Christian Vogel Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 11:51 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments Hi Lux, > The real problem is that the "master" clock might be a crummy 50ppm XO, and all us "slaves" all have TCXOs that are good to a few ppm. It's almost the inverse problem from disciplining a XO with GPS. > I have the impression that you are confused by your own weird terminology ;-). If you have a rather good clock yourself, and want to somehow characterize external events with their own sketchy time-of-day estimation, then please don't call this cheap thing the "master". ---> But it *is* the master, by fiat. Here's a scenario: A schedule is published that says: (MT = Master's time) At 12:00.001MT Box A puts out a pulse At 12:00.002MT Box B puts out a pulse At 12:01.001MT Box A puts out a pulse. Box A and Box B MUST follow Master Time, no matter how crummy it is. Just let your internal clock ("precise") run undisturbed and capture the precise time for all the external events received from the "cheap" outside machines. Then timestamp a number of external/internal events and calculate the average relative external clock frequency. Filter the last N events and use the relative frequencies to extrapolate events to be expected in the future. It's basically just a PLL done in software. --- That is the general solution. What I'm looking for is a bit more formalism (presumably someone has studied this and done a paper?) And, (so I don't have to write them) if someone has done some nice figures and examples.. --specific example.. A Single board computer with non TCXO clock (on order of 10ppm variability over short term) is the "system controller" and sets the time schedules. It sends commands to devices which have TCXO clocks (on order of 1ppm short term variability) saying "at time X do action Y". It also periodically sends messages to the devices saying "At the tone, my time is Z". What we would like is a) some algorithms to do this (and NTP type PLLs are a decent way) and b) some formalism and rigor to choose operating parameters (e.g. update every 1 second or every day or whatever) From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Jul 29 21:51:25 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 PDT." Message-ID: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > >> Precisely so. And NTP may actually be the best model here. Does > NTP's "corrected output" meet the "must be monotonic and not > discontinuous" criteria (being too lazy to just go read the NTP docs, > which I have, and which I'll take a look at after lunch). There is a lot of info available about ntp, you may have troubles finding what you want, especially if you don't already know what you are looking for. I'm being sloppy when I say "ntp". It's both a protocol spec (RFC-whatever) and a reference implementation (ntpd) that is widely deployed. ntp tries to keep the local machine in sync with UTC. The model is that the world is a forest of trees. Each tree starts with a local source of time that claims to be UTC. ntp calls them refclocks. Each tree is a collection of servers. The refclocks are stratum 0. The root of each tree is stratum 1. The next layer of servers is stratum 2... A lot of the code in ntp is figuring out which trees to believe and then selecting the best one to sync to. ntpd is both a client and server. It's a server distributing time to clients at a higher stratum and a client getting time from servers at a lower stratum. What OS are you using? FreeBSD is very good. Linux is not--so-good. ntp runs in two modes. Normally, it gets the time over the net. Ballpark accuracies are 1 ms if you have a good local system to talk to and a lightly loaded network and 10s to 100 ms if you go out over the big bad internet. The other mode is using a refclock. ntpd includes support of over 20 different types of clocks, many are no longer interesting. The key to getting good time is something like a PPS pulse and kernel support to grab a timestamp in the interrupt routing. There is also a batch of PLL code in the kernel that I don't understand. For network traffic, ntp assumes the delays are symmetric. You can confuse it with something like a big download over a DSL link. Delays are not a problem. It's jitter and asymmetry. After a packet exchange, you end up with 4 time stamps. When the request left the client. When it arrived at the server. When the response left the server. When it arrived back at the client. (The packet can sit on the server for a while, say if it is busy doing other things.) If you subtract off the time the packet sat on the server you have the round trip time. If you assume symmetry you can get the offset. > ---> But it *is* the master, by fiat. Here's a scenario: A schedule > is published that says: (MT = Master's time) > At 12:00.001MT Box A puts out a pulse > At 12:00.002MT Box B puts out a pulse > At 12:01.001MT Box A puts out a pulse. > Box A and Box B MUST follow Master Time, no matter how crummy it is. ntp is trying for UTC, the one great time. But that comes from outside ntp. You can simplify things a lot if you tell it (config file) to only use one server. For example, you could setup box A as the master and tell B to sync to it. It may be better to setup another box in a stable environment and sync both A and B to it. That gives B a stable target. > A Single board computer with non TCXO clock (on order of 10ppm > variability over short term) is the "system controller" and sets the > time schedules. It sends commands to devices which have TCXO clocks > (on order of 1ppm short term variability) saying "at time X do action > Y". It also periodically sends messages to the devices saying "At the > tone, my time is Z". How good is your netework connection? You can get better data by sending several packets and picking the best one. In this context that probably means the one with the lowest round-trip-time. Lowest time means lowest queuing delays. That assumes no-queuing would be symmetric. ntp is trying to minimize network load. You may do better by sending more packets. (there is a maxpoll and a burst mode in the config file) If I was working on something like that, I would setup a testbed and collect some data. 10 ppm short term variability seems huge. The crystals I've looked at (in PCs) are ballpark of 1 ppm per C. Do you have wide temperature changes short term or nasty crystals? (or am I lucky?) It sounds a little backwards to have the machine with the lousy clock be the one in charge. Can it get the time from any of the devices with better clocks? > What we would like is a) some algorithms to do this (and NTP type PLLs > are a decent way) and b) some formalism and rigor to choose operating > parameters (e.g. update every 1 second or every day or whatever) There is a lot of formalism with ntp. I'm not familiar with most of it. Picking parameters is a black art. The ntp problem is the same as a GPSDO: you get good long term stability. Short to medium is where things get interesting. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From tomduck at comcast.net Wed Jul 29 21:52:08 2009 From: tomduck at comcast.net (Tom Duckworth) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:52:08 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] An easy to generate 5, 1 MHz from 10 MHz References: <4A6F57FD.6080305@sonic.net> <4A6F7118.6090201@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: For a 50 ohm driver for your outputs: come off the 74HC390 divide 5/2 output and buffer the signal with a 74ACTQ240. Then add a 39 ohm series resistor followed by (2) 1N4148 diodes (one to ground the other to +5V), to limit the output, and you have a 50 ohm driver for your outputs. Tom Tom Duckworth tomduck at comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce Griffiths" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] An easy to generate 5, 1 MHz from 10 MHz > Rex wrote: >> >> John Green wrote: >> >>> A cheap and easy way is to use a 74HC14, 74HC390. Capacitively couple >>> the 10 >>> MHz into one of the 6 inputs of the HC14 to square it up, out of that >>> into >>> one of the divide by 2 inputs of the HC390, that goes to another >>> input of >>> the HC14 to act as a buffer which provides the 5 MHz output. Next, >>> into the >>> divide by 5 input of the HC390 to give 1 MHz out. This also goes >>> through one >>> section of the HC14. There is another section of the HC390 if you >>> wish to >>> divide down farther. I made one of these to feed an old Marconi service >>> monitor that requires 1 MHz instead of 10 MHz as an external reference >>> input. I also have 5 MHz and 100KHz available if I need them. True, >>> the HC14 >>> isn't a proper buffer meant to drive low impedance loads, but it >>> seems to >>> work OK for me. I laid it out in Eagle and routed out a board with the >>> T-Tech here at work but there is no reason you couldn't do it with >>> wire on >>> perf board. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >> >> If you need a stronger output driver, you could look at what was done >> in the TAPR TADD-2: >> http://www.tapr.org/kits_tadd-2.html >> >> Schematics are available in the documentation. >> >> My first htought was that the TADD-2 might work with a modified >> version of the PIC code to give lower division outputs (5 or 1 MHz). >> It might work for generating the 1 MHz, but I think you would still >> need hardware for the 10 MHZ to 5 MHz division. For your task, it may >> be easier to do it all in hardware as mentioned above. >> > Don't copy this circuit slavishly. > > Using a single AC04 to buffer 2 different output frequencies is a bad > idea as ground bounce within the AC04 package creates significant > crosstalk between the 2 outputs. > As long as each AC04 is dedicated to a single output frequency (and > preferably load) the crosstalk between outputs will be small. > > Bruce > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From brooke at pacific.net Wed Jul 29 21:51:52 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:52 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> Hi: I've traced enough of the circuit to know the Zener diodes that blew act as input protection for the A4 power supply. This unit had a sticker saying "Strapped for 220 VAC" when I received it. I changed it to 120 VAC. BUT, if the prior owner plugged it into 220 VAC while it was strapped for 120 VAC this is exactly what you would expect to happen. For partial board layout and partial schematic see: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#A4 Note that the line fuse for 220 VAC is 0.5 Amp and for 120 VAC is 1.5 Amp. The Zener diodes are rated for 5 Watts so a drop of 40 volts can only support 125 ma. and the line fuse would be 1.5 Amp so offers no protection. Best to put a fuse at the input to the board as a way to protect A4 from this mistake. Could probably run it without the Zener diodes, but will replace them prior to powering it up. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi: > > I've started a web page for the HP 3458A and it's problem with more info > at: > http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Brooke Clarke wrote: >> Hi Greg: >> >> I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get >> anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com >> >> Greg Burnett wrote: >>> Brooke: >>> >>> ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would >>> hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in >>> order to read the next error message (if any). You keep clearing the >>> error messages until there are none left. Be sure to use the left & >>> right arrows to scroll through a given error message's complete text >>> line. >>> >>> Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom >>> side) is worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still >>> function (except for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if >>> the rear optical cables are disconnected. However you will get an >>> isolator error if the front optical cables are disconnected. But I'm >>> not sure if it will be your error 201 or 200 (Isolator does not >>> respond). >>> >>> Let us know what you find. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Wed Jul 29 21:58:20 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:58:20 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 14:51:52 MST." <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> Message-ID: <48964.1248904700@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <4A70C478.5000705 at pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke writes: >BUT, if the prior owner plugged it into 220 VAC while it was strapped for 120 There is a service note about confusing markings of the voltage selector. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 22:31:39 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 15:31:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 PDT." <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments > >> Precisely so. And NTP may actually be the best model here. Does > NTP's "corrected output" meet the "must be monotonic and not > discontinuous" criteria (being too lazy to just go read the NTP docs, > which I have, and which I'll take a look at after lunch). There is a lot of info available about ntp, you may have troubles finding what you want, especially if you don't already know what you are looking for. I'm being sloppy when I say "ntp". It's both a protocol spec (RFC-whatever) and a reference implementation (ntpd) that is widely deployed. >>>> What OS are you using? FreeBSD is very good. Linux is not--so-good. >>> RTEMS and/or VxWorks (I'm using RTEMS, others with whom we communicate use a variety of other things. And we don't have network connections per se.. That's why I'm looking for more generic descriptions that aren't tied to things like packet definitions or peculiarities of IP routing. Basically, all of these things should be able to be boiled down to two things: a synchronization signal and a synchronization message. The other mode is using a refclock. ntpd includes support of over 20 different types of clocks, many are no longer interesting. The key to getting good time is something like a PPS pulse and kernel support to grab a timestamp in the interrupt routing. There is also a batch of PLL code in the kernel that I don't understand. >>>> and it is that PLL code that is particularly interesting (Poul-Henning has useful information in kern/time_tc.c, etc.) For network traffic, ntp assumes the delays are symmetric. >>> In my application, we don't need to "probe the network" to figure out the latencies. We know them apriori, and they are also "very small" compared to the required time precision. The part I'm interested in is the automated reconciliation of the always varying clocks/oscillators on the platforms, essentially trying to predict a bad clock with a good one. > ---> But it *is* the master, by fiat. Here's a scenario: A schedule > is published that says: (MT = Master's time) > At 12:00.001MT Box A puts out a pulse > At 12:00.002MT Box B puts out a pulse > At 12:01.001MT Box A puts out a pulse. > Box A and Box B MUST follow Master Time, no matter how crummy it is. ntp is trying for UTC, the one great time. But that comes from outside ntp. You can simplify things a lot if you tell it (config file) to only use one server. For example, you could setup box A as the master and tell B to sync to it. It may be better to setup another box in a stable environment and sync both A and B to it. That gives B a stable target. --> Can't do that in this environment. The master is the master, and all the slaves are fore-ordained and must follow it as best they can. What I need to do, really, is figure out what "best they can" is. > A Single board computer with non TCXO clock (on order of 10ppm > variability over short term) is the "system controller" and sets the > time schedules. It sends commands to devices which have TCXO clocks > (on order of 1ppm short term variability) saying "at time X do action > Y". It also periodically sends messages to the devices saying "At the > tone, my time is Z". How good is your netework connection? >>>> Negligible latency (at least in the context of the required time precision). In reality, it has a worst case jitter of about 1 microsecond and a mean latency of 0.5 microsecond (that is, a "tick" on one end of the link appears at the other end of the link with a uniformly distributed delay of 0-1 microsecond) >>>> Think of it as if I had a piece of wire connecting the boxes, to do with whatever I want. And then, on the side, I have a way to transmit messages among boxes (which has greater latency and jitter) 10 ppm short term variability seems huge. The crystals I've looked at (in PCs) are ballpark of 1 ppm per C. Do you have wide temperature changes short term or nasty crystals? (or am I lucky?) >>> wide temperature ranges: The environment where you go from full sunlight (at 1.3kW/square meter) to full darkness, radiating to 3K blackbody (about -400W/sq meter), and back to sun every 90-100 minutes). A cyclical variation of 10-20 degrees wouldn't be unusual, and it's not sinusoidal.. more like a low pass filtered square wave. It sounds a little backwards to have the machine with the lousy clock be the one in charge. Can it get the time from any of the devices with better clocks? >> sadly, no.. that's one of the problems to solve. > What we would like is a) some algorithms to do this (and NTP type PLLs > are a decent way) and b) some formalism and rigor to choose operating > parameters (e.g. update every 1 second or every day or whatever) There is a lot of formalism with ntp. I'm not familiar with most of it. Picking parameters is a black art. >>> precisely so.. Lots of papers and presentations by Mills (and heck, he's been out here to JPL, too), but there's a lot of empiricism in those filter tuning parameters, I suspect. >>> Turns out that there are lots of applications in spaceflight where you need to synchronize things that have different clocks (with relativistic effects, as well as just long and varying propagation delay). For instance, NTP, by itself, doesn't do a very good job synchronizing a clock on something orbiting the moon. That's because the propagation delay properties are very different from what NTP was originally designed for (network traffic through a bunch of routers). You have a large, but systematic and predictable, range and range rate variation on top of a 1 second delay. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Jul 29 23:17:51 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:17:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: References: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 PDT." <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> James, Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads where you have posted replies. Most mail reader programs follow the convention, that on a reply, they automatically start with a header that identifies the last poster ("In reply to message from xxx") and then "quote" the entire replied-to message by prefixing each line with a chevron ">" in the first column. If another person replies later the same process is usually used, so when reading the latest message in the thread, one can determine the sequence of replies, because the oldest has maximum chevrons preceeding the lines, and the most recent comments have none. One can usually trace up the message to find the "in response to"-type headers and figure out who said what. Here's a link with a discussion of these conventions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style You seem to use a simple text method in your replies that doesn't add the chevron in front of the earlier stuff so your new reply and the last poster look to be at the same current sequence level. What's more, you often preceed your new reply lines with some random number of chevrons, making it appear in most mail reader programs that this new portion ought to be some much earlier part of the discussion. It also makes it a difficult detective process to figure out who said what in that message and any that follow. I don't want to start a big netiqette discussion, and you certainly have the right to do as you choose, but I would ask, that at minimum, you don't put chevrons in front of your new reply lines when you respond to previous messages. -Rex Lux, James P (337C) wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray >Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:51 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments > > > > >>>>Precisely so. And NTP may actually be the best model here. Does >>>> >>>> >>NTP's "corrected output" meet the "must be monotonic and not >>discontinuous" criteria (being too lazy to just go read the NTP docs, >>which I have, and which I'll take a look at after lunch). >> >> > >There is a lot of info available about ntp, you may have troubles finding >what you want, especially if you don't already know what you are looking for. > >I'm being sloppy when I say "ntp". It's both a protocol spec (RFC-whatever) >and a reference implementation (ntpd) that is widely deployed. > > > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > >What OS are you using? FreeBSD is very good. Linux is not--so-good. > > > > >>>>RTEMS and/or VxWorks (I'm using RTEMS, others with whom we communicate use a variety of other things. And we don't have network connections per se.. That's why I'm looking for more generic descriptions that aren't tied to things like packet definitions or peculiarities of IP routing. Basically, all of these things should be able to be boiled down to two things: a synchronization signal and a synchronization message. >>>> >>>> > >The other mode is using a refclock. ntpd includes support of over 20 >different types of clocks, many are no longer interesting. The key to >getting good time is something like a PPS pulse and kernel support to grab a >timestamp in the interrupt routing. There is also a batch of PLL code in the >kernel that I don't understand. > > > >>>>>and it is that PLL code that is particularly interesting (Poul-Henning has useful information in kern/time_tc.c, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> > > >For network traffic, ntp assumes the delays are symmetric. > > > > >>>>In my application, we don't need to "probe the network" to figure out the latencies. We know them apriori, and they are also "very small" compared to the required time precision. The part I'm interested in is the automated reconciliation of the always varying clocks/oscillators on the platforms, essentially trying to predict a bad clock with a good one. >>>> >>>> > > > >>---> But it *is* the master, by fiat. Here's a scenario: A schedule >>is published that says: (MT = Master's time) >>At 12:00.001MT Box A puts out a pulse >>At 12:00.002MT Box B puts out a pulse >>At 12:01.001MT Box A puts out a pulse. >> >> > > > >>Box A and Box B MUST follow Master Time, no matter how crummy it is. >> >> > >ntp is trying for UTC, the one great time. But that comes from outside ntp. >You can simplify things a lot if you tell it (config file) to only use one >server. > >For example, you could setup box A as the master and tell B to sync to it. > >It may be better to setup another box in a stable environment and sync both A >and B to it. That gives B a stable target. > >--> Can't do that in this environment. The master is the master, and all the slaves are fore-ordained and must follow it as best they can. What I need to do, really, is figure out what "best they can" is. > > > > > > > >>A Single board computer with non TCXO clock (on order of 10ppm >>variability over short term) is the "system controller" and sets the >>time schedules. It sends commands to devices which have TCXO clocks >>(on order of 1ppm short term variability) saying "at time X do action >>Y". It also periodically sends messages to the devices saying "At the >>tone, my time is Z". >> >> > >How good is your netework connection? > > > >>>>>Negligible latency (at least in the context of the required time precision). In reality, it has a worst case jitter of about 1 microsecond and a mean latency of 0.5 microsecond (that is, a "tick" on one end of the link appears at the other end of the link with a uniformly distributed delay of 0-1 microsecond) >>>>> >>>>> > > > >>>>>Think of it as if I had a piece of wire connecting the boxes, to do with whatever I want. And then, on the side, I have a way to transmit messages among boxes (which has greater latency and jitter) >>>>> >>>>> > > > >10 ppm short term variability seems huge. The crystals I've looked at (in >PCs) are ballpark of 1 ppm per C. Do you have wide temperature changes short >term or nasty crystals? (or am I lucky?) > > > >>>>wide temperature ranges: The environment where you go from full sunlight (at 1.3kW/square meter) to full darkness, radiating to 3K blackbody (about -400W/sq meter), and back to sun every 90-100 minutes). A cyclical variation of 10-20 degrees wouldn't be unusual, and it's not sinusoidal.. more like a low pass filtered square wave. >>>> >>>> > > > > >It sounds a little backwards to have the machine with the lousy clock be the >one in charge. Can it get the time from any of the devices with better >clocks? > > > >>>sadly, no.. that's one of the problems to solve. >>> >>> > > > > >>What we would like is a) some algorithms to do this (and NTP type PLLs >>are a decent way) and b) some formalism and rigor to choose operating >>parameters (e.g. update every 1 second or every day or whatever) >> >> > >There is a lot of formalism with ntp. I'm not familiar with most of it. > >Picking parameters is a black art. > > > >>>>precisely so.. Lots of papers and presentations by Mills (and heck, he's been out here to JPL, too), but there's a lot of empiricism in those filter tuning parameters, I suspect. >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>Turns out that there are lots of applications in spaceflight where you need to synchronize things that have different clocks (with relativistic effects, as well as just long and varying propagation delay). For instance, NTP, by itself, doesn't do a very good job synchronizing a clock on something orbiting the moon. That's because the propagation delay properties are very different from what NTP was originally designed for (network traffic through a bunch of routers). You have a large, but systematic and predictable, range and range rate variation on top of a 1 second delay. >>>> >>>> > > > From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 23:31:27 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:31:27 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> References: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 PDT." <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> Message-ID: Yes.. I know.. We just changed institutional mail servers (now Exchange..) and then mail clients (now Outlook 2007..) I haven't figured out how to get the mail client to properly quote non-html messages. (I've got a call into the help desk as I write this..) Jim -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Rex Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:18 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments James, Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads where you have posted replies. Most mail reader programs follow the convention, that on a reply, they automatically start with a header that identifies the last poster ("In reply to message from xxx") and then "quote" the entire replied-to message by prefixing each line with a chevron ">" in the first column. If another person replies later the same process is usually used, so when reading the latest message in the thread, one can determine the sequence of replies, because the oldest has maximum chevrons preceeding the lines, and the most recent comments have none. One can usually trace up the message to find the "in response to"-type headers and figure out who said what. Here's a link with a discussion of these conventions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style You seem to use a simple text method in your replies that doesn't add the chevron in front of the earlier stuff so your new reply and the last poster look to be at the same current sequence level. What's more, you often preceed your new reply lines with some random number of chevrons, making it appear in most mail reader programs that this new portion ought to be some much earlier part of the discussion. It also makes it a difficult detective process to figure out who said what in that message and any that follow. I don't want to start a big netiqette discussion, and you certainly have the right to do as you choose, but I would ask, that at minimum, you don't put chevrons in front of your new reply lines when you respond to previous messages. -Rex Lux, James P (337C) wrote: >-----Original Message----- >From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Hal Murray >Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 2:51 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments > > > > >>>>Precisely so. And NTP may actually be the best model here. Does >>>> >>>> >>NTP's "corrected output" meet the "must be monotonic and not >>discontinuous" criteria (being too lazy to just go read the NTP docs, >>which I have, and which I'll take a look at after lunch). >> >> > >There is a lot of info available about ntp, you may have troubles finding >what you want, especially if you don't already know what you are looking for. > >I'm being sloppy when I say "ntp". It's both a protocol spec (RFC-whatever) >and a reference implementation (ntpd) that is widely deployed. > > > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > > >What OS are you using? FreeBSD is very good. Linux is not--so-good. > > > > >>>>RTEMS and/or VxWorks (I'm using RTEMS, others with whom we communicate use a variety of other things. And we don't have network connections per se.. That's why I'm looking for more generic descriptions that aren't tied to things like packet definitions or peculiarities of IP routing. Basically, all of these things should be able to be boiled down to two things: a synchronization signal and a synchronization message. >>>> >>>> > >The other mode is using a refclock. ntpd includes support of over 20 >different types of clocks, many are no longer interesting. The key to >getting good time is something like a PPS pulse and kernel support to grab a >timestamp in the interrupt routing. There is also a batch of PLL code in the >kernel that I don't understand. > > > >>>>>and it is that PLL code that is particularly interesting (Poul-Henning has useful information in kern/time_tc.c, etc.) >>>>> >>>>> > > >For network traffic, ntp assumes the delays are symmetric. > > > > >>>>In my application, we don't need to "probe the network" to figure out the latencies. We know them apriori, and they are also "very small" compared to the required time precision. The part I'm interested in is the automated reconciliation of the always varying clocks/oscillators on the platforms, essentially trying to predict a bad clock with a good one. >>>> >>>> > > > >>---> But it *is* the master, by fiat. Here's a scenario: A schedule >>is published that says: (MT = Master's time) >>At 12:00.001MT Box A puts out a pulse >>At 12:00.002MT Box B puts out a pulse >>At 12:01.001MT Box A puts out a pulse. >> >> > > > >>Box A and Box B MUST follow Master Time, no matter how crummy it is. >> >> > >ntp is trying for UTC, the one great time. But that comes from outside ntp. >You can simplify things a lot if you tell it (config file) to only use one >server. > >For example, you could setup box A as the master and tell B to sync to it. > >It may be better to setup another box in a stable environment and sync both A >and B to it. That gives B a stable target. > >--> Can't do that in this environment. The master is the master, and all the slaves are fore-ordained and must follow it as best they can. What I need to do, really, is figure out what "best they can" is. > > > > > > > >>A Single board computer with non TCXO clock (on order of 10ppm >>variability over short term) is the "system controller" and sets the >>time schedules. It sends commands to devices which have TCXO clocks >>(on order of 1ppm short term variability) saying "at time X do action >>Y". It also periodically sends messages to the devices saying "At the >>tone, my time is Z". >> >> > >How good is your netework connection? > > > >>>>>Negligible latency (at least in the context of the required time precision). In reality, it has a worst case jitter of about 1 microsecond and a mean latency of 0.5 microsecond (that is, a "tick" on one end of the link appears at the other end of the link with a uniformly distributed delay of 0-1 microsecond) >>>>> >>>>> > > > >>>>>Think of it as if I had a piece of wire connecting the boxes, to do with whatever I want. And then, on the side, I have a way to transmit messages among boxes (which has greater latency and jitter) >>>>> >>>>> > > > >10 ppm short term variability seems huge. The crystals I've looked at (in >PCs) are ballpark of 1 ppm per C. Do you have wide temperature changes short >term or nasty crystals? (or am I lucky?) > > > >>>>wide temperature ranges: The environment where you go from full sunlight (at 1.3kW/square meter) to full darkness, radiating to 3K blackbody (about -400W/sq meter), and back to sun every 90-100 minutes). A cyclical variation of 10-20 degrees wouldn't be unusual, and it's not sinusoidal.. more like a low pass filtered square wave. >>>> >>>> > > > > >It sounds a little backwards to have the machine with the lousy clock be the >one in charge. Can it get the time from any of the devices with better >clocks? > > > >>>sadly, no.. that's one of the problems to solve. >>> >>> > > > > >>What we would like is a) some algorithms to do this (and NTP type PLLs >>are a decent way) and b) some formalism and rigor to choose operating >>parameters (e.g. update every 1 second or every day or whatever) >> >> > >There is a lot of formalism with ntp. I'm not familiar with most of it. > >Picking parameters is a black art. > > > >>>>precisely so.. Lots of papers and presentations by Mills (and heck, he's been out here to JPL, too), but there's a lot of empiricism in those filter tuning parameters, I suspect. >>>> >>>> > > > >>>>Turns out that there are lots of applications in spaceflight where you need to synchronize things that have different clocks (with relativistic effects, as well as just long and varying propagation delay). For instance, NTP, by itself, doesn't do a very good job synchronizing a clock on something orbiting the moon. That's because the propagation delay properties are very different from what NTP was originally designed for (network traffic through a bunch of routers). You have a large, but systematic and predictable, range and range rate variation on top of a 1 second delay. >>>> >>>> > > > _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Jul 29 23:34:34 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:34:34 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> References: Message from "Lux, James P (337C)" of "Wed, 29 Jul 2009 12:10:40 PDT." <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> Message-ID: Test of quoting of responses.. This looks better, at least from here.. James Lux, P.E. Task Manager, SOMD Software Defined Radios Flight Communications Systems Section Jet Propulsion Laboratory 4800 Oak Grove Drive, Mail Stop 161-213 Pasadena, CA, 91109 +1(818)354-2075 phone +1(818)393-6875 fax > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Rex > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 4:18 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good > description/generalized model for time adjustments > > James, > > Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads > where > you have posted replies. > > Most mail reader programs follow the convention, that on a reply, they > automatically start with a header that identifies the last poster ("In > reply to message from xxx") and then "quote" the entire replied-to > message by prefixing each line with a chevron ">" in the first column. > If another person replies later the same process is usually used, so > when reading the latest message in the thread, one can determine the > sequence of replies, because the oldest has maximum chevrons preceeding > the lines, and the most recent comments have none. One can usually > trace > up the message to find the "in response to"-type headers and figure out > who said what. And here's a response.. Seems to have quoted properly. (of course, some centrally managed configuration update pushed out tonight might set it back...arghh) Jim From mikes at flatsurface.com Wed Jul 29 23:35:43 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:35:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 07:17 PM 7/29/2009, Rex wrote... >Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads >where you have posted replies. At least he's not top-posting. From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Wed Jul 29 23:45:18 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:45:18 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> Hi Brooke, Three thoughts: 1. If CR11 or CR12 blew open, the LM317 and LM337 might have been damaged. Are your +18 & -18 supplies okay? By the way, I think you've got them reversed on the schematic. The LM317 should be connected to CR01 and CR02. 2. On the web page you mentioned that CR10 survived. Does that mean that CR09 blew open? If so, did your +5 take a hit? That could be the cause of all your problems. 3. If it was strapped for 110 and plugged into 220, how much current would the transformer itself draw due to the overvoltage? Would that pop the fuse all by itself? I've never tried such a thing ( and have no intentions of trying it!). Ed Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi: > > I've traced enough of the circuit to know the Zener diodes that blew > act as input protection for the A4 power supply. This unit had a > sticker saying "Strapped for 220 VAC" when I received it. I changed > it to 120 VAC. > > BUT, if the prior owner plugged it into 220 VAC while it was strapped > for 120 VAC this is exactly what you would expect to happen. For > partial board layout and partial schematic see: > http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#A4 > > Note that the line fuse for 220 VAC is 0.5 Amp and for 120 VAC is 1.5 > Amp. The Zener diodes are rated for 5 Watts so a drop of 40 volts can > only support 125 ma. and the line fuse would be 1.5 Amp so offers no > protection. Best to put a fuse at the input to the board as a way to > protect A4 from this mistake. > > Could probably run it without the Zener diodes, but will replace them > prior to powering it up. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Brooke Clarke wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I've started a web page for the HP 3458A and it's problem with more >> info at: >> http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com >> >> Brooke Clarke wrote: >>> Hi Greg: >>> >>> I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get >>> anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK >>> >>> Have Fun, >>> >>> Brooke Clarke >>> http://www.prc68.com >>> >>> Greg Burnett wrote: >>>> Brooke: >>>> >>>> ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would >>>> hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in >>>> order to read the next error message (if any). You keep clearing >>>> the error messages until there are none left. Be sure to use the >>>> left & right arrows to scroll through a given error message's >>>> complete text line. >>>> >>>> Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom >>>> side) is worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still >>>> function (except for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if >>>> the rear optical cables are disconnected. However you will get an >>>> isolator error if the front optical cables are disconnected. But >>>> I'm not sure if it will be your error 201 or 200 (Isolator does not >>>> respond). >>>> >>>> Let us know what you find. >>>> >>>> Greg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wb6bnq at cox.net Wed Jul 29 23:55:00 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 16:55:00 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> Mike, What, exactly, is the problem with top posting ? Sure, if you top post then the reader has to swing to the bottom and go backwards to pick the thread properly. However, the other way around then the writer has to always go to the bottom to post. Either way someone has to do some rolling. I don't know about others but I have a reverse gear in my mail client. I guess, if we were to count numbers, then there is one writer and many readers. So the writers loose. For me, I am lazy, and I started out with top posting decades ago. Bill....WB6BNQ Mike S wrote: > At 07:17 PM 7/29/2009, Rex wrote... > >Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads > >where you have posted replies. > > At least he's not top-posting. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From brooke at pacific.net Thu Jul 30 00:08:38 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 17:08:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <4A70E486.5030105@pacific.net> Hi Ed: I've fixed the schematic. Yes, I plan to check the transformer and A4 board prior to connecting back to the rest of the DVM. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Ed Palmer wrote: > Hi Brooke, > > Three thoughts: > > 1. If CR11 or CR12 blew open, the LM317 and LM337 might have been > damaged. Are your +18 & -18 supplies okay? By the way, I think you've > got them reversed on the schematic. The LM317 should be connected to > CR01 and CR02. > > 2. On the web page you mentioned that CR10 survived. Does that mean > that CR09 blew open? If so, did your +5 take a hit? That could be the > cause of all your problems. > > 3. If it was strapped for 110 and plugged into 220, how much current > would the transformer itself draw due to the overvoltage? Would that > pop the fuse all by itself? I've never tried such a thing ( and have no > intentions of trying it!). > > Ed > > Brooke Clarke wrote: >> Hi: >> >> I've traced enough of the circuit to know the Zener diodes that blew >> act as input protection for the A4 power supply. This unit had a >> sticker saying "Strapped for 220 VAC" when I received it. I changed >> it to 120 VAC. >> >> BUT, if the prior owner plugged it into 220 VAC while it was strapped >> for 120 VAC this is exactly what you would expect to happen. For >> partial board layout and partial schematic see: >> http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#A4 >> >> Note that the line fuse for 220 VAC is 0.5 Amp and for 120 VAC is 1.5 >> Amp. The Zener diodes are rated for 5 Watts so a drop of 40 volts can >> only support 125 ma. and the line fuse would be 1.5 Amp so offers no >> protection. Best to put a fuse at the input to the board as a way to >> protect A4 from this mistake. >> >> Could probably run it without the Zener diodes, but will replace them >> prior to powering it up. >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com >> >> Brooke Clarke wrote: >>> Hi: >>> >>> I've started a web page for the HP 3458A and it's problem with more >>> info at: >>> http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml >>> >>> Have Fun, >>> >>> Brooke Clarke >>> http://www.prc68.com >>> >>> Brooke Clarke wrote: >>>> Hi Greg: >>>> >>>> I tried both Blue then Error and Blue and Error and could not get >>>> anything, i.e. the display just showed ISOLATOR DTACK >>>> >>>> Have Fun, >>>> >>>> Brooke Clarke >>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>> >>>> Greg Burnett wrote: >>>>> Brooke: >>>>> >>>>> ...Correction to my last post... If I remember correctly, you would >>>>> hit "key shift blue" + "Clear" to clear out each error message in >>>>> order to read the next error message (if any). You keep clearing >>>>> the error messages until there are none left. Be sure to use the >>>>> left & right arrows to scroll through a given error message's >>>>> complete text line. >>>>> >>>>> Poul-Henning's suggestion (about the optical cables on the bottom >>>>> side) is worth trying. If I remember correctly, the box will still >>>>> function (except for Ext. Trigger Input and VM Complete Output) if >>>>> the rear optical cables are disconnected. However you will get an >>>>> isolator error if the front optical cables are disconnected. But >>>>> I'm not sure if it will be your error 201 or 200 (Isolator does not >>>>> respond). >>>>> >>>>> Let us know what you find. >>>>> >>>>> Greg >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From mikes at flatsurface.com Thu Jul 30 00:34:34 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:34:34 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> Message-ID: <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 07:55 PM 7/29/2009, WB6BNQ wrote... >What, exactly, is the problem with top posting ? Nothing, if you read books starting with the last chapter, working forward. Top posters are a result of the lame default of many MUAs, including MS Outlook, which place the insertion point for a reply at the top. Other than the illogical flow, most top-posters are lazy (they just hit reply and start typing), and leave the entire quoted content in place, in most cases (I'd bet), not even realizing the full content of their email below their reply. Five levels of replies are not needed for context, especially on an email reflector, where all messages go to all participants. By bottom posting (or better yet, inline), one is forced to go through the text one is including for context, which encourages trimming it to a reasonable amount. From stanw1le at verizon.net Thu Jul 30 00:49:40 2009 From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:49:40 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom Model X72 Rb Oscillator Message-ID: <4A70EE24.6030802@verizon.net> Hello The Net: I am starting to use this Rb oscillator and I am looking for the X72 Adapter Test Board, P/N 106452-001. I need it to connect to a RS-232 port on the computer for programming and status monitoring. Anyone have this adapter board that is excess to their needs ? Thanks, Stan, W1LE ZZZZz From aa8k at comcast.net Thu Jul 30 00:54:43 2009 From: aa8k at comcast.net (Mike Naruta AA8K) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:54:43 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <4A70EF53.2010505@comcast.net> Mike S wrote: > At 07:55 PM 7/29/2009, WB6BNQ wrote... > >> What, exactly, is the problem with top posting ? > > Nothing, if you read books starting with the last chapter, working forward. > > Top posters are a result of the lame default of many MUAs, including MS > Outlook, which place the insertion point for a reply at the top. Other > than the illogical flow, most top-posters are lazy (they just hit reply Be sure to inform your physician that he files your medical chart incorrectly with the most recent information on top. :) > and start typing), and leave the entire quoted content in place, in most > cases (I'd bet), not even realizing the full content of their email > below their reply. Five levels of replies are not needed for context, I think that in-line posting is the most inconvenient. After a few message exchanges, I give up trying to find my way through the mess. > especially on an email reflector, where all messages go to all > participants. > > By bottom posting (or better yet, inline), one is forced to go through I sincerely hope that we're not in for a massive discussion of bottom-posting versus top-posting. > the text one is including for context, which encourages trimming it to a > reasonable amount. > > From mikes at flatsurface.com Thu Jul 30 01:00:53 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:00:53 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70EF53.2010505@comcast.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70EF53.2010505@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20090730010208.440EB116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 08:54 PM 7/29/2009, Mike Naruta AA8K wrote... >Be sure to inform your physician that he files your >medical chart incorrectly with the most recent >information on top. :) So that's why they have such bad handwriting - they're forced to write backwards starting at the bottom of the page. From cfharris at erols.com Thu Jul 30 01:43:44 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 21:43:44 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <4A70FAD0.3010106@erols.com> Golly, Top posting has been used since the very first email programs were written... I was there. Back in the day, people were using 110 and 300 baud connections, and it was a real pain to have to download several pages of quoted message only to see "me to" at the bottom. Initially, this argument seemed to be a US vs Europe thing, and then when the first non academic and government users got added to the internet, the battle lines were drawn big time. You don't expect the foot notes of a book to come before the text, do you? -Chuck Harris Mike S wrote: > At 07:55 PM 7/29/2009, WB6BNQ wrote... > >> What, exactly, is the problem with top posting ? > > Nothing, if you read books starting with the last chapter, working forward. > > Top posters are a result of the lame default of many MUAs, including MS > Outlook, which place the insertion point for a reply at the top. Other > than the illogical flow, most top-posters are lazy (they just hit reply > and start typing), and leave the entire quoted content in place, in most > cases (I'd bet), not even realizing the full content of their email > below their reply. Five levels of replies are not needed for context, > especially on an email reflector, where all messages go to all > participants. > > By bottom posting (or better yet, inline), one is forced to go through > the text one is including for context, which encourages trimming it to a > reasonable amount. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From mikes at flatsurface.com Thu Jul 30 02:25:04 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:25:04 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <4A70FAD0.3010106@erols.com> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70FAD0.3010106@erols.com> Message-ID: <20090730022621.B868B116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 09:43 PM 7/29/2009, Chuck Harris wrote... >Top posting has been used since the very first email programs >were written... I was there. Really? You used READMAIL/SNDMSG, and exchanged emails with Ray Tomlinson? Bottom posting has been the preferred method from day 1 for USENET, which is the medium most comparable to an email reflector. It's interesting, though, that most top-posting MUAs insist on putting a new .sig all the way at the bottom. What's the logic behind that? >it was a real pain to have to download several pages of quoted >message only to see "me to" at the bottom. People who don't trim are even worse than top-posters. From rexa at sonic.net Thu Jul 30 02:58:52 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 19:58:52 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for good description/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <4A710C6C.7080700@sonic.net> Arrgh! Mike S wrote: > At 07:17 PM 7/29/2009, Rex wrote... > >> Your email posting style makes it very difficult to follow threads >> where you have posted replies. > > > At least he's not top-posting. > I did say this: "I don't want to start a big netiqette discussion..." Top/bottom is exactly the discussion I was thinking might happen. (Notice, I did both this time.) I'm happy with both. Sorry I sparked it. From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Thu Jul 30 03:08:29 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:08:29 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net><20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net><4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: That would be incorrect. To use your analogy, bottom posting is like restarting a book at the beginning each time you put it aside to do something else and close it. Another reason for top posting, which is much more recent though: on the Blackberry, long messages are truncated and you have to download the rest of the message separately (click "more"), which is an even greater pain, so on the Blackberry, top posting is VASTLY preferred. Bottom line: some people prefer one way, and others prefer another way. Live with it, be flexible. It's here to stay :) Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike S > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 7:35 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for > gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments > > At 07:55 PM 7/29/2009, WB6BNQ wrote... > > >What, exactly, is the problem with top posting ? > > Nothing, if you read books starting with the last chapter, > working forward. > From time-nuts at ko4bb.com Thu Jul 30 03:15:57 2009 From: time-nuts at ko4bb.com (Didier Juges) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 22:15:57 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking forgooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net><20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net><4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net><20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: Another thing, on the Blackberry, it is simply IMPOSSIBLE to bottom post or in-line post because the handheld does not actually process the message you are responding to, only the response, and the response is inserted at the top by the Blackberry server software. Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier Juges > Sent: Wednesday, July 29, 2009 10:08 PM > To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking > forgooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments > > That would be incorrect. > > To use your analogy, bottom posting is like restarting a book > at the beginning each time you put it aside to do something > else and close it. > From had at to-way.com Thu Jul 30 03:16:13 2009 From: had at to-way.com (Had) Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2009 20:16:13 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090730022621.B868B116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <20090729215127.10C2ABCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <4A70D89F.9090402@sonic.net> <20090729233658.047AF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70E154.4EB205B@cox.net> <20090730004126.6BEA0116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <4A70FAD0.3010106@erols.com> <20090730022621.B868B116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <20090730031614.937392D74E6@mail-in01.adhost.com> Oh CRAP, Here we go again. Top, Bottom, left and right posting has been debated on just about every news group since the beginning of time (maybe diagonal also) ......LET IT GO!!! Had K7MLR At 07:25 PM 7/29/2009, you wrote: >At 09:43 PM 7/29/2009, Chuck Harris wrote... >>Top posting has been used since the very first email programs >>were written... I was there. > >Really? You used READMAIL/SNDMSG, and exchanged emails with Ray Tomlinson? > >Bottom posting has been the preferred method from day 1 for USENET, >which is the medium most comparable to an email reflector. > >It's interesting, though, that most top-posting MUAs insist on >putting a new .sig all the way at the bottom. What's the logic behind that? > >>it was a real pain to have to download several pages of quoted >>message only to see "me to" at the bottom. > >People who don't trim are even worse than top-posters. > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From holrum at hotmail.com Thu Jul 30 03:34:17 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 03:34:17 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom Model X72 Rb Oscillator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I hope you don't want to use the "sine wave" output of these units. It is awful... even with the recommended filer cap it looks like something a mangy cat would cough up. Sort of goes along with the First Law of Rubidium Standards... the smaller the standard, the worse the performance. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 From masondg44 at comcast.net Thu Jul 30 04:16:12 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:16:12 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project Message-ID: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> While investigating recent threads on Distribution Amps, I ran across a DA project on Didier's web site at http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/Distribution_Amp/ and http://www.ko4bb.com/ham_radio/Extron_3_80/. Those pages describe using an Extron ADA 3 80 analog video distribution amp to distribute a 10 MHz frequency reference to lab instruments. It seems to be a cheap, easy way to get a set of reference frequencies throughout a small lab. I would be interested to hear about any further testing and characterization was done with that setup, such as noise, distortion, etc. I have a couple of the Extron DAs to play with, and would like to use them if they will do the job. I'm only looking for frequency distribution; not timing. Frequencies of interest are: 10MHz, 5MHz and 1MHz. I haven't been able to find schematics for the Extron DA, but according to the author's discussion, it seems to be very similar to the DA circuit schematics at http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html. I haven't had time to reverse engineer the circuit in my Extron DA, but it surely would be nice to avoid it if possible. Anyone have a schematic, or a source for it? Also, looking for a source of low cost 1:1 and 2:1 Ethernet transformers. I've tried the local computer shops, but they don't seem to be interested in helping. Dave M From jherrero at hvsistemas.es Thu Jul 30 05:46:59 2009 From: jherrero at hvsistemas.es (Javier Herrero) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 07:46:59 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> References: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> Message-ID: <4A7133D3.3010208@hvsistemas.es> Both Mouser and Digikey stocks several models of Ethernet transformers. Regards, Javier Dave M escribi?: > > > Also, looking for a source of low cost 1:1 and 2:1 Ethernet transformers. > I've tried the local computer shops, but they don't seem to be interested in > helping. > > Dave M > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Javier Herrero EMAIL: jherrero at hvsistemas.com HV Sistemas S.L. PHONE: +34 949 336 806 Los Charcones, 17A FAX: +34 949 336 792 19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jul 30 06:52:44 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 06:52:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> Message-ID: <763875.88923.qm@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, What Ethernet transformers are you looking for, UTP or Coax? I'd guess coax for the distribution amp. These are best scavenged from old Thin Ethernet cards. Look for cards with a BNC connector. Best place is either a electronics surplus place, computer repair shop or shop that sells used computers. Just ask for old network cards. Computer/radio flea markets are another possible source. Thin Ethernet cards also have an isolated DC-DC converter on them (either module or discrete components) with 9V out for 5 or 12V in. Lots of uses, RS232 or op-amp supplies, isolating digital panel meters in PSUs, boosting 12V supplies prior to a constant current regulator to charge 12V batteries from 12V supplies. Robert G8RPI. --- On Thu, 30/7/09, Dave M wrote: > From: Dave M > Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project > To: "TimeNuts" > Date: Thursday, 30 July, 2009, 5:16 AM > While investigating recent threads on > Distribution Amps, I ran across a DA > project on Didier's web site at > http://www.ko4bb.com/Timing/Distribution_Amp/ and > http://www.ko4bb.com/ham_radio/Extron_3_80/.? > Those pages describe using an > Extron ADA 3 80 analog video distribution amp to distribute > a 10 MHz > frequency reference to lab instruments.? It seems to > be a cheap, easy way to > get a set of reference frequencies throughout a small > lab.? I would be > interested to hear about any further testing and > characterization was done > with that setup, such as noise, distortion, etc. > > I have a couple of the Extron DAs to play with, and would > like to use them > if they will do the job.? I'm only looking for > frequency distribution; not > timing.???Frequencies of interest are: > 10MHz, 5MHz and 1MHz. > I haven't been able to find schematics for the Extron DA, > but according to > the author's discussion, it seems to be very similar to the > DA circuit > schematics at http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html.? > I > haven't had time to reverse engineer the circuit in my > Extron DA, but it > surely would be nice to avoid it if possible.? Anyone > have a schematic, or a > source for it? > > Also, looking for a source of low cost 1:1 and 2:1 Ethernet > transformers. > I've tried the local computer shops, but they don't seem to > be interested in > helping. > > Dave M > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Thu Jul 30 12:54:19 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:54:19 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Old scrap PC network cards? The DC-DC isolated converters are useful to pull too. Dave Baxter. --------------- Original Message --------------- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:16:12 -0400 From: "Dave M" . . Trimmed ! . Also, looking for a source of low cost 1:1 and 2:1 Ethernet transformers. I've tried the local computer shops, but they don't seem to be interested in helping. Dave M From g4hup at btinternet.com Thu Jul 30 13:48:40 2009 From: g4hup at btinternet.com (dave powis) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 13:48:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <984681.49724.qm@web86309.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Old network cards are an excellent source of isolating transformers, filters and small DC-DC converters. If you need to distribute sinewave 10MHz signals (some items accept or even need a square wave) then the filters that can be recovered from the cards are very useful - they include isolation transformers. There's an article about it in the Distribution Amp section of my webpages - go to http://g4hup.com/DA/DA.htm and follow the 'filters, transformers and DC converters' link. The article was originally published in Scatterpoint, the monthly publication of the UK Microwave Group. Best 73, Dave, G4HUP http://g4hup.com ________________________________ From: Dave Baxter To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Thursday, 30 July, 2009 1:54:19 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project Old scrap PC network cards? The DC-DC isolated converters are useful to pull too. Dave Baxter. --------------- Original Message --------------- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 00:16:12 -0400 From: "Dave M" . . Trimmed ! . Also, looking for a source of low cost 1:1 and 2:1 Ethernet transformers. I've tried the local computer shops, but they don't seem to be interested in helping. Dave M _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de Thu Jul 30 13:50:13 2009 From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 15:50:13 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Posting style Was: looking for gooddescription/generalized model for time adjustments In-Reply-To: <20090730031614.937392D74E6@mail-in01.adhost.com> Message-ID: Top Posting, Mid Posting or Bottom Posting, I agree to not discuss it extensively. But why it is necessary to fill up the archive space with twice, triple or even more times of: >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. I do not understand it. Can this be solved? Perhaps it is wrong to just delete at least this part, but it does save some space. HTML is very good for Internet information pages, but personally I have some problems having to read through never ending Spaghetty Lines. Ok, when I trim my mailer prog to show only a quarter of the screen width these lines get wrapped to be readable. I do not use the multi featured mailing programs. I want to avoid any hidden codes to get active. I do only need just ASCII or ANSI characters for typing text. Perhaps I am alone whith this behaviour... Why not to use the different ways of posting all together? When the response does follow more or less immediately I think it is not necessary to rehash what I lready have on my disk. Perhaps just mentioning the subject with date/ time may be sufficient. If there are doubts then I think to add the previous text at the end is sufficient, even if it sounds to be more logic to put it in front. In most cases I anyway step down immediately to the new text without having read this known old part... I find the Center Posting important when the mail is complex containing lots of different points and statements or questions, but that does not seem to be read easily either. Thanks Rex for your mail and pointing to the WIKI I didn't know about. Excuse me, ecause my answer is not specific to just one previous mail I just do not repeat them. Arnold From wpxs472 at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 16:01:59 2009 From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:01:59 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Methods for comparing oscillators Message-ID: I've been hanging around and reading long enough to understand that when measuring the differences between oscillators the preferred methods are the HP 5370A Time difference counter or the dual mixer method. I want to evaluate some ocxo's and Rb sources against either a Tbolt or Z3801 and I don't have either method available. What I have used in the past is an HP Infinium scope with the reference fed to one channel which also provides sync and the DUT to the other. I have tested 2 ocxos that were so close that the two waveforms did not move by a detectable amount in a 30 minute period. I realize that this method will require very long observation times when looking at more stable sources. I am not looking to get absolute data, just comparative. Given what I have to work with, is there a better way? I use an Agilent 89441A Vector Signal Analyzer for signal quality measurements. I can see 60 Hz sidebands at least 60 or 70 db down and while I can't measure phase noise, I can tell a clean oscillator from a dirty one. For instance, there is a world of difference between the signal generated by an HP8920 and a E4430B. From brooke at pacific.net Thu Jul 30 16:27:19 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:27:19 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> Hi: I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac and Ohms data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com From richard at karlquist.com Thu Jul 30 16:38:11 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:38:11 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Methods for comparing oscillators In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A71CC73.1020609@karlquist.com> You really need to mix down to a low frequency beat note as in the HP5390 system. There is a huge increase in sensitivity by doing that. It is not difficult to make a mixer circuit. Rick Karlquist N6RK John Green wrote: > I've been hanging around and reading long enough to understand that when > measuring the differences between oscillators the preferred methods are the > HP 5370A Time difference counter or the dual mixer method. I want to > evaluate some ocxo's and Rb sources against either a Tbolt or Z3801 and I > don't have either method available. What I have used in the past is an HP > Infinium scope with the reference fed to one channel which also provides > sync and the DUT to the other. I have tested 2 ocxos that were so close that > the two waveforms did not move by a detectable amount in a 30 minute period. > I realize that this method will require very long observation times when > looking at more stable sources. I am not looking to get absolute data, just > comparative. Given what I have to work with, is there a better way? I use an > Agilent 89441A Vector Signal Analyzer for signal quality measurements. I can > see 60 Hz sidebands at least 60 or 70 db down and while I can't measure > phase noise, I can tell a clean oscillator from a dirty one. For instance, > there is a world of difference between the signal generated by an HP8920 and > a E4430B. > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jfor at quik.com Thu Jul 30 16:36:20 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:36:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> Message-ID: <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does it get hot? -John ================= > Hi: > > I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac and Ohms > data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 > > Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From richard at karlquist.com Thu Jul 30 16:42:24 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:42:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> References: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> Message-ID: <4A71CD70.3000806@karlquist.com> Dave M wrote: > I haven't been able to find schematics for the Extron DA, but according to > the author's discussion, it seems to be very similar to the DA circuit > schematics at http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html. I > haven't had time to reverse engineer the circuit in my Extron DA, but it > surely would be nice to avoid it if possible. Anyone have a schematic, or a > source for it? In the KO4BB citation, the common base discrete amps are going to give considerably better performance than the video distribution amplifier you were asking about. Rick Karlquist N6RK From brooke at pacific.net Thu Jul 30 17:23:44 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:23:44 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> Hi John: It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com J. Forster wrote: > Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB > removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does it > get hot? > > -John > > ================= > > >> Hi: >> >> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac and Ohms >> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >> >> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > From jfor at quik.com Thu Jul 30 17:32:44 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:32:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> Message-ID: <2029.12.6.201.220.1248975164.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Seems low for shorted turns. How physically big is the transformer? It still might be shorted turns, if the transformer is small (say under a 1" cube) and has a high primary resstance.. Shorted turns or an open winding are single point failures. Other failures (two point)are much less probable. FWIW, -John ============= > Hi John: > > It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered up > the > fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. > > So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to the > transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > J. Forster wrote: >> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does it >> get hot? >> >> -John >> >> ================= >> >> >>> Hi: >>> >>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac and >>> Ohms >>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>> >>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>> >>> Have Fun, >>> >>> Brooke Clarke >>> http://www.prc68.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Thu Jul 30 17:37:03 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 11:37:03 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> Try putting a light load on the transformer when you measure the output voltage (maybe 1K). You may find that terminals 2-3 are open circuit rather than short. Maybe that's why CR10 survived - the transformer blew first. Ed Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi John: > > It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered > up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. > > So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to > the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > J. Forster wrote: >> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does it >> get hot? >> >> -John >> >> ================= >> >> >>> Hi: >>> >>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac >>> and Ohms >>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>> >>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>> >>> Have Fun, >>> >>> Brooke Clarke >>> http://www.prc68.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jfor at quik.com Thu Jul 30 17:39:19 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 10:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Look at the Ohms readings. It's not open, if the readings are right. -John ============= > Try putting a light load on the transformer when you measure the output > voltage (maybe 1K). You may find that terminals 2-3 are open circuit > rather than short. Maybe that's why CR10 survived - the transformer > blew first. > > Ed > > Brooke Clarke wrote: >> Hi John: >> >> It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered >> up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. >> >> So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to >> the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. >> >> Have Fun, >> >> Brooke Clarke >> http://www.prc68.com >> >> J. Forster wrote: >>> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >>> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does >>> it >>> get hot? >>> >>> -John >>> >>> ================= >>> >>> >>>> Hi: >>>> >>>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac >>>> and Ohms >>>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>>> >>>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>>> >>>> Have Fun, >>>> >>>> Brooke Clarke >>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>>> To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Thu Jul 30 18:30:43 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 12:30:43 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> Message-ID: <4A71E6D3.4080008@sasktel.net> You're right. Sorry. Brooke, now that you know the source of at least this problem, have you considered powering up the system by applying DC to the inputs of the regulators? This would allow you to limit the current in case there's been some damage further in. Also, is the Outguard p.s. connected to the same transformer? I would expect to see a similar circuit topology on both supplies. Is there any heat damage on the Outguard p.s.? Ed J. Forster wrote: > Look at the Ohms readings. It's not open, if the readings are right. > > -John > > ============= > > > >> Try putting a light load on the transformer when you measure the output >> voltage (maybe 1K). You may find that terminals 2-3 are open circuit >> rather than short. Maybe that's why CR10 survived - the transformer >> blew first. >> >> Ed >> >> Brooke Clarke wrote: >> >>> Hi John: >>> >>> It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered >>> up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. >>> >>> So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to >>> the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. >>> >>> Have Fun, >>> >>> Brooke Clarke >>> http://www.prc68.com >>> >>> J. Forster wrote: >>> >>>> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >>>> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does >>>> it >>>> get hot? >>>> >>>> -John >>>> >>>> ================= >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi: >>>>> >>>>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac >>>>> and Ohms >>>>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>>>> >>>>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>>>> >>>>> Have Fun, >>>>> >>>>> Brooke Clarke >>>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>>> > From brooke at pacific.net Thu Jul 30 21:08:28 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:08:28 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A71E6D3.4080008@sasktel.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71E6D3.4080008@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <4A720BCC.6020107@pacific.net> Hi Ed: Yes, all the supply voltages are within spec, but the error message stays the same. The Outguard supply visually looks OK and the voltages are centered in the spec. Yes the transformer has seven wires feeding the outguard p.s. See: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#Bot You may need to to see it. Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Ed Palmer wrote: > You're right. Sorry. > > Brooke, now that you know the source of at least this problem, have you > considered powering up the system by applying DC to the inputs of the > regulators? This would allow you to limit the current in case there's > been some damage further in. > > Also, is the Outguard p.s. connected to the same transformer? I would > expect to see a similar circuit topology on both supplies. Is there any > heat damage on the Outguard p.s.? > > Ed > > J. Forster wrote: >> Look at the Ohms readings. It's not open, if the readings are right. >> >> -John >> >> ============= >> >> >> >>> Try putting a light load on the transformer when you measure the output >>> voltage (maybe 1K). You may find that terminals 2-3 are open circuit >>> rather than short. Maybe that's why CR10 survived - the transformer >>> blew first. >>> >>> Ed >>> >>> Brooke Clarke wrote: >>> >>>> Hi John: >>>> >>>> It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when powered >>>> up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. >>>> >>>> So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to >>>> the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. >>>> >>>> Have Fun, >>>> >>>> Brooke Clarke >>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>> >>>> J. Forster wrote: >>>> >>>>> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >>>>> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. Does >>>>> it >>>>> get hot? >>>>> >>>>> -John >>>>> >>>>> ================= >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Hi: >>>>>> >>>>>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac >>>>>> and Ohms >>>>>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>>>>> >>>>>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>>>>> >>>>>> Have Fun, >>>>>> >>>>>> Brooke Clarke >>>>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>>>> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From dforbes at dakotacom.net Thu Jul 30 21:36:51 2009 From: dforbes at dakotacom.net (David Forbes) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 14:36:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A720BCC.6020107@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71E6D3.4080008@sasktel.net> <4A720BCC.6020107@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A721273.3080506@dakotacom.net> Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Ed: > > Yes, all the supply voltages are within spec, but the error message > stays the same. > > The Outguard supply visually looks OK and the voltages are centered in > the spec. > > Yes the transformer has seven wires feeding the outguard p.s. > > See: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#Bot > You may need to to see it. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke Brooke, This poor instrument does look like it suffered overvoltage on the AC input. Because of that, it's likely that one or more digital ICs took an overvoltage hit, causing localized damage that produces the interesting symptom. Unfortunately, there's enough programmable logic and other hard-to-find parts on the A5 CPU board that you likely will have to replace the board to fix the unit. The DTACK error is a clue if you want to track it down. You may be able to find that fault by triggering a scope on the DS0* or DS1* signal being at 0V for longer than a microsecond or two. Then look at the address bus to see what address is being accessed, and consult the documentation (if you can get it) to see what device is at that address, and go from there. It's a good activity for someone with lots of free time. --David Forbes From jim77742 at gmail.com Thu Jul 30 23:22:06 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:22:06 +1000 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator In-Reply-To: References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766> <5C606002D7274BE3A7EC2DBB3337C3A4@dell> Message-ID: Hi Stan, (and time-nuts because this may interest someone). Well I've made good progress. The 1000 uF capacitor fixed a lot of things. After letting the unit warm up for 24 hours it has settled down to become quite an accurate unit. Current drift (after calibration with a screwdriver) is 2 nsec a minute. Not bad for an old beast. I notice the oven has four adjustments. Two marked "factory settings". The large screw at front and centre is a course oscillator adjustment - but I don't know the other three. Can you look those up for me. There locations are: Rear centre - screw is deep within the unit. No noticeable change. I'm guessing inner oven temperature. Rear offset - screw is near the surface. No noticeable change. I'm guessing outer oven temperature.Seems to adjust the amplitude of the waveform in some weird way. Not sure of this. There is also a large internal trim pot near the front top of the unit but facing backwards. I'd like to know what this does. Regards, Jim 2009/7/30 Jim Palfreyman > Hi Stan, > > No I've had no luck at all! > > How big are the 106B manuals (in pages)? > > Is it feasible to get them scanned? I know I could do it - but Australia is > a long way... > > I know Didier Judges has an excellent archive of manuals ( > http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals.php) and this is not in it. Which is a pity, > because I understand this was a premier unit for its day. I have one and I'm > repairing it. The first dud component I've found is a 1000 uF capacitor in > the power supply. But there may be more. > > My first immediate query is what signals/waveform should be on the three > test points at the upper rear of the unit? > > Thanks and regards, > > Jim > > 2009/7/30 Stan Searing > > >> Hi Jim, >> Did you find the manual? >> I have a op and service manual for the 106A and 106B. >> TVB may have already scanned one. >> I do want to keep my manual, but could scan sections sometime. >> >> >> Stan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >> Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman >> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:48 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator >> >> 106B. >> >> 2009/7/29 J. L. Trantham >> >> > 106B or 105B? >> > >> > Joe >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >> > On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman >> > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:56 PM >> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> > Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator >> > >> > >> > Does anyone know where I might get hold of one of these manuals? (I've >> > looked in the usual places) I have one of these devices and it needs a >> > bit of work. >> > >> > Regards, >> > >> > Jim >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.392 / Virus Database: 270.13.35/2271 - Release Date: 07/29/09 >> 18:07:00 >> >> > From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Thu Jul 30 23:31:31 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:31:31 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3458A ISOLATOR DTACK err @ pwr up In-Reply-To: <4A720BCC.6020107@pacific.net> References: <4A6E3E6A.1030609@pacific.net> <040801ca0f35$c2bc3cc0$6501a8c0@gb02> <065101ca0f52$bbd7fdf0$6501a8c0@gb02> <4A6F40C1.9080005@pacific.net> <4A6F8387.9040209@pacific.net> <4A70C478.5000705@pacific.net> <4A70DF0E.3030801@sasktel.net> <4A71C9E7.8070307@pacific.net> <1701.12.6.201.220.1248971780.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71D720.1010102@pacific.net> <4A71DA3F.20800@sasktel.net> <2048.12.6.201.220.1248975559.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> <4A71E6D3.4080008@sasktel.net> <4A720BCC.6020107@pacific.net> Message-ID: <4A722D53.3060309@sasktel.net> The voltages are correct even with a half-fried transformer. Sounds like typical HP overdesign. :-) Did you check for ripple or noise on the outputs? I'm intrigued by the fact that the error message is pointing you towards the Outguard Controller, but the only apparent damage is to the Inguard Power Supply. Could the error message be a red herring? Could the actual damage be in the Inguard Section as shown in Fig. 28 (p. 70) of the Assembly Level Repair Manual? This would at least be consistent with damage to the Inguard Power Supply. But it seems odd that HP would have such a misleading error message. Does the error change if the fiber links are disconnected? Can you probe the optical receivers with a scope to see if there's data on the links? Ed Brooke Clarke wrote: > Hi Ed: > > Yes, all the supply voltages are within spec, but the error message > stays the same. > > The Outguard supply visually looks OK and the voltages are centered in > the spec. > > Yes the transformer has seven wires feeding the outguard p.s. > > See: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#Bot > You may need to to see it. > > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Ed Palmer wrote: >> You're right. Sorry. >> >> Brooke, now that you know the source of at least this problem, have >> you considered powering up the system by applying DC to the inputs of >> the regulators? This would allow you to limit the current in case >> there's been some damage further in. >> >> Also, is the Outguard p.s. connected to the same transformer? I >> would expect to see a similar circuit topology on both supplies. Is >> there any heat damage on the Outguard p.s.? >> >> Ed >> >> J. Forster wrote: >>> Look at the Ohms readings. It's not open, if the readings are right. >>> >>> -John >>> >>> ============= >>> >>> >>> >>>> Try putting a light load on the transformer when you measure the >>>> output >>>> voltage (maybe 1K). You may find that terminals 2-3 are open circuit >>>> rather than short. Maybe that's why CR10 survived - the transformer >>>> blew first. >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>> Brooke Clarke wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi John: >>>>> >>>>> It's hard to say. With the A4 Inguard p.s. board removed when >>>>> powered >>>>> up the fan comes on and the display lights up with the error message. >>>>> >>>>> So, measured on the primary side, there's 25 ma AC current going to >>>>> the transformer then to the Outguard p.s. and fan. >>>>> >>>>> Have Fun, >>>>> >>>>> Brooke Clarke >>>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>>> >>>>> J. Forster wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Looks like it. Does the transformer draw much current with the PCB >>>>>> removed? If it has shorted turns, as it appears, it likely will. >>>>>> Does >>>>>> it >>>>>> get hot? >>>>>> >>>>>> -John >>>>>> >>>>>> ================= >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the power transformer got cooked. Have a look at the Vac >>>>>>> and Ohms >>>>>>> data: http://www.prc68.com/I/HP3458DVM.shtml#T1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Force a browser refresh to see the latest schematic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have Fun, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brooke Clarke >>>>>>> http://www.prc68.com >>>>>>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Jul 30 23:41:56 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 16:41:56 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766><5C606002D7274BE3A7EC2DBB3337C3A4@dell> Message-ID: <1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> Hi Jim, I'm glad you've made progress on it. The big old 106B is the best quartz frequency standard hp ever made. I measured more than one of them with short-term stability down around 1e-13. Left on for months, drift rate are on par with rubidium. Some long-term plots of a hp 106b are shown here: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp106b/ but I see that old page doesn't include any recent short-term performance plots. /tvb ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Palfreyman" To: "Stan Searing" ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator > Hi Stan, (and time-nuts because this may interest someone). > > Well I've made good progress. The 1000 uF capacitor fixed a lot of things. > After letting the unit warm up for 24 hours it has settled down to become > quite an accurate unit. Current drift (after calibration with a screwdriver) > is 2 nsec a minute. Not bad for an old beast. > > I notice the oven has four adjustments. Two marked "factory settings". The > large screw at front and centre is a course oscillator adjustment - but I > don't know the other three. Can you look those up for me. There locations > are: > > Rear centre - screw is deep within the unit. No noticeable change. I'm > guessing inner oven temperature. > Rear offset - screw is near the surface. No noticeable change. I'm guessing > outer oven temperature.Seems to adjust the amplitude of the waveform in some > weird way. Not sure of this. > > There is also a large internal trim pot near the front top of the unit but > facing backwards. I'd like to know what this does. > > Regards, > > Jim > > > 2009/7/30 Jim Palfreyman > >> Hi Stan, >> >> No I've had no luck at all! >> >> How big are the 106B manuals (in pages)? >> >> Is it feasible to get them scanned? I know I could do it - but Australia is >> a long way... >> >> I know Didier Judges has an excellent archive of manuals ( >> http://www.ko4bb.com/manuals.php) and this is not in it. Which is a pity, >> because I understand this was a premier unit for its day. I have one and I'm >> repairing it. The first dud component I've found is a 1000 uF capacitor in >> the power supply. But there may be more. >> >> My first immediate query is what signals/waveform should be on the three >> test points at the upper rear of the unit? >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> Jim >> >> 2009/7/30 Stan Searing >> >> >>> Hi Jim, >>> Did you find the manual? >>> I have a op and service manual for the 106A and 106B. >>> TVB may have already scanned one. >>> I do want to keep my manual, but could scan sections sometime. >>> >>> >>> Stan >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On >>> Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman >>> Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 7:48 PM >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator >>> >>> 106B. >>> >>> 2009/7/29 J. L. Trantham >>> >>> > 106B or 105B? >>> > >>> > Joe >>> > >>> > -----Original Message----- >>> > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] >>> > On Behalf Of Jim Palfreyman >>> > Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2009 8:56 PM >>> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>> > Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator >>> > >>> > >>> > Does anyone know where I might get hold of one of these manuals? (I've >>> > looked in the usual places) I have one of these devices and it needs a >>> > bit of work. >>> > >>> > Regards, >>> > >>> > Jim From richard at karlquist.com Fri Jul 31 00:05:43 2009 From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator In-Reply-To: <1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766><5C606002D7274BE3A7EC2DBB3337C3A4@dell> <1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> Message-ID: <0496763e5ab21491c739bc70170c4bb7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> Tom Van Baak wrote: > Some long-term plots of a hp 106b are shown here: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp106b/ > but I see that old page doesn't include any recent short-term > performance plots. > > /tvb That is awesome performance. Out of the hundreds or thousands of 10811's and E1938's I've looked at, I've never seen this kind of aging. 1E-11/month is actually good for an Rb; many are worse. We barely met this number when we designed the HP 10816 Rb. Len Cutler had a cylindrical oven assembly from a 106 on display in his office. I wonder if he knew just how good these were. I think he got to exercise his perfectionist tendancies on this one, without any "supervision" from the usual suspects. Rick Karlquist N6RK From jfor at quik.com Fri Jul 31 00:24:22 2009 From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:24:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator In-Reply-To: <1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766><5C606002D7274BE3A7EC2DBB3337C3A4@dell> <1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> Message-ID: <3479.12.6.201.218.1248999862.squirrel@popacctsnew.quik.com> The 107BR ain't no slouch either. Mine's been on for over a decade. I check it against an Austron 2100F. Sorry, I don't have the data to hand at the moment. -John =============== > Hi Jim, > > I'm glad you've made progress on it. The big old 106B is the > best quartz frequency standard hp ever made. I measured > more than one of them with short-term stability down around > 1e-13. Left on for months, drift rate are on par with rubidium. > > Some long-term plots of a hp 106b are shown here: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/hp106b/ > but I see that old page doesn't include any recent short-term > performance plots. > > /tvb From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Jul 31 00:28:15 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 12:28:15 +1200 Subject: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project In-Reply-To: <4A71CD70.3000806@karlquist.com> References: <284D3571006B4A5EA167D2AF4D65D980@D77M7BF1> <4A71CD70.3000806@karlquist.com> Message-ID: <4A723A9F.60203@xtra.co.nz> Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote: > > > Dave M wrote: > >> I haven't been able to find schematics for the Extron DA, but >> according to the author's discussion, it seems to be very similar to >> the DA circuit schematics at >> http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html. I haven't had >> time to reverse engineer the circuit in my Extron DA, but it surely >> would be nice to avoid it if possible. Anyone have a schematic, or a >> source for it? > > In the KO4BB citation, the common base discrete amps are going to give > considerably better performance than the video distribution amplifier > you were asking about. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK > A prototype discrete design that is an enhanced (lower distortion, higher output) version of the common base cascade shown has been verified (as expected) by measurement to have substantially lower phase noise than the TADD-1 opamp based design. It also has lower phase noise than the 5087A. Bruce From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 31 00:41:49 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 17:41:49 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Service manual for HP 106B Quartz Oscillator References: <6A357D739B884A75B540F59D2837614A@S0028384766><5C606002D7274BE3A7EC2DBB3337C3A4@dell><1E993770E4534168BEBE019D307F2025@pc52> <0496763e5ab21491c739bc70170c4bb7.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> Message-ID: > Len Cutler had a cylindrical oven assembly from a 106 on > display in his office. I wonder if he knew just how good these > were. I think he got to exercise his perfectionist tendancies > on this one, without any "supervision" from the usual suspects. > > Rick Karlquist N6RK Yes, I was able to share my results with him in person some years ago. He was very pleased. The 106B is quite amazing. But it had a rather short product life - I have been told it was too expensive to make and by the late 60's and early 70's hp had a line of inexpensive but good quartz (105B) along with their rubidium (5065A) and cesium (5060A and 5061A) which perhaps crowded out the too-good 106B. Now that I have better gear in my lab I want to repeat that old 40 day run that I did in 1997. I worry now that the drift and tempco visible in those plots were partly due to the M-100 Rb reference and not the 106B. Based only on what I've tested here, I'd say that a well-working 106 is several times better than a Sulzer or FTS 1000/1200. Only a modern BVA has better performance. The trick is to get them working well, after 40 years of dust. /tvb From stanw1le at verizon.net Fri Jul 31 00:52:07 2009 From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 20:52:07 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom Model X72 Rb Oscillator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A724037.9020009@verizon.net> Hello Mark, Looking at the sinewave output on a spectrum analyzer, I am getting 2nd harmonic suppression of ~46 dB and other spurious to 1 GHz at least 50 dB down. I am using this10 MHz ref for a DEMI A32 synthesized LO board in a 10 GHz transverter. So far no problems, but I am still looking. The X72 units are nice, I can fit 2 in my shirt pocket, and 10 to 32 VDC operating voltage. Stan, W1LE FN41sr Cape Cod Mark Sims wrote: > I hope you don't want to use the "sine wave" output of these units. It is awful... even with the recommended filer cap it looks like something a mangy cat would cough up. Sort of goes along with the First Law of Rubidium Standards... the smaller the standard, the worse the performance. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live? SkyDrive?: Store, access, and share your photos. See how. > http://windowslive.com/Online/SkyDrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_CS_SD_photos_072009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From boyscout at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 04:00:51 2009 From: boyscout at gmail.com (Matt Ettus) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:00:51 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring Message-ID: Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much appreciated. Thanks, Matt From wb6bnq at cox.net Fri Jul 31 04:08:39 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:08:39 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring References: Message-ID: <4A726E47.D7C4253@cox.net> Hi Matt, 1. Is the voltage AC or DC ? 2. What is the voltage range ? 3. What kind of resolution ? Bill....WB6BNQ Matt Ettus wrote: > Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > > Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Matt From boyscout at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 04:19:20 2009 From: boyscout at gmail.com (Matt Ettus) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:19:20 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: <4A726E47.D7C4253@cox.net> References: <4A726E47.D7C4253@cox.net> Message-ID: DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. Thanks, Matt On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > Hi Matt, > > 1. ? ?Is the voltage AC or DC ? > 2. ? ?What is the voltage range ? > 3. ? ?What kind of resolution ? > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > Matt Ettus wrote: > >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages >> at the same time? ?I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. >> >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much >> appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jmiles at pop.net Fri Jul 31 04:34:05 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:34:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: National Instruments has been getting aggressive with their pricing lately: e.g., http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/8675 . I was actually toying with the idea of getting into the DAQ business a few months ago, but I changed my mind in a hurry when I saw their ads. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Matt Ettus > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:19 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > > > DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. > > Thanks, > Matt > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > > Hi Matt, > > > > 1. ? ?Is the voltage AC or DC ? > > 2. ? ?What is the voltage range ? > > 3. ? ?What kind of resolution ? > > > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > > Matt Ettus wrote: > > > >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > >> at the same time? ?I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > >> > >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much > >> appreciated. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Matt > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From boyscout at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 04:38:50 2009 From: boyscout at gmail.com (Matt Ettus) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:38:50 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've actually got some of their ethernet devices. The problem is that the drivers are all closed. They give no info on how to talk to them without LabView. Matt On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:34 PM, John Miles wrote: > National Instruments has been getting aggressive with their pricing lately: > e.g., http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/8675 . ?I was actually toying > with the idea of getting into the DAQ business a few months ago, but I > changed my mind in a hurry when I saw their ads. > > -- john, KE5FX > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On >> Behalf Of Matt Ettus >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:19 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring >> >> >> DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt >> >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: >> > Hi Matt, >> > >> > 1. ? ?Is the voltage AC or DC ? >> > 2. ? ?What is the voltage range ? >> > 3. ? ?What kind of resolution ? >> > >> > Bill....WB6BNQ >> > >> > Matt Ettus wrote: >> > >> >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages >> >> at the same time? ?I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would >> >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. >> >> >> >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much >> >> appreciated. >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Matt >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From oz6oi at yahoo.dk Fri Jul 31 04:49:53 2009 From: oz6oi at yahoo.dk (Flemming Larsen) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 04:49:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <461624.29668.qm@web24608.mail.ird.yahoo.com> A good application for the Sanguino board? ? ? www.sanguino.cc ? -- FL ? >> >> DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt >> >> Tr?nger du til at se det store billede? Kelkoo giver dig gode tilbud p? LCD TV! Se her http://dk.yahoo.com/r/pat/lcd From jmiles at pop.net Fri Jul 31 04:57:10 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:57:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ah. Well, I guess that's the catch, then. :( Unless they actively encrypt the data, I'd guess that a few minutes with a variable power supply and a copy of Wireshark would open the proverbial kimono. Failing that, how about a bank of V-to-F converter chips with paralleled outputs, driving a line-in jack which is then FFT'ed to recover the 'channel' amplitudes? Cost would be a buck or two per input at most, plus a few hours' soldering and hacking time. (Or an Atmel chip with an RS-232 hookup, as F. Larsen's post suggested just before I hit 'send' on this one. That'd be the easy way out, I think.) -- john, KE5FX > I've actually got some of their ethernet devices. The problem is that > the drivers are all closed. They give no info on how to talk to them > without LabView. > > Matt > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:34 PM, John Miles wrote: > > National Instruments has been getting aggressive with their > pricing lately: > > e.g., http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/8675 . ?I was > actually toying > > with the idea of getting into the DAQ business a few months ago, but I > > changed my mind in a hurry when I saw their ads. > > > > -- john, KE5FX > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > >> Behalf Of Matt Ettus > >> Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:19 PM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > >> > >> > >> DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Matt > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > >> > Hi Matt, > >> > > >> > 1. ? ?Is the voltage AC or DC ? > >> > 2. ? ?What is the voltage range ? > >> > 3. ? ?What kind of resolution ? > >> > > >> > Bill....WB6BNQ > >> > > >> > Matt Ettus wrote: > >> > > >> >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 > different voltages > >> >> at the same time? ?I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, > but would > >> >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > >> >> > >> >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters > would be much > >> >> appreciated. > >> >> > >> >> Thanks, > >> >> Matt > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> > To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> > and follow the instructions there. > >> > > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From wb6bnq at cox.net Fri Jul 31 05:00:25 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:00:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring References: Message-ID: <4A727A69.1CBA6530@cox.net> Hi John and Mat, The USB analog units seemed OK for the price ($169) and feature set. Another one to consider is http://www.dataq.com I tried one of their $25 starters that had 10 bit resolution. I was going to suggest, depending upon Matts interests, that perhaps he could use a PIC or ATMEL device with analog inputs and roll his own. Most PIC models have 10 bits but some do have 12 bit. You could use an external A/D for 12 bits or more. There are some decent low-end HP DVMs on ebay occasionally, if you want to take a chance on it working. That would be the cheapest way to get the GPIB. If time is short and you do not have the essentials for rolling you own then it looks like John's suggestion would be the more reasonable route. There are others that provide some low-end data acquisition products as well. You will have to do a Google search for data acquisition. Another idea is using some of the inexpensive 4 digit DVMs (run around $50 to $80) that have serial output capability. I bought a couple of Mastech units for $59 a few years ago. They had a temperature probe and the serial output. Bill....WB6BNQ John Miles wrote: > National Instruments has been getting aggressive with their pricing lately: > e.g., http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/8675 . I was actually toying > with the idea of getting into the DAQ business a few months ago, but I > changed my mind in a hurry when I saw their ads. > > -- john, KE5FX > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > > Behalf Of Matt Ettus > > Sent: Thursday, July 30, 2009 9:19 PM > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > > > > > > DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. > > > > Thanks, > > Matt > > > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > > > Hi Matt, > > > > > > 1. Is the voltage AC or DC ? > > > 2. What is the voltage range ? > > > 3. What kind of resolution ? > > > > > > Bill....WB6BNQ > > > > > > Matt Ettus wrote: > > > > > >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > > >> at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > > >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > > >> > > >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much > > >> appreciated. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Matt > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 31 05:17:24 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:17:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring References: Message-ID: <4BAEB8BFFB0D4E628262E793CA20D055@pc52> > Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > > Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Matt Check out http://www.labjack.com /tvb From vogelchr at vogel.cx Fri Jul 31 06:00:58 2009 From: vogelchr at vogel.cx (Christian Vogel) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:00:58 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: <4A727A69.1CBA6530@cox.net> References: <4A727A69.1CBA6530@cox.net> Message-ID: <20090731080058.64946rqrmlsx6sw8@webmail.df.eu> Hi Bill, > I was going to suggest, depending upon Matts interests, that perhaps > he could use a PIC or ATMEL device with analog inputs and roll his > own. > Most PIC models have 10 bits but some do have 12 bit. You could use > an external A/D for 12 bits or more. I actually used this for a laboratory setup just recently, but I only needed about 1% of accuracy. I bought a "Arduino Duemilanove" board for *?25*. This includes a FDTI USB-to-serial and a Atmel AVR microcontroller and is powered from USB. Their simple IDE speaks a preprocessed version of C and it took me 5 minutes to have my 3-channel-analog-to-serial software done. You can also use your conventional toolchain and just ignore their beginners' environment, though. http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDuemilanove Chris From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Fri Jul 31 06:24:17 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:24:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message from Matt Ettus of "Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:19:20 PDT." Message-ID: <20090731062418.D9186BCF1@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. Which end of the $$$ scale are you interested in? Are you willing to spend cash to save time, or do you prefer to invest time (hacking) to save $? > DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. 10 mV out of 10 V is 10 bits. Your 6V requirement is a bit ugly. Be prepared to add an external divider. You can get 10 or 12 bit A/Ds on single chip micros. (Or could several years ago when I was last paying attention.) So I expect somebody in that business makes something that will solve your problem without breaking the bank. For example, Atmel's ATMega8a has 6 or 8 10 bit A/D channels. (6 on DIP, 8 on other packages.) The data sheet says 15 k samples per second, but that's the marketing number. I gave up before I found out how slow it is when you switch channels. It's unlikely to have troubles with 1 or 2 Hz. I expect Microchip/PIC has something similar. Atmel may have something better, I didn't look very hard. The Mega8 was just a sanity check. (I'm biased, I've used it before.) A/Ds (generally) fall into 2 categories. I'll call them fast and slow. The slow ones are linear in the number of counts rather than the number of bits, so they can be really slow when you get to 16-20 bits. Think of the refresh rate on a typical DVM. So you probably need to avoid those. (unless your 1-2 Hz is per single reading rather than getting a reading on each of the 4-8 inputs) The fast ones are linear in the number of bits. (Then there are the super-fast, flash converers that are just 1 cycle and maybe a few pipeline delays.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From wb6bnq at cox.net Fri Jul 31 06:43:59 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 23:43:59 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring References: <4A727A69.1CBA6530@cox.net> <20090731080058.64946rqrmlsx6sw8@webmail.df.eu> Message-ID: <4A7292AF.45FA149B@cox.net> Hi Chris, That is an interesting item and the pricing is certainly on the inexpensive side. Sparkfun has it for $30. Sure beats trying to make your own boards and come up with the parts. I have an old development system from "mikroElektronika" [ http://www.mikroe.com/ ] for the PIC line. They provide compilers in "C" "PASCAL" or BASIC" which resolve to machine routines, but to be honest even though I have the BASIC version, I never use it. I tend to like the machine language level even though I have not really warmed up to the PICs. At any rate, I spend some time explaining to those on the company's forum that the A/D is really more of a monitor then a real voltmeter. The reason I say that is you can never truly see zero volts, nor can you actually get to 5 volts at the other end without some fancy hardware tricks. The same goes for the ATMEL line. Most of the time your not looking for the zero end of the scale so everything works out ok. Thanks for the link to that product. It is certainly worthy of mention. Bill....WB6BNQ Christian Vogel wrote: > Hi Bill, > > > I was going to suggest, depending upon Matts interests, that perhaps > > he could use a PIC or ATMEL device with analog inputs and roll his > > own. > > Most PIC models have 10 bits but some do have 12 bit. You could use > > an external A/D for 12 bits or more. > > I actually used this for a laboratory setup just recently, but I only > needed about 1% of accuracy. I bought a "Arduino Duemilanove" board > for *?25*. This includes a FDTI USB-to-serial and a Atmel AVR > microcontroller and is powered from USB. Their simple IDE speaks a > preprocessed version of C and it took me 5 minutes to have my > 3-channel-analog-to-serial software done. You can also use your > conventional toolchain and just ignore their beginners' environment, > though. > > http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDuemilanove > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 31 06:52:20 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:52:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <730600.73958.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi Matt, I'd recommend the Pico Technolgy range for an external box. < http://www.picotech.com/multi-channel-daq.html > The 1213 would do your job with an resistive divider. The Pico stuff is well made, they still support products made years ago, good free applications, and an open interface protocol. If you'd prefer an internal PC card I can do you a good price in a Data Translation DT-322. 8 channels differential (16 single ended) of 16 bit ADC, 4 DAC's a couple of counter timers and some digital I/O all on a PCI card. Good driver support and free (basic) applications. Robert G8RPI. --- On Fri, 31/7/09, Matt Ettus wrote: > From: Matt Ettus > Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Date: Friday, 31 July, 2009, 5:00 AM > Does anyone have a good solution for > monitoring 4-8 different voltages > at the same time?? I only need a sample rate around > 1-2 Hz, but would > need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol > documentation. > > Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters > would be much > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Matt > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From marc_bury at yahoo.fr Fri Jul 31 07:50:42 2009 From: marc_bury at yahoo.fr (Marc Bury) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:50:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring (Matt Ettus) Message-ID: <331803.41640.qm@web23104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi Matt, A Hewlet Packard 3421A (Data acquisition unit) with option 20 (10 channel multiplexer) and GPIB would fit your need withour emptying your wallet. From christophe.huygens at cs.kuleuven.ac.be Fri Jul 31 08:08:57 2009 From: christophe.huygens at cs.kuleuven.ac.be (Christophe Huygens) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:08:57 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: References: <4A726E47.D7C4253@cox.net> Message-ID: <4A72A699.6020106@cs.kuleuven.ac.be> Let me quickly plug http://www.hw-group.com/products/sensors/Sens-UI_en.html I have found these guys to be cheap and good, when I had remote Temp monitoring needs. They have other cool stuff too. Worth a look. Xtof Matt Ettus wrote: > DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. > > Thanks, > Matt > > On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 9:08 PM, WB6BNQ wrote: > >> Hi Matt, >> >> 1. Is the voltage AC or DC ? >> 2. What is the voltage range ? >> 3. What kind of resolution ? >> >> Bill....WB6BNQ >> >> Matt Ettus wrote: >> >> >>> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages >>> at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would >>> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. >>> >>> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much >>> appreciated. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Matt >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > Disclaimer: http://www.kuleuven.be/cwis/email_disclaimer.htm From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Fri Jul 31 08:16:56 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 09:16:56 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] OT: RE: Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Like the Arduino/Atmel option.. Try a PIC16F877, 8 10bit A/D inputs, and serial (UART/MSSP) IO too. (Have to admit, I can't remember if the serial IO will "knock out" any of the A/D input pins.) Prototype boards with RS232 drivers, Power reg, Xtal etc, from Olimex, among others. Free software development and programming tools widely available too. Some people "get on" with PIC's, some do not. Have to admit, I struggle at times... Conventional PIC's (12 and 16 series) are very much RISC in their instruction set, the later 18 series are more suited to compiled high level code, having a more "conventional" non paged address space. Not that there isn't a wealth of 'C' and even some Pascal compilers etc for the 12 bit core devices. I forget the exact part number, but there is at least one 18 series PIC (I think there are several) that has built in USB device support, also at least one with a network interface (but you still need the network IO hardware) and a wealth of fast analogue IO facilities. Someone on a well known web auction site was flogging small boards pre programmed to work as a crude 'scope. The PC source code (VB) was available too. Something very much like this: Item #280377761091 You know where to look. Atmel's AVR series chips are good products too, likewise development tools are widely available, and I believe the core CPU instruction set (Mnemonics at least) resembles the old Intel 805x stuff? So could be somewhat easier for some of us older types to wrap the grey cell around. Unless you have burning desire to burn money with the commercial instrument vendors, or you need something "Fast" (as in "I want it NOW!") I'm sure there are many more single chip MCU's out there that will also do the job for you. TI's MSP-430 series for example. Covering all of these, take a look at the Olimex site:- www.olimex.com Select Development boards, and explore from there. I'm sure you'll get other ideas... Their prices are good, and they ship fast. Regards. Dave Baxter. > -----Original Message----- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:00:51 -0700 > From: Matt Ettus > Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different > voltages at the same time? I only need a sample rate around > 1-2 Hz, but would need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with > protocol documentation. > > Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would > be much appreciated. > > Thanks, > Matt > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 04:49:53 +0000 (GMT) > From: Flemming Larsen > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Message-ID: <461624.29668.qm at web24608.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > A good application for the Sanguino board? > ? > ? www.sanguino.cc > ? > -- FL > ? > > > >> > >> DC, 0 to 6V, 10mV or better resolution. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Matt > >> > >> From dave at uk-ar.co.uk Fri Jul 31 09:16:18 2009 From: dave at uk-ar.co.uk (Dave Baxter) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:16:18 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Very nice! And at those prices, why bother to roll your own, unless you have some truly unique need. Thanks for the tip off. Dave Baxter. > -----Original Message----- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 22:17:24 -0700 > From: "Tom Van Baak" > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Message-ID: <4BAEB8BFFB0D4E628262E793CA20D055 at pc52> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > . . . > > Check out http://www.labjack.com > > /tvb From yuri at ostry.ru Fri Jul 31 10:13:05 2009 From: yuri at ostry.ru (Yuri Ostry) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 14:13:05 +0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85135279.20090731141305@ostry.ru> Hello, Friday, July 31, 2009, 8:00:51, Matt Ettus wrote: M> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages M> at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would M> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. M> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much M> appreciated. There was already some suggestions about using microcontroller to build your own device, it looks reasonable for me but will take some time and effort. There is another possible solution (not well known here, and not so cheap, but may be useful if you need halvanic isolation and calibration handled by device). Look at Beckhoff K-Bus I/O devices or their Wago series 750 clones. You can build remote ADC with ethernet connection combining BK9000 bus coupler, some analog 0-10V input modules (there is choice of different resolutions, like KL3102 2-channel 16 bit modules, or KL3468 8-channel (single-ended) 0-10V 12-bit analog input modules). You will need one KL9010 bus end terminal. -- Best regards, Yuri mailto:yuri at ostry.ru From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Jul 31 10:43:54 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:43:54 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tektronix TM5003 or TM5006 power supply mainframe. DM5010, DM5110, or DM5120 meter. SI5020 input scanner. In place of the meters/scanner you could use the MI5010 multifunction interface with the 50M10 A/D card and a 50M40 or 50M41 relay scanner. Even better use an analog switch on the 50M70 development board or controlled by a 50M30 parallel I/O board. With a little shopping on Ebay you should be able to configure the system for around $300. Another possibility is a HP3457A meter with the relay card (or your own analog switch). All of these systems would measure the voltages sequentially, not simultaneously. I have seen some other HP meters with GPIB sell for under $50. You could just chain a bunch of them on the GPIB bus. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Search, add, and share the web?s latest sports videos. Check it out. http://www.windowslive.com/Online/Hotmail/Campaign/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_QA_HM_sports_videos_072009&cat=sports From optomatic at rogers.com Fri Jul 31 11:15:32 2009 From: optomatic at rogers.com (Patrick) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:15:32 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A72D254.3050704@rogers.com> I hardly ever respond to posts here, I am just too dumb but..... I have looked into this a bit. Why not look at used Astro-med products on Ebay. This way you have the display and plotting built into your solution. You could probably pick up something for under $300 that would have 8 to 16 channels with plot. There are also 'Scopecorders' or "Hi-corders' from Yokogawa and Hioki but it is really hard to find a decent one on Ebay or Dovebid and the prices are insane but the specifications sound impressive. -Patrick From jra at febo.com Fri Jul 31 12:52:21 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 08:52:21 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring (Matt Ettus) In-Reply-To: <331803.41640.qm@web23104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <331803.41640.qm@web23104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A72E905.1000503@febo.com> Marc Bury wrote: > Hi Matt, > > A Hewlet Packard 3421A (Data acquisition unit) with option 20 (10 channel multiplexer) and GPIB would fit your need withour emptying your wallet. I can vouch for the 3421A -- nice, inexpensive box that is low power and fairly painless to program. There are other HP data aquisition/switch boxes, including one with a 5 1/2 digit DMM, but they are much bigger and more power hungry. John From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Fri Jul 31 13:12:54 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P (337C)) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 06:12:54 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The $25 widget from Dataq. 4 channels, 10 bits, serial port http://www.dataq.com/products/startkit/di194rs.htm They have others. I've also used the Eval boards from Maxim or Nat Semi, but these day's they're usually USB. Sometimes, the protocol isn't published, but is trivially reverse engineerable from the demo program and a line monitor (inevitably, they talk USB, but emulate a COM port on the PC) OR they'll tell you the protocol if you ask. On 7/30/09 9:00 PM, "Matt Ettus" wrote: Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much appreciated. Thanks, Matt _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From iovane at inwind.it Fri Jul 31 13:35:40 2009 From: iovane at inwind.it (iovane at inwind.it) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:35:40 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring Message-ID: I would add to this scenario the solution I've used for many years, the AD12 card shown at about mid page at: http://www.micromed.it/Elettronica/schede.html It is a 12 bit + sign, 8 single ended or 4 differential channels, AD converter with RS232 interface. Resolution is 1 mV, conversion time 8.8 microsec. The only issue is that you will have to write your programs yourself. Very low power consumption, good accuracy, it is still my preferred "long-term" measuring device, even for single channel measurements. I can make about 2000 measurements per seconds on a 300 MHz Centrino laptop running DOS. Easy to keep under UPS along with the laptop. I've not tested this, but I think it could be powered, skipping the onboard 5V regulator, from a USB or mouse port of the laptop. It has its own voltage reference onboard (doesn't rely on the 5V regulator). Antonio I8IOV From tvb at LeapSecond.com Fri Jul 31 14:25:53 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 07:25:53 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring References: <4BAEB8BFFB0D4E628262E793CA20D055@pc52> Message-ID: Matt, Another RS232 DAQ that I've used often in the lab is model 232SDA12 from B&B Electronics. See: /tvb From masondg44 at comcast.net Fri Jul 31 15:14:10 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:14:10 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring (Matt Ettus) References: Message-ID: <59821423F5A740839BFEA5B5A23616C0@D77M7BF1> > Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 21:00:51 -0700 > From: Matt Ettus > Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages > at the same time? I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would > need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. > > Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much > appreciated. > > Thanks, > Matt > I recommend the Labjack model U12 USB DAQ unit. http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u12.php?prodId=27. It has eight 12-bit analog inputs with a +/- 10V range. The programming interface is through an open API (provided, with good documentation and support). Languages supported include Visual Basic, Power Basic, Visual C++, Delphi, Perl, Java, etc. A good number of programming examples are provided on the Labjack web site. An active forum is available as well. $129 USD plus S&H. Lots of digital I/O as well, if you need it for other functions. Dave M masondg44 at comcast dot net From masondg44 at comcast.net Fri Jul 31 15:30:36 2009 From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 11:30:36 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 60, Issue 120 References: Message-ID: <790D1C7F2B784A9B9BF79A8E1B59C38B@D77M7BF1> >Date: Thu, 30 Jul 2009 09:42:24 -0700 >From: "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Distribution Amp project >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >Message-ID: <4A71CD70.3000806 at karlquist.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >Dave M wrote: > >> I haven't been able to find schematics for the Extron DA, but according >> to >> the author's discussion, it seems to be very similar to the DA circuit >> schematics at http://www.ko4bb.com/~bruce/IsolationAmplifiers.html. I >> haven't had time to reverse engineer the circuit in my Extron DA, but it >> surely would be nice to avoid it if possible. Anyone have a schematic, >> or a >> source for it? > >In the KO4BB citation, the common base discrete amps are going to give >considerably better performance than the video distribution amplifier >you were asking about. > >Rick Karlquist N6RK Thanks for that, rick. I know that the KO4BB circuits will be much quieter than the Extron DA, but since I already have one of the Extron units, I was hoping to hear from someone who had put the described project through a bit of testing, just to see how good or bad it really is. Guess I'll have to do a bit of experimentation to determine its suitability for my small lab. As I said in my original post, I only need to distribute a few standard frequencies; not timing. If it doesn't add a significant amount of noise, it might suffice until I run across a better DA at a good price. Thanks for all the responses. Dave M A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says after that is the beginning of a new argument. From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jul 31 17:25:50 2009 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 10:25:50 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring (Matt Ettus) In-Reply-To: <4A72E905.1000503@febo.com> References: <331803.41640.qm@web23104.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4A72E905.1000503@febo.com> Message-ID: <5d6b62ed0cf91f80c8b10c4cab991335.squirrel@petelancashire.com> Be careful on buying scanners. The issue is not the scanner but in the fact that they use plug in cards. Make sure you get the type of interface card(s) you need. There are a lot of HP/Agilent scanners out there minus all their cards. Saying that you can anything from a 3421A to a rack size scanners for less the $25. The 3421A's usually go for a bit more since they are small. If space and power is not an issue you can get a 3497A with its integral DMM (option 001) and a input MUX card (option 010) for at times less the $25 minus shipping. The last three I got were free minus the 120 mile round trip. On the flip side I got about 2,000 ft of double braided low noise Teflon insulated wire tossed in. The down size is they are big. The plus is you can get many different I/O cards and use it for other projects. -pete > Marc Bury wrote: >> Hi Matt, >> >> A Hewlet Packard 3421A (Data acquisition unit) with option 20 (10 >> channel multiplexer) and GPIB would fit your need withour emptying your >> wallet. > > I can vouch for the 3421A -- nice, inexpensive box that is low power and > fairly painless to program. There are other HP data aquisition/switch > boxes, including one with a 5 1/2 digit DMM, but they are much bigger > and more power hungry. > > John > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 19:35:35 2009 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:35:35 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Stanford Telecom units Message-ID: <67abbca30907311235w66a39686w460071123bda9eae@mail.gmail.com> Before I put these on flea bay, I thought I'd see if there was any interest here. These are Stanford Telecom GPS units of some variety I believe: model 5440 coder / data demod and 5430 baseband coder (featuring I/Q input). I have no other information. If there's no interest, they go onto da bay. No reasonable offer refused - unreasonable offers ignored. From david.kirkby at onetel.net Fri Jul 31 21:40:16 2009 From: david.kirkby at onetel.net (Dr. David Kirkby) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:40:16 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] beryllium oxide In-Reply-To: References: <20090116182843.207E9116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <248002.32823.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A7364C0.80701@onetel.net> Marco IK1ODO wrote: > Robert, > >> Some power tubesmay use it internally. > > As far as I know, from many discussions with power tube > manufacturers, no power tube uses beryllia, except for that > conduction-cooled Eimac tubes. It's simply not needed. > Other tubes (not power ones) may be different, but I never heard of > any beryllia in them. > > Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF I believe some of the bases for the conduction cooled tubes use BeO too. I might be wrong on this. I have a few sitting in the garage somewhere. I doubt there is any point having it inside air/water/vapor cooled tubes From david.kirkby at onetel.net Fri Jul 31 21:41:17 2009 From: david.kirkby at onetel.net (Dr. David Kirkby) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 22:41:17 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] beryllium oxide In-Reply-To: <4A7364C0.80701@onetel.net> References: <20090116182843.207E9116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net> <248002.32823.qm@web27103.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <4A7364C0.80701@onetel.net> Message-ID: <4A7364FD.9020304@onetel.net> Dr. David Kirkby wrote: > Marco IK1ODO wrote: >> Robert, >> >>> Some power tubesmay use it internally. >> >> As far as I know, from many discussions with power tube manufacturers, >> no power tube uses beryllia, except for that conduction-cooled Eimac >> tubes. It's simply not needed. >> Other tubes (not power ones) may be different, but I never heard of >> any beryllia in them. >> >> Marco IK1ODO / AI4YF > > I believe some of the bases for the conduction cooled tubes use BeO too. > I might be wrong on this. I have a few sitting in the garage somewhere. > > I doubt there is any point having it inside air/water/vapor cooled tubes Sorry, just realised I replied to something written ages ago. From boyscout at gmail.com Fri Jul 31 22:44:23 2009 From: boyscout at gmail.com (Matt Ettus) Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2009 15:44:23 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Multiple Voltage monitoring In-Reply-To: <4BAEB8BFFB0D4E628262E793CA20D055@pc52> References: <4BAEB8BFFB0D4E628262E793CA20D055@pc52> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 30, 2009 at 10:17 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote: >> Does anyone have a good solution for monitoring 4-8 different voltages >> at the same time? ?I only need a sample rate around 1-2 Hz, but would >> need GPIB, serial, or ethernet support with protocol documentation. >> >> Any help identifying a solution other than 8 voltmeters would be much >> appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> Matt > > Check out http://www.labjack.com > > /tvb Thanks to everyone for the great suggestions, and to Tom in particular for the LabJack suggestion. I hadn't heard of many of those companies. In the end, I decided to go with the LabJack UE9, which is inexpensive, flexible, and has an ethernet interface. LabJack seems to be very supportive of open source, their protocols are all open, and they even provide Linux, Mac, and Python drivers! Also interesting, check out: http://cloud.labjack.com This is their data acquisition server service... Very cool idea. Matt