From cdelect at juno.com Sun Mar 1 01:02:52 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 17:02:52 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! Message-ID: <20090228.170252.3012.4.cdelect@juno.com> Well after re-researcing the pinouts again I decided to post this while they are fresh. These Pinouts are for units removed from FTS Cesium standards and were verified by measurement in the standard. PIN 1000B 1000A-100 1200 9110 1 EFC ground EFC ground EFC ground EFC ground 2 EFC +- 10V EFC +- 10V EFC 0 to +10V EFC 0 to +10V 3 coarse tune wiper NC NC NC 4 +12 pot ref. (10K) NC NC NC 5 Ground Ground Ground Ground 6 oven mon. oven mon. oven mon. oven mon. 7 +28V oven +18V oven NC NC 8 +28V elect. +28V +28V +28V 9 case ground NC NC NC Hope this will help others! Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJFVrwUbhZLMoWdkMvKFgvKsveMbYvndjqBMzsnp5Ao03AENzO4/ From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com Sun Mar 1 17:40:34 2009 From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 06:40:34 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Wrong date on Samsung GCRU-D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My Samsung GPSDO is a very good and fairly new unit, but I've just spotted that the date it is reporting is incorrect! It should be 1 March, but it is reporting 29 Feb, and there isn't one this year. The GPS module I'm also running at present (u-BLOX Antaris) does report the date correctly. 73, Murray ZL1BPU From bill at iaxs.net Sun Mar 1 20:05:00 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:05:00 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Group, My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone antennas. I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16 feet tall. The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The mast rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits on a 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with stainless hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought to the deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003. The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is about half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both ends, so no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof boat deck fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a service loop to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported through the mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of the cables. Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA. The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I lost the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week or so later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna on Nov 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna went away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on holdover. I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N connector without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a cold weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and its braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit, looking at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801. Any thoughts, comments or ideas? Bill Hawkins From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 1 21:23:40 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 10:23:40 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: <49AAFCDC.3060704@xtra.co.nz> Bill The coefficient of thermal expansion of solid PE is around 12x that of copper (17x that of steel), so its seems unlikely that the the inner conductor would contract faster than the surrounding solid polytethylene dielectric. However this only applies when the polyethylene and the inner conductor are at the same temperature. Perhaps thermal hysteresis of the dielectric during temperature cycling fractured the inner conductor? Foam dielectric cables should have lower stress due to temperature changes, but may need better support. Bruce Bill Hawkins wrote: > Group, > > My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone > antennas. > I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16 > feet tall. > The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The > mast > rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits > on a > 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with > stainless > hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought > to the > deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003. > > The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is > about > half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both > ends, so > no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof > boat deck > fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a > service loop > to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported > through the > mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of > the cables. > > Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA. > > The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I > lost > the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week > or so > later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna > on Nov > 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna > went > away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on > holdover. > > I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N > connector > without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a > cold > weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and > its > braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit, > looking > at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801. > > Any thoughts, comments or ideas? > > Bill Hawkins > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 1 22:20:30 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 11:20:30 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: <49AB0A2E.5060709@xtra.co.nz> Bill What type of solder did you use? Some ROHS solders are prone to thermal fatigue. Bruce Bill Hawkins wrote: > Group, > > My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone > antennas. > I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16 > feet tall. > The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The > mast > rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits > on a > 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with > stainless > hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought > to the > deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003. > > The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is > about > half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both > ends, so > no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof > boat deck > fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a > service loop > to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported > through the > mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of > the cables. > > Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA. > > The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I > lost > the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week > or so > later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna > on Nov > 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna > went > away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on > holdover. > > I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N > connector > without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a > cold > weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and > its > braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit, > looking > at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801. > > Any thoughts, comments or ideas? > > Bill Hawkins > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Mar 1 22:48:48 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 14:48:48 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: Bill, Is your signal degradation sudden or gradual as correlated with outside temperature? How well sealed is your outdoor connector? Maybe moisture or thin layer of ice at the cable-connector-antenna junction? Monitoring antenna voltage & current could be a good clue to the source of the problem. Those HP hockey puck or cone antennas are used in cell towers all over; it seems unlikely it would be the fault in the antenna itself. Richard -- do you see any of these on cell sites in Fairbanks? /tvb From alan.melia at btinternet.com Sun Mar 1 22:57:08 2009 From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 22:57:08 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: <008a01c99ac1$122a56a0$0900a8c0@AM> I am sure it is NOT a good idea to hand heavy cable like RG-8 from the N-type connector. What will hapen is that the cable will walk out of the connector and the centre pin will withdraw from the socket. This happens whilst the outer jacket stretches so there is no indiction there is a physical problem. This can happen very quickly but does depend on the strain put on the cable (Amateur Radio field-day experience !!) You should always loop the cable and take the strain off the connector totally. Take the cable down and remake it, add strain relief, and all will probably be well. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Hawkins" To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 8:05 PM Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > Group, > > My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone > antennas. > I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16 > feet tall. > The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The > mast > rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits > on a > 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with > stainless > hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought > to the > deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003. > > The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is > about > half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both > ends, so > no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof > boat deck > fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a > service loop > to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported > through the > mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of > the cables. > > Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA. > > The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I > lost > the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week > or so > later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna > on Nov > 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna > went > away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on > holdover. > > I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N > connector > without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a > cold > weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and > its > braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit, > looking > at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801. > > Any thoughts, comments or ideas? > > Bill Hawkins > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From jim77742 at gmail.com Sun Mar 1 23:06:38 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:06:38 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: All those lengths and temperatures in some weird old fashioned measuring system make my head spin. 2009/3/2 Bill Hawkins > Group, > > My GPS time system consists of two Z3801A receivers with two HP cone > antennas. > I built a mast from plastic pipe (6" base to 2" arms) that is about 16 > feet tall. > The antennas are 4 feet apart, each 2' from the center of the mast. The > mast > rises from a deck and is fastened 8' up at the roof line. The mast sits > on a > 3/4" sheet of high density marine plastic fastened to the deck with > stainless > hinges so that the antenna can be folded away from the house and brought > to the > deck railing. The mast was put up in 2003. > > The antenna cables are each half of a 100' coil of RG-8U. Each cable is > about > half in the house and half outdoors. N connectors are soldered to both > ends, so > no adapters are used. The cables leave the house through a waterproof > boat deck > fitting and travel about 5' under the deck to the mast. There's a > service loop > to allow the mast to be lowered, then the cables rise unsupported > through the > mast pipe and branch out to the antennas, which support the weight of > the cables. > > Oh, and the location is Minneapolis, MN, USA. > > The problem is loss of signal during cold weather. Last winter (07-08) I > lost > the signal from one antenna during a cold snap, but it came back a week > or so > later when it warmed up outside. This winter, I lost The North antenna > on Nov > 22 when the low was 15, and it didn't come back. Then the South antenna > went > away on Dec 24 with a -17 low and didn't come back. I'm still running on > holdover. > > I suspect that it's not a good idea to hang 20 feet of RG-8 from an N > connector > without some kind of strain relief, but I don't know why that would be a > cold > weather effect. Perhaps the center conductor shrinks more than cable and > its > braid, and pulls the center pin out. There's definitely an open circuit, > looking > at the receiver end of the cable. There's no alarm from the Z3801. > > Any thoughts, comments or ideas? > > Bill Hawkins > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Sun Mar 1 23:50:39 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 15:50:39 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: Message from "Alan Melia" of "Sun, 01 Mar 2009 22:57:08 GMT." <008a01c99ac1$122a56a0$0900a8c0@AM> Message-ID: <20090301235040.0FF9BBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Take the cable down and remake it, add strain relief, and all will > probably be well. Is there a standard trick for how to do the strain relief when the antenna is setup to have the cable go up the inside of the mounting pipe? --------- Thanks everybody for all the roof/antenna hints from a week ago. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 00:11:20 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 16:11:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <20090301235040.0FF9BBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <990631.27604.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If your side arm is using a elbow now replace?it with a tee. Stanley? ________________________________ From: Hal Murray To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 5:50:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > Take the cable down and remake it, add strain relief,? and all will > probably be well. Is there a standard trick for how to do the strain relief when the antenna is setup to have the cable go up the inside of the mounting pipe? --------- Thanks everybody for all the roof/antenna hints from a week ago. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.? I hate spam. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Mon Mar 2 01:15:02 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 17:15:02 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: Message from Stanley Reynolds of "Sun, 01 Mar 2009 16:11:20 PST." <990631.27604.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If > your side arm is using a elbow now replace?it with a tee. Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? I was thinking of the simple case with only a simple vertical pipe to a single antenna, no side arms. Maybe the answer is that you can't support the cable in the really simple case of one vertical pipe with the antenna on top. If you want to support the cable you have to have some other setup so you can get at the cable. How about a different question? How much cable can a connector support? How would I support a cable anyway? I'm thinking of something like a Chinese finger trap with a string on one end that gets attached to a string. Are there cable clamp gizmos that are tight enough to grab but loose enough not to distort the cable and also work over temperature cycling and ... Is low loss coax stiff enough that I can support it from the bottom and push it up into a pipe? (I'm assuming the pipe is narrow enough and/or the coax is stiff enough to hold the coax in place.) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From stanw1le at verizon.net Mon Mar 2 01:56:17 2009 From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 20:56:17 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> a couple of suggestions: 1. Use a captive center pin on the N male connector. for example, Kings Electronics Inc. N male, model # KN-59-176 for RG-214 coaxial cable, center pin is solder type and captive, will not move axially. Wrench clamp on the shield. Kings cage = 91836 mil spec: M39012/01-0005 a few bucks each 2. consider adding a foam in place insulation, inside the plastic pipe to support the coaxial cable. drill a 1/8" hole every few feet and squirt in the aerosol foam till it comes out of the hole. Go for the minimally expanding insulating foam you will find in Home Depot or Lowes. Stan, W1LE Fn41sr Cape Cod Hal Murray wrote: >> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If >> your side arm is using a elbow now replace it with a tee. >> > > Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. > > Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? > > From alanh137 at comcast.net Mon Mar 2 02:13:36 2009 From: alanh137 at comcast.net (Alan Hochhalter) Date: Sun, 01 Mar 2009 18:13:36 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <49AB40D0.9020200@comcast.net> How about something like these cable grips? http://www.deltaelectricproducts.com/ (This is just an example to show what I'm talking about. I'm sure a local electrical supplier has them.) You'd have to figure out the cable routing and attachment, but it should take the strain off the connector. It seems like I saw something on one of the ham radio supplier sites for coax cable support, but can't find it now. Not sure if its the same thing. Alan From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Mon Mar 2 04:01:52 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 20:01:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Message-ID: <154285.61920.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Hal Murray To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 7:15:02 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Pipe / mast , the idea was to allow the feed line to exit the mast and be supported on the outside. A whole drilled in the pile would do as long as the bend radius for the cable is maintained, maybe drill the hole at a 45 degree angle or cut a vertical slot in the mast. Just don't reduce the strength too much with a big hole?but if this was toward the top less strength is needed. I like the foam idea but you would need a new mast if the cable needs repair later. The foam could add strength and reduce wind sway. Maybe combine the two, strengthen mast below the exit hole with foam and seal the exit hole with some foam that could be removed if necessary. Stanley > Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If > your side arm is using a elbow now replace?it with a tee. Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? From w1ksz at earthlink.net Mon Mar 2 04:52:20 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 23:52:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Message-ID: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> One reason why I prefer crimp-on connectors. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: Stan W1LE >Sent: Mar 1, 2009 8:56 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > >a couple of suggestions: > >1. Use a captive center pin on the N male connector. >for example, Kings Electronics Inc. N male, model # KN-59-176 for RG-214 >coaxial cable, >center pin is solder type and captive, will not move axially. Wrench >clamp on the shield. >Kings cage = 91836 >mil spec: M39012/01-0005 > >a few bucks each > >2. consider adding a foam in place insulation, inside the plastic pipe >to support the coaxial cable. >drill a 1/8" hole every few feet and squirt in the aerosol foam till it >comes out of the hole. >Go for the minimally expanding insulating foam you will find in Home >Depot or Lowes. > >Stan, W1LE Fn41sr Cape Cod > > >Hal Murray wrote: >>> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If >>> your side arm is using a elbow now replace it with a tee. >>> >> >> Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. >> >> Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 06:20:28 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 19:20:28 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop into the connector. 2009/3/2 Richard W. Solomon : > One reason why I prefer crimp-on connectors. > > 73, Dick, W1KSZ > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Stan W1LE >>Sent: Mar 1, 2009 8:56 PM >>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem >> >>a couple of suggestions: >> >>1. Use a captive center pin on the N male connector. >>for example, Kings Electronics Inc. N male, model # KN-59-176 for RG-214 >>coaxial cable, >>center pin is solder type and captive, will not move axially. Wrench >>clamp on the shield. >>Kings cage = 91836 >>mil spec: ?M39012/01-0005 >> >>a few bucks each >> >>2. consider adding a foam in place insulation, inside the plastic pipe >>to support the coaxial cable. >>drill a 1/8" hole every few feet and squirt in the aerosol foam till it >>comes out of the hole. >>Go for the minimally expanding insulating foam you will find in Home >>Depot or Lowes. >> >>Stan, W1LE ? ?Fn41sr ? ?Cape Cod >> >> >>Hal Murray wrote: >>>> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If >>>> your side arm is using a elbow now replace it with a tee. >>>> >>> >>> Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. >>> >>> Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From djl at montana.com Mon Mar 2 06:37:10 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Sun, 1 Mar 2009 23:37:10 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <001801c99b01$51045200$0700a8c0@OFFICE2> Your chinese finger trap supports are available at any reasonably sized electrical supply house. Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > >> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If >> your side arm is using a elbow now replace it with a tee. > > Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. > > Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? > > I was thinking of the simple case with only a simple vertical pipe to a > single antenna, no side arms. > > Maybe the answer is that you can't support the cable in the really simple > case of one vertical pipe with the antenna on top. If you want to support > the cable you have to have some other setup so you can get at the cable. > > How about a different question? How much cable can a connector support? > > How would I support a cable anyway? I'm thinking of something like a > Chinese > finger trap with a string on one end that gets attached to a string. Are > there cable clamp gizmos that are tight enough to grab but loose enough > not > to distort the cable and also work over temperature cycling and ... > > Is low loss coax stiff enough that I can support it from the bottom and > push > it up into a pipe? (I'm assuming the pipe is narrow enough and/or the > coax > is stiff enough to hold the coax in place.) > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From REMartinson at rcn.com Mon Mar 2 07:00:57 2009 From: REMartinson at rcn.com (Bob Martinson) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 02:00:57 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Why not juts use Ty-raps as we do in the commercial world (black ones for outdoor use)? 72, Bob, K1REM -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:20 AM To: Richard W. Solomon; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop into the connector. 2009/3/2 Richard W. Solomon : > One reason why I prefer crimp-on connectors. > > 73, Dick, W1KSZ > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Stan W1LE >>Sent: Mar 1, 2009 8:56 PM >>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem >> >>a couple of suggestions: >> >>1. Use a captive center pin on the N male connector. >>for example, Kings Electronics Inc. N male, model # KN-59-176 for RG-214 >>coaxial cable, >>center pin is solder type and captive, will not move axially. Wrench >>clamp on the shield. >>Kings cage = 91836 >>mil spec: ?M39012/01-0005 >> >>a few bucks each >> >>2. consider adding a foam in place insulation, inside the plastic pipe >>to support the coaxial cable. >>drill a 1/8" hole every few feet and squirt in the aerosol foam till it >>comes out of the hole. >>Go for the minimally expanding insulating foam you will find in Home >>Depot or Lowes. >> >>Stan, W1LE ? ?Fn41sr ? ?Cape Cod >> >> >>Hal Murray wrote: >>>> Two or one tee connectors will allow the cable to exit and reenter. If >>>> your side arm is using a elbow now replace it with a tee. >>>> >>> >>> Thanks, but I don't picture what you are trying to describe. >>> >>> Are you talking about tees and elbows in the pipe or cable? >>> >>> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Mar 2 08:09:33 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 09:09:33 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> References: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop > into the connector. No. The glue of Gaffa tape ages. Also, it is not very nice to the cable. Gaffa should not be used for permanent installations. For temporary installations I prefer using a strap (no the narrow plastic straps, but the wither weave-type, not sure what they are called in english) running at least one turn around the cable. Dropping cable that way helps. For longer runs the cable should be strapped to some fixed structure or a steel wire and done in such a way that the cable is not fully stretched, so that each strap-point actually takes the force of the cable downto the next strap-point. This way the cable does not get to carry heavy loads, which it is not designed for, the dielectrum does not get a firm grip around the center wire... In general Gaffa should be used conservative and only for short periods of time as removing the glue becomes an issue and even more annoying as it has dried out and hardend to the surface but lost the grip to the actual tape... which makes the grip brittle. Cheers, Magnus From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 08:37:50 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 21:37:50 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903020037s7921d9a6j8ebfc963b07eca28@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/2 Magnus Danielson : > Steve Rooke skrev: >> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >> into the connector. > > No. The glue of Gaffa tape ages. Also, it is not very nice to the cable. Buy decent gaffa tape, not the duct tape variant :) Sorry, I agree with you really Magnus. I was more indicating that the cable does need to be supported by being attached to the mast structure than have all that weight on the poor connector. Gaffa is great for temporary work where is is tough and sticks well, and is easy to tear-down an installation. Using black wide cable ties for the antenna cable would be an idea and be easy to take down too. 73, Steve > Gaffa should not be used for permanent installations. For temporary > installations I prefer using a strap (no the narrow plastic straps, but > the wither weave-type, not sure what they are called in english) running > at least one turn around the cable. Dropping cable that way helps. For > longer runs the cable should be strapped to some fixed structure or a > steel wire and done in such a way that the cable is not fully stretched, > so that each strap-point actually takes the force of the cable downto > the next strap-point. This way the cable does not get to carry heavy > loads, which it is not designed for, the dielectrum does not get a firm > grip around the center wire... > > In general Gaffa should be used conservative and only for short periods > of time as removing the glue becomes an issue and even more annoying as > it has dried out and hardend to the surface but lost the grip to the > actual tape... which makes the grip brittle. There's too many sensible people on this forum :) > Cheers, > Magnus > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Mon Mar 2 10:22:03 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 02:22:03 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: Message from Steve Rooke of "Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:20:28 +1300." <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop > into the connector. That assumes the cable gets to the outside of the pipe. I was interested in the case where the antenna sits directly on the top of the pipe (not a bracket off to the side). Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with threads where the pipe attaches. The coax has to go up the inside of the mounting pipe. You can also use a bracket, but it's setup for the inside-the-pipe approach. Here is a drawing: http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/anttiming3000_tn888.pdf For a setup like that, I don't see how to get tape or anything else inside the pipe, so the coax will end up hanging from the connector. So the question is how much coax can you hang from a connector? Clearly a foot or 3 is reasonable because you need that much for a drip loop. How about 6 ft? 20 ft? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From alan.melia at btinternet.com Mon Mar 2 10:43:25 2009 From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:43:25 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <20090301235040.0FF9BBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <004501c99b28$14c63160$0900a8c0@AM> Hi Hal, No, not as far as I know, and it is only intended to happen for a short (stub mast) distancce. The method I would use is to cable cleat two or three pieces of cord (use two or three cleats "in series" over 2 or 3 inches of jacket) on the jacket/sheath before dropping the cable down the tube. Support the weight of the cable on these....it will depend on your fixings etc....you may need to drill small exit holes or slots for the cord exit. Fasten the cords to take the weight, keeping the strain off the N-type brain clamp. Messy but essential. The used of adhesive shrink-sleeeving on the N-type body and the sheath my also give some extra support. The sheath and braid will stretch inder the weight whereas the inner and inner dielectic will not, this is what causes the pin whidrawal. I believe. How much cable will a connector support??....none in my opinion!! The creep will just take longer! Practically maybe a couple of feet, it depends on the stiffness of the sheath material. Another thought is that if you are using heavy cable like RG-8, force it back up the mast an tie-wap it at the bottom as well. This wont work with RG-58 though. Richard, crimp connetxors dont solve the problem either because the weight is supported on the braid. They need adhesive shrink as well to provide jacket to connector-body support even in normal applications. I have repaired a lot of crimp connector systems that have failed this way, just under flexing and not any weight. I think it is what gives the system a bad name in some quarters. Alan G3NYK. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:50 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > > > Take the cable down and remake it, add strain relief, and all will > > probably be well. > > Is there a standard trick for how to do the strain relief when the antenna is > setup to have the cable go up the inside of the mounting pipe? > > --------- > > Thanks everybody for all the roof/antenna hints from a week ago. > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 11:54:48 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 00:54:48 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903020354r204fddf9w47105fd770701951@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/2 Hal Murray : > >> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >> into the connector. > > That assumes the cable gets to the outside of the pipe. ?I was interested in > the case where the antenna sits directly on the top of the pipe (not a > bracket off to the side). Find a rubber cork, or something which will not deteriorate, that is a tight fit for the inside of the pipe. Drill a hole in it to pass the coax through. Leave enough coax out of the cork to attach to the antenna and then press the cork into the pipe. The short length of coax at the top will not be a strain on the connector and the action of squeezing the cork into the pipe will further grip the coax to stop it travelling downwards. You can also add a cable tie round the cable just above the cork to stop it slipping down. Just an idea. 73, Steve > Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with > threads where the pipe attaches. ?The coax has to go up the inside of the > mounting pipe. ?You can also use a bracket, but it's setup for the > inside-the-pipe approach. > > Here is a drawing: > ?http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/anttiming3000_tn888.pdf > > For a setup like that, I don't see how to get tape or anything else inside > the pipe, so the coax will end up hanging from the connector. > > So the question is how much coax can you hang from a connector? > > Clearly a foot or 3 is reasonable because you need that much for a drip loop. > ?How about 6 ft? ?20 ft? > > > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. ?I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 12:01:29 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 01:01:29 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for pinouts and specs for Vectron Labs ocxos Message-ID: <1231b6a80903020401m7248cb3fs7fee9a20013967d3@mail.gmail.com> I'm trying to find the connection details and specs for a couple of Vectron Labs ocxo models 225-7639 and 217-8364. They look similar to the CO-705/6/7S series oscillators but are obviously a discontinued series.. Thanks and 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From martyn at ptsyst.com Mon Mar 2 13:05:35 2009 From: martyn at ptsyst.com (Martyn Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 13:05:35 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <460CDEDE43704A81A0A188CD913E220A@MartynDesktop> Hello All, I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, running Windows 95. I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge on the 3048A software and how it works. I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. Has anyone successfully done this? Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the software to talk to the GPIB interface? Any help would be much appreciated. Best Regards Martyn From sar10538 at gmail.com Mon Mar 2 16:27:03 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 05:27:03 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903020354r204fddf9w47105fd770701951@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <1231b6a80903020354r204fddf9w47105fd770701951@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903020827q37573a6fsb23ab072593d83e6@mail.gmail.com> Just as a followup, here's some other ideas: When I worked for British Telecom (it was called Post Office Telephones then) as an apprentice I woked on undergroud work for a while. Telephone cables were lead sheathed and the joints were made in a shoth lenght of large diameter lead pipe. A lot of these joints were lead soldered but some were sealed by a compressible gland at each end. The gland was made of a thick disk of black rubber which would fit snugly but freely inside the joint sleeve. Either side of the rubber disk was a brass blate slightly smaller in diameter than the rubber. There were holes through the gland to allow the cables to enter and this was a snugh but free fit on the cable, and with the brass plate holes being a bit larger than the cable holes. The two brass plates were held either side of the rubber by brass bolts which went through clearance holes on the outside and were threaded in the rear brass plate. The idea is that the cables went through the glands were they were jointed. The joint then went into the joint sleeve and the gland was pushed just inside the sleeve. The bolts were then tightened to compress the rubber gland which then made a tight mechanical and waterproof (hopefully) seal to the joint. You could do something similar with a gland fitted into the antenna support pole which would grip the cable firmly in place but allow it to be removed easily. A bit of engineering, I know, but an idea. Another option would be to find a piece of bamboo or doweling which would fit inside the antenna post along with the cable. The cable could then the cable tied to this stick and run up the inside of the antenna support with the base of the stick fixed to the bottom of the antenna pole. And while I'm at it, how about some builders expanding foam. You could hold the cable in the pipe and squirt the foam into the pipe where it would expand to grip the sides of the pole and the cable as well. A cable tie round the coax should stop the cable falling down in the event of shrinkage. Bit messy though. As the pipe being mentioned was plastic plumbing supplies, you could find a flat piece of the same plastic and using a hole cutting saw, cut out a disk with a tight fit into the pipe. Make the hole in the middle to fit the cable and glue it a few inches down the pipe with the pipe sealing glue for plumbing. Just need to put a cable tie on the coax for cable relief to stop it dropping down and attach it to the antenna. You could also find a wood plug the same size as the inside of the antenna pipe. Make a hole through the middle , lower it into the pipe, drill a small hole through the side of the pipe and secure the wood plug with a short wood screw. Just need to use the same old cable tie strain relief again. Just some random ideas, sorry for taking you time on an off topic subject. 73, Steve. 2009/3/3 Steve Rooke : > 2009/3/2 Hal Murray : >> >>> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >>> into the connector. >> >> That assumes the cable gets to the outside of the pipe. ?I was interested in >> the case where the antenna sits directly on the top of the pipe (not a >> bracket off to the side). > > Find a rubber cork, or something which will not deteriorate, that is a > tight fit for the inside of the pipe. Drill a hole in it to pass the > coax through. Leave enough coax ?out of the cork to attach to the > antenna and then press the cork into the pipe. The short length of > coax at the top will not be a strain on the connector and the action > of squeezing the cork into the pipe will further grip the coax to stop > it travelling downwards. You can also add a cable tie round the cable > just above the cork to stop it slipping down. > > Just an idea. > > 73, Steve > >> Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with >> threads where the pipe attaches. ?The coax has to go up the inside of the >> mounting pipe. ?You can also use a bracket, but it's setup for the >> inside-the-pipe approach. >> >> Here is a drawing: >> ?http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/anttiming3000_tn888.pdf >> >> For a setup like that, I don't see how to get tape or anything else inside >> the pipe, so the coax will end up hanging from the connector. >> >> So the question is how much coax can you hang from a connector? >> >> Clearly a foot or 3 is reasonable because you need that much for a drip loop. >> ?How about 6 ft? ?20 ft? >> >> >> >> >> -- >> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. ?I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 16:36:30 2009 From: paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk (paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 16:36:30 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Time stamping Message-ID: <49AC0B0E.1050000@greenrover.demon.co.uk> I'm currently writing a little utility to measure frequency and store it to a file, simple stuff and its only for me so my question has little importance in the great scheme of things... but.. If I measure a frequency with my counter using a ten second gate time. Is it convention to time stamp the beginning, middle or end of this period? Regards Paul -- 73 de Paul GW8IZR IO73TI http://www.gw8izr.com From EWKehren at aol.com Mon Mar 2 16:45:39 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:45:39 EST Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna Information Message-ID: Cleaning house I ran across a Trimble/Navigation Avionics P/N 16248-20. Looks new. Does any one have any information about this antenna? L1/L2, gain, feed voltage? Thanks Bert in Miami WB5MZJ **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From jmiles at pop.net Mon Mar 2 16:51:33 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 08:51:33 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: <460CDEDE43704A81A0A188CD913E220A@MartynDesktop> Message-ID: Short answer: download an eval copy of TransEra HTBasic (purchasable for about $1000 US/seat, usable for 30 minutes at a time otherwise). Then unzip a copy of the HP RMB software that's been tweaked to make it more compatible with the emulator, at http://www.ke5fx.com/3048A_X01.zip . Set up the emulator according to the readme.txt file. You can run the emulator with a National Instruments GPIB board. I don't know if it works with the HP interfaces or not. The docs for the 3048A system itself are at http://www.hparchive.com/hp_equipment.htm , near the bottom of the table. This is an arcane, patience-trying process, and not all functions and features work properly. But that's how you get to ~-180 dBc/Hz for free! -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Martyn Smith > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 5:06 AM > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System > > > Hello All, > > I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. > > I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, running > Windows 95. > > I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge on the 3048A > software and how it works. > > I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. > > Has anyone successfully done this? > > Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the software to > talk to the GPIB interface? > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Best Regards > > Martyn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From djl at montana.com Mon Mar 2 17:14:11 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:14:11 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: <460CDEDE43704A81A0A188CD913E220A@MartynDesktop> References: <460CDEDE43704A81A0A188CD913E220A@MartynDesktop> Message-ID: <1179.216.14.243.135.1236014051.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Hardware can be inexpensive. An Australian firm called Softmark sells an USB to GPIB interface on ebay for about $35 or so. I have one, and it works. Software is another problem entirely. If you do not have the source code for the Hp program, you will need the manual for the 3048 with all the needed info. I've found the GPIB to be difficult sometimes. The Softmark comes with a dll that can be used with Visual Basic; I'd advise VB6. Good luck. Don Martyn Smith > Hello All, > > I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. > > I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, running > Windows 95. > > I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge on the 3048A > software and how it works. > > I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. > > Has anyone successfully done this? > > Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the software to > talk to the GPIB interface? > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > Best Regards > > Martyn > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From mspencer12345 at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 2 17:19:11 2009 From: mspencer12345 at yahoo.ca (Mark Spencer) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <1231b6a80903020354r204fddf9w47105fd770701951@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903020827q37573a6fsb23ab072593d83e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <809198.98196.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Quote: Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with >> threads where the pipe attaches.? The coax has to go up the inside of the >> mounting pipe.? Just a data point.?? I have installed numerous 2 way radio antennas over the years that use this mounting method.??? As far as I can recall I have never used a mast longer than 5 feet and I have never had any issues with the coaxial cable or connectors.???? I'm not sure I would want to use a mast longer than five feet in this application but I don't have any real evidence to support my oppinion. In?a few weeks I hope to mount my first home GPS antenna using this mounting method (: I have also been involved in a project where long lengths of free hanging cable were required.??? (ie. hanging inside?the towers of a suspension bridge.)??? Special cables were used in this application.??? Sorry I don't know what the height limit is for free hanging conventional coaxial cable is but I'd hesitate to have more than 5 feet or so free hanging. Regards Mark Spencer VE7AFZ ? ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Rooke To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 8:27:03 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Just as a followup, here's some other ideas: When I worked for British Telecom (it was called Post Office Telephones then) as an apprentice I woked on undergroud work for a while. Telephone cables were lead sheathed and the joints were made in a shoth lenght of large diameter lead pipe. A lot of these joints were lead soldered but some were sealed by a compressible gland at each end. The gland was made of a thick disk of black rubber which would fit snugly but freely inside the joint sleeve. Either side of the rubber disk was a brass blate slightly smaller in diameter than the rubber. There were holes through the gland to allow the cables to enter and this was a snugh but free fit on the cable, and with the brass plate holes being a bit larger than the cable holes. The two brass plates were held either side of the rubber by brass bolts which went through clearance holes on the outside and were threaded in the rear brass plate. The idea is that the cables went through the glands were they were jointed. The joint then went into the joint sleeve and the gland was pushed just inside the sleeve. The bolts were then tightened to compress the rubber gland which then made a tight mechanical and waterproof (hopefully) seal to the joint. You could do something similar with a gland fitted into the antenna support pole which would grip the cable firmly in place but allow it to be removed easily. A bit of engineering, I know, but an idea. Another option would be to find a piece of bamboo or doweling which would fit inside the antenna post along with the cable. The cable could then the cable tied to this stick and run up the inside of the antenna support with the base of the stick fixed to the bottom of the antenna pole. And while I'm at it, how about some builders expanding foam. You could hold the cable in the pipe and squirt the foam into the pipe where it would expand to grip the sides of the pole and the cable as well. A cable tie round the coax should stop the cable falling down in the event of shrinkage. Bit messy though. As the pipe being mentioned was plastic plumbing supplies, you could find a flat piece of the same plastic and using a hole cutting saw, cut out a disk with a tight fit into the pipe. Make the hole in the middle to fit the cable and glue it a few inches down the pipe with the pipe sealing glue for plumbing. Just need to put a cable tie on the coax for cable relief to stop it dropping down and attach it to the antenna. You could also find a wood plug the same size as the inside of the antenna pipe. Make a hole through the middle , lower it into the pipe, drill a small hole through the side of the pipe and secure the wood plug with a short wood screw. Just need to use the same old cable tie strain relief again. Just some random ideas, sorry for taking you time on an off topic subject. 73, Steve. 2009/3/3 Steve Rooke : > 2009/3/2 Hal Murray : >> >>> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >>> into the connector. >> >> That assumes the cable gets to the outside of the pipe. ?I was interested in >> the case where the antenna sits directly on the top of the pipe (not a >> bracket off to the side). > > Find a rubber cork, or something which will not deteriorate, that is a > tight fit for the inside of the pipe. Drill a hole in it to pass the > coax through. Leave enough coax ?out of the cork to attach to the > antenna and then press the cork into the pipe. The short length of > coax at the top will not be a strain on the connector and the action > of squeezing the cork into the pipe will further grip the coax to stop > it travelling downwards. You can also add a cable tie round the cable > just above the cork to stop it slipping down. > > Just an idea. > > 73, Steve > >> Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place wiIn th >> threads where the pipe attaches. ?The coax has to go up the inside of the >> mounting pipe. ?You can also use a bracket, but it's setup for the >> inside-the-pipe approach. >> >> Here is a drawing: >> ?http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/anttiming3000_tn888.pdf >> >> For a setup like that, I don't see how to get tape or anything else inside >> the pipe, so the coax will end up hanging from the connector. >> >> So the question is how much coax can you hang from a connector? >> >> Clearly a foot or 3 is reasonable because you need that much for a drip loop. >> ?How about 6 ft? ?20 ft? >> >> >> >> >> -- >> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. ?I hate spam. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __________________________________________________________________ Instant Messaging, free SMS, sharing photos and more... Try the new Yahoo! Canada Messenger at http://ca.beta.messenger.yahoo.com/ From paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 17:32:01 2009 From: paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk (paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 17:32:01 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <809198.98196.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <1231b6a80903020354r204fddf9w47105fd770701951@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903020827q37573a6fsb23ab072593d83e6@mail.gmail.com> <809198.98196.qm@web38803.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49AC1811.3080208@greenrover.demon.co.uk> > Quote: > > Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with >>> threads where the pipe attaches. The coax has to go up the inside of the >>> mounting pipe. > Comscope do a stainless steel grip for this purpose, Its quite normal to hang LDF4-50 5-50 etc inside a 15m monopole with no support apart from one of these. Here is a different supplier with a similar product. http://www.cablegrip.co.uk/doubleye.php I think in the US you call them Klein grips? For home use you could very easily improvise one using nylon cord and a knot called a girth or prussic. HTH -- 73 de Paul GW8IZR IO73TI http://www.gw8izr.com From tvb at LeapSecond.com Mon Mar 2 17:55:12 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 09:55:12 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Time stamping References: <49AC0B0E.1050000@greenrover.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <7897B12C0D2D4E418AC739FE289057F2@pc52> > I'm currently writing a little utility to measure frequency and store it > to a file, simple stuff and its only for me so my question has little > importance in the great scheme of things... but.. > > If I measure a frequency with my counter using a ten second gate time. > Is it convention to time stamp the beginning, middle or end of this period? > > Regards Paul If you had a choice time stamp the instantaneous *phase* and skip *frequency* altogether. This solves all your problems. Not only do you get an unambiguous time stamp but you can also accurately compute frequency for averaging times that are 10 or a multiple of 10 seconds, now or anytime later from the log. Second choice, if you have to log frequency only, include the averaging time from which the frequency was calculated. Third choice, use the end of the averaging period and let the user infer the averaging time based on the previous entry in the log file. /tvb From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Mar 2 18:04:09 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 19:04:09 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903020037s7921d9a6j8ebfc963b07eca28@mail.gmail.com> References: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903020037s7921d9a6j8ebfc963b07eca28@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AC1F99.7010603@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > 2009/3/2 Magnus Danielson : >> Steve Rooke skrev: >>> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >>> into the connector. >> No. The glue of Gaffa tape ages. Also, it is not very nice to the cable. > > Buy decent gaffa tape, not the duct tape variant :) Even with really good stuff, it is not the long term solution you would like. > Sorry, I agree with you really Magnus. I was more indicating that the > cable does need to be supported by being attached to the mast > structure than have all that weight on the poor connector. Gaffa is > great for temporary work where is is tough and sticks well, and is > easy to tear-down an installation. Indeed. Temporary < 1 week > Using black wide cable ties for the antenna cable would be an idea and > be easy to take down too. Indeed. Cheers, Magnus From mspencer12345 at yahoo.ca Mon Mar 2 18:18:22 2009 From: mspencer12345 at yahoo.ca (Mark Spencer) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:18:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <10420530.1235969540478.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1231b6a80903012220gfc7e00fwe9af38a8445ff2af@mail.gmail.com> <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903020037s7921d9a6j8ebfc963b07eca28@mail.gmail.com> <49AC1F99.7010603@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <97236.8870.qm@web38807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In my experience high quality electrical tape (ie. 3m Scotch brand tape) will also?work?okay for securing cables to masts?if you cut the tape to length as opposed to stretching it to break it. High quality UV resistant cable ties are probably a better choice though but be carefull not to over tighten the cable ties. ----- Original Message ---- From: Magnus Danielson To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Sent: Monday, March 2, 2009 10:04:09 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem Steve Rooke skrev: > 2009/3/2 Magnus Danielson : >> Steve Rooke skrev: >>> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >>> into the connector. >> No. The glue of Gaffa tape ages. Also, it is not very nice to the cable. > > Buy decent gaffa tape, not the duct tape variant :) Even with really good stuff, it is not the long term solution you would like. > Sorry, I agree with you really Magnus. I was more indicating that the > cable does need to be supported by being attached to the mast > structure than have all that weight on the poor connector. Gaffa is > great for temporary work where is is tough and sticks well, and is > easy to tear-down an installation. Indeed. Temporary < 1 week > Using black wide cable ties for the antenna cable would be an idea and > be easy to take down too. Indeed. Cheers, Magnus _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __________________________________________________________________ Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! http://www.flickr.com/gift/ From jmiles at pop.net Mon Mar 2 18:48:43 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:48:43 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: <1179.216.14.243.135.1236014051.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Message-ID: Rest assured, you are not going to get the 3048A system (or pretty much anything else) working with a Softmark adapter. -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Don Latham > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:14 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System > > > Hardware can be inexpensive. An Australian firm called Softmark sells an > USB to GPIB interface on ebay for about $35 or so. I have one, and it > works. Software is another problem entirely. If you do not have the source > code for the Hp program, you will need the manual for the 3048 with all > the needed info. I've found the GPIB to be difficult sometimes. The > Softmark comes with a dll that can be used with Visual Basic; I'd advise > VB6. Good luck. > Don > > Martyn Smith > > Hello All, > > > > I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. > > > > I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, running > > Windows 95. > > > > I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge on the 3048A > > software and how it works. > > > > I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. > > > > Has anyone successfully done this? > > > > Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the > software to > > talk to the GPIB interface? > > > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > > > Best Regards > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > -- > Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL > Six Mile Systems LLP > 17850 Six Mile Road > POB 134 > Huson, MT, 59846 > VOX 406-626-4304 > www.lightningforensics.com > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jmiles at pop.net Mon Mar 2 18:56:08 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: (Sorry, that came across as somewhat snarkier than intended -- point being, the 3048A software expects to run on an HP controller or an emulator, and the emulators, in turn, can work only with full-featured GPIB controller boards. You're stuck with what the emulator author supports, and there's no way to make HTBasic talk to a Softmark or even a Prologix board.) -- john, KE5FX > -----Original Message----- > From: John Miles [mailto:jmiles at pop.net] > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:49 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: RE: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System > > > Rest assured, you are not going to get the 3048A system (or > pretty much anything else) working with a Softmark adapter. > > -- john, KE5FX > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > > Behalf Of Don Latham > > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:14 AM > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System > > > > > > Hardware can be inexpensive. An Australian firm called Softmark sells an > > USB to GPIB interface on ebay for about $35 or so. I have one, and it > > works. Software is another problem entirely. If you do not have > the source > > code for the Hp program, you will need the manual for the 3048 with all > > the needed info. I've found the GPIB to be difficult sometimes. The > > Softmark comes with a dll that can be used with Visual Basic; I'd advise > > VB6. Good luck. > > Don > > > > Martyn Smith > > > Hello All, > > > > > > I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. > > > > > > I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, running > > > Windows 95. > > > > > > I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge > on the 3048A > > > software and how it works. > > > > > > I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. > > > > > > Has anyone successfully done this? > > > > > > Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the > > software to > > > talk to the GPIB interface? > > > > > > Any help would be much appreciated. > > > > > > Best Regards > > > > > > Martyn > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > > To unsubscribe, go to > > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > > > -- > > Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL > > Six Mile Systems LLP > > 17850 Six Mile Road > > POB 134 > > Huson, MT, 59846 > > VOX 406-626-4304 > > www.lightningforensics.com > > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > From djl at montana.com Mon Mar 2 19:00:32 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 12:00:32 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4202.216.14.243.135.1236020432.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Hi John: Kinda wondered about that. I thought you'd have to write the software from scratch so to speak, reproducing the functions etc in something like VB. I was not clear enough on that point. You're right of course... Don John Miles > (Sorry, that came across as somewhat snarkier than intended -- point > being, > the 3048A software expects to run on an HP controller or an emulator, and > the emulators, in turn, can work only with full-featured GPIB controller > boards. You're stuck with what the emulator author supports, and there's > no > way to make HTBasic talk to a Softmark or even a Prologix board.) > > -- john, KE5FX > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Miles [mailto:jmiles at pop.net] >> Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 10:49 AM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: RE: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System >> >> >> Rest assured, you are not going to get the 3048A system (or >> pretty much anything else) working with a Softmark adapter. >> >> -- john, KE5FX >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On >> > Behalf Of Don Latham >> > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 9:14 AM >> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP3048A Phase Noise Test System >> > >> > >> > Hardware can be inexpensive. An Australian firm called Softmark sells >> an >> > USB to GPIB interface on ebay for about $35 or so. I have one, and it >> > works. Software is another problem entirely. If you do not have >> the source >> > code for the Hp program, you will need the manual for the 3048 with >> all >> > the needed info. I've found the GPIB to be difficult sometimes. The >> > Softmark comes with a dll that can be used with Visual Basic; I'd >> advise >> > VB6. Good luck. >> > Don >> > >> > Martyn Smith >> > > Hello All, >> > > >> > > I have a couple of HP3048A with option 301 phase noise test sets. >> > > >> > > I run the systems on HP Brio computers with a GPIB interface, >> running >> > > Windows 95. >> > > >> > > I bought the units as working systems and have no knowledge >> on the 3048A >> > > software and how it works. >> > > >> > > I want to upgrade the system using a laptop with a GPIB interface. >> > > >> > > Has anyone successfully done this? >> > > >> > > Would I need a special GPIB interface and how would I get the >> > software to >> > > talk to the GPIB interface? >> > > >> > > Any help would be much appreciated. >> > > >> > > Best Regards >> > > >> > > Martyn >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > > To unsubscribe, go to >> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > > and follow the instructions there. >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL >> > Six Mile Systems LLP >> > 17850 Six Mile Road >> > POB 134 >> > Huson, MT, 59846 >> > VOX 406-626-4304 >> > www.lightningforensics.com >> > www.sixmilesystems.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> > To unsubscribe, go to >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> > and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From Brucekareen at aol.com Mon Mar 2 19:22:28 2009 From: Brucekareen at aol.com (Brucekareen at aol.com) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 14:22:28 EST Subject: [time-nuts] Vectron Labs OCXOs Pin-out Message-ID: Steve, In my experience Vectron has not been able/willing to provide info on earlier oscillators. I acquired a 229-7730-9, 100 MHz unit and with an ohmmeter decided the pin connections seemed to match the diagram shown for the current CO-706 series. The question then was whether the supply voltage should be 12, 15 or 24 volts. The unit oscillated with 15v, but plotting the warm-up drift, I found that even after hours of operation the unit did not completely warm-up. The can was barely warm to the touch. I then tried 24v and the oscillator warmed-up in 16 minutes from a cold start -- that is the direction of frequency drift reversed in 16 minutes. The can was much warmer and reached that temperature much faster. Applying a 0 to +6 v control voltage to pin 6, I was able to shift the frequency about +/- 50 Hz. The mechanical tuning adjustment, at the top of the housing, allowed shifting the frequency over a much wider range. Initial current at 24v was 200 ma. This decreased to 105 ma after about 30 mins. Output power at 24v was +7.6 dBm. At 15v input, output power was a steep function of input voltage. Bruce Hunter **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Mar 2 19:43:54 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 20:43:54 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <20090302102204.C269CBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <49AC36FA.30400@rubidium.dyndns.org> Hal, Hal Murray skrev: >> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop >> into the connector. > > That assumes the cable gets to the outside of the pipe. I was interested in > the case where the antenna sits directly on the top of the pipe (not a > bracket off to the side). > > Some antennas are setup with the coax connector on the inside of a place with > threads where the pipe attaches. The coax has to go up the inside of the > mounting pipe. You can also use a bracket, but it's setup for the > inside-the-pipe approach. > > Here is a drawing: > http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/pdf/anttiming3000_tn888.pdf > > For a setup like that, I don't see how to get tape or anything else inside > the pipe, so the coax will end up hanging from the connector. > > So the question is how much coax can you hang from a connector? > > Clearly a foot or 3 is reasonable because you need that much for a drip loop. > How about 6 ft? 20 ft? I use such an arrangement for a 1,5 m pipe. Such a drop is not a problem. I strain-relief the cable before dropping it further along the roof and over the edge. Judging from the strain on it as it comes in to the strain-releif, just the path over the roof takes away strain, but I beleive that winds might be the biggest problem. This is still in the quick and dirty department. Not as quick and dirty as another antenna up there... but I will have to wait until spring and a dry roof before I correct that... and the real fix needs some hardware work. Hmm. Maybe I should do that while waiting for it. I have two antennas in need of stable mounting. Hmm... :) Cheers, Magnus From mccorkle at ptialaska.net Mon Mar 2 20:25:29 2009 From: mccorkle at ptialaska.net (Richard H McCorkle) Date: Mon, 2 Mar 2009 11:25:29 -0900 (AKST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: References: <68910A8C10FE4E96B6F6E6CBF14DF8F7@cyrus> Message-ID: <26374.206.174.20.67.1236025529.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net> Tom, The standard configuration for our local moutain top cell sites in Fairbanks is a VIC-100 antenna with LMR-400 feed cable to minimize RF attenuation at very low temperatures. A Symmetricom 4-port splitter feeds dual sets of redundant timing equipment. The ATT guys tell me that even at -60F they get reliable operation with very few outages due to GPS signal loss. Richard > Bill, > > Is your signal degradation sudden or gradual as correlated > with outside temperature? > > How well sealed is your outdoor connector? Maybe moisture > or thin layer of ice at the cable-connector-antenna junction? > > Monitoring antenna voltage & current could be a good clue > to the source of the problem. > > Those HP hockey puck or cone antennas are used in cell > towers all over; it seems unlikely it would be the fault in the > antenna itself. Richard -- do you see any of these on cell > sites in Fairbanks? > > /tvb > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Mar 2 20:31:04 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:31:04 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AC1F99.7010603@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <49AB943D.4000803@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903020037s7921d9a6j8ebfc963b07eca28@mail.gmail.com> <49AC1F99.7010603@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <20090302.133104.1683326597.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <49AC1F99.7010603 at rubidium.dyndns.org> Magnus Danielson writes: : Steve Rooke skrev: : > 2009/3/2 Magnus Danielson : : >> Steve Rooke skrev: : >>> Gaffa tape the cable to the supporting pipe with a small drip loop : >>> into the connector. : >> No. The glue of Gaffa tape ages. Also, it is not very nice to the cable. : > : > Buy decent gaffa tape, not the duct tape variant :) : : Even with really good stuff, it is not the long term solution you would : like. : : > Sorry, I agree with you really Magnus. I was more indicating that the : > cable does need to be supported by being attached to the mast : > structure than have all that weight on the poor connector. Gaffa is : > great for temporary work where is is tough and sticks well, and is : > easy to tear-down an installation. : : Indeed. Temporary < 1 week : : > Using black wide cable ties for the antenna cable would be an idea and : > be easy to take down too. : : Indeed. I've used both Velcro scraps, plastic cable ties and electrical tape for strain relief on my wireless connection. Velcro straps seem to work the best, but need to be replaced every 8-10 years or so. The rest is crap. Since I was reconfiguring the setup every few years, I could easily replace the worn/weathered straps when I did the reconfiguration. I don't know what I'd use for a more permanent installation. Warner From paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 2 22:29:55 2009 From: paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk (paul at greenrover.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 02 Mar 2009 22:29:55 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Time stamping In-Reply-To: <7897B12C0D2D4E418AC739FE289057F2@pc52> References: <49AC0B0E.1050000@greenrover.demon.co.uk> <7897B12C0D2D4E418AC739FE289057F2@pc52> Message-ID: <49AC5DE3.7010907@greenrover.demon.co.uk> Tom Van Baak wrote: > If you had a choice time stamp the instantaneous *phase* and skip > *frequency* altogether. This solves all your problems. Not only do > you get an unambiguous time stamp but you can also accurately > compute frequency for averaging times that are 10 or a multiple > of 10 seconds, now or anytime later from the log. > > Second choice, if you have to log frequency only, include the > averaging time from which the frequency was calculated. > > Third choice, use the end of the averaging period and let the > user infer the averaging time based on the previous entry in > the log file. Thank you Tom, two and three are simple, number one requires me to think a little. Regards Paul -- 73 de Paul GW8IZR IO73TI http://www.gw8izr.com From sar10538 at gmail.com Tue Mar 3 17:57:25 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 06:57:25 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Vectron Labs OCXOs Pin-out In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80903030957w1200d67t67ab8729bd64ebe7@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bruce, Many thanks for your help with this. It looks like some types of these use 15V and others 24V. I received a PM from Bob Raker with the following: Both are 7 dBm output & 1 ppb/day aging 225-7639: +24V supply - EFC: .3 ppm min for 0-6V, +/- 1 ppb for 15 to 35C 217-8364: +15V supply - NO EFC, +/- 30 ppb for -20 to 70C. In case anyone else was interested in this information. Thanks, Steve 2009/3/3 : > > Steve, > In my experience Vectron has not been able/willing to provide info on > earlier oscillators. ?I acquired a ?229-7730-9, 100 MHz unit and with an ohmmeter > decided the pin connections seemed ?to match the diagram shown for the current > CO-706 series. ?The question then was whether the supply ?voltage should be 12, > 15 or 24 volts. ?The unit oscillated with 15v, but plotting the warm-up > drift, I found ?that even after hours of operation the unit did not completely > warm-up. ?The can was barely warm to the ?touch. ?I then tried 24v and the > oscillator warmed-up in 16 minutes from a cold start -- that is the direction of > frequency drift reversed in 16 minutes. ?The can was much warmer and reached > that temperature much faster. ?Applying a 0 to +6 v control voltage to ?pin 6, I > was able to shift the frequency about +/- 50 Hz. ?The mechanical tuning > adjustment, at the ?top of the housing, allowed shifting the frequency over a much > wider range. ?Initial current at 24v was 200 ma. ?This decreased to 105 ma > after about 30 ?mins. ?Output power at 24v was +7.6 ?dBm. ?At 15v input, output > power was ?a steep function of input voltage. > Bruce Hunter > **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a > recession. > (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 05:30:16 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:30:16 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day Message-ID: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time sink. I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but a little inaccurate for our kind. Suppose I want to gather with friends and buy a "round" or have a sector of pie to celebrate. What's the appropriate time to honor? Since 3/14 is not based on the value of pie but on its representational decimal numbers (I have no problem with that), then it seems the right time would be (to the tenth of a second) March 14 at 1:59:26.5 . Waddya think? Does that appropriately honor the irrational spirit of the number? I'm in California and 1:59 AM might be pushing closing time, but 1:59 UTC would be 18:59 PDT and 21:59 EDT is workable too. I suggest that since it is just playing with the numbers everyone might try local time, UTC, and AM or PM to find a celebration point that works for you. If necessary, even go with 15:9:26.5 and the other options. I checked out www.piday.org tonight and found that they have a rather broken countdown timer on the page. It seems to want to tell me to begin celebrating at 00:00:00 of piday but it seems to only work for US EST which will be wrong after daylight time kicks in. I think it also works off of an inaccurately set server timer. Bad form. Obviously these math-heads are not timenuts. If they are only going to show one time for the world it really should be 00:00:00 UTC shouldn't it? And why disregard all the other fine digits of pi (hence my 1:59:26.5). I'm not a facebook kind of guy, but maybe some of us should go there and set them more precisely into this game. It also occurred to me that the actual value of pi vs. a year might give us other celebration options. I propose radian day (year duration / 2pi) or diameter day (year duration / pi). I calculate: Radian = Feb 27 at 2:11:50.285 (dang, we missed it) Diameter = Apr 26 at 4:23:40.57 (Different on leap years or slightly for leap seconds. Check my math -- I'm not a rocket scientist.) Let me know if I messed up any of this important stuff and hopefully someone will bug the piday.org people into more timenutassity. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 05:47:53 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:47:53 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <49AE1609.6070200@sonic.net> Rex wrote: > I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but > a little inaccurate for our kind. > > I forgot to mention that pi-Day aka 3/14 is also "ides of march eve". Therefore the soothsayer's classic warning becomes, "beware pi day +1." From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:57:42 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:57:42 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE1609.6070200@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <49AE1609.6070200@sonic.net> Message-ID: As a self confessed pi nut I shall pass on three pieces of trivia. First, I can recite it to 250 decimal places. Not earth shattering but a cool party trick. Second, many years ago I wrote a program to work it out to a million places, printed it out and had it professionally bound. It sits on my bookshelf to this day. Third, and most interestingly, I discovered that if you skip the first 242420 digits of pi, the following digits appear: 2424242420. I find this fascinating because being an irrational number any sequence of digits ultimately appear somewhere, but that this sequence appears at this spot is very interesting. Maybe. I have time displayed at home to the nearest millisecond so I will celebrate it at 2009-03-14 1:59:26.535 Photographing it would be tricky though... Jim 2009/3/4 Rex > Rex wrote: > > I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but > > a little inaccurate for our kind. > > > > > > I forgot to mention that pi-Day aka 3/14 is also "ides of march eve". > > Therefore the soothsayer's classic warning becomes, "beware pi day +1." > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 06:58:29 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 19:58:29 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. 2009/3/4 Rex : > I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time > sink. > > I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but > a little inaccurate for our kind. > > Suppose I want to gather with friends and buy a "round" or have a sector > of pie to celebrate. ?What's the appropriate time to honor? > > Since 3/14 is not based on the value of pie but on its representational > decimal numbers (I have no problem with that), then it seems the right > time would be (to the tenth of a second) March 14 at 1:59:26.5 . Waddya > think? Does that appropriately honor the irrational spirit of the number? > > I'm in California and 1:59 AM might be pushing closing time, but 1:59 > UTC would be 18:59 PDT and 21:59 EDT is workable too. I suggest that > since it is just playing with the numbers everyone might try local time, > UTC, and AM or PM to find a celebration point that works for you. If > necessary, even go with 15:9:26.5 and the other options. > > I checked out www.piday.org tonight and found that they have a rather > broken countdown timer on the page. It seems to want to tell me to begin > celebrating at 00:00:00 of piday but it seems to only work for US EST > which will be wrong after daylight time kicks in. I think it also works > off of an inaccurately set server timer. Bad form. Obviously these > math-heads are not timenuts. If they are only going to show one time for > the world it really should be 00:00:00 UTC shouldn't it? And why > disregard all the other fine digits of pi (hence my 1:59:26.5). I'm not > a facebook kind of guy, but maybe some of us should go there and set > them more precisely into this game. > > It also occurred to me that the actual value of pi vs. a year might give > us other celebration options. I propose radian day (year duration / 2pi) > or diameter day (year duration / pi). I calculate: > Radian = Feb 27 at 2:11:50.285 (dang, we missed it) > Diameter = Apr 26 at 4:23:40.57 > (Different on leap years or slightly for leap seconds. Check my math -- > I'm not a rocket scientist.) > > Let me know if I messed up any of this important stuff and hopefully > someone will bug the piday.org people into more timenutassity. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From tvb at LeapSecond.com Wed Mar 4 06:59:05 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 22:59:05 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: > I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but > a little inaccurate for our kind. > > Suppose I want to gather with friends and buy a "round" or have a sector > of pie to celebrate. What's the appropriate time to honor? > Since 3/14 is not based on the value of pie but on its representational > decimal numbers (I have no problem with that), then it seems the right > time would be (to the tenth of a second) March 14 at 1:59:26.5 . Waddya > think? Does that appropriately honor the irrational spirit of the number? Here one more alternative to your fine list of possibilities. If pi day is 3/14 then the "pi hour" of pi day could be 15.926535 o'clock, which is 15:55:35 (3:55:35 PM). Not precise enough? To the nanosecond the exact pi time of pi day is 3/14 15.9265358979323846264 h = 15 h + 55 m + 35 s + 292 ms + 325 us + 565 ns. /tvb From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 07:06:54 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:06:54 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903032306l1e9ca152tcafc01fc757fd2ec@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/4 Tom Van Baak : >> I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but >> a little inaccurate for our kind. >> >> Suppose I want to gather with friends and buy a "round" or have a sector >> of pie to celebrate. ?What's the appropriate time to honor? >> Since 3/14 is not based on the value of pie but on its representational >> decimal numbers (I have no problem with that), then it seems the right >> time would be (to the tenth of a second) March 14 at 1:59:26.5 . Waddya >> think? Does that appropriately honor the irrational spirit of the number? > > Here one more alternative to your fine list of possibilities. > > If pi day is 3/14 then the "pi hour" of pi day could be > 15.926535 o'clock, which is 15:55:35 (3:55:35 PM). > > Not precise enough? To the nanosecond the exact pi > time of pi day is 3/14 15.9265358979323846264 h = > 15 h + 55 m + 35 s + 292 ms + 325 us + 565 ns. Well, even for me it would be hard downing a pint during that nanosecond... 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 07:12:09 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:12:09 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <49AE1609.6070200@sonic.net> Message-ID: <49AE29C9.9070103@sonic.net> Jim Palfreyman wrote: > As a self confessed pi nut I shall pass on three pieces of trivia. > > ... > > Third, and most interestingly, I discovered that if you skip the first > 242420 digits of pi, the following digits appear: 2424242420. Not sure which boggles my mind more, that unlikely interesting factoid, or that you somehow discovered it. I think my home telephone number when I was a kid began with 242 which makes it EVEN more amazing to me. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 07:17:58 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:17:58 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE2B26.505@sonic.net> I think you will need to stay with the American style dates for traditional pi day, no? According to my calendar 31/4 doesn't exist. Steve Rooke wrote: > Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, > IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days > would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. > > 2009/3/4 Rex : > >> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time >> sink. >> >> From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 07:23:54 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:23:54 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE2B26.505@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2B26.505@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903032323g7a392ec0j1313ec8646c0bd34@mail.gmail.com> But the 3rd of January does exist and it was first named by William Jones in 1707 who was Welsh so perhaps the pi day should not be claimed by the Americans after all. 73, Steve 2009/3/4 Rex : > I think you will need to stay with the American style dates for > traditional pi day, no? > > According to my calendar 31/4 doesn't exist. > > > Steve Rooke wrote: >> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. >> >> 2009/3/4 Rex : >> >>> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time >>> sink. >>> >>> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk Wed Mar 4 07:35:03 2009 From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:35:03 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> Steve Rooke wrote: > Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, > IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days > would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. When do we get to the 14th month? ;-) Dave From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 07:39:03 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:39:03 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903032339q7a49e381ycd72b2355a754f6d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/4 Dave Ackrill : > Steve Rooke wrote: >> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. > > When do we get to the 14th month? ?;-) Don't have to, we can get to the 1st month, January. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk Wed Mar 4 07:53:04 2009 From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 07:53:04 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903032339q7a49e381ycd72b2355a754f6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> <1231b6a80903032339q7a49e381ycd72b2355a754f6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE3360.4000906@tiscali.co.uk> Steve Rooke wrote: > 2009/3/4 Dave Ackrill : >> When do we get to the 14th month? ;-) > > Don't have to, we can get to the 1st month, January. > OK, that gets us to 3/1 but where does the '4' come from? If you want to count 4am, then you have to ignore the leading zero, even allowing for not using leading zeros in the day and month that doesn't feel quite right. At least with the American version you can have 3/14 15:00 before the sequence breaks down... Or, 3/14 20:00 if you decide to round up the third decimal place. I guess you could go to 3/1/4159 but that's a bit of a wait to have a pie. Dave From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 07:57:56 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 23:57:56 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903032323g7a392ec0j1313ec8646c0bd34@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2B26.505@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032323g7a392ec0j1313ec8646c0bd34@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE3484.6040805@sonic.net> Ahh, my bad. That keeps the slash at the decimal point too. I must note that our date convention gets a bit higher resolution from just the day. 3/1 4:15:9.265 could be done. You'll have to wait until next year. Actually we can celebrate earlier in March with the same scheme. I hope we can avoid an international committee to set a new standard. In my view, any or all honoring the series are valid but I think we should require beginning from the beginning to make the options somewhat finite. And someone else already decided 3/14 was "pi day". Changing it now would be like redefining "talk like a pirate day" (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/). Steve Rooke wrote: > But the 3rd of January does exist and it was first named by William > Jones in 1707 who was Welsh so perhaps the pi day should not be > claimed by the Americans after all. > > 73, Steve > > 2009/3/4 Rex : > >> I think you will need to stay with the American style dates for >> traditional pi day, no? >> >> According to my calendar 31/4 doesn't exist. >> >> >> Steve Rooke wrote: >> >>> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >>> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >>> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. >>> >>> 2009/3/4 Rex : >>> >>> >>>> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time >>>> sink. >>>> >>>> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 4 08:45:05 2009 From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:45:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE3360.4000906@tiscali.co.uk> References: <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> <1231b6a80903032339q7a49e381ycd72b2355a754f6d@mail.gmail.com> <49AE3360.4000906@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090304.014505.-1272484136.imp@bsdimp.com> In message: <49AE3360.4000906 at tiscali.co.uk> Dave Ackrill writes: : Steve Rooke wrote: : > 2009/3/4 Dave Ackrill : : : >> When do we get to the 14th month? ;-) : > : > Don't have to, we can get to the 1st month, January. : > : : OK, that gets us to 3/1 but where does the '4' come from? If you want : to count 4am, then you have to ignore the leading zero, even allowing : for not using leading zeros in the day and month that doesn't feel quite : right. : : At least with the American version you can have 3/14 15:00 before the : sequence breaks down... Or, 3/14 20:00 if you decide to round up the : third decimal place. : : I guess you could go to 3/1/4159 but that's a bit of a wait to have a pie. Clearly people aren't seeing the on "universal" pi day of the year. That would be DOY 314... :) Warner From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Mar 4 08:49:40 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 00:49:40 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: Message from Rex of "Tue, 03 Mar 2009 21:30:16 PST." <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <20090304084941.AA86DBCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > I'm in California and 1:59 AM might be pushing closing time, but 1:59 > UTC would be 18:59 PDT and 21:59 EDT is workable too. I suggest that > since it is just playing with the numbers everyone might try local > time, UTC, and AM or PM to find a celebration point that works for > you. If necessary, even go with 15:9:26.5 and the other options. I'm picturing a gong going off at the magic time. Of course, time nuts would have to correct for the delay between the gong and the listeners ear. That probably depends on temperature and/or the barometric pressure. Then there is the filter delay in the ear... -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Wed Mar 4 08:49:44 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:49:44 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: <49AE40A8.3080803@rubidium.dyndns.org> Dave Ackrill skrev: > Steve Rooke wrote: >> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. > > When do we get to the 14th month? ;-) Any year now... :) I am actually invited to a pi-day party again this year. I just discovered that I am also invited to a birthday party and also another friend invided me... if someone only partly invites me to a party I may have pi invitations on the pi day... or is that only half invitation if counted in radians? Hmm... seems like non-invitation (opposite direction of phasors) but that would invert the pi-day to start with... Cheers, Magnus From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:30:45 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:30:45 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE3484.6040805@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2B26.505@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032323g7a392ec0j1313ec8646c0bd34@mail.gmail.com> <49AE3484.6040805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040130n36f76ac5y23ed5d61851d234b@mail.gmail.com> Well, that's my point entirely, we have already celebrated pi day here at the beginning of January but it seems you Americans are late to party, again :) Ever had your leg pulled? :) 2009/3/4 Rex : > Ahh, my bad. That keeps the slash at the decimal point too. I must note > that our date convention gets a bit higher resolution from just the day. > > 3/1 4:15:9.265 could be done. You'll have to wait until next year. > Actually we can celebrate earlier in March with the same scheme. > > I hope we can avoid an international committee to set a new standard. In > my view, any or all honoring the series are valid but I think we should > require beginning from the beginning to make the options somewhat > finite. And someone else already decided 3/14 was "pi day". Changing it > now would be like redefining "talk like a pirate day" > (http://www.talklikeapirate.com/). > > > Steve Rooke wrote: >> But the 3rd of January does exist and it was first named by William >> Jones in 1707 who was Welsh so perhaps the pi day should not be >> claimed by the Americans after all. >> >> 73, Steve >> >> 2009/3/4 Rex : >> >>> I think you will need to stay with the American style dates for >>> traditional pi day, no? >>> >>> According to my calendar 31/4 doesn't exist. >>> >>> >>> Steve Rooke wrote: >>> >>>> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >>>> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >>>> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. >>>> >>>> 2009/3/4 Rex : >>>> >>>> >>>>> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time >>>>> sink. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:33:57 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:33:57 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE40A8.3080803@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> <49AE40A8.3080803@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040133t394faf7ck6a62297b8598c204@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/4 Magnus Danielson : > Dave Ackrill skrev: >> Steve Rooke wrote: >>> Don't forget that some countries put the day in front of the month, >>> IE. it's 4th March here right now. This would mean that these days >>> would have to celebrated at different times in different countries. >> >> When do we get to the 14th month? ?;-) > > Any year now... :) > > I am actually invited to a pi-day party again this year. I just > discovered that I am also invited to a birthday party and also another > friend invided me... if someone only partly invites me to a party I may > have pi invitations on the pi day... or is that only half invitation if > counted in radians? Hmm... seems like non-invitation (opposite direction > of phasors) but that would invert the pi-day to start with... I'll buy you 0.1415926... of a pint if you come over here on that day. That should make a complete pi of you. 73, Steve > > Cheers, > Magnus > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:35:23 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:35:23 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory Message-ID: Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. I just love it. Any other comments? Jim From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Mar 4 09:43:09 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 01:43:09 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory Message-ID: A professor of what? Medieval literature Well, you never know.... -----Original Message----- From: "Jim Palfreyman" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: 3/4/09 04:38 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. I just love it. Any other comments? Jim _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 09:41:40 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:41:40 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040141k3003bf73xb209059c8e9ad81@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/4 Jim Palfreyman : > Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? > > I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. > > The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. But has it been peer reviewed... > > I just love it. > > Any other comments? > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 09:57:55 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 01:57:55 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <49AE50A3.9030708@sonic.net> Tom Van Baak wrote: >> I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but >> a little inaccurate for our kind. >> >> Suppose I want to gather with friends and buy a "round" or have a sector >> of pie to celebrate. What's the appropriate time to honor? >> Since 3/14 is not based on the value of pie but on its representational >> decimal numbers (I have no problem with that), then it seems the right >> time would be (to the tenth of a second) March 14 at 1:59:26.5 . Waddya >> think? Does that appropriately honor the irrational spirit of the number? >> > > Here one more alternative to your fine list of possibilities. > > If pi day is 3/14 then the "pi hour" of pi day could be > 15.926535 o'clock, which is 15:55:35 (3:55:35 PM). > > TVB, Signs of a serious time nut at work here. Thanks. Who'da thunk pi digits could turn into such a sweet decimal time number as 15:55:35? Your response was exceeding quick too. Was that just quick math on your part, or had you already been here for some reason? With all the options, hard to decide when best to celebrate, but I do like the aesthetics of your numbers. (The deleted nanosecond part is good too.) From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 10:07:31 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:07:31 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040133t394faf7ck6a62297b8598c204@mail.gmail.com> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> <49AE40A8.3080803@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903040133t394faf7ck6a62297b8598c204@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE52E3.8000706@sonic.net> Steve > I'll buy you 0.1415926... of a pint if you come over here on that day. > That should make a complete pi of you. > > 73, Steve > > Surely you jest. Most of us wouldn't walk to the fridge for 0.1415926 of a pint. Maybe it is a decimal point problem. 31.4 pints would probably have anyone pi eyed. 3.14 pints is somewhere in the realm of celebrating pi whilst still probably getting home. From rexa at sonic.net Wed Mar 4 10:13:51 2009 From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 02:13:51 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AE545F.1090005@sonic.net> Jim Palfreyman wrote: > Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? > > I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. > > The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. > > I just love it. > > Any other comments? > > Jim > > I don't know of it. Is this US network TV or something else? From rk at timing-consultants.com Wed Mar 4 10:17:39 2009 From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 10:17:39 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Jamming Trials.. Message-ID: Interesting article in GPS World on some jamming trials carried out in UK last year. http://tl.gpsworld.com/gpstl/Latest+News/Maritime-Jamming-Trial-Shows-GPS-Vu lnerabilities/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/584318?contextCategoryId=1385 Rob Kimberley From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 10:21:19 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 21:21:19 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To quote wikipedia: David Saltzberg, a professor of physicsand astronomy at the University of California, Los Angeles, checks scripts and provides dialogue, math equations and diagrams used as props. After watching series 1 I've not been able to fault the physics - in fact some of it I have to admit is above my head. I just think folks on this list would *really* enjoy it. Sheldon would be welcome on time-nuts. 2009/3/4 Lux, James P > A professor of what? Medieval literature > Well, you never know.... > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Jim Palfreyman" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" < > time-nuts at febo.com> > Sent: 3/4/09 04:38 > Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory > > > Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? > > I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. > > The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. > > I just love it. > > Any other comments? > > Jim > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jim77742 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 10:22:00 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 21:22:00 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory In-Reply-To: <49AE545F.1090005@sonic.net> References: <49AE545F.1090005@sonic.net> Message-ID: Yep US tv sitcom on CBS. But I looked that up since I'm in Australia. 2009/3/4 Rex > Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? > > > > I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. > > > > The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. > > > > I just love it. > > > > Any other comments? > > > > Jim > > > > > > I don't know of it. > > Is this US network TV or something else? > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 11:40:18 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:40:18 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE52E3.8000706@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <1231b6a80903032258o79566cear749e728216f861be@mail.gmail.com> <49AE2F27.1000802@tiscali.co.uk> <49AE40A8.3080803@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903040133t394faf7ck6a62297b8598c204@mail.gmail.com> <49AE52E3.8000706@sonic.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040340g306bbdd8g9fcc49ce66bdf9f2@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/4 Rex : > Steve >> I'll buy you 0.1415926... of a pint if you come over here on that day. >> That should make a complete pi of you. >> >> 73, Steve >> >> > Surely you jest. Most of us wouldn't walk to the fridge for 0.1415926 of > a pint. Maybe it is a decimal point problem. 31.4 pints would probably > have anyone pi eyed. 3.14 pints is somewhere in the realm of celebrating > pi whilst still probably getting home. But Magnus already has 3 invites to pi day so just needed the balance :) OK, call me a cheapskate but I'd really buy him a few more than that if he came over here. Heck, I'd buy you all a drink if your ever down this way. Brits need not apply, the beer down here is really terrible guys, although, by the time you have drunk 31.4159... cans, you really don't care what it tastes like :) Oh, and they serve it up in litres down here too and at -something deg C. Good job too, you really don't want to taste it. Rule #1, don't drink warm NZ beer :) 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From swingbyte at exemail.com.au Wed Mar 4 11:41:53 2009 From: swingbyte at exemail.com.au (swingbyte) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:41:53 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AE6901.1090206@exemail.com.au> Jim Palfreyman wrote: > To quote wikipedia: > > David Saltzberg, a professor of > physicsand > astronomy at the University of > California, Los > Angeles, > checks scripts and provides dialogue, math equations and diagrams used as > props. > > After watching series 1 I've not been able to fault the physics - in fact > some of it I have to admit is above my head. > > I just think folks on this list would *really* enjoy it. > > Sheldon would be welcome on time-nuts. > > 2009/3/4 Lux, James P > > >> A professor of what? Medieval literature >> Well, you never know.... >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: "Jim Palfreyman" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" < >> time-nuts at febo.com> >> Sent: 3/4/09 04:38 >> Subject: [time-nuts] Big bang theory >> >> >> Has anyone here watched Big Bang Theory? >> >> I think it's one of the cleverest sitcoms ever to come out of the US. >> >> The science in it is accurate - verified by a university professor. >> >> I just love it. >> >> Any other comments? >> >> Jim >> ___________ Well yes you're not alone, its very popular at our house. Its great cos my wife loves it too even though she didn't study physics! I hope they continue it. I have a few of those characters where I work - always make is interesting! Though its a bit scary when yet another one comes in with their kid diagnosed with Aspergers. Tim From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 11:52:30 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:52:30 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this being done by someone like us. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From martinrh45 at googlemail.com Wed Mar 4 12:11:45 2009 From: martinrh45 at googlemail.com (Martin Richmond-Hardy) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:11:45 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> Steve,See http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/exchange.htm and http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/clock36.htmMight give you a few construction ideas. "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood." H.Crun. 73 Martin G8BHC 2009/3/4 Steve Rooke > Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? > What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule > is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by > the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no > physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would > have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you > can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo > clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this > being done by someone like us. > > 73, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Martin Richmond-Hardy From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Mar 4 12:41:21 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 07:41:21 EST Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Message-ID: In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:12:26 GMT Standard Time, martinrh45 at googlemail.com writes: "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you can't get the wood." H.Crun. ----------------- One could always strip down an old Bannister:-) From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 12:46:02 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:46:02 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Martin Richmond-Hardy : > Steve,See http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/exchange.htm and > http://www.britishtelephones.com/clocks/clock36.htmMight give you a few > construction ideas. Thanks. Now that would make an impressive item in the house. I do remember the exchange slave clocks in the exchanges when I first worked for BT way back at the beginning of the 70's. There was probably one of the master units somewhere safe in the exchanges but I can't remember seeing them. As for accuracy, it's hardly time-nuts standard at "Clock No, 36 to keep G.M.T. to an accuracy of 8 seconds variation per week" > "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you > can't get the wood." H.Crun. And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) > 73 Martin G8BHC > > 2009/3/4 Steve Rooke > >> Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? >> What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule >> is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by >> the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no >> physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would >> have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you >> can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo >> clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this >> being done by someone like us. >> >> 73, >> Steve >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW >> Omnium finis imminet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > > -- > Martin Richmond-Hardy > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 12:49:03 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 01:49:03 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040449p6e6a0fa8jb9d10b2a92239d70@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 : > In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:12:26 GMT Standard Time, > martinrh45 at googlemail.com writes: > > "Ah, ?they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you > can't ?get the wood." H.Crun. > ----------------- > > > One could always strip down an old ?Bannister:-) I read that wrong the fist time and could not for the life of me see how this related to a naked ancient barrister :) 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From jra at febo.com Wed Mar 4 13:04:08 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 08:04:08 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> Steve Rooke wrote: >> "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you >> can't get the wood." H.Crun. > > And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 13:44:24 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 02:44:24 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040544q2c90cb05t52f60dfe8364b602@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 John Ackermann N8UR : > Steve Rooke wrote: > >>> "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you know, you >>> can't get the wood." H.Crun. >> >> And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) > > And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the war? Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Mar 4 13:47:58 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 08:47:58 EST Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Message-ID: In a message dated 04/03/2009 12:49:38 GMT Standard Time, sar10538 at gmail.com writes: I read that wrong the fist time and could not for the life of me see how this related to a naked ancient barrister :) LOL Not the one living in a fountain in Trafalgar Square by any chance? From rk at timing-consultants.com Wed Mar 4 13:52:36 2009 From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:52:36 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com><1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> Message-ID: <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> John Ackermann N8UR wrote: > Steve Rooke wrote: > >>> "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you >>> know, you can't get the wood." H.Crun. >> >> And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) > > And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the > war? > I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop if you want... Rob From nospam at oceanfree.net Wed Mar 4 13:54:34 2009 From: nospam at oceanfree.net (Eamon Skelton) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 13:54:34 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> Message-ID: <49AE881A.9070101@oceanfree.net> Rex wrote: > I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time > sink. > > I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but > a little inaccurate for our kind. We won't have it until the 31st of April on this side of the pond. -- Linux 2.6.26 From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 4 13:56:24 2009 From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:56:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] Wavetek 3010 Manual Message-ID: <183127.22921.qm@web27106.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hi, Anyone got a PDF of the manual for this synthized 1GHz generator? I picked on up but it's about 5 MHz off at 500MHZ and unlocked. Regards, Robert G8RPI. From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:01:26 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:01:26 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040601h5a37b587i39c88ee5fbf52c8a@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Rob Kimberley : > I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop if > you want... Ah, that does sound good but I don't think you'll be able to sneak it past MAF sadly. They don't take too highly to foodstuffs entering the country via unlicensed means it seems. All the stuff over here is saturated in water and really doesn't taste like the bacon over there. What with the beer and the bacon, I wonder why I came here sometimes :) My apologies to all for this thread going completely off-topic. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Wed Mar 4 14:06:02 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:06:02 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day In-Reply-To: <49AE881A.9070101@oceanfree.net> References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <49AE881A.9070101@oceanfree.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903040606i637d87c8n2dd1fc4cfc8b085b@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Eamon Skelton : > Rex wrote: >> I don't recall this discussion here before, but it should be a good time >> sink. >> >> I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but >> a little inaccurate for our kind. > > We won't have it until the 31st of April on this side of the pond. Doesn't sound like you'll be celebrating it anytime soon then but who knows! 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From GandalfG8 at aol.com Wed Mar 4 14:11:30 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 09:11:30 EST Subject: [time-nuts] Wavetek 3010 Manual Message-ID: In a message dated 04/03/2009 13:56:45 GMT Standard Time, robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk writes: Hi, Anyone got a PDF of the manual for this synthized 1GHz generator? I picked on up but it's about 5 MHz off at 500MHZ and unlocked. Regards, Robert G8RPI. ------------- Hi Robert I've got a copy, it's approx 7MB. Let me know if your yahoo address will accept that size attachment, or give me another address that will, and I'll email it to you. regards Nigel GM8PZR From ralph at ralphsmith.org Wed Mar 4 16:25:53 2009 From: ralph at ralphsmith.org (Ralph Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:25:53 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I have two Western Union/Self-Winding Clock Company Clocks. Some background info: (Brooke Clarke's site, a member of this list). I synchronize mine using my NTP server built from a Soekris NET4501, driven by a Trimble Thunderbolt. Not the same as retrofitting a clock not specifically meant for the purpose, but I like it. Ralph On Mar 4, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Steve Rooke wrote: > Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? > What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule > is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by > the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no > physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would > have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you > can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo > clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this > being done by someone like us. > > 73, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr Wed Mar 4 17:10:51 2009 From: Jean-Louis.Oneto at obs-azur.fr (Jean-Louis Oneto) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 17:10:51 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] pi Day References: <49AE11E8.9050805@sonic.net> <49AE1609.6070200@sonic.net> Message-ID: <3CC154FFDBA9421AB8B3B816277ED615@free.fr> I also suppose that the final announcement should appear on "Circular"-T? Jean-Louis Oneto ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 5:47 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] pi Day > Rex wrote: >> I was reminded tonight that "pi Day" is coming on 3/14. That's fine, but >> a little inaccurate for our kind. >> >> > > I forgot to mention that pi-Day aka 3/14 is also "ides of march eve". > > Therefore the soothsayer's classic warning becomes, "beware pi day +1." > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Wed Mar 4 17:32:47 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 09:32:47 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: Message from Steve Rooke of "Thu, 05 Mar 2009 00:52:30 +1300." <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090304173248.BFB03BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? The Amateur Scientist, Scientific American, Sep 1974, had an article on doing that to a pendulum clock. They put a small magnet on the pendulum. It was out on a stick so it could poke through a coil without the pendulum or arm getting in the way. I asked about it on this list several years ago. You might check the archives. Somebody scanned in the article. I have 2 pdfs. One is 17 MB. The other is 300K but needs a newer pdf reader. One or the other may be online someplace. Google just found this: http://www.dealsdirect.com.au/p/wooden-wall-clock-pendulum-quartz-movement/ It's a pseudo old clock, but that probably solves all the mechanical issues. PS: You get some weird stuff if you google for >pendulum quartz<. -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk Wed Mar 4 18:20:52 2009 From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:20:52 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Jamming Trials.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49AEC684.3080109@tiscali.co.uk> Rob Kimberley wrote: > Interesting article in GPS World on some jamming trials carried out in UK > last year. > > http://tl.gpsworld.com/gpstl/Latest+News/Maritime-Jamming-Trial-Shows-GPS-Vu > lnerabilities/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/584318?contextCategoryId=1385 To help people with wrap round problems in their email clients, here is a TinyURL version of that URl... http://tinyurl.com/bdpujw Dave From gwinn at Raytheon.com Wed Mar 4 18:30:26 2009 From: gwinn at Raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 13:30:26 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Jamming Trials.. In-Reply-To: <49AEC684.3080109@tiscali.co.uk> Message-ID: The simpler way to prevent mangling of URLs is to put corner brackets < ... > around the URL. This lets the email reader know where the URL starts and ends. So, for instance: < http://tl.gpsworld.com/gpstl/Latest+News/Maritime-Jamming-Trial-Shows-GPS-Vulnerabilities/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/584318?contextCategoryId=1385 > Joe time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 03/04/2009 01:20:52 PM: > Rob Kimberley wrote: > > Interesting article in GPS World on some jamming trials > carried out in UK > > last year. > > > > http://tl.gpsworld.com/gpstl/Latest+News/Maritime-Jamming- > Trial-Shows-GPS-Vu > > lnerabilities/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/584318? > contextCategoryId=1385 > > To help people with wrap round problems in their email clients, here is > a TinyURL version of that URl... > > http://tinyurl.com/bdpujw > > Dave > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From djl at montana.com Wed Mar 4 19:21:37 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 12:21:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com><1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> Message-ID: <1524.216.14.243.135.1236194497.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> I've driven "quartz movement" clocks with one pps signals, bypassing the "quartz" works. To synchronize pendula (?) is relatively simple, but best done using a mechanical/magnetic impulse phase locked loop, considering the pendulum as a VCO. BTW, I recommend Stephenson's new effort, "Anathem" loosely based on the clock of the Long Now Foundation, q.v. Don Latham Rob Kimberley > John Ackermann N8UR wrote: >> Steve Rooke wrote: >> >>>> "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you >>>> know, you can't get the wood." H.Crun. >>> >>> And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) >> >> And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get before the >> war? >> > > I can get you some really nice dry cured bacon from Chatsworth Farm Shop > if > you want... > > Rob > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com Wed Mar 4 19:33:28 2009 From: ronald.p.smith at btinternet.com (Ron Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 19:33:28 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901c99d00$1947da70$4201a8c0@G3SVW> Hi Steve, Have you thought about locking the "cuckoo" call to GPS? I don't know how that call is generated, but I guess it wouldn't be too difficult to control electronically. Ron G3SVW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Rooke" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:52 AM Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? > What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule > is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by > the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no > physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would > have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you > can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo > clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this > being done by someone like us. > > 73, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Wed Mar 4 19:33:32 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:33:32 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040544q2c90cb05t52f60dfe8364b602@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> <1231b6a80903040544q2c90cb05t52f60dfe8364b602@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 5:44 AM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > > 2009/3/5 John Ackermann N8UR : > > Steve Rooke wrote: > > > >>> "Ah, they don't make them like this any more. It's the wood, you > >>> know, you can't get the wood." H.Crun. > >> > >> And the brass, you can't get brass like that anymore :) > > > > And whatever happened to that good bacon we used to get > before the war? > > Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted > them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. > Isn't that why they built that wall? Just one of the many things that the Romans have done for us (after viticulture, sanitation, etc.) From holrum at hotmail.com Wed Mar 4 20:54:30 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:54:30 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I once GPS disciplined a friends grandfather clock from the mid 1700's. Used an opto interrupter and solenoid to nudge the pendulum. If I remember right I had to generate 24 pulses per minute. It worked surprisingly well. The next mod was to make it self winding, but she moved away before that happened. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 From bill at iaxs.net Wed Mar 4 21:12:03 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:12:03 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> Group, Looks like this subject has ended, so I'll summarize: Bruce Griffiths said the plastic has 12X the expansion coefficient of copper, so cold alone shouldn't have pulled the center pin. Now I wonder if the cold contraction pushed the insulation along the core wire and then pulled the pin when it warmed up. He also mentioned that some ROHS connections fail due to thermal cycling, but I used antique solder and wrench-clamp connectors. Tom Van Baak asked if the signal degraded or was cut off. I don't look at it all the time, so my first clue was the Holdover light on the receiver. GPScon gave me the holdover duration, accurate to 999 hours, then 1000+. Stan, W1LE, suggested a captive center pin connector, which I will try in April or May when the snow goes away. Thanks. Several people said 20 feet unsupported was too long, but I'm not gonna fill a 10 foot, 6 inch diameter pipe with foam. I'll get some light chain and individually tie the cables to the chain, then support the chain above the point where the cables turn into the 2 foot arms. Metric conversions are left as an exercise for the reader, as they are for me. Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits that mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored students building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on the field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, which we got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show closes. Where did Gaffa tape come from? Thanks to all who contributed. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: Stan W1LE Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:56 PM a couple of suggestions: 1. Use a captive center pin on the N male connector. for example, Kings Electronics Inc. N male, model # KN-59-176 for RG-214 coaxial cable, center pin is solder type and captive, will not move axially. Wrench clamp on the shield. Kings cage = 91836 mil spec: M39012/01-0005 a few bucks each 2. consider adding a foam in place insulation, inside the plastic pipe to support the coaxial cable. drill a 1/8" hole every few feet and squirt in the aerosol foam till it comes out of the hole. Go for the minimally expanding insulating foam you will find in Home Depot or Lowes. Stan, W1LE Fn41sr Cape Cod From cfharris at erols.com Wed Mar 4 21:18:15 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:18:15 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> Message-ID: <49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> Bill Hawkins wrote: ... > Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits that > mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored students > building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on the > field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, which we > got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is > intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show closes. > > Where did Gaffa tape come from? Probably from the same place as Duck tape. Human ears trying to make sense out of what they hear. -Chuck Harris From bill at iaxs.net Wed Mar 4 21:33:55 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 15:33:55 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1524.216.14.243.135.1236194497.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com><8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com><1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com><49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> <7861E44C803B4E76AAD1FAA255E3ECC9@Robin> <1524.216.14.243.135.1236194497.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Message-ID: <9FBF4F7F0D9548C8BF57046967281E55@cyrus> Don and group, I was about to write about the "pendulum as a VCO" concept. I've seen articles in the NAWCC Horological Journal that describe ways to do it, but have been hesitant to do anything to my grandfather's Seth Thomas wall clock. It gets wound once a week, and generally doesn't need setting. One thing about an old clock, though. The minute hand can be off by a minute on either side of vertical due to gravity and wear of the gears. "Anathem" surprises on many levels, especially the 'alien' encounter. Excellent "elsewhere" read, far from the daily news. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: Don Latham Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:22 PM I've driven "quartz movement" clocks with one pps signals, bypassing the "quartz" works. To synchronize pendula (?) is relatively simple, but best done using a mechanical/magnetic impulse phase locked loop, considering the pendulum as a VCO. BTW, I recommend Stephenson's new effort, "Anathem" loosely based on the clock of the Long Now Foundation, q.v. Don Latham -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From stanw1le at verizon.net Wed Mar 4 21:35:57 2009 From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:35:57 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> <49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> Message-ID: <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> Actually it is "duct" tape. Used to air seal the metal joints in a metal duct work system for heat and AC. New building codes require a mastic paint be applied over all metal joints in the duct work system. I guess it is an energy conservation issue, so the processed air does not leak into unintended spaces. Stan,W1LE Chuck Harris wrote: > Bill Hawkins wrote: > ... > >> Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits that >> mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored students >> building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on the >> field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, which we >> got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is >> intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show closes. >> >> Where did Gaffa tape come from? >> > > Probably from the same place as Duck tape. > > Human ears trying to make sense out of what they hear. > > -Chuck Harris > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From cfharris at erols.com Wed Mar 4 22:11:16 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 17:11:16 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> <49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49AEFC84.6050702@erols.com> I know. Did you read my post? -Chuck Harris Stan W1LE wrote: > Actually it is "duct" tape. > > Used to air seal the metal joints in a metal duct work system for heat > and AC. > > New building codes require a mastic paint be applied over all metal > joints in the duct work system. > I guess it is an energy conservation issue, so the processed air does > not leak into unintended spaces. > > Stan,W1LE > > > Chuck Harris wrote: >> Bill Hawkins wrote: >> ... >> >>> Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits that >>> mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored students >>> building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on the >>> field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, which we >>> got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is >>> intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show closes. >>> >>> Where did Gaffa tape come from? >>> >> Probably from the same place as Duck tape. >> >> Human ears trying to make sense out of what they hear. >> >> -Chuck Harris >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Wed Mar 4 22:34:33 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:34:33 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 2009 16:35:57 EST." <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> Message-ID: <52080.1236206073@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <49AEF43D.3010103 at verizon.net>, Stan W1LE writes: >Actually it is "duct" tape. No it is not. Duct tape is made to stay stuck and tight on ventilation ducts in a wide range of temperatures and humidities, it is not meant to come off again, ever, and if you try, it will leave a sticky band of adhesive on the substrate. Secondary characteristics is that it is nonedible for any insect or rodent and I belive: non-flammable. Gaffer's tape is meant to stay in comparatively benign environmentals, but only until you want it to come off again, at which time a gentle but firm pull at the right angle will make it peel off, taking with it all the adhesive material. Gaffers tape will generally not work near or below the freezing point, som variants are tolerant of high temperatures (for spot-lights etc). If you hold down cables with duct tape during a production in a building which is a national heritage site, you will never be allowed through the door again. If you use gaffer's tape, they will have no reason for complaint. And yes, it's much more expensive. Poul-Henning -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Wed Mar 4 22:37:14 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Wed, 04 Mar 2009 22:37:14 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 04 Mar 2009 15:12:03 CST." <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> Message-ID: <52109.1236206234@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5 at cyrus>, "Bill Hawkins" writes: >Several people said 20 feet unsupported was too long, but I'm not gonna >fill a 10 foot, 6 inch diameter pipe with foam. I'll get some light >chain [...] Over here you can buy a clothes-line which is actually a nylon covered un-spun steel-wire. I use that for such cableruns because it is easy to string it up and it stays taught all year. Tie the coax to it with nylon strips every feet. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From Mike at scheliga.com Wed Mar 4 22:38:23 2009 From: Mike at scheliga.com (Michael Scheliga) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 14:38:23 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus><49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> Message-ID: "Gaffa tape" is Gaffer's tape. From the production electricians in film and television studios. It's usually fabric and flat colors to blend in with sets and floors. It is usually stronger than duct tape, tears easier, and costs more. The good stuff also leaves less residue behind when removed, if not left on too long. Mike > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Stan W1LE > Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:36 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > > Actually it is "duct" tape. > > Used to air seal the metal joints in a metal duct work system for heat > and AC. > > New building codes require a mastic paint be applied over all metal > joints in the duct work system. > I guess it is an energy conservation issue, so the processed air does > not leak into unintended spaces. > > Stan,W1LE > > > Chuck Harris wrote: > > Bill Hawkins wrote: > > ... > > > >> Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits > that > >> mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored > students > >> building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on the > >> field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, > which we > >> got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is > >> intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show > closes. > >> > >> Where did Gaffa tape come from? > >> > > > > Probably from the same place as Duck tape. > > > > Human ears trying to make sense out of what they hear. > > > > -Chuck Harris > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- > bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 00:15:19 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 13:15:19 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <8a3357d10903040411m49576dfq94c617455b60a451@mail.gmail.com> <1231b6a80903040446p6ac58eb2ycc6a720d91f8ca3a@mail.gmail.com> <49AE7C48.40700@febo.com> <1231b6a80903040544q2c90cb05t52f60dfe8364b602@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903041615p101e4b25s2bb6e6e2cb685b34@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Lux, James P : >> Those Danes must be keeping it to themselves. I never trusted >> them since they started raping and pillaging all over the place. >> > > Isn't that why they built that wall? Just one of the many things that the Romans have done for us (after viticulture, sanitation, etc.) That was to keep the Scots out. Even the Romans drew the line at trying to conquer them. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From namichie at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 03:05:00 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 14:05:00 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus><49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8E6AECC9-D569-4A1E-96C7-94808E73398C@gmail.com> Another, maybe the original tape, was called 100 Miles per Hour Tape and was sold years after fabric covered aircraft wings went out of style as it was so universally useful. As the name suggests it was rated for repair of aircraft fabric to be used up to speeds of 100 MPH. cheers, Neville Michie PS. I have a type 36 post office clock running and it has a synchronising relay that forces the phase of the 30 second output pulses to the nearest 2 seconds, by rotating the count wheel which has a cardioid cam. At a fixed time every day this relay was energised from the central site to correct any phase creep in the clocks in the regional post offices. I have occasionally thought of linking it to a GPS time source. cheers, NM On 05/03/2009, at 9:38 AM, Michael Scheliga wrote: > "Gaffa tape" is Gaffer's tape. From the production electricians in > film > and television studios. It's usually fabric and flat colors to > blend in > with sets and floors. It is usually stronger than duct tape, tears > easier, and costs more. The good stuff also leaves less residue > behind > when removed, if not left on too long. > > Mike > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] > On >> Behalf Of Stan W1LE >> Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 1:36 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem >> >> Actually it is "duct" tape. >> >> Used to air seal the metal joints in a metal duct work system for >> heat >> and AC. >> >> New building codes require a mastic paint be applied over all metal >> joints in the duct work system. >> I guess it is an energy conservation issue, so the processed air does >> not leak into unintended spaces. >> >> Stan,W1LE >> >> >> Chuck Harris wrote: >>> Bill Hawkins wrote: >>> ... >>> >>>> Speaking of conversions, I grew up (since 1938) with movie credits >> that >>>> mentioned the Gaffer (head electrician). Last year I mentored >> students >>>> building a robot for a FIRST Robotics competition. The carpet on > the >>>> field would be marked with red, black, and white gaffer's tape, >> which we >>>> got in 2 inch width from a theater supply place. Gaffer's tape is >>>> intended to hold down wires running across a set until the show >> closes. >>>> >>>> Where did Gaffa tape come from? >>>> >>> >>> Probably from the same place as Duck tape. >>> >>> Human ears trying to make sense out of what they hear. >>> >>> -Chuck Harris >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- >> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi- >> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 03:54:31 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 16:54:31 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem In-Reply-To: <8E6AECC9-D569-4A1E-96C7-94808E73398C@gmail.com> References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus> <49AEF017.4020004@erols.com> <49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> <8E6AECC9-D569-4A1E-96C7-94808E73398C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903041954r285472ces35793e23fde1c8ad@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Neville Michie : > PS. I have a type 36 post office clock running and it has a > synchronising relay that forces the phase > of the 30 second output pulses to the nearest 2 seconds, by rotating > the count wheel which has a cardioid cam. > At a fixed time every day this relay was energised from the central > site to correct any phase creep in the > clocks in the regional post offices. I have occasionally thought of > linking it to a GPS time source. That's an interesting idea and I wonder if it's easier to correct the clock at intervals than closely synchronise it. Food for thought, thanks. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From wd6cmu at earthlink.net Thu Mar 5 04:11:43 2009 From: wd6cmu at earthlink.net (Eric Williams) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 20:11:43 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Bryan Mumford (bmumford.com) did a lot of work developing pendulum clocks that were driven by a Fedchenko electromagnetic drive. The drive circuit would both put energy into the pendulum and use the pulse to drive an electric clock face to display the time. He never got to the point of disciplining the clock, but he did note that you could make fine adjustments in the period by varying the drive current which changed the amplitude of the pendulum swing and changed the period. (Larger swings ran slower, as I recall.) You could theoretically discipline such a clock by varying the current to lock the pendulum to a GPS source. It wouldn't really be mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape mechanism, the two would fight each other. On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Steve Rooke wrote: > Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? > What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule > is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by > the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no > physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would > have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you > can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo > clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this > being done by someone like us. > > 73, > Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From namichie at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 05:49:39 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 16:49:39 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <3AC3177B-82DB-41CF-ACAC-03BF16B1541D@gmail.com> In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great milestones. see http://www.electric-clocks.nl/clocks/en/page10.htm This clock used a pendulum running free to synchronise another pendulum that did all the housekeeping work. The work pendulum was adjusted to be a little slow and a thin leaf spring was picked up by a relay if the phase was too slow and added a slight gaining rate until the phase was restored. A little like switching a tiny capacitor in and out connected to an TCXO to keep it disciplined. These clock kept very good time. Cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 3:11 PM, Eric Williams wrote: > Bryan Mumford (bmumford.com) did a lot of work developing pendulum > clocks > that were driven by a Fedchenko electromagnetic drive. The drive > circuit > would both put energy into the pendulum and use the pulse to drive an > electric clock face to display the time. He never got to the point of > disciplining the clock, but he did note that you could make fine > adjustments > in the period by varying the drive current which changed the > amplitude of > the pendulum swing and changed the period. (Larger swings ran > slower, as I > recall.) You could theoretically discipline such a clock by > varying the > current to lock the pendulum to a GPS source. It wouldn't really be > mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a > mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with > the escape > mechanism, the two would fight each other. > > On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 3:52 AM, Steve Rooke > wrote: > >> Has anyone looked at locking an old mechanical clock to precise time? >> What I'm thinking of is something like an old cuckoo clock. The rule >> is that the clock remains basically standard and is only steered by >> the external source, say, by a magnetic pulse to the pendulum, IE. no >> physical connection. Obviously the correct period of the pulse would >> have to fit the timing of the pendulum. OK, it seems pointless as you >> can't read time with any real accuracy on something like a cuckoo >> clock but I'm sure there is the likelihood of something like this >> being done by someone like us. >> >> 73, >> Steve >> -- >> Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW >> Omnium finis imminet >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Mar 5 06:04:10 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:04:10 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <06CE10F24CD143F58DE203AC8B2F8EF1@pc52> > mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a > mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the escape > mechanism, the two would fight each other. Eric, Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. /tvb From tvb at LeapSecond.com Thu Mar 5 06:05:19 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Wed, 4 Mar 2009 22:05:19 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <3AC3177B-82DB-41CF-ACAC-03BF16B1541D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great > milestones. ... > These clock kept very good time. > Cheers, Neville Michie Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf /tvb From jim77742 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 06:22:03 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:22:03 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <06CE10F24CD143F58DE203AC8B2F8EF1@pc52> References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <06CE10F24CD143F58DE203AC8B2F8EF1@pc52> Message-ID: So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my M&K subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long Reifler pendulum) it should keep perfect time. Beauty! 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > > mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a > > mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the > escape > > mechanism, the two would fight each other. > > Eric, > > Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, > have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one > idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid > or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the > pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. > > /tvb > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From djl at montana.com Thu Mar 5 07:04:36 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:04:36 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com><06CE10F24CD143F58DE203AC8B2F8EF1@pc52> Message-ID: <004001c99d60$a54abe10$0700a8c0@OFFICE2> Actually, simply use a pendulum in a vacuum chamber, and pulse a LED shining toward the pendulum in the plane of rotation. Eventually, radiation pressure will synchronize it... Don ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Palfreyman" To: "Tom Van Baak" ; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:22 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that into my > M&K > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long > Reifler > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > Beauty! > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > >> > mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd discipline a >> > mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with the >> escape >> > mechanism, the two would fight each other. >> >> Eric, >> >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 07:17:14 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:17:14 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <3AC3177B-82DB-41CF-ACAC-03BF16B1541D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903042317u7c80f7fh4850b6437af611ca@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak : >> In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great >> milestones. > ... >> These clock kept very good time. >> Cheers, Neville Michie > > Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. > > Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ > > For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: > http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf This is great stuff. Thanks Tom. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From namichie at gmail.com Thu Mar 5 08:35:34 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:35:34 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <06CE10F24CD143F58DE203AC8B2F8EF1@pc52> Message-ID: <700EE3E5-A812-4268-8250-BFC21F5E29C1@gmail.com> Hi Jim, a "seconds Pendulum" has frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that > into my M&K > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long > Reifler > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > Beauty! > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > >>> mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd >>> discipline a >>> mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with >>> the >> escape >>> mechanism, the two would fight each other. >> >> Eric, >> >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From tractorb at ihug.co.nz Thu Mar 5 10:48:14 2009 From: tractorb at ihug.co.nz (Dave Brown) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:48:14 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem References: <20090302011504.125B0BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><49AB3CC1.5040306@verizon.net> <48E1C1775B054C2E9D30E7782A40A7B5@cyrus><49AEF017.4020004@erols.com><49AEF43D.3010103@verizon.net> <8E6AECC9-D569-4A1E-96C7-94808E73398C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06a701c99d7f$e37828c0$7900a8c0@athlon1200> For all those out there who don't have your own BPO 36 master clock, here is a youtube video that shows the detail of the Hipp toggle in action. The Hipp is the key to these clocks excellent time keeping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmx5iy4qwhI Yes I know, the sound track IS horrible! But you can hear most of the ticks... Not my video, I hasten to add.. For more info on the Hipp toggle, just google and all will be revealed. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neville Michie" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > Another, maybe the original tape, was called 100 Miles per Hour Tape > and was sold years after fabric > covered aircraft wings went out of style as it was so universally > useful. > As the name suggests it was rated for repair of aircraft fabric to > be > used up to speeds of 100 MPH. > cheers, Neville Michie > > PS. I have a type 36 post office clock running and it has a > synchronising relay that forces the phase > of the 30 second output pulses to the nearest 2 seconds, by rotating > the count wheel which has a cardioid cam. > At a fixed time every day this relay was energised from the central > site to correct any phase creep in the > clocks in the regional post offices. I have occasionally thought of > linking it to a GPS time source. > cheers, NM From arie.schellaars at yahoo.com Thu Mar 5 11:37:21 2009 From: arie.schellaars at yahoo.com (arie schellaars) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:37:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks Message-ID: <816822.45749.qm@web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Just to put in my twopenny worth; In the current (March) issue of OZ electronics magazine "Silicon Chip" is a project to lock a cheap battery operated clock to a GPS derived signal.. Uses a Jupitor type GPS head unit to receive the Sat"s signals. Cheers Arie Schellaars??? VK3DBF --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Neville Michie wrote: From: Neville Michie Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Received: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 8:35 AM Hi Jim, a "seconds Pendulum" has? frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer? would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would? be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal? to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the? American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his? basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I? wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them.? (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that? > into my M&K > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long? > Reifler > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > Beauty! > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > >>> mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd? >>> discipline a >>> mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with? >>> the >> escape >>> mechanism, the two would fight each other. >> >> Eric, >> >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox From pvince at theiet.org Thu Mar 5 12:40:10 2009 From: pvince at theiet.org (Peter Vince) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 12:40:10 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] "Silicon Chip" web site (was Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks) Message-ID: <1306.1236256810@uk2.net> The website for the Silicon Chip magazine is: http://www.siliconchip.com.au/ but they don't have this article online yet. Peter On Thu Mar 5 11:37 , arie schellaars sent: >Just to put in my twopenny worth; >In the current (March) issue of OZ electronics magazine "Silicon Chip" >is a project to lock a cheap battery operated clock to a GPS derived signal.. >Uses a Jupitor type GPS head unit to receive the Sat"s signals. >Cheers >Arie Schellaars VK3DBF > From brooke at pacific.net Thu Mar 5 17:55:42 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 09:55:42 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Pendulum Clock Synchronization Message-ID: <49B0121E.1040100@pacific.net> Hi: The Western Union clocks made by the Self Winding Clock Co. have a provision for hourly synchronization of the hour, minute and second hands using a pulse. Since there were many thousands of these in service they are constantly on eBay. See: http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Sync http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC2.shtml#SC When they were used in government buildings, banks, jewelry stores, etc. the line voltage was 120 VDC and the current was adjusted to 250 ma with a variable resistor. Note that the time constant of an LR circuit is proportional to L/R so raising the voltage allows adding resistance speeding up the circuit. This is mandatory in teletype circuits and makes a big improvement in the operation of the synchronizing circuit for a clock or operation of a slave clock. Since it's only one pulse per hour I've started looking into using a free power supply that runs on a single AA cell. The problem with these is that the voltage is about 300 VDC, but that may be OK if current limited to 250 ma (abut 1200 Ohms). See: http://www.prc68.com/I/LED.shtml#SUCFBO -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Thu Mar 5 19:56:13 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:56:13 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903040352kab23fbdsd6c82896429af8d0@mail.gmail.com> <3AC3177B-82DB-41CF-ACAC-03BF16B1541D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B02E5D.6040303@rubidium.dyndns.org> Tom Van Baak skrev: >> In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great >> milestones. > ... >> These clock kept very good time. >> Cheers, Neville Michie > > Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. > > Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ The traditional masterclock for those devices which is found on http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/earth/ is a bit more complicated. The referenced frequency (of period 86400 s) is not the actual frequency but rather the SSB beat frequency of the free space rotation frequency and the rotation speed around the heat radiator some 8 ligth minutes away. The rotation period is about 86,164090 ks or 11,605762 uHz (and not mHz incorrectly noted on the page). The rotation around the heater has a frequency of about 31,6887385 nHz. Cheers, Magnus From dansawyer at earthlink.net Fri Mar 6 04:51:18 2009 From: dansawyer at earthlink.net (Dan Sawyer) Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 20:51:18 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS phase lock !! Message-ID: <49B0ABC6.7010503@earthlink.net> I am new to time-nuts, and have just successfully phase locked a Jupiter GPS 10kc signal to a 10 mhz vcxo. There is jitter in the 10kc Jupiter output, as expected. How can the characteristics of the 10 mhz vxco signal be measured or analysed? A 10 mhz signal from a tcxo shows a clean sync with the locked 10 mhz signal, however there is low frequency 'jitter' between the two signals. The 10 mhz signal gains and looses over about a 40 nsec range on a random 20 to 40 second cycle. What is the root cause of this low frequency oscillation? Is it the result of the phase lock 'searching'? Or is it inherent in the 10mhz tcxo output? Thanks in advance - Dan From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Mar 6 04:58:46 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 17:58:46 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS phase lock !! In-Reply-To: <49B0ABC6.7010503@earthlink.net> References: <49B0ABC6.7010503@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <49B0AD86.6050506@xtra.co.nz> Dan Sawyer wrote: > I am new to time-nuts, and have just successfully phase locked a Jupiter > GPS 10kc signal to a 10 mhz vcxo. There is jitter in the 10kc Jupiter > output, as expected. How can the characteristics of the 10 mhz vxco > signal be measured or analysed? A 10 mhz signal from a tcxo shows a > clean sync with the locked 10 mhz signal, however there is low frequency > 'jitter' between the two signals. The 10 mhz signal gains and looses > over about a 40 nsec range on a random 20 to 40 second cycle. > > What is the root cause of this low frequency oscillation? Is it the > result of the phase lock 'searching'? Or is it inherent in the 10mhz > tcxo output? > > Thanks in advance - Dan > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Dan In order to make useful comments, more detail about your circuit and PLL time constants etc are required. Bruce From richiem at hughes.net Fri Mar 6 06:02:56 2009 From: richiem at hughes.net (Richard Moore) Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 22:02:56 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Fluke 5440B Service Manual? Message-ID: <57660F1E-803C-45AD-9881-CA8C1943C0C4@hughes.net> Hi, time-nuts. I know some of you are volt-nuts, too. I just got a Fluke 5440B DC Calibrator, which is a lovely instrument, and the service manual on the Fluke site has parts, layout and schematic pages out of order and/or completely missing (the operating manual seems to be OK). I know this because I forgot I had a guard lead hooked up to the scope and then I connected scope ground to the isolated chassis, causing a bad smell, a couple of blown fuses, and an unknown to me (so far) failure. In troubleshooting, I discovered the sad mess of the manual Fluke provides for free download. In one of the pages that is there, in BOLD CAPS it says not to do what I did.... I checked with all the usual suspects on-line and no pdf book that I know to be good is available. There is a hard copy original available for $175, but I think that's a bit much. If any of you have one or know of one I can copy, or one in pdf, I would be *most* glad to have it. Best, Dick Moore From pvince at theiet.org Fri Mar 6 14:49:44 2009 From: pvince at theiet.org (Peter Vince) Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 14:49:44 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] National Semiconductor apllication note on Low Noise SMPSUs Message-ID: <43974.1236350984@uk2.net> National Semiconductor have an application note talking about noise from switched mode power supplies, and how to minimise it - see: Peter From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Mar 6 17:55:35 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:55:35 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did some testing on a Thunderbolt with the new revision E2 (low resolution, flat line) and old revision D1 (high resolution, curvy line) DS1620 temperature sensor chips. The only thing that changed was the temperature sensor chip. Basically, I put a unit that had the new revision E2 temperature sensor into manual holdover mode and ran Lady Heather over several 24 hour (approximately) periods with the log enabled. Between each period, I put the unit back into GPS discipline mode and let it recover. Next I swapped out the temperature sensor chip with an old revision D1 chip and let the unit run for a week so that it had a chance to relearn any filter coefficients. Then I repeated the holdover log runs. I processed the logs to calculate the spread in the PPS error reading over 1 hour intervals. With the new revision E2, low res temp sensor the Thunderbolt averaged 1.73 uS of PPS change per hour. With the old revision D1, high res temp sensor the unit averaged 0.82 uS of PPS change per hour. So, it appears that the Thunderbolt does indeed use the temperature sensor readings in its disciplining of the oscillator (which is also obvious from the plots of DAC voltage vs temperature) and that the units performance (at least the holdover performance) was adversely affected when the DS1620 temperature sensor chip was changed going from rev D to rev E. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Life without walls. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_allup_1a_explore_032009 From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Fri Mar 6 20:38:53 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 09:38:53 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] National Semiconductor apllication note on Low Noise SMPSUs In-Reply-To: <43974.1236350984@uk2.net> References: <43974.1236350984@uk2.net> Message-ID: <49B189DD.1090003@xtra.co.nz> Peter Vince wrote: > National Semiconductor have an application note talking about noise from switched > mode power supplies, and how to minimise it - see: > > > > Peter > > > They have omitted the Cuk converter which can have very low EMI at the input and the output. Bruce From SAIDJACK at aol.com Fri Mar 6 22:17:50 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:17:50 EST Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor Message-ID: Hi, while this is good news for Trimble's competition and may open up the avenue for an amateur mod, I think we would have to be fair to Trimble and do the double-blind test: 1) Put the original temp sensor back into the unit, let it run one week, and do the drift tests exactly the same as before. 2) remove the sensor completely from the board, and let it run without any sensor (if the unit works this way) You may have seen the performance difference due to measurement errors, aging of the crystal, ambient temperature changes (there was over 1 week difference between the two tests, so I am sure ambient temperature effects were different on the two runs), etc. To really get to the bottom of this, you would have to put the unit into a thermal chamber and cycle it from say -20C to +60C over an hour with say 10C steps and see the frequency change versus temperature. bye, Said In a message dated 3/6/2009 09:58:07 Pacific Standard Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: So, it appears that the Thunderbolt does indeed use the temperature sensor readings in its disciplining of the oscillator (which is also obvious from the plots of DAC voltage vs temperature) and that the units performance (at least the holdover performance) was adversely affected when the DS1620 temperature sensor chip was changed going from rev D to rev E. From holrum at hotmail.com Sat Mar 7 00:03:36 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:03:36 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Said, The Tbolt that I used for the test was well aged (several months of operation) and stable prior to the tests. It was only powered down for the 10 minutes or so that it took to swap out the old sensor. I tried to choose data sets that were fairly comparable temperature wise. I also chose the basic measurement interval to be 1 hour so that temperature would not be changing much over the hour. I am fairly confident that the results reflect changes due to the temperature sensor. I wanted to make the measurement PPS drift / degree C change / hour but the later model (low res) temp sensor chip would seldom produce a recordable change in temperature over a one hour period. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 From djl at montana.com Sat Mar 7 01:37:37 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 18:37:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2877.216.14.243.135.1236389857.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> I come to the Tbolt conversation a little late. Is the source code for the servo system available? Don Mark Sims > > Hello Said, > > The Tbolt that I used for the test was well aged (several months of > operation) and stable prior to the tests. It was only powered down for > the 10 minutes or so that it took to swap out the old sensor. > > I tried to choose data sets that were fairly comparable temperature wise. > I also chose the basic measurement interval to be 1 hour so that > temperature would not be changing much over the hour. I am fairly > confident that the results reflect changes due to the temperature sensor. > > I wanted to make the measurement PPS drift / degree C change / hour but > the later model (low res) temp sensor chip would seldom produce a > recordable change in temperature over a one hour period. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sat Mar 7 03:35:30 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 22:35:30 EST Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor Message-ID: Hi there, Would you have the EFC plots while in holdover for us? You can try to place the unit into your refrigerator. That will drop it down to 3C or so from ambient. That will give you enough of a change so that you can see how the EFC changes with the two sensors.. It will also give you a good idea how good the OCXO itself can handle thermal shocks. BTW: the drift you described is quite high, it definitely busts the CDMA spec in both cases (CDMA: 7us/Day or so). But I am not surprised by this if they use the Dallas chip for temp compensation of the OCXO. A good GPSDO (with double oven) should not drift more than 1us per day typically in holdover after one week of continuous operation. bye, Said In a message dated 3/6/2009 16:04:32 Pacific Standard Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: Hello Said, The Tbolt that I used for the test was well aged (several months of operation) and stable prior to the tests. It was only powered down for the 10 minutes or so that it took to swap out the old sensor. I tried to choose data sets that were fairly comparable temperature wise. I also chose the basic measurement interval to be 1 hour so that temperature would not be changing much over the hour. I am fairly confident that the results reflect changes due to the temperature sensor. I wanted to make the measurement PPS drift / degree C change / hour but the later model (low res) temp sensor chip would seldom produce a recordable change in temperature over a one hour period. From namichie at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 03:58:23 2009 From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:58:23 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <757BC62C-FCFF-455B-914B-F270D44B8B08@gmail.com> Hi, further to Thunderbolt holdover performance, if you had your thunderbolt in a room that only had ? 1 degree temperature variation when you switched it on, then it would only learn a rather weak temperature sensitivity. If it was in a room with a daily swing of 20 degrees it should learn a fairly accurate temperature sensitivity coefficient. If you switched it on in the ?20 degree environment, then moved it to the ?1 degree environment would it eventually forget the robust tempco number and substitute a more noise prone number? The question I am asking is what is the best strategy to get the best holdover performance? This question is relevant to my plans to put my TBOLT in a ? 0.5 degree environment to help the OCXO. cheers, Neville Michie On 07/03/2009, at 2:35 PM, SAIDJACK at aol.com wrote: > Hi there, > > Would you have the EFC plots while in holdover for us? > > You can try to place the unit into your refrigerator. That will > drop it down > to 3C or so from ambient. That will give you enough of a change so > that you > can see how the EFC changes with the two sensors.. It will also > give you a > good idea how good the OCXO itself can handle thermal shocks. > > BTW: the drift you described is quite high, it definitely busts the > CDMA > spec in both cases (CDMA: 7us/Day or so). But I am not surprised by > this if they > use the Dallas chip for temp compensation of the OCXO. > > A good GPSDO (with double oven) should not drift more than 1us per day > typically in holdover after one week of continuous operation. > > bye, > Said > > > In a message dated 3/6/2009 16:04:32 Pacific Standard Time, > holrum at hotmail.com writes: > > Hello Said, > > The Tbolt that I used for the test was well aged (several months of > operation) and stable prior to the tests. It was only powered > down for the 10 > minutes or so that it took to swap out the old sensor. > > I tried to choose data sets that were fairly comparable > temperature wise. > I also chose the basic measurement interval to be 1 hour so that > temperature > would not be changing much over the hour. I am fairly confident > that the > results reflect changes due to the temperature sensor. > > I wanted to make the measurement PPS drift / degree C change / > hour but the > later model (low res) temp sensor chip would seldom produce a > recordable > change in temperature over a one hour period. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From eric.fort at gmail.com Sat Mar 7 08:39:30 2009 From: eric.fort at gmail.com (Eric Fort) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 00:39:30 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] looking for data on Magellan 10 channel OEM GPS board circa 1994-1998 Message-ID: <2ad2af430903070039x44cdc4baj54be04594d9d9ae2@mail.gmail.com> I'm looking for data on what appears to be a magellan oem GPS reciever which I removed from an older magellan aviation gps with moving map display (unit was circa 1998). The gps module I removed has "Magellan systems corp, Copyright 1994 10 channel OEM" silkscreened on the top side and a sticker on the bottom which says "23-80019-000 REV. L S/N 004925" right above 20-80011-000 REV. B" etched on the board as part of the artwork. Anyone have any idea where I may find enough data on this board to give it new life in another project? Google was unable to find anything and Magellan "Support" was so abysmnal that I will no just think twice about buying or specifying anything magellan in the future `I would more than likely just refuse to have any part in the use or implimentation. Google had no results and Magellan "lack of support" dept. was worse. any help you can offer in finding data and using this board in much appreciated. Thanks, Eric From bg at lysator.liu.se Sat Mar 7 11:47:22 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 12:47:22 +0100 (CET) Subject: [time-nuts] looking for data on Magellan 10 channel OEM GPS board circa 1994-1998 In-Reply-To: <2ad2af430903070039x44cdc4baj54be04594d9d9ae2@mail.gmail.com> References: <2ad2af430903070039x44cdc4baj54be04594d9d9ae2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <60865.87.227.52.225.1236426442.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Eric, > I'm looking for data on what appears to be a magellan oem GPS reciever > which I removed from an older magellan aviation gps with moving map > display (unit was circa 1998). The gps module I removed has "Magellan > systems corp, Copyright 1994 10 channel OEM" silkscreened on the top > side and a sticker on the bottom which says "23-80019-000 REV. L S/N > 004925" right above 20-80011-000 REV. B" etched on the board as part > of the artwork. Anyone have any idea where I may find enough data on > this board to give it new life in another project? Google was unable > to find anything and Magellan "Support" was so abysmnal that I will no > just think twice about buying or specifying anything magellan in the > future `I would more than likely just refuse to have any part in the > use or implimentation. Google had no results and Magellan "lack of > support" dept. was worse. any help you can offer in finding data and > using this board in much appreciated. IIRC, someone mentioned a breakthrough with obtaining a OEM 5000-manual some months ago. Also, not that the present "Magellan PRO GPS"-division of Magellan really is the heritage of Ashtech. The old Magellan OEM boards have a separate origin. > Thanks, > > Eric > -- Bj?rn > From Helmut.Imlau at t-online.de Sat Mar 7 16:31:00 2009 From: Helmut.Imlau at t-online.de (Helmut.Imlau at t-online.de) Date: 07 Mar 2009 16:31 GMT Subject: [time-nuts] delete Message-ID: <1LfzQo-0CwwoC0@fwd02.aul.t-online.de> Please delete me from the email distribution list. Thanks! Helmut From GandalfG8 at aol.com Sat Mar 7 16:33:47 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 11:33:47 EST Subject: [time-nuts] delete Message-ID: In a message dated 07/03/2009 16:32:31 GMT Standard Time, Helmut.Imlau at t-online.de writes: Please delete me from the email distribution list. Thanks! Helmut _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --------------- Makes yer wonder don't it? From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 17:58:14 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:58:14 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A Message-ID: <49B2B5B6.2050402@sci.fi> Hello! I got one of the 544's and plan to use it for rubidium cleaning loop (Efratom LPRO). But I cannot get a clean 10 MHz signal out from it! There are harmonics and spurious. I know that spurious come from oven swicther so those should be easily handled with separate oven supply. But the bigger problem are the harmonics: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-4.png This spectrum is measured with emitter follower buffer connected to output which is terminated with 1k like datasheet recommends. So the load should be ideal but still distorted. The distortion can be seen even with oscilloscope: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-6.png So it ooks like negative half cycle is distorted. As a reference, THIS is the signal to be cleaned with HP10544A: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/LPRO-3.PNG :-) So... I believe that there may be something wrong with HP10544A if it's output is worse than lower grade xtal oscillators used in LPRO etc. But just to make sure I'm asking you guys having these oscillators. Should it even give clean sine wave or not? And if it should, where should I start to seek the fault? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From brooke at pacific.net Sat Mar 7 19:31:04 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 11:31:04 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Multipath Testing Message-ID: <49B2CB78.4020209@pacific.net> Hi: I would like to have a way of measuring the multipath effecting my house GPS antenna both in terms of it's effect on position and on timing. Can this be done using the M12+T? -- Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 7 19:44:19 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 13:44:19 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2B5B6.2050402@sci.fi> Message-ID: I tried to view the files on amigazone but was 'denied'. Any way to get a look? Am I doing something wrong? I tried with IE 7 and FireFox with no luck. I have several 10544A's and they all put out a 10 MHz signal but it is sort of a 'ramp like' wave as viewed on the oscilloscope that looks rich in harmonics. My 10811's seem to have a pure sine wave though I have not looked at it on a spectrum analyzer yet. I was going to get around to asking the same question about the 10544A's. Are all mine bad or is this normal function? Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Esa Heikkinen Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 11:58 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A Hello! I got one of the 544's and plan to use it for rubidium cleaning loop (Efratom LPRO). But I cannot get a clean 10 MHz signal out from it! There are harmonics and spurious. I know that spurious come from oven swicther so those should be easily handled with separate oven supply. But the bigger problem are the harmonics: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-4.png This spectrum is measured with emitter follower buffer connected to output which is terminated with 1k like datasheet recommends. So the load should be ideal but still distorted. The distortion can be seen even with oscilloscope: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-6.png So it ooks like negative half cycle is distorted. As a reference, THIS is the signal to be cleaned with HP10544A: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/LPRO-3.PNG :-) So... I believe that there may be something wrong with HP10544A if it's output is worse than lower grade xtal oscillators used in LPRO etc. But just to make sure I'm asking you guys having these oscillators. Should it even give clean sine wave or not? And if it should, where should I start to seek the fault? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 20:00:20 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:00:20 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B2D254.60503@sci.fi> Hello.. > I tried to view the files on amigazone but was 'denied'. Yes there's many network bans and all thanks for this belongs to couple of spambots trying to scan the webserver at multiple IP's at same time. I just changed the IP bans based on IP address where you send your mail. You should now have access. Can you see the pictures? > Any way to get a look? Am I doing something wrong? You are not doing anything wrong but someone else does with their spambots... :-( > I have several 10544A's and they all put out a 10 MHz signal but it is sort > of a 'ramp like' wave as viewed on the oscilloscope that looks rich in > harmonics. My 10811's seem to have a pure sine wave though I have not > looked at it on a spectrum analyzer yet. Oh no.. then it could mean that 544 is no good for that project... -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sat Mar 7 20:13:10 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 21:13:10 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Multipath Testing In-Reply-To: <49B2CB78.4020209@pacific.net> References: <49B2CB78.4020209@pacific.net> Message-ID: <49B2D556.3050607@rubidium.dyndns.org> Brooke Clarke skrev: > Hi: > > I would like to have a way of measuring the multipath effecting my house GPS > antenna both in terms of it's effect on position and on timing. Can this be > done using the M12+T? > To some degree you can do this. It is a bit tricky since you need to recall a few things: 1) Each receiver behaves somewhat differently to multipath. 2) Multipath degradation is per sat and due to orientation on the sky. 3) The aggregate error and multipath offset depends on the set of satellites being chosen. Adjustments on aggregate position/time needs to account for sats actually tracked. Best thing is to correct for each sat individual. Preferred is to measure multiple passages of sats using a stable local oscillator to steer the clock in the receiver. The pseudo-ranges of trackes sats should be extracted rather than aggregate position along with ephimeris data. RINEX files is a suitable format to dump. Such dumping is however not something which all receivers support. Cheers, Magnus From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 7 20:13:54 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 14:13:54 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2D254.60503@sci.fi> Message-ID: I looked at your oscilloscope signal and it looks cleaner than mine but I looked at mine at a slower sweep and both 50-ohm termination and 1-Megohm termination. Can you look at it on the oscilloscope with 50-ohm and 1-Megohm termination and display several cycles? I suspect we are seeing the same thing. I just don't know if it is the normal function of the 10544A. Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Esa Heikkinen Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:00 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A Hello.. > I tried to view the files on amigazone but was 'denied'. Yes there's many network bans and all thanks for this belongs to couple of spambots trying to scan the webserver at multiple IP's at same time. I just changed the IP bans based on IP address where you send your mail. You should now have access. Can you see the pictures? > Any way to get a look? Am I doing something wrong? You are not doing anything wrong but someone else does with their spambots... :-( > I have several 10544A's and they all put out a 10 MHz signal but it is sort > of a 'ramp like' wave as viewed on the oscilloscope that looks rich in > harmonics. My 10811's seem to have a pure sine wave though I have not > looked at it on a spectrum analyzer yet. Oh no.. then it could mean that 544 is no good for that project... -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 20:48:27 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 09:48:27 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> DO NOT use a 50 ohm termination as this may damage the output emitter follower. At the very least the waveform distortion will increase considerably. The output stage isn't designed to drive 50 ohm loads. Nor is it intended to drive large capacitances so use a 10x scope probe to keep the load capacitance down. Its possible that your load capacitance is too high. If so the npn emitter follower output stage will distort on the negative 1/2 cycle. New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. Maybe the emitter followers dc collector current isnt large enough. Despite the warnings its relatively easy to open them up and repair them. As long as you don't alter anything in the oscillator circuit it probably wont be necessary to tediously retune the oven temperature control system. Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I looked at your oscilloscope signal and it looks cleaner than mine but I > looked at mine at a slower sweep and both 50-ohm termination and 1-Megohm > termination. > > Can you look at it on the oscilloscope with 50-ohm and 1-Megohm termination > and display several cycles? > > I suspect we are seeing the same thing. I just don't know if it is the > normal function of the 10544A. > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Esa Heikkinen > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 2:00 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A > > Hello.. > > >> I tried to view the files on amigazone but was 'denied'. >> > > Yes there's many network bans and all thanks for this belongs to couple > of spambots trying to scan the webserver at multiple IP's at same time. > > I just changed the IP bans based on IP address where you send your mail. > You should now have access. > > Can you see the pictures? > > >> Any way to get a look? Am I doing something wrong? >> > > You are not doing anything wrong but someone else does with their > spambots... :-( > > >> I have several 10544A's and they all put out a 10 MHz signal but it is >> > sort > >> of a 'ramp like' wave as viewed on the oscilloscope that looks rich in >> harmonics. My 10811's seem to have a pure sine wave though I have not >> looked at it on a spectrum analyzer yet. >> > > Oh no.. then it could mean that 544 is no good for that project... > > -- > 73s! > Esa > OH4KJU > > From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 21:18:33 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:18:33 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> > New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. > Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. Sorry I forgot to say that the oscilloscope picture was taken directly from HP10544A output, without emitter follower but with 1:1 probe, output terminated with 1 kohm. resistor. With spectrum analyzer the emitter follower is necessary due to 50 ohm. input impedance of the analyzer. Datasheet of HP10544A claims that harmonics should be more than 25 dB down. Doesn't look like they are. Here's a spectrum measured from OCXO which is used in the Thunderbolt. I'm not an crystal oscillator guru but I think that this is just what an xtal oscillator output should be: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-1.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-2.png -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 21:23:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:23:49 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B2E5E5.6030009@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. >> Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. >> > > Sorry I forgot to say that the oscilloscope picture was taken directly > from HP10544A output, without emitter follower but with 1:1 probe, > output terminated with 1 kohm. resistor. With spectrum analyzer the > emitter follower is necessary due to 50 ohm. input impedance of the > analyzer. > > Datasheet of HP10544A claims that harmonics should be more than 25 dB > down. Doesn't look like they are. > > Here's a spectrum measured from OCXO which is used in the Thunderbolt. > I'm not an crystal oscillator guru but I think that this is just what an > xtal oscillator output should be: > > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-1.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-2.png > > Esa The capacitance of the 1x probe is too high. Use a 10x probe with 1k across its inputs at the 10544A. The 10544A output stage is an emitter follower. Bruce From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 21:34:44 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:34:44 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E5E5.6030009@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E5E5.6030009@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B2E874.9090905@sci.fi> > The capacitance of the 1x probe is too high. So I have to check that also: it shows 46 pF on 1x mode and 10.6 pF in 10x mode. Ok so the main question is that what kind of amplifier I should use with 10544A to get a clean signal, if it can't stand even an oscilloscope without distortion on it's output? And what do that kind of amplifier cost - more than HP10811, for example? Many other OCXO's (like thunderbolt's) can be connected directly to the 50 ohms. load without any trouble with harmonics. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From jltran at worldnet.att.net Sat Mar 7 21:32:37 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 15:32:37 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E5E5.6030009@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: I have been able to find schematics of the 10544A but not a service manual. Is there a service manual available? Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:24 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. >> Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. >> > > Sorry I forgot to say that the oscilloscope picture was taken directly > from HP10544A output, without emitter follower but with 1:1 probe, > output terminated with 1 kohm. resistor. With spectrum analyzer the > emitter follower is necessary due to 50 ohm. input impedance of the > analyzer. > > Datasheet of HP10544A claims that harmonics should be more than 25 dB > down. Doesn't look like they are. > > Here's a spectrum measured from OCXO which is used in the Thunderbolt. > I'm not an crystal oscillator guru but I think that this is just what an > xtal oscillator output should be: > > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-1.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-2.png > > Esa The capacitance of the 1x probe is too high. Use a 10x probe with 1k across its inputs at the 10544A. The 10544A output stage is an emitter follower. Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 21:36:49 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:36:49 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. >> Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. >> > > Sorry I forgot to say that the oscilloscope picture was taken directly > from HP10544A output, without emitter follower but with 1:1 probe, > output terminated with 1 kohm. resistor. With spectrum analyzer the > emitter follower is necessary due to 50 ohm. input impedance of the > analyzer. > > Datasheet of HP10544A claims that harmonics should be more than 25 dB > down. Doesn't look like they are. > > Here's a spectrum measured from OCXO which is used in the Thunderbolt. > I'm not an crystal oscillator guru but I think that this is just what an > xtal oscillator output should be: > > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-1.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-2.png > > Esa Please provide a circuit schematic for your emitter follower buffer. Include transistor types and component values as well as power supply voltages. Bruce From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 21:46:36 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:46:36 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B2EB3C.9070706@sci.fi> > Please provide a circuit schematic for your emitter follower buffer. > Include transistor types and component values as well as power supply > voltages. 10nF DC-blocks at input and output, 4k7 pullup and 10k pulldown at the base, 180 ohms pulldown from the emitter, 12V input voltage having some 100n coupling capacitors. BC547 as transistor (should do 250 MHz?). I built that from schematic of 10 MHz distribution amplifier but with dirrefent transistor (there was BC849C in the schematic) and without LC-filters at output. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 21:51:46 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:51:46 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B2EC72.7030701@xtra.co.nz> It was always intended for factory repair only so a service manual may not be readily available. The schematic is comprehensive enough that one hardly needs one. The tricky part is setting the oven temperature. There's probably a description in the relevant HP Journal (probably early 70's). Bruce J. L. Trantham wrote: > I have been able to find schematics of the 10544A but not a service manual. > Is there a service manual available? > > Joe > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On > Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 3:24 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A > > Esa Heikkinen wrote: > >>> New 10544A's have a somewhat cleaner output than that. >>> Perhaps something is wrong with the emitter follower. >>> >>> >> Sorry I forgot to say that the oscilloscope picture was taken directly >> from HP10544A output, without emitter follower but with 1:1 probe, >> output terminated with 1 kohm. resistor. With spectrum analyzer the >> emitter follower is necessary due to 50 ohm. input impedance of the >> analyzer. >> >> Datasheet of HP10544A claims that harmonics should be more than 25 dB >> down. Doesn't look like they are. >> >> Here's a spectrum measured from OCXO which is used in the Thunderbolt. >> I'm not an crystal oscillator guru but I think that this is just what an >> xtal oscillator output should be: >> >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-1.png >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/tbolt-2.png >> >> >> > Esa > > The capacitance of the 1x probe is too high. > Use a 10x probe with 1k across its inputs at the 10544A. > The 10544A output stage is an emitter follower. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sat Mar 7 21:57:04 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:57:04 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> I also doubt that there could be something wrong with emitter follower so I also did some tests with "capacitive coupler" build on bottom PCB of the HP10544: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544coupler.jpg (1 kohm. terminaton is not visible on the picture) Generally it's just a wire going over 10 MHz trace on the PCB and then it's connected to the spectrum. By this way it's possible to measure the output without loading it with any galvanic connection. Of course there is almost 30 dB of loss but it's not any trouble with spectrum analyzer having over -145 dBm noise floor. But with that kind of measure the output specrum looks like this: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-5.png So there's less harmonics but 2nd and 3rd are still high if compared with other OCXO's. Hard to say anything of higher harmonics because that kind of coupler takes in all background noise like FM broadcasts etc. so I wouldn't trust these measurements too much (and because of that I didn't even mention them at first). -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 22:02:54 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:02:54 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2EB3C.9070706@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EB3C.9070706@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B2EF0E.7070100@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> Please provide a circuit schematic for your emitter follower buffer. >> Include transistor types and component values as well as power supply >> voltages. >> > > 10nF DC-blocks at input and output, 4k7 pullup and 10k pulldown at the > base, 180 ohms pulldown from the emitter, 12V input voltage having some > 100n coupling capacitors. BC547 as transistor (should do 250 MHz?). > > I built that from schematic of 10 MHz distribution amplifier but with > dirrefent transistor (there was BC849C in the schematic) and without > LC-filters at output. > > Esa The emitter follower current is too low to drive 1Vrms into 50 ohms directly. Its probably better to increase the emitter current to 40mA or so and place 47 ohms between the emitter and the output coupling capacitor and accept the resultant +7dBm output. The transistor dissipation will increase and it may be better to substitute something like a 2N5943, 2N3866, 2N 5109, BFW16A or similar. You will also need to reduce the values of resitors in the resistive divider at the base or use collector current sensing via a small signal pnp a LED and a few resistors to ensure a predictable emitter current. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 22:04:10 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:04:10 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2E874.9090905@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E5E5.6030009@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E874.9090905@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B2EF5A.1020400@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> The capacitance of the 1x probe is too high. >> > > So I have to check that also: it shows 46 pF on 1x mode and 10.6 pF in > 10x mode. > > Ok so the main question is that what kind of amplifier I should use with > 10544A to get a clean signal, if it can't stand even an oscilloscope > without distortion on it's output? And what do that kind of amplifier > cost - more than HP10811, for example? > > Many other OCXO's (like thunderbolt's) can be connected directly to the > 50 ohms. load without any trouble with harmonics. > > Esa You can easily construct a suitable buffer amplifier using inexpensive and readily available parts. It was an early design, intended to drive a 1k load located very close to the connector terminals. The buffer design depends on what reverse isolation you require and what output signal level. The venerable LH0033C has been used as a buffer to drive a 50 ohm load. However it is relatively expensive if its even available. Since this is RF you dont need the low offset voltage and drift of such a device. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 22:10:08 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:10:08 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B2F0C0.9070008@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > I also doubt that there could be something wrong with emitter follower > so I also did some tests with "capacitive coupler" build on bottom PCB > of the HP10544: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544coupler.jpg > (1 kohm. terminaton is not visible on the picture) > > Generally it's just a wire going over 10 MHz trace on the PCB and then > it's connected to the spectrum. By this way it's possible to measure the > output without loading it with any galvanic connection. Of course there > is almost 30 dB of loss but it's not any trouble with spectrum analyzer > having over -145 dBm noise floor. > > But with that kind of measure the output specrum looks like this: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-5.png > > So there's less harmonics but 2nd and 3rd are still high if compared > with other OCXO's. Hard to say anything of higher harmonics because that > kind of coupler takes in all background noise like FM broadcasts etc. so > I wouldn't trust these measurements too much (and because of that I > didn't even mention them at first). > > Esa The distortion now appears to be within specification. You cant expect much better given the 10544A internal buffer amplifier topology. Your can always use relatively high Q traps for the 2nd and 3rd harmonics if they are a problem. The best location for these is within your external low distortion buffer amplifier. It would seem likely that the scope measurements with a ~ 50pF load are misleading, try for a 10pF or lower load capacitance. Your external emitter follower also has significant distortion when driving a 50 ohm load. Bruce From alan.melia at btinternet.com Sat Mar 7 22:48:51 2009 From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 22:48:51 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] delete References: <1LfzQo-0CwwoC0@fwd02.aul.t-online.de> Message-ID: <009301c99f78$d6511620$0900a8c0@AM> Helmut maybe you are not seeing it but it is the 2nd line attached below. Alan G3NYK ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 4:31 PM Subject: [time-nuts] delete > Please delete me from the email distribution list. > Thanks! > Helmut > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sat Mar 7 23:26:21 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 12:26:21 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B3029D.6030609@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > I also doubt that there could be something wrong with emitter follower > so I also did some tests with "capacitive coupler" build on bottom PCB > of the HP10544: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544coupler.jpg > (1 kohm. terminaton is not visible on the picture) > > Generally it's just a wire going over 10 MHz trace on the PCB and then > it's connected to the spectrum. By this way it's possible to measure the > output without loading it with any galvanic connection. Of course there > is almost 30 dB of loss but it's not any trouble with spectrum analyzer > having over -145 dBm noise floor. > > But with that kind of measure the output specrum looks like this: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-5.png > > So there's less harmonics but 2nd and 3rd are still high if compared > with other OCXO's. Hard to say anything of higher harmonics because that > kind of coupler takes in all background noise like FM broadcasts etc. so > I wouldn't trust these measurements too much (and because of that I > didn't even mention them at first). > > Esa I've set up a Spice simulation of the 10544A output stage (includes the 1k2 source impedance at the 10544A emitter follower input) plus an emitter follower biased as you describe. About the only way to achieve the distortion you observe is if the capacitance of the wire connecting your emitter follower to the 10544A output is too large (around 50pF or more). Can you send a picture of this connection? Did you use PVC insulated wire for this? Bruce From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Mar 8 00:10:00 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 02:10:00 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3029D.6030609@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> <49B3029D.6030609@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B30CD8.8000307@sci.fi> > Its probably better to increase the emitter current to 40mA or > so and place 47 ohms between the emitter and the output coupling > capacitor a and accept the resultant +7dBm output. > The transistor dissipation will increase and it may be better to > substitute something like a 2N5943, 2N3866, 2N 5109, BFW16A > or similar. I don't have those 2N types but after some digging found 2N2219A. Changed that and 47 ohms from emitter to the ground. I run it first with 6 volts, then with 9 volts and then with 12 volts but have to stop with uncomplete sweep because it become very hot. Increasing the current does help with amplifier linearity but not so much. However the spectrum looks little bit better now but it's still out of spec: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-7.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-8.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-9.png > About the only way to achieve the distortion you observe is if the > capacitance of the wire connecting your emitter follower to the 10544A > output is too large (around 50pF or more). It's about 30 cm. long microwave coax taken out from some RF stuff (maybe old cellphone). It's measured capacitance (at the other end free) is 36,2 pF. I'll send the picture later if still needed.. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From n3toy at yahoo.com Sun Mar 8 00:40:47 2009 From: n3toy at yahoo.com (James R. Gorr) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 16:40:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [time-nuts] delete In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <683673.91349.qm@web54106.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Reading and comprehension skills skills aside, Helmut is an ubber cool name! ++ Helmut! > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. --- On Sat, 3/7/09, GandalfG8 at aol.com wrote: > From: GandalfG8 at aol.com > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] delete > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Date: Saturday, March 7, 2009, 8:33 AM > In a message dated 07/03/2009 16:32:31 GMT Standard Time, > Helmut.Imlau at t-online.de writes: > > Please delete me from the email distribution list. > Thanks! > Helmut > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > --------------- > Makes yer wonder don't it? > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 01:12:40 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:12:40 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B30CD8.8000307@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> <49B3029D.6030609@xtra.co.nz> <49B30CD8.8000307@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B31B88.7080004@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > > Its probably better to increase the emitter current to 40mA or > > so and place 47 ohms between the emitter and the output coupling > > capacitor a and accept the resultant +7dBm output. > > The transistor dissipation will increase and it may be better to > > substitute something like a 2N5943, 2N3866, 2N 5109, BFW16A > > or similar. > > I don't have those 2N types but after some digging found 2N2219A. > Changed that and 47 ohms from emitter to the ground. I run it first with > 6 volts, then with 9 volts and then with 12 volts but have to stop with > uncomplete sweep because it become very hot. > > Thats why I suggested transistors in T05 or T039 cases so that you can use a heatsink. > Increasing the current does help with amplifier linearity but not so > much. However the spectrum looks little bit better now but it's still > out of spec: > > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-7.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-8.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-9.png > > >> About the only way to achieve the distortion you observe is if the >> capacitance of the wire connecting your emitter follower to the 10544A >> output is too large (around 50pF or more). >> > > It's about 30 cm. long microwave coax taken out from some RF stuff > (maybe old cellphone). It's measured capacitance (at the other end free) > is 36,2 pF. > > I'll send the picture later if still needed.. > > Esa 36pF from the cable plus a little additional stray capacitance is probably more than sufficient to cause most of the observed distortion. Try using very short leads (< 5cm long) to connect to the emitter follower buffer. You need to keep the capacitance < 10pF or so. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 01:16:07 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:16:07 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B30CD8.8000307@sci.fi> References: <49B2DD9B.8010800@xtra.co.nz> <49B2E4A9.3000900@sci.fi> <49B2E8F1.2080705@xtra.co.nz> <49B2EDB0.30401@sci.fi> <49B3029D.6030609@xtra.co.nz> <49B30CD8.8000307@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B31C57.3000806@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > > Its probably better to increase the emitter current to 40mA or > > so and place 47 ohms between the emitter and the output coupling > > capacitor a and accept the resultant +7dBm output. > > The transistor dissipation will increase and it may be better to > > substitute something like a 2N5943, 2N3866, 2N 5109, BFW16A > > or similar. > > I don't have those 2N types but after some digging found 2N2219A. > Changed that and 47 ohms from emitter to the ground. I run it first with > 6 volts, then with 9 volts and then with 12 volts but have to stop with > uncomplete sweep because it become very hot. > > Increasing the current does help with amplifier linearity but not so > much. However the spectrum looks little bit better now but it's still > out of spec: > > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-7.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-8.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-9.png > > >> About the only way to achieve the distortion you observe is if the >> capacitance of the wire connecting your emitter follower to the 10544A >> output is too large (around 50pF or more). >> > > It's about 30 cm. long microwave coax taken out from some RF stuff > (maybe old cellphone). It's measured capacitance (at the other end free) > is 36,2 pF. > > I'll send the picture later if still needed.. > > Esa A quick and dirty fix is to use a low Q (use a resistor in series) inductor connected between the cable output and ground (or equivalent location) of the right value to cancel most of the input capacitance at 10MHz. Bruce From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Mar 8 01:41:19 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 17:41:19 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A References: Message-ID: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> >I have been able to find schematics of the 10544A but not a service manual. > Is there a service manual available? http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10544/ I'll look for something like a service manual. I know I have some interesting info in the 10544. When I find it I'll update the page. One thing you could do is look at hp op/service manuals of instruments (e.g., frequency counters) made in the late 70's and see how they integrated the 10544 into their design. This will give you hints on both input power and output buffering. I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the info you need from the PDF files. /tvb From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 01:48:55 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:48:55 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> Message-ID: <49B32407.5080308@xtra.co.nz> Tom Van Baak wrote: >> I have been able to find schematics of the 10544A but not a service manual. >> Is there a service manual available? >> > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10544/ > > I'll look for something like a service manual. I know I have some > interesting info in the 10544. When I find it I'll update the page. > > One thing you could do is look at hp op/service manuals of > instruments (e.g., frequency counters) made in the late 70's > and see how they integrated the 10544 into their design. This > will give you hints on both input power and output buffering. > > I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. > Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and > then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the > info you need from the PDF files. > > /tvb > > > > Output buffering is easy, however the load capacitance seen by the 10544A must be kept below about 10pF to meet the distortion specifications. This means the buffer needs to be very close to the 10544A output pin unless one uses positive feedback or other techniques (eg shunt inductor) to cancel excessive input capacitance. The load impedance needs to be 1Kohm or higher at 10MHz, to avoid excessive distortion on the negative portion of the 10MHz nominally sinewave output. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 02:11:31 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:11:31 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> Message-ID: <49B32953.2010502@xtra.co.nz> Tom Van Baak wrote: >> I have been able to find schematics of the 10544A but not a service manual. >> Is there a service manual available? >> > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/10544/ > > I'll look for something like a service manual. I know I have some > interesting info in the 10544. When I find it I'll update the page. > > One thing you could do is look at hp op/service manuals of > instruments (e.g., frequency counters) made in the late 70's > and see how they integrated the 10544 into their design. This > will give you hints on both input power and output buffering. > > I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. > Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and > then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the > info you need from the PDF files. > > /tvb > > > Tom No 5245 manuals on Agilent site nor the agilent ftp site nor BAMA site. The HP5370A also used a 10544A as an optional high stability timebase OCXO. The reference buffer PCB is close to the 10544A socket. The reference buffer consists of a series string of 3x 1/3 MC10216 ECL line receivers. The reference input pin uses a 1k resistor in series with 10pF connected to the input of the first ECL line receiver. This buffer is somewhat crude, but nevetheless has adequate performance for its intended application. Bruce From newell at cei.net Sun Mar 8 02:28:51 2009 From: newell at cei.net (Scott Newell) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:28:51 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> Message-ID: <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: >I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. >Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and >then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the >info you need from the PDF files. My 5345A has a 10544A. -- newell N5TNL From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 02:38:38 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:38:38 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> Message-ID: <49B32FAE.9050102@xtra.co.nz> Scott Newell wrote: > At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: > > >> I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. >> Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and >> then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the >> info you need from the PDF files. >> > > My 5345A has a 10544A. > > The 5345A manual is available from the BAMA site (however it may take awhile to connect) Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 02:48:02 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:48:02 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> Message-ID: <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> Scott Newell wrote: > At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: > > >> I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. >> Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and >> then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the >> info you need from the PDF files. >> > > My 5345A has a 10544A. > > Scott The 10MHz buffer is merely a cascade of 3 ECL line receivers. Bruce From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Sun Mar 8 02:58:36 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Sat, 07 Mar 2009 20:58:36 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B32FAE.9050102@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B32FAE.9050102@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B3345C.7030405@sasktel.net> I've always found that the BAMA mirror site at [1]http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ is much faster than the main site. Ed Bruce Griffiths wrote: Scott Newell wrote: At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and then you can head off to the online manual sites and grab the info you need from the PDF files. My 5345A has a 10544A. The 5345A manual is available from the BAMA site (however it may take awhile to connect) Bruce _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- [2]time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nut s and follow the instructions there. References 1. http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/ 2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com 3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 03:17:45 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 16:17:45 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> 10544A buffers 5370A: 1K + 10pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of an ECL line receiver cascade. 5345A: 1K + 910pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of CC CB long tailed pair isolation amplifier. 1K from CC base to ground. Since the 10544A phase noise floor is relatively high (~ -145dBc for the later variants earlier versions had a significantly higher noise floor spec) using 1K in series adds little additional noise. Bruce From tvb at LeapSecond.com Sun Mar 8 04:14:58 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:14:58 -0800 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor References: Message-ID: <23A25E5CF69A40CF8741EDD619D7422C@pc52> See: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-temp/ Hi Mark, This is very interesting work that you're doing with Thunderbolt DS1620 temperature sensors. I hope you stick with it. I agree with Said about the double bind idea. I worry too that your TBolts are remembering something of the past in spite of the hardware changes you make for each new run. Do you do a full factory reset each time? And then let the unit "re-learn" for several hours, or maybe several days? Do we really know how or what it is learning and how that affects the response to temperature? Having tried tempco measurements in the past I have several concerns about mythology. It's really hard to get this right and even harder when you don't know what "smart" algorithms are inside the box you're trying to test. In this situation, it seems to me the main thing about temperature is not temperature at all, but the *rate* at which the temperature changes. In that case, even careful cycling of room temperature every day or cycling temperature inside a special chamber every hour will not give you the real story -- because in both cases the focus is on varying the temperature; not the rate at which the temperature is changing. Compounding the problem is that different components in the system will react to temperature at different rates. The DS1620 is plastic and may react quickly. The OCXO is metal and will react slowly. Who knows what additional component's tempco are relevant to the final 10 MHz output. Some may overreact at first and then settle down. I guess in the ideal world you'd want to do a "sweep" where you go through several cycles of temperature extreme at rates varying from, say, one cycle per minute all the way up one cycle per day. It seems to me you'd end up with some kind of spectrum, in which tempco is a function of temp-cycle-rate. Has anyone seen analysis like this? For example, I'd guess that most GPSDO have low sensitivity to wild temperature cycles every second -- because of its own thermal mass. And I bet most GPSDO have low sensitivity to wild temperature swings every few hours -- because the OCXO easily handles slow changes like this well. It's for time scales in between those two that you either hit sweet spots or get very confused and react just opposite of what you should. I'm thinking another testing approach is to varying the temperature somewhat randomly; with random temperature *amplitude* along with random temperature *rate*. Using this temperature input, and measured GPSDO phase or frequency output, you might be able to do some fancy math and come up with a transfer function that tells the whole story; correlation; gain and lag as a function of rate, or something like that. I'll do some reading on this, or perhaps someone on the list can fill in the details? I say all of this -- because of an accident in my lab today. Have a careful look at these preliminary plots and tell me what you think. It shows anything but a nice one-to-one positive linear relationship between ambient temperature and GPSDO output. http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-temp/ /tvb From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Mar 8 08:23:13 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 10:23:13 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> > 5370A: 1K + 10pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of an > ECL line receiver cascade. > 5345A: 1K + 910pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of CC > CB long tailed pair isolation amplifier. > 1K from CC base to ground. What do you think: if I would be able to create perfect buffer for it somehow will it still have worse spectrum than tbolt ocxo for example? With capasitive coupler test the 2nd anr 3rd harmonic was still high. Maybe it's the best what it's possible to get with 10544 anyhow? So is it even reasonable to try or just get some other ocxo? I would like to have as clean 10 MHz as possible with reasonable price. Let's say that the spectrum what tbolt ocxo gives could be some kind of minimum. But I'll need that ocxo inside thunderbolt in it's original place. > Since the 10544A phase noise floor is relatively high (~ -145dBc for the > later variants earlier versions had a significantly higher noise floor > spec) using 1K in series adds little additional noise. Is it so that 10544A isn't good for RF lab reference at all? Maybe it's designed just for counters etc. where the spurious or harmonics are not so big deal? Unfortunately I'm so rookie with these that clearly I'm seeking wrong stuff. At very first I expected to have a good 10 MHz reference with just using thundrbolt but then noticed that it's for time, not frequency reference. Maybe 10544A is intended for timing applications also, not as frequency standard? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 08:52:13 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:52:13 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> 5370A: 1K + 10pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of an >> ECL line receiver cascade. >> 5345A: 1K + 910pF in series connected from 10544A output to input of CC >> CB long tailed pair isolation amplifier. >> 1K from CC base to ground. >> > > What do you think: if I would be able to create perfect buffer for it > somehow will it still have worse spectrum than tbolt ocxo for example? > With capasitive coupler test the 2nd anr 3rd harmonic was still high. > Maybe it's the best what it's possible to get with 10544 anyhow? > > So is it even reasonable to try or just get some other ocxo? I would > like to have as clean 10 MHz as possible with reasonable price. Let's > say that the spectrum what tbolt ocxo gives could be some kind of > minimum. But I'll need that ocxo inside thunderbolt in it's original place. > > >> Since the 10544A phase noise floor is relatively high (~ -145dBc for the >> later variants earlier versions had a significantly higher noise floor >> spec) using 1K in series adds little additional noise. >> > > Is it so that 10544A isn't good for RF lab reference at all? Maybe it's > designed just for counters etc. where the spurious or harmonics are not > so big deal? > > Unfortunately I'm so rookie with these that clearly I'm seeking wrong > stuff. At very first I expected to have a good 10 MHz reference with > just using thundrbolt but then noticed that it's for time, not frequency > reference. Maybe 10544A is intended for timing applications also, not as > frequency standard? > > Esa A more efficient buffer like a white emitter follower using 2 x npn + 1 x pnp would be best. If you want I can post such a circuit using BC546 + BC556 or similar. This buffer needs to be located with 5cm or less of the OCXO connector unless you use capacitance cancellation techniques. If you elect to use an inductor to cancel most of the capacitance then the total capacitance should be more than about 50pF or so if you use a 10% tolerance inductor. Aside from the oven switching related spurs the 10544A isnt too bad. Although the phase noise floor is a little high by modern standards. Filtering out the second and 3rd harmonics is relatively easy. A 10811A is somewhat cleaner at least it doesn't have any oven related spurs and its intended to drive a 50 ohm load directly (+7dBm). First you need to decide what output level you want: +7dBm? +13dBm? The how far do you need to suppress the 2nd and 3rd harmonics? Do you need them to be 50dB below the carrier or 60dB below the carrier or even more? You need to set some actual specs. Attenuating them by 20dB is easy if you need to suppress them much further it gets more difficult. Don't use a high Q bandpass filter as its phase shift tempco will be relatively high. The other issue is that you will probably need a high reverse isolation frequency distribution amplifier if you intend that attaching or removing various loads not affect the OCXO frequency by less than 1E-12 or less. Bruce From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Mar 8 09:53:27 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:53:27 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> Hi Bruce > A more efficient buffer like a white emitter follower using 2 x npn + 1 > x pnp would be best. > If you want I can post such a circuit using BC546 + BC556 or similar. Yes if you have that kind of schematic I'd like to test it. It won't take much time to do breadboard testing. I have BC547's and BC557's ready in the shelf, all E12 resistor values are available but capasitors and coils are not so easy; of course any standard values like 100n, 10n, 22...33p etc. are available at a moment. Coils are most difficult however LCR meter is available but I don't have any cores that might be necessary to make coils for this purpose? > This buffer needs to be located with 5cm or less of the OCXO connector > unless you use capacitance cancellation techniques. Ok.. there was a "bottom PCB" used all my previous tests, which itself has about 5 cm. trace before coaxial connector. I don't know where this PCB is originally used. It included 12V regulator and some filtering. But maybe i could get the signal directly from output pins without using a coax at all, with just a pair of very short wires and take the OCXO as close as breadboard as possible. > First you need to decide what output level you want: > +7dBm? +13dBm? Many instuments seems to want as much as 1V input for external reference. That seems odd because the level is so high that it will cause a 10 MHz spurious peak easily. So I think the +13 dBm should be enough. There will be some kind of distribution amplifier in final design and I have no idea about it's gain (not selected any yet). But let's assume it will have gain of 1:1. > The how far do you need to suppress the 2nd and 3rd harmonics? There's no specification for these. But if we think about the application which is to clean the LPRO's output signal it would be nice to have at least same kind of harmonics performance that LRPO itself has. It has some kind of lower grade crystal inside but I have no idea maybe there are some filtering because the spectrum is fine: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/LPRO-3.PNG Some spurious on 50 MHz and below 150 MHz still present. > You need to set some actual specs. I think good spec is that it has to clean the LPRO's output, not get it worse. I know it's main purpose is rubidium noise cleaning, which is not seen in these spectrum measurements at all and I even don't have the cleaning loop yet. I'm trying to pass on step by step so first thing is to find out how to generate a good 10 MHz signal and next thing will be that (digital?) phaselock needed to lock that on rubidium at suitable timing constant. Then there will be another stage to control LPRO's C-field with GPS, some diagnostics, power supplies, distribution amplifier etc... Lot's of work to do. Infact I had no idea how hard it is to get just a clean 10 Mhz... > Attenuating them by 20dB is easy if you need to suppress them much > further it gets more difficult. Yes that's the point I'm afraid with 10544. > Don't use a high Q bandpass filter as its phase shift tempco will be > relatively high. What do you think if I could find FM radio IF filter somewhere (10.7 MHz) and tune it to 10 MHz? I don't know if there's tunable filters available anymore because any new ones seems to be ceramic. But maybe from some old radio could have tunable one (wishful thinking in Finland, thanks to "recycling" of the electronics). -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 10:29:05 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:29:05 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce > > >> A more efficient buffer like a white emitter follower using 2 x npn + 1 >> x pnp would be best. >> If you want I can post such a circuit using BC546 + BC556 or similar. >> > > Yes if you have that kind of schematic I'd like to test it. It won't > take much time to do breadboard testing. I have BC547's and BC557's > ready in the shelf, all E12 resistor values are available but capasitors > and coils are not so easy; of course any standard values like 100n, 10n, > 22...33p etc. are available at a moment. Coils are most difficult > however LCR meter is available but I don't have any cores that might be > necessary to make coils for this purpose? > > I'll see if I can produce a schematic as a pdf file. I presume you can also obtain red LEDs? Can you obtain parts from Farnell or RS Components? >> This buffer needs to be located with 5cm or less of the OCXO connector >> unless you use capacitance cancellation techniques. >> > > Ok.. there was a "bottom PCB" used all my previous tests, which itself > has about 5 cm. trace before coaxial connector. I don't know where this > PCB is originally used. It included 12V regulator and some filtering. > But maybe i could get the signal directly from output pins without using > a coax at all, with just a pair of very short wires and take the OCXO as > close as breadboard as possible. > > That PCB or equivalent is typically used in counters that use the 10544A. That would simplify things considerably as you shouldn't need to tune out any capacitance. >> First you need to decide what output level you want: >> +7dBm? +13dBm? >> > > Many instuments seems to want as much as 1V input for external > reference. That seems odd because the level is so high that it will > cause a 10 MHz spurious peak easily. So I think the +13 dBm should be > enough. There will be some kind of distribution amplifier in final > design and I have no idea about it's gain (not selected any yet). But > let's assume it will have gain of 1:1. > > >> The how far do you need to suppress the 2nd and 3rd harmonics? >> > > There's no specification for these. But if we think about the > application which is to clean the LPRO's output signal it would be nice > to have at least same kind of harmonics performance that LRPO itself > has. It has some kind of lower grade crystal inside but I have no idea > maybe there are some filtering because the spectrum is fine: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/LPRO-3.PNG > > Some spurious on 50 MHz and below 150 MHz still present. > > >> You need to set some actual specs. >> > > I think good spec is that it has to clean the LPRO's output, not get it > worse. I know it's main purpose is rubidium noise cleaning, which is not > seen in these spectrum measurements at all and I even don't have the > cleaning loop yet. > Can easily reduce the distortion down to 50dB below the carrier. 80dB below the carrier is possible but requires a lot of effort and attention to detail. > I'm trying to pass on step by step so first thing is to find out how to > generate a good 10 MHz signal and next thing will be that (digital?) > phaselock needed to lock that on rubidium at suitable timing constant. > Then there will be another stage to control LPRO's C-field with GPS, > some diagnostics, power supplies, distribution amplifier etc... Lot's of > work to do. Infact I had no idea how hard it is to get just a clean 10 > Mhz... > > >> Attenuating them by 20dB is easy if you need to suppress them much >> further it gets more difficult. >> > > Yes that's the point I'm afraid with 10544. > > >> Don't use a high Q bandpass filter as its phase shift tempco will be >> relatively high. >> > > What do you think if I could find FM radio IF filter somewhere (10.7 > MHz) and tune it to 10 MHz? I don't know if there's tunable filters > available anymore because any new ones seems to be ceramic. But maybe > from some old radio could have tunable one (wishful thinking in Finland, > thanks to "recycling" of the electronics). > > Using a 10MHz bandpass filter isn't usually a good idea unless the temperature doesn't change too rapidly and the filtered output is phase locked to the stable frequency source. The phase shift tempco of the bandpass filter then isnt too critical as slow changes in the filter phase shift will be corrected by the phase lock loop. Even so you don't want too high a Q or the filtered signal amplitude will change too much over temperature. Bruce From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Mar 8 10:41:51 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 12:41:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> > I'll see if I can produce a schematic as a pdf file. > I presume you can also obtain red LEDs? LEDs are available ready in shelf... > Can you obtain parts from Farnell or RS Components? Yes I can. One design goal for the whole system is that all parts should be easily availale somewhere like Farnell, ELFA etc. distributors selling small amounts. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 11:00:14 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:00:14 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> I'll see if I can produce a schematic as a pdf file. >> I presume you can also obtain red LEDs? >> > > LEDs are available ready in shelf... > > >> Can you obtain parts from Farnell or RS Components? >> > > Yes I can. One design goal for the whole system is that all parts should > be easily availale somewhere like Farnell, ELFA etc. distributors > selling small amounts. > > Esa White emitter follower circuit attached. The LED ensures a temperature stable collector current for the npn common emitter device The 47 ohms in series with the output ensures stability with a capacitive load. Distortion of this circuit is lower than that of the 10544A. Some work is required - it should be OK but you will need to check that the circuit doesn't oscillate at VHF - can only go so far with spice. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: White emitter follower.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 19494 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090309/ff78cc99/attachment-0001.pdf From scifiscifi at sci.fi Sun Mar 8 13:21:20 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:21:20 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B3C650.1030100@sci.fi> > White emitter follower circuit attached. Ok and thanks, Bruce! I'll test that later. Now it's family time.. :) > Distortion of this circuit is lower than that of the 10544A. Ok it would then give the actual output spectrum of HP10544. Would you do the test with or without the 1000 ohm. termination before C1? The datasheet recommends the 1k termination but how with this kind of amplifier? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From didier at cox.net Sun Mar 8 14:47:31 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 09:47:31 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:48 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A > > Scott Newell wrote: > > At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: > > > > > >> I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. > >> Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and > then you > >> can head off to the online manual sites and grab the info you need > >> from the PDF files. > >> > > > > My 5345A has a 10544A. > > > > > Scott > > The 10MHz buffer is merely a cascade of 3 ECL line receivers. > > Bruce > Bruce, How much isolation can on expect to get from that kind of buffer? Didier From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Mar 8 16:02:53 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:02:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: <23A25E5CF69A40CF8741EDD619D7422C@pc52> References: <23A25E5CF69A40CF8741EDD619D7422C@pc52> Message-ID: <49B3EC2D.9070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> Tom Van Baak skrev: > See: http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-temp/ > > Hi Mark, > > This is very interesting work that you're doing with Thunderbolt > DS1620 temperature sensors. I hope you stick with it. I agree > with Said about the double bind idea. > > I worry too that your TBolts are remembering something of the > past in spite of the hardware changes you make for each new > run. Do you do a full factory reset each time? And then let the > unit "re-learn" for several hours, or maybe several days? Do > we really know how or what it is learning and how that affects > the response to temperature? > > > Having tried tempco measurements in the past I have several > concerns about mythology. It's really hard to get this right and > even harder when you don't know what "smart" algorithms are > inside the box you're trying to test. The theory here is that we do have a smart algorithm. Under the assumption that we have a smart algorithm comes that we want to give that algorithm a decent chance by using the higher resolution variant of the DS1620. This also makes testing more troublesome. > In this situation, it seems to me the main thing about temperature > is not temperature at all, but the *rate* at which the temperature > changes. > > In that case, even careful cycling of room temperature every day > or cycling temperature inside a special chamber every hour will > not give you the real story -- because in both cases the focus is > on varying the temperature; not the rate at which the temperature > is changing. > > Compounding the problem is that different components in the > system will react to temperature at different rates. The DS1620 > is plastic and may react quickly. The OCXO is metal and will > react slowly. Who knows what additional component's tempco > are relevant to the final 10 MHz output. Some may overreact > at first and then settle down. True... but. Consider that the OCXO and the temperature sensor has time-constants to them. You can now model their heat response-time through equalent RC links (in reality you have many of these lumped up, this is a thought model). As long as the temperature risetime is much slower than the OCXO and tempsensors time-constants, the risetime is dominated by the incident wave. A classic formula for this is: _________________ / 2 2 | t = \ / t + t total \/ signal input for t_signal >> t_input this becomes t = t total signal Signal in this case is heatchanges due to our main heater 8 lighmin away. Another thing I want to point out is that metal is a very good heat conductor where as plastic is a very poor heat conductor. One has to be carefull to confuse that with heat capacitivity, the ability to keep heat. We use metal flanges to remove heat from components, not plastic ones. The high conductivity of metal will make any temperature change move fairly fast throughout. This is why it is hard to solder on ground planes or metal-chassis, the heat at the solderpoint distributes quickly where as soldering on some local point on a PCB is not that hard as the plastic of the PCB is a relatively poor heat conductor. So, you can expect that the metal can of the OCXO reacts fairly quickly and the temperature sensor is a thad slow. This also matches exercises we have done by using a fan to do forced air convection tests on OCXO and tempsensor. Putting a *plastic* hood over it significantly lowered the risetime and the consequence is that the lower risetime allowed the tempsensor inside the OCXO to sense the change and react to it. This introduces a third time constant, the time-constant of the OCXO control. The effect of using a hood or not was significant. The change of frequency shape was distinct and for the measurement interval we looked at the phase drift was about 1/3 for this simple addition. Lessons learned: * Temperature transients may expose OCXO time constants * Passive isolation may aid in reducing gradient time constants The OCXO Oven control really just helps with slow-rate changes and may span a high temperature range, but not quickly. Passive isolation helps smoothing out transients. For transients will heat capacitivity be an issue and multilayer isolation/capacitivity will acts as higher order filters. > I guess in the ideal world you'd want to do a "sweep" where you > go through several cycles of temperature extreme at rates varying > from, say, one cycle per minute all the way up one cycle per day. > > It seems to me you'd end up with some kind of spectrum, in which > tempco is a function of temp-cycle-rate. Has anyone seen analysis > like this? To some degree yes... see above. > For example, I'd guess that most GPSDO have low sensitivity to wild > temperature cycles every second -- because of its own thermal mass. Actually, if they sit in a forced air environment, they will change temperature pretty quick because their metal cover will conduct away the heat quite efficiently. Thermal mass is not a great measure unless you also consider the thermal conductivity, they together will describe the heat time constant. If you put your GPSDO in a "heat pocket" and not put it flush to some metal surface but rather use plastic spacers you will be in a much better place from transients and the turbolence of convection (forced or not). > And I bet most GPSDO have low sensitivity to wild temperature swings > every few hours -- because the OCXO easily handles slow changes > like this well. It's for time scales in between those two that you either > hit sweet spots or get very confused and react just opposite of what > you should. You just don't react quick enough. Building OCXOs that would have a balance for it would turn up rather large. Our OSA 8600/8607 uses a Dewar flask embedded in foam inside the metal chassi and then has a metal chassi inside of that. The outer shell is not temperature controlled but becomes notably warm anyway. Your wine-cooler 8607 should have a foam frapping and not stand metal-onto-metal to become more efficient. Regardless. Temperature transients is best handled through isolation filters. Temperature gradients is reduces as well if done properly. Unless an external temperature probe is thermally well connected to the OCXO it is not as useful and it can certainly not aid in anything but slow rate changes. This would become a TOCXO construct. A thermally well tied temperature probe could be used for transient suppression if thinking about it, as the speed of compensation through the EFC input is very high. For it to work one has to model the transient response properly. Basically one has to process the signal through a model filter. This could be done in analogue or digital. > I'm thinking another testing approach is to varying the temperature > somewhat randomly; with random temperature *amplitude* along > with random temperature *rate*. Using this temperature input, and > measured GPSDO phase or frequency output, you might be able > to do some fancy math and come up with a transfer function that > tells the whole story; correlation; gain and lag as a function of rate, > or something like that. I'll do some reading on this, or perhaps > someone on the list can fill in the details? This can be done using MLS sequences and the cross-correlation would produce the impulse response of the heat-transfer mechanism. The actual heat difference used does not have to be that large actually, as you aim to establish the impulse response at this stage. With a detailed enough impulse response you can then locate the poles and zeros of the filter. You can use a transistor and a resistor (say a 2N3055 with some suitable resistance) to be modulated by the MLS sequence and then do frequency or phase measurements synchronously with the MLS sequence. The rate of the MLS sequence will through Nyqvist theorem put an upper limit to the highest rate you can measure. Here is a golden case where "smart" frequency measurements should be avoided as their filtering would become included in the transient response. It could be compensated naturally, but would only confuse the issue. The amplitude of temperature-shifts will of course become a frequency resolution factor. However, a short measurement period at high temperature shifts could work, but running over longer times natural temperature changes as well as aging needs to be suppressed and then you need to average over longer times and running at slightly less amplitude on modulation could be tolerated. Temperature changes and drift could be cancled from the measurement sequence prior to cross-correlation to reduce impact. This can be done through normal frequency and drift predicting and removal. Use of MLS sequences to characterize impulse responses is a well established technique. The two major limitations is usually too low modulation rate and too short MLS sequence besides the obvious one of dynamic. Calibration of output and input stages can remove their impact. > I say all of this -- because of an accident in my lab today. Have a > careful look at these preliminary plots and tell me what you think. > It shows anything but a nice one-to-one positive linear relationship > between ambient temperature and GPSDO output. > > http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-temp/ It looks kind of typical. The OCXO performs a non-perfect diffrential task in the heat scale, its limited gain will make the long-term uncompensated. Look at the second plot. As the temperature rises drastically the phase dips dramatically. The oscillations display similar risetimes and thus is let through. For me this is somewhat of an expected impulse response. The GPSDO attempts to steer it into action, so that why it does not look as the full integrated frequency response as one would expect from an OCXO free-wheeling. Cheers, Magnus From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Mar 8 16:25:45 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 17:25:45 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B3F189.5070604@rubidium.dyndns.org> >>> Don't use a high Q bandpass filter as its phase shift tempco will be >>> relatively high. >>> >> What do you think if I could find FM radio IF filter somewhere (10.7 >> MHz) and tune it to 10 MHz? I don't know if there's tunable filters >> available anymore because any new ones seems to be ceramic. But maybe >> from some old radio could have tunable one (wishful thinking in Finland, >> thanks to "recycling" of the electronics). >> >> > Using a 10MHz bandpass filter isn't usually a good idea unless the > temperature doesn't change too rapidly and the filtered output is phase > locked to the stable frequency source. > The phase shift tempco of the bandpass filter then isnt too critical as > slow changes in the filter phase shift will be corrected by the phase > lock loop. > Even so you don't want too high a Q or the filtered signal amplitude > will change too much over temperature. You should be able to lower the effective Q value by use of external serial or parallel resistor. A parallel resistor will add some capacitance, but detuning the frequency should also require some additional capacitance so it should work fine in combination. Cheers, Magnus From GandalfG8 at aol.com Sun Mar 8 16:49:36 2009 From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 12:49:36 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt OCXO Message-ID: I'm not sure if this has been asked before but don't recall seeing it, does anybody have a general specification please for the crystal oscillator used in the Thunderbolt? I'm interested in the later one, badged Trimble, rather than the earlier Piezo version, as I've recently bought one of the small modules from Ebay that contains one of these oscillators, plus some control circuitry to drive the EFC pin, and would like to know what to expect of it as a stand alone unit. regards Nigel GM8PZR From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 17:40:52 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:40:52 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The test that I did was meant to reflect how a typical user would be using a Thunderbolt... sitting out in free air on a piece of poly foam, covered by a cardboard box to provide a little isolation from environmental transients. Tbolt internal temperature changes were around 3 deg C per day and 0.3C per hour. My chosen figure-of-merit for the tests was how much the PPS signal changed (as reported by the Thunderbolt message) over an hour. The unit had run continuously for several months. Before I swapped the temp sensor chip, I made several runs where at 11:00 AM I put it into manual holdover mode and started the log. I recorded its self-measured data for around 23 hours, stopped the log, put it into normal operation mode for an hour. Next, I shut it down and swapped the temp sensor chip. This took about 10 minutes. I then restarted it, let it stabilize for a day, and did a factory reset. I let it run for four days in GPS locked mode and four days with the 23 hour holdover mode cycles. This (hopefully) gave it some time to learn about the new temp sensor. Next I repeated the "official" 23 hour holdover test runs. The average of the 1 hour PPS holdover deviations with the newer low res temp sensor was 1.73 uS per hour. The average of the 1 hour PPS deviations with the older high res sensor was 0.82 uS per hour. Yes, it would be nice to put the unit into an environmental chamber and put it through its paces and discover all sorts of neat things about it. I was more interested in how the change in the DS1620 temperature sensor chip affected the units in a way that I might actually see in the way that I use them. I have already swapped the temp sensor chip three times in this unit (original E2 chip, another E2 chip, and the D1 chip) and don't really want to risk damaging it with two more swaps (back to E2 and then D1). Tests on a single unit are hardly conclusive, but it appears that you can double your holdover performance by using the older DS1620 chip. Also, by looking at the DAC and TEMP plots the temp sensor chip readings ARE used in generating the DAC voltage in GPS locked mode... so I am assuming that the performance also would be improved in GPS locked mode (but by how much and how to test that have yet to be determined). ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme From SAIDJACK at aol.com Sun Mar 8 19:02:28 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 15:02:28 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor Message-ID: Hi Tom, Holrum, nice plots, do you have access to the Thunderbolt EFC over that day? Holrum mentioned: "Also, by looking at the DAC and TEMP plots the temp sensor chip readings ARE used in generating the DAC voltage in GPS locked mode... " Is there any chance to post these plots? thanks, Said In a message dated 3/7/2009 21:16:04 Pacific Daylight Time, tvb at LeapSecond.com writes: I say all of this -- because of an accident in my lab today. Have a careful look at these preliminary plots and tell me what you think. It shows anything but a nice one-to-one positive linear relationship between ambient temperature and GPSDO output. http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/tbolt-temp/ /tvb From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 19:55:33 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 08:55:33 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3C650.1030100@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B3C650.1030100@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B422B5.8030502@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> White emitter follower circuit attached. >> > > Ok and thanks, Bruce! > I'll test that later. Now it's family time.. :) > > >> Distortion of this circuit is lower than that of the 10544A. >> > > Ok it would then give the actual output spectrum of HP10544. Would you > do the test with or without the 1000 ohm. termination before C1? The > datasheet recommends the 1k termination but how with this kind of amplifier? > > Esa The emitter follower output stage of the 10544A should be fine driving the higher input impedance of this buffer without any external resistor to bring the load down to 1k. N.B., since the 10544A has an output coupling capacitor the input coupling cap shown on the amplifier schematic isn't required. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 20:04:00 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 09:04:00 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> Didier wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths >> Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 8:48 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A >> >> Scott Newell wrote: >> >>> At 07:41 PM 3/7/2009, Tom Van Baak wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> I know *late* model 5245L counters used the 10544A oscillator. >>>> Perhaps others in the group can provide other examples and >>>> >> then you >> >>>> can head off to the online manual sites and grab the info you need >>>> from the PDF files. >>>> >>>> >>> My 5345A has a 10544A. >>> >>> >>> >> Scott >> >> The 10MHz buffer is merely a cascade of 3 ECL line receivers. >> >> Bruce >> >> > > Bruce, > > How much isolation can on expect to get from that kind of buffer? > > Didier > > > Didier The 5345A buffer is actually a CC stage feeding a CB stage with a CE (with series feedback) output stage. Total reverse isolation will probably be somewhere in the vicinity of 100dB or so. However coupling via the bias circuitry will reduce this somewhat. Cascading 3 ECL line receivers (longtailed pair plus output emitter follower buffers) in a single package as in the 5370A should achieve a reverse isolation of 60dB or so per stage, but package parasitics and coupling through the internal bias regulator etc will limit this to a somewhat lower value. Bruce From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 20:41:24 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 20:41:24 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Said, Attached is a screen dump of a run that John Miles did. You can see that the envelope of the DAC voltage follows the temperature curve (inversely). On a finer scale the DAC voltage follows the PPS error. This plot was done with the unit locked to GPS. I believe the time scale is 10 secs/pixel (1 hr per major horizontal division). ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ex2.gif Type: image/gif Size: 56086 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090308/0341f36d/attachment-0001.gif From dansawyer at earthlink.net Sun Mar 8 21:06:45 2009 From: dansawyer at earthlink.net (Dan Sawyer) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 14:06:45 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS signal coherance question Message-ID: <49B43365.1080409@earthlink.net> This is somewhat of a hypothetical question: If two identical GPS systems, assume Jupiters, and assume to be operating correctly, are configured with identical antenna systems in as close proximity as possible, will the time output signals be 'coherant'. I realize they will not be in sync. However within the digital signal generation ns jitter parameters will they be coherent? Thanks - Dan From pvince at theiet.org Sun Mar 8 21:21:20 2009 From: pvince at theiet.org (Peter Vince) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 21:21:20 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt Hz/Volt setting Message-ID: <39482.1236547280@uk2.net> On the same page of tboltmon.exe where the disciplining time constant and damping can be set (menu-bar Setup, Disciplining), there is a section in the top right where the EFC parameters are set. By default these are -5.0 Hz/volt, min voltage -5.0 volts, max voltage +5.0 volts. Out of curiosity, I decided to find out what the actual Hz/volt value was. My Thunderbolt is one of the Time Nuts special offer batch supplied by TVB, Revision E, 02-13-04 (other numbers on the label are 28609017 and A002206.G1 I presume one of those is a serial number?) By manually setting the DAC voltage plus and minus 0.1 of a volt, I found my unit only changed by 3.17 Hz/volt. (I also checked for linearity by setting plus and minus 1 volt, with a very similar result.) I presume the unit will work better with the correct value, so have saved that, and will watch to see. Has anyone else experimented with this? Peter From holrum at hotmail.com Sun Mar 8 21:42:45 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 21:42:45 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt DAC vs temperature In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In holdover mode, my Thunderbolt seems to vary the DAC voltage around 100 uV for a 150 millidegree C change. For slowly varying temperature changes the DAC seems to lag the temperature by around 60 seconds. More radical temperature changes (like a spritz of freeze spray) get to the DAC in less than 10 seconds. The Thunderbolt filters the temperature sensor readings in firmware. The filter seems to exhibit a very fast attack and a slow decay. A glitch in the temperature readings (like when the sensor is on the edge between two 0.5C basic resolution raw reading levels) shows up as an instantaneous spike in the temperature plot followed a slow decay back to the proper level. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme From didier at cox.net Sun Mar 8 22:14:44 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 17:14:44 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a contribution, feel free to speak. Bruce, What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier (particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the input with a spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be something wrong with that technique, it sounds too simple. The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect the operating point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input without such signal may not give a true result. Didier From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 22:28:30 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:28:30 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B4468E.2080006@xtra.co.nz> Didier wrote: > > This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a contribution, > feel free to speak. > > Bruce, > > What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier > (particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is > expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? > > Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the input with a > spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be something wrong > with that technique, it sounds too simple. > > The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect the operating > point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input without such > signal may not give a true result. > > Didier > Didier Network analysers like the Agilent E5071C can be limited by the fixture used, to around S22 (fixture) ~ -120dB@ 10MHz. In principle one just feeds a signal into the output and measures the resultant signal that appears at the input. However when attempting to measure reverse isolation of 120dB or more cable leakage, leakage from connectors (non screw mount connectors like BNC can be quite leaky) need to be considered. Also if one isn't careful with the grounding system this can limit the measured attenuation. Leakage from the test source also needs to be considered. The HP journal article on achieving 120dB attenuation with an attenuator is informative on some of the issues involved. The other major consideration is that unless one is making the measurements within a shielded room the ambient RF signals may make such measurements difficult. Bruce From mikes at flatsurface.com Sun Mar 8 22:42:50 2009 From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 18:42:50 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <20090308224252.3ADDC1165C1@hamburg.alientech.net> At 06:14 PM 3/8/2009, Didier wrote... >What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier Now I'm curious. What would "forward isolation" be in an amplifier? From johnday at wordsnimages.com Sun Mar 8 22:47:07 2009 From: johnday at wordsnimages.com (John Day) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 18:47:07 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: At 06:14 PM 3/8/2009, Didier wrote: > >This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a contribution, >feel free to speak. > >Bruce, > >What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier >(particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is >expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? > >Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the input with a >spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be something wrong >with that technique, it sounds too simple. No, not really. How else would you measure it? Reverse isolation is basically the reverse gain - S12 - of the amplifier. How does a VNA measure S12? Essentially inject a signal at port 2 and see how much comes out of port 1. If you want to get so picky as to determine S12 with a signal in the forward direction then you have a problem. Because the forward gain - S21 - is going to effectively swamp the signal going the other way. So this is almost impossible to measure if the signals are at the same frequency. In this case measure the S-parameters of the amplifier in its 'normal ' configuration, then de-embed the S-parameters of the device. Assuming the device is the only non-linear element you are dealing with then from the S12 & S22 values you can also figure out how the device reacts in the reverse direction. Then if you don't mind solving a large matrix you can figure out how the device might react to passing a signal in both directions. The reality is however that if the device is within its linear range, which it is likely to be if you want to distribute a reference or some such, the reverse behaviour of the well terminated amplifier will approach the nominal S12 value. The difficult part is to determine what happens when the amplifier is not nicely terminated! John >The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect the operating >point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input without such >signal may not give a true result. > >Didier > > > > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG. >Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: >3/7/2009 6:43 PM From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Mar 8 22:48:23 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:48:23 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B44B37.8020001@rubidium.dyndns.org> Didier skrev: > > This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a contribution, > feel free to speak. > > Bruce, > > What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier > (particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is > expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? > > Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the input with a > spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be something wrong > with that technique, it sounds too simple. > > The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect the operating > point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input without such > signal may not give a true result. If you are concerned about that issue, then you can apply a signal of a different frequency on the input and then use your network analyser to sweep the range. To be able to sweep the full range apply two different frequencies so you can make partial sweeps of the other range. Otherwise the buffer amplifier should see the 50 Ohm termination of the network analysers as you run the buffer amplifier in reverse. I suspect that isolational amplifiers often is analysed in sections. If you have -120 dB reverse gain it can be a bit hard to measure. Notice that a network analyser is automatically synchronous to the source, which makes detection of modulated frequency more sensitive. Cheers, Magnus From jra at febo.com Sun Mar 8 22:48:58 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 18:48:58 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp> <49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz> <532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B44B5A.3050805@febo.com> I've been learning a little bit about this lately from my friend who is an Agilent network analyzer apps engineer. He tells me that "hot S12" tests can be done with modern network analyzers. The key is being able to offset the frequencies enough so the front end of the analyzer doesn't get creamed. For example, you put +10dBm at 11 MHz on the input, and +10dBm at 10 MHz on the output. Then measure S12 using a narrow bandwidth in the analyzer. Hopefully the DUT frequency response is flat enough for that to be meaningful. In any event, it's a challenging measurement. John ---- Didier said the following on 03/08/2009 06:14 PM: > > This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a contribution, > feel free to speak. > > Bruce, > > What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier > (particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is > expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? > > Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the input with a > spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be something wrong > with that technique, it sounds too simple. > > The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect the operating > point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input without such > signal may not give a true result. > > Didier > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From didier at cox.net Sun Mar 8 23:05:40 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 18:05:40 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com><49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp><49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz><532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: As long as one is not trying to measure extremely low signals (or extremely high isolation), the conventional method works, and I have used it many times, I am not sure that the method would scale when dealing with very high levels of isolation. I certainly would not trust a conventional VNA for isolation of 100dB or more, simply because such isolation is difficult to achieve in an instrument that is supposed to be able to switch its source and receivers between the two ports. The HP 8722D which we use at work is only specified with 100dB dynamic range, and I am not sure how that applies to reverse isolation. Using a slightly offset test frequency while driving the device at its normal operating frequency would only work when using a spectrum analyzer as receiver. Most VNAs don't have the capability of rejecting large signals close in, and separating the frequencies too much would make the test invalid with a narrow band amplifier. I have used that method to measure the hot output VSWR of a TWT amplifier for instance (that was interesting). Of course, the spectrum analyzer does not give you the phase, but it's better than nothing. Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Day > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:47 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation > > At 06:14 PM 3/8/2009, Didier wrote: > > > >This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a > >contribution, feel free to speak. > > > >Bruce, > > > >What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an > amplifier > >(particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is > >expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? > > > >Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the > input with > >a spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be > >something wrong with that technique, it sounds too simple. > > No, not really. How else would you measure it? Reverse > isolation is basically the reverse gain - S12 - of the > amplifier. How does a VNA measure S12? Essentially inject a > signal at port 2 and see how much comes out of port 1. > > If you want to get so picky as to determine S12 with a signal > in the forward direction then you have a problem. Because the > forward gain - > S21 - is going to effectively swamp the signal going the other way. > So this is almost impossible to measure if the signals are at > the same frequency. In this case measure the S-parameters of > the amplifier in its 'normal ' configuration, then de-embed > the S-parameters of the device. Assuming the device is the > only non-linear element you are dealing with then from the > S12 & S22 values you can also figure out how the device > reacts in the reverse direction. > > Then if you don't mind solving a large matrix you can figure > out how the device might react to passing a signal in both > directions. The reality is however that if the device is > within its linear range, which it is likely to be if you want > to distribute a reference or some such, the reverse behaviour > of the well terminated amplifier will approach the nominal > S12 value. The difficult part is to determine what happens > when the amplifier is not nicely terminated! > > John > > > >The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect > the operating > >point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input > without such > >signal may not give a true result. > > > >Didier > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > >https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >and follow the instructions there. > > > > > >-- > >No virus found in this incoming message. > >Checked by AVG. > >Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: > >3/7/2009 6:43 PM > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, > go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG. > Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release > Date: 3/7/2009 6:43 PM > From didier at cox.net Sun Mar 8 23:07:45 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 18:07:45 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <20090308224252.3ADDC1165C1@hamburg.alientech.net> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com><49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp><49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz><532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> <20090308224252.3ADDC1165C1@hamburg.alientech.net> Message-ID: <7C122306E8F64640A9BC5C65016C6564@d400> Probably does not mean a lot for an amplifier, but it would for a mixer :) Generic terms need sometimes to be put in the proper context :) In fact, it's a negative number, now that I think of it :) Didier KO4BB > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Mike S > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:43 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Cc: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation > > At 06:14 PM 3/8/2009, Didier wrote... > >What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an amplifier > > Now I'm curious. What would "forward isolation" be in an amplifier? > From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Sun Mar 8 23:18:07 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 12:18:07 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com><49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp><49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz><532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B4522F.3070506@xtra.co.nz> Didier NIST have measured reverse isolation as high as -144dB @ 10MHz for one of their isolation amplifier designs but they gave no measurement system details. Bruce Didier Juges wrote: > As long as one is not trying to measure extremely low signals (or extremely > high isolation), the conventional method works, and I have used it many > times, I am not sure that the method would scale when dealing with very high > levels of isolation. > > I certainly would not trust a conventional VNA for isolation of 100dB or > more, simply because such isolation is difficult to achieve in an instrument > that is supposed to be able to switch its source and receivers between the > two ports. > > The HP 8722D which we use at work is only specified with 100dB dynamic > range, and I am not sure how that applies to reverse isolation. > > Using a slightly offset test frequency while driving the device at its > normal operating frequency would only work when using a spectrum analyzer as > receiver. Most VNAs don't have the capability of rejecting large signals > close in, and separating the frequencies too much would make the test > invalid with a narrow band amplifier. I have used that method to measure the > hot output VSWR of a TWT amplifier for instance (that was interesting). Of > course, the spectrum analyzer does not give you the phase, but it's better > than nothing. > > Didier KO4BB > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Day >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 5:47 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation >> >> At 06:14 PM 3/8/2009, Didier wrote: >> >>> This question is directed at Bruce, but if anyone else has a >>> contribution, feel free to speak. >>> >>> Bruce, >>> >>> What is the best way to measure the reverse isolation of an >>> >> amplifier >> >>> (particularly a buffer amplifier for a 10 MHz reference), when it is >>> expected to be in the order of 100 dB or more? >>> >>> Feeding the output with a known signal and measuring at the >>> >> input with >> >>> a spectrum analyzer comes to mind, but I am sure there must be >>> something wrong with that technique, it sounds too simple. >>> >> No, not really. How else would you measure it? Reverse >> isolation is basically the reverse gain - S12 - of the >> amplifier. How does a VNA measure S12? Essentially inject a >> signal at port 2 and see how much comes out of port 1. >> >> If you want to get so picky as to determine S12 with a signal >> in the forward direction then you have a problem. Because the >> forward gain - >> S21 - is going to effectively swamp the signal going the other way. >> So this is almost impossible to measure if the signals are at >> the same frequency. In this case measure the S-parameters of >> the amplifier in its 'normal ' configuration, then de-embed >> the S-parameters of the device. Assuming the device is the >> only non-linear element you are dealing with then from the >> S12 & S22 values you can also figure out how the device >> reacts in the reverse direction. >> >> Then if you don't mind solving a large matrix you can figure >> out how the device might react to passing a signal in both >> directions. The reality is however that if the device is >> within its linear range, which it is likely to be if you want >> to distribute a reference or some such, the reverse behaviour >> of the well terminated amplifier will approach the nominal >> S12 value. The difficult part is to determine what happens >> when the amplifier is not nicely terminated! >> >> John >> >> >> >>> The presence of a signal at the input (or not) may affect >>> >> the operating >> >>> point of the amplifier, so measuring from output to input >>> >> without such >> >>> signal may not give a true result. >>> >>> Didier >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG. >>> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release Date: >>> 3/7/2009 6:43 PM >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, >> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG. >> Version: 7.5.557 / Virus Database: 270.11.9/1989 - Release >> Date: 3/7/2009 6:43 PM >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Sun Mar 8 23:23:18 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:23:18 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52><200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com><49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz><7C8224E33A44457CA83019901D934896@didierhp><49B424B0.60805@xtra.co.nz><532301D980EC45E1937094CFCE18A40E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B45366.2080300@rubidium.dyndns.org> Didier Juges skrev: > As long as one is not trying to measure extremely low signals (or extremely > high isolation), the conventional method works, and I have used it many > times, I am not sure that the method would scale when dealing with very high > levels of isolation. > > I certainly would not trust a conventional VNA for isolation of 100dB or > more, simply because such isolation is difficult to achieve in an instrument > that is supposed to be able to switch its source and receivers between the > two ports. > > The HP 8722D which we use at work is only specified with 100dB dynamic > range, and I am not sure how that applies to reverse isolation. Notice that the VNA does not have to handle all the dynamics by itself. You could use an external output amp which can be made sufficiently isolated from the input side as well as a LNA to gain the receiver side. By measuring the amps gain in a calibration setup you can get correct measures in the total setup. If you have a 60 dB of total amplifier gain the VNA would see a remaining 60 dB dynamics on its output-to-input. That is more along the lines of what we trust. What remains an issue is how we ensure more than 120 dB isolation between input and output of the DUT and also the output of measurement amp and input. I agree with you that I would not entierly trust the VNA for 120 dB... directly. Additional amp stages near the DUT can give the VNA dynamic range the necessary boost. > Using a slightly offset test frequency while driving the device at its > normal operating frequency would only work when using a spectrum analyzer as > receiver. Most VNAs don't have the capability of rejecting large signals > close in, and separating the frequencies too much would make the test > invalid with a narrow band amplifier. I have used that method to measure the > hot output VSWR of a TWT amplifier for instance (that was interesting). Of > course, the spectrum analyzer does not give you the phase, but it's better > than nothing. Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the amplitude of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in question. My VNA allows me to change filters as well as integration time. So, I agree that not all VNAs is well suited for it and that is indeed a good warning. Cheers, Magnus From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Sun Mar 8 23:41:17 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:41:17 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <49B45366.2080300@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: > > > Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the amplitude > of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in question. My VNA allows me > to change filters as well as integration time. And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's receiver? You might have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide open, then the dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to meet. Consider a 30 dB gain amplifier claiming 120dB reverse isolation.. You put in -30dBm and get 0dBm out in the forward direction. Meanwhile, you inject 0dBm into the output of the amplifier (from the VNA) and you expect to see -120dBm appearing at the input. Depending on how good the directional coupler/bridge is that feed the port 1 reflected power receiver, you might be facing measuring a -120dBm signal next to a -30dBm signal, which is challenging... Assuming the DUT is linear (hah!) one could just apply load with different reflection coefficients to it when measuring S11. This might even be harder, though... With -120dBm reverse isolation, you're basically looking at seeing the effect of adding a coherent signal 90 dB down to the signal you're already measuring for S11. That's not going to result in a huge change in amplitude or phase (e.g. About 1 part in 1E4 or 1E5).. Maybe for this list, though.. Measuring phase shifts of 1E-5 radian.. Walk in the park, as it were. Jim From sar10538 at gmail.com Sun Mar 8 23:57:35 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 12:57:35 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: <49B3EC2D.9070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> References: <23A25E5CF69A40CF8741EDD619D7422C@pc52> <49B3EC2D.9070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903081657t216c5ffaw7b89766840ea9ea7@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/9 Magnus Danielson : > So, you can expect that the metal can of the OCXO reacts fairly quickly > and the temperature sensor is a thad slow. This also matches exercises > we have done by using a fan to do forced air convection tests on OCXO > and tempsensor. Putting a *plastic* hood over it significantly lowered > the risetime and the consequence is that the lower risetime allowed the > tempsensor inside the OCXO to sense the change and react to it. This > introduces a third time constant, the time-constant of the OCXO control. > The effect of using a hood or not was significant. The change of > frequency shape was distinct and for the measurement interval we looked > at the phase drift was about 1/3 for this simple addition. So would boxing in an ocxo with something like polystyrene foam improve the tc of the unit? Thinking about this it is a stage towards having a double oven. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Mon Mar 9 00:13:32 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 01:13:32 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903081657t216c5ffaw7b89766840ea9ea7@mail.gmail.com> References: <23A25E5CF69A40CF8741EDD619D7422C@pc52> <49B3EC2D.9070008@rubidium.dyndns.org> <1231b6a80903081657t216c5ffaw7b89766840ea9ea7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B45F2C.7060502@rubidium.dyndns.org> Steve Rooke skrev: > 2009/3/9 Magnus Danielson : > >> So, you can expect that the metal can of the OCXO reacts fairly quickly >> and the temperature sensor is a thad slow. This also matches exercises >> we have done by using a fan to do forced air convection tests on OCXO >> and tempsensor. Putting a *plastic* hood over it significantly lowered >> the risetime and the consequence is that the lower risetime allowed the >> tempsensor inside the OCXO to sense the change and react to it. This >> introduces a third time constant, the time-constant of the OCXO control. >> The effect of using a hood or not was significant. The change of >> frequency shape was distinct and for the measurement interval we looked >> at the phase drift was about 1/3 for this simple addition. > > So would boxing in an ocxo with something like polystyrene foam > improve the tc of the unit? Thinking about this it is a stage towards > having a double oven. Yes, it is a step towards a double oven. Regardless of how many oven stages you have, letting the outermost oven be too unisolated will partly defeat it, which is somewhat my point here. There are problems with too much isolation too. For an oven to work it needs dynamics in both directions, so it actually needs to loose some of the heat in order to handle the situation when the outside is quite hot. The trick here is just to get the dynamics time constants down, but maintaining sufficient cooling load. Cheers, Magnus From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 00:58:05 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 13:58:05 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> Lux, James P wrote: >> Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the amplitude >> of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in question. My VNA allows me >> to change filters as well as integration time. >> > > And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's receiver? You might > have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide open, then the > dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to meet. > > Consider a 30 dB gain amplifier claiming 120dB reverse isolation.. > > You put in -30dBm and get 0dBm out in the forward direction. Meanwhile, you > inject 0dBm into the output of the amplifier (from the VNA) and you expect > to see -120dBm appearing at the input. Depending on how good the > directional coupler/bridge is that feed the port 1 reflected power receiver, > you might be facing measuring a -120dBm signal next to a -30dBm signal, > which is challenging... > > Assuming the DUT is linear (hah!) one could just apply load with different > reflection coefficients to it when measuring S11. This might even be > harder, though... With -120dBm reverse isolation, you're basically looking > at seeing the effect of adding a coherent signal 90 dB down to the signal > you're already measuring for S11. That's not going to result in a huge > change in amplitude or phase (e.g. About 1 part in 1E4 or 1E5).. > > Maybe for this list, though.. Measuring phase shifts of 1E-5 radian.. Walk > in the park, as it were. > > Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Jim Its even more challenging when the isolation amplifier has a nominal gain of 0dB coupled with a reverse isolation of 120dB or more. In this case one would be looking at measuring phase shifts on the order of 1urad or less. In this case one could try applying say a +10dBm signal to the input, modulate the load reflection coefficient and look for a modulation frequency related sideband at the input port. Bruce From djl at montana.com Mon Mar 9 01:47:42 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 19:47:42 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. Don Bruce Griffiths > Lux, James P wrote: >>> Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the >>> amplitude >>> of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in question. My VNA allows me >>> to change filters as well as integration time. >>> >> >> And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's receiver? You >> might >> have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide open, then >> the >> dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to meet. >> >> Consider a 30 dB gain amplifier claiming 120dB reverse isolation.. >> >> You put in -30dBm and get 0dBm out in the forward direction. Meanwhile, >> you >> inject 0dBm into the output of the amplifier (from the VNA) and you >> expect >> to see -120dBm appearing at the input. Depending on how good the >> directional coupler/bridge is that feed the port 1 reflected power >> receiver, >> you might be facing measuring a -120dBm signal next to a -30dBm signal, >> which is challenging... >> >> Assuming the DUT is linear (hah!) one could just apply load with >> different >> reflection coefficients to it when measuring S11. This might even be >> harder, though... With -120dBm reverse isolation, you're basically >> looking >> at seeing the effect of adding a coherent signal 90 dB down to the >> signal >> you're already measuring for S11. That's not going to result in a huge >> change in amplitude or phase (e.g. About 1 part in 1E4 or 1E5).. >> >> Maybe for this list, though.. Measuring phase shifts of 1E-5 radian.. >> Walk >> in the park, as it were. >> >> Jim >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > Jim > > Its even more challenging when the isolation amplifier has a nominal > gain of 0dB coupled with a reverse isolation of 120dB or more. > In this case one would be looking at measuring phase shifts on the order > of 1urad or less. > > In this case one could try applying say a +10dBm signal to the input, > modulate the load reflection coefficient and look for a modulation > frequency related sideband at the input port. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov Mon Mar 9 04:03:38 2009 From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P) Date: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 21:03:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Message-ID: You?re thinking that the fiber optic transmitter and receiver pair provide good reverse isolation? Maybe.. At least you could separate them by 100s of meters, so leakage isn't as big an issue. But what you gain in isolation, you might lose in other uncertainties. TANSTAAFL Jim On 3/8/09 6:47 PM, "Don Latham" wrote: > Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. > Don > > Bruce Griffiths >> Lux, James P wrote: >>>> Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the >>>> amplitude >>>> of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in question. My VNA allows me >>>> to change filters as well as integration time. >>>> >>> >>> And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's receiver? You >>> might >>> have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide open, then >>> the >>> dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to meet. From SAIDJACK at aol.com Mon Mar 9 04:20:35 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 00:20:35 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor Message-ID: Hi Holrum, thanks for sending the plot. It's tough to see on this plot with all that noise. To see how the relationship really works, the unit should be in holdover.. Would you have a plot of EFC versus temp in holdover? thanks, Said In a message dated 3/8/2009 13:42:41 Pacific Daylight Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: Hello Said, Attached is a screen dump of a run that John Miles did. You can see that the envelope of the DAC voltage follows the temperature curve (inversely). On a finer scale the DAC voltage follows the PPS error. This plot was done with the unit locked to GPS. I believe the time scale is 10 secs/pixel (1 hr per major horizontal division). From hmurray at megapathdsl.net Mon Mar 9 07:27:07 2009 From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 00:27:07 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: Message from Neville Michie of "Thu, 05 Mar 2009 19:35:34 +1100." <700EE3E5-A812-4268-8250-BFC21F5E29C1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> > Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the > American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his > basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each > other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the > gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have > synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified > as the first time nut. It's on page 67-68. When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. It may take an hour... Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. From rdarlington at gmail.com Mon Mar 9 12:03:02 2009 From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 06:03:02 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> References: <700EE3E5-A812-4268-8250-BFC21F5E29C1@gmail.com> <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: Actually, it only takes a few seconds to sync metronomes using that method. YouTube is full of examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMVxVbCIPjg -Bob On Mon, Mar 9, 2009 at 1:27 AM, Hal Murray wrote: > > > Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the > > American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his > > basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each > > other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the > > gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have > > synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified > > as the first time nut. > > It's on page 67-68. > > When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. > > If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board > that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. > It may take an hour... > > Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get > two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if > their > bases are touching? (or something like that) > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From scifiscifi at sci.fi Mon Mar 9 12:47:58 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 14:47:58 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> Hi Bruce, > White emitter follower circuit attached. Here are the results. First, the circuit draws 33.3 mA at 12 vols. And it's gain is 1:1 as expected with emitter follower - checked that with RF generator as an input just to make sure that I built it correct. With HP10544A the output level is below +8 dBm: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-10.png (with 2 meters of RG174 and SMA-connectors between the circuit and SA) Now the harmonics look like this: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-11.png And 2nd harmonic level: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-12.png So the spec told that 2nd harmonic should be more than 25 dB down, it is just in spec... So the final result looks that the 10544A is OK but it really has this kind of output spectrum? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 19:47:30 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:47:30 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > >> White emitter follower circuit attached. >> > > Here are the results. First, the circuit draws 33.3 mA at 12 vols. And > it's gain is 1:1 as expected with emitter follower - checked that with > RF generator as an input just to make sure that I built it correct. > > With HP10544A the output level is below +8 dBm: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-10.png > (with 2 meters of RG174 and SMA-connectors between the circuit and SA) > > Now the harmonics look like this: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-11.png > > And 2nd harmonic level: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-12.png > > So the spec told that 2nd harmonic should be more than 25 dB down, it is > just in spec... > > So the final result looks that the 10544A is OK but it really has this > kind of output spectrum? > > Esa The distortion is about what one would expect given the buffer circuitry within the 10544A. Since retrofitting an improved oscillator circuit isn't really an option you will need to filter the output to reduce the harmonic content. Try a bandpass filter driven by the buffer and terminated in 50 ohms. Should you retrofit an improved oscillator circuit you may as well replace the oven controller to eliminate the oven switching frequency related sidebands. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 19:55:14 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 08:55:14 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > >> White emitter follower circuit attached. >> > > Here are the results. First, the circuit draws 33.3 mA at 12 vols. And > it's gain is 1:1 as expected with emitter follower - checked that with > RF generator as an input just to make sure that I built it correct. > > With HP10544A the output level is below +8 dBm: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-10.png > (with 2 meters of RG174 and SMA-connectors between the circuit and SA) > > Now the harmonics look like this: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-11.png > > And 2nd harmonic level: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-12.png > > So the spec told that 2nd harmonic should be more than 25 dB down, it is > just in spec... > > So the final result looks that the 10544A is OK but it really has this > kind of output spectrum? > > Esa Try increasing C2 and C8 in the white emitter follower circuit schematic to 100nF. Bruce From bill at iaxs.net Mon Mar 9 20:19:51 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 15:19:51 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Voice of WWV In-Reply-To: <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz><49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <8F1C522777DD4081B68B097FB1D8D124@cyrus> FWD: From the Radio Officers mail list ********************* WWV voice Silent key The person behind the recorded voice of Time and Frequency Station WWV has passed away. Announcer Don Elliot Heald, of Atlanta, Georgia, who gave WWV its human touch, passed away on Thursday, February 19th. BV OM SK 73 DR From scifiscifi at sci.fi Mon Mar 9 21:51:19 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 23:51:19 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B58F57.6060303@sci.fi> > Since retrofitting an improved oscillator circuit isn't really an option > you will need to filter the output to reduce the harmonic content. > Try a bandpass filter driven by the buffer and terminated in 50 ohms. Well I have to decide what to do, get another oscillator or try the filtering. The difference to another oscillators (like tbolt ocxo or LPRO) is so huge that I do not know how hard it would filter the 10544A to the same level, which parts to use and how much it will cost. > Should you retrofit an improved oscillator circuit you may as well > replace the oven controller to eliminate the oven switching frequency > related sidebands. Infact the switcher sidebands are now gone: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-13.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-14.png It was like thios earlier: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-1.PNG http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-2.PNG It was easier than I expected... When I took the output directly from OSC pins without using the coax connector like you suggested the switcher peaks was gone! So I had a closer look to the PCB today and noticed that it has only 2 layers and the ground net is too thin and goes around PCB totally wrong way so that switcher current seems to flow via the signal flow. It's PCB layout design fault, I think that with correct layout design this could be done even with 2-layer PCB correctly. But this is not a problem of course because I will design my own PCB for the final system anyway, having SMA connectors for 10 MHz and EFC. I'll also create separate power supply for ovens and signalling stages. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 22:33:54 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:33:54 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B58F57.6060303@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> <49B58F57.6060303@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B59952.2050301@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: >> Since retrofitting an improved oscillator circuit isn't really an option >> you will need to filter the output to reduce the harmonic content. >> Try a bandpass filter driven by the buffer and terminated in 50 ohms. >> > > Well I have to decide what to do, get another oscillator or try the > filtering. The difference to another oscillators (like tbolt ocxo or > LPRO) is so huge that I do not know how hard it would filter the 10544A > to the same level, which parts to use and how much it will cost. > > >> Should you retrofit an improved oscillator circuit you may as well >> replace the oven controller to eliminate the oven switching frequency >> related sidebands. >> > > Infact the switcher sidebands are now gone: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-13.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-14.png > > It was like thios earlier: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-1.PNG > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-2.PNG > > It was easier than I expected... When I took the output directly from > OSC pins without using the coax connector like you suggested the > switcher peaks was gone! > > So I had a closer look to the PCB today and noticed that it has only 2 > layers and the ground net is too thin and goes around PCB totally wrong > way so that switcher current seems to flow via the signal flow. It's PCB > layout design fault, I think that with correct layout design this could > be done even with 2-layer PCB correctly. > > But this is not a problem of course because I will design my own PCB for > the final system anyway, having SMA connectors for 10 MHz and EFC. I'll > also create separate power supply for ovens and signalling stages. > > Esa The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in the spectrum analyser noise floor. Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? Reducing the harmonics by 40 dB shouldn't be too difficult. However any amplifier after the filter will need to be carefully designed to keep the distortion below -60dBc. Its better to use a multi section LC filter rather than trying to do it with a single LC filter. The filter phase stability will be better with a multi section LC filter. Alternatively you could use a bandpass filter combined with some series tuned shunt LC circuits to short out the 2nd and 3rd harmonic components. The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you use shields between filter sections etc. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 22:48:36 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:48:36 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B59952.2050301@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57252.4080505@xtra.co.nz> <49B58F57.6060303@sci.fi> <49B59952.2050301@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B59CC4.2050602@xtra.co.nz> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Esa Heikkinen wrote: > >>> Since retrofitting an improved oscillator circuit isn't really an option >>> you will need to filter the output to reduce the harmonic content. >>> Try a bandpass filter driven by the buffer and terminated in 50 ohms. >>> >>> >> Well I have to decide what to do, get another oscillator or try the >> filtering. The difference to another oscillators (like tbolt ocxo or >> LPRO) is so huge that I do not know how hard it would filter the 10544A >> to the same level, which parts to use and how much it will cost. >> >> >> >>> Should you retrofit an improved oscillator circuit you may as well >>> replace the oven controller to eliminate the oven switching frequency >>> related sidebands. >>> >>> >> Infact the switcher sidebands are now gone: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-13.png >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-14.png >> >> It was like thios earlier: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-1.PNG >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-2.PNG >> >> It was easier than I expected... When I took the output directly from >> OSC pins without using the coax connector like you suggested the >> switcher peaks was gone! >> >> So I had a closer look to the PCB today and noticed that it has only 2 >> layers and the ground net is too thin and goes around PCB totally wrong >> way so that switcher current seems to flow via the signal flow. It's PCB >> layout design fault, I think that with correct layout design this could >> be done even with 2-layer PCB correctly. >> >> But this is not a problem of course because I will design my own PCB for >> the final system anyway, having SMA connectors for 10 MHz and EFC. I'll >> also create separate power supply for ovens and signalling stages. >> >> >> > Esa > > The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in the > spectrum analyser noise floor. > > Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the > oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? > > Reducing the harmonics by 40 dB shouldn't be too difficult. > However any amplifier after the filter will need to be carefully > designed to keep the distortion below -60dBc. > > Its better to use a multi section LC filter rather than trying to do it > with a single LC filter. > The filter phase stability will be better with a multi section LC filter. > > Alternatively you could use a bandpass filter combined with some series > tuned shunt LC circuits to short out the 2nd and 3rd harmonic components. > > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need to > wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you use > shields between filter sections etc. > > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Esa Another option (which I used several decades ago with a 10544A) was to use a double tuned critically coupled RF transformer driven by a unity gain buffer with another unity gain amplifier buffering the output across the secondary tuning capacitor. NB the Q of the primary and secondary tuned circuits should be the same (need to insert a resistor in the secondary to set the Q). The inductors were hand wound and trimmer caps were used for tuning. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Mon Mar 9 23:09:44 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:09:44 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B5A1B8.5010308@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce, > > >> White emitter follower circuit attached. >> > > Here are the results. First, the circuit draws 33.3 mA at 12 vols. And > it's gain is 1:1 as expected with emitter follower - checked that with > RF generator as an input just to make sure that I built it correct. > > With HP10544A the output level is below +8 dBm: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-10.png > (with 2 meters of RG174 and SMA-connectors between the circuit and SA) > > Now the harmonics look like this: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-11.png > > And 2nd harmonic level: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-12.png > > So the spec told that 2nd harmonic should be more than 25 dB down, it is > just in spec... > > So the final result looks that the 10544A is OK but it really has this > kind of output spectrum? > > Esa You can reduce the circuit current by increasing the value of R10. Try 47 ohms instead of 39 ohms. The value depends on the difference in forward voltage drop of the LED and the Vbe of Q5. Should still get a low distortion output even when the load is a short to ground. Bruce From max at maxsmusicplace.com Mon Mar 9 23:42:36 2009 From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 18:42:36 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks References: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> Message-ID: <3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> Hal Murray wrote. Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if their bases are touching? (or something like that) Yes. That's a standard sophomore physics demonstration. Regards. Max. K 4 O D S. Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hal Murray" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:27 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > >> Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the >> American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his >> basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each >> other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the >> gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have >> synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified >> as the first time nut. > > It's on page 67-68. > > When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. > > If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board > that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in sync. > It may take an hour... > > Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get > two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if > their > bases are touching? (or something like that) > > > -- > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From jim77742 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 00:35:43 2009 From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 11:35:43 +1100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> References: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> Message-ID: Excellent. I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on drink cans immediately. Jim 2009/3/10 Max Robinson > Hal Murray wrote. > > Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get > two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if > their > bases are touching? (or something like that) > > Yes. That's a standard sophomore physics demonstration. > > Regards. > > Max. K 4 O D S. > > Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com > > Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net > Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net > Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com > > To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, > funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Hal Murray" > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:27 AM > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > > > > > >> Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the > >> American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his > >> basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each > >> other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the > >> gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have > >> synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified > >> as the first time nut. > > > > It's on page 67-68. > > > > When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. > > > > If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board > > that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in > sync. > > It may take an hour... > > > > Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you > get > > two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if > > their > > bases are touching? (or something like that) > > > > > > -- > > These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From jltran at worldnet.att.net Tue Mar 10 01:08:43 2009 From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:08:43 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B58F57.6060303@sci.fi> Message-ID: Esa, I am back home now and can't access the amigazone files from my home IP. Can you provide access? Thanks, Joe -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Esa Heikkinen Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 4:51 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] About HP10544A > Since retrofitting an improved oscillator circuit isn't really an option > you will need to filter the output to reduce the harmonic content. > Try a bandpass filter driven by the buffer and terminated in 50 ohms. Well I have to decide what to do, get another oscillator or try the filtering. The difference to another oscillators (like tbolt ocxo or LPRO) is so huge that I do not know how hard it would filter the 10544A to the same level, which parts to use and how much it will cost. > Should you retrofit an improved oscillator circuit you may as well > replace the oven controller to eliminate the oven switching frequency > related sidebands. Infact the switcher sidebands are now gone: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-13.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-14.png It was like thios earlier: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-1.PNG http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-2.PNG It was easier than I expected... When I took the output directly from OSC pins without using the coax connector like you suggested the switcher peaks was gone! So I had a closer look to the PCB today and noticed that it has only 2 layers and the ground net is too thin and goes around PCB totally wrong way so that switcher current seems to flow via the signal flow. It's PCB layout design fault, I think that with correct layout design this could be done even with 2-layer PCB correctly. But this is not a problem of course because I will design my own PCB for the final system anyway, having SMA connectors for 10 MHz and EFC. I'll also create separate power supply for ovens and signalling stages. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From didier at cox.net Tue Mar 10 01:46:51 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 20:46:51 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> References: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Message-ID: <60E15257AA454C4E8E4A4C7BF086BE67@didierhp> But not necessarily lowest noise Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:48 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation > > Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. > Don > > Bruce Griffiths > > Lux, James P wrote: > >>> Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the > >>> amplitude of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in > question. My > >>> VNA allows me to change filters as well as integration time. > >>> > >> > >> And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's > receiver? You > >> might have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide > >> open, then the dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to > >> meet. > >> > >> Consider a 30 dB gain amplifier claiming 120dB reverse isolation.. > >> > >> You put in -30dBm and get 0dBm out in the forward direction. > >> Meanwhile, you inject 0dBm into the output of the > amplifier (from the > >> VNA) and you expect to see -120dBm appearing at the input. > Depending > >> on how good the directional coupler/bridge is that feed the port 1 > >> reflected power receiver, you might be facing measuring a -120dBm > >> signal next to a -30dBm signal, which is challenging... > >> > >> Assuming the DUT is linear (hah!) one could just apply load with > >> different reflection coefficients to it when measuring S11. This > >> might even be harder, though... With -120dBm reverse isolation, > >> you're basically looking at seeing the effect of adding a coherent > >> signal 90 dB down to the signal you're already measuring for S11. > >> That's not going to result in a huge change in amplitude or phase > >> (e.g. About 1 part in 1E4 or 1E5).. > >> > >> Maybe for this list, though.. Measuring phase shifts of > 1E-5 radian.. > >> Walk > >> in the park, as it were. > >> > >> Jim > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > >> > > Jim > > > > Its even more challenging when the isolation amplifier has > a nominal > > gain of 0dB coupled with a reverse isolation of 120dB or more. > > In this case one would be looking at measuring phase shifts on the > > order of 1urad or less. > > > > In this case one could try applying say a +10dBm signal to > the input, > > modulate the load reflection coefficient and look for a modulation > > frequency related sideband at the input port. > > > > Bruce > > > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > > > > -- > Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL > Six Mile Systems LLP > 17850 Six Mile Road > POB 134 > Huson, MT, 59846 > VOX 406-626-4304 > www.lightningforensics.com > www.sixmilesystems.com > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Mar 10 02:08:20 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:08:20 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <60E15257AA454C4E8E4A4C7BF086BE67@didierhp> References: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> <60E15257AA454C4E8E4A4C7BF086BE67@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B5CB94.1000207@xtra.co.nz> Didier A 10-1000mW of single mode ECDL helps. But then you need a modulator. You would also need to avoid frying any photomixer at the other end. Bruce Didier wrote: > But not necessarily lowest noise > > Didier > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:48 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation >> >> Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. >> Don >> >> Bruce Griffiths >> >>> Lux, James P wrote: >>> >>>>> Actually, it depends on the distance from the hot carrier, the >>>>> amplitude of the hot carrier and the particular VNA in >>>>> >> question. My >> >>>>> VNA allows me to change filters as well as integration time. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> And especially, where is the selectivity in the VNA's >>>> >> receiver? You >> >>>> might have a 10 Hz filter, but if the receiver's front end is wide >>>> open, then the dynamic range requirement might be a challenge to >>>> meet. >>>> >>>> Consider a 30 dB gain amplifier claiming 120dB reverse isolation.. >>>> >>>> You put in -30dBm and get 0dBm out in the forward direction. >>>> Meanwhile, you inject 0dBm into the output of the >>>> >> amplifier (from the >> >>>> VNA) and you expect to see -120dBm appearing at the input. >>>> >> Depending >> >>>> on how good the directional coupler/bridge is that feed the port 1 >>>> reflected power receiver, you might be facing measuring a -120dBm >>>> signal next to a -30dBm signal, which is challenging... >>>> >>>> Assuming the DUT is linear (hah!) one could just apply load with >>>> different reflection coefficients to it when measuring S11. This >>>> might even be harder, though... With -120dBm reverse isolation, >>>> you're basically looking at seeing the effect of adding a coherent >>>> signal 90 dB down to the signal you're already measuring for S11. >>>> That's not going to result in a huge change in amplitude or phase >>>> (e.g. About 1 part in 1E4 or 1E5).. >>>> >>>> Maybe for this list, though.. Measuring phase shifts of >>>> >> 1E-5 radian.. >> >>>> Walk >>>> in the park, as it were. >>>> >>>> Jim >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>>> and follow the instructions there. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Jim >>> >>> Its even more challenging when the isolation amplifier has >>> >> a nominal >> >>> gain of 0dB coupled with a reverse isolation of 120dB or more. >>> In this case one would be looking at measuring phase shifts on the >>> order of 1urad or less. >>> >>> In this case one could try applying say a +10dBm signal to >>> >> the input, >> >>> modulate the load reflection coefficient and look for a modulation >>> frequency related sideband at the input port. >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> -- >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL >> Six Mile Systems LLP >> 17850 Six Mile Road >> POB 134 >> Huson, MT, 59846 >> VOX 406-626-4304 >> www.lightningforensics.com >> www.sixmilesystems.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From didier at cox.net Tue Mar 10 02:30:21 2009 From: didier at cox.net (Didier) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:30:21 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <49B5CB94.1000207@xtra.co.nz> References: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com><60E15257AA454C4E8E4A4C7BF086BE67@didierhp> <49B5CB94.1000207@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <554E5B01FB28484B9DBF13F27A14877E@didierhp> All this sounds quite a bit more expensive and expansive than 3 ECL gates, even if one uses 3 packages to improve isolation... Didier > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:08 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation > > Didier > > A 10-1000mW of single mode ECDL helps. > But then you need a modulator. > You would also need to avoid frying any photomixer at the other end. > > Bruce > > Didier wrote: > > But not necessarily lowest noise > > > > Didier > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com > >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham > >> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:48 PM > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation > >> > >> Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. > >> Don > >> From bill at iaxs.net Tue Mar 10 02:40:04 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 21:40:04 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net><3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> Message-ID: <457A5C0A250E43E784ADBC265984CAA8@cyrus> That caused the first audible laugh around here in some time. Anyone know anything about the pneumatically synchronized clocks of Paris after the Revolution? Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: Jim Palfreyman Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:36 PM Excellent. I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on drink cans immediately. Jim From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Mar 10 02:41:14 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 15:41:14 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation In-Reply-To: <554E5B01FB28484B9DBF13F27A14877E@didierhp> References: <49B4699D.40700@xtra.co.nz> <2292.216.14.243.135.1236563262.squirrel@webmail.montana.com><60E15257AA454C4E8E4A4C7BF086BE67@didierhp> <49B5CB94.1000207@xtra.co.nz> <554E5B01FB28484B9DBF13F27A14877E@didierhp> Message-ID: <49B5D34A.7010902@xtra.co.nz> Didier Yes it is, and it can only usually be justified if one has an antenna array to distribute low phase noise RF to. One then also needs to add a means of compensating for fiber delay tempco, which adds yet more cost. A cleanup PLL using an ultra low noise OCXO locked to each photomixer output is usually advisable as well. Achieving more than about 120 dB of isolation at 10MHz is difficult without shielding. NIST claimed about 144dB of reverse isolation for one of their designs. Bruce Didier wrote: > All this sounds quite a bit more expensive and expansive than 3 ECL gates, > even if one uses 3 packages to improve isolation... > > Didier > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths >> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 9:08 PM >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation >> >> Didier >> >> A 10-1000mW of single mode ECDL helps. >> But then you need a modulator. >> You would also need to avoid frying any photomixer at the other end. >> >> Bruce >> >> Didier wrote: >> >>> But not necessarily lowest noise >>> >>> Didier >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com >>>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Don Latham >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 8:48 PM >>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Reverse isolation >>>> >>>> Best isolation is via a piece of fiber optics. >>>> Don >>>> >>>> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From sar10538 at gmail.com Tue Mar 10 03:07:54 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:07:54 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: <457A5C0A250E43E784ADBC265984CAA8@cyrus> References: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> <457A5C0A250E43E784ADBC265984CAA8@cyrus> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903092007j6535babwac8a721e7228191f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/10 Bill Hawkins : > That caused the first audible laugh around here in some time. > > Anyone know anything about the pneumatically synchronized clocks of > Paris after the Revolution? This might be similar to the way I am now thinking given what has been said on this thread. I'd be very interested to hear about this. 73, Steve > Bill Hawkins > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jim Palfreyman > Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:36 PM > > Excellent. > > I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board > on drink cans immediately. > > Jim > > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From jmiles at pop.net Tue Mar 10 07:03:05 2009 From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 00:03:05 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance vs temperature sensor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Hello Said, > > Attached is a screen dump of a run that John Miles did. You can > see that the envelope of the DAC voltage follows the temperature > curve (inversely). On a finer scale the DAC voltage follows the > PPS error. This plot was done with the unit locked to GPS. I > believe the time scale is 10 secs/pixel (1 hr per major > horizontal division). Here's a somewhat-clearer example: http://www.thegleam.com/ke5fx/day.gif Each point is 108 seconds, so the entire screen width is about 24 hours. The yellow temperature and green DAC curves are rather strongly correlated! -- john, KE5FX From scifiscifi at sci.fi Tue Mar 10 07:46:51 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:46:51 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49B61AEB.8010700@sci.fi> Hello! > I am back home now and can't access the amigazone files from my home IP. > Can you provide access? You should now have access. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From marc_bury at yahoo.fr Tue Mar 10 16:16:17 2009 From: marc_bury at yahoo.fr (Marc Bury) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 16:16:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks Message-ID: <887309.49965.qm@web23105.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Bill, I did a bit of research and this is what I found: Between?1890 and 1930 in Paris,?there was a plant?that produced compressed air and managed a network to distribute it in the city. They used 4 coal heated steam engines (2000 HP each) to compress air to 6 bars and send it through 1000Km of pipes. This system was setup by Victor Popp, and the compressed air was indeed used to power clocks in public buildings. (5.800 clocks in 1910) It?was also designed?to distribute mechanical power to small local plants and power lifts. (4.300 subscribers in 1910) This was probably following the success of the pneumatic message transmission system setup 20 years earlier. From scifiscifi at sci.fi Tue Mar 10 16:48:09 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 18:48:09 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> Hi Bruce... > Try increasing C2 and C8 in the white emitter follower circuit schematic > to 100nF. Doesn't seems to change anything: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-15.png http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-16.png When doing this measurement I noticed that the 3rd and higher harmonics level are changing! First I thought that the capacitor change was some effect on harmonics but then those peaks come back... Time domain analysis about 3rd harmonic level gave some explanation: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-17.png The EF circuit was turned on at start of sweep. Something is heating and raising the harmonic level. The bump and the end of sweep is a test where I momentary switch off the 12V feed to the EF circuit to see how it reacts. Temperature sensitivity was also verified with cold spray: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-18.png Well, that's not an issue but makes measurements harder because even without any changes the results can differ. However the temperature effect on the 2nd harmonic frequency was very small. > The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in > the spectrum analyser noise floor. Yes you're right. Just changed some settings and there they are again: http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-19.png About 90 dB below carrier.. I would say that it's good enough! The LPRO for example, gives higher spuriouses, but far away from fundamental. > Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the > oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? I haven't analyzed it fully but it seems to be just the datasheet circuit having LM723, 10 uH coil etc. But it's layout is totally wrong because oven switcher current runs via wrong trace. It would also been possible to have other side as grouding copper but this was not done. The PCB is manufactured by Cubic western data. > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need > to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you > use shields between filter sections etc. Sounds like hard. How it's possible that lower grade ocxo's (like in thunderbolt) output so much better spectrum? Is it all about ocxo output driver circuit? Would it be easier to modify the 10544A itself than trying to clean the distortion? Has anyone tried that kind of modification? -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From rrezaian at motorola.com Tue Mar 10 17:07:27 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 12:07:27 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks Message-ID: Also it seems that there was at least one company making pneumatic master/slave clock systems for buildings. I've found references to these made by the Hahl company out of Chicago. Not sure if any of these are still in service anywhere. I know pneumatic building automation systems are still actively in use today, I believe the office building where I work uses pneumatic thermostats for part of the HVAC control. -- Russell From tvb at LeapSecond.com Tue Mar 10 17:52:26 2009 From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 10:52:26 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks References: Message-ID: <38BB56AD657D4743B18B022A4DB19E75@pc52> 1pps = 1 puff per second? From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org Tue Mar 10 18:49:53 2009 From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 19:49:53 +0100 Subject: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks In-Reply-To: References: <20090309072708.A9737BCDF@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> <3D99D813DB09413F96683568BF8821C2@BACKROOM> Message-ID: <49B6B651.3080405@rubidium.dyndns.org> Jim, Jim Palfreyman skrev: > Excellent. > > I shall get the observatory to move their hydrogen masers onto a board on > drink cans immediately. If you detune the Q value of them you can make it work. :) Cheers, Magnus - do notice the smiley, it's there for a reason > Jim > > 2009/3/10 Max Robinson > >> Hal Murray wrote. >> >> Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you get >> two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if >> their >> bases are touching? (or something like that) >> >> Yes. That's a standard sophomore physics demonstration. >> >> Regards. >> >> Max. K 4 O D S. >> >> Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com >> >> Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net >> Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net >> Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com >> >> To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, >> funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Hal Murray" >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 2:27 AM >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks >> >> >>>> Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the >>>> American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his >>>> basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each >>>> other. I wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the >>>> gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have >>>> synchronised them. (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified >>>> as the first time nut. >>> It's on page 67-68. >>> >>> When I told that story to a friend today, he gave me one back. >>> >>> If you take 3 old fashioned mechanical metronomes and put them on a board >>> that is on a couple of soft drink cans for rollers, they will get in >> sync. >>> It may take an hour... >>> >>> Sounds like good science fair bait. Are there similar demos? Can you >> get >>> two tuning forks to beat if held next to each other but get in sync if >>> their >>> bases are touching? (or something like that) >>> >>> >>> -- >>> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >>> To unsubscribe, go to >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >>> and follow the instructions there. >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Mar 10 19:27:19 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:27:19 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B6BF17.4040707@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce... > > > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need > > to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. > > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you > > use shields between filter sections etc. > > Sounds like hard. How it's possible that lower grade ocxo's (like in > thunderbolt) output so much better spectrum? Is it all about ocxo output > driver circuit? Would it be easier to modify the 10544A itself than > trying to clean the distortion? Has anyone tried that kind of modification? > > Esa Attached circuit schematic illustrates how you could filter the harmonic content of the 10544A below -50dBc. If the output stage is elaborated somewhat its possible to get below -60dBc or so. Input stage is a simple cascode which has lower distortion that the 10544A. The double tuned transformer has a primary inductance of 4uH, a secondary inductance of 8uH and a coupling coefficient of 0.1. The output stage consists of a common base stage plus a common collector stage capable of driving an open circuit load, a 50 ohm load or a short circuit load. The output impedance of the output stage is nominally 50 ohms, its input impedance is also nominally 50 ohms. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: FilterAmp.gif Type: image/gif Size: 59905 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090311/a3c0b6f2/attachment-0001.gif From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Mar 10 19:48:42 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 08:48:42 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B6C41A.70304@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce... > > >> Try increasing C2 and C8 in the white emitter follower circuit schematic >> to 100nF. >> > > Doesn't seems to change anything: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-15.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-16.png > > When doing this measurement I noticed that the 3rd and higher harmonics > level are changing! First I thought that the capacitor change was some > effect on harmonics but then those peaks come back... > > Time domain analysis about 3rd harmonic level gave some explanation: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-17.png > > The EF circuit was turned on at start of sweep. Something is heating and > raising the harmonic level. The bump and the end of sweep is a test > where I momentary switch off the 12V feed to the EF circuit to see how > it reacts. > > Temperature sensitivity was also verified with cold spray: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-18.png > > Well, that's not an issue but makes measurements harder because even > without any changes the results can differ. However the temperature > effect on the 2nd harmonic frequency was very small. > > > The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in > > the spectrum analyser noise floor. > > Yes you're right. Just changed some settings and there they are again: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-19.png > > About 90 dB below carrier.. I would say that it's good enough! The LPRO > for example, gives higher spuriouses, but far away from fundamental. > > > Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the > > oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? > > I haven't analyzed it fully but it seems to be just the datasheet > circuit having LM723, 10 uH coil etc. But it's layout is totally wrong > because oven switcher current runs via wrong trace. It would also been > possible to have other side as grouding copper but this was not done. > The PCB is manufactured by Cubic western data. > > > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need > > to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. > > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you > > use shields between filter sections etc. > > Sounds like hard. How it's possible that lower grade ocxo's (like in > thunderbolt) output so much better spectrum? Is it all about ocxo output > driver circuit? Would it be easier to modify the 10544A itself than > trying to clean the distortion? Has anyone tried that kind of modification? > > Esa The circuit that is used to extract and buffer the signal from the crystal oscillator can have a significant effect on the distortion. In the case of the 10544A the cascode buffer contributes most of the distortion. The emitter follower contribution to distortion with a 1k load is much smaller, however it is sensitive to slew rate distortion with significant capacitive loading. Using a common base stage as in the 10811A can have lower distortion, as the emitter current is filtered by the crystal. If one uses RF transformers between stages then one can cascade common base stages and increase the output signal current. An output stage with a 50 ohm output impedance is useful in that the connection to external circuitry can then be a 50 ohm transmission line. Some of the early OCXOs even used a crystal filter to clean up the oscillator output. Modifying the 10544A circuit would require a new circuit board and the mechanical space available would restrict what you can fit in unless you you use some surface mount components. You would need to reuse the trimmer capacitor. Bruce From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Tue Mar 10 21:05:00 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:05:00 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B6D5FC.9090808@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Hi Bruce... > > >> Try increasing C2 and C8 in the white emitter follower circuit schematic >> to 100nF. >> > > Doesn't seems to change anything: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-15.png > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-16.png > > When doing this measurement I noticed that the 3rd and higher harmonics > level are changing! First I thought that the capacitor change was some > effect on harmonics but then those peaks come back... > > Time domain analysis about 3rd harmonic level gave some explanation: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-17.png > > The EF circuit was turned on at start of sweep. Something is heating and > raising the harmonic level. The bump and the end of sweep is a test > where I momentary switch off the 12V feed to the EF circuit to see how > it reacts. > > Temperature sensitivity was also verified with cold spray: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-18.png > > Well, that's not an issue but makes measurements harder because even > without any changes the results can differ. However the temperature > effect on the 2nd harmonic frequency was very small. > > > The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in > > the spectrum analyser noise floor. > > Yes you're right. Just changed some settings and there they are again: > http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-19.png > > About 90 dB below carrier.. I would say that it's good enough! The LPRO > for example, gives higher spuriouses, but far away from fundamental. > > > Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the > > oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? > > I haven't analyzed it fully but it seems to be just the datasheet > circuit having LM723, 10 uH coil etc. But it's layout is totally wrong > because oven switcher current runs via wrong trace. It would also been > possible to have other side as grouding copper but this was not done. > The PCB is manufactured by Cubic western data. > > > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need > > to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. > > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you > > use shields between filter sections etc. > > Sounds like hard. How it's possible that lower grade ocxo's (like in > thunderbolt) output so much better spectrum? Is it all about ocxo output > driver circuit? Would it be easier to modify the 10544A itself than > trying to clean the distortion? Has anyone tried that kind of modification? > > Esa The attached circuit schematic is for a slightly modified white emitter follower that reduces the temperature dependence of the input transistor collector current. It also increases the loop gain slightly. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: White-emitter-followerV2.gif Type: image/gif Size: 32625 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090311/deeb7ace/attachment-0001.gif From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Mar 11 03:30:46 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:30:46 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B6C41A.70304@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> <49B6C41A.70304@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B73066.3030807@xtra.co.nz> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Esa Heikkinen wrote: > >> Hi Bruce... >> >> >> >>> Try increasing C2 and C8 in the white emitter follower circuit schematic >>> to 100nF. >>> >>> >> Doesn't seems to change anything: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-15.png >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-16.png >> >> When doing this measurement I noticed that the 3rd and higher harmonics >> level are changing! First I thought that the capacitor change was some >> effect on harmonics but then those peaks come back... >> >> Time domain analysis about 3rd harmonic level gave some explanation: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-17.png >> >> The EF circuit was turned on at start of sweep. Something is heating and >> raising the harmonic level. The bump and the end of sweep is a test >> where I momentary switch off the 12V feed to the EF circuit to see how >> it reacts. >> >> Temperature sensitivity was also verified with cold spray: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-18.png >> >> Well, that's not an issue but makes measurements harder because even >> without any changes the results can differ. However the temperature >> effect on the 2nd harmonic frequency was very small. >> >> > The switcher sidebands will still be there, they are just buried in >> > the spectrum analyser noise floor. >> >> Yes you're right. Just changed some settings and there they are again: >> http://www.amigazone.fi/files/gpsdo/544-19.png >> >> About 90 dB below carrier.. I would say that it's good enough! The LPRO >> for example, gives higher spuriouses, but far away from fundamental. >> >> > Does the board use the recommended LC filters and regulator for the >> > oscillator supply as depicted in Figure 3 on the 10544A data sheet? >> >> I haven't analyzed it fully but it seems to be just the datasheet >> circuit having LM723, 10 uH coil etc. But it's layout is totally wrong >> because oven switcher current runs via wrong trace. It would also been >> possible to have other side as grouding copper but this was not done. >> The PCB is manufactured by Cubic western data. >> >> > The required parts shouldn't be too expensive, however you may need >> > to wind your own inductors for the series tuned LC circuits. >> > Air core or powdered iron core inductors should be OK as long as you >> > use shields between filter sections etc. >> >> Sounds like hard. How it's possible that lower grade ocxo's (like in >> thunderbolt) output so much better spectrum? Is it all about ocxo output >> driver circuit? Would it be easier to modify the 10544A itself than >> trying to clean the distortion? Has anyone tried that kind of modification? >> >> >> > Esa > > The circuit that is used to extract and buffer the signal from the > crystal oscillator can have a significant effect on the distortion. > In the case of the 10544A the cascode buffer contributes most of the > distortion. > The emitter follower contribution to distortion with a 1k load is much > smaller, however it is sensitive to slew rate distortion with > significant capacitive loading. > Using a common base stage as in the 10811A can have lower distortion, as > the emitter current is filtered by the crystal. > If one uses RF transformers between stages then one can cascade common > base stages and increase the output signal current. > An output stage with a 50 ohm output impedance is useful in that the > connection to external circuitry can then be a 50 ohm transmission line. > > > Some of the early OCXOs even used a crystal filter to clean up the > oscillator output. > Modifying the 10544A circuit would require a new circuit board and the > mechanical space available would restrict what you can fit in unless you > you use some surface mount components. > You would need to reuse the trimmer capacitor. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > Esa Attached circuit schematic for the While emitter follower optimises the bias circuit frequency response. The bias circuit has a bandwidth of around 40kHz so that will reduce the effect of flicker noise should RF transistors be substituted for the 3 transistors comprising the white emitter follower. The modifications also remove peaking in the bias circuit frequency response. Bruce -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: White-emitter-followerV3.gif Type: image/gif Size: 32293 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090311/a317ec89/attachment-0001.gif From bill at iaxs.net Wed Mar 11 03:52:47 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 22:52:47 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: <38BB56AD657D4743B18B022A4DB19E75@pc52> References: <38BB56AD657D4743B18B022A4DB19E75@pc52> Message-ID: Peter Galison wrote a fascinating book, "Einstein's Clocks, Poincare's Maps," in 2003, subtitled "Empires of Time." From scifiscifi at sci.fi Wed Mar 11 08:16:07 2009 From: scifiscifi at sci.fi (Esa Heikkinen) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:16:07 +0200 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B6BF17.4040707@xtra.co.nz> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> <49B6BF17.4040707@xtra.co.nz> Message-ID: <49B77347.904@sci.fi> Bruce Griffiths wrote: > Attached circuit schematic illustrates how you could filter the harmonic > content of the 10544A below -50dBc. Ok that's something what I can't build from shelf parts anomore... What kind of coils should be used here? The transformer may be tricky, I think only way is to build it but first it's needed to find right kind of core. -- 73s! Esa OH4KJU From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz Wed Mar 11 08:48:35 2009 From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:48:35 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] About HP10544A In-Reply-To: <49B77347.904@sci.fi> References: <365B411039B64511B79792629A2B6205@pc52> <200903080229.n282Swkr025444@host22.the-web-host.com> <49B331E2.2070004@xtra.co.nz> <49B338D9.7090504@xtra.co.nz> <49B38071.6040608@sci.fi> <49B3873D.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B39597.4010001@sci.fi> <49B39DF1.60003@xtra.co.nz> <49B3A0EF.20405@sci.fi> <49B3A53E.5050605@xtra.co.nz> <49B50FFE.6070008@sci.fi> <49B57422.6070001@xtra.co.nz> <49B699C9.3000701@sci.fi> <49B6BF17.4040707@xtra.co.nz> <49B77347.904@sci.fi> Message-ID: <49B77AE3.3050507@xtra.co.nz> Esa Heikkinen wrote: > Bruce Griffiths wrote: > > >> Attached circuit schematic illustrates how you could filter the harmonic >> content of the 10544A below -50dBc. >> > > Ok that's something what I can't build from shelf parts anomore... What > kind of coils should be used here? The transformer may be tricky, I > think only way is to build it but first it's needed to find right kind > of core. > > Esa The inductors need to have a self resonance frequency (SRF) above 10MHz. Try Farnell's EPCOS range (at least they specify the SRF). The transformer is easy to do. I used air core inductors but powdered iron toroids would suffice. Just place a couple of windings on one core and adjust spacing turns, etc until you get the required mutual inductance and then add an additional inductor to the primary and secondary to pad out to the required primary and secondary inductances. This is easier than trying to wind on one air cored former and adjusting the spacings to achieve critical coupling. For 10MHz a #6 or #7 powdered iron core is appropriate. Just choose cores with an appropriate A: with sufficient room for the required number of windings. I dont know how easy it is for you to get these. From rrezaian at motorola.com Wed Mar 11 15:26:28 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 10:26:28 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: References: <38BB56AD657D4743B18B022A4DB19E75@pc52> Message-ID: Hi Bill, Fascinating subject here, thank you for the summaries of your research! You can sometimes find the slave clocks for the US pneumatic systems. There's one on eBay now. Made by Hahl, not sure what shape its in, but the pictures don't look bad. I'm not sure what kind of pressure you'd need to operate one of these, but I suspect you could probably rig some sort of impeller system by using a small electrical solenoid pneumatic valve hooked to a compressed air source. From some simple research these valves seem to be fairly easy to find and not too expensive. If anyone has a circuit or gizmo for driving an electro-mechanical slave clock from a disciplined time source that could probably be used more or less with no modification to drive the relay for the pneumatic valve as easily as the relay on the other style slave clock. One would probably want to include some sort of air filter/pressure regulator assembly too. I suspect the filter/pressure regulator systems sold for use with artists air brush systems might work, and those can often be found cheaply. Looking at the size of the piston assembly on the clock it might be possible to run one of these from canned air without needing to use a compressor, but replacing the canned air might be a pain. Again one of the small air compressor systems sold for airbrushes might work well. Sounds like this might actually be a fun project! -- Russell At 10:52 PM -0500 2009/03/10, Bill Hawkins wrote: >Would like to see one of those pneumatic clocks. If I owned one, I'd >build a GPS disciplined pneumatic oscillator for it. From cdelect at juno.com Wed Mar 11 19:57:58 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 12:57:58 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] 5062C Message-ID: <20090311.125759.1256.2.cdelect@juno.com> There's an HP 5062C closing on eBay soon! Corby ____________________________________________________________ Digital Photography - Click Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmQXaZXHUpXIpXfIn9vPy8MeNSAJr56d1lnRHNzewbrFrUgLyPu/ From cfharris at erols.com Wed Mar 11 20:12:52 2009 From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:12:52 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] 5062C In-Reply-To: <20090311.125759.1256.2.cdelect@juno.com> References: <20090311.125759.1256.2.cdelect@juno.com> Message-ID: <49B81B44.8090409@erols.com> Speaking of such things, has anybody heard from Scott McGrath, ? He borrowed my 5065A manual many months ago, to scan, but hasn't returned it, and doesn't reply to emails. I would sure like to get it back, and make it available to others that wanted to borrow it. -Chuck Harris Corby Dawson wrote: > There's an HP 5062C closing on eBay soon! > > Corby > ____________________________________________________________ > Digital Photography - Click Now. > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmQXaZXHUpXIpXfIn9vPy8MeNSAJr56d1lnRHNzewbrFrUgLyPu/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com Wed Mar 11 23:52:24 2009 From: kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com (Brian Kirby) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 18:52:24 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] 5062C In-Reply-To: <49B81B44.8090409@erols.com> References: <20090311.125759.1256.2.cdelect@juno.com> <49B81B44.8090409@erols.com> Message-ID: <49B84EB8.20601@gmail.com> Seems to be a common problem with certain members on this list. 2 years ago I sent some short HP applications (on HP mixers) notes to a certain individual on this list to be scanned and it never happen. Were too trusting with our data - and some of it is priceless. Brian Kirby - KD4FM Chuck Harris wrote: > Speaking of such things, has anybody heard from Scott McGrath, > ? > > He borrowed my 5065A manual many months ago, to scan, but hasn't > returned it, and doesn't reply to emails. > > I would sure like to get it back, and make it available to others > that wanted to borrow it. > > -Chuck Harris > > Corby Dawson wrote: > >> There's an HP 5062C closing on eBay soon! >> >> Corby >> ____________________________________________________________ >> Digital Photography - Click Now. >> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmQXaZXHUpXIpXfIn9vPy8MeNSAJr56d1lnRHNzewbrFrUgLyPu/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From arie.schellaars at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 02:21:51 2009 From: arie.schellaars at yahoo.com (arie schellaars) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 19:21:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! Message-ID: <505717.82002.qm@web46414.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Hi Time Keepers Not quite an answer to the below question ,?but my own request for? TCXO pinout info on my recent purchase on Ebay. The TCXO unit was designated to go into a HP5340A unit but the circuit doesn't seem to match with my oscillator module. The unit either gets warm or oscillates but NOT both together at the same time. Can't get a 10 MHz signal out but know it's oscillating by listening to it with a receiver. Perhaps it's needs surgery as per recent discussions in this forum. Or even may need special dual power supply ,?again as per recent forum discussions here. The module was made by Bulova and has p/n of 0960-0153. It?has a 15 way edge connector? and a HP P/N of 05340-60036 on the module "mother" board. Other info on the module states it needs +10 and +5vdc ?Hope some of you blokes can assist. Cheers from down under. Arie Schellaars VK3DBF --- On Sun, 1/3/09, Corby Dawson wrote: From: Corby Dawson Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! To: time-nuts at febo.com Received: Sunday, 1 March, 2009, 1:02 AM Well after re-researcing the pinouts again I decided to post this while they are fresh. These Pinouts are for units removed from FTS Cesium standards and were verified by measurement in the standard. PIN? ? ? ? 1000B? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1000A-100? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1200? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 9110 1? ? ? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? EFC ground 2? ? ? ? ???EFC +- 10V? ? ? ? EFC +- 10V? ? ? ? ? ???EFC 0 to +10V? ? EFC 0 to +10V 3? ? ? ? ???coarse tune wiper? ? ???NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC 4? ? ? ? ???+12 pot ref. (10K)? ???NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???NC 5? ? ? ? ???Ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Ground? ? ? ? ? ? ???Ground 6? ? ? ? ???oven mon.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? oven mon..? ? ? ? ? ? ? oven mon.? ? ? ? ???oven mon. 7? ? ? ? ???+28V oven? ? ? ? ? ???+18V oven? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???NC? ? ? ? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC 8? ? ? ? ???+28V elect.? ? ? ? ? ???+28V? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???+28V? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +28V 9? ? ? ? ? ? case ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ??? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC Hope this will help others! Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJFVrwUbhZLMoWdkMvKFgvKsveMbYvndjqBMzsnp5Ao03AENzO4/ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox From w1ksz at earthlink.net Thu Mar 12 02:37:47 2009 From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! Message-ID: <33333400.1236825467763.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The 5340 Manual is on the Agilent site. Don't know if that will help, but it may have the schematic showing the connections to the TCXO. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -----Original Message----- >From: arie schellaars >Sent: Mar 11, 2009 10:21 PM >To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement >Cc: ange46 at dodo.com.au >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! > >Hi Time Keepers >Not quite an answer to the below question ,?but my own request for? TCXO pinout info >on my recent purchase on Ebay. >The TCXO unit was designated to go into a HP5340A unit but the circuit doesn't seem to match with my oscillator module. >The unit either gets warm or oscillates but NOT both together at the same time. >Can't get a 10 MHz signal out but know it's oscillating by listening to it >with a receiver. >Perhaps it's needs surgery as per recent discussions in this forum. >Or even may need special dual power supply ,?again as per recent forum discussions here. >The module was made by Bulova and has p/n of 0960-0153. >It?has a 15 way edge connector? and a HP P/N of 05340-60036 on the module "mother" >board. >Other info on the module states it needs +10 and +5vdc >?Hope some of you blokes can assist. >Cheers from down under. >Arie Schellaars >VK3DBF > >--- On Sun, 1/3/09, Corby Dawson wrote: > > >From: Corby Dawson >Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 9110 1000A-100 1000B pinouts here! >To: time-nuts at febo.com >Received: Sunday, 1 March, 2009, 1:02 AM > > >Well after re-researcing the pinouts again I decided to post this while >they are fresh. >These Pinouts are for units removed from FTS Cesium standards and were >verified by measurement in the standard. > >PIN? ? ? ? 1000B? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1000A-100? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? 1200? ? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? 9110 > >1? ? ? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? EFC ground? ? ? >EFC ground > >2? ? ? ? ???EFC +- 10V? ? ? ? EFC +- 10V? ? ? ? ? ???EFC 0 to +10V? ? >EFC 0 to +10V > >3? ? ? ? ???coarse tune wiper? ? ???NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ??? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC > >4? ? ? ? ???+12 pot ref. (10K)? ???NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ? ? >? ? ? ? ? ???NC > >5? ? ? ? ???Ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???Ground? ? >? ? ? ? ???Ground > >6? ? ? ? ???oven mon.? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? oven mon..? ? ? ? ? ? ? oven mon.? ? >? ? ???oven mon. > >7? ? ? ? ???+28V oven? ? ? ? ? ???+18V oven? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???NC? ? ? ? ??? >? ? ? ? ? ? NC > >8? ? ? ? ???+28V elect.? ? ? ? ? ???+28V? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???+28V? ? ? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? +28V > >9? ? ? ? ? ? case ground? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC? ??? >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? NC > >Hope this will help others! > >Corby Dawson >____________________________________________________________ >Click here to find the perfect picture with our powerful photo search features. >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTEuJFVrwUbhZLMoWdkMvKFgvKsveMbYvndjqBMzsnp5Ao03AENzO4/ > >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. > > > > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox >_______________________________________________ >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >and follow the instructions there. From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 03:45:06 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 16:45:06 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A Message-ID: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com Thu Mar 12 04:13:05 2009 From: HENRY.GILSDORF at adtran.com (HENRY GILSDORF) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 23:13:05 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> Hi Steve, www.netcomponents.com and Ebay have TRW 250-15-30-210. Ebay has a picture of it. -Henry -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. From dforbes at dakotacom.net Thu Mar 12 04:16:40 2009 From: dforbes at dakotacom.net (David Forbes) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 21:16:40 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:45 PM +1300 3/12/09, Steve Rooke wrote: >I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a >10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a >CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. >I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here >in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who >would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? > >Thanks, Steve >-- Steve, The PC board edge connector is still widely made. This EDAC connector from Digikey might do the trick. EDC306150-ND single sided 15 pin .156" pitch EDC307300-ND double sided 2x15 pin .156" pitch -- --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ http://www.cathodecorner.com/ From ed_palmer at sasktel.net Thu Mar 12 04:20:05 2009 From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:20:05 -0600 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B88D75.3090908@sasktel.net> Hi Steve, The connectors aren't that hard to find. Look for 15 position, 2 sided (therefore 30 contacts), 0.156" pin spacing for a board thickness of about 0.067". I picked up a couple from Digikey a year or so ago for my 10544A. Digikey Part # EDC305302-ND. They're from EDAC - part #305-030-520-202. But you should look through the (many) options like wirewrap, solder, right-angle, etc. to get what you need. Ed Steve Rooke wrote: > I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a > 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a > CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. > I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here > in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who > would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? > > Thanks, Steve > From arie.schellaars at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 05:40:37 2009 From: arie.schellaars at yahoo.com (arie schellaars) Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 22:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A Message-ID: <118834.28307.qm@web46412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Another source may be if you have an old Commodore VIC 20 computer on hand and rat the "games rom"m connector. Cheers de Arie VK3DBF --- On Thu, 12/3/09, HENRY GILSDORF wrote: From: HENRY GILSDORF Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Received: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 4:13 AM Hi Steve, www.netcomponents.com and Ebay have TRW 250-15-30-210. Ebay has a picture of it. -Henry -----Original Message----- From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Steve Rooke Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:45 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox From marc_bury at yahoo.fr Thu Mar 12 07:04:25 2009 From: marc_bury at yahoo.fr (Marc Bury) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 07:04:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Some more details from the pneumatic clocks in Paris in 1880: (Sorry for the g00gle-style translation) In "Le Magasin Pittoresque" in 1880, we can read an article entitled "Unification of time on the electricity and compressed air". Regarding the pneumatic clocks, we read "... Already clocks operating with this new system, invented by Mr. Popp from Vienna, have been installed in Paris ... A central clock is setup so that whenever the pendulum hits the sixtieth second of a minute, there is a trigger switch that delivers the compressed air in containers, it rushes immediately into the tubes of the network, and inflate a bellows which is at their end. By blowing, the bellows raises a small lever that rotates one step in a wheel that has sixty, and each corresponding to one minute. At the same wheel is set the minute hand Dial moving a minute ... The installation of the first fifteen dials required eighteen kilometers of pipes, and their establishment is such that all the people who live near the pipeline network that can receive time at home. It is sufficient to hook a small diversion conduct on the central pipe that brings home the compressed air provided by the administration. " In another part, I read that the pressure pulse is maintained during the 21 first seconds of each minute. Also I found a couple of pictures from such public clocks installed in the streets. http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302119.jpg http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302120.jpg -Marc- From EWKehren at aol.com Thu Mar 12 13:01:38 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:01:38 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A Message-ID: Being of a generation when these were common I have a few. If you agree to pay for shipping by putting the proper amount in US $ in an envelop once you receive it, I will gladly ship you one. You can contact me at _Ewkehren at AOL.com_ (mailto:Ewkehren at AOL.com) Bert Kehren Miami In a message dated 3/11/2009 11:46:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sar10538 at gmail.com writes: I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From EWKehren at aol.com Thu Mar 12 13:04:31 2009 From: EWKehren at aol.com (EWKehren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 09:04:31 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A Message-ID: Checked USPS should be about $ 2 Bert In a message dated 3/12/2009 9:02:59 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, EWKehren at aol.com writes: Being of a generation when these were common I have a few. If you agree to pay for shipping by putting the proper amount in US $ in an envelop once you receive it, I will gladly ship you one. You can contact me at _Ewkehren at AOL.com_ (mailto:Ewkehren at AOL.com) Bert Kehren Miami In a message dated 3/11/2009 11:46:27 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, sar10538 at gmail.com writes: I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? Thanks, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. **************Worried about job security? Check out the 5 safest jobs in a recession. (http://jobs.aol.com/gallery/growing-job-industries?ncid=emlcntuscare00000002) From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:31:21 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:31:21 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903120631p7e7353e2tb6cf79ab0b55c9d8@mail.gmail.com> Hi Henry, Sorry but netcomponents want me to register with them using a Visa card to pay for membership fee and the ones on eBay are for a lot of 72 for $150 which is a bit of an overkill for me. But you gave me another part number to look up and that was useful. Thanks, Steve 2009/3/12 HENRY GILSDORF : > Hi Steve, > > www.netcomponents.com and Ebay have TRW 250-15-30-210. > Ebay has a picture of it. > > -Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Rooke > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A > > I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a > 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a > CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. > I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here > in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who > would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? > > Thanks, Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:32:22 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:32:22 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903120632u65270772h732ec3030e04cefe@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for the pointers David. 2009/3/12 David Forbes : > At 4:45 PM +1300 3/12/09, Steve Rooke wrote: >>I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a >>10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a >>CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. >>I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here >>in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who >>would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? >> >>Thanks, Steve >>-- > > Steve, > > The PC board edge connector is still widely made. This EDAC connector > from Digikey might do the trick. > > EDC306150-ND ? single sided ? 15 pin .156" pitch > EDC307300-ND ? double sided 2x15 pin .156" pitch > > -- > > --David Forbes, Tucson, AZ > http://www.cathodecorner.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:39:08 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:39:08 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <49B88D75.3090908@sasktel.net> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> <49B88D75.3090908@sasktel.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903120639p675adba3xac334628190e099e@mail.gmail.com> Hi Ed, Thanks for the pointers. I found them on Digikey, and they will ship to NZ, but the cost is NZ$9 plus NZ$39 for shipping. Just can't see how they can come up with $39 for shipping a single edge connector. Anyway, Bert Kehren, the kind gentleman that he is, is going to send me one now so I shall be a happy chappy. Many thanks to all of you that have responded on this, it's much appreciated. 73, Steve 2009/3/12 Ed Palmer : > Hi Steve, > > The connectors aren't that hard to find. ?Look for 15 position, 2 sided > (therefore 30 contacts), 0.156" pin spacing for a board thickness of > about 0.067". ?I picked up a couple from Digikey a year or so ago for my > 10544A. ?Digikey Part # EDC305302-ND. ?They're from EDAC - part > #305-030-520-202. ?But you should look through the (many) options like > wirewrap, solder, right-angle, etc. to get what you need. > > Ed > > Steve Rooke wrote: >> I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a >> 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a >> CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. >> I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here >> in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who >> would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? >> >> Thanks, Steve >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 13:44:29 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 02:44:29 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <118834.28307.qm@web46412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <118834.28307.qm@web46412.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903120644p74c10ed0nb707b3a7be47941f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/12 arie schellaars : > Another source may be if you have an old Commodore VIC 20 computer on hand and rat the "games rom"m connector. > Cheers de Arie VK3DBF Now that is what you call thinking outside the square! I used to have one of these and I think I passed it onto one of my sons many years ago. He has probably recycled it by now but I might just ask him if he still has it. I bet I get a snide reply from him to the effect that has my PC gone on the blink again :) Thanks & 73, Steve > --- On Thu, 12/3/09, HENRY GILSDORF wrote: > > > From: HENRY GILSDORF > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > Received: Thursday, 12 March, 2009, 4:13 AM > > > Hi Steve, > > www.netcomponents.com and Ebay have TRW 250-15-30-210. > Ebay has a picture of it. > > -Henry > > -----Original Message----- > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On > Behalf Of Steve Rooke > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:45 PM > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A > > I've been trying to find out where I can purchase a connector for a > 10811A but with little success. From the manual it is listed as a > CINCH 250-15-30-210 but searching for that does not turn up anything. > I expect that it's going to be as easy to find as hens teeth over here > in New Zealand but I was hoping to find a supplier, say, in the US who > would ship to here. Anyone know where I should look for this please? > > Thanks, Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > > > ? ? ?Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From chris.cheney at tesco.net Thu Mar 12 13:59:34 2009 From: chris.cheney at tesco.net (Chris Cheney) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:59:34 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903120631p7e7353e2tb6cf79ab0b55c9d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com>, <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com>, <1231b6a80903120631p7e7353e2tb6cf79ab0b55c9d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49B91546.8380.12E4E61@chris.cheney.tesco.net> Steve, The HP 10811AB manual lists several manufacturers of suitable connectors: CINCH 50-30S-30 (HP 1251-0160), Vishay/Dale (HP 1251-2035) EB81-BN15TGW, EDAC 305-030-500-202 or 357-030-520-202 or equivalent I bought from Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/) a year or so ago: Mouser no. 587-305-50-030 Mfr. no. 305-030-500-202 (that was for double-row, solder eyelets, YMMV) Delivery to UK was fast. The only painful part was the $25 shipping charge (I should have bought some other stuff at the same time). And they have since sent me 2 thick catalogues. Chris G3RSE From sar10538 at gmail.com Thu Mar 12 14:13:24 2009 From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 03:13:24 +1300 Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <49B91546.8380.12E4E61@chris.cheney.tesco.net> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> <1231b6a80903120631p7e7353e2tb6cf79ab0b55c9d8@mail.gmail.com> <49B91546.8380.12E4E61@chris.cheney.tesco.net> Message-ID: <1231b6a80903120713j7b49354dmabce14675c730da2@mail.gmail.com> 2009/3/13 Chris Cheney : > Steve, > > The HP 10811AB manual lists several manufacturers of suitable connectors: > > CINCH 50-30S-30 (HP 1251-0160), > Vishay/Dale (HP 1251-2035) EB81-BN15TGW, > EDAC 305-030-500-202 or 357-030-520-202 or equivalent > > I bought from Mouser (http://www.mouser.com/) a year or so ago: > > Mouser no. 587-305-50-030 Mfr. no. 305-030-500-202 > > (that was for double-row, solder eyelets, YMMV) > > Delivery to UK was fast. The only painful part was the $25 shipping > charge (I should have bought some other stuff at the same time). And they > have since sent me 2 thick catalogues. Well, Digikey quoted $39 for delivery down here so I can sympathise with you. Thanks, Steve > Chris > G3RSE > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet From brooke at pacific.net Thu Mar 12 15:42:38 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:42:38 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49B92D6E.1090408@pacific.net> Hi: Here are some interesting patents: May 13, 1879 http://www.google.com/patents?id=ez5TAAAAEBAJ&dq=215381 - air synchronization http://www.google.com/patents?id=48BzAAAAEBAJ&dq=271347 - Electric & air winding & synchronization http://www.google.com/patents?id=JgRCAAAAEBAJ&dq=275700 - VICTOR POPP http://www.google.com/patents?id=JwRCAAAAEBAJ&dq=275701 - VICTOR POPP http://www.google.com/patents?id=nhpFAAAAEBAJ&dq=278159 - electric & air http://www.google.com/patents?id=725bAAAAEBAJ&dq=349494 - air synchronization http://www.google.com/patents?id=BlVyAAAAEBAJ&dq=362462 - air winding & synchronization http://www.google.com/patents?id=4H5rAAAAEBAJ&dq=567983 - air powers pendulum Jul 8, 1902 http://www.google.com/patents?id=a7RmAAAAEBAJ&dq=611822 - "Western Union" Electromechanical wind & Sync http://www.google.com/patents?id=sk1dAAAAEBAJ&dq=704333 - air powered self winding The "Western Union" Self Winding Clocks which were in use for a long time were based on patent 611822 4 Oct 1898, not that much different from the above. There may have been 500,000 of these in service. http://www.prc68.com/I/SWCC.shtml#Pat Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Marc Bury wrote: > Some more details from the pneumatic clocks in Paris in 1880: > (Sorry for the g00gle-style translation) > > In "Le Magasin Pittoresque" in 1880, we can read an article entitled "Unification of time on the electricity and compressed air". > > Regarding the pneumatic clocks, we read "... Already clocks operating with this new system, invented by Mr. Popp from Vienna, have been installed in Paris ... > A central clock is setup so that whenever the pendulum hits the sixtieth second of a minute, there is a trigger switch that delivers the compressed air in containers, it rushes immediately into the tubes of the network, and inflate a bellows which is at their end. By blowing, the bellows raises a small lever that rotates one step in a wheel that has sixty, and each corresponding to one minute. At the same wheel is set the minute hand Dial moving a minute ... > The installation of the first fifteen dials required eighteen kilometers of pipes, and their establishment is such that all the people who live near the pipeline network that can receive time at home. It is sufficient to hook a small diversion conduct on the central pipe that brings home the compressed air provided by the administration. " > > In another part, I read that the pressure pulse is maintained during the 21 first seconds of each minute. > > Also I found a couple of pictures from such public clocks installed in the streets. > http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302119.jpg > http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302120.jpg > > -Marc- > > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bill at iaxs.net Thu Mar 12 16:06:48 2009 From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:06:48 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30BC9ADA2470411FB248553C488829DE@cyrus> That's good data on the pulse time, Marc. I suppose a one-second pulse would be severely attenuated by a kilometer of pipe. Interesting that the first image, Air17, shows a clock at 1:50. This is now universal for watch and clock advertising, for analog dials. Bought the Hahl clock on eBay (thanks, Russell). The bellows has deteriorated, but I have some experience with player pianos. Looking forward to seeing what it needs. Also have an 1879 print from Scientific American coming that shows the workings of a pneumatic clock. Bill Hawkins -----Original Message----- From: Marc Bury Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:04 AM Some more details from the pneumatic clocks in Paris in 1880: (Sorry for the g00gle-style translation) In "Le Magasin Pittoresque" in 1880, we can read an article entitled "Unification of time on the electricity and compressed air". Regarding the pneumatic clocks, we read "... Already clocks operating with this new system, invented by Mr. Popp from Vienna, have been installed in Paris ... A central clock is setup so that whenever the pendulum hits the sixtieth second of a minute, there is a trigger switch that delivers the compressed air in containers, it rushes immediately into the tubes of the network, and inflate a bellows which is at their end. By blowing, the bellows raises a small lever that rotates one step in a wheel that has sixty, and each corresponding to one minute. At the same wheel is set the minute hand Dial moving a minute ... The installation of the first fifteen dials required eighteen kilometers of pipes, and their establishment is such that all the people who live near the pipeline network that can receive time at home. It is sufficient to hook a small diversion conduct on the central pipe that brings home the compressed air provided by the administration. " In another part, I read that the pressure pulse is maintained during the 21 first seconds of each minute. Also I found a couple of pictures from such public clocks installed in the streets. http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302119.jpg http://www.casimages.com/img.php?i=090312075720411213302120.jpg -Marc- From rrezaian at motorola.com Thu Mar 12 16:17:41 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 11:17:41 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] pneumatically synchronized clocks In-Reply-To: <30BC9ADA2470411FB248553C488829DE@cyrus> References: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <30BC9ADA2470411FB248553C488829DE@cyrus> Message-ID: Hi Bill, I was wondering if that might have been you. Please let me know how things go with your restoration effort, I'm very interested! At 11:06 AM -0500 2009/03/12, Bill Hawkins wrote: >Bought the Hahl clock on eBay (thanks, Russell). The bellows has >deteriorated, but I have some experience with player pianos. Looking >forward to seeing what it needs. Also have an 1879 print from Scientific >American coming that shows the workings of a pneumatic clock. From wa1zms at att.net Thu Mar 12 17:33:23 2009 From: wa1zms at att.net (wa1zms at att.net) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:33:23 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C update.... In-Reply-To: References: <715087.57104.qm@web23103.mail.ird.yahoo.com><30BC9ADA2470411FB248553C488829DE@cyrus> Message-ID: <031220091733.23699.49B947630007051600005C9322230650629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9C0396CE0E99@att.net> Just noticed this.....FYI.... Not sure how this fits in with eLORAN efforts. The Operating Status of LORAN-C LORAN-C provides coverage for maritime navigation in U.S. coastal areas. It provides navigation, location, and timing services for both civil and military air, land and marine users. LORAN-C is approved as an en route supplemental air navigation system for both Instrument Flight Rule (IFR) and Visual Flight Rule (VFR) operations. The LORAN-C system serves the 48 continental states, their coastal areas, and parts of Alaska. On February 26, 2009, the Office of Management and Budget (OMB) publicly announced the President's Fiscal Year 2010 Budget. In the section for the Department of Homeland Security, the budget "supports the termination of outdated systems such as the terrestrial-based, long-range radionavigation (LOrAN-C) operated by the U.S. Coast Guard resulting in an offset of $36 million in 2010 and $190 million over five years." For more information on the proposed FY2010 Budget, visit the OMB website under President's Budget. The Coast Guard will continue to operate the current Loran C system through the end of FY2009 and is preparing detailed plans for implementing the FY2010 Budget. From jra at febo.com Thu Mar 12 17:33:32 2009 From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:33:32 -0400 Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C discontinuation in US Message-ID: <49B9476C.2070304@febo.com> Just saw that the 2010 Federal budget says that LORAN-C stations operated by the US Coast Guard (isn't that all of them in the US?) will be shut down sometime after the end of the 2009 fiscal year: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/loran/default.htm The last I'd heard, it sounded like LORAN-C was safe for quite a while, but apparently not. Bummer. John From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 17:37:43 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] WWVB signal improved in Birmingham Alabama ? Message-ID: <499034.13636.qm@web30306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone else noticed an improved signal ? ? ? We had a power outage March 1st and one of my clocks updated for the first time in more than a year. I was thinking it was all due to the lack of local noise conditions as the update was at noon, ?should have been the least favorable as far as path conditions. But now the clock is updating every other nite and this is very strange as the noise conditions should have returned to normal. Over the past year I have moved the clock to several location inside and outside and left it over nite to try and get an update but no luck.?Also replaced batteries and reset the clock by removing the batteries. The recent updates have been in a unfavorable location so I think the signal has improved. Checked the web site but I didn't see a change around March 1st that would explain the improvement. Too many variables and not sure the clock reception has not improved due to other reasons. Stanley? From phk at phk.freebsd.dk Thu Mar 12 18:37:07 2009 From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:37:07 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C discontinuation in US In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:33:32 -0400." <49B9476C.2070304@febo.com> Message-ID: <1616.1236883027@critter.freebsd.dk> In message <49B9476C.2070304 at febo.com>, John Ackermann N8UR writes: >Just saw that the 2010 Federal budget says that LORAN-C stations >operated by the US Coast Guard (isn't that all of them in the US?) will >be shut down sometime after the end of the 2009 fiscal year: >http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/loran/default.htm I belive that the USCG does that each year, and then congress tells them to stuff it and keep running the things. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. From holrum at hotmail.com Thu Mar 12 19:06:29 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:06:29 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance in holdover mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here is a clean plot of a Thunderbolt in holdover mode. The graph is 1 hour per major division. You can clearly see the dependence of the DAC voltage on temperature. You can also see that the unit holds the PPS signal within 150 nS for the first eight hours then it starts going wild. Not shown on the plot is that after 11 hours the PPS signal was off by 1 uS and at 24 hours it was off by 4.5 uS. The PPS error from 8 to 24 hours was a fairly straight line at 200-250 nS/hour ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail?. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TXT_MSGTX_WL_HM_express_032009#colortheme -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: holdover.gif Type: image/gif Size: 26132 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/attachments/20090312/376bdd05/attachment-0001.gif From djl at montana.com Thu Mar 12 20:07:03 2009 From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 14:07:03 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C discontinuation in US In-Reply-To: <1616.1236883027@critter.freebsd.dk> References: <1616.1236883027@critter.freebsd.dk> Message-ID: <1836.216.14.243.135.1236888423.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> This is the "washington monument" budget ploy. For example, the Park Service is told to come up with a budget plan. The PS says to save $ we'll close the Washington Monument, the public recoils from this idea, congress funds it. It's a dangerous process, 'cause congress can call the bluff. But if we all write our congress folks, the $ to run LoranC may be restored. Don PS I know this from working for Forest Service for some years...:-) Poul-Henning Kamp > In message <49B9476C.2070304 at febo.com>, John Ackermann N8UR writes: > >>Just saw that the 2010 Federal budget says that LORAN-C stations >>operated by the US Coast Guard (isn't that all of them in the US?) will >>be shut down sometime after the end of the 2009 fiscal year: >>http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/loran/default.htm > > I belive that the USCG does that each year, and then congress tells > them to stuff it and keep running the things. > > -- > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 > phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956 > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by > incompetence. > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > -- Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Thu Mar 12 20:12:04 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 13:12:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] PCB connector for a 10811A In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80903120713j7b49354dmabce14675c730da2@mail.gmail.com> References: <1231b6a80903112045l111f00denb8f09f7b1cd026b0@mail.gmail.com> <9AC3F0E75060224C8BBC5BA2DDC8853A0F896CEE@EXV1.corp.adtran.com> <1231b6a80903120631p7e7353e2tb6cf79ab0b55c9d8@mail.gmail.com> <49B91546.8380.12E4E61@chris.cheney.tesco.net> <1231b6a80903120713j7b49354dmabce14675c730da2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <562012.27608.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It is possible to use a connector with the same spacing but more pins, for example the 22/44 pin, I have many of these as they were common for prototype boards. Just cut a scrap of PC board to block the unused part of the connector, use two scraps to center the connector if desired. Hot glue can secure the PC board spacers in place. Stanley From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Fri Mar 13 02:04:20 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C discontinuation in US In-Reply-To: <1836.216.14.243.135.1236888423.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> References: <1616.1236883027@critter.freebsd.dk> <1836.216.14.243.135.1236888423.squirrel@webmail.montana.com> Message-ID: <209513.66478.qm@web30305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Found this : "Funding provided in Coast Guard Operating Expenses account" ? Congress is funding the e-loran from the Coast Guard's money no wonder they don't like it, would be different if the earmark was funded with new money. change xx to tt hxxp://earmarks.omb.gov/resources/2009_citation_pdfs/senate_committee_citation_208.pdf ? Sponsers: ? Robert Bennett, UT George Voinovich, OH Joseph Lieberman, CT Patrick Leahy, VT? From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com Fri Mar 13 02:39:40 2009 From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 19:39:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] LORAN-C discontinuation in US Message-ID: <110026.86171.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> More info here: hxxp://www.insidegnss.com/node/551 (change xx to tt , sorry many ads on this linked site) " Since 1999, Congress has allocated $160 million to begin the eLORAN improvements, according to a presentation by USCG Capt. Curt Dubay to the U.S. Space-Based PNT Executive Committee last October. Of the 24 U.S. LORAN-C stations; 19 have been updated and modernized to transmit the extra data services required for eLORAN, but a monitoring network has not yet been installed. ? No funds have been allocated since FY06, however, and a full eLoran system would cost up to $400 million more with an expected annual allocation of $15?$25 million, Dubay said. Annual LORAN operations and maintenance costs (as of FY06) are $45 million, a figure expected to decline to a projected $22 million a year upon implementation of full eLORAN system architecture with reduced staffing at automated stations. Improvements have included the following: ? upgrade existing station transmitting equipment to new solid state transmitters and associated timing equipment (atomic clocks) ? transition to time of arrival (TOA) positioning techniques, similar to pseudorange-based navigation used in GPS ? incorporate new messaging channel to increase position and time accuracy (differential Loran, integrity, and time messages) ? support operation of modern all-in-view equipment (improves fix geometry for better accuracy and extended coverage). Modernization of LORAN improves the system?s positioning accuracy from between 0.25 and 1 nautical mile to between about 3 and 20 meters." From SAIDJACK at aol.com Fri Mar 13 03:38:34 2009 From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com) Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 23:38:34 EDT Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance in holdover mode Message-ID: Hi There, this is quite a good correlation I would say. I am surprised that they use an external temp sensor, not internal to the OCXO. 4.5us drift over 24 hours is pretty good though. bye, Said In a message dated 3/12/2009 12:07:43 Pacific Daylight Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes: Here is a clean plot of a Thunderbolt in holdover mode. The graph is 1 hour per major division. You can clearly see the dependence of the DAC voltage on temperature. You can also see that the unit holds the PPS signal within 150 nS for the first eight hours then it starts going wild. Not shown on the plot is that after 11 hours the PPS signal was off by 1 uS and at 24 hours it was off by 4.5 uS. The PPS error from 8 to 24 hours was a fairly straight line at 200-250 nS/hour From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Mar 13 15:56:15 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 15:56:15 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt performance in holdover mode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello Said, The Tbolt OCXO has an internal temperature sensor that takes care of the compensation of temperature changes within the oven. I do not think that they bring it out of the oven and monitor it in firmware. I think that they feed the external temperature sensor into their compensation equation to handle systemic effects of temperature on the parts of the unit and power supply not covered by the oscillator oven. I think that the effects of temperature on the power supply would be the most important variable. Also they do sell a version of the Tbolt with a TCXO (no oven). I suspect that the external sensor is quite a bit more important there. Finally the external temp sensor is used for generating environmental alarms. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? is up to 70% faster. Now good news travels really fast. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_70faster_032009 From cdelect at juno.com Fri Mar 13 19:35:06 2009 From: cdelect at juno.com (Corby Dawson) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:35:06 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 1200 / 120 now on eBay Message-ID: <20090313.123506.2808.3.cdelect@juno.com> Hi, As promised here is a heads up on the sale of an FTS 1200 oscillator eBay 320349664178 There will be a few more if it sells so keep an eye out. On another topic is there anyone out there that would be willing to help modify Brooks Sheras Pic code to incorporate some modifications to the design? Making the board smaller and using the PIC to do some more of the work. Best Regards, Corby Dawson ____________________________________________________________ Digital Photography - Click Now. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/BLSrjpTDvmQxcsEVR84TWyMHSsSmeTEO85EghEmzm8zQZeiCVlsiySplnby/ From holrum at hotmail.com Fri Mar 13 21:08:27 2009 From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims) Date: Fri, 13 Mar 2009 21:08:27 +0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Is your Thunderbolt holdover filter trained? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While playing with putting the Thunderbolt in holdover mode, I noticed that the unit either displays "OCXO Comp" or "Undisciplined" as the unit's status when you enter holdover mode. I believe that this is how you can tell if your unit's holdover filter algorithm is sufficiently trained to do meaningful holdover compensation. If the unit says Undisciplined, you will see a constant DAC voltage. I suspect that this is becuase the holdover filter does not know enough to be able to meaningfully compensate the oscillator. If the unit says "OCXO Comp" the DAC voltage will be varying with temperature and the unit is attempting to adjust the oscillator control voltage for temperature changes. I also think that the unit will not switch between Undisciplined and OCXO Comp modes while in holdover mode. It seems to check the filter state only when holdover mode is entered. ---------------------------------------- _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet. http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009 From dansawyer at earthlink.net Sat Mar 14 12:23:53 2009 From: dansawyer at earthlink.net (Dan Sawyer) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 05:23:53 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] adjust c-field on an FEI 5680a Message-ID: <49BBA1D9.7080006@earthlink.net> Does anyone know where the c-field adjustment is on the FEI 5680A? Does anyone know the approximate adjustment sensitivity is? Thanks - Dan kb0qil From rrezaian at motorola.com Sat Mar 14 15:11:39 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 10:11:39 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Question about specifications for Quartzlock GPS antenna down-converter Message-ID: Hi all, I have found myself with a GPS clock that is labeled as requiring a GPS down converter antenna. It won't sync to any of my normal antennas. Looks like it has an up-converter integrated into the receiver directly. So far so good. I think I may have found an antenna with a built in down-converter, so we'll see how well that works. However, in addition, I just happen to have a Quartzlock GPS antenna down converter sitting in my office at work which I have never used personally. It was handed to me a while back by someone who knows I am interested in such things. Now I have no specs for this little grey box. It uses an N style connector for antenna in, and a TNC connector for signal out. It's labeled with Quartzlock as the manufacturer, and shows their UK web site. There's no model number designation I can see. A few web searches have so far failed to show any references to specification documents. So I am not sure what voltages it requires or supports. There's no external power connection which tends to lead me to suspect that it expects to get power from the RF cables. Has anyone used one of these? Any pointers to reference information would be appreciated. Thanks! -- Russell From majanoff at verizon.net Sat Mar 14 16:21:06 2009 From: majanoff at verizon.net (MITCHELL JANOFF) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:21:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [time-nuts] Hahl Pneumatic and Self Winding Clocks References: Message-ID: <614825.66076.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I'm in the process of connecting my Hahl clock to a GPS based standard. I've tested quite a few ideas for the Hahl clock and I found that what works best is the small "squeaker" from a dog toy. By compressing the squeaker on the odd minutes and releasing pressure on the even minutes, the?slave clocks works fine. I'm using a Parallax BS2 stamp microprocessor?to read the time from a small GPS based unit (just a GPS card with power and antenna that I got from ebay). I use the Parallax to read the time from the GPS card, and then on even minutes I push the squeaker closed (solenoid) forcing the air into the slave clock. On even minutes I retract the solenoid releasing the pressure, which causes the slave to advance another minute and the squeaker to refill with air. I have everything working except the solenoid (or stepper motor). I'll post pictures when I have this finished. I also may add two additonal slaves to this system, and at that point? I don't believe the volume of air produced by the sqeaker will continue to work, so maybe the samething?with some bellows. I'm currently using a similar system for synchronizing Self Winding of New York Western Union clocks. I use both a WWVB based clock (the clock from UltraLink (www.ULIO.com) and as a backup a GPS based time standard. A Parallax BS2 reads the time and at 59:57 past every hour, pulses about 20 clocks in my house. I run the clocks in groups of 3 or 4 (in series) and?then the entire clock system in parallel, so I can pulse all the clocks from a 12v car battery. The system has worked very well for several years now. The pulse is 2 seconds in length so the clocks are released at 59:59 past the hour. It?takes about 1 second for the solenoids to completely release. Mitch. kC2MFB ________________________________ From: "time-nuts-request at febo.com" To: time-nuts at febo.com Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:00:01 AM Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 56, Issue 16 Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to ??? time-nuts at febo.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit ??? https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to ??? time-nuts-request at febo.com You can reach the person managing the list at ??? time-nuts-owner at febo.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." Today's Topics: ? 1. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (Steve Rooke) ? 2. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (Neville Michie) ? 3. Re: GPS antenna installation problem (Dave Brown) ? 4. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (arie schellaars) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:17:14 +1300 From: Steve Rooke Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: Tom Van Baak , ??? Discussion of precise time and ??? frequency measurement Message-ID: ??? <1231b6a80903042317u7c80f7fh4850b6437af611ca at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak : >> In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great >> milestones. > ... >> These clock kept very good time. >> Cheers, Neville Michie > > Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. > > Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ > > For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: > http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf This is great stuff. Thanks Tom. 73, Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW Omnium finis imminet ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:35:34 +1100 From: Neville Michie Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ??? Message-ID: <700EE3E5-A812-4268-8250-BFC21F5E29C1 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Hi Jim, a "seconds Pendulum" has? frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer? would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would? be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal? to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the? American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his? basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I? wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them.? (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that? > into my M&K > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long? > Reifler > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > Beauty! > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > >>> mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd? >>> discipline a >>> mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with? >>> the >> escape >>> mechanism, the two would fight each other. >> >> Eric, >> >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:48:14 +1300 From: "Dave Brown" Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" ??? Message-ID: <06a701c99d7f$e37828c0$7900a8c0 at athlon1200> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; ??? reply-type=original For all those out there who don't have your own BPO 36 master clock, here is a youtube video that shows the detail of the Hipp toggle in action. The Hipp is the key to these clocks excellent time keeping. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmx5iy4qwhI Yes I know, the sound track IS horrible! But you can hear most of the ticks... Not my video, I hasten to add.. For more info on the Hipp toggle,? just google and all will be revealed. DaveB, NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neville Michie" To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > Another, maybe the original tape, was called 100 Miles per Hour Tape > and was sold years after fabric > covered aircraft wings went out of style as it was so universally > useful. > As the name suggests it was rated for repair of aircraft fabric to > be > used up to speeds of 100 MPH. > cheers, Neville Michie > > PS. I have a type 36 post office clock running and it has a > synchronising relay that forces the phase > of the 30 second output pulses to the nearest 2 seconds, by rotating > the count wheel which has a cardioid cam. > At a fixed time every day this relay was energised from the central > site to correct any phase creep in the > clocks in the regional post offices. I have occasionally thought of > linking it to a GPS time source. > cheers, NM ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 03:37:21 -0800 (PST) From: arie schellaars Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement ??? Message-ID: <816822.45749.qm at web46416.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Just to put in my twopenny worth; In the current (March) issue of OZ electronics magazine "Silicon Chip" is a project to lock a cheap battery operated clock to a GPS derived signal.. Uses a Jupitor type GPS head unit to receive the Sat"s signals. Cheers Arie Schellaars??? VK3DBF --- On Thu, 5/3/09, Neville Michie wrote: From: Neville Michie Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" Received: Thursday, 5 March, 2009, 8:35 AM Hi Jim, a "seconds Pendulum" has? frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer? would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would? be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal? to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the? American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his? basement. They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I? wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them.? (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. cheers, Neville Michie On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that? > into my M&K > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long? > Reifler > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > Beauty! > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > >>> mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd? >>> discipline a >>> mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with? >>> the >> escape >>> mechanism, the two would fight each other. >> >> Eric, >> >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. >> >> /tvb >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ? ? ? Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ time-nuts mailing list time-nuts at febo.com https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 56, Issue 16 ***************************************** From brooke at pacific.net Sat Mar 14 16:22:25 2009 From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 09:22:25 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Question about specifications for Quartzlock GPS antenna down-converter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> Hi Russell: I have a similar problem with a Quantic Q-5200/SM Timing GPS Receiver. The Q5200 sends both +15 Vdc power and a 11.114 MHz reference frequency up the cable to the Antenna Module. The Antenna Module receives the satellite L1 frequency and down converts the signal to an IF of 153.028 MHz which is sent down the cable to the receiver. I have tabulated the frequency and other info for a number of the GPS signals at: http://www.prc68.com/I/DAGR.shtml#GPSs In this case L1 = 1575.42 which is 154 * 10.23 Without the proper antenna the receiver can not operate. http://www.prc68.com/I/Q5200.shtml Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.prc68.com Russell Rezaian wrote: > Hi all, > > I have found myself with a GPS clock that is labeled as requiring a > GPS down converter antenna. It won't sync to any of my normal > antennas. Looks like it has an up-converter integrated into the > receiver directly. > > So far so good. I think I may have found an antenna with a built in > down-converter, so we'll see how well that works. > > However, in addition, I just happen to have a Quartzlock GPS antenna > down converter sitting in my office at work which I have never used > personally. It was handed to me a while back by someone who knows I > am interested in such things. > > Now I have no specs for this little grey box. It uses an N style > connector for antenna in, and a TNC connector for signal out. It's > labeled with Quartzlock as the manufacturer, and shows their UK web > site. There's no model number designation I can see. > > A few web searches have so far failed to show any references to > specification documents. > > So I am not sure what voltages it requires or supports. There's no > external power connection which tends to lead me to suspect that it > expects to get power from the RF cables. > > Has anyone used one of these? Any pointers to reference information > would be appreciated. > > Thanks! > -- > Russell > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > > From bg at lysator.liu.se Sat Mar 14 17:38:43 2009 From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 18:38:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: [time-nuts] Question about specifications for Quartzlock GPS antenna down-converter In-Reply-To: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> References: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> Message-ID: <50948.87.227.52.225.1237052323.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Hi Brooke and Russel, Meinberg does the same thing, but they send a 10MHz - nice choice!! - up the coax to receive an IF of 35.4MHz. http://www.meinberg.de/english/products/gpsant.htm http://www.meinberg.de/download/docs/manuals/english/gpsant.pdf -- Bj?rn > Hi Russell: > I have a similar problem with a Quantic Q-5200/SM Timing GPS Receiver. > The Q5200 sends both +15 Vdc power and a 11.114 MHz reference frequency up > the cable to the Antenna Module. The Antenna Module receives the satellite L1 > frequency and down converts the signal to an IF of 153.028 MHz which is > sent down the cable to the receiver. > > I have tabulated the frequency and other info for a number of the GPS > signals > at: http://www.prc68.com/I/DAGR.shtml#GPSs > > In this case L1 = 1575.42 which is 154 * 10.23 > > Without the proper antenna the receiver can not operate. > http://www.prc68.com/I/Q5200.shtml > Have Fun, > > Brooke Clarke > http://www.prc68.com > > Russell Rezaian wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I have found myself with a GPS clock that is labeled as requiring a >> GPS down converter antenna. It won't sync to any of my normal >> antennas. Looks like it has an up-converter integrated into the >> receiver directly. >> >> So far so good. I think I may have found an antenna with a built in >> down-converter, so we'll see how well that works. >> >> However, in addition, I just happen to have a Quartzlock GPS antenna >> down converter sitting in my office at work which I have never used >> personally. It was handed to me a while back by someone who knows I >> am interested in such things. >> >> Now I have no specs for this little grey box. It uses an N style >> connector for antenna in, and a TNC connector for signal out. It's >> labeled with Quartzlock as the manufacturer, and shows their UK web >> site. There's no model number designation I can see. >> >> A few web searches have so far failed to show any references to >> specification documents. >> >> So I am not sure what voltages it requires or supports. There's no >> external power connection which tends to lead me to suspect that it >> expects to get power from the RF cables. >> >> Has anyone used one of these? Any pointers to reference information >> would be appreciated. >> >> Thanks! >> -- >> Russell >> >> _______________________________________________ >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com >> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts >> and follow the instructions there. >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > and follow the instructions there. > From rrezaian at motorola.com Sat Mar 14 18:14:38 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:14:38 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Question about specifications for Quartzlock GPS antenna down-converter In-Reply-To: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> References: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> Message-ID: HI Brooke, Thanks for the information and references! The GPS I have is sending 12 VDC up the antenna cable, which matches what I'd expect to power the down-converter in the antenna assembly. Lucky for me it seems the correct antenna/down-converter modules seem to be available. I have one on order which I hope will work... I was rather wondering if I might be able to figure out if the Quartzlock down-converter might also work for the unit if I fed it from my current antenna farm... -- Russell From rrezaian at motorola.com Sat Mar 14 18:21:02 2009 From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 13:21:02 -0500 Subject: [time-nuts] Question about specifications for Quartzlock GPS antenna down-converter In-Reply-To: <50948.87.227.52.225.1237052323.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> References: <49BBD9C1.2070802@pacific.net> <50948.87.227.52.225.1237052323.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se> Message-ID: Thanks Bj?rn! Yes, 10 MHz is a nice convenient choice :) for a reference signal. I think I am going to hold off on trying my Quartzlock down-converter until I can find a data sheet. It's looking like there's enough variables between different manufacturers practices that there's a good chance things will not be very interchangeable. -- Russell At 6:38 PM +0100 2009/03/14, wrote: >Hi Brooke and Russel, > >Meinberg does the same thing, but they send a 10MHz - nice choice!! - up >the coax to receive an IF of 35.4MHz. > > http://www.meinberg.de/english/products/gpsant.htm > http://www.meinberg.de/download/docs/manuals/english/gpsant.pdf > >-- > Bj?rn From cgreen at quartzlock.com Sat Mar 14 19:02:30 2009 From: cgreen at quartzlock.com (Clive Green) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 19:02:30 -0000 Subject: [time-nuts] Downconvertor spec for Quartzlock A8 GPS Message-ID: <01b201c9a4d7$6ccc6bf0$466543d0$@com> The Quartzlock A8 series GPS T&F reference does use a down-convertor mounted under the antenna. Contact Nick Law at nlaw at quartzlock.com for details. We will service any unit, however old (we have never said ?no longer supported? in 45 years) The series were A8-B (bench instrument GPS OCXO) A8-RT, (1U rack-mount GPS OCXO) & A8-M (2U rack-mount, metrology unit with high stab rubidium oscillator) disciplined by the 100% carrier phase tracking RX. Most problems were, as common with many GPS, poor antenna position or cable/connector assembly, where the cable had been extended or water ingress to down convertor (bike pump action) if connectors not sealed, we supplied real of self amalgamating tape with each unit. The cable only carries 90MHz & 10.23MHz with dc supply from the A8 GPS RX antenna input connector. uP now obsolete, so the line was replaced by current E8-X/E8000/E8010-Rb. E8-X board level OEM units ?295. Can replace more expensive A8(?5k?.15k) Rb have 3yr warranty. Earlier manuals will be on www.quartzlock.com ?soon?. 2nd users will still have service. Clive Green CEO Quartzlock + Gothic, Plymouth Road, Totnes, Devon. TQ9 5LH England (: +44 (0) 1803 862 062 7: +44 (0) 1803 867 962 ?: cgreen at quartzlock.com ?: www.quartzlock.com Skype: clive.green.skype Messenger: cgreen at quartzlock.com Registered office: Gothic, Plymouth Road, Totnes, Devon. TQ9 5LH England Registered in England P Think Environment, print only if necessary. This is an e-mail from Quartzlock (UK) Limited, its contents (including all attachments) and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the individual(s) to which it is addressed and may also be privileged. It may not be copied or printed by anyone other than the addressee and may not be disclosed or distributed in any way. If you have received this e-mail in error please inform Quartzlock (UK) Limited and delete it from your mailbox or any other storage devices. Although this e-mail and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defects which might affect any computer or IT system into which they are received, no responsibility is accepted by Quartzlock (UK) Limited or any of its directors, staff or associated businesses or contacts for any loss or damage arising in any way from the receipt or use thereof. Opinions, conclusions and other information expressed in this message are not given or endorsed by Quartzlock (UK) Limited unless otherwise indicated by an authorised representative independent of this message. From wb6bnq at cox.net Sat Mar 14 19:22:24 2009 From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ) Date: Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:22:24 -0700 Subject: [time-nuts] Hahl Pneumatic and Self Winding Clocks References: <614825.66076.qm@web84208.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49BC03F0.302932E3@cox.net> Hi Mitch, Sounds like you need a bigger dog ! (hi hi) 73....Bill....WB6BNQ MITCHELL JANOFF wrote: > I'm in the process of connecting my Hahl clock to a GPS based standard. I've tested quite a few ideas for the Hahl clock and I found that what works best is the small "squeaker" from a dog toy. By compressing the squeaker on the odd minutes and releasing pressure on the even minutes, the slave clocks works fine. I'm using a Parallax BS2 stamp microprocessor to read the time from a small GPS based unit (just a GPS card with power and antenna that I got from ebay). I use the Parallax to read the time from the GPS card, and then on even minutes I push the squeaker closed (solenoid) forcing the air into the slave clock. On even minutes I retract the solenoid releasing the pressure, which causes the slave to advance another minute and the squeaker to refill with air. I have everything working except the solenoid (or stepper motor). I'll post pictures when I have this finished. I also may add two additonal slaves to this system, and at that point I don't > believe the volume of air produced by the sqeaker will continue to work, so maybe the samething with some bellows. > > I'm currently using a similar system for synchronizing Self Winding of New York Western Union clocks. I use both a WWVB based clock (the clock from UltraLink (www.ULIO.com) and as a backup a GPS based time standard. A Parallax BS2 reads the time and at 59:57 past every hour, pulses about 20 clocks in my house. I run the clocks in groups of 3 or 4 (in series) and then the entire clock system in parallel, so I can pulse all the clocks from a 12v car battery. The system has worked very well for several years now. The pulse is 2 seconds in length so the clocks are released at 59:59 past the hour. It takes about 1 second for the solenoids to completely release. > > Mitch. > kC2MFB > > ________________________________ > From: "time-nuts-request at febo.com" > To: time-nuts at febo.com > Sent: Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:00:01 AM > Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 56, Issue 16 > > Send time-nuts mailing list submissions to > time-nuts at febo.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > time-nuts-request at febo.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > time-nuts-owner at febo.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of time-nuts digest..." > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (Steve Rooke) > 2. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (Neville Michie) > 3. Re: GPS antenna installation problem (Dave Brown) > 4. Re: GPS disciplined mechanical clocks (arie schellaars) > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 20:17:14 +1300 > From: Steve Rooke > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > To: Tom Van Baak , Discussion of precise time and > frequency measurement > Message-ID: > <1231b6a80903042317u7c80f7fh4850b6437af611ca at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak : > >> In the evolution of timekeepers the SHORTT CLOCK was one of the great > >> milestones. > > ... > >> These clock kept very good time. > >> Cheers, Neville Michie > > > > Yes, stability at 1 day was right around 1e-8 for a Shortt. > > > > Stability (ADEV) of one Shortt pendulum clock: > > http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/shortt/ > > > > For more details on Shortt and ADEV see: > > http://www.leapsecond.com/hsn2006/ch2.pdf > > This is great stuff. Thanks Tom. > > 73, Steve > -- > Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW > Omnium finis imminet > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 19:35:34 +1100 > From: Neville Michie > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS disciplined mechanical clocks > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement > > Message-ID: <700EE3E5-A812-4268-8250-BFC21F5E29C1 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Hi Jim, > a "seconds Pendulum" has frequency of 0.5Hz, and so your subwoofer > would need 0.5 hz response if it is going to shake walls. > Being a purist I must point out that at 0.5 Hz the sound energy would > be in the form of pressure which is very weakly coupled to a pendulum. > The only coupling would be buoyancy, and that would need a 1Hz signal > to give two reductions in apparent gravity per cycle. > > Allied to this discussion is the Loomis effect, discovered by the > American millionaire who had three Shortt clocks running in his > basement. > They synchronised unless aligned at 120 degrees to each other. I > wonder weather they were shaking the bedrock, or maybe the gravitational > attraction between the 10 kg pendulums may have synchronised them. > (See "Tuxedo Park" by Jennet Conant) He qualified as the first time nut. > > cheers, Neville Michie > > On 05/03/2009, at 5:22 PM, Jim Palfreyman wrote: > > > So if I set my GPS locked 3325B to 1Hz (sine wave) and put that > > into my M&K > > subwoofer and sat that next to my pendulum clock (with its ~1m long > > Reifler > > pendulum) it should keep perfect time. > > > > Beauty! > > > > > > > > 2009/3/5 Tom Van Baak > > > >>> mechanical, more of a hybrid, but I don't know how you'd > >>> discipline a > >>> mechanical clock with a system that had to drive in parallel with > >>> the > >> escape > >>> mechanism, the two would fight each other. > >> > >> Eric, > >> > >> Precision pendulum clocks, when mounted near each other, > >> have been known to eventually get into phase lock. So one > >> idea is to add a GPS 1PPS driven bass speaker or solenoid > >> or some sort of thumping contraption. Perhaps eventually the > >> pendulum clock would lock to the vibrations on the the wall. > >> > >> /tvb > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > >> To unsubscribe, go to > >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts > >> and follow the instructions there. > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ > > time-nuts > > and follow the instructions there. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 23:48:14 +1300 > From: "Dave Brown" > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] GPS antenna installation problem > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" > > Message-ID: <06a701c99d7f$e37828c0$7900a8c0 at athlon1200> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > For all those out there who don't have your own BPO 36 master clock, > here is a youtube video that shows the detail of the Hipp toggle in > action. The Hipp is the key to these clocks excellent time keeping. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmx5iy4qwhI > > Yes I know, the sound t