From sar10538 at gmail.com  Fri May  1 01:30:37 2009
From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 13:30:37 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] E1938A
In-Reply-To: <49F9A4D4.6030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <49F9A4D4.6030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1231b6a80904301830u479f7ec7ib38f87dd719c4d13@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Magnus,

I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B
operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are
similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that
would be helpful.

Cheers,
Steve

2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>

> Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular),
>
> I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from fellow
> time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some holes.
>
> I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available
> for the 10811 devices.
>
> I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL
> levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to PIC,
> Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second serial
> port of some sort.
>
> Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where
> various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not bothered
> to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would be
> a welcome and interesting reading.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW
A man with one clock knows what time it is;
A man with two clocks is never quite sure.

From swl at freeode.co.uk  Fri May  1 01:50:34 2009
From: swl at freeode.co.uk (John Murphy)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 02:50:34 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
Message-ID: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>

I'm trying to configure ntpd (4.2.4p5-a FreeBSD-7.1) to use the
shared memory driver to which gpsd should be writing timestamps.
All looks good on the gpsd side, after building it for 8N1, as
I can see what looks like ntpshm writing to shared memory:

gpsd: TSIP pkt_id = 0x41, packetlen= 14
gpsd: TSIP packet id 0x41 length 10: 48cf974905f941700000
gpsd: ntpshm_put: Clock: 1241129131 @ 1241129132.166348
gpsd: GPS Time 425146.281250 1529 15.000000

But, with ntp.conf entries like:

tos mindist 0.010
server 127.127.28.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4
fudge 127.127.28.0 time1 0.420 refid GPS
server 127.127.22.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4

The log shows:

ntpd 4.2.4p5-a Thu Jan  1 09:59:32 UTC 2009 (1)
refclock_newpeer: clock type 28 invalid
configuration of 127.127.28.0 failed

I'm also using the PPS output of the Thunderbolt, hence the
127.127.22.0 entry, and the 10MHz up converted to 33.333333MHz
for the soekris net4501 CPU clock. Both of those working well.

Do I need to initiate the shared memory some how? I feel I may
have missed something vital, which may be obvious to someone.

-- 
Thanks. My First post to the list, but I've read a fair bit of
the fine archive.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May  1 01:58:07 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 01 May 2009 03:58:07 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] E1938A
In-Reply-To: <1231b6a80904301830u479f7ec7ib38f87dd719c4d13@mail.gmail.com>
References: <49F9A4D4.6030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<1231b6a80904301830u479f7ec7ib38f87dd719c4d13@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <49FA572F.1030208@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Dear Steve,

Steve Rooke skrev:
> Hi Magnus,
> 
> I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B
> operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are
> similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that
> would be helpful.

I have an original HP 10811A/B operations and service manual and also 
have scanned versions lying around. Many thanks for the kind offer, but 
I already have that material. I was wondering if they ever produced the 
equivalent for the E1938A oscillator.

Cheers,
Magnus

> Cheers,
> Steve
> 
> 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> 
>> Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular),
>>
>> I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from fellow
>> time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some holes.
>>
>> I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available
>> for the 10811 devices.
>>
>> I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL
>> levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to PIC,
>> Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second serial
>> port of some sort.
>>
>> Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where
>> various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not bothered
>> to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would be
>> a welcome and interesting reading.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> 
> 
> 


From sar10538 at gmail.com  Fri May  1 02:06:52 2009
From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 14:06:52 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] E1938A
In-Reply-To: <49FA572F.1030208@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <49F9A4D4.6030801@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<1231b6a80904301830u479f7ec7ib38f87dd719c4d13@mail.gmail.com>
	<49FA572F.1030208@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1231b6a80904301906j7ded7180i77ca228ba636251a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Magnus,

Sorry, I misunderstood your post.

Cheers,
Steve

2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>

> Dear Steve,
>
> Steve Rooke skrev:
>
>> Hi Magnus,
>>
>> I don't know if I get you right here but I have a copy of the 10811A/B
>> operation and service manual if you need it. The two files I have are
>> similar, one is 3.1Mb and the other is 8Mb. I can send them to you if that
>> would be helpful.
>>
>
> I have an original HP 10811A/B operations and service manual and also have
> scanned versions lying around. Many thanks for the kind offer, but I already
> have that material. I was wondering if they ever produced the equivalent for
> the E1938A oscillator.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
>  Cheers,
>> Steve
>>
>> 2009/5/1 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
>>
>>  Fellow time-nuts (and Rick in particular),
>>>
>>> I have been looking through the E1938A documentation available from
>>> fellow
>>> time-nuts. There is some juicy pieces of information, but also some
>>> holes.
>>>
>>> I does not recall having seing a datasheet or users manual, as available
>>> for the 10811 devices.
>>>
>>> I (think) understand what RX and TX is for, the serial port at CMOS/TTL
>>> levels, as it hookes directly to the PIC. But I wonder what the Data to
>>> PIC,
>>> Data from PIC and PIC data ready is meant to do, looks like a second
>>> serial
>>> port of some sort.
>>>
>>> Also, I found another article on it which is not on Ricks homepage where
>>> various design decisions etc on production is described. I have not
>>> bothered
>>> to download it from IEEE, but if Rick could make it available that would
>>> be
>>> a welcome and interesting reading.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Magnus
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



-- 
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW
A man with one clock knows what time it is;
A man with two clocks is never quite sure.

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri May  1 02:22:27 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:22:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: Message from John Murphy <swl@freeode.co.uk> 
	of "Fri, 01 May 2009 02:50:34 BST." <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus> 
Message-ID: <20090501022228.D6D5DBCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

> I'm trying to configure ntpd (4.2.4p5-a FreeBSD-7.1) to use the shared
> memory driver to which gpsd should be writing timestamps.

> refclock_newpeer: clock type 28 invalid

The configure step takes parameters.  You need to do something like:

./configure --enable-SHM


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From smace at intt.net  Fri May  1 02:27:36 2009
From: smace at intt.net (Scott Mace)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:27:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>
References: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>
Message-ID: <49FA5E18.5090805@intt.net>

Here is what I did to get it to work:

http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032726.html
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/033106.html
http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032803.html

I have a better patch for leap seconds that actually works correctly but 
have not had a chance to post it yet.

You need to make sure your kernel has the sysvshm option:
options         SYSVSHM                 # SYSV-style shared memory

then finally make sure that ntpd was compiled to support the SHM refclock.

I have a couple of thunderbolts working with net4501s using the TMR1IN
mod:  http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/

I used a TAPR fatpps to stretch the pulse so the net4501 would be happy.

I start gpsd before ntpd

ntp.conf has:
server 127.127.28.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4 prefer
fudge 127.127.28.0 time1 -0.017 refid GPS

server 127.127.22.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4

tos mindist 0.050


	Scott

On 04/30/2009 08:50 PM, John Murphy wrote:
> I'm trying to configure ntpd (4.2.4p5-a FreeBSD-7.1) to use the
> shared memory driver to which gpsd should be writing timestamps.
> All looks good on the gpsd side, after building it for 8N1, as
> I can see what looks like ntpshm writing to shared memory:
>
> gpsd: TSIP pkt_id = 0x41, packetlen= 14
> gpsd: TSIP packet id 0x41 length 10: 48cf974905f941700000
> gpsd: ntpshm_put: Clock: 1241129131 @ 1241129132.166348
> gpsd: GPS Time 425146.281250 1529 15.000000
>
> But, with ntp.conf entries like:
>
> tos mindist 0.010
> server 127.127.28.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4
> fudge 127.127.28.0 time1 0.420 refid GPS
> server 127.127.22.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4
>
> The log shows:
>
> ntpd 4.2.4p5-a Thu Jan  1 09:59:32 UTC 2009 (1)
> refclock_newpeer: clock type 28 invalid
> configuration of 127.127.28.0 failed
>
> I'm also using the PPS output of the Thunderbolt, hence the
> 127.127.22.0 entry, and the 10MHz up converted to 33.333333MHz
> for the soekris net4501 CPU clock. Both of those working well.
>
> Do I need to initiate the shared memory some how? I feel I may
> have missed something vital, which may be obvious to someone.
>


From smace at intt.net  Fri May  1 02:38:15 2009
From: smace at intt.net (Scott Mace)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:38:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <49FA5E18.5090805@intt.net>
References: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus> <49FA5E18.5090805@intt.net>
Message-ID: <49FA6097.4030504@intt.net>

Here's the patch to make the thunderbolt work with gpsd and ntpd and 
support leap seconds.  The diff is based on the gpsd trunk from around 
8/08 (after my initial patch was already committed by Chris).

http://www.intt.net/time-nuts/gpsd_tbolt.diff

	Scott





From masondg44 at comcast.net  Fri May  1 02:43:49 2009
From: masondg44 at comcast.net (Dave M)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:43:49 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
References: <mailman.576.1241130444.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <F294B3F09B614129ABDCD3E4904342BB@D77M7BF1>

I bought a bag of Amprobe recorder paper at the Orlando Hamcation back in 
February.  Nine rolls in all, mostly #830W but also some other chart 
designs. Don't know whether they will fit the HP117 or not, but they all fit 
my Amprobe current recorder.  If anyone is interested in them, I'll sell 
them for $1/roll plus shipping from 32068.

Cheers!
Dave M
masondg44 at comcast dot net

One good thing about Alzheimer's; you get to meet new people every day.


> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 12:58:06 -0700
> From: Dan Rae <danrae at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <49FA02CE.20605 at verizon.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Further to my earlier note, this paper was used in a number of other
> instruments, Truetime for one.  The Box of Rolls I got way back was made
> by Amprobe.   I just found a bit of it I had used as a bookmark, and it
> has a Catalog Number printed on the edge: 830AV600.
>
> Dan
>



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri May  1 02:54:57 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 19:54:57 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: Message from Scott Mace <smace@intt.net> 
	of "Thu, 30 Apr 2009 21:27:36 CDT." <49FA5E18.5090805@intt.net> 
Message-ID: <20090501025458.4BAF0BCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

> server 127.127.22.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4

How old is your ntpd?

The old SHM driver used to grab one sample each polling period.  I fixed it 
to grab 1 per second.  I also added some statistics.    In my testing, it 
helped a lot.

It went into ntp-dev last Nov.  Harlan is close to releasing an updated 
version of ntp-stable.  If that's what you use, best to wait a few days.

-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From smace at intt.net  Fri May  1 03:10:28 2009
From: smace at intt.net (Scott Mace)
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 22:10:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <20090501025458.4BAF0BCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090501025458.4BAF0BCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <49FA6824.8040707@intt.net>

I think it's 4.2.4p6 or somewhere around that.  I'll have to check that 
out.  All my ntp servers use the PPS refclock, so as long as SHM, HPGPS, 
and Fury are reasonable, then no clock hopping.  I haven't made any 
progress merging the HPGPS and Fury drivers, but I am working on getting 
machine readable clockstats instead of the status? output for the HPGPS 
driver.  Also, I'm working on getting the time-nut data out of the 
thunderbolt through gpsd to ntpd and log in clockstats (dac voltage, 
temp, offsets, etc).  Hopefully sometime this summer.

	Scott



On 04/30/2009 09:54 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
>> server 127.127.22.0 minpoll 4 maxpoll 4
>
> How old is your ntpd?
>
> The old SHM driver used to grab one sample each polling period.  I fixed it
> to grab 1 per second.  I also added some statistics.    In my testing, it
> helped a lot.
>
> It went into ntp-dev last Nov.  Harlan is close to releasing an updated
> version of ntp-stable.  If that's what you use, best to wait a few days.
>


From swl at freeode.co.uk  Fri May  1 04:01:29 2009
From: swl at freeode.co.uk (John Murphy)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 05:01:29 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <20090501022228.D6D5DBCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>
	<20090501022228.D6D5DBCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <20090501050129.6fff2b87@asus>

Thanks for all the replies.

Hal Murray wrote:

> The configure step takes parameters.  You need to do something like:
> 
> ./configure --enable-SHM

That could well be the problem. I'm using the stock ntpd which came
with the FreeBSD release, so it may not have the SHM driver.

Scott Mace wrote:

> Here is what I did to get it to work:
> 
> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032726.html
> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/033106.html
> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032803.html

I think I had read those, but I figured most of it had been
committed and just made the change in tsip.c which is now:

      gpsd_set_speed(session, session->gpsdata.baudrate, 'N', 1);

gpsd is V 2.38 which was the latest in the fbsd ports tree and
that line was #80 so I'll need to work out where the other changes
go if they haven't been committed.

> You need to make sure your kernel has the sysvshm option:
> options         SYSVSHM                 # SYSV-style shared memory

Yes it has that line in the kernel I built.

> I have a couple of thunderbolts working with net4501s using the TMR1IN
> mod:  http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/

That's exactly the page I've used and it's all working very nicely.

> I used a TAPR fatpps to stretch the pulse so the net4501 would be happy.

Me too, with the addition of 51 ohms across the input. I'm not
running the serial data through the fat-pps though. It seems
better that way.

Thanks for the new diff. I'll see if I can work out how to apply
the changes to 2.38 at the week end, but I also plan to fix the
GPS antenna to the roof this week end. Too much time in holdover
where it is currently.

Thanks again.

-- 
John.


From REMartinson at rcn.com  Fri May  1 05:32:39 2009
From: REMartinson at rcn.com (Bob Martinson)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 01:32:39 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117 paper ?
In-Reply-To: <8068c4a905e4b8da6f8382422119e2e6.squirrel@petelancashire.com>
Message-ID: <AHEFKIADNPMDOPNNPAPDAEMIDNAA.REMartinson@rcn.com>

Try: http://iseinc.com/Rustrak_Recorders.htm  .  For Rustrak chart paper I
also noted http://www.guyot-graphco.com/industri.htm  .


73,
Bob,K1REM

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:53 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117 paper ?


Does anyone know if the chart paper is still available ?

This fall/winter I want to play with the 117 I found, that
is after getting an antenna ... not for serious use but
would be nice to have at least one roll.

-pete

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri May  1 14:32:48 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 07:32:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117 paper ?
In-Reply-To: <AHEFKIADNPMDOPNNPAPDAEMIDNAA.REMartinson@rcn.com>
References: <AHEFKIADNPMDOPNNPAPDAEMIDNAA.REMartinson@rcn.com>
Message-ID: <2b9d96141448f406d43d7ad402c9506b.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

I figured it was Rustrack paper, which if not fussy with what
is printing on it, you get get for under $10 a roll. Now wish
I had got that Rustrack at a local garage sale for $10 that
had a full case of them under it.

-pete



> Try: http://iseinc.com/Rustrak_Recorders.htm  .  For Rustrak chart paper I
> also noted http://www.guyot-graphco.com/industri.htm  .
>
>
> 73,
> Bob,K1REM
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Pete Lancashire
> Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2009 11:53 AM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117 paper ?
>
>
> Does anyone know if the chart paper is still available ?
>
> This fall/winter I want to play with the 117 I found, that
> is after getting an antenna ... not for serious use but
> would be nice to have at least one roll.
>
> -pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From ralph at ralphsmith.org  Sat May  2 17:43:22 2009
From: ralph at ralphsmith.org (Ralph Smith)
Date: Sat, 2 May 2009 13:43:22 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <20090501050129.6fff2b87@asus>
References: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>
	<20090501022228.D6D5DBCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<20090501050129.6fff2b87@asus>
Message-ID: <BF1A874E-59B0-4A0E-93E2-5B648A3FC99C@ralphsmith.org>

I got this working, and the FreeBSD port with the Thunderbolt diffs is  
at < http://ralphsmith.org/~ralph/soekris-ntp/gpsd.tar.gz>.  I also  
used the ntp-devel port.

Ralph

On May 1, 2009, at 12:01 AM, John Murphy wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies.
>
> Hal Murray wrote:
>
>> The configure step takes parameters.  You need to do something like:
>>
>> ./configure --enable-SHM
>
> That could well be the problem. I'm using the stock ntpd which came
> with the FreeBSD release, so it may not have the SHM driver.
>
> Scott Mace wrote:
>
>> Here is what I did to get it to work:
>>
>> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032726.html
>> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/033106.html
>> http://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2008-August/032803.html
>
> I think I had read those, but I figured most of it had been
> committed and just made the change in tsip.c which is now:
>
>      gpsd_set_speed(session, session->gpsdata.baudrate, 'N', 1);
>
> gpsd is V 2.38 which was the latest in the fbsd ports tree and
> that line was #80 so I'll need to work out where the other changes
> go if they haven't been committed.
>
>> You need to make sure your kernel has the sysvshm option:
>> options         SYSVSHM                 # SYSV-style shared memory
>
> Yes it has that line in the kernel I built.
>
>> I have a couple of thunderbolts working with net4501s using the  
>> TMR1IN
>> mod:  http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/
>
> That's exactly the page I've used and it's all working very nicely.
>
>> I used a TAPR fatpps to stretch the pulse so the net4501 would be  
>> happy.
>
> Me too, with the addition of 51 ohms across the input. I'm not
> running the serial data through the fat-pps though. It seems
> better that way.
>
> Thanks for the new diff. I'll see if I can work out how to apply
> the changes to 2.38 at the week end, but I also plan to fix the
> GPS antenna to the roof this week end. Too much time in holdover
> where it is currently.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> -- 
> John.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From holrum at hotmail.com  Sun May  3 00:24:47 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sun, 3 May 2009 00:24:47 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>


Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It is apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From swl at freeode.co.uk  Mon May  4 00:16:11 2009
From: swl at freeode.co.uk (John Murphy)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 01:16:11 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Thunderbolt gpsd > ntpd failure.
In-Reply-To: <BF1A874E-59B0-4A0E-93E2-5B648A3FC99C@ralphsmith.org>
References: <20090501025034.479a94ac@asus>
	<20090501022228.D6D5DBCE3@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<20090501050129.6fff2b87@asus>
	<BF1A874E-59B0-4A0E-93E2-5B648A3FC99C@ralphsmith.org>
Message-ID: <20090504011611.790b455e@asus>

Hi Ralph,

On Sat, 2 May 2009 13:43:22 -0400 Ralph Smith wrote:

> I got this working, and the FreeBSD port with the Thunderbolt diffs is  
> at < http://ralphsmith.org/~ralph/soekris-ntp/gpsd.tar.gz>.  I also  
> used the ntp-devel port.

Thanks for that. I would have struggled to work out where the changes
to gpsd.h should go. All working well now using the ntp-devel port.

-- 
John.


From wje at quackers.net  Tue May  5 00:43:27 2009
From: wje at quackers.net (wje)
Date: Mon, 04 May 2009 20:43:27 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] OT: JHP 3588 Basic feature enable?
Message-ID: <49FF8BAF.6090608@quackers.net>

A member kindly provided me with a key generated from my serial number 
for my HP 3588 to enable Basic, but he wasn't exactly sure what the 
proper way was to put them on a disk so the '88 would read the key.

My serial number is 3005A01033.
I tried creating a LIF file name "LD1033" and put the key in it using 
the lifutils 'copy as ascii file'.
The '88 does read the disk on startup, and I can see the file in the 
disk menu with type ASCII, but no joy with Basic being enabled.
I tried a couple of other format variations, same result (binary image, 
null-terminated, cr/lf, lf, etc).

Does anyone have any other info, hints, etc? I'd like to get the builtin 
IBasic enabled, it's quite useful, even if it is Basic. :)

Thanks in advance,
Bill

-- 
Bill Ezell
----------
They said 'Windows or better'
so I used Linux.



From max at maxsmusicplace.com  Tue May  5 02:36:30 2009
From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson)
Date: Mon, 4 May 2009 21:36:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <E7643CE3432E4F20A3C6AEA5E29AB0E7@BACKROOM>

When someone posted the message about the HP 117A being on eBay I went and 
placed a bid on it.  I won it and am looking forward to firing it up.  I 
already have the HP loop antenna with the newvistor amplifier.  I have been 
trying to build a receiver of my own for the antenna but it seems a lot 
harder to keep things from oscillating at 60 kHz than it is at 14 MHz.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)



Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It is 
apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




From swithrow at idcomm.com  Tue May  5 14:09:05 2009
From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 08:09:05 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Data Precision 8200 Voltage Standard
Message-ID: <20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8@mailhost.idcomm.com>


Realize a voltage standard post might be a little off-topic, but have seen 
them discussed quite a bit, so here goes. 

We have a Data Precision 6-1/2 digit voltage and current standard, which 
seems to operate except for the function of the front panel voltage 
selection.  The mode and +/- voltage switch work fine.  We do have the 
service manual, and the switches are read by the microprocessor.  After 
checking the signals associated with the switches (read signals are 
generated by the uP, and read back on the data bus) my best guess is the the 
uP code my not be working correctly. 

The processor in this unit is a ROMed R6500/1 (cousin of the 6502).  I fear 
that perhaps a bit in the ROM is being read incorrectly (in the switch read 
routine).  My guess is that there is no way to read the code out of this 
part. 

If any time nuts have a parts unit laying around I would like to try 
swapping the processor to confirm my theory.  My next check will be to 
adjust Vcc up and down and take some freeze spray to the processor to see if 
I can find a point that it will operate, however, that will certainly not 
provide a fix. 

Any help appreciated. 

Skip Withrow


From brooke at pacific.net  Tue May  5 14:51:58 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 07:51:58 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Data Precision 8200 Voltage Standard
In-Reply-To: <20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8@mailhost.idcomm.com>
References: <20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8@mailhost.idcomm.com>
Message-ID: <4A00528E.1010806@pacific.net>

Hi Skip:

Don't know this unit, but can comment on this kind of problem.  The most 
likely cause is a poor (oxidized) electrical connection.  So if there 
are switches, connectors, sockets, etc. involved then they need to be 
cycled a few times.  See What Goes Wrong:
http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml#Wgw

Another possible problem relates to electrolytic caps where the 
electrolyte has gone bad.  You need an Effective Series Resistance (ESR) 
meter to check them, see Capacitor Failure:
http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml#CF

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



Skip Withrow wrote:
>
> Realize a voltage standard post might be a little off-topic, but have 
> seen them discussed quite a bit, so here goes.
> We have a Data Precision 6-1/2 digit voltage and current standard, 
> which seems to operate except for the function of the front panel 
> voltage selection.  The mode and +/- voltage switch work fine.  We do 
> have the service manual, and the switches are read by the 
> microprocessor.  After checking the signals associated with the 
> switches (read signals are generated by the uP, and read back on the 
> data bus) my best guess is the the uP code my not be working correctly.
> The processor in this unit is a ROMed R6500/1 (cousin of the 6502).  I 
> fear that perhaps a bit in the ROM is being read incorrectly (in the 
> switch read routine).  My guess is that there is no way to read the 
> code out of this part.
> If any time nuts have a parts unit laying around I would like to try 
> swapping the processor to confirm my theory.  My next check will be to 
> adjust Vcc up and down and take some freeze spray to the processor to 
> see if I can find a point that it will operate, however, that will 
> certainly not provide a fix.
> Any help appreciated.
> Skip Withrow
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue May  5 15:24:49 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 05 May 2009 15:24:49 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Data Precision 8200 Voltage Standard
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 2009 08:09:05 CST."
	<20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8@mailhost.idcomm.com> 
Message-ID: <1672.1241537089@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8 at mailhost.idcomm.com>, "Skip Withrow" wr
ites:

>The processor in this unit is a ROMed R6500/1 (cousin of the 6502).  I fear 
>that perhaps a bit in the ROM is being read incorrectly (in the switch read 
>routine).  My guess is that there is no way to read the code out of this 
>part. 

In general, I can highly recommend that everybody try to get copies of ROM
and EPROMs of your vintage gear as backups.

If the chips are soldered in, you can avoid unsoldering them, by catching
the contents on the bus with a logic analyzer, while the ROM checksum
test runs.

A lot of HP kit have undocumented "read memory" commands that can be
used over GPIP, trick is to guess what it is called and how it works
without a ROM image to disassemble.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From bill at iaxs.net  Tue May  5 19:00:40 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 14:00:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Data Precision 8200 Voltage Standard
In-Reply-To: <4A00528E.1010806@pacific.net>
References: <20090505140906.19D4BEA2C1F8@mailhost.idcomm.com>
	<4A00528E.1010806@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <B2F7843F74984F1CB0E10063C7761CC8@cyrus>

Completely agree with Brooke, with one addition.

Measure power supply voltages at the supply and at the chips. If the
power
is not right, there's no need to look for something more complex.

If the voltages look OK, check for noisy power.

Bill Hawkins
 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Brooke Clarke
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 9:52 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Data Precision 8200 Voltage Standard

Hi Skip:

Don't know this unit, but can comment on this kind of problem.  The most
likely cause is a poor (oxidized) electrical connection.  So if there
are switches, connectors, sockets, etc. involved then they need to be
cycled a few times.  See What Goes Wrong:
http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml#Wgw

Another possible problem relates to electrolytic caps where the
electrolyte has gone bad.  You need an Effective Series Resistance (ESR)
meter to check them, see Capacitor Failure:
http://www.prc68.com/I/HaT.shtml#CF

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com




From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed May  6 10:24:30 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 03:24:30 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost GPS gadgets for timing
Message-ID: <20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


I'm looking for low cost GPS gadgets that are good for time keeping via ntpd.

Any suggestions?

I'm interested in not-so-good timing as well as the good stuff that attracts 
time-nuts.  As long as it's low cost.

USB doesn't support PPS and it has a bad reputation because it's polled.  But 
the polling is done in hardware with a 1 ms time scale.  It won't be great, 
but for lots of uses it's good enough.

The problem is that most of the low-cost GPS toys use the SiRF chip set.  It 
sucks for timing.  It looks like the NMEA sentences are sent from a timer 
with 100 ms ticks.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif

The Garmin GPS 18 LVC used to be popular.  It's been replaced by the GPS 18x 
which is much more sensitive.  Unfortunately, the timing went way downhill.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVCx-off.gif

Anybody know how well the u-Blox chips work?  Are they used in any low cost 
units?  (USB ok.)


Just to make sure we are on the same wavelength.  I don't care about a 
constant offset.  I can easily correct for that.  It's the jitter that I 
don't like.  The time scale is wrong.  It wanders too slowly.  I can't filter 
it out.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed May  6 10:32:56 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 10:32:56 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost GPS gadgets for timing
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 06 May 2009 03:24:30 MST."
	<20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> 
Message-ID: <6254.1241605976@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090506102431.77010BCE5 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murr
ay writes:

>I'm looking for low cost GPS gadgets that are good for time keeping via ntpd.

I think the reference is still the M12M from the company that used to be
called Motorola...

see www.synergy-gps.com for instance.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From rrezaian at motorola.com  Wed May  6 15:47:37 2009
From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 10:47:37 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost GPS gadgets for timing
In-Reply-To: <20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <p06240806c6275735815b@[192.168.1.1]>

Hi Hal,

I can't offer much in the way of recommendations for GPS receivers, 
but I have been doing some experimentation just lately with USB 
serial devices for serial time code to NTP.

I'd be very interested in comparing results!

So far I've been using reasonably decent GPS clocks and a USB serial 
port adapter, not the cheap USB GPS pucks.  I've been meaning to pick 
up one of the cheap pucks for comparison too, but haven't got that 
point.

So far I have noticed that I can get a pretty decent notion of the 
constant offset just using the NTP calibrate mode.

The random jitter is pretty noticeable too, but I've been surprised 
by how mild it can be in more "ideal" circumstances.  I was expecting 
much worse.

I have two systems I am testing on, one ancient slow system that's 
VERY busy (I use it as a main desktop for day to day use, and I can 
routinely peg the CPU for minutes at a time).  And one much newer 
dual core laptop that pretty much sits doing only NTP.  Yes I know 
it's odd to use the older laptop for my day to day work, and leave 
the newer one idle, but still use a lot of old software so...

Anyway, here's a little data:

Three random data points from the fast system, lowest jitter:

ntpq> peers
      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*192.168.1.90    .GPS.            1 u   66  128  377    0.529    0.061   0.068
+192.168.1.95    .GPS.            1 u  104  128  377    0.454    0.101   0.108
+192.168.1.101   .GPS.            1 u   76  128  377    0.557    0.053   0.065
+192.168.1.102   .GPS.            1 u   11  128  377    0.553    0.039   0.042
+192.168.1.103   .GPS.            1 u   78  128  377    0.523    0.024   0.049
-TRUETIME(0)     .GPS.            1 l   35   64  377    0.000   -0.437   0.537
ntpq> peers
      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
-192.168.1.90    .GPS.            1 u   73  128  377    0.610    0.001   0.016
-192.168.1.95    .GPS.            1 u    1  128  377    0.585    0.007   0.016
+192.168.1.101   .GPS.            1 u   95  128  377    0.546    0.058   0.043
*192.168.1.102   .GPS.            1 u   22  128  377    0.574    0.036   0.024
+192.168.1.103   .GPS.            1 u   91  128  377    0.506    0.026   0.028
-TRUETIME(0)     .GPS.            1 l   24   64  377    0.000    0.233   0.360
ntpq> peers
      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
-192.168.1.90    .GPS.            1 u   50  128  377    0.638    0.013   0.024
*192.168.1.95    .GPS.            1 u   97  128  377    0.575    0.051   0.041
-192.168.1.101   .GPS.            1 u   70  128  377    0.503    0.083   0.067
+192.168.1.102   .GPS.            1 u    1  128  377    0.623    0.022   0.015
-192.168.1.103   .GPS.            1 u   61  128  377    0.626   -0.011   0.020
-TRUETIME(0)     .GPS.            1 l   62   64  377    0.000    0.064   0.287
ntpq>

Most of the clocks run fairly close.  The serial time code swings 
much more wildly than the direct Ethernet connections.  Despite the 
much larger bounce, it still usually stays in sync with everything 
else within a swing of a millisecond or so.

On my other slower system the USB handling is much sloppier, no doubt 
due to the system being slower, older, busier and so on.  Don't read 
too much into this, the system below is NOT a perfect comparison.  I 
just threw it in to show that USB can be very seriously impacted by 
what else is going on with the system...  A busy system with more USB 
devices will degrade really badly compared to the gentler test case.

ntpq> peers
      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
+192.168.1.90    .GPS.            1 u   89  128  377    0.545    0.055   0.059
+192.168.1.95    .GPS.            1 u  103  128  377    0.540    0.051   0.046
+192.168.1.100   .GPS.            1 u   98  128  377    0.422    0.042   0.031
*192.168.1.101   .GPS.            1 u    1  128  377    0.415   -0.003   0.043
+192.168.1.102   .GPS.            1 u   97  128  377    0.453   -0.011   0.038
+192.168.1.103   .GPS.            1 u  107  128  377    0.374    0.021   0.039
xTRUETIME(0)     .GPS.            1 l   57   64  377    0.000  -23.338  21.204
ntpq> peers
      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
+192.168.1.90    .GPS.            1 u    2  128  377    0.555   -0.036   0.031
*192.168.1.95    .GPS.            1 u   23  128  377    0.503   -0.055   0.028
+192.168.1.100   .GPS.            1 u    2  128  377    0.437   -0.085   0.024
+192.168.1.101   .GPS.            1 u    1  128  377    0.439   -0.086   0.040
+192.168.1.102   .GPS.            1 u  107  128  377    0.439   -0.015   0.238
+192.168.1.103   .GPS.            1 u   14  128  377    0.451   -0.093   0.026
-TRUETIME(0)     .GPS.            1 l   51   64  377    0.000    0.779   0.431
ntpq>

Both systems have similar overall offsets for the USB service and 
handling time.  I am NOT using any special line disciplines, nor have 
I connected the PPS.  This is just plain serial time code.

I've been collecting NTP stats too, so when I have some time I will 
try to generate some pretty graphs.
--
Russell

At 3:24 AM -0700 2009/05/06, Hal Murray wrote:
>I'm looking for low cost GPS gadgets that are good for time keeping via ntpd.
>
>Any suggestions?
>
>I'm interested in not-so-good timing as well as the good stuff that attracts
>time-nuts.  As long as it's low cost.
>
>USB doesn't support PPS and it has a bad reputation because it's polled.  But
>the polling is done in hardware with a 1 ms time scale.  It won't be great,
>but for lots of uses it's good enough.
>
>The problem is that most of the low-cost GPS toys use the SiRF chip set.  It
>sucks for timing.  It looks like the NMEA sentences are sent from a timer
>with 100 ms ticks.
>   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif
>
>The Garmin GPS 18 LVC used to be popular.  It's been replaced by the GPS 18x
>which is much more sensitive.  Unfortunately, the timing went way downhill.
>   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVCx-off.gif
>
>Anybody know how well the u-Blox chips work?  Are they used in any low cost
>units?  (USB ok.)
>
>
>Just to make sure we are on the same wavelength.  I don't care about a
>constant offset.  I can easily correct for that.  It's the jitter that I
>don't like.  The time scale is wrong.  It wanders too slowly.  I can't filter
>it out.
>
>
>
>--
>These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.

From mccormick_mack at hotmail.com  Wed May  6 17:25:11 2009
From: mccormick_mack at hotmail.com (Mack)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:25:11 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] WP-92066-L5 Rubidium Pinout
Message-ID: <BAY124-DS50C6D6EB4C4CCD69D1F8BE8660@phx.gbl>

I just picked up a 10 MHz Lucent WP-92066-L5 Rubidium source. Does anyone have the pinout for this unit so I may build a cable? Power specification would be great as well.

Thanks in advance.


Mack 
WB4MAK

From nospam at oceanfree.net  Wed May  6 17:54:08 2009
From: nospam at oceanfree.net (Eamon Skelton)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 18:54:08 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Low cost GPS gadgets for timing
In-Reply-To: <20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090506102431.77010BCE5@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A01CEC0.3070606@oceanfree.net>

Hal Murray wrote:
>
> The problem is that most of the low-cost GPS toys use the SiRF chip set.  It 
> sucks for timing.  It looks like the NMEA sentences are sent from a timer 
> with 100 ms ticks.
>   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif

A lot of SiRFstar III based devices have a 1pps pin, but you
might have to crack them open with a hammer to find it. Claimed
accuracy is 1 microsecond, but I find my cheap bluetooth GPS
receiver is always within a few tens of ns compared to a
Navsync CW12-TIM, Rockwell Jupiter and Garmin GPS 18.

I have read some words of wisdom on the web which say
that the SiRFstar III is not suitable for use in a
GPSDO, but I can't see any reason for this.

One thing to be aware of when you are searching for
the PPS output is that the PPS duration is only 1
microsecond which makes it difficult to spot on an
analogue scope.




-- 
Linux 2.6.26


From mpfahmie at lbl.gov  Wed May  6 20:12:37 2009
From: mpfahmie at lbl.gov (Mike Fahmie)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 13:12:37 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
In-Reply-To: <E7643CE3432E4F20A3C6AEA5E29AB0E7@BACKROOM>
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>

The HP117 manual cautions you to keep the antenna far away from the 
receiver for just that reason!

Take a good look at the electrolytics, even the tantalums in the shielded 
box. I had to replace most of them.

-Mike-
WA6ZTY


At 07:36 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:
>When someone posted the message about the HP 117A being on eBay I went and 
>placed a bid on it.  I won it and am looking forward to firing it up.  I 
>already have the HP loop antenna with the newvistor amplifier.  I have 
>been trying to build a receiver of my own for the antenna but it seems a 
>lot harder to keep things from oscillating at 60 kHz than it is at 14 MHz.
>
>Regards.
>
>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>
>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>
>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>
>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
>To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
>Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
>
>
>
>Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It 
>is apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail? goes with you.
>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>




From max at maxsmusicplace.com  Wed May  6 21:32:41 2009
From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 16:32:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>
	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>
Message-ID: <DEA0C78D8B994476AA6938BE1F769099@BACKROOM>

Thank you.  Do they give a number for the distance between the receiver and 
antenna?

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Fahmie" <mpfahmie at lbl.gov>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 117A


The HP117 manual cautions you to keep the antenna far away from the
receiver for just that reason!

Take a good look at the electrolytics, even the tantalums in the shielded
box. I had to replace most of them.

-Mike-
WA6ZTY


At 07:36 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:
>When someone posted the message about the HP 117A being on eBay I went and 
>placed a bid on it.  I won it and am looking forward to firing it up.  I 
>already have the HP loop antenna with the newvistor amplifier.  I have been 
>trying to build a receiver of my own for the antenna but it seems a lot 
>harder to keep things from oscillating at 60 kHz than it is at 14 MHz.
>
>Regards.
>
>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>
>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>
>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>
>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
>To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
>Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
>
>
>
>Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It 
>is apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail? goes with you.
>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to 
>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to 
>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>



_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to 
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and follow the instructions there.




From mpfahmie at lbl.gov  Wed May  6 22:19:23 2009
From: mpfahmie at lbl.gov (Mike Fahmie)
Date: Wed, 06 May 2009 15:19:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
In-Reply-To: <DEA0C78D8B994476AA6938BE1F769099@BACKROOM>
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>
	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20090506145023.0327be88@popper.lbl.gov>

The manual is at home (I'm at work), but I think it said something like 50 
or 100 feet.  Mine is about 50 feet away with no apparent problems.  Skin 
depth at 60 KHz is much larger than at HF frequencies, that's why the 
shielded RF amp box is so thick.

-Mike-
WA6ZTY

At 02:32 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
>Thank you.  Do they give a number for the distance between the receiver 
>and antenna?
>
>Regards.
>
>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>
>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>
>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>
>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fahmie" <mpfahmie at lbl.gov>
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
><time-nuts at febo.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 117A
>
>
>The HP117 manual cautions you to keep the antenna far away from the
>receiver for just that reason!
>
>Take a good look at the electrolytics, even the tantalums in the shielded
>box. I had to replace most of them.
>
>-Mike-
>WA6ZTY
>
>
>At 07:36 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:
>>When someone posted the message about the HP 117A being on eBay I went 
>>and placed a bid on it.  I won it and am looking forward to firing it 
>>up.  I already have the HP loop antenna with the newvistor amplifier.  I 
>>have been trying to build a receiver of my own for the antenna but it 
>>seems a lot harder to keep things from oscillating at 60 kHz than it is 
>>at 14 MHz.
>>
>>Regards.
>>
>>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>>
>>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>>
>>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>>
>>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
>>To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
>>Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
>>
>>
>>
>>Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It 
>>is apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Hotmail? goes with you.
>>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>




From max at maxsmusicplace.com  Thu May  7 01:06:00 2009
From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson)
Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 20:06:00 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl><4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>
	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506145023.0327be88@popper.lbl.gov>
Message-ID: <CD4F8AEB4EFC49278DEFC15303256D05@BACKROOM>

Mike wrote.

Skin depth at 60 KHz is much larger than at HF frequencies,

I knew that, why did I forget.  I must be getting old.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Fahmie" <mpfahmie at lbl.gov>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 117A


The manual is at home (I'm at work), but I think it said something like 50
or 100 feet.  Mine is about 50 feet away with no apparent problems.  Skin
depth at 60 KHz is much larger than at HF frequencies, that's why the
shielded RF amp box is so thick.

-Mike-
WA6ZTY

At 02:32 PM 5/6/2009, you wrote:
>Thank you.  Do they give a number for the distance between the receiver and 
>antenna?
>
>Regards.
>
>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>
>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>
>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>
>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Fahmie" <mpfahmie at lbl.gov>
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
><time-nuts at febo.com>
>Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2009 3:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 117A
>
>
>The HP117 manual cautions you to keep the antenna far away from the
>receiver for just that reason!
>
>Take a good look at the electrolytics, even the tantalums in the shielded
>box. I had to replace most of them.
>
>-Mike-
>WA6ZTY
>
>
>At 07:36 PM 5/4/2009, you wrote:
>>When someone posted the message about the HP 117A being on eBay I went and 
>>placed a bid on it.  I won it and am looking forward to firing it up.  I 
>>already have the HP loop antenna with the newvistor amplifier.  I have 
>>been trying to build a receiver of my own for the antenna but it seems a 
>>lot harder to keep things from oscillating at 60 kHz than it is at 14 MHz.
>>
>>Regards.
>>
>>Max.  K 4 O D S.
>>
>>Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com
>>
>>Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
>>Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
>>Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com
>>
>>To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
>>funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
>>To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
>>Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)
>>
>>
>>
>>Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It 
>>is apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Hotmail? goes with you.
>>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to 
>>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>To unsubscribe, go to 
>>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to 
>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to 
>https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>



_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to 
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and follow the instructions there.




From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu May  7 11:38:18 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 13:38:18 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
In-Reply-To: <CD4F8AEB4EFC49278DEFC15303256D05@BACKROOM>
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl><4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506145023.0327be88@popper.lbl.gov>
	<CD4F8AEB4EFC49278DEFC15303256D05@BACKROOM>
Message-ID: <4A02C82A.6060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Max,

Max Robinson skrev:
> Mike wrote.
> 
> Skin depth at 60 KHz is much larger than at HF frequencies,
> 
> I knew that, why did I forget.  I must be getting old.

Your not that old, it was just not up in the cache memory as you haven't 
used that knowledge recently. If you really had forgot it, you would 
have been asking why that could be or even worse, argued against such a 
obviously stupid argument, which you didn't.

So don't worry, you just needed some help to recall what you already 
know. I make the same mistake over and over again, and it brings me no 
immediate worry.

Now, we just have to come up with the next topic to confuse you with.. :)

Cheers,
Magnus


From max at maxsmusicplace.com  Thu May  7 17:49:46 2009
From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 12:49:46 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl><4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506145023.0327be88@popper.lbl.gov><CD4F8AEB4EFC49278DEFC15303256D05@BACKROOM>
	<4A02C82A.6060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <774D2FB66BE24DE88B5C6D01236BB674@BACKROOM>

Magnus wrote.

Now, we just have to come up with the next topic to confuse you with.. :)

I'm not totally confused yet.  I guess you aren't trying hard enough. :)

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Magnus Danielson" <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 07, 2009 6:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 117A


> Max,
>
> Max Robinson skrev:
>> Mike wrote.
>>
>> Skin depth at 60 KHz is much larger than at HF frequencies,
>>
>> I knew that, why did I forget.  I must be getting old.
>
> Your not that old, it was just not up in the cache memory as you haven't 
> used that knowledge recently. If you really had forgot it, you would have 
> been asking why that could be or even worse, argued against such a 
> obviously stupid argument, which you didn't.
>
> So don't worry, you just needed some help to recall what you already know. 
> I make the same mistake over and over again, and it brings me no immediate 
> worry.
>
> Now, we just have to come up with the next topic to confuse you with.. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> 



From newell at cei.net  Thu May  7 22:41:34 2009
From: newell at cei.net (Scott Newell)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 17:41:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Hacker News link
Message-ID: <906098.31681.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

One of our very own got noticed today on Hacker News:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=598090




From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu May  7 23:36:02 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 01:36:02 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
In-Reply-To: <774D2FB66BE24DE88B5C6D01236BB674@BACKROOM>
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl><4.3.2.7.2.20090506131036.02789728@popper.lbl.gov>	<4.3.2.7.2.20090506145023.0327be88@popper.lbl.gov><CD4F8AEB4EFC49278DEFC15303256D05@BACKROOM>	<4A02C82A.6060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<774D2FB66BE24DE88B5C6D01236BB674@BACKROOM>
Message-ID: <4A037062.7060700@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Max Robinson skrev:
> Magnus wrote.
> 
> Now, we just have to come up with the next topic to confuse you with.. :)
> 
> I'm not totally confused yet.  I guess you aren't trying hard enough. :)

Now you are looking for it, but we want to take you off guard.

Cheers,
Magnus - awaiting a TAPR shipment


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Fri May  8 01:30:20 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 18:30:20 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Hacker News link
References: <906098.31681.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0FA64AB68FB444CE8B2B8792C93D1CC0@pc52>

> One of our very own got noticed today on Hacker News:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=598090

Yes, thanks, and also a large following on reddit today:
<http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8iiov/this_man_is_either_the_greatest_or_the_worst_dad/>

For those of you relatively new to time-nuts, the main page for
that cesium clock general relativity time-dilation experiment is:

http://www.leapsecond.com/great2005/

/tvb




From kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com  Fri May  8 04:06:17 2009
From: kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com (Brian Kirby)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2009 23:06:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
Message-ID: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>

seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200

nobody has bid and 21 hours left...

just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...


Brian KD4FM


From rdarlington at gmail.com  Fri May  8 04:17:25 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 22:17:25 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
References: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905072117s6247a42bte95544a9a5ade243@mail.gmail.com>

I need a new hobby where the things I want to bid on are not advertised to
potential buyers with such precision.  EVERY item I bid on that was
mentioned here went for far more than previous similar items.  That darn HP
3456A meter I wanted went for 2x the average!    Hehe, oh well, maybe next
time!

-Bob

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 10:06 PM, Brian Kirby <kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com>wrote:

> seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)
>
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200<http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A200>
>
> nobody has bid and 21 hours left...
>
> just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...
>
>
> Brian KD4FM
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From rk at timing-consultants.com  Fri May  8 08:03:39 2009
From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2009 09:03:39 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
References: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BFCB5108536457DA9F65E828C947EE3@robinHP>

FWIW - 5061A is going to be pretty old unit. At a guess 20+ years.

Rob K

 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Brian Kirby
Sent: 08 May 2009 05:06
To: precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium

seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)

http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitem
Z250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trks
id=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1
|293%3A1|294%3A200

nobody has bid and 21 hours left...

just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...


Brian KD4FM

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May  8 11:03:54 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 13:03:54 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Hacker News link
In-Reply-To: <0FA64AB68FB444CE8B2B8792C93D1CC0@pc52>
References: <906098.31681.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<0FA64AB68FB444CE8B2B8792C93D1CC0@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A04119A.3090804@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Tom Van Baak skrev:
>> One of our very own got noticed today on Hacker News:
>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=598090
> 
> Yes, thanks, and also a large following on reddit today:
> <http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8iiov/this_man_is_either_the_greatest_or_the_worst_dad/> 
> 
> 
> For those of you relatively new to time-nuts, the main page for
> that cesium clock general relativity time-dilation experiment is:
> 
> http://www.leapsecond.com/great2005/

Highly recommended!

Currently I am reading a biography of Einstein which I got on my 
birthday. That man had many types of struggles at all kinds of levels. 
The general relativity was one of them. Infact, his trusted friend 
Grossman put him on the right track years before (the Zurich notebook), 
but Einsteins preconception of how the result should be made him abandon 
that trail for a number of years. It's a lovely mess of Riemann and 
Ricci tensors. Digging around I learned that there is (quite) a few 
pieces of math I need to learn in order to really follow the calculations.

Cheers,
Magnus


From cfharris at erols.com  Fri May  8 13:10:03 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 09:10:03 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Hacker News link
In-Reply-To: <4A04119A.3090804@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <906098.31681.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<0FA64AB68FB444CE8B2B8792C93D1CC0@pc52>
	<4A04119A.3090804@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A042F2B.6060706@erols.com>

Hi Magnus,

Which biography are you reading?

The last one I read was by Walter Isaacson.  It was a very
good story of a very odd man.

-Chuck Harris

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Tom Van Baak skrev:
>>> One of our very own got noticed today on Hacker News:
>>> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=598090
>>
>> Yes, thanks, and also a large following on reddit today:
>> <http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/8iiov/this_man_is_either_the_greatest_or_the_worst_dad/> 
>>
>>
>> For those of you relatively new to time-nuts, the main page for
>> that cesium clock general relativity time-dilation experiment is:
>>
>> http://www.leapsecond.com/great2005/
> 
> Highly recommended!
> 
> Currently I am reading a biography of Einstein which I got on my 
> birthday. That man had many types of struggles at all kinds of levels. 
> The general relativity was one of them. Infact, his trusted friend 
> Grossman put him on the right track years before (the Zurich notebook), 
> but Einsteins preconception of how the result should be made him abandon 
> that trail for a number of years. It's a lovely mess of Riemann and 
> Ricci tensors. Digging around I learned that there is (quite) a few 
> pieces of math I need to learn in order to really follow the calculations.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May  8 13:21:22 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 15:21:22 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Hacker News link
In-Reply-To: <4A042F2B.6060706@erols.com>
References: <906098.31681.bm@omp203.mail.re3.yahoo.com>	<0FA64AB68FB444CE8B2B8792C93D1CC0@pc52>	<4A04119A.3090804@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<4A042F2B.6060706@erols.com>
Message-ID: <4A0431D2.7070807@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Dear Chuck,

Chuck Harris skrev:
> Hi Magnus,
> 
> Which biography are you reading?
> 
> The last one I read was by Walter Isaacson.  It was a very
> good story of a very odd man.

That's the one! Indeed a good story. Some of the drama can become a bit 
annoying, but it only helps to understand the kind of mess he got into.

I have the swedish translation.

Cheers,
Magnus


From ewkehren at aol.com  Fri May  8 16:53:00 2009
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ewkehren at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 12:53:00 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
References: <4A03AFB9.8040306@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CB9E149407EB5D-4C0-11D@FWM-M26.sysops.aol.com>

The cesium is from the same source as the two HP 5062. A friend of mine is selling them for me. I am in the process of cleaning house and that is also where the FTS1200 came from. More things are to come. I think this one is a later model because it has the newer power supply board and the DC cesium oven controller. I think it is the one unit. It should say in the description. I know I tested it, also measured beam current with the LF test. It des not have the two lights but during test they where installed and the pictures are of the actual unit. If you want to know any thing else please let me know.? Bert Kehren Miami


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Kirby <kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com>
To: precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:06 am
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium


seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)?
?
http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200?
?
nobody has bid and 21 hours left...?
?
just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...?
?
Brian KD4FM?
?
_______________________________________________?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
and follow the instructions there.?


From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Sat May  9 04:19:07 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 00:19:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
Message-ID: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

OK, dumb question time.

I have a few GPSDO's (Trimble T-Bolt, Z3801A, TrueTime & HB units).
How much better can the Cesium be than any of those ??

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
>From: ewkehren at aol.com
>Sent: May 8, 2009 12:53 PM
>To: time-nuts at febo.com
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
>
>The cesium is from the same source as the two HP 5062. A friend of mine is selling them for me. I am in the process of cleaning house and that is also where the FTS1200 came from. More things are to come. I think this one is a later model because it has the newer power supply board and the DC cesium oven controller. I think it is the one unit. It should say in the description. I know I tested it, also measured beam current with the LF test. It des not have the two lights but during test they where installed and the pictures are of the actual unit. If you want to know any thing else please let me know.? Bert Kehren Miami
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Brian Kirby <kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com>
>To: precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:06 am
>Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
>
>
>seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)?
>?
>http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200?
>?
>nobody has bid and 21 hours left...?
>?
>just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...?
>?
>Brian KD4FM?
>?
>_______________________________________________?
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
>and follow the instructions there.?
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From wb6bnq at cox.net  Sat May  9 06:48:35 2009
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2009 23:48:35 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
References: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A052743.7CA1D012@cox.net>

   Well Dick,

   Assuming it is setup and properly adjusted, it is absolute as a
   frequency reference by "definition."  It does have a given resolution
   as stated in the manufacturer's manual for the instrument.  This
   resolution [or noise floor as I see it] is due to a number of factors,
   not least of which is the condition of the physics package (the actual
   Cesium tube).  They do ware out !

   Time is another matter all together.  the 5061A has a rated accuracy of
   1 x 10^-11 and reproducibility of 5 x 10^-12.  Thus it can be
   considered that the unit drifts by 1 part in 10^-11 and that means the
   time is drifting by that much.  As time is relative you always have to
   compare against another clock to determine where you are relative to
   the other.

   You could own the very latest, top of the line Cesium (absolute to
   parts in 10^-13) and still have the time problem.  So it becomes a
   matter of what your needs are and your applications for which it is
   used as a reference.

   The manual for the hp 5061A is available via the Internet and if you
   can't find it let me know and I can send a copy.  It would do you well
   to read it and gain an understanding of its fundamentals.  There are
   other publications that would be worth studying; if you want or need
   those let me know as well.

   73....Bill....WB6BNQ

   "Richard W. Solomon" wrote:

     OK, dumb question time.

     I have a few GPSDO's (Trimble T-Bolt, Z3801A, TrueTime & HB units).
     How much better can the Cesium be than any of those ??

     73, Dick, W1KSZ

     -----Original Message-----
     >From: ewkehren at aol.com
     >Sent: May 8, 2009 12:53 PM
     >To: time-nuts at febo.com
     >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
     >
     >The cesium is from the same source as the two HP 5062. A friend of
     mine is selling them for me. I am in the process of cleaning house
     and that is also where the FTS1200 came from. More things are to
     come. I think this one is a later model because it has the newer
     power supply board and the DC cesium oven controller. I think it is
     the one unit. It should say in the description. I know I tested it,
     also measured beam current with the LF test. It des not have the two
     lights but during test they where installed and the pictures are of
     the actual unit. If you want to know any thing else please let me
     know.? Bert Kehren Miami
     >
     >
     >-----Original Message-----
     >From: Brian Kirby <kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com>
     >To: precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
     >Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:06 am
     >Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
     >
     >
     >seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)?
     >?
     >[1]http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORK
     ING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=
     item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A
     12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200?
     >?
     >nobody has bid and 21 hours left...?
     >?
     >just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...?
     >?
     >Brian KD4FM?
     >?
     >_______________________________________________?
     >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
     >To unsubscribe, go to
     [2]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
     >and follow the instructions there.?
     >
     >_______________________________________________
     >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
     >To unsubscribe, go to
     [3]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
     >and follow the instructions there.

     _______________________________________________
     time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
     To unsubscribe, go to
     [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
     and follow the instructions there.

References

   1. http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING_W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200
   2. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   3. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com  Sat May  9 06:53:01 2009
From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 07:53:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Solartron 7081 ROMs
In-Reply-To: <A6EA8E55F855492392EAF240D7D02215@APOLLO>
References: <A6EA8E55F855492392EAF240D7D02215@APOLLO>
Message-ID: <0529ADD996E044859469F3F74756B2CA@APOLLO>

An update - another rom reader/burner was able to read the ROM, and
replacing ALL the ROMs with new ones burnt from the originals brought the
meter back to life.  The original ROMs wouldn't work. 

So that's another truly fine piece of test equipment brought back from the
graveyard and good for another few decades :-).

Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of David C. Partridge
Sent: 28 April 2009 15:17
To: TekScopes at yahoogroups.com; TekScopes2 at yahoogroups.com;
hp_agilent_equipment at yahoogroups.com; 'Discussion of precise time and
frequency measurement'
Subject: [time-nuts] Solartron 7081 ROMs

This is a call to anyone who has a Solartron 7081 and has saved a copy of
their ROMs (if you haven't you may end up in the same boat as I am - the one
that's up the creek without a paddle).

One of the ROMs on my earthy processor board has died.



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May  9 09:17:32 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 11:17:32 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A052743.7CA1D012@cox.net>
References: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A052743.7CA1D012@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4A054A2C.3050201@rubidium.dyndns.org>

WB6BNQ skrev:
>    Well Dick,
> 
>    Assuming it is setup and properly adjusted, it is absolute as a
>    frequency reference by "definition."  It does have a given resolution
>    as stated in the manufacturer's manual for the instrument.  This
>    resolution [or noise floor as I see it] is due to a number of factors,
>    not least of which is the condition of the physics package (the actual
>    Cesium tube).  They do ware out !

Actually, Cesiums can both be offset in frequency and have drift 
components in them. There are a number of systematic issues to handle. 
The magnitude of these depends on how they are handled in the design as 
well as how they are maintained.

Also, general relativity comes in so the systematic error of running the 
clocks above the gravity of standard sea level acceleration comes into 
mind. For a relative comparision at that site it does not care that much 
usually.

There are many features of a Cesium beam which affects the precision, 
but none of them actually runs at the magical number, they are all 
skewed by the C-field and compensation for this needs to be done. 
However, while the C-field skew can be calculated, it is hard to know 
the actual C-field. Modern "digital" Cesiums use a mechanism to measure 
and stabilize the C-field by measuring the position of the nearby Rabi 
responses in addition to the central Rabi and Ramsey features. Such an 
approach can remove the major part of the frequency error traceable to 
that systematic issue. For older cesium beams you adjusted the current 
in the C-field to match up, so calibration to match frequency is needed.

Older Cesiums does not have this "digital" control loop, so it would be 
inaccurate to say that they by definition is sharp on. They are not and 
never really be sharp on.

There is a number of other stability issues of various forms to add onto 
this, but I think it is out of scope here.

Cheers,
Magnus


From wb6bnq at cox.net  Sat May  9 09:23:40 2009
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 02:23:40 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
References: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A052743.7CA1D012@cox.net> <4A054A2C.3050201@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A054B9C.4556F827@cox.net>

Magnus,

That is why I said ". . . setup and properly adjusted . . "

Bill....WB6BNQ


Magnus Danielson wrote:

> WB6BNQ skrev:
> >    Well Dick,
> >
> >    Assuming it is setup and properly adjusted, it is absolute as a
> >    frequency reference by "definition."  It does have a given resolution
> >    as stated in the manufacturer's manual for the instrument.  This
> >    resolution [or noise floor as I see it] is due to a number of factors,
> >    not least of which is the condition of the physics package (the actual
> >    Cesium tube).  They do ware out !
>
> Actually, Cesiums can both be offset in frequency and have drift
> components in them. There are a number of systematic issues to handle.
> The magnitude of these depends on how they are handled in the design as
> well as how they are maintained.
>
> Also, general relativity comes in so the systematic error of running the
> clocks above the gravity of standard sea level acceleration comes into
> mind. For a relative comparision at that site it does not care that much
> usually.
>
> There are many features of a Cesium beam which affects the precision,
> but none of them actually runs at the magical number, they are all
> skewed by the C-field and compensation for this needs to be done.
> However, while the C-field skew can be calculated, it is hard to know
> the actual C-field. Modern "digital" Cesiums use a mechanism to measure
> and stabilize the C-field by measuring the position of the nearby Rabi
> responses in addition to the central Rabi and Ramsey features. Such an
> approach can remove the major part of the frequency error traceable to
> that systematic issue. For older cesium beams you adjusted the current
> in the C-field to match up, so calibration to match frequency is needed.
>
> Older Cesiums does not have this "digital" control loop, so it would be
> inaccurate to say that they by definition is sharp on. They are not and
> never really be sharp on.
>
> There is a number of other stability issues of various forms to add onto
> this, but I think it is out of scope here.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From glennmaillist at bellsouth.net  Sat May  9 14:53:05 2009
From: glennmaillist at bellsouth.net (Glenn Little WB4UIV)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 10:53:05 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.
	earthlink.net>
References: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090509104655.0511eb40@mail.bellsouth.net>

When I was serving in the US Navy we quit using Rubidium standards 
for Submarine radio and started using Cesium standards.
We also had a pair of Cesium standards that were used for timing in 
the navigation system.
I was told that the change was due to the Cesium had better long term 
stability than the Rubidium standard.
Every three months we calculated the drift rate for both of the 
navigation standards. We used LORAN for the reference.
Radio sent their standards to the submarine tender calibration lab to 
be calibrated.
The problem that we had with the Cesium standards was tube life.
The tube can be very expensive.

73
Glenn
WB4UIV



At 12:19 AM 5/9/2009, you wrote:
>OK, dumb question time.
>
>I have a few GPSDO's (Trimble T-Bolt, Z3801A, TrueTime & HB units).
>How much better can the Cesium be than any of those ??
>
>73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
> >From: ewkehren at aol.com
> >Sent: May 8, 2009 12:53 PM
> >To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >Subject: Re: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
> >
> >The cesium is from the same source as the two HP 5062. A friend of 
> mine is selling them for me. I am in the process of cleaning house 
> and that is also where the FTS1200 came from. More things are to 
> come. I think this one is a later model because it has the newer 
> power supply board and the DC cesium oven controller. I think it is 
> the one unit. It should say in the description. I know I tested it, 
> also measured beam current with the LF test. It des not have the 
> two lights but during test they where installed and the pictures 
> are of the actual unit. If you want to know any thing else please 
> let me know.? Bert Kehren Miami
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Brian Kirby <kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com>
> >To: precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
> >Sent: Fri, 8 May 2009 12:06 am
> >Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
> >
> >
> >seems to be a decent price cesium for sale ($600 starting HP5061A)?
> >?
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/HP-5061A-Cesium-Beam-Frequency-Standard-WORKING 
> _W0QQitemZ250415440530QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3a4dec6292&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205|66%3A4|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A1|293%3A1|294%3A200?
> >?
> >nobody has bid and 21 hours left...?
> >?
> >just a heads up - I know nothing about the unit or the dealer...?
> >?
> >Brian KD4FM?
> >?
> >_______________________________________________?
> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
> >To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
> >and follow the instructions there.?
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From didier at cox.net  Sat May  9 15:00:37 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 10:00:37 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Manuals at ko4bb.com
Message-ID: <DA852EBF98FD47EA8D9716E47229D17D@d400>

I am back from vacation and the manuals that were uploaded last week have
been posted.

http://www.ko4bb.com/cgi-bin/manuals.pl

Thank you for your patience :)

Didier KO4BB



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May  9 15:33:02 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 17:33:02 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A054B9C.4556F827@cox.net>
References: <13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>	<4A052743.7CA1D012@cox.net>
	<4A054A2C.3050201@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A054B9C.4556F827@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4A05A22E.8090501@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Bill,

WB6BNQ skrev:
> Magnus,
> 
> That is why I said ". . . setup and properly adjusted . . "

If done with care, you are closer, but it will not handle dynamics in 
the environment as a feedback locked system does, which is a better cure 
altogether.

Cheers,
Magnus


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 10 00:11:22 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 17:11:22 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard W. Solomon" <w1ksz@earthlink.net> of "Sat,
	09 May 2009 00:19:07 EDT."
	<13916019.1241842747747.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20090510001123.017A0BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> I have a few GPSDO's (Trimble T-Bolt, Z3801A, TrueTime & HB units).
> How much better can the Cesium be than any of those ??

Here is another viewpoint...  (I don't own a Cesium (but I'm looking) so my 
opinions may not be relevant.)

What are you after?  What is important to you?

Under the covers, a "Cesium" is just a CesiumDO with the PLL parameters tuned 
to take advantage of what the Cesium tube can deliver.  The basic time 
constant is sub-second vs many-seconds for a GPSDO.

If you are nutty enough, the GPSDO numbers don't really match what a Cesium 
can deliver in the medium term time scale, say 1000-10000 seconds.  I'm 
pretty sure I've seen graphs of GPS time shifting slightly from night to day 
due to atmospheric changes.  A Cesium won't do that.

On the other hand, a GPSDO won't have any long term drift.  It's locked to 
the best time we can get.  If you wait long enough a Cesium will drift.  Not 
very fast, but it will drift.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From wb6bnq at cox.net  Sun May 10 00:54:46 2009
From: wb6bnq at cox.net (WB6BNQ)
Date: Sat, 09 May 2009 17:54:46 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
References: <20090510001123.017A0BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A0625D6.4940D280@cox.net>



Lets try to put this into perspective !   Using the specs from the OLD hp 5061A
which says it is intrinsically accurate to 1 part in 10^-11 means the following
assuming it is exactly in error by a stable value of 1 x 10^-11 from the agreed
upon central value :

1 x 10^-11 = 10 picoseconds offset

If all you are doing is trying to keep your clock accurate to the one second
level means it will take the following amount of time to accumulate a one second
error in 10 picosecond increments:

100,000,000,000       seconds or
1,666,666,666.6667   minutes or
27,777,777.7778       hours    or
1,157,407,40741       days     or
3,170.97919838        years

Plus or minus a little here and there as obviously the minutes, hours, days and
years are not even numbers.

So the extremely small drift may not even be noticable depending upon what you
are doing.

Bill....WB6BNQ



Hal Murray wrote:

> > I have a few GPSDO's (Trimble T-Bolt, Z3801A, TrueTime & HB units).
> > How much better can the Cesium be than any of those ??
>
> Here is another viewpoint...  (I don't own a Cesium (but I'm looking) so my
> opinions may not be relevant.)
>
> What are you after?  What is important to you?
>
> Under the covers, a "Cesium" is just a CesiumDO with the PLL parameters tuned
> to take advantage of what the Cesium tube can deliver.  The basic time
> constant is sub-second vs many-seconds for a GPSDO.
>
> If you are nutty enough, the GPSDO numbers don't really match what a Cesium
> can deliver in the medium term time scale, say 1000-10000 seconds.  I'm
> pretty sure I've seen graphs of GPS time shifting slightly from night to day
> due to atmospheric changes.  A Cesium won't do that.
>
> On the other hand, a GPSDO won't have any long term drift.  It's locked to
> the best time we can get.  If you wait long enough a Cesium will drift.  Not
> very fast, but it will drift.
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From holrum at hotmail.com  Sun May 10 03:39:09 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 03:39:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1241870401.11840.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1241870401.11840.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W39BE9A244C952B735F3879CE620@phx.gbl>


Lady Heather's GPS Disciplined Oscillator Control Program has been upgraded to version 2.0

It is available from John Miles' site at:http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup.exe

The new version adds many new features including the ability to view data at different time scales,  calculate HDEVs, MDEVs, and TDEVs (including a mode to display/plot all versions of the adevs at the same time),  read in and write log files,  adjust oscillator disciplining parameters,  zoom in/out on a graph with the click of a mouse,  etc.  DOS mode users can use EMS memory for extended ADEV intervals.

The new version did change some of the command line parameters and keyboard commands.  You may need to tweak your startup command profile.  You should check the readme file and online help ("heather /?" and "?" from the keyboard) for more info.  Also check the change info in heather.cpp for more detailed info on the changes (and a couple of undocumented features).

Many thanks to John for his Windows port and help.




_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From jmiles at pop.net  Sun May 10 06:06:53 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 23:06:53 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W39BE9A244C952B735F3879CE620@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKAPAC.jmiles@pop.net>

I think an extra '.' found its way into that link:
http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup.exe 

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Mark Sims
> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:39 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
> 
> 
> 
> Lady Heather's GPS Disciplined Oscillator Control Program has 
> been upgraded to version 2.0
> 
> It is available from John Miles' site 
> at:http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup..exe
> 
> The new version adds many new features including the ability to 
> view data at different time scales,  calculate HDEVs, MDEVs, and 
> TDEVs (including a mode to display/plot all versions of the adevs 
> at the same time),  read in and write log files,  adjust 
> oscillator disciplining parameters,  zoom in/out on a graph with 
> the click of a mouse,  etc.  DOS mode users can use EMS memory 
> for extended ADEV intervals.
> 
> The new version did change some of the command line parameters 
> and keyboard commands.  You may need to tweak your startup 
> command profile.  You should check the readme file and online 
> help ("heather /?" and "?" from the keyboard) for more info.  
> Also check the change info in heather.cpp for more detailed info 
> on the changes (and a couple of undocumented features).
> 
> Many thanks to John for his Windows port and help.
> 


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 10 08:47:47 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 10:47:47 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] fleabay cesium
In-Reply-To: <4A0625D6.4940D280@cox.net>
References: <20090510001123.017A0BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<4A0625D6.4940D280@cox.net>
Message-ID: <4A0694B3.8070809@rubidium.dyndns.org>

WB6BNQ skrev:
> 
> Lets try to put this into perspective !   Using the specs from the OLD hp 5061A
> which says it is intrinsically accurate to 1 part in 10^-11 means the following
> assuming it is exactly in error by a stable value of 1 x 10^-11 from the agreed
> upon central value :
> 
> 1 x 10^-11 = 10 picoseconds offset

This is when we should have looked at the TDEV charts rather than the 
ADEV charts and include linear terms for the full prediction.

Cheers,
Magnus


From lasse.moell at swipnet.se  Sun May 10 09:40:39 2009
From: lasse.moell at swipnet.se (Lasse)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 11:40:39 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Help needed: Jupiter-T TU60-D120
Message-ID: <4A06A117.8050909@swipnet.se>

I got a Jupiter-T TU60 off eBay and my intentions are (was) to get a 
diciplined oscillator running.
Somehow I expected it to be pretty similar (command wise) to a TU-30 
wich is up and running here, but must have missed the information that
it starts in Motorola Bin??

My TU60 will just say "ff 81 9c 04 01 00 00 00 64 79 00 00 00 00"  at 
power-up (Message ID 1180) once, then nothing.
After installing TAC32 (demo) yesterday I managed (don't ask me how) get 
the uint running, everything looked OK,  I then wanted to put it inot 
Navman Bin mode. This should be safe as according to datasheet as it 
will revert to Motorola commands when cycling the power. After trying 
@@Wb, but nothing from Labmon/WinLabmon, and  now TAC32 cannot get in 
contact with the GPS,
I let the GPS be off power over night but it sill refuses to connect to 
TAC32.

Have I put my Jupiter in a mode that I cannot revert? It still reports 
the MessageID 1180 at power-on.
Or was I just plain lucky once to somhow fool TAC32 to get the Jupiter 
to run?

Any hints or comments are most welcome!

/Lasse



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 10 17:48:02 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 10:48:02 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
Message-ID: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>

I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it. This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could attach to a small camcorder, or such).

Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering if someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a IRIG encoder in a PIC or similar)..

Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone recording something else)

I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..

(It's for a high school science project, where they want to record various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)

Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)

Jim Lux

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 10 18:21:58 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:21:58 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A071B46.40404@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Lux, James P skrev:
> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can
> be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it.
> This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS
> based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could
> attach to a small camcorder, or such).

Traditionally SMPTE 12M LTC is being used for this purpose. For most 
cases it is only known as LTC but SMPTE/EBU time code is among other 
names fairly common name.

> Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering if
> someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a IRIG
> encoder in a PIC or similar)..

I actually have a GPS with IRIG-B output in about the same size of a 
Thunderbolt. If you have your own encoder in the form of a PIC/AVR then 
maybe producing SMPTE LTC should be better or at least considered as an 
alternative output.

> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time
> with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone
> recording something else)
> 
> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds
> (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..

SMPTE LTC encodes the frame numbers.

> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record
> various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with
> looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)

SMPTE LTC should be preferred in that case, as it is something that 
editing equipment understands.

> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no
> suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and
> feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)

Locking the camera with a black burst GENLOCK signal with VITC does need 
to be done, but the LTC may very well be practical for the purpose.

BTW. Cameras lacking GENLOCK is highly annoying, especially when they 
have el cheapo crystals... el cheapo crystals is fine, as long as they 
lock up to a GENLOCK when needed.

Cheers,
Magnus


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 10 18:57:05 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 11:57:05 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <4A071B46.40404@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <C62C7191.7A1C%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/10/09 11:21 AM, "Magnus Danielson" <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Lux, James P skrev:
>> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can
>> be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it.
>> This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS
>> based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could
>> attach to a small camcorder, or such).
> 
> Traditionally SMPTE 12M LTC is being used for this purpose. For most
> cases it is only known as LTC but SMPTE/EBU time code is among other
> names fairly common name.
> 
Yes.. But most consumer recorders (e.g. The cheap AIPtek) don't do timecode
(or genlock, or other useful stuff)..

So what they're really looking for is someway to time align after the fact.

> I actually have a GPS with IRIG-B output in about the same size of a
> Thunderbolt.

Is that an off the shelf, not hideously expensive, widget?  (There are other
applications...)
> 
>> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time
>> with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone
>> recording something else)
>> 
>> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds
>> (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
> 
> SMPTE LTC encodes the frame numbers.
> 
>> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record
>> various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with
>> looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
> 
> SMPTE LTC should be preferred in that case, as it is something that
> editing equipment understands.

I don't think "real" editing gear is in the cards.  Probably more like
iMovie or something on a PC.

As a model for what they're trying to do, say you were going to measure the
acceleration due to gravity by videotaping a falling object against a scale
in the background. Except that the motion is more complex.. Maybe imagine
putting an accelerometer in the "payload" of a trebuchet... And you want to
time align the position of the trebuchet components (from the video) with
the forces on the payload. That's not what they're doing, but now that I
describe it, that WOULD be a cool science project.  And get away from the
"here, I built a trebuchet and launched a projectile X meters" which is kind
of tired.  (get one of those analog devices 3 axis accelerometers, hook it
to a suitable datalogger..)


> 
>> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no
>> suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and
>> feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
> 
> Locking the camera with a black burst GENLOCK signal with VITC does need
> to be done, but the LTC may very well be practical for the purpose.
> 
> BTW. Cameras lacking GENLOCK is highly annoying, especially when they
> have el cheapo crystals... el cheapo crystals is fine, as long as they
> lock up to a GENLOCK when needed.


That pretty well describes just about everything they'll have available.


> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 10 19:10:32 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:10:32 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: Message from "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux@jpl.nasa.gov> of "Sun,
	10 May 2009 11:57:05 PDT." <C62C7191.7A1C%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov> 
Message-ID: <20090510191033.D10A4BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> As a model for what they're trying to do, say you were going to
> measure the acceleration due to gravity by videotaping a falling
> object against a scale in the background. Except that the motion is
> more complex.. Maybe imagine putting an accelerometer in the "payload"
> of a trebuchet... And you want to time align the position of the
> trebuchet components (from the video) with the forces on the payload.
> That's not what they're doing, but now that I describe it, that WOULD
> be a cool science project.  And get away from the "here, I built a
> trebuchet and launched a projectile X meters" which is kind of tired.
> (get one of those analog devices 3 axis accelerometers, hook it to a
> suitable datalogger..) 

For something like that, you could:
  start the camera
  start the recorder in the payload
  whack the payload with a stick to inject a calibration marker
    (the stick has to be visible in the camera)
  maybe re-aim the camera
  launch the payload...

 

-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From brooke at pacific.net  Sun May 10 19:15:07 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 12:15:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A0727BB.7050608@pacific.net>

Hi James:

You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time 
stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image and 
so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to 
calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a 
number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



Lux, James P wrote:
> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it. This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could attach to a small camcorder, or such).
>
> Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering if someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a IRIG encoder in a PIC or similar)..
>
> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone recording something else)
>
> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
>
> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
>
> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
>
> Jim Lux
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 10 19:36:54 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:36:54 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62C7191.7A1C%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62C7191.7A1C%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A072CD6.9050605@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Lux, James P skrev:
> 
> 
> On 5/10/09 11:21 AM, "Magnus Danielson" <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
>> Lux, James P skrev:
>>> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can
>>> be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it.
>>> This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS
>>> based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could
>>> attach to a small camcorder, or such).
>> Traditionally SMPTE 12M LTC is being used for this purpose. For most
>> cases it is only known as LTC but SMPTE/EBU time code is among other
>> names fairly common name.
>>
> Yes.. But most consumer recorders (e.g. The cheap AIPtek) don't do timecode
> (or genlock, or other useful stuff)..

They should be hackable thought.

> So what they're really looking for is someway to time align after the fact.

This does not prohibit you from just recording the LTC onto the 
soundtrack anyway.

>> I actually have a GPS with IRIG-B output in about the same size of a
>> Thunderbolt.
> 
> Is that an off the shelf, not hideously expensive, widget?  (There are other
> applications...)

I bought one of those Brandywine GPS4 devices as announced available on 
the list not too long ago. Not hideously expensive IMHO.

>>> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time
>>> with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone
>>> recording something else)
>>>
>>> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds
>>> (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
>> SMPTE LTC encodes the frame numbers.
>>
>>> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record
>>> various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with
>>> looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
>> SMPTE LTC should be preferred in that case, as it is something that
>> editing equipment understands.
> 
> I don't think "real" editing gear is in the cards.  Probably more like
> iMovie or something on a PC.

There should be editing gear that chews LTC over audio-interface. We did 
frame-grabbing tricks with a cheap video-recorder, LTC on audio track 
and an SGI Indy back in the days... and a remote hacked with CMOS 
switches steered by a DTMF decoder so the Indy played DTMF tone-pairs on 
the port, real-time decoded LTC and frame-grabbed 10 frames at the time, 
rewinded, played again etc. Some of the cheap/free programmes would be 
able to decode LTC and tag the pictures accordingly.

> As a model for what they're trying to do, say you were going to measure the
> acceleration due to gravity by videotaping a falling object against a scale
> in the background. Except that the motion is more complex.. Maybe imagine
> putting an accelerometer in the "payload" of a trebuchet... And you want to
> time align the position of the trebuchet components (from the video) with
> the forces on the payload. That's not what they're doing, but now that I
> describe it, that WOULD be a cool science project.  And get away from the
> "here, I built a trebuchet and launched a projectile X meters" which is kind
> of tired.  (get one of those analog devices 3 axis accelerometers, hook it
> to a suitable datalogger..)

In that case you want the line-frequency locked or traceable by other 
means. You have more use for the frequency aspect than time-notation 
actually, which is more handy for a matter logging which event. Still, 
LTC should be easier to get locked to the phase attached to the frames, 
as the infrastructure is expected to be there for some apps, but the 
IRIG-B support is not expected to be there.

If you do not hack the camera to accept a reference signal (hacking the 
crystal oscillator may be all you need to do), after the fact frequency 
calibration can be done with either IRIG-B, LTC or just a 1 kHz sine.

>>> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no
>>> suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and
>>> feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
>> Locking the camera with a black burst GENLOCK signal with VITC does need
>> to be done, but the LTC may very well be practical for the purpose.
>>
>> BTW. Cameras lacking GENLOCK is highly annoying, especially when they
>> have el cheapo crystals... el cheapo crystals is fine, as long as they
>> lock up to a GENLOCK when needed.
> 
> 
> That pretty well describes just about everything they'll have available.

Well, the two initial strategies is to either hack the cameras and 
replace the XO with a VCXO which locks to a 10 Mhz. Usually it is 27 MHz 
  and relationship to 10 MHz is fairly trivial. After the fact 
synchronisation using a 1 kHz signal (such as given by TADD-2, tvb 
PIC-div or something) into the audio signal would also do, if only the 
audio sample rate and the video rate is locked in the el cheapo camera, 
which one can hope for at least.

Cheers,
Magnus


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun May 10 20:51:31 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 20:51:31 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS L5 received, according to Javad
Message-ID: <3305.1241988691@critter.freebsd.dk>


http://www.javad.com/jgnss/javad/news/pr20090424.html

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From brooke at pacific.net  Sun May 10 21:46:38 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 14:46:38 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS L5 received, according to Javad
In-Reply-To: <3305.1241988691@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <3305.1241988691@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A074B3E.3060707@pacific.net>

Hi Poul:

That should allow better determination of the propagation path length 
when combined with the L1 C/A signal.
Next year when L1CS, L1CM, L1CL, L2CS, L2CM and L2CL signals are added 
it's going to really get interesting.

Does Javad make a timing receiver?

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> http://www.javad.com/jgnss/javad/news/pr20090424.html
>
>   


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sun May 10 21:51:26 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:51:26 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <4A0727BB.7050608@pacific.net>
References: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
	<4A0727BB.7050608@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <4A074C5E.3010103@xtra.co.nz>

Brooke

The KIWI-OSD is no longer available.
However some circuit detail is available at:
http://spiff.rit.edu/richmond/ritobs/kiwi/kiwi.html

It really should be reworked to use a more reliable time source such as
a GPS timing receiver.

Bruce

Brooke Clarke wrote:
> Hi James:
>
> You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time
> stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image
> and so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to
> calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a
> number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
> http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.prc68.com
>
>
>
> Lux, James P wrote:
>> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can
>> be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it.
>> This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with
>> GPS based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you
>> could attach to a small camcorder, or such).
>>
>> Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering if
>> someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a IRIG
>> encoder in a PIC or similar)..
>>
>> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time
>> with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone
>> recording something else)
>>
>> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds
>> (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
>>
>> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record
>> various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with
>> looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
>>
>> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no
>> suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and
>> feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
>>
>> Jim Lux
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From bg at lysator.liu.se  Sun May 10 21:58:55 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:58:55 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS L5 received, according to Javad
In-Reply-To: <4A074B3E.3060707@pacific.net>
References: <3305.1241988691@critter.freebsd.dk> <4A074B3E.3060707@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <59042.87.227.52.225.1241992735.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

Hi Brooke,

> Hi Poul:
>
> That should allow better determination of the propagation path length
> when combined with the L1 C/A signal.
> Next year when L1CS, L1CM, L1CL, L2CS, L2CM and L2CL signals are added
> it's going to really get interesting.
>
> Does Javad make a timing receiver?

Yes. You pay about $600 extra for the Frequency Input option.

   http://www.javad.com/cgi-bin/jgnss/cgi?Action=Buy&ProductID=663

--

   Bj?rn



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 10 22:56:49 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:56:49 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <20090510191033.D10A4BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <C62CA9C1.7A29%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/10/09 12:10 PM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

> 
> 
>> As a model for what they're trying to do, say you were going to
>> measure the acceleration due to gravity by videotaping a falling
>> object against a scale in the background. Except that the motion is
>> more complex.. Maybe imagine putting an accelerometer in the "payload"
>> of a trebuchet... And you want to time align the position of the
>> trebuchet components (from the video) with the forces on the payload.
>> That's not what they're doing, but now that I describe it, that WOULD
>> be a cool science project.  And get away from the "here, I built a
>> trebuchet and launched a projectile X meters" which is kind of tired.
>> (get one of those analog devices 3 axis accelerometers, hook it to a
>> suitable datalogger..)
> 
> For something like that, you could:
>   start the camera
>   start the recorder in the payload
>   whack the payload with a stick to inject a calibration marker
>     (the stick has to be visible in the camera)
>   maybe re-aim the camera
>   launch the payload...
> 
> 
> 
Yes.. This is called a "slate" or "clapper board" in the movie trade.



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 10 22:57:54 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 15:57:54 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <4A0727BB.7050608@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <C62CAA02.7A2B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/10/09 12:15 PM, "Brooke Clarke" <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:

> Hi James:
> 
> You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time
> stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image and
> so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to
> calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a
> number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
> http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm
> 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke

Yes, but that requires getting access to the video stream, which isn't easy
in a "camcorder" environment.  Separate video recorders actually cost more
than camcorders.



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 10 23:26:09 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 01:26:09 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62CAA02.7A2B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62CAA02.7A2B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A076291.9050309@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Lux, James P skrev:
> 
> 
> On 5/10/09 12:15 PM, "Brooke Clarke" <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:
> 
>> Hi James:
>>
>> You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time
>> stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image and
>> so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to
>> calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a
>> number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
>> http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm
>>
>> Have Fun,
>>
>> Brooke Clarke
> 
> Yes, but that requires getting access to the video stream, which isn't easy
> in a "camcorder" environment.  Separate video recorders actually cost more
> than camcorders.

What precision of anything do you need?

Expect 50-100 ppm oscillators in there.

Recorded material is compressed. Consider how that affects your readout.
Recorded material is said progressive/interlaced. This may not reflect 
how the CCD is snapshot and readout. You may not have the expected 1125 
or 750 lines per frame, and exactly what frame rate do you have?

Cheers,
Magnus


From namichie at gmail.com  Sun May 10 23:46:44 2009
From: namichie at gmail.com (Neville Michie)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:46:44 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62C6162.7A17%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <C513C87D-4700-48C5-AE8E-CF69173886B1@gmail.com>

Hi,
  low tech solution may be to produce second pips of audio with long  
one minute pips,
a bit like WWV, and inject them into the mic plug (in parallel to the  
mic) or use a small speaker.
That together with a clap-board start should enable any frame to be  
timed.
cheers, Neville Michie


On 11/05/2009, at 3:48 AM, Lux, James P wrote:

> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that  
> can be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time  
> stamp it. This is so it can be aligned with other data that's  
> collected with GPS based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e.  
> Something you could attach to a small camcorder, or such).
>
> Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering  
> if someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a  
> IRIG encoder in a PIC or similar)..
>
> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate  
> time with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an  
> iPhone recording something else)
>
> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds  
> (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
>
> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record  
> various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with  
> looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
>
> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no  
> suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and  
> feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
>
> Jim Lux
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ 
> time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 10 23:47:59 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 16:47:59 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <4A076291.9050309@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <C62CB5BF.7A2F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/10/09 4:26 PM, "Magnus Danielson" <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:

> Lux, James P skrev:
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/10/09 12:15 PM, "Brooke Clarke" <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi James:
>>> 
>>> You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time
>>> stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image and
>>> so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to
>>> calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a
>>> number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
>>> http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm
>>> 
>>> Have Fun,
>>> 
>>> Brooke Clarke
>> 
>> Yes, but that requires getting access to the video stream, which isn't easy
>> in a "camcorder" environment.  Separate video recorders actually cost more
>> than camcorders.
> 
> What precision of anything do you need?
> 
> Expect 50-100 ppm oscillators in there.
> 

Yes, but probably fairly good in the short run, and if you were recording
almost any sync signal (e.g. The 1kHz sine) you could calibrate that out.

> 
> 
> 
> Recorded material is compressed. Consider how that affects your readout.
> Recorded material is said progressive/interlaced. This may not reflect
> how the CCD is snapshot and readout. You may not have the expected 1125
> or 750 lines per frame, and exactly what frame rate do you have?

I think that's something they'll need to experiment with...

Jim



From max at maxsmusicplace.com  Mon May 11 03:24:28 2009
From: max at maxsmusicplace.com (Max Robinson)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 22:24:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A Manual.
References: <mailman.5.1241265601.10507.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W26BD3682EDD02AB43E00C5CE6B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4B0C6C5633704371979FAC1F2703E517@BACKROOM>

Hi All.

I now have the HP 117A but I find it has been modified for a 12 volt 
antenna.  Looking inside I find a 3 terminal regulator that could be a 
factory mod except it is on perf board.  Judging by the wires that come out 
of the harness I would say there used to be something in that place.  The 
voltage coming to the regulator is about 33 volts but the seller informs me 
that there is an antenna voltage adjustment.  I suppose the voltage was set 
to minimum to reduce dissipation in the regulator.  I am wondering what went 
where that regulator is now.  Maybe a thermistor to limit the inrush current 
to the antenna?  I am hesitant to just take out the regulator and solder the 
ends of the wires together, excluding the ground of course.  If anyone has a 
manual you have already scanned I would appreciate receiving it.

Regards.

Max.  K 4 O D S.

Email: max at maxsmusicplace.com

Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net
Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net
Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com

To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to,
funwithtubes-subscribe at yahoogroups.com

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 02, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Chart recorder consumables (was HP 117 paper)



Don't know what it fits,  but it's cheap....  Ebay item 120412680477.  It is 
apparently 6" wide, trac drive.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




From dmw at weiten.com  Mon May 11 04:13:29 2009
From: dmw at weiten.com (Dean Weiten)
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 23:13:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
Message-ID: <4A07A5E9.4050303@weiten.com>

Hi there,

It turns out that the NTP package has a built-in utility called "tg"
which can generate IRIG-B time code.  I'm not familiar with what you are
trying to do.  If you have a computer that is keeping accurate time
(through your GPS clock??), you can generate a nice audio IRIG-B.  It
was developed to allow testing of the NTP IRIG-B **input** function. 
NTP has a bunch of front ends for all kinds of code inputs.

I played with tg from NTP 4.2.2p3 quite extensively some time ago, and
created a version with a bunch more options, including IEEE 1344
extensions, and corrected a couple of bugs etc.  Also, I play a bit with
the timing to allow "tg" to omit or insert strategic single cycles to
correct for the clock error on the audio card.   Plus much more, mostly
to help me test an IRIG-B decoder. 

Oh yes, I also did a bunch of adjustments to the WWV(H) output option
from "tg".  Not many folks care about WWV(H) any more, though :-)

I'm not sure if any of you would be interested in this modified "tg". 
Let me know if you do.  I had submitted it to the NTP gurus some time
ago, and they didn't seem too terribly interested.

Regards,

Dean Weiten.


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 11 07:31:49 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 00:31:49 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: Message from Dean Weiten <dmw@weiten.com> 
	of "Sun, 10 May 2009 23:13:29 CDT." <4A07A5E9.4050303@weiten.com> 
Message-ID: <20090511073150.8D5FBBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> I'm not sure if any of you would be interested in this modified "tg".
> Let me know if you do.  I had submitted it to the NTP gurus some time
> ago, and they didn't seem too terribly interested. 

If anybody has bug fixes or enhancements to the ntp code base, I'll be glad 
to help get them merged into the official distribution package.  Contact me 
off list.




-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon May 11 08:20:45 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:20:45 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <C62CB5BF.7A2F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C62CB5BF.7A2F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A07DFDD.7070900@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Lux, James P skrev:
> 
> 
> On 5/10/09 4:26 PM, "Magnus Danielson" <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
>> Lux, James P skrev:
>>>
>>> On 5/10/09 12:15 PM, "Brooke Clarke" <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi James:
>>>>
>>>> You might want to get a KIWI-OSD, Video overlay of GPS precision time
>>>> stamp.  It adds HH:MM:SS EEEE OOOO FFFFFF at the bottom of the image and
>>>> so can be seen in every field.  They have also developed a way to
>>>> calibrate the camera shutter in relation to the frame time by using a
>>>> number of LEDs.  The main use if for star occulation timing.
>>>> http://www.geocities.com/kiwi_36_nz/kiwi_osd/kiwi_osd.htm
>>>>
>>>> Have Fun,
>>>>
>>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> Yes, but that requires getting access to the video stream, which isn't easy
>>> in a "camcorder" environment.  Separate video recorders actually cost more
>>> than camcorders.
>> What precision of anything do you need?
>>
>> Expect 50-100 ppm oscillators in there.
>>
> 
> Yes, but probably fairly good in the short run, and if you were recording
> almost any sync signal (e.g. The 1kHz sine) you could calibrate that out.

Certainly, this is what I expect.

A very simple approach is to pull the audio-track down and post-process 
it with say Matlab/Octave to pull out the frequency, if it is 1 ppm low 
then the sampling rate was 1 ppm high. That's about all the things you 
need to know from that I think.

>> Recorded material is compressed. Consider how that affects your readout.
>> Recorded material is said progressive/interlaced. This may not reflect
>> how the CCD is snapshot and readout. You may not have the expected 1125
>> or 750 lines per frame, and exactly what frame rate do you have?
> 
> I think that's something they'll need to experiment with...

Indeed. I think a pair of (fast) diodes blinking at some adjustable rate 
and some motor rotating a pointer or something at a rate of 1 or a few 
turns a second should be interesting objects to test on. They should 
both be able to illustrate interlaced/progressive scanning and rate of 
line-scanning/snapshot. The rotating object is easier to understand for 
students while the blinking diodes can require a little more involved 
discussions. Maybe three or four in a row would even more illustrative 
since you can make the rate such that every other should be dark if you 
adjust the frequency just right.

I think grey-scale contrast should be at about the maximum for best 
result, since both vertical and horizontal sub-rate sampling can exist. 
Keeping the picture free of other distractions can also allow the 
bit-budget to be directed to the object of interest.

For your purpose I think progressive scan would be the best, if available.

Cheers,
Magnus


From gpbatey at wildblue.net  Mon May 11 14:10:46 2009
From: gpbatey at wildblue.net (Gordon Batey)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:10:46 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A
Message-ID: <7131B38CB1B34C58B69DFA01D886188C@ets48dae0fccff>

Greetings to all of the timekeepers on the list.  I have been enjoying the
discussions here for some time.  

I am attempting to get an HP-117A VLF Comparator operational.  I had to
change an electrolytic cap in the active antenna and now have a strong
signal into the receiver.  I have a problem with the A-7 (00117-6020) plug
in board.  This is the same as the A-5 board.  The 60 Kc filter in the times
3 multiplier is not working reliably.  I suspect the transformers T-1
(00117-8004) or T-2 (00117-8005).   Does anyone know where I could get an
additional A-5 or A-7 board or the transformers or a second unit (working or
not)??  Any help would certainly be appreciated.  

I picked up some chart paper at a yard sale labeled as follows:  Mfg
Amprobe;  part numbers 300 SWA and 830W which appear to be the correct size
for the 117A.  I have not yet tried it though.  

I do have the actual manual and plastic overlay charts which I could copy if
there is an interest.  

Reply to WA4FJC at arrl.net or GPBATEY at wildblue.net
<mailto:GPBATEY at compuserve.net> 

Gordon

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From nordlie at rwic.und.edu  Mon May 11 15:29:31 2009
From: nordlie at rwic.und.edu (John Nordlie)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:29:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>


> 
> I'm looking for a way to take GPS time and generate a signal that can be recorded on the audio track of a video recording to time stamp it. This is so it can be aligned with other data that's collected with GPS based time.  It needs to be portable/small (i.e. Something you could attach to a small camcorder, or such).
> 
> Seems that a GPS->IRIG B interface would work, but I was wondering if someone has done this already (e.g. Someone must have made a IRIG encoder in a PIC or similar)..
> 
> Another alternate is if something like a iPhone records accurate time with the video stream. (another of the data sources is an iPhone recording something else)
> 
> I think the basic requirement is accuracy to some few milliseconds (e.g. Frame rate of the video)..
> 
> (It's for a high school science project, where they want to record various things, and line them up.. I think they could deal with looking at the timestamps over many frames to do interpolation)
> 
> Anyway, cheap and cheerful consumer gear is what is sought. (so no suggestions of synthesizing SMPTE from the output of my Z3801 and feeding it to a RED camera.. We're talking AIPtek and iPhone here..)
> 
> Jim Lux

Maybe this is what you're looking for:

http://www.redhensystems.com/



From mccorkle at ptialaska.net  Mon May 11 17:23:30 2009
From: mccorkle at ptialaska.net (Richard H McCorkle)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:23:30 -0800 (AKDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Help needed: Jupiter-T TU60-D120
In-Reply-To: <4A06A117.8050909@swipnet.se>
References: <4A06A117.8050909@swipnet.se>
Message-ID: <17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>

Lasse,

If you are getting a Message ID 1180 at power-on you are in Navman bin
mode and the EEPROM power-on default has been set to this mode. You need
to send Message ID 1331 using LabMon to set it back to Motorola protocol
before TAC32 can talk to it.

Richard


> I got a Jupiter-T TU60 off eBay and my intentions are (was) to get a
> diciplined oscillator running.
> Somehow I expected it to be pretty similar (command wise) to a TU-30
> wich is up and running here, but must have missed the information that
> it starts in Motorola Bin??
>
> My TU60 will just say "ff 81 9c 04 01 00 00 00 64 79 00 00 00 00"  at
> power-up (Message ID 1180) once, then nothing.
> After installing TAC32 (demo) yesterday I managed (don't ask me how) get
> the uint running, everything looked OK,  I then wanted to put it inot
> Navman Bin mode. This should be safe as according to datasheet as it
> will revert to Motorola commands when cycling the power. After trying
> @@Wb, but nothing from Labmon/WinLabmon, and  now TAC32 cannot get in
> contact with the GPS,
> I let the GPS be off power over night but it sill refuses to connect to
> TAC32.
>
> Have I put my Jupiter in a mode that I cannot revert? It still reports
> the MessageID 1180 at power-on.
> Or was I just plain lucky once to somhow fool TAC32 to get the Jupiter
> to run?
>
> Any hints or comments are most welcome!
>
> /Lasse
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon May 11 19:47:11 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 19:47:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
Message-ID: <23699.1242071231@critter.freebsd.dk>


I tried the other day to follow a calibration procedure in a HP
service manual and was severely tempted to print all the 350 pages
of it because clearly using pdf files on a laptop sucks when you
have one hand on the probe...

Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is any good for such use ?

I know the display is around 200 dpi resolution, but I wonder if
the screen-size is too small for it to matter ?

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Mon May 11 20:37:24 2009
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:37:24 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
Message-ID: <d4c.3fc2b485.3739e684@aol.com>

 
In a message dated 11/05/2009 20:48:12 GMT Daylight Time,  
phk at phk.freebsd.dk writes:

I tried  the other day to follow a calibration procedure in a HP
service manual and  was severely tempted to print all the 350 pages
of it because clearly using  pdf files on a laptop sucks when you
have one hand on the  probe...

Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is any good for such use  ?

I know the display is around 200 dpi resolution, but I wonder  if
the screen-size is too small for it to matter  ?



-----------
Not sure about the Kindle but I was very tempted by Sony's ebook reader a  
while back for use with pdf manuals.
 
However, a bit of online research suggested it can only zoom text  and not 
graphics, which would be a severe limitation with technical  manuals.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From rdarlington at gmail.com  Mon May 11 20:43:36 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:43:36 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
In-Reply-To: <23699.1242071231@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <23699.1242071231@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905111343s5dbad3c9w4f5f54b840dfae3f@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know the Kindle, so please forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn.
I have the Sony PRS-500.  It is way too slow to use with PDF files.  Page
turns on all of these devices take roughly 1 second with ordinary ebook
files, which makes it nearly impossible to flip through reference material.
PDF files on mine take closer to 4 seconds to turn.  That being said, the
new Kindle may be faster.

The text quality is outstanding though, and looks even better in direct
sunlight.  NOT at all like an LCD.

-Bob

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>wrote:

>
> I tried the other day to follow a calibration procedure in a HP
> service manual and was severely tempted to print all the 350 pages
> of it because clearly using pdf files on a laptop sucks when you
> have one hand on the probe...
>
> Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is any good for such use ?
>
> I know the display is around 200 dpi resolution, but I wonder if
> the screen-size is too small for it to matter ?
>
> Poul-Henning
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From rrezaian at motorola.com  Mon May 11 20:46:25 2009
From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 15:46:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
In-Reply-To: <23699.1242071231@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <23699.1242071231@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <p0624080fc62e34b66c0d@[192.168.1.1]>

I don't have a Kindle, but I do have both the Sony Reader (501) and 
the iRex iLiad.

Here are a few comments based on my experience.

I don't think the Kindle is officially sold in Europe yet.  Both the 
Sony and the iRex readers are available in Europe.  May not mean much 
for you, but might make a difference if you care about things like 
ease of warranty support.

Big point:  Most of these devices have screens that are too small to 
display an A4 or US Letter PDF page at full resolution.  So you 
either need to scale the document, which in  my experience works 
poorly, or view part of the page.  Partial page views (where you view 
in full resolution, but have to scroll around the page) are easier to 
read but require you to do a lot more page flipping.

Which brings me to my next point.  Screen updates on the e-ink 
displays are slow, it takes few seconds to update  the pixels for 
every page change.  For reading a novel this is not a major problem. 
For reading a technical document where you are going one page at a 
time this is also not a problem.  If you're searching through a 
document and need to flip through a lot of pages this probably will 
be a problem.

That said, the e-ink displays are actually really nice to read. 
Contrast is not close to what you get with real paper, but compared 
to most computer displays there's no refresh flicker at all, and good 
ambient light makes things easier to read rather than harder.  These 
displays are very pleasant to read compared to CRT or LCD.

Regarding small screen size iRex announced a new device with a more 
or less A4 resolution display.  This looks like it might be really 
nice for manuals and technical documents.  This box is also about 
$1000.00 US, so I have not bought one.  I probably won't buy one any 
time soon either, simply as I can't justify the expense as I already 
have a couple of the smaller readers already.

I hate to say this as I do like these devices, but if you're trying 
to read a technical document and also work on an instrument at the 
same time I really think you're probably going to have the best 
results with just printing the document out on paper.

The reader devices are getting nice, but they're not really ready to 
replace paper for challenging situations.

Now, if you want to read a tech manual (or a novel) on a long train 
ride, or on a plane ride, then I strongly recommend one of these. 
They're best for the sort of situation where you are just going to be 
reading page after page, but don't want to carry a lot of bulk.
--
Russell

At 7:47 PM +0000 2009/05/11, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>I tried the other day to follow a calibration procedure in a HP
>service manual and was severely tempted to print all the 350 pages
>of it because clearly using pdf files on a laptop sucks when you
>have one hand on the probe...
>
>Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is any good for such use ?
>
>I know the display is around 200 dpi resolution, but I wonder if
>the screen-size is too small for it to matter ?
>
>Poul-Henning
>
>--
>Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From bill at iaxs.net  Mon May 11 22:02:07 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:02:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market in Plymouth
	MN
In-Reply-To: <1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
Message-ID: <F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>

Group,

Lack of space has become the primary problem here.

I will be at a flea market in Plymouth, MN, at the Comfort Inn, 3000
Harbor Lane 55447.
The market is from dawn to 2 PM on Saturday 15 May. Don't look for me
before 7:30, though.

Have an FTS 4040A Cesium standard and its shipping container, works,
$400.
Will bring on request, as the box is about 3'x4'x1.5'

Other things that work: (Note: if there's no interest in an item, it
stays home)

Fluke 207 VLF receiver, with 60 KHz selection, $50
Tracor 599K VLF receiver, to 99.9 KHz, $50
Spectracom WWVB comparator with recorder, 8212, 8150, and 8163 in a Tek
TM506, $150
  (also includes a Tek PS503A dual PS for TM506, and DM 501A digital
multimeter)
Datum PRR-10 GPS receiver, $100
HP5065 Rubidium standard, $200
Tracor 308A Rubidium standard, $100
HP3335A synthesizer $200
Austron 1290A standby power supply, less batteries, $40
Datum 9310 time-code generator, as used by NASA, $30
Fluke 853A differential frequency meter, $15
Tracor 704 phase meter, $10
Datum 9xxx time-code generators, free but not tested, many divide 1 MHz
to 1 PPS
Borg O-564 crystal frequency standard, missing parts, free
Systron-Donner 6153 counter-timer, free
Kinemetrics 468 DC receiver for GOES, unused, free
Austron Loran C monitor, has two digital readouts and a 3" diagonal
scope, free

If you don't like a price, feel free to discuss it. Please write for
details.

Bill Hawkins
bill at iaxs.net   (no point in worrying about spam harvesters now)



From bill at iaxs.net  Mon May 11 22:02:07 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:02:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS->audio interface
In-Reply-To: <1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
Message-ID: <EBEE0EE03E6D4BDEAC9121DF939FD4EB@cyrus>

I've not seen a description of the real problem, only that it needs to
be small and cheap.

Cheap I can do (as in free) since I have too many time code
generators/receivers.

IRIG-B is a 1 KHz audio time code designed to be recorded for a time
reference.
The Datum units are 1.75" rack-mount boxes weighing 10 pounds or so,
about 16" deep.
Each box has a time display, which is settable for a generator.

It would be possible to transmit the audio to the cameras using cheap
walkie-talkies.
Each recording could have its own time code receiver to display the time
from the video,
if necessary. Otherwise, the generator box can act as a receiver.

The units use small-scale integrated circuits from the '70s. It is
possible to rewire them.

Let me know if this is useful. Shipping from Minneapolis, MN 55438, or
the flea market on the 15th.

Bill Hawkins





From bill at iaxs.net  Mon May 11 22:11:53 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 17:11:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heath Most Accurate Clock
In-Reply-To: <17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
References: <4A06A117.8050909@swipnet.se>
	<17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
Message-ID: <572A24EB49EB46D9BA22F1C9968B54B2@cyrus>

Talked to someone on this list last winter about a Heath WWV clock,
but then couldn't find the clock.

Now I've found it, but lost the name of the interested party.

Bill Hawkins



From rdarlington at gmail.com  Mon May 11 22:18:23 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 16:18:23 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market in
	Plymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com> 
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
	<F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905111518n5bd3388bi510b3aaebd59f47e@mail.gmail.com>

Too bad you're not coming to New Mexico.  I'd buy most of that list!

-Bob

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:

> Group,
>
> Lack of space has become the primary problem here.
>
> I will be at a flea market in Plymouth, MN, at the Comfort Inn, 3000
> Harbor Lane 55447.
> The market is from dawn to 2 PM on Saturday 15 May. Don't look for me
> before 7:30, though.
>
> Have an FTS 4040A Cesium standard and its shipping container, works,
> $400.
> Will bring on request, as the box is about 3'x4'x1.5'
>
> Other things that work: (Note: if there's no interest in an item, it
> stays home)
>
> Fluke 207 VLF receiver, with 60 KHz selection, $50
> Tracor 599K VLF receiver, to 99.9 KHz, $50
> Spectracom WWVB comparator with recorder, 8212, 8150, and 8163 in a Tek
> TM506, $150
>  (also includes a Tek PS503A dual PS for TM506, and DM 501A digital
> multimeter)
> Datum PRR-10 GPS receiver, $100
> HP5065 Rubidium standard, $200
> Tracor 308A Rubidium standard, $100
> HP3335A synthesizer $200
> Austron 1290A standby power supply, less batteries, $40
> Datum 9310 time-code generator, as used by NASA, $30
> Fluke 853A differential frequency meter, $15
> Tracor 704 phase meter, $10
> Datum 9xxx time-code generators, free but not tested, many divide 1 MHz
> to 1 PPS
> Borg O-564 crystal frequency standard, missing parts, free
> Systron-Donner 6153 counter-timer, free
> Kinemetrics 468 DC receiver for GOES, unused, free
> Austron Loran C monitor, has two digital readouts and a 3" diagonal
> scope, free
>
> If you don't like a price, feel free to discuss it. Please write for
> details.
>
> Bill Hawkins
> bill at iaxs.net   (no point in worrying about spam harvesters now)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From K3WRY at aol.com  Mon May 11 23:36:43 2009
From: K3WRY at aol.com (K3WRY at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 19:36:43 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Heath Most Accurate Clock
Message-ID: <d47.434c8b60.373a108b@aol.com>

Bill
I had heard of this clock, but I was never able to locate info and model of 
 the clock as I was also interested in locating one.  
Could you please at least send me the information on the clock. I would  
appreciate it very much.
Thanks
 
Joe
 
Regards,

Dr. Joseph G. Palsa P.E.
Director, Sales &  Marketing
Clary Corporation
Phone: 888-442-5279
Phone:  804-674-0364
Fax: 804-674-0714
Cell:  804-350-2665
jpalsa at clary.com
djpalsa at yahoo.com 
k3wry at aol.com  

 
In a message dated 5/11/2009 6:16:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
bill at iaxs.net writes:

Talked  to someone on this list last winter about a Heath WWV clock,
but then  couldn't find the clock.

Now I've found it, but lost the name of the  interested party.

Bill  Hawkins


_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions  there.




From swithrow at idcomm.com  Tue May 12 04:21:07 2009
From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 22:21:07 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Worlds smallest pendulum clock (oscillator)
Message-ID: <20090512042107.4E017394029@mailhost.idcomm.com>


Check out this device - http://www.sitime.com/products/sit3701.php 

Wow, a MEMS oscillator that works from 1 to 80MHz.  This sounds like a 
candidate for constructing the worlds smallest pendulum clock (well I guess 
more tuning fork than pendulum).  I'm sure some time-nuts have ideas for 
suitably small displays. 

Just food for thought. 

Regards,
Skip Withrow


From jmiles at pop.net  Tue May 12 04:36:57 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 21:36:57 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Worlds smallest pendulum clock (oscillator)
In-Reply-To: <20090512042107.4E017394029@mailhost.idcomm.com>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEHEBAAC.jmiles@pop.net>

What are the advantages of these VCMOs versus traditional quartz VCXOs?

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Skip Withrow
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:21 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Worlds smallest pendulum clock (oscillator)
> 
> 
> 
> Check out this device - http://www.sitime.com/products/sit3701.php 
> 
> Wow, a MEMS oscillator that works from 1 to 80MHz.  This sounds like a 
> candidate for constructing the worlds smallest pendulum clock 
> (well I guess 
> more tuning fork than pendulum).  I'm sure some time-nuts have ideas for 
> suitably small displays. 
> 
> Just food for thought. 
> 
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue May 12 04:51:32 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:51:32 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Worlds smallest pendulum clock (oscillator)
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEHEBAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEHEBAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <4A090054.9050500@xtra.co.nz>

John

Size.
Higher phase noise.
Lower cost.
Greater tuning range.

Bruce

John Miles wrote:
> What are the advantages of these VCMOs versus traditional quartz VCXOs?
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Skip Withrow
>> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 9:21 PM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Worlds smallest pendulum clock (oscillator)
>>
>>
>>
>> Check out this device - http://www.sitime.com/products/sit3701.php 
>>
>> Wow, a MEMS oscillator that works from 1 to 80MHz.  This sounds like a 
>> candidate for constructing the worlds smallest pendulum clock 
>> (well I guess 
>> more tuning fork than pendulum).  I'm sure some time-nuts have ideas for 
>> suitably small displays. 
>>
>> Just food for thought. 
>>
>> Regards,
>> Skip Withrow
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Tue May 12 06:39:30 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 06:39:30 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
Message-ID: <55823.67542.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi,
I did post last night but it seems to have gone into the bit bucket.
I have had a Sony PRS-505 for over a year. I agree with Russell, It's great for books, I have about 200 on mine at the moment. An often missed point, it's also an MP3 audio player. The screen size and resoultion make it poor for PDF's though. Computer generated ones are just about readable, most scanned ones are useless. There was a software update that improved things a little, but not much. I keep "emergency" datasheets on mine, but that's about it. I also had trouble with the manual for my Canon digital camera. The security watermark comes out at 100% density and obliterates the text. B.T.W the sony is a Linux based devive so there are hacking possibilities.

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Mon, 11/5/09, Russell Rezaian <rrezaian at motorola.com> wrote:

> From: Russell Rezaian <rrezaian at motorola.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009, 9:46 PM
> I don't have a Kindle, but I do have
> both the Sony Reader (501) and the iRex iLiad.
> 
> Here are a few comments based on my experience.
> 
> I don't think the Kindle is officially sold in Europe
> yet.? Both the Sony and the iRex readers are available
> in Europe.? May not mean much for you, but might make a
> difference if you care about things like ease of warranty
> support.
> 
> Big point:? Most of these devices have screens that
> are too small to display an A4 or US Letter PDF page at full
> resolution.? So you either need to scale the document,
> which in? my experience works poorly, or view part of
> the page.? Partial page views (where you view in full
> resolution, but have to scroll around the page) are easier
> to read but require you to do a lot more page flipping.
> 
> Which brings me to my next point.? Screen updates on
> the e-ink displays are slow, it takes few seconds to
> update? the pixels for every page change.? For
> reading a novel this is not a major problem. For reading a
> technical document where you are going one page at a time
> this is also not a problem.? If you're searching
> through a document and need to flip through a lot of pages
> this probably will be a problem.
> 
> That said, the e-ink displays are actually really nice to
> read. Contrast is not close to what you get with real paper,
> but compared to most computer displays there's no refresh
> flicker at all, and good ambient light makes things easier
> to read rather than harder.? These displays are very
> pleasant to read compared to CRT or LCD.
> 
> Regarding small screen size iRex announced a new device
> with a more or less A4 resolution display.? This looks
> like it might be really nice for manuals and technical
> documents.? This box is also about $1000.00 US, so I
> have not bought one.? I probably won't buy one any time
> soon either, simply as I can't justify the expense as I
> already have a couple of the smaller readers already.
> 
> I hate to say this as I do like these devices, but if
> you're trying to read a technical document and also work on
> an instrument at the same time I really think you're
> probably going to have the best results with just printing
> the document out on paper.
> 
> The reader devices are getting nice, but they're not really
> ready to replace paper for challenging situations.
> 
> Now, if you want to read a tech manual (or a novel) on a
> long train ride, or on a plane ride, then I strongly
> recommend one of these. They're best for the sort of
> situation where you are just going to be reading page after
> page, but don't want to carry a lot of bulk.
> --
> Russell
> 
> At 7:47 PM +0000 2009/05/11, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> > I tried the other day to follow a calibration
> procedure in a HP
> > service manual and was severely tempted to print all
> the 350 pages
> > of it because clearly using pdf files on a laptop
> sucks when you
> > have one hand on the probe...
> > 
> > Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is any good for
> such use ?
> > 
> > I know the display is around 200 dpi resolution, but I
> wonder if
> > the screen-size is too small for it to matter ?
> > 
> > Poul-Henning
> > 
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp? ? ???|
> UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG?
> ? ? ???| TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer? ? ???| BSD
> since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be
> explained by incompetence.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Tue May 12 11:17:50 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:17:50 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKAPAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1242127155.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

Great John! 

I do use this nice tool very often because it gives me a good instant overview 
of the TB and GPS SATs situation (I still use as well TBoltmon.exe complementary).

The best of all for me is the visualisation of the data showing the relations and 
impacts of  
The graph is perfect even on my display with the 1600 x 1200 resolution.

My wish: I would like to toggle off the temp information (my TB seem to have a 
problem with the temp reading.), is there a way? What about toggling other 
params?

Further Questions: Why do you put in 77ns delay? Is your (coax) line so long ;-)? 

Btw. i use about 25 m RG58 without any problem, the signals are 
showing mostly 37 to 44dB and have 4 to 7 SATs in the list.
I do run the system very comfortable on distance via WLAN, LAN and a W&T 
Ethernet to COM port converter on my Laptop from everywhere in and around 
my home.

Why I am not able to switch in the Kalman Filter option, wrong understanding?

The x and y toggle description does show the same function explanation 
intentionally!?
I do not fully understandas well the command line options in readme.htm for 
/x and /y option related to this toggle function. Could you check it and 
explain it?

Many thanks, as well to Mark Sims - and not to forget Tom Van Baak for 
the ADEV routines!

Arnold, DK2WT



On Sat, 9 May 2009 23:06:53 -0700, John Miles wrote:

>I think an extra '.' found its way into that link:
>http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup.exe 

>-- john, KE5FX

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Mark Sims
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:39 PM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Lady Heather's GPS Disciplined Oscillator Control Program has 
>> been upgraded to version 2.0
>> 
>> It is available from John Miles' site 
>> at:http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup..exe
>> 
>> The new version adds many new features including the ability to 
>> view data at different time scales,  calculate HDEVs, MDEVs, and 
>> TDEVs (including a mode to display/plot all versions of the adevs 
>> at the same time),  read in and write log files,  adjust 
>> oscillator disciplining parameters,  zoom in/out on a graph with 
>> the click of a mouse,  etc.  DOS mode users can use EMS memory 
>> for extended ADEV intervals.
>> 
>> The new version did change some of the command line parameters 
>> and keyboard commands.  You may need to tweak your startup 
>> command profile.  You should check the readme file and online 
>> help ("heather /?" and "?" from the keyboard) for more info.  
>> Also check the change info in heather.cpp for more detailed info 
>> on the changes (and a couple of undocumented features).
>> 
>> Many thanks to John for his Windows port and help.
>> 

>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.





From j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl  Tue May 12 11:28:40 2009
From: j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl (Jeroen Bastemeijer)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:28:40 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
Message-ID: <4A095D68.7020509@tudelft.nl>

Dear All,

I decided to switch on my Brandywine GPS-4 after some time on the shelf. 
After start-up it takes some time, then the Alarm-LED starts flashing...
When I look at the data coming from the serial port it keeps saying 
"L=load ESC=run". Unfortunately the unit doesn't respond to any command :-(

So I have no clue what the cause of the error is. I suspect the 
microprocessor....

I checked the manual, but I couldn't find any information about this 
behaviour. Is there someone around here with a  solution? Or maybe a 
service manual?

BTW changing the power supply, didn't solve the problem. Current starts 
at a higher level and drops after some time when the OCXO is on temperature.

Thank you, best regards, Jeroen
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From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue May 12 11:46:07 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 13:46:07 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
In-Reply-To: <4A095D68.7020509@tudelft.nl>
References: <4A095D68.7020509@tudelft.nl>
Message-ID: <4A09617F.3080503@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Jeroen Bastemeijer skrev:
> Dear All,
> 
> I decided to switch on my Brandywine GPS-4 after some time on the shelf. 
> After start-up it takes some time, then the Alarm-LED starts flashing...
> When I look at the data coming from the serial port it keeps saying 
> "L=load ESC=run". Unfortunately the unit doesn't respond to any command :-(

A few comments from my own flimsy attempts...

Using a straight 9 pin cable to the PC does not work well. The serial 
port needs to the cut out so the other signals does not confuse things.

Also, check the serial configuration details. The manual gives details 
on how the DIP switch should be set.

The GPS4 has a FLASH and a EPROM image, so you could have entered the 
backup EPROM image flash download mode.

You just reminded me that I need to make some more serious attempts to 
get it up and running with serial interface too. It locks up without 
serial cable, so it is only me messing with it.

The GPS4 can be modified to be used for external clock steering of OCXO 
and Rubidium sources, just as the Thunderbolt can.

Cheers,
Magnus


From j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl  Tue May 12 12:29:16 2009
From: j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl (Jeroen Bastemeijer)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:29:16 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
In-Reply-To: <4A09617F.3080503@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A095D68.7020509@tudelft.nl>
	<4A09617F.3080503@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A096B9C.8000200@tudelft.nl>

Dear Magnus,

Thank you for your response!

The unit used to work.... so dip-switch, cable etc. are OK. The thing I 
suspect is indeed, some problem with the FLASH and/or EPROM. However, I 
have no useful source of information about that.

The initial question: "L=load ESC=run" has something to do with FLASH 
restore, I think. However, the unit doesn't seem to repond to the 
commands sent through the serial port. Do you know of any jumper inside 
which could be used to force a new load of the flash? When I open up the 
unit I see a number of jumpers inside, but I don't have a useful 
description of their function.

73 Jeroen PE1RGE

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Jeroen Bastemeijer skrev:
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I decided to switch on my Brandywine GPS-4 after some time on the 
>> shelf. After start-up it takes some time, then the Alarm-LED starts 
>> flashing...
>> When I look at the data coming from the serial port it keeps saying 
>> "L=load ESC=run". Unfortunately the unit doesn't respond to any 
>> command :-(
>
> A few comments from my own flimsy attempts...
>
> Using a straight 9 pin cable to the PC does not work well. The serial 
> port needs to the cut out so the other signals does not confuse things.
>
> Also, check the serial configuration details. The manual gives details 
> on how the DIP switch should be set.
>
> The GPS4 has a FLASH and a EPROM image, so you could have entered the 
> backup EPROM image flash download mode.
>
> You just reminded me that I need to make some more serious attempts to 
> get it up and running with serial interface too. It locks up without 
> serial cable, so it is only me messing with it.
>
> The GPS4 can be modified to be used for external clock steering of 
> OCXO and Rubidium sources, just as the Thunderbolt can.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
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From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Tue May 12 13:52:15 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:52:15 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Re again:  Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1242136348.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

John, 

please forget my prev. statements and question concerning the toggle function: 
I was 'miope', blind, I just saw the new way you implemented the toggle functions, 
to be enabled via the command line and including the temperature information!
I have to redo my command line accordingly.

73
Arnold


Great John! 

I do use this nice tool very often because it gives me a good instant overview 
of the TB and GPS SATs situation (I still use as well TBoltmon.exe complementary).

The best of all for me is the visualisation of the data showing the relations and 
impacts of  
The graph is perfect even on my display with the 1600 x 1200 resolution.

My wish: I would like to toggle off the temp information (my TB seem to have a 
problem with the temp reading.), is there a way? What about toggling other 
params?

Further Questions: Why do you put in 77ns delay? Is your (coax) line so long ;-)? 

Btw. i use about 25 m RG58 without any problem, the signals are 
showing mostly 37 to 44dB and have 4 to 7 SATs in the list.
I do run the system very comfortable on distance via WLAN, LAN and a W&T 
Ethernet to COM port converter on my Laptop from everywhere in and around 
my home.

Why I am not able to switch in the Kalman Filter option, wrong understanding?

The x and y toggle description does show the same function explanation 
intentionally!?
I do not fully understandas well the command line options in readme.htm for 
/x and /y option related to this toggle function. Could you check it and 
explain it?

Many thanks, as well to Mark Sims - and not to forget Tom Van Baak for 
the ADEV routines!

Arnold, DK2WT



On Sat, 9 May 2009 23:06:53 -0700, John Miles wrote:

>I think an extra '.' found its way into that link:
>http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup.exe 

>-- john, KE5FX

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Mark Sims
>> Sent: Saturday, May 09, 2009 8:39 PM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Lady Heather's GPS Disciplined Oscillator Control Program has 
>> been upgraded to version 2.0
>> 
>> It is available from John Miles' site 
>> at:http://www.ke5fx.com/heather/setup..exe
>> 
>> The new version adds many new features including the ability to 
>> view data at different time scales,  calculate HDEVs, MDEVs, and 
>> TDEVs (including a mode to display/plot all versions of the adevs 
>> at the same time),  read in and write log files,  adjust 
>> oscillator disciplining parameters,  zoom in/out on a graph with 
>> the click of a mouse,  etc.  DOS mode users can use EMS memory 
>> for extended ADEV intervals.
>> 
>> The new version did change some of the command line parameters 
>> and keyboard commands.  You may need to tweak your startup 
>> command profile.  You should check the readme file and online 
>> help ("heather /?" and "?" from the keyboard) for more info.  
>> Also check the change info in heather.cpp for more detailed info 
>> on the changes (and a couple of undocumented features).
>> 
>> Many thanks to John for his Windows port and help.
>> 

>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.




_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE===================





From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 16:16:51 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:16:51 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W134383F391E8A628CFFE26CE600@phx.gbl>


Hello Arnold,

The default 77 ns delay corresponds to 50 feet of 0.66 velocity factor coax...  probably the most typical installation.  You can set the cable delay to whatever you want.

The Kalman filter option is only implemented in the Thunderbolt-E firmware.  It is grayed out on the regular tbolt (but is still selectable just in case it is/was ever supported by a different firmware release).

The eXpand ('x') command sets the plot scale factors for 1 hr/division.  The View ('v') command is similar,  but lets you set the length of time to view in the plot area.  It may do a little tweaking of the specified value to get the plot divisons aligned to nice round time intervals. 

The daY ('y') command does the same thing as 'x',  but also sets up the plot area for 24 major divisions for a full day display.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 16:22:28 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:22:28 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W3060BE2ED9B2B6C26140D7CE600@phx.gbl>


This got cut off of my last post (thank you Microsoft):



From W4wj at aol.com  Tue May 12 16:24:09 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:24:09 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
Message-ID: <be2.4c1b7181.373afca9@aol.com>

I have the Kindle2 but have not taken any pdf files  across...
 
In order to "see" pdf's on a K2...   You have  to send them thru 
Amazon.com, where they will be "converted" and sent along to  the K2...
 
Unlike buying a book where there is no download (3G)  charge...  There is a 
charge for the transmission of pdf and Word  docs.
 
FYI, the NEWEST Kindle, the KindleDX, with a 9.7 inch screen,  will become 
available in the near future.  I don't know if it will take  pdf's directly 
thru the USB port.  Google search will give you the latest  "intel!"
 
Page changes on the K2 are quite fast...   Complete  book downloads happen
in less than a minute...  Great out in the  sunlight...   1.5Gb storage...
Good battery life...    270K+ books  available...   Books can be ordered 
direct from the K2 screen, or via  your normal computer...  MP3 files can be 
sent directly to the K2 via the  USB and played thru the stereo speakers 
while you read...  You can also  surf the net from the K2...   the screen is 3.5 
x 4.75  inches...   Text size adjustable over 6 sizes...   Text to  speech 
converter
(still being fine tuned!!)
 
Any K2 questions?  Let me know...
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ 
 
 
In a message dated 5/12/2009 1:40:48 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk writes:


Hi,
I did post last night but it seems to have gone into the bit  bucket.
I have had a Sony PRS-505 for over a year. I agree with Russell,  It's 
great for books, I have about 200 on mine at the moment. An often missed  point, 
it's also an MP3 audio player. The screen size and resoultion make it  poor 
for PDF's though. Computer generated ones are just about readable, most  
scanned ones are useless. There was a software update that improved things a  
little, but not much. I keep "emergency" datasheets on mine, but that's 
about  it. I also had trouble with the manual for my Canon digital camera. The  
security watermark comes out at 100% density and obliterates the text. B.T.W 
 the sony is a Linux based devive so there are hacking  possibilities.

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Mon, 11/5/09, Russell  Rezaian <rrezaian at motorola.com> wrote:

> From: Russell Rezaian  <rrezaian at motorola.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP  service manuals ?
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency  measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Monday, 11 May, 2009,  9:46 PM
> I don't have a Kindle, but I do have
> both the Sony  Reader (501) and the iRex iLiad.
> 
> Here are a few comments  based on my experience.
> 
> I don't think the Kindle is  officially sold in Europe
> yet.  Both the Sony and the iRex  readers are available
> in Europe.  May not mean much for you, but  might make a
> difference if you care about things like ease of  warranty
> support.
> 
> Big point:  Most of these  devices have screens that
> are too small to display an A4 or US Letter  PDF page at full
> resolution.  So you either need to scale the  document,
> which in  my experience works poorly, or view part  of
> the page.  Partial page views (where you view in full
>  resolution, but have to scroll around the page) are easier
> to read but  require you to do a lot more page flipping.
> 
> Which brings me  to my next point.  Screen updates on
> the e-ink displays are slow,  it takes few seconds to
> update  the pixels for every page  change.  For
> reading a novel this is not a major problem. For  reading a
> technical document where you are going one page at a  time
> this is also not a problem.  If you're searching
>  through a document and need to flip through a lot of pages
> this  probably will be a problem.
> 
> That said, the e-ink displays are  actually really nice to
> read. Contrast is not close to what you get  with real paper,
> but compared to most computer displays there's no  refresh
> flicker at all, and good ambient light makes things  easier
> to read rather than harder.  These displays are  very
> pleasant to read compared to CRT or LCD.
> 
>  Regarding small screen size iRex announced a new device
> with a more or  less A4 resolution display.  This looks
> like it might be really  nice for manuals and technical
> documents.  This box is also about  $1000.00 US, so I
> have not bought one.  I probably won't buy one  any time
> soon either, simply as I can't justify the expense as  I
> already have a couple of the smaller readers already.
>  
> I hate to say this as I do like these devices, but if
> you're  trying to read a technical document and also work on
> an instrument at  the same time I really think you're
> probably going to have the best  results with just printing
> the document out on paper.
> 
>  The reader devices are getting nice, but they're not really
> ready to  replace paper for challenging situations.
> 
> Now, if you want to  read a tech manual (or a novel) on a
> long train ride, or on a plane  ride, then I strongly
> recommend one of these. They're best for the  sort of
> situation where you are just going to be reading page  after
> page, but don't want to carry a lot of bulk.
> --
>  Russell
> 
> At 7:47 PM +0000 2009/05/11, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> > I tried the other day to follow a calibration
>  procedure in a HP
> > service manual and was severely tempted to  print all
> the 350 pages
> > of it because clearly using pdf  files on a laptop
> sucks when you
> > have one hand on the  probe...
> > 
> > Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is  any good for
> such use ?
> > 
> > I know the display  is around 200 dpi resolution, but I
> wonder if
> > the  screen-size is too small for it to matter ?
> > 
> >  Poul-Henning
> > 
> > --
> > Poul-Henning  Kamp       |
> UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG 
>      | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer   | BSD
> since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never  attribute to malice what can adequately be
> explained by  incompetence.
> > 
> >  _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and  follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
>  _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the  instructions there.
> 




_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
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and follow the  instructions there.

**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322936x1201367173/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
=Mayfooter51209NO115)

From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 16:25:55 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:25:55 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W4015903675261A80833EC4CE600@phx.gbl>


Gee it looks like Microsoft does not want you to see this...  one more try:



From W4wj at aol.com  Tue May 12 16:28:00 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:28:00 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Heath Most Accurate Clock
Message-ID: <bde.45316c67.373afd90@aol.com>

Heathkit GC-1000 Most Accurate Clock
 
Recently a NIB unit sold on the "bay" for $1K...
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/11/2009 6:38:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
K3WRY at aol.com writes:

Bill
I had heard of this clock, but I was never able to locate info  and model 
of 
the clock as I was also interested in locating one.   
Could you please at least send me the information on the clock. I  would  
appreciate it very  much.
Thanks

Joe

Regards,

Dr. Joseph G. Palsa  P.E.
Director, Sales &  Marketing
Clary Corporation
Phone:  888-442-5279
Phone:  804-674-0364
Fax: 804-674-0714
Cell:   804-350-2665
jpalsa at clary.com
djpalsa at yahoo.com 
k3wry at aol.com   


In a message dated 5/11/2009 6:16:06 P.M. Eastern Daylight  Time,  
bill at iaxs.net writes:

Talked  to someone on this  list last winter about a Heath WWV clock,
but then  couldn't find the  clock.

Now I've found it, but lost the name of the  interested  party.

Bill   Hawkins


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To unsubscribe, go to   
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**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
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=Mayfooter51209NO115)

From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 16:30:24 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 16:30:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W373B75AA3EC54D16CB1052CE600@phx.gbl>


Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:  From the command line there is the /y command.  /y alone says to do the
24 hour plot.  /y /y does a 12 hour plot.  /y=# does same as the 'v'
keyboard command (sets display to # hours).  If you see something interesting in  the plot,  you can click on that
point and the plot will enter scroll mode and either zoom in or out on
that point.  To resume normal operation click on the plot to get your
desired zoom factor (either zoomed in or out) then press the DEL key to
exit scroll mode. The program implements the zoom and view features by just skipping over
entries in the data queue as it draws the plot.  It does not attempt to
analyze or process the skipped over points.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From W4wj at aol.com  Tue May 12 16:30:49 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:30:49 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Kindle and HP service manuals ?
Message-ID: <d4e.4f5e5931.373afe39@aol.com>

Here is your KindleDX info:
 
_http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015TCML0/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=3482997509&ref=
pd_sl_19djrsy7gv_e_ 
(http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0015TCML0/?tag=googhydr-20&hvadid=3482997509&ref=pd_sl_19djrsy7gv_e) 
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/12/2009 11:25:07 A.M. Central Daylight Time,  
W4wj at aol.com writes:

I have  the Kindle2 but have not taken any pdf files  across...

In order  to "see" pdf's on a K2...   You have  to send them thru  
Amazon.com, where they will be "converted" and sent along to  the  K2...

Unlike buying a book where there is no download (3G)   charge...  There is 
a 
charge for the transmission of pdf and  Word  docs.

FYI, the NEWEST Kindle, the KindleDX, with a 9.7 inch  screen,  will become 
available in the near future.  I don't know  if it will take  pdf's 
directly 
thru the USB port.  Google  search will give you the latest  "intel!"

Page changes on the K2  are quite fast...   Complete  book downloads happen
in less  than a minute...  Great out in the  sunlight...   1.5Gb  storage...
Good battery life...    270K+ books   available...   Books can be ordered 
direct from the K2 screen,  or via  your normal computer...  MP3 files can 
be 
sent directly  to the K2 via the  USB and played thru the stereo speakers 
while you  read...  You can also  surf the net from the K2...   the  screen 
is 3.5 
x 4.75  inches...   Text size adjustable over  6 sizes...   Text to  speech 
converter
(still being fine  tuned!!)

Any K2 questions?  Let me know...


73, Don,  W4WJ 


In a message dated 5/12/2009 1:40:48 A.M. Central Daylight  Time,  
robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk writes:


Hi,
I did post  last night but it seems to have gone into the bit  bucket.
I have had  a Sony PRS-505 for over a year. I agree with Russell,  It's 
great for  books, I have about 200 on mine at the moment. An often missed  
point,  
it's also an MP3 audio player. The screen size and resoultion make  it  
poor 
for PDF's though. Computer generated ones are just about  readable, most  
scanned ones are useless. There was a software update  that improved things 
a  
little, but not much. I keep "emergency"  datasheets on mine, but that's 
about  it. I also had trouble with the  manual for my Canon digital camera. 
The  
security watermark comes out  at 100% density and obliterates the text. 
B.T.W 
the sony is a Linux based  devive so there are hacking  possibilities.

Robert  G8RPI.

--- On Mon, 11/5/09, Russell  Rezaian  <rrezaian at motorola.com> wrote:

> From: Russell Rezaian   <rrezaian at motorola.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Kindle and  HP  service manuals ?
> To: "Discussion of precise time and  frequency  measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date:  Monday, 11 May, 2009,  9:46 PM
> I don't have a Kindle, but I do  have
> both the Sony  Reader (501) and the iRex iLiad.
>  
> Here are a few comments  based on my experience.
>  
> I don't think the Kindle is  officially sold in Europe
>  yet.  Both the Sony and the iRex  readers are available
> in  Europe.  May not mean much for you, but  might make a
>  difference if you care about things like ease of  warranty
>  support.
> 
> Big point:  Most of these  devices have  screens that
> are too small to display an A4 or US Letter  PDF  page at full
> resolution.  So you either need to scale the   document,
> which in  my experience works poorly, or view  part  of
> the page.  Partial page views (where you view in  full
>  resolution, but have to scroll around the page) are  easier
> to read but  require you to do a lot more page  flipping.
> 
> Which brings me  to my next point.   Screen updates on
> the e-ink displays are slow,  it takes few  seconds to
> update  the pixels for every page  change.   For
> reading a novel this is not a major problem. For  reading  a
> technical document where you are going one page at a   time
> this is also not a problem.  If you're  searching
>  through a document and need to flip through a lot of  pages
> this  probably will be a problem.
> 
> That  said, the e-ink displays are  actually really nice to
> read.  Contrast is not close to what you get  with real paper,
> but  compared to most computer displays there's no  refresh
> flicker at  all, and good ambient light makes things  easier
> to read rather  than harder.  These displays are  very
> pleasant to read  compared to CRT or LCD.
> 
>  Regarding small screen size  iRex announced a new device
> with a more or  less A4 resolution  display.  This looks
> like it might be really  nice for  manuals and technical
> documents.  This box is also about   $1000.00 US, so I
> have not bought one.  I probably won't buy  one  any time
> soon either, simply as I can't justify the expense  as  I
> already have a couple of the smaller readers  already.
>  
> I hate to say this as I do like these devices,  but if
> you're  trying to read a technical document and also work  on
> an instrument at  the same time I really think you're
>  probably going to have the best  results with just printing
> the  document out on paper.
> 
>  The reader devices are getting  nice, but they're not really
> ready to  replace paper for  challenging situations.
> 
> Now, if you want to  read a tech  manual (or a novel) on a
> long train ride, or on a plane  ride,  then I strongly
> recommend one of these. They're best for the   sort of
> situation where you are just going to be reading page   after
> page, but don't want to carry a lot of bulk.
>  --
>  Russell
> 
> At 7:47 PM +0000 2009/05/11,  Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> > I tried the other day to follow a  calibration
>  procedure in a HP
> > service manual and  was severely tempted to  print all
> the 350 pages
> > of  it because clearly using pdf  files on a laptop
> sucks when  you
> > have one hand on the  probe...
> > 
>  > Has anybody tried if amazons's Kindle is  any good for
> such  use ?
> > 
> > I know the display  is around 200 dpi  resolution, but I
> wonder if
> > the  screen-size is too  small for it to matter ?
> > 
> >  Poul-Henning
>  > 
> > --
> > Poul-Henning  Kamp     |
> UNIX since Zilog Zeus  3.20
> >  phk at FreeBSD.ORG 
>      | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>  > FreeBSD committer   | BSD
> since 4.3-tahoe
> >  Never  attribute to malice what can adequately be
> explained  by  incompetence.
> > 
> >   _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts  mailing  list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go  to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>  > and  follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
>   _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing  list  -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to   
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow  the  instructions there.
>  




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=Mayfooter51209NO115)

From W4wj at aol.com  Tue May 12 16:37:57 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 12:37:57 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC...   Seiko Digital Watch
Message-ID: <d64.3b527fd4.373affe5@aol.com>

Can anyone recommend a reputable Seiko Digital Watch  Repair shop?
 
TIA...
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ 
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322936x1201367173/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
=Mayfooter51209NO115)

From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 17:06:04 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:06:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl>



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue May 12 17:10:41 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 10:10:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeroen Bastemeijer <j.bastemeijer@tudelft.nl> 
	of "Tue, 12 May 2009 14:29:16 +0200." <4A096B9C.8000200@tudelft.nl> 
Message-ID: <20090512171042.682E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> The unit used to work.... so dip-switch, cable etc. are OK. The thing
> I  suspect is indeed, some problem with the FLASH and/or EPROM.
> However, I  have no useful source of information about that. 

Did it work with the serial port connected to a PC like you are using now?  
Or did you just see the green LED go on?

What happens if you try it without the serial connection?  (There are some 
control signals on that connector that may not match normal RS-232 usage.)

-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com  Tue May 12 18:23:48 2009
From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 19:23:48 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W373B75AA3EC54D16CB1052CE600@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1.1242129601.17714.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W373B75AA3EC54D16CB1052CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <089AF2FEFD394687B568593FC137B912@APOLLO>

The all appear to be getting through from here Mark. 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: 12 May 2009 17:30
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available


Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:

From didier at cox.net  Tue May 12 19:09:34 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:09:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC...   Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <d64.3b527fd4.373affe5@aol.com>
References: <d64.3b527fd4.373affe5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <1861B5F9CCAE470A99F6AACFEDA8AC26@keltec.sigtech.com>

COSERV, the official Seiko repair outfit. Address is on the Seiko web site.

I have sent several watches there and they do a top notch job. 100%
satisfaction.

Didier KO4BB 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of W4wj at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:38 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch

Can anyone recommend a reputable Seiko Digital Watch  Repair shop?
 
TIA...
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ
**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322936x1201367173/aol?redir=htt
p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=115&bcd
=Mayfooter51209NO115)
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.




From didier at cox.net  Tue May 12 19:16:36 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 14:16:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>

My favorite Seiko watches all have the 7T32 analog movement (quartz). It is
probably the most complex quartz analog movement Seiko made. All three 7T32
watches I had repaired (by COSERV) cost me $70 or so for the movement
repair, and a few more $ for replacing the crystal and crowns. Movement
replacement is quite a bit more expensive, I never had to have a Seiko
movement replaced. Watches with 7T32 movements cost about $350 when they
were sold new, ~15-20 years ago. I bought a "new old stock" 7T32 Seiko watch
last year on eBay for much less. It was (and still is) working perfectly.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:06 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch



From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Tue May 12 19:33:14 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:33:14 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W373B75AA3EC54D16CB1052CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <mailman.14.1242156888.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

Mark, I will try all the options ( training! ;-)  ), 
your explanations are very helpful, 
thanks again Mark,

Arnold

On Tue, 12 May 2009 16:30:24 +0000, Mark Sims wrote:


>Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:  From the command line there is the /y command.  /y alone says to do the
>24 hour plot.  /y /y does a 12 hour plot.  /y=# does same as the 'v'
>keyboard command (sets display to # hours).  If you see something interesting in  the plot,  you can click on that
>point and the plot will enter scroll mode and either zoom in or out on
>that point.  To resume normal operation click on the plot to get your
>desired zoom factor (either zoomed in or out) then press the DEL key to
>exit scroll mode. The program implements the zoom and view features by just skipping over
>entries in the data queue as it draws the plot.  It does not attempt to
>analyze or process the skipped over points.
>_________________________________________________________________
>Hotmail? goes with you. 
>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.





From lasse.moell at swipnet.se  Tue May 12 19:41:42 2009
From: lasse.moell at swipnet.se (Lasse)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:41:42 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Help needed: Jupiter-T TU60-D120
In-Reply-To: <17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
References: <17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
Message-ID: <4A09D0F6.4000302@swipnet.se>

Richard,
I think I finally have figured out how this GPS-receiver do operate 
(with some hand-holding from James Miller).

At power-on it will transmit "ff 81 9c 04 01 00 00 00 64 79 00 00 00 00" 
and then wait for command.
This erronously led me to think it would be in Navman binary mode, 
*Wrong* !
It only listens for a subset of Motorola binary commands, despite the 
previously transmitted string.
Secondly, it seems best to let the receiver have a few seconds of 
start-up before sending commands, or it seems to go deaf.

Once I had this figured out, it is simple to change to Navman binary 
with the @@Wb command if that's what you want. One thing is that
Labmon and WinLabmon seems outdated as several of the commands are 
unrecognized.

Finally, the receiver do retain settings for a few minutes (hours?) even 
with-out the back-up capacitor, so a quick power-loss will not mean that 
the GPS is back to factory reset.
Letting is be off for several hours WILL turn int into factor reset state.

Hopefully my findings will help others struggling to get their TU60-D120 
going.

Now a "simple" question... I intend to turn this into a GPSDO, using the 
scheme of James Miller, but would like to have some indication on the 
status of the system. By setting the @@En command I should be able to 
have no 1PPS as long as there are no satellites tracked. If the GPS 
acheive lock, it should then turn on 1PPS, flashing LED would be a neat 
indicator. Now this should be farily easy by sending a few commands at 
start-up using a microcontroller. The question is would it be beneficial 
to set the receiver to HOLD POSITION and turn on the T-RAIM function? 
Would this affect the stability of the 10kHz/1PPS signal?? It seems the 
GPS has these functions turned off as default.

Comments are most welcome!

/Lasse SM5GLC



From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 12 19:50:00 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 15:50:00 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>	<BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl>
	<CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>
Message-ID: <4A09D2E8.4080309@erols.com>

As an amateur watchmaker, I have some news for you.  Quartz movements
are cheap and cannot reasonably be repaired.  The movements are always
replaced.  They cost around $20 for the very complex crono movements
with multiple dials.

If you go to an authorized Seiko "repair" place, you might actually get
a real Seiko movement put back in your watch, but most of the time, you
will get a Chinese knockoff movement that they will glue to the back of
your dial.

-Chuck Harris


As a watchmaker, you can't even open the case for $70.
Didier Juges wrote:
> My favorite Seiko watches all have the 7T32 analog movement (quartz). It is
> probably the most complex quartz analog movement Seiko made. All three 7T32
> watches I had repaired (by COSERV) cost me $70 or so for the movement
> repair, and a few more $ for replacing the crystal and crowns. Movement
> replacement is quite a bit more expensive, I never had to have a Seiko
> movement replaced. Watches with 7T32 movements cost about $350 when they
> were sold new, ~15-20 years ago. I bought a "new old stock" 7T32 Seiko watch
> last year on eBay for much less. It was (and still is) working perfectly.
> 
> Didier
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Mark Sims
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 12:06 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
> 
> 
>>From past experience I can tell you that the mechanisms in these watches are
> pretty much not repairable.  If the case is solid gold and diamonds, etc it
> may be reasonable to have the mechanism replaced.  Your best bet is to find
> a replacement on Ebay.  My favorite Seiko/Pulsar analog/digital watches that
> sell for $250+ in a store can be had for less than $20 ($5 if you are
> patient).  A watchmaker won't even take the back off for that.
> _________________________________________________________________
> HotmailR has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
> al_WhatsNew1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 12 21:27:36 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 21:27:36 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.964.1242155810.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.964.1242155810.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W38021E558BCF4CDA336D49CE600@phx.gbl>


Hmmm,  problem seems to be with the time-nut archives.  I usually read messages via the archives,  and the messages are either blank or clipped off there.

-------------------------------------------The all appear to be getting through from here Mark. 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: 12 May 2009 17:30
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available


Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009

From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Tue May 12 21:36:15 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:36:15 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W38021E558BCF4CDA336D49CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <mailman.15.1242164199.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

On Tue, 12 May 2009 21:27:36 +0000, Mark Sims wrote:


>Hmmm,  problem seems to be with the time-nut archives.  I usually read messages via the archives,  and the messages are either blank or clipped off there.

>-------------------------------------------The all appear to be getting through from here Mark. 


Mark, 

I could read as well all the different messages you sent!
So, everything you sent obviously was re-sent by the time-nuts server.

Arnold




>-----Original Message-----
>From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>Behalf Of Mark Sims
>Sent: 12 May 2009 17:30
>To: time-nuts at febo.com
>Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available


>Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:
>_________________________________________________________________
>Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
>http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.





From stake at btinternet.com  Wed May 13 00:23:42 2009
From: stake at btinternet.com (Chris Stake)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 01:23:42 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W38021E558BCF4CDA336D49CE600@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.964.1242155810.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W38021E558BCF4CDA336D49CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <035901c9d361$12797d10$376c7730$@com>

Loud and clear every time for me Mark.
Many thanks
Chris Stake

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: 12 May 2009 22:28
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available


Hmmm,  problem seems to be with the time-nut archives.  I usually read
messages via the archives,  and the messages are either blank or clipped off
there.

-------------------------------------------The all appear to be getting
through from here Mark. 

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: 12 May 2009 17:30
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available


Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:
_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving HotmailR.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
al_QuickAdd1_052009
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From jmiles at pop.net  Wed May 13 00:50:05 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 17:50:05 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W38021E558BCF4CDA336D49CE600@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEOGBAAC.jmiles@pop.net>

One odd thing about your (Mark's) messages is the behavior of the ones that
have Hotmail advertising footers with URLs pointing to Windows Live.
Although they seem to come through as plaintext, clicking anywhere in the
body of the message (as when I want to bring the message window to the
foreground so I can read it) activates the URL link.  I then have to close
the resulting Firefox tab.

I guess it's some kind of hack on the part of Microsoft to artificially
increase apparent clickthrough ratios.  I've never seen it happen with mail
from anyone else.  It's possible that the time-nuts archiver is having
problems with whatever technique is used to turn the whole message body into
a live link.

(Obviously, messages that have gone through the listserv no longer behave
that way; it's just something I've noticed in messages between us offline
while working on Heather releases.)

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Mark Sims
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 2:28 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
>
>
>
> Hmmm,  problem seems to be with the time-nut archives.  I usually
> read messages via the archives,  and the messages are either
> blank or clipped off there.
>
> -------------------------------------------The all appear to be
> getting through from here Mark.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at
> febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Mark Sims
> Sent: 12 May 2009 17:30
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather version 2.0 now available
>
>
> Lets try it again without any spaces...mayby it will get by MicroCensor:
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL
_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From didier at cox.net  Wed May 13 01:21:50 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 20:21:50 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <4A09D2E8.4080309@erols.com>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>	<BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl><CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>
	<4A09D2E8.4080309@erols.com>
Message-ID: <14618807A634434E828021886F94EEE6@didierhp>

Chuck,

I understand your point.

COSERV is THE official Seiko repair service center in the US. They told me
they usually repair the movements. I called because I was told also that the
movements are replaced, and I wanted to know if they would send me the old
one, but they said they are usually repaired. That is what I was told. Maybe
they simply don't want bad movements being put back in circulation.

I have opened the back of watches that had been repaired (to replace the
battery later), and while I could not tell if the movement had been repaired
or replaced, it was definitely a Seiko movement in the watch, or at least a
good knock-off with the Seiko name on it :)

Anyhow, COSERV does a great job, and that was the original question.

That said, if you know where I can buy a 7T32 movement for $20, I would like
to have one to satisfy my curiosity.

Didier KO4BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 2:50 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
> 
> As an amateur watchmaker, I have some news for you.  Quartz 
> movements are cheap and cannot reasonably be repaired.  The 
> movements are always replaced.  They cost around $20 for the 
> very complex crono movements with multiple dials.
> 
> If you go to an authorized Seiko "repair" place, you might 
> actually get a real Seiko movement put back in your watch, 
> but most of the time, you will get a Chinese knockoff 
> movement that they will glue to the back of your dial.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> 
> As a watchmaker, you can't even open the case for $70.
> Didier Juges wrote:
> > My favorite Seiko watches all have the 7T32 analog movement 
> > (quartz). 
> > It is probably the most complex quartz analog movement 
> > Seiko made. All three 7T32 watches I had repaired (by COSERV) 
> > cost me $70 or so for the movement repair, and a few more $ 
> > for replacing the crystal and crowns. 
> > Movement replacement is quite a bit more expensive, I never 
> > had to have a Seiko movement replaced. Watches with 7T32 movements 
> > cost about $350 when they were sold new, ~15-20 years ago. 
> > I bought a "new old stock" 7T32 Seiko watch last year on eBay for much 
> > less. It was (and still is) working perfectly.
> > 
> > Didier
> > 



From cfharris at erols.com  Wed May 13 03:57:56 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:57:56 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <14618807A634434E828021886F94EEE6@didierhp>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>	<BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl><CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>	<4A09D2E8.4080309@erols.com>
	<14618807A634434E828021886F94EEE6@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A0A4544.1040503@erols.com>

Hi Didier,

My usual source is:  http://www.julesborel.com/  Follow the menu
to the watch movements, and then to Seiko.  The prices you see are
list.  Volume and repeat business gets you a better price.

It appears that the 7T32 is now unavailable, but I am certain one
of the movements in the $20 range would be adaptable.

I notice that I worded one of my sentences awkwardly so that it
sounded like I was saying CORSERV might put a knockoff movement
into a Seiko watch.  That was not what I intended to say at all.
I am sure that CORSERV will put a Seiko movement in your Seiko... It
just won't be your original movement.

It takes more time to tear down your original movement, clean it,
make any repairs, and put it back together than it did for the factory
assembly line to build it in the first place.

I have heard stories of people sending in high quality self-winding
Seiko's, Heuers, etc. for service at their respective factory authorized
repair facilities, and having them come back with quartz movements.
It is much cheaper and easier to do that than to service a watch.  For
most people, that isn't a problem, because all the watch meant to them
is wrist jewelry.

-Chuck Harris



Didier wrote:
> Chuck,
> 
> I understand your point.
> 
> COSERV is THE official Seiko repair service center in the US. They told me
> they usually repair the movements. I called because I was told also that the
> movements are replaced, and I wanted to know if they would send me the old
> one, but they said they are usually repaired. That is what I was told. Maybe
> they simply don't want bad movements being put back in circulation.
> 
> I have opened the back of watches that had been repaired (to replace the
> battery later), and while I could not tell if the movement had been repaired
> or replaced, it was definitely a Seiko movement in the watch, or at least a
> good knock-off with the Seiko name on it :)
> 
> Anyhow, COSERV does a great job, and that was the original question.
> 
> That said, if you know where I can buy a 7T32 movement for $20, I would like
> to have one to satisfy my curiosity.
> 
> Didier KO4BB
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 2:50 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
>>
>> As an amateur watchmaker, I have some news for you.  Quartz 
>> movements are cheap and cannot reasonably be repaired.  The 
>> movements are always replaced.  They cost around $20 for the 
>> very complex crono movements with multiple dials.
>>
>> If you go to an authorized Seiko "repair" place, you might 
>> actually get a real Seiko movement put back in your watch, 
>> but most of the time, you will get a Chinese knockoff 
>> movement that they will glue to the back of your dial.
>>
>> -Chuck Harris
>>
>>
>> As a watchmaker, you can't even open the case for $70.
>> Didier Juges wrote:
>>> My favorite Seiko watches all have the 7T32 analog movement 
>>> (quartz). 
>>> It is probably the most complex quartz analog movement 
>>> Seiko made. All three 7T32 watches I had repaired (by COSERV) 
>>> cost me $70 or so for the movement repair, and a few more $ 
>>> for replacing the crystal and crowns. 
>>> Movement replacement is quite a bit more expensive, I never 
>>> had to have a Seiko movement replaced. Watches with 7T32 movements 
>>> cost about $350 when they were sold new, ~15-20 years ago. 
>>> I bought a "new old stock" 7T32 Seiko watch last year on eBay for much 
>>> less. It was (and still is) working perfectly.
>>>
>>> Didier
>>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From cfharris at erols.com  Wed May 13 04:10:03 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 00:10:03 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch
In-Reply-To: <4A0A4544.1040503@erols.com>
References: <mailman.958.1242145772.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>	<BLU125-W5880761C2B233F43BD055CE600@phx.gbl><CE1E95FECCA74938A8DB23D8151640ED@keltec.sigtech.com>	<4A09D2E8.4080309@erols.com>	<14618807A634434E828021886F94EEE6@didierhp>
	<4A0A4544.1040503@erols.com>
Message-ID: <4A0A481B.9030901@erols.com>

Hi again Didier,

For some examples of really cheap Chinese movements that would
fit in your watch, look at the julesborel site under Miyota.  They
have some in the $11 range.

-Chuck Harris

Chuck Harris wrote:
> Hi Didier,
> 
> My usual source is:  http://www.julesborel.com/  Follow the menu
> to the watch movements, and then to Seiko.  The prices you see are
> list.  Volume and repeat business gets you a better price.
> 
> It appears that the 7T32 is now unavailable, but I am certain one
> of the movements in the $20 range would be adaptable.
> 
> I notice that I worded one of my sentences awkwardly so that it
> sounded like I was saying CORSERV might put a knockoff movement
> into a Seiko watch.  That was not what I intended to say at all.
> I am sure that CORSERV will put a Seiko movement in your Seiko... It
> just won't be your original movement.
> 
> It takes more time to tear down your original movement, clean it,
> make any repairs, and put it back together than it did for the factory
> assembly line to build it in the first place.
> 
> I have heard stories of people sending in high quality self-winding
> Seiko's, Heuers, etc. for service at their respective factory authorized
> repair facilities, and having them come back with quartz movements.
> It is much cheaper and easier to do that than to service a watch.  For
> most people, that isn't a problem, because all the watch meant to them
> is wrist jewelry.
> 
> -Chuck Harris


From bill at iaxs.net  Wed May 13 04:29:09 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:29:09 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market
	inPlymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <b3bd5fcb0905111518n5bd3388bi510b3aaebd59f47e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu><F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
	<b3bd5fcb0905111518n5bd3388bi510b3aaebd59f47e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CF0C19E88917432BA77725E7244FAACB@cyrus>

Bob,

This list has no way to reply to you directly, which makes sense most
of the time. There has been no local interest in my list, so it's all
gonna stay in storage.

Back in 1958, I worked on a package for an Aerobee High at White Sands,
and lived in a motel in Las Cruces for three weeks. Great stuff for a
young man dreaming of the stars.

So, it crosses my mind to return to NM with a truck, since I'm retired.

How serious are you about this stuff, and why? Got anything to trade?

Bill
bill at iaxs.net
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Darlington
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:18 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market
inPlymouth MN

Too bad you're not coming to New Mexico.  I'd buy most of that list!

-Bob




From rdarlington at gmail.com  Wed May 13 05:08:25 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 23:08:25 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market
	inPlymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <CF0C19E88917432BA77725E7244FAACB@cyrus>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com> 
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
	<F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus> 
	<b3bd5fcb0905111518n5bd3388bi510b3aaebd59f47e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<CF0C19E88917432BA77725E7244FAACB@cyrus>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905122208g5d09fe94w4dda6d33a0080c82@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bill,

Pretty serious, just for hobby stuff.  I'm just getting into precision time
keeping in the last 6 months or so.  A buddy of mine gave me a Tektronix
2901 time mark generator a while back which I was about to use to cal some
of my scopes when it hit me that I really have no way to know that IT is in
cal.  From there I it went all wrong!   I built a custom ntp server for work
(copied TVB's Soekris system but used a home-made gps receiver board (Lassen
iQ receiver)), use  a rubidium oscillator for my in-house (literally)
frequency standard, am waiting on the next set of Thunderbolt gpsdo's to
become available, etc.   In other words, I caught the bug.  I'm currently
wrestling with an Austron 2000C loran receiver which I was hoping to use to
cal my rubidium osc. but can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.  The manual
describes something other than what I see on 3 different scopes so I don't
think it's my scopes that are the problem.  At this point I'm just going to
hold out for the Thunderbolt but wouldn't mind a Cs standard.  I was bidding
on an HP unit but was very very quickly outbid once news of it hit the list.

I'm also a ham operator working on microwave amplifier projects, HF tube
amps, and various other things.  I even go to work when I have time for it.


I'll go through the list of stuff to weed out what I really can't use, but I
am interested in the vast majority of it.

As far as trades go, I'm more of the hoarding type than trading type  I'm
sure you understand this :).  I have some old sgi computer equipment but
past that stuff I can't really part with much.  A buddy of mine said he was
giving me a spiffy Fluke kelvin-varley divider / precision meter (10
digits?) but that never manifested.  I'm not a volt nut (yet) and I haven't
had much need past 3 decmal places, let alone the 6.5 my Keithly gives me so
I have no need for it if it does land in my hands.  My test equipment is
barely adequate to support all the stuff I do so I tend to borrow and beg
for things depending on the project.

My finances are tied up because I just moved but I am catching up.  Let me
know if you decide to come out this way, or I can meet you half way or
something.   I'm not in any rush.

-Bob

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:29 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:

> Bob,
>
> This list has no way to reply to you directly, which makes sense most
> of the time. There has been no local interest in my list, so it's all
> gonna stay in storage.
>
> Back in 1958, I worked on a package for an Aerobee High at White Sands,
> and lived in a motel in Las Cruces for three weeks. Great stuff for a
> young man dreaming of the stars.
>
> So, it crosses my mind to return to NM with a truck, since I'm retired.
>
> How serious are you about this stuff, and why? Got anything to trade?
>
> Bill
> bill at iaxs.net
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert Darlington
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:18 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market
> inPlymouth MN
>
> Too bad you're not coming to New Mexico.  I'd buy most of that list!
>
> -Bob
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl  Wed May 13 06:57:00 2009
From: j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl (Jeroen Bastemeijer)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:57:00 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
In-Reply-To: <20090512171042.682E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090512171042.682E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A0A6F3C.60702@tudelft.nl>

Hello Hal,

The serial connection is not the problem (unfortunately). It seems a 
thermal problem.... When I switch on the unit it takes a couple of 
minutes before the Error-LED starts flashing. Doing a "fast" power-cycle 
immediately gives an error-warning (the red-LED start flashing almost 
immediately after switch-on). When I let the unit cool down for some 
time (say ten minutes) it takes a couple of minutes before the error-LED 
comes on.

What I will try next is use some cool-spray on the DC-DC converters and 
see if that gives any change in the behaviour.

To my opninion everything inside gets quite warm... Maybe it is a bad 
capacitor (high ESR).

Is there any other good source for technical information on these units 
(schematics, service docs etc.)? Except for the manual wihich is on 
Didiers page?

73 Jeroen PE1RGE

Hal Murray wrote:
>> The unit used to work.... so dip-switch, cable etc. are OK. The thing
>> I  suspect is indeed, some problem with the FLASH and/or EPROM.
>> However, I  have no useful source of information about that. 
>>     
>
> Did it work with the serial port connected to a PC like you are using now?  
> Or did you just see the green LED go on?
>
> What happens if you try it without the serial connection?  (There are some 
> control signals on that connector that may not match normal RS-232 usage.)
>
>   
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From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed May 13 08:10:06 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 01:10:06 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
In-Reply-To: Message from Jeroen Bastemeijer <j.bastemeijer@tudelft.nl> 
	of "Wed, 13 May 2009 08:57:00 +0200." <4A0A6F3C.60702@tudelft.nl> 
Message-ID: <20090513081007.E43A4BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> The serial connection is not the problem (unfortunately). It seems a
> thermal problem.... When I switch on the unit it takes a couple of
> minutes before the Error-LED starts flashing. Doing a "fast"
> power-cycle  immediately gives an error-warning (the red-LED start
> flashing almost  immediately after switch-on). When I let the unit
> cool down for some  time (say ten minutes) it takes a couple of
> minutes before the error-LED  comes on. 

I don't have any good suggestions.


> To my opninion everything inside gets quite warm... Maybe it is a bad
> capacitor (high ESR).

The crystal is ovenized so I'd expect that area to be warm.

DC-DC bricks get more than warm when running at full power.  But after the 
crystal warms up the load should drop way down.

I took mine apart and was pleased to find a DC-DC brick.  I found the data 
sheet via google.  It says 20 watts and 9-36V (wide range) input.  That was 
nice since I had 24V handy but didn't have 15V.  The data sheet says 81% 
efficiency, slightly lower at low loads.

My unit gets just barely warm as measured by my fingers on the outside of the 
box.  I don't know what it's like inside.

If you don't find anything obviously wrong/hot when poking around, I can take 
the cover off mine and get some reference temperatures.

It might be worthwhile measuring the input voltage/current, both during and 
after the crystal warms up.








-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From jason at extremeoverclocking.com  Wed May 13 13:47:45 2009
From: jason at extremeoverclocking.com (Jason Rabel)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:47:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
Message-ID: <56BE69AD1E034E28BF8F0004BF009DB5@Inspiron>

Jeroen,

I have a GPS-4 too and gathered some documentation for it a while back. I'll have to dig around on my hard drive but I seem to
recall having at least two versions of the PDF manual. I do not know what the difference was between them. Anything I can find I'll
be sure to let you (and the list) know.

You can also try to email Brandywine support, sometimes they reply, sometimes they don't.

BTW, has anyone done a comparison between the GPS-4 & T-Bolt?

Jason



From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Wed May 13 15:13:10 2009
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 11:13:10 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market in
	Plymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
	<F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
Message-ID: <c9ffea950905130813q7ec10e73pb3256c6f3a5b46d9@mail.gmail.com>

I would be interested in the FTS4040A - need to figure out shipping
cost to 03303 - Greyhound is another option

- Scott

On Mon, May 11, 2009 at 6:02 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
> Group,
>
> Lack of space has become the primary problem here.
>
> I will be at a flea market in Plymouth, MN, at the Comfort Inn, 3000
> Harbor Lane 55447.
> The market is from dawn to 2 PM on Saturday 15 May. Don't look for me
> before 7:30, though.
>
> Have an FTS 4040A Cesium standard and its shipping container, works,
> $400.
> Will bring on request, as the box is about 3'x4'x1.5'
>
> Other things that work: (Note: if there's no interest in an item, it
> stays home)
>
> Fluke 207 VLF receiver, with 60 KHz selection, $50
> Tracor 599K VLF receiver, to 99.9 KHz, $50
> Spectracom WWVB comparator with recorder, 8212, 8150, and 8163 in a Tek
> TM506, $150
> ?(also includes a Tek PS503A dual PS for TM506, and DM 501A digital
> multimeter)
> Datum PRR-10 GPS receiver, $100
> HP5065 Rubidium standard, $200
> Tracor 308A Rubidium standard, $100
> HP3335A synthesizer $200
> Austron 1290A standby power supply, less batteries, $40
> Datum 9310 time-code generator, as used by NASA, $30
> Fluke 853A differential frequency meter, $15
> Tracor 704 phase meter, $10
> Datum 9xxx time-code generators, free but not tested, many divide 1 MHz
> to 1 PPS
> Borg O-564 crystal frequency standard, missing parts, free
> Systron-Donner 6153 counter-timer, free
> Kinemetrics 468 DC receiver for GOES, unused, free
> Austron Loran C monitor, has two digital readouts and a 3" diagonal
> scope, free
>
> If you don't like a price, feel free to discuss it. Please write for
> details.
>
> Bill Hawkins
> bill at iaxs.net ? (no point in worrying about spam harvesters now)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From rdarlington at gmail.com  Wed May 13 15:29:47 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 09:29:47 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market
	inPlymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <b3bd5fcb0905122208g5d09fe94w4dda6d33a0080c82@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com> 
	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
	<F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus> 
	<b3bd5fcb0905111518n5bd3388bi510b3aaebd59f47e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<CF0C19E88917432BA77725E7244FAACB@cyrus>
	<b3bd5fcb0905122208g5d09fe94w4dda6d33a0080c82@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905130829l787c8129yc4dee87b65c2dbfa@mail.gmail.com>

Dang it all.  Sorry guys, didn't mean to drop this on the list.

-Bob

On Tue, May 12, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Robert Darlington
<rdarlington at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> Pretty serious, just for hobby stuff.  I'm just getting into precision time
> keeping in the last 6 months or so.  A buddy of mine
>

From j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl  Wed May 13 15:48:39 2009
From: j.bastemeijer at tudelft.nl (Jeroen Bastemeijer)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 17:48:39 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Unloading time-nuts stuff at a flea market in
 Plymouth MN
In-Reply-To: <F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
References: <mailman.901.1241988696.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>	<1242055771.21696.1.camel@criador.rwic.und.edu>
	<F5BB885EBA4C46CDB2CC519435D1B567@cyrus>
Message-ID: <4A0AEBD7.2020602@tudelft.nl>

Hello Bill,

A question: Would shipping of the FTS4040A to the Netherlands be an 
option? Probably the shipping will be too expensive... Do you have an 
idea about the shipping costs?

Thank you, best regards, Jeroen

Bill Hawkins wrote:
> Group,
>
> Lack of space has become the primary problem here.
>
> I will be at a flea market in Plymouth, MN, at the Comfort Inn, 3000
> Harbor Lane 55447.
> The market is from dawn to 2 PM on Saturday 15 May. Don't look for me
> before 7:30, though.
>
> Have an FTS 4040A Cesium standard and its shipping container, works,
> $400.
> Will bring on request, as the box is about 3'x4'x1.5'
>
> Other things that work: (Note: if there's no interest in an item, it
> stays home)
>
> Fluke 207 VLF receiver, with 60 KHz selection, $50
> Tracor 599K VLF receiver, to 99.9 KHz, $50
> Spectracom WWVB comparator with recorder, 8212, 8150, and 8163 in a Tek
> TM506, $150
>   (also includes a Tek PS503A dual PS for TM506, and DM 501A digital
> multimeter)
> Datum PRR-10 GPS receiver, $100
> HP5065 Rubidium standard, $200
> Tracor 308A Rubidium standard, $100
> HP3335A synthesizer $200
> Austron 1290A standby power supply, less batteries, $40
> Datum 9310 time-code generator, as used by NASA, $30
> Fluke 853A differential frequency meter, $15
> Tracor 704 phase meter, $10
> Datum 9xxx time-code generators, free but not tested, many divide 1 MHz
> to 1 PPS
> Borg O-564 crystal frequency standard, missing parts, free
> Systron-Donner 6153 counter-timer, free
> Kinemetrics 468 DC receiver for GOES, unused, free
> Austron Loran C monitor, has two digital readouts and a 3" diagonal
> scope, free
>
> If you don't like a price, feel free to discuss it. Please write for
> details.
>
> Bill Hawkins
> bill at iaxs.net   (no point in worrying about spam harvesters now)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>   
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From W4wj at aol.com  Wed May 13 16:38:16 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:38:16 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] OFF TOPIC... Seiko Digital Watch... Clarification...
Message-ID: <bc4.4986b485.373c5178@aol.com>

I appreciate all the comments...
 
The Seiko watches in question are Digital Display  types...
No mechanisims...  Other than the  pushbuttons...
 
TIA...
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ
**************Dell Mini Netbooks: Great deals starting at $299 after 
instant savings! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221972443x1201442012/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B214819441%3B36680237%3Bi)

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Wed May 13 21:05:32 2009
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 22:05:32 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
Message-ID: <4A0B361C.4050106@philpem.me.uk>

Just out of idle curiosity, is there any significant difference in 1PPS 
accuracy between different GPS modules?

I've got a pair of Trimble SVeeSix CM3 boards (firmware 4.13 if memory serves, 
have to be reflashed to change the comm protocol, which can be either TSIP or 
NMEA) and an Axiom Sandpiper (SiRFStar II, RAM only, no onboard NVM, SiRF 
Binary or NMEA switchable on-the-fly) which are specified at 1us and 40ns 
accuracy respectively. As a comparison point, I've also been looking at the 
Fastrax iTrax321 (IT321) which is a solder-down "micro-GPS" module based on 
the "20-channel" SiRFStar III and is -- like the Trimble -- specced at 1us 
accuracy. This is one of the newer SiRFStar III based design.

Am I missing something blindingly obvious here, or is there really that much 
spread in 1PPS accuracy on commercial receiver boards?

Is 1us jitter really that good for a GPS module?

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed May 13 21:33:54 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 23:33:54 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: <4A0B361C.4050106@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4A0B361C.4050106@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4A0B3CC2.40809@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Philip Pemberton skrev:
> Just out of idle curiosity, is there any significant difference in 1PPS 
> accuracy between different GPS modules?
> 
> I've got a pair of Trimble SVeeSix CM3 boards (firmware 4.13 if memory 
> serves, have to be reflashed to change the comm protocol, which can be 
> either TSIP or NMEA) and an Axiom Sandpiper (SiRFStar II, RAM only, no 
> onboard NVM, SiRF Binary or NMEA switchable on-the-fly) which are 
> specified at 1us and 40ns accuracy respectively. As a comparison point, 
> I've also been looking at the Fastrax iTrax321 (IT321) which is a 
> solder-down "micro-GPS" module based on the "20-channel" SiRFStar III 
> and is -- like the Trimble -- specced at 1us accuracy. This is one of 
> the newer SiRFStar III based design.
> 
> Am I missing something blindingly obvious here, or is there really that 
> much spread in 1PPS accuracy on commercial receiver boards?
> 
> Is 1us jitter really that good for a GPS module?

The 1 us figure is a historic figure relating to a worst case degrades 
GPS constellation situation when the 24 sat constellation has degraded 
significantly etc. This number comes out of ICD-200. A more commonly 
referred figure is 340 ns which is what the GPS constellation with SA 
enabled. In the SA-disabled world seeing lower numbers as 60-40 ns is 
not unreasnoble. Old 6 or 8 channel receivers was adequate for the older 
constellation situation, but seing 10-12 sats in todays world is not 
unreasnoble and naturally will the bias effects and other noise 
processes be lower. In addition has receiver technology advanced to 
better suppress various imperfections such as multi-path, weak signals 
and quick locking. In the other end, awareness of how the PPS is being 
used have improved how the PPS signal is generated and producing 
"sawtooth corrections" enables lower time quantization noise.

Old receivers can perform better in todays world, so we could modernize 
the specs by comparing them with newer boards in todays environment.

I am not sure if you really got a real answer, but hopefully may some of 
the difference become explainable to some degree.

Cheers,
Magnus


From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de  Thu May 14 10:42:48 2009
From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:42:48 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: <4A0B361C.4050106@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2@athlon>

Phil,

as soon as a receiver sees more than 3 sats there is redundant information
available. The receiver can use this redundant information in two ways:

a) to improve the solutions for the position

or 

b) to improve the solutions for the time

but not both at the same time. 

That implies that there are good position receivers available and good
timing receivers but not any that is suited well for both purposes (which
matches the market siuation pretty well). On a not-timing receiver the PPS
is more or less a useless gimick which may have accuracies as bad as 1 us or
even more. Dont't worry: These receivers are not made with a precise PPS in
mind. On the other hand: If a good timing receiver has ended his "site
survey" it's position messages stay constant, even if you move it around.
Obviously that is not what you expect from a navigation system. Keep
navigation and timing receivers clear apart from each other. They are as
different as horse and zebra.

Best regards
Ulrich Bangert

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Philip Pemberton
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 13. Mai 2009 23:06
> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Betreff: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
> 
> 
> Just out of idle curiosity, is there any significant 
> difference in 1PPS 
> accuracy between different GPS modules?
> 
> I've got a pair of Trimble SVeeSix CM3 boards (firmware 4.13 
> if memory serves, 
> have to be reflashed to change the comm protocol, which can 
> be either TSIP or 
> NMEA) and an Axiom Sandpiper (SiRFStar II, RAM only, no 
> onboard NVM, SiRF 
> Binary or NMEA switchable on-the-fly) which are specified at 
> 1us and 40ns 
> accuracy respectively. As a comparison point, I've also been 
> looking at the 
> Fastrax iTrax321 (IT321) which is a solder-down "micro-GPS" 
> module based on 
> the "20-channel" SiRFStar III and is -- like the Trimble -- 
> specced at 1us 
> accuracy. This is one of the newer SiRFStar III based design.
> 
> Am I missing something blindingly obvious here, or is there 
> really that much 
> spread in 1PPS accuracy on commercial receiver boards?
> 
> Is 1us jitter really that good for a GPS module?
> 
> Thanks,
> -- 
> Phil.
> lists at philpem.me.uk
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Thu May 14 10:48:33 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 10:48:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 2009 12:42:48 +0200."
	<E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2@athlon> 
Message-ID: <33768.1242298113@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2 at athlon>, "Ulrich Bangert" writes:

>The receiver can use this redundant information in two ways:
>a) to improve the solutions for the position
>or 
>b) to improve the solutions for the time
>
>but not both at the same time. 

That's just bogus.

First of all, you need four sats for a complete solution: X+Y+Z+T, second
the more sats you add after that, provided they do contribute gainfully,
will improve both the position and time solutions, for the very simple
reasons that they are one and the same solution.

Once you go to position-hold mode, all the sats contribute to is the
time solution, and in principle one sat is enough to get a solution,
because, as the name implies, you stop treating X+Y+Z as variables.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu May 14 11:37:30 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:37:30 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: <33768.1242298113@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <33768.1242298113@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A0C027A.8060303@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning Kamp skrev:
> In message <E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2 at athlon>, "Ulrich Bangert" writes:
> 
>> The receiver can use this redundant information in two ways:
>> a) to improve the solutions for the position
>> or 
>> b) to improve the solutions for the time
>>
>> but not both at the same time. 
> 
> That's just bogus.
> 
> First of all, you need four sats for a complete solution: X+Y+Z+T, second
> the more sats you add after that, provided they do contribute gainfully,
> will improve both the position and time solutions, for the very simple
> reasons that they are one and the same solution.
> 
> Once you go to position-hold mode, all the sats contribute to is the
> time solution, and in principle one sat is enough to get a solution,
> because, as the name implies, you stop treating X+Y+Z as variables.
> 

I totally agree. This is well covered in the books that go into the deep 
details of GPS navigation.

3D positioning requires at least 4 sats for resolving X, Y, Z and T 
coordinates, which translates to Lat, Long, heigth and T.

2D positioning requires at least 3 sats for resolving Lat, Long, T 
(really X, Y, Z and T which a fixed relationship between X, Y and Z so 
given two the third will be given, as the heigth is assumed).

T positioning requires at least 1 sat for resolving T.

Also, you can use the redundant information to identify false-tickers 
and remove them before final position is calculated, this is done by 
making a preliminary calculation and then compare the calculated time 
with the pseudo-range value for each and let those being significantly 
off be removed.

The pseudo-range system make the time of the receiver a critical 
variable to establish. The stability of the receives time will therefore 
also be a critical parameter in order to establish good quality 
positional values. High short-term stability oscillators is being 
deployed even in simple L1 receivers to reduce LO phase noise and its 
effect on code and carrier pseudo-range measures. All pseudo-ranges will 
depend on the actual distatance, but also on the time of the sat and the 
receiver. The sat time is being corrected into propper GPS time by 
additional correction values, such that remaining timing errors is to be 
found in the receiver. Phase offsets of the signal from the sats center 
of mass is also given, since it is the center of mass which the 
positional values of the sat indicate.

The receiver uses the previous time estimates to correct its own clock 
and advanced receivers use Kalman filtering for optimum clock 
estimation. Each positional solution also feeds the clock algorithm so 
that the clock is steered towards a zero offest. The pseudo-ranges is 
samples with a sample clock, which has known deviation from the local clock.

In the end, I can't see how this type of receiver would fit the claim 
that one has to optimize for position or time. It does not make sense to 
me, as I know the system. What is true is that not all receivers has the 
algorithms to provide optimum time solutions in the fixed geografical 
position (it's not fixed in time position). The same receivers where one 
has the time option performs the same on normal positioning. In fixed 
position the solution part of the receiver must know that the position 
is fixed in order to resolve all pseudo-ranges into time-offset only.

So, 3D positioning does not give the same time-stability as a fixed 
position does, that is true, but it is not the same as being claimed.

Cheers,
Magnus


From david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com  Thu May 14 12:03:17 2009
From: david.partridge at dsl.pipex.com (David C. Partridge)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:03:17 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] OT: Source of low-thermal Cd-Sn solder in the UK?
Message-ID: <EFDC0606F1D042FC8B988C5AA7C186FC@APOLLO>

I'm looking for a source for low-thermal EMF solder (Cadmium-Tin probably)
in the UK.

If anyone can point to a source for this and indeed of Te-Cu bannana
plugs/sockets/other connectors that I can wire up myself (Pomona only seem
to sell pre-wired ones in Te-Cu).

Many thanks
Dave



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu May 14 18:50:27 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 11:50:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
	of "Thu,
	14 May 2009 13:37:30 +0200." <4A0C027A.8060303@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
Message-ID: <20090514185028.EFD92BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> 2D positioning requires at least 3 sats for resolving Lat, Long, T
> (really X, Y, Z and T which a fixed relationship between X, Y and Z so
> given two the third will be given, as the heigth is assumed). 

This has been discussed before, but I still don't really understand it.

I assume they take the data and solve what they can.  The answer will be a 
line in X,Y, Z and T.  Do they just pick the point on Z=0?  How much timing 
error does that turn into?

That is, if I move up 100 meters along that line, how much does T change?

I assume the answer is "not much", but I don't have a good feel for the 
numbers.  Is it lost in the other sources of noise?  Or at least not big 
relative to them?

At 1ft per ns, 100 meters is 300 ns.  But lots of places on Earth are much 
higher elevation than 100 meters.  (I just used 100 meters as an example.)  
But that's the number for a satellite directly overhead.  The geometry fudges 
things.  If the satellites are low, the change in time will be close to zero.

What's the average angle of a satellite?  (or ones used in a GPS solution 
when you can only get 3 of them?)



There is another layer of fudging involved in the how-many-satellites 
discussion.  Sometimes the geometry is degenerate.  If the satellites are in 
(or close) to a line, you don't get a position offset to the side of the 
projection of that line on the surface of the Earth.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Thu May 14 19:45:27 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 12:45:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
Message-ID: <26674798.1242330327420.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.

A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?

Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ


From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk  Thu May 14 20:09:24 2009
From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 21:09:24 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
Message-ID: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>

Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?

I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux fedora on it and I'm 
keen to learn how to make it a useful new member of my network.

I did dabble with Redhat Linux once before in the 1990s, and still have 
the scars to show for it, so please don't assume that I know what I'm 
doing...

Thanks

Dave (G0DJA)


From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Thu May 14 20:10:21 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:10:21 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
In-Reply-To: <26674798.1242330327420.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <26674798.1242330327420.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A0C7AAD.6080107@sasktel.net>

Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have 
one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want 
to know?

Ed

Richard W. Solomon wrote:
> I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
> which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
> by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
> on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.
>
> A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
> anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?
>
> Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>   



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu May 14 20:47:53 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 13:47:53 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Message from Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja@tiscali.co.uk> 
	of "Thu, 14 May 2009 21:09:24 BST." <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk> 
Message-ID: <20090514204754.7707ABCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux fedora on it and I'm
> keen to learn how to make it a useful new member of my network.

It's probably already running ntpd and setup to get time from a few pool 
machines out on the net.

Start by doing:
  ntpq -p
If that works, look in /etc/ntp.conf

The official ntp documentation starts as html files.  There may be scripts 
that turn them into man pages.  They may be out of date, misleading or 
missing a lot of critical info.  The html stuff may get installed on your 
system.  If not, be sure to get the html pages that correspond to the version 
of ntpd that you are running.

If you want better time, you need a local source of time.  ntpd calls them 
refclocks.

If you want seriously good time, you need the PPS mods to the kernel.  I've 
lost track of where they come from and/or what the current status is.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From rdarlington at gmail.com  Thu May 14 21:23:58 2009
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Robert Darlington)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:23:58 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <b3bd5fcb0905141423w4f2fc8e0q5a951ee5fb35ee48@mail.gmail.com>

RedHat in the 90s was terrible.  It's much better now.

Last thing I read about ntp was that it was kind of broken for high
precision stuff on Linux and people tend to use FreeBSD.  I duplicated the
work of one of the time-nuts by following his site here:

http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/

Even with all of the details there it still required a great effort on my
part to get things up and running to where I have them now.  If you decide
to go this route I will be more than happy to send you a copy of the image
on my CF card so that you'll have a working system out of the box.  I had to
recompile ntp because the current FreeBSD distro didn't have support for
something (NMEA I think, of all things!).

-Bob


On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk>wrote:

> Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?
>
> I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux fedora on it and I'm keen
> to learn how to make it a useful new member of my network.
>
> I did dabble with Redhat Linux once before in the 1990s, and still have the
> scars to show for it, so please don't assume that I know what I'm doing...
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave (G0DJA)
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May 14 21:24:56 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:24:56 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <4A0C7A74.50901 at tiscali.co.uk>
            Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk> writes:
: Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?
: 
: I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux fedora on it and I'm 
: keen to learn how to make it a useful new member of my network.
: 
: I did dabble with Redhat Linux once before in the 1990s, and still have 
: the scars to show for it, so please don't assume that I know what I'm 
: doing...

I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.

:)

Warner


From scottr9 at yahoo.com  Thu May 14 21:34:16 2009
From: scottr9 at yahoo.com (Randy Scott)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 14:34:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
Message-ID: <814877.28293.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com>


Is there any consensus for the reasons why Linux performs poorly?  I was thinking about setting up a server as well (possibly using a little ARM-based single-board computer that runs Linux).

Randy.
 

--- On Thu, 5/14/09, Robert Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 4:23 PM
> RedHat in the 90s was terrible.?
> It's much better now.
> 
> Last thing I read about ntp was that it was kind of broken
> for high
> precision stuff on Linux and people tend to use
> FreeBSD.? I duplicated the
> work of one of the time-nuts by following his site here:
> 
> http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/
> 
> Even with all of the details there it still required a
> great effort on my
> part to get things up and running to where I have them
> now.? If you decide
> to go this route I will be more than happy to send you a
> copy of the image
> on my CF card so that you'll have a working system out of
> the box.? I had to
> recompile ntp because the current FreeBSD distro didn't
> have support for
> something (NMEA I think, of all things!).
> 
> -Bob
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk>wrote:
> 
> > Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?
> >
> > I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux
> fedora on it and I'm keen
> > to learn how to make it a useful new member of my
> network.
> >
> > I did dabble with Redhat Linux once before in the
> 1990s, and still have the
> > scars to show for it, so please don't assume that I
> know what I'm doing...
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave (G0DJA)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From mikes at flatsurface.com  Thu May 14 21:56:04 2009
From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 17:56:04 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20090514215605.E6EB81165C1@hamburg.alientech.net>

At 05:24 PM 5/14/2009, M. Warner Losh wrote...
>I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.

Ouch. In some circles, those are fightin' words.

FreeBSD is _not_ Linux, in any way except being Unix-like. 



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu May 14 22:00:29 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:00:29 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Message from Randy Scott <scottr9@yahoo.com> of "Thu,
	14 May 2009 14:34:16 PDT."
	<814877.28293.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <20090514220030.68E47BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> Is there any consensus for the reasons why Linux performs poorly?  I
> was thinking about setting up a server as well (possibly using a
> little ARM-based single-board computer that runs Linux). 

Consensus?  I doubt it.

My reading.  Lots of cooks.  None of them are time geeks.

There are a lot of people working on Linux.  A lot of them are smart.  A lot 
of them are not plugged into the culture of key chunks of technology so they 
"fix" or "clean up" some code in ways that actually breaks things.

There are "only" a few big screwups that are on my list these days.
  No PPS support.
  The TSC calibration code is broken.  (and it's the default mode)
  The in-kernel NTP support code is broken.

The last two work, just not quite correctly.  They are close enough so that 
you probably won't notice any problems unless you are a geek.

One of the things that is driving some of the changes is making things work 
better for low power applications.  The old scheduler used to do a bit of 
work every clock tick (100 HZ to 1000 HZ).  That chews up a lot of power if 
your battery powered system goes to sleep when there is nothing to do.  So it 
seems reasonable to look ahead in the scheduler queue and figure out how long 
until the next time there is work to do and sleep until then.
 



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May 14 22:15:23 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:15:23 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090514220030.68E47BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <scottr9@yahoo.com>
	<20090514220030.68E47BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <20090514.161523.-1090055457.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090514220030.68E47BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
            Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> writes:
: 
: > Is there any consensus for the reasons why Linux performs poorly?  I
: > was thinking about setting up a server as well (possibly using a
: > little ARM-based single-board computer that runs Linux). 
: 
: Consensus?  I doubt it.
: 
: My reading.  Lots of cooks.  None of them are time geeks.

Many of these cooks have firmly held, strong views on how things
should be done, which also gets in the way of having a reasonable
discussion about why those views hurt time performance.  At least
that's been my experience.

On FreeBSD you have phk@ and I which works better...

: There are a lot of people working on Linux.  A lot of them are smart.  A lot 
: of them are not plugged into the culture of key chunks of technology so they 
: "fix" or "clean up" some code in ways that actually breaks things.

Many times the fixes neglect edge cases, or dismiss the need to get
them right at all (like: who cares if the system time is off by a
second, ntpd will steer that out).

: There are "only" a few big screwups that are on my list these days.
:   No PPS support.
:   The TSC calibration code is broken.  (and it's the default mode)
:   The in-kernel NTP support code is broken.
: 
: The last two work, just not quite correctly.  They are close enough so that 
: you probably won't notice any problems unless you are a geek.

True enough...  If you are, you are way too much about it, but if you
don't it doesn't bother you at all...

: One of the things that is driving some of the changes is making
: things work better for low power applications.  The old scheduler
: used to do a bit of work every clock tick (100 HZ to 1000 HZ).  That
: chews up a lot of power if your battery powered system goes to sleep
: when there is nothing to do.  So it seems reasonable to look ahead
: in the scheduler queue and figure out how long until the next time
: there is work to do and sleep until then.

The problem is that these can't easily be turned off...  The other
problem that the tickless stuff starts to expose is that many of these
platforms have counters that can be used for time keeping, but they
wrap too quickly to sleep for long...

Anyway, I'm totally biased on this stuff, so you should take me with a
grain of salt.

Warner


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu May 14 22:33:09 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:33:09 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Message from mikes@flatsurface.com (Mike S) of "Thu,
	14 May 2009 17:56:04 EDT."
	<20090514215605.E6EB81165C1@hamburg.alientech.net> 
Message-ID: <20090514223310.0D552BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

>>I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
> Ouch. In some circles, those are fightin' words.

I interpreted it as a joke, like telling a Windows user to install Service 
Pack Linux.

If all you want is to run a time server, FreeBSD will do a better job than 
Linux.  In particular, the Soekris boxes are polular.

If you have a Linux box that you need/use for other stuff, it can also run 
ntpd.  That may or may not be good enough at timekeeping for a time-nut.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From bobm at stanford.edu  Thu May 14 22:38:29 2009
From: bobm at stanford.edu (Bob Marinelli)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 15:38:29 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <814877.28293.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <814877.28293.qm@web57701.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <17B94A0A-F908-4A3C-83C1-5DD1592E3071@stanford.edu>

Assuming you are looking for better time than you can get from just  
network servers, you can add a local time source.

EASY WAY

If you want good time at low cost, and have a generic PC, connect  
something like a Garmin 18x LVC to a serial port and install  
FreeBSD.   Easy to configure and NTPD has reported jitter in the 1 to  
4 microsecond range ever since.

Total elapsed time maybe 2 hours including installing FreeBSD and  
mounting the GPS on the roof.

The FreeBSD folks do a very good job of supporting ntpd with local  
hardware clock sources, and document it well.

HARD WAY

Linux with PPS is still more of a work-in-progress and you should  
expect to have to patch kernels etc.  You will find dozens of kernel  
postings, 1PPS seems to have ended up as a serial line protocol,  
AFAIK it is still not in any distribution base kernel.  If you are  
doing an ARM you will likely have to modify the ARM's serial driver  
to do timestamping, by looking at samples in the 8250 driver PPS  
code.  Certainly quite do-able, but not in 2 hours for most people :)

-Bob

p.s. It was not obvious from the Garmin instructions, but all you  
have to do is crimp the serial wires on the 18x LVC to a 9 pin  
connector, placing the yellow 1 PPS wire on pin 1, plug into the PC's  
serial port and FreeBSD does the rest.  Avoid any PC without an  
actual serial port.  You can pick up +5v from your PC (use a fuse).


On May 14, 2009, at 2:34 PM, Randy Scott wrote:

>
> Is there any consensus for the reasons why Linux performs poorly?   
> I was thinking about setting up a server as well (possibly using a  
> little ARM-based single-board computer that runs Linux).
>
> Randy.
>
>
> --- On Thu, 5/14/09, Robert Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From: Robert Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time- 
>> nuts at febo.com>
>> Date: Thursday, May 14, 2009, 4:23 PM
>> RedHat in the 90s was terrible.
>> It's much better now.
>>
>> Last thing I read about ntp was that it was kind of broken
>> for high
>> precision stuff on Linux and people tend to use
>> FreeBSD.  I duplicated the
>> work of one of the time-nuts by following his site here:
>>
>> http://www.febo.com/pages/soekris/
>>
>> Even with all of the details there it still required a
>> great effort on my
>> part to get things up and running to where I have them
>> now.  If you decide
>> to go this route I will be more than happy to send you a
>> copy of the image
>> on my CF card so that you'll have a working system out of
>> the box.  I had to
>> recompile ntp because the current FreeBSD distro didn't
>> have support for
>> something (NMEA I think, of all things!).
>>
>> -Bob
>>
>>
>> On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Dave Ackrill  
>> <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?
>>>
>>> I now have a PC on my home system that has Linux
>> fedora on it and I'm keen
>>> to learn how to make it a useful new member of my
>> network.
>>>
>>> I did dabble with Redhat Linux once before in the
>> 1990s, and still have the
>>> scars to show for it, so please don't assume that I
>> know what I'm doing...
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> Dave (G0DJA)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/ 
>> listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ 
> time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From imp at bsdimp.com  Thu May 14 22:50:44 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:50:44 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090514223310.0D552BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090514215605.E6EB81165C1@hamburg.alientech.net>
	<20090514223310.0D552BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <20090514.165044.1637256426.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090514223310.0D552BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
            Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> writes:
: >>I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
: > Ouch. In some circles, those are fightin' words.
: 
: I interpreted it as a joke, like telling a Windows user to install Service 
: Pack Linux.

Yes.  It is a joke.  One of the market share firms (netcraft?) had
this as one of the choices for a questions in ~1998 that went
something like:

	Which distribution of Linux do you run
		redhat
		suse
		debian
		freebsd

: If all you want is to run a time server, FreeBSD will do a better job than 
: Linux.  In particular, the Soekris boxes are polular.
: 
: If you have a Linux box that you need/use for other stuff, it can also run 
: ntpd.  That may or may not be good enough at timekeeping for a time-nut.

ntpd works on Linux, it just doesn't perform as well as FreeBSD.  But
the difference in performance typically is in the millisecond range or
10ms range (depending on the kernel version).  For most people, this
is more than good enough.  For subscribers to time-nuts... :)

Warner


From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Fri May 15 00:49:48 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 18:49:48 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
In-Reply-To: <6779145.1242332382260.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <6779145.1242332382260.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A0CBC2C.8000509@sasktel.net>

   Pinout is as follows - I think - remember that this is a work in
   progress
   1 - no connection
   2 - alarm output - High = alarm, low = normal  (TTL)
   3 - probably 'reference fail' - High = fail, low = normal (TTL)
   4 - EFC okay - High if  4V8 < EFC < 7V5 else low (TTL)
   5 - no connection
   6 - buffered EFC voltage for oscillator
   7 - no connection
   8 - +10V reference output from oscillator - doesn't seem to be used for
   anything
   9 - +5V supply (input)
   10 - External EFC input - only used when reference fails
   11 - ground
   12 -    "
   13 -    "
   14 - +24V supply (input) for oscillator
   15 - +15V supply (input)
   You talked about BNC.  Did you mean TNC?  My unit has TNC and SMA
   connectors.  The SMA connectors are all outputs from the oscillator.
   J3 (TNC) is the input from an external 5 MHz reference.  J4 (TNC) is
   another output from the oscillator.  Approximate output levels are as
   follows:
   J2 - +7 dbm
   J4 - 0 dbm
   J5 - 0 dbm
   J6 - +7 dbm
   The purpose of the box is to discipline the internal oscillator to an
   external reference and then distribute the oscillator's signal to four
   outputs.  The level of the external reference can vary over an unknown
   range because there's an internal AGC circuit.  I haven't figured out
   the parameters of the low pass filter used on the output of the phase
   detector.  Just for laughs I took the 10 MHz output of a Navsync CW-12
   GPS board, divided it by 2, and fed it into the reference input.  The
   result wasn't pretty.  Obviously, the circuit wants a smoother source.
   On mine, the oscillator was defective.  I had to hack into it to fix a
   broken wire on the output transformer.  I started a message thread a
   few months back about how to hack into an oscillator - check the
   archive if you need to.
   Remember Engineering Rule #1 - Tune for minimum smoke!
   Ed
   Richard W. Solomon wrote:

Was it that good a deal ?? I'll share my secret, I use Gixen to snipe
on e-Pay. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Do you know the connections for the DB-15 connector ? Then I can do the
smoke test !!
Also what are the BNC and SMA connectors for ? Basically, I know nothing
but would appreciate any help. I will likewise share my findings.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----


From: Ed Palmer [1]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
Sent: May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2]<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box

Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have
one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want
to know?

Ed

Richard W. Solomon wrote:

I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.

A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?

Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- [3]time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- [5]time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

References

   1. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
   2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
   3. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
   4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   5. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
   6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Fri May 15 02:01:39 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:01:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
Message-ID: <4120785.1242352899551.JavaMail.root@elwamui-lapwing.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

That should give me a good start on this. Thanks very much for the info.

Sometimes you find some interesting items "over there". I picked up two
boxes that had 4 SMA's marked 10 MHz, 75 MHz, 750 MHz and 7,975 MHz. They
also had a MIL style power connector with the mate attached.
Turns out they were three oscillators that will lock to a 10 MHz input.
When coupled with my 10 MHz GPSDO, they make great calibration signals
for Service Monitors and Frequency Counters.

I'll keep you posted on what I find.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ed Palmer <ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
>Sent: May 14, 2009 8:49 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
>   Pinout is as follows - I think - remember that this is a work in
>   progress
>   1 - no connection
>   2 - alarm output - High = alarm, low = normal  (TTL)
>   3 - probably 'reference fail' - High = fail, low = normal (TTL)
>   4 - EFC okay - High if  4V8 < EFC < 7V5 else low (TTL)
>   5 - no connection
>   6 - buffered EFC voltage for oscillator
>   7 - no connection
>   8 - +10V reference output from oscillator - doesn't seem to be used for
>   anything
>   9 - +5V supply (input)
>   10 - External EFC input - only used when reference fails
>   11 - ground
>   12 -    "
>   13 -    "
>   14 - +24V supply (input) for oscillator
>   15 - +15V supply (input)
>   You talked about BNC.  Did you mean TNC?  My unit has TNC and SMA
>   connectors.  The SMA connectors are all outputs from the oscillator.
>   J3 (TNC) is the input from an external 5 MHz reference.  J4 (TNC) is
>   another output from the oscillator.  Approximate output levels are as
>   follows:
>   J2 - +7 dbm
>   J4 - 0 dbm
>   J5 - 0 dbm
>   J6 - +7 dbm
>   The purpose of the box is to discipline the internal oscillator to an
>   external reference and then distribute the oscillator's signal to four
>   outputs.  The level of the external reference can vary over an unknown
>   range because there's an internal AGC circuit.  I haven't figured out
>   the parameters of the low pass filter used on the output of the phase
>   detector.  Just for laughs I took the 10 MHz output of a Navsync CW-12
>   GPS board, divided it by 2, and fed it into the reference input.  The
>   result wasn't pretty.  Obviously, the circuit wants a smoother source.
>   On mine, the oscillator was defective.  I had to hack into it to fix a
>   broken wire on the output transformer.  I started a message thread a
>   few months back about how to hack into an oscillator - check the
>   archive if you need to.
>   Remember Engineering Rule #1 - Tune for minimum smoke!
>   Ed
>   Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>Was it that good a deal ?? I'll share my secret, I use Gixen to snipe
>on e-Pay. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
>
>Do you know the connections for the DB-15 connector ? Then I can do the
>smoke test !!
>Also what are the BNC and SMA connectors for ? Basically, I know nothing
>but would appreciate any help. I will likewise share my findings.
>
>73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>
>From: Ed Palmer [1]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
>Sent: May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2]<time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
>Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have
>one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want
>to know?
>
>Ed
>
>Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
>which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
>by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
>on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.
>
>A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
>anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?
>
>Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- [3]time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- [5]time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
>   2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   3. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   5. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May 15 06:45:52 2009
From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 07:45:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>

M. Warner Losh wrote:

> I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.

Thanks for the suggestions to use something else, but not an option.

Like I say, I *have* fedora, I'm not planning to uninstall it as it was 
installed for me and I don't want the hassle.  HI

Dave (G0DJA)


From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 15 07:02:05 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 01:02:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <4A0D0FA0.3020706 at tiscali.co.uk>
            Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk> writes:
: M. Warner Losh wrote:
: 
: > I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
: 
: Thanks for the suggestions to use something else, but not an option.
: 
: Like I say, I *have* fedora, I'm not planning to uninstall it as it was 
: installed for me and I don't want the hassle.  HI

Then just install ntpd and be done with it.

If you want sub-microsecond sync to a PPS, you'll be disappointed.  If
you want about 10ms over a LAN, then you'll be happy.

Warner


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 15 09:46:28 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 11:46:28 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: <20090514185028.EFD92BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090514185028.EFD92BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A0D39F4.6060508@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hal Murray skrev:
>> 2D positioning requires at least 3 sats for resolving Lat, Long, T
>> (really X, Y, Z and T which a fixed relationship between X, Y and Z so
>> given two the third will be given, as the heigth is assumed). 
> 
> This has been discussed before, but I still don't really understand it.
> 
> I assume they take the data and solve what they can.  The answer will be a 
> line in X,Y, Z and T.  Do they just pick the point on Z=0?  How much timing 
> error does that turn into?

OK, X, Y and Z is not arbitrary axes, they have origo at the earth mass 
center, X sticks out through 0 E 0 N (0 meridian at equator), Y sticks 
out through 90 E 0 N and Z sticks out through the north pole. T is in 
GPS time (GPS week, Z-count, data bit in frame, C/A cycle in bit, C/A 
phase and carrier phase). The sats position in X_i, Y_i, Z_i and T_i is 
also known in this coordinate system as transmitted and calculated.

The actual pseudo-range to sat i is
p_i = sqrt((X-X_i)^2 + (Y-Y_i)^2 + (Z-Z_i)^2))

but this pseudo-range is skewed by c(T-T_i) where c is the speed of 
light. Additional time-skew components is found from ionosphere and 
troposphere among others.

The receivers time T needs to be in the neighborhood of correct, but as 
soon as the first sat is being tracked, just taking the time of that sat 
brings it within 100 ms at all times and the first 4-sat solution will 
remove the major part of that.

> That is, if I move up 100 meters along that line, how much does T change?

Notice how the above equations is per sat, but speed of light is the 
conversion factor you need and it is "line of sigth" (not entierly true 
as the signal goes through dispersive athmosphere) to each sat which 
decides the time-skew.

> I assume the answer is "not much", but I don't have a good feel for the 
> numbers.  Is it lost in the other sources of noise?  Or at least not big 
> relative to them?

1 ns is 30 cm. 10 ns is 3 m. 100 ns is 30 m. 333 ns is 100 m. However, 
your errors goes in different directions depending on sat, so this is 
why a good constellation helps to accuratly correct errors in all 
directions.

> At 1ft per ns, 100 meters is 300 ns.  But lots of places on Earth are much 
> higher elevation than 100 meters.  (I just used 100 meters as an example.)  
> But that's the number for a satellite directly overhead.  The geometry fudges 
> things.  If the satellites are low, the change in time will be close to zero.
> 
> What's the average angle of a satellite?  (or ones used in a GPS solution 
> when you can only get 3 of them?)

One rarely speaks of average angle, and it is highly dependent on 
position on earth, so it is kind of not interesting.

> There is another layer of fudging involved in the how-many-satellites 
> discussion.  Sometimes the geometry is degenerate.  If the satellites are in 
> (or close) to a line, you don't get a position offset to the side of the 
> projection of that line on the surface of the Earth.

You can rule out those which gives too high deviation in T for the 
approximated X, Y, Z and T and cancel those contributions out before 
making another calculation.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jason at extremeoverclocking.com  Fri May 15 14:04:45 2009
From: jason at extremeoverclocking.com (Jason Rabel)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:04:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Brandywine GPS-4
Message-ID: <6021DC39D8C64550A439CD26BCC490BB@Inspiron>

Jeroen,

I have v2.1 & v2.2 of the PDF Manual. No real differences that I can see, just a couple non-necessary pages.

The only other bit of info I have that might be of some use, I saved the startup text a while back, it should look something like
this:

L=load ESC=RUN.....
Initialise - Clear RAM 
Initialise DUART 
TFS Ltd C Wed Aug 15 2001 10:18
support at timefreq.com
Testing IC19 RAM.......PASSED
DEFAULTS->RAM
Testing ROM/FLASH......PASSED  Cksum =  01FA
Testing Indicators........
Osc is BRANDYWINE XTAL1...Calibration Found 
Initialise PLL...PLL Initialised Slope Positive
TC1=IRIG   TC2=as TC1 
TimCod msg: $PRCCG,E,1,1,2,3*2D
Offset msg: $PRCCG,O,U,+00:00*62
Alarm Masks
 1234 5678
 0000 0001 
Set Timers
Run GPS4 EGPS17



From jason at extremeoverclocking.com  Fri May 15 14:08:55 2009
From: jason at extremeoverclocking.com (Jason Rabel)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:08:55 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
Message-ID: <EE449461AA2A467CB1547B672918AB19@Inspiron>

Dave,

Fedora will be fine as a basic network time server. If NTP isn't already installed on the system, all you have to do is type (as
root):

yum install ntp

The default config usually queries the NTP Pool. Depending on where you live you might want to edit the file to use only your
country's NTP Pool servers, or even some local servers that you know of.

You can then set your windows machines on your network to query your fedora machine for time. If they can't connect then the
firewall is probably blocking UDP/123.


Jason




From fortime at bellsouth.net  Fri May 15 14:16:58 2009
From: fortime at bellsouth.net (phil)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:16:58 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk><20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com><4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "M. Warner Losh" <imp at bsdimp.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>; <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers


> In message: <4A0D0FA0.3020706 at tiscali.co.uk>
>            Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk> writes:
> : M. Warner Losh wrote:
> :
> : > I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
> :
> : Thanks for the suggestions to use something else, but not an option.
> :
> : Like I say, I *have* fedora, I'm not planning to uninstall it as it was
> : installed for me and I don't want the hassle.  HI
>
> Then just install ntpd and be done with it.
>
> If you want sub-microsecond sync to a PPS, you'll be disappointed.  If
> you want about 10ms over a LAN, then you'll be happy.
>
> Warner

You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just timing, 
It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy to 
install. I have 30 some servers and switching all to FreeBSD.

Phil




From dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk  Fri May 15 14:24:34 2009
From: dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk (Dave Ackrill)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:24:34 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>	<20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>	<4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <4A0D7B22.5000109@tiscali.co.uk>

M. Warner Losh wrote:

> Then just install ntpd and be done with it.
> 
> If you want sub-microsecond sync to a PPS, you'll be disappointed.  If
> you want about 10ms over a LAN, then you'll be happy.

10ms over the LAN will be more than enough for my use.

Although I do have a Trimble Thunderbolt, that I plan to use as a 10MHz 
reference for a 10GHz transceiver, but I might get the Palisade going, 
if I ever do find the pins that fit the socket, and use that as the 
source of the time standard.

Dave (G0DJA)


From folkert at vanheusden.com  Fri May 15 14:26:00 2009
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:26:00 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
References: <20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
Message-ID: <20090515142600.GG2435@vanheusden.com>

> You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just 
> timing, It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy 

much faster in what respect? tested how?


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
www.vanheusden.com/multitail - multitail is tail on steroids. multiple
               windows, filtering, coloring, anything you can think of
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com


From sar10538 at gmail.com  Fri May 15 14:26:08 2009
From: sar10538 at gmail.com (Steve Rooke)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 02:26:08 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090514.152456.-545559436.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<4A0D0FA0.3020706@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
Message-ID: <1231b6a80905150726n7dbc9b2t643f19549aa401d2@mail.gmail.com>

2009/5/16 phil <fortime at bellsouth.net>

>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "M. Warner Losh" <imp at bsdimp.com>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>; <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk>
> Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 3:02 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
>
>
>  In message: <4A0D0FA0.3020706 at tiscali.co.uk>
>>           Dave Ackrill <dave.g0dja at tiscali.co.uk> writes:
>> : M. Warner Losh wrote:
>> :
>> : > I'd try the FreeBSD distribution of Linux.
>> :
>> : Thanks for the suggestions to use something else, but not an option.
>> :
>> : Like I say, I *have* fedora, I'm not planning to uninstall it as it was
>> : installed for me and I don't want the hassle.  HI
>>
>> Then just install ntpd and be done with it.
>>
>> If you want sub-microsecond sync to a PPS, you'll be disappointed.  If
>> you want about 10ms over a LAN, then you'll be happy.
>>
>> Warner
>>
>
> You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just timing,
> It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy to
> install. I have 30 some servers and switching all to FreeBSD.


For servers, possibly, but he may be running a workstation.

73,
Steve

-- 
Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV & G8KVD & JAKDTTNW
A man with one clock knows what time it is;
A man with two clocks is never quite sure.

From folkert at vanheusden.com  Fri May 15 14:29:57 2009
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:29:57 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
Message-ID: <20090515142956.GH2435@vanheusden.com>

> Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?

Make sure you have a recent kernel installed with the PPS patch applied:

     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*127.127.20.1    .GPS.            0 l    5   16  377    0.000   -0.014   0.006

That system is only up for 1 day so the offset (and jitter) will get better later on.
Typically the offset outputted by ntpq is around 0.001 and the jitter 0.000.
This is with a Garmin 18LVC.
http://wiki.enneenne.com/index.php/LinuxPPS_support

I also have a DCF77 receiver connected to a system:
     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*127.127.8.0     .DCFa.           0 l   14   64  377    0.000   -2.193   7.711

and an MSF receiver (using my http://vanheusden.com/lpc-ntpd/lindy_precision_clock.php driver),
it is a lindy precision clock connected via USB:
     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
x127.127.28.0    .SHM0.           2 l   58   64    7    0.000   11.120   6.601


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
To MultiTail einai ena polymorfiko ergaleio gia ta logfiles kai tin
eksodo twn entolwn. Prosferei: filtrarisma, xrwmatismo, sygxwneysi,
diaforetikes provoles. http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com


From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 15 15:14:58 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:14:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515142600.GG2435@vanheusden.com>
References: <20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
	<20090515142600.GG2435@vanheusden.com>
Message-ID: <20090515.091458.332277744.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090515142600.GG2435 at vanheusden.com>
            Folkert van Heusden <folkert at vanheusden.com> writes:
: > You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just 
: > timing, It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy 
: 
: much faster in what respect? tested how?

The usual benchmark that's cited here is the mysql tps scaling better
than Linux.  See for example
http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/mysql.html.  The numbers in
this "paper" are a little dated (being for 7.0 and a little over a
year old), they show good scaling.  Of course, this isn't the place to
debate that in extreme detail (for example, there are other pages I
can't find right now that show newer versions of Linux, some better,
some worse as changes to the scheduler help or hurt performance).  It
is no longer the case that you can automatically assume Linux performs
better.  You have to measure things and make sure you use the system
that best matches your performance requirements.

Also, on a 7.1R system, you need to make sure that you enable tagged
queueing.  A last minute change botched it.  7.2R is out now too.

Warner


From folkert at vanheusden.com  Fri May 15 15:26:10 2009
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 17:26:10 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515.091458.332277744.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <20090515.010205.2069467071.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<69950C9903A74B9CB2F08C7F5D4F0A1B@devoffice>
	<20090515142600.GG2435@vanheusden.com>
	<20090515.091458.332277744.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com>

> : > You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just 
> : > timing, It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy 
> : 
> : much faster in what respect? tested how?
> 
> The usual benchmark that's cited here is the mysql tps scaling better
> than Linux.  See for example
> http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/mysql.html.  The numbers in
> this "paper" are a little dated (being for 7.0 and a little over a
> year old), they show good scaling.  Of course, this isn't the place to
> debate that in extreme detail (for example, there are other pages I
> can't find right now that show newer versions of Linux, some better,
> some worse as changes to the scheduler help or hurt performance).  It
> is no longer the case that you can automatically assume Linux performs
> better.  You have to measure things and make sure you use the system
> that best matches your performance requirements.
> Also, on a 7.1R system, you need to make sure that you enable tagged
> queueing.  A last minute change botched it.  7.2R is out now too.

You can't say that freebsd is faster than linux; you specifically need
to specify what version of freebsd and what version of linux you're
using. Also the hardware platform matters as well as the compiler (and
version) used to compile mysql and numerous other parameters.

What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
Feeling generous? -> http://www.vanheusden.com/wishlist.php
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com


From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 15 15:54:06 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 09:54:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com>
References: <20090515142600.GG2435@vanheusden.com>
	<20090515.091458.332277744.imp@bsdimp.com>
	<20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com>
Message-ID: <20090515.095406.-1739011364.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090515152610.GI2435 at vanheusden.com>
            Folkert van Heusden <folkert at vanheusden.com> writes:
: > : > You might consider switching to FreeBSD for more reasons than just 
: > : > timing, It's much faster than Fedora and I found the new 7.1 version easy 
: > : 
: > : much faster in what respect? tested how?
: > 
: > The usual benchmark that's cited here is the mysql tps scaling better
: > than Linux.  See for example
: > http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/mysql.html.  The numbers in
: > this "paper" are a little dated (being for 7.0 and a little over a
: > year old), they show good scaling.  Of course, this isn't the place to
: > debate that in extreme detail (for example, there are other pages I
: > can't find right now that show newer versions of Linux, some better,
: > some worse as changes to the scheduler help or hurt performance).  It
: > is no longer the case that you can automatically assume Linux performs
: > better.  You have to measure things and make sure you use the system
: > that best matches your performance requirements.
: > Also, on a 7.1R system, you need to make sure that you enable tagged
: > queueing.  A last minute change botched it.  7.2R is out now too.
: 
: You can't say that freebsd is faster than linux; you specifically need
: to specify what version of freebsd and what version of linux you're
: using. Also the hardware platform matters as well as the compiler (and
: version) used to compile mysql and numerous other parameters.

I didn't say FreeBSD was faster than Linux.  Please read what I said
carefully (note, the quotes stuff at the top isn't me).  I said for
some work loads, it is faster.

: What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
: patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
: ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.

Yes.  All my evaluations of Linux pre-date this patch.  However, even
with the patch, I can still say that Linux performs worse than FreeBSD
on NTP because the patch hasn't been committed to the kernel.org tree.
I guess this is the difference between "Linux can be made to perform
better with this out-of-tree patch" and "Out of the box, Linux
performs well."

When FreeBSD switched from gcc 3.x to gcc 4.x, I did measurements of
the ability of the kernel to track a PPS (also changes with the major
revision of the kernel).  I found that there was no measurable
difference between the different FreeBSD kernels I tested despite
being built with a number of different compilers (3.4.5, 4.2.0 and
4.1).  It turns out that the algorithms for steering the time aren't
dependent on how fast the results are computed, but rather dependent
on the results being computed correctly.  I will admit that my testing
of Linux was been rather cursory over the years compared to the
attention I've given to FreeBSD.

Of course, we're mixing up problems a little bit here.  The ntpd with
pps performance issue is somewhat different than the claims another
writer was making about FreeBSD being faster for his servers...

Warner


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 15 15:58:37 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:58:37 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 15 May 2009 17:26:10 +0200."
	<20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com> 
Message-ID: <70723.1242403117@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090515152610.GI2435 at vanheusden.com>, Folkert van Heusden writes:

>What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
>patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
>ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.

I think first of all, it would be interesting what your quality
parameters are...

Prescision ?

Resolution ?

Reliability ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 15 16:02:54 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:02:54 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 15 May 2009 09:54:06 CST."
	<20090515.095406.-1739011364.imp@bsdimp.com> 
Message-ID: <70777.1242403374@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090515.095406.-1739011364.imp at bsdimp.com>, "M. Warner Losh" write
s:

>When FreeBSD switched from gcc 3.x to gcc 4.x, I did measurements of
>the ability of the kernel to track a PPS (also changes with the major
>revision of the kernel).  I found that there was no measurable
>difference between the different FreeBSD kernels I tested despite
>being built with a number of different compilers (3.4.5, 4.2.0 and
>4.1).  It turns out that the algorithms for steering the time aren't
>dependent on how fast the results are computed, but rather dependent
>on the results being computed correctly.  [...]

... which you can read more about in my paper from 2002:

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/pubs/timecounter.pdf

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From folkert at vanheusden.com  Fri May 15 16:15:39 2009
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:15:39 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <70723.1242403117@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com>
	<70723.1242403117@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20090515161538.GK2435@vanheusden.com>

> >What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
> >patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
> >ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.
> 
> I think first of all, it would be interesting what your quality
> parameters are...
> 
> Prescision ?
> Resolution ?
> Reliability ?

Reliability is, I think, for me the most important. E.g. that it doesn't
jitter all over the place and that the jitter is also as constant as
possible.


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
MultiTail na wan makriki wrokosani fu tan luku den logfile nanga san
den commando spiti puru. Piki puru spesrutu sani, wroko nanga difrenti
kroru, tya kon makandra, nanga wan lo moro.
http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 15 16:22:10 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 16:22:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 15 May 2009 18:15:39 +0200."
	<20090515161538.GK2435@vanheusden.com> 
Message-ID: <70853.1242404530@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090515161538.GK2435 at vanheusden.com>, Folkert van Heusden writes:
>> >What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
>> >patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
>> >ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.
>> 
>> I think first of all, it would be interesting what your quality
>> parameters are...
>> 
>> Prescision ?
>> Resolution ?
>> Reliability ?
>
>Reliability is, I think, for me the most important. E.g. that it doesn't
>jitter all over the place and that the jitter is also as constant as
>possible.

That is not reliability, that is precision.

Reliability means that it keeps answering.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From bg at lysator.liu.se  Fri May 15 21:13:36 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:13:36 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515142956.GH2435@vanheusden.com>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090515142956.GH2435@vanheusden.com>
Message-ID: <50525.87.227.52.225.1242422016.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

>> Anyone got any good Linux time systems for PCs ?
>
> Make sure you have a recent kernel installed with the PPS patch applied:
>
>      remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset
> jitter
> ==============================================================================
> *127.127.20.1    .GPS.            0 l    5   16  377    0.000   -0.014
> 0.006
>
> That system is only up for 1 day so the offset (and jitter) will get
> better later on.
> Typically the offset outputted by ntpq is around 0.001 and the jitter
> 0.000.
> This is with a Garmin 18LVC.

The _sore_ thing is that with 2.4.x-nano kernels offsets/jitter got that
good within minutes. Now many years later it takes days... :-(

--

   Bj?rn



From bg at lysator.liu.se  Fri May 15 21:24:25 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:24:25 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515161538.GK2435@vanheusden.com>
References: <20090515152610.GI2435@vanheusden.com>
	<70723.1242403117@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<20090515161538.GK2435@vanheusden.com>
Message-ID: <50544.87.227.52.225.1242422665.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

>> >What would be interesting is how a specific linux-kernel with the pps
>> >patches by rodolpho compare to a specific freebsd version with the same
>> >ntpd compiled using the same gcc and such.
>>
>> I think first of all, it would be interesting what your quality
>> parameters are...
>>
>> Prescision ?
>> Resolution ?
>> Reliability ?
>
> Reliability is, I think, for me the most important. E.g. that it doesn't
> jitter all over the place and that the jitter is also as constant as
> possible.
>
>
> Folkert van Heusden

For my daytime use of ntp, convergence in less than 5 minutes is
essential. Due to some unusual peripherials, that often have drivers
dictating a certain kernel version its is often impossible to find a linux
kernel version that support both the proprietary drivers and decent
ntp-server performance.

--

   Bj?rn



From bg at lysator.liu.se  Fri May 15 21:35:39 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:35:39 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] 1PPS accuracy of commercial GPS receivers
In-Reply-To: <E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2@athlon>
References: <E660D55B75514E29A5735AF7DCB484B2@athlon>
Message-ID: <50553.87.227.52.225.1242423339.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

Hi Ulrich,

> mind. On the other hand: If a good timing receiver has ended his "site
> survey" it's position messages stay constant, even if you move it around.
> Obviously that is not what you expect from a navigation system. Keep
> navigation and timing receivers clear apart from each other. They are as
> different as horse and zebra.

We had this discussion a few years ago here!

You are still wrong. The best timing receivers available are the geodetic
quality receivers that have an external frequency input. Sometimes they
are slightly modified versions of the standard geodetic receivers, but
they remain top class navigation receivers never-the-less.

Tell me a modern receiver used by a national time-lab for time-transfer to
other labs that is a bad navigation receiver!

--

   Bj?rn



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri May 15 21:44:31 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 14:44:31 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: Message from bg@lysator.liu.se of "Fri,
	15 May 2009 23:13:36 +0200."
	<50525.87.227.52.225.1242422016.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
Message-ID: <20090515214432.84954BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> The _sore_ thing is that with 2.4.x-nano kernels offsets/jitter got
> that good within minutes. Now many years later it takes days... :-( 

I think that's a bug introduced by the tickless scheduler  work.


> For my daytime use of ntp, convergence in less than 5 minutes is
> essential. Due to some unusual peripherials, that often have drivers
> dictating a certain kernel version its is often impossible to find a
> linux kernel version that support both the proprietary drivers and
> decent ntp-server performance. 

Do you build your own kernels?

It looks like there is a simple change that fixes the convergence.
  http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/5/4/373

There is also the TSC calibration mess.  If you are only running on one 
machine, or one type of system, you can patch the kernel to use a hard-coded 
answer.

Or you can try one of the non-TSC clock sources.





-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From bg at lysator.liu.se  Fri May 15 21:54:45 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 23:54:45 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Linux time servers
In-Reply-To: <20090515214432.84954BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090515214432.84954BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <50726.87.227.52.225.1242424485.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

>
>> The _sore_ thing is that with 2.4.x-nano kernels offsets/jitter got
>> that good within minutes. Now many years later it takes days... :-(
>
> I think that's a bug introduced by the tickless scheduler  work.
>
>
>> For my daytime use of ntp, convergence in less than 5 minutes is
>> essential. Due to some unusual peripherials, that often have drivers
>> dictating a certain kernel version its is often impossible to find a
>> linux kernel version that support both the proprietary drivers and
>> decent ntp-server performance.
>
> Do you build your own kernels?
>
> It looks like there is a simple change that fixes the convergence.
>   http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/5/4/373
>
> There is also the TSC calibration mess.  If you are only running on one
> machine, or one type of system, you can patch the kernel to use a
> hard-coded
> answer.
>
> Or you can try one of the non-TSC clock sources.

Thanks! That might be good news after a looong dark night.

--

   Bj?rn



From bob.paddock at gmail.com  Sat May 16 11:11:11 2009
From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 07:11:11 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
Message-ID: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not out to start any kind of OS war here, I'm simply curious
as to alternatives.

On Fri, May 15, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> ... which you can read more about in my paper from 2002:
>
>        http://phk.freebsd.dk/pubs/timecounter.pdf

Anyone know how NetBSD stands in regard to time services?
http://www.netbsd.org/

Anyone ever look at Minix-III (Minix-I was the progenitor to Linux)?
Seems like it would be easy to make a decent time server, on
embedded hardware with it.  Past iterations of the Minix-III website
gave a "watch" as an example small embedded system it was meant to power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MINIX_3
http://www.minix3.org/



-- 
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
http://www.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.unusualresearch.com/


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 16 13:21:50 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 09:21:50 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com>

Bob Paddock wrote:

> Anyone ever look at Minix-III (Minix-I was the progenitor to Linux)?
> Seems like it would be easy to make a decent time server, on
> embedded hardware with it.  Past iterations of the Minix-III website
> gave a "watch" as an example small embedded system it was meant to power.

Why do you think Minix-III would be a good candidate for a time server?

A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.

-Chuck Harris


From bob.paddock at gmail.com  Sat May 16 14:31:18 2009
From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 10:31:18 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com>
References: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com>
Message-ID: <bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
> Bob Paddock wrote:
>
>> Anyone ever look at Minix-III (Minix-I was the progenitor to Linux)?
>> Seems like it would be easy to make a decent time server, on
>> embedded hardware with it. ?Past iterations of the Minix-III website
>> gave a "watch" as an example small embedded system it was meant to
>> power.

> Why do you think Minix-III would be a good candidate for a time server?

Minix-III is based on the microkernel approach of keeping things small and fast.
Take a look at the web site.  http://www.minix3.org/

> A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.

True.  The challenge is putting the OS *in* the Watch,
as the Embedded System that runs it.


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 16 15:04:42 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 11:04:42 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>	<4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com>
	<bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A0ED60A.3020107@erols.com>

Bob Paddock wrote:
> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
>> Bob Paddock wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone ever look at Minix-III (Minix-I was the progenitor to Linux)?
>>> Seems like it would be easy to make a decent time server, on
>>> embedded hardware with it.  Past iterations of the Minix-III website
>>> gave a "watch" as an example small embedded system it was meant to
>>> power.
> 
>> Why do you think Minix-III would be a good candidate for a time server?
> 
> Minix-III is based on the microkernel approach of keeping things small and fast.
> Take a look at the web site.  http://www.minix3.org/

I spent an extensive amount of time writing system features for
Minix, back in the day, and even though it was a microkernel,
it was anything but fast.

The good thing about microkernels is they have a very small section
of "trusted" code in the kernel.  Everything else is in user space.
This has nothing to do with speed; it has to do with where the work
gets done.  Ultimately the work has to be done, and that is what causes
bloat and slow operation.  In microkernel systems, the kernel operates
as a task starter, arbiter, allocator of system resources and messaging
system.  Everything is done by passing messages.  The problem with the
microkernel system is your messaging system has to copy tons of data
to do even trivial things.  Another problem is the kernel has to read
the message, interpret what the message means, and check it for validity
before it can do the bidding of the user level task.

In academia, everyone talks of microkernel systems as being the
wave of the future, but in the real world, things end up more in
the monolithic kernel model... linux and BSD are both monolithic
kernels.

>> A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.
> 
> True.  The challenge is putting the OS *in* the Watch,
> as the Embedded System that runs it.

Nobody with any sense would even try.

A watch is such a closed system that it is easy to verify all
parts of it, and there is no need for the frills an OS
provides.

-Chuck Harris


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 16 15:09:07 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 15:09:07 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 May 2009 09:21:50 -0400."
	<4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com> 
Message-ID: <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <4A0EBDEE.2020703 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:

>A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.

Well, no.

But figuring out correct handling of time is a challenge for operating
system programmers.

I have no idea how the timing code is in minix3, but I do know
how much time it took me and subsequently Warner to get it right
and good in FreeBSD.

I'll still claim that FreeBSD is a generation ahead of all other
operating systems with respect to timekeeping, if for no other
reason, because FreeBSD is the only OS that truly splits the
nanosecond.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Sat May 16 15:28:44 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:28:44 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Help needed: Jupiter-T TU60-D120
In-Reply-To: <17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
References: <4A06A117.8050909@swipnet.se>
	<17423.206.174.20.67.1242062610.squirrel@mymail.acsalaska.net>
Message-ID: <F5506A4E2812451B923E0D6B9A9176E8@LapTop>

Lasse & Richard
Further to your discussions regarding interfacing the Jupiter TU60-D120. 
There would seem to be a number of varieties of these units which one would 
expect to find some common interface connections and software control, but I 
gather this is not the case.
I am currently trying to set up two varieties, one is the TU30-D200 and the 
other is the TU30-D145, the latter being the simpler "Tracker" type. Can 
anybody confirm the connection field for each of these types as they do not 
seem to correspond to some printed/down-loaded data that I have ?
I would appreciate any information on these two units.
Roy

Message ----- 
From: "Richard H McCorkle" <mccorkle at ptialaska.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 6:23 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help needed: Jupiter-T TU60-D120


> Lasse,
>
> If you are getting a Message ID 1180 at power-on you are in Navman bin
> mode and the EEPROM power-on default has been set to this mode. You need
> to send Message ID 1331 using LabMon to set it back to Motorola protocol
> before TAC32 can talk to it.
>
> Richard
>
>
>> I got a Jupiter-T TU60 off eBay and my intentions are (was) to get a
>> diciplined oscillator running.
>> Somehow I expected it to be pretty similar (command wise) to a TU-30
>> wich is up and running here, but must have missed the information that
>> it starts in Motorola Bin??
>>
>> My TU60 will just say "ff 81 9c 04 01 00 00 00 64 79 00 00 00 00"  at
>> power-up (Message ID 1180) once, then nothing.
>> After installing TAC32 (demo) yesterday I managed (don't ask me how) get
>> the uint running, everything looked OK,  I then wanted to put it inot
>> Navman Bin mode. This should be safe as according to datasheet as it
>> will revert to Motorola commands when cycling the power. After trying
>> @@Wb, but nothing from Labmon/WinLabmon, and  now TAC32 cannot get in
>> contact with the GPS,
>> I let the GPS be off power over night but it sill refuses to connect to
>> TAC32.
>>
>> Have I put my Jupiter in a mode that I cannot revert? It still reports
>> the MessageID 1180 at power-on.
>> Or was I just plain lucky once to somhow fool TAC32 to get the Jupiter
>> to run?
>>
>> Any hints or comments are most welcome!
>>
>> /Lasse
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From imp at bsdimp.com  Sat May 16 18:25:29 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 12:25:29 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com>
	<bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20090516.122529.-586245722.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <bf689bbe0905160731he199751t1b9212a526ea2346 at mail.gmail.com>
            Bob Paddock <bob.paddock at gmail.com> writes:
: On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
: > Bob Paddock wrote:
: >
: >> Anyone ever look at Minix-III (Minix-I was the progenitor to Linux)?
: >> Seems like it would be easy to make a decent time server, on
: >> embedded hardware with it. ?Past iterations of the Minix-III website
: >> gave a "watch" as an example small embedded system it was meant to
: >> power.
: 
: > Why do you think Minix-III would be a good candidate for a time server?
: 
: Minix-III is based on the microkernel approach of keeping things small and fast.
: Take a look at the web site.  http://www.minix3.org/

Right.  But microkernels add latency to the dispatching of events.
And the latency tends to be variable in a typical microkernel.
Variable latency degrades performance.  I've not measured minix3, so I
don't know if it suffers from this problem or not.  Even in a
monolithic kernel you have issues with as well, since interrupts can
be masked from time to time...

Warner


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 16 20:43:45 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 16:43:45 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A0F2581.7000303@erols.com>

Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <4A0EBDEE.2020703 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:
> 
>> A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.
> 
> Well, no.
> 
> But figuring out correct handling of time is a challenge for operating
> system programmers.

Very true...

> I have no idea how the timing code is in minix3, but I do know
> how much time it took me and subsequently Warner to get it right
> and good in FreeBSD.

Given that minix was written by a CS professor who has no apparent
experience with real time operations, and has never been heard from
on timenuts, I would guess it will be primitive.

> I'll still claim that FreeBSD is a generation ahead of all other
> operating systems with respect to timekeeping, if for no other
> reason, because FreeBSD is the only OS that truly splits the
> nanosecond.

I don't believe that will be happening in a message passing microkernel
(like minix) anytime soon... unless you build all of the timekeeping
software into the kernel, and then you are in the process of becoming
a monolithic kernel ;-)

-Chuck Harris


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sat May 16 21:04:12 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:04:12 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <4A0ED60A.3020107@erols.com>
Message-ID: <C634785C.7CFF%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/16/09 8:04 AM, "Chuck Harris" <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> Bob Paddock wrote:
>> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 9:21 AM, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
>
>> 
>>> Why do you think Minix-III would be a good candidate for a time server?
>> 
>> Minix-III is based on the microkernel approach of keeping things small and
>> fast.
>> Take a look at the web site.  http://www.minix3.org/
> 
> I spent an extensive amount of time writing system features for
> Minix, back in the day, and even though it was a microkernel,
> it was anything but fast.
> 
> The good thing about microkernels is they have a very small section
> of "trusted" code in the kernel.  Everything else is in user space.
> This has nothing to do with speed; it has to do with where the work
> gets done.  Ultimately the work has to be done, and that is what causes
> bloat and slow operation.  In microkernel systems, the kernel operates
> as a task starter, arbiter, allocator of system resources and messaging
> system.  Everything is done by passing messages.  The problem with the
> microkernel system is your messaging system has to copy tons of data
> to do even trivial things.  Another problem is the kernel has to read
> the message, interpret what the message means, and check it for validity
> before it can do the bidding of the user level task.
> 
> In academia, everyone talks of microkernel systems as being the
> wave of the future, but in the real world, things end up more in
> the monolithic kernel model... linux and BSD are both monolithic
> kernels.


I think there is more use of microkernels (eCos, RTEMS, Erlang, etc.) in the
embedded world. The environment is more constrained, so reducing the
footprint is useful.

> 



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sat May 16 21:06:15 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 14:06:15 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <4A0F2581.7000303@erols.com>
Message-ID: <C63478D7.7D01%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/16/09 1:43 PM, "Chuck Harris" <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> 
>> I have no idea how the timing code is in minix3, but I do know
>> how much time it took me and subsequently Warner to get it right
>> and good in FreeBSD.
> 
> Given that minix was written by a CS professor who has no apparent
> experience with real time operations, and has never been heard from
> on timenuts, I would guess it will be primitive.
> 
>> I'll still claim that FreeBSD is a generation ahead of all other
>> operating systems with respect to timekeeping, if for no other
>> reason, because FreeBSD is the only OS that truly splits the
>> nanosecond.
> 
> I don't believe that will be happening in a message passing microkernel
> (like minix) anytime soon... unless you build all of the timekeeping
> software into the kernel, and then you are in the process of becoming
> a monolithic kernel ;-)
> 

Or, do what I'm doing for a software radio that uses RTEMS, do the critical
timing stuff in hardware, and the software just manages the hardware.



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 16 21:06:54 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 21:06:54 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 May 2009 16:43:45 -0400."
	<4A0F2581.7000303@erols.com> 
Message-ID: <81643.1242508014@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <4A0F2581.7000303 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:

>I don't believe that will be happening in a message passing microkernel
>(like minix) anytime soon... unless you build all of the timekeeping
>software into the kernel, and then you are in the process of becoming
>a monolithic kernel ;-)

Well, this brings us into a philosophical area.


If a piece of code calls a function to figure out what time it is,
the tacit assumption is that the function takes zero time to execute
and returns the timestamp of the time where it didn't take any time.

In practice, the call will always occupy some duration of time, and
the timestamp returned represents some instant during that interval.

Depending on the function called, and the CPU hardware we execute
it on, the timestamp returned may have more or less jitter relative
to the call instruction and the first instrucation executed upon
return.

I call this jitter the "software-jitter" because it has nothing to
do with the time keeping hardware, it is jitter introduced because
we operate in software.

In addition to the software jitte, we have whatever jitter the
function runs into, trying to actually produce the timestamp: Bus
contentions, hardware locking, page faults etc. etc.

On the other side, if a piece of hardware yanks a signal line to
record a timestamp, we can reasonably expect the timestamp will
be the exact time of the signals reception +/-1 count on whatever
hardware counter is used to keep track of time.


These observations hold in general, even for the case where you
have no operating system of any kind.


If you look at this prism with your MACH-coloured glasses, what you
see is that the access to the timekeeping hardware counter is likely
to be restricted to one semi-priviledged process.  Otherwise,
why bother with microkernels in the first place ?

It follows that all software calls to get a timestamp consequently
becomes IPC calls.

And we have 30 years experience telling us, that IPC calls are
even more smeared out over time than direct calls and therefore
the software jitter becomes worse.

But other than that, and that is bad enough because of the scheduling
latency/jitter typically present, there are no ill effects from
running on a microkernel.

If you feed your PPS signal in and do hardware timestamps like we
FreeBSD's timecounters allows you to, for instance on the Soekris
net4501[1], then your basic clock can be precise, but your microkernel
will only allow your software to read fuzzy timestamps from it.

If you hook the PPS signal to an interrupt line, and timestamp it
in software, then your basic clock can never be precise, because
your PPS timestamps are fuzzed by the microkernel.

Poul-Henning

[1] This is why I say that FreeBSD is a generation ahead, I have
yet to see any other operating system support PPS-API on hardware
captured signals.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From bob.paddock at gmail.com  Sat May 16 21:24:28 2009
From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:24:28 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C634785C.7CFF%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <4A0ED60A.3020107@erols.com>
	<C634785C.7CFF%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <bf689bbe0905161424h39b4a0a5if85842dceefb88e1@mail.gmail.com>

> I think there is more use of microkernels (eCos, RTEMS, Erlang, etc.) in the
> embedded world. The environment is more constrained, so reducing the
> footprint is useful.

There is also the new ?C/OS-III (yes, three) that "provides near zero
interrupt disable time. ?C/OS-III has a number of internal data
structures and variables that it needs to access atomically. These
critical regions are protected by locking the scheduler instead of
disabling interrupts. Interrupts are disabled for almost zero clock
cycles, ensuring the RTOS will be able to respond to some of the
fastest interrupt sources."

In the day job I'm designing near pager size devices, heading down to
watch size devices.  Current project has a U-Blox GPS hooked up to a
AVR XMega Event System pin.  Any Time Nut suggestions on what to do
with it?  Has 120x32 bit LCD display,
and small speaker, also.


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 16 23:30:15 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:30:15 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C634785C.7CFF%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C634785C.7CFF%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A0F4C87.5050503@erols.com>

Lux, James P wrote:

> 
> I think there is more use of microkernels (eCos, RTEMS, Erlang, etc.) in the
> embedded world. The environment is more constrained, so reducing the
> footprint is useful.

That's just it, it doesn't reduce the footprint at all!

All it does is legislate that the kernel function be small,
and be the only "root" task.  Everything else is pushed out
into "user" land.

You do the work in the kernel, or you do the work outside of
the kernel, but you still have to do the work, and that takes
code.

-Chuck Harris


From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 16 23:32:50 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 19:32:50 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C63478D7.7D01%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C63478D7.7D01%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A0F4D22.6010905@erols.com>

Lux, James P wrote:

>> I don't believe that will be happening in a message passing microkernel
>> (like minix) anytime soon... unless you build all of the timekeeping
>> software into the kernel, and then you are in the process of becoming
>> a monolithic kernel ;-)
>>
> 
> Or, do what I'm doing for a software radio that uses RTEMS, do the critical
> timing stuff in hardware, and the software just manages the hardware.

That's fine, as long as the critical timing stuff never has to
pass into code space.  If it does, then you are stuck with the
OS's latency issues.

-Chuck Harris


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 17 00:32:34 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 17:32:34 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from Bob Paddock <bob.paddock@gmail.com> of "Sat,
	16 May 2009 07:11:11 EDT."
	<bf689bbe0905160411u18b43931i4b0835da9907fb1b@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20090517003235.C7594BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> Anyone know how NetBSD stands in regard to time services?


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 17 03:05:32 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:05:32 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <4A0F4C87.5050503@erols.com>
Message-ID: <C634CD0C.7D0E%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/16/09 4:30 PM, "Chuck Harris" <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> Lux, James P wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I think there is more use of microkernels (eCos, RTEMS, Erlang, etc.) in the
>> embedded world. The environment is more constrained, so reducing the
>> footprint is useful.
> 
> That's just it, it doesn't reduce the footprint at all!
> 
> All it does is legislate that the kernel function be small,
> and be the only "root" task.  Everything else is pushed out
> into "user" land.
> 
> You do the work in the kernel, or you do the work outside of
> the kernel, but you still have to do the work, and that takes
> code.

But lots of embedded applications don't need, e.g., a file system.
All they need is device drivers, a scheduler, and some sort of messaging
system. (e.g. Traditional kernel functions).



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 17 03:06:33 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:06:33 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <4A0F4D22.6010905@erols.com>
Message-ID: <C634CD49.7D0F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/16/09 4:32 PM, "Chuck Harris" <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> Lux, James P wrote:
> 
>>> I don't believe that will be happening in a message passing microkernel
>>> (like minix) anytime soon... unless you build all of the timekeeping
>>> software into the kernel, and then you are in the process of becoming
>>> a monolithic kernel ;-)
>>> 
>> 
>> Or, do what I'm doing for a software radio that uses RTEMS, do the critical
>> timing stuff in hardware, and the software just manages the hardware.
> 
> That's fine, as long as the critical timing stuff never has to
> pass into code space.  If it does, then you are stuck with the
> OS's latency issues.
>
That's the whole design requirement.. Thou shalt not touch the data with
software.



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 17 03:15:23 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 20:15:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> of "Sat,
	16 May 2009 21:06:54 -0000." <81643.1242508014@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20090517031525.292E7BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> [1] This is why I say that FreeBSD is a generation ahead, I have yet
> to see any other operating system support PPS-API on hardware captured
> signals. 

This is one of the reasons why I was looking for a low-cost FPGA on PCI board 
with some way to get a couple of external inputs.

You could easily put the Unix format clock into the FPGA and map it (read 
only?) into user space.  Then you just read the time.  No kernel call.

Adding PPS support would be simple.  :)




Things get interesting if your hardware splits a 64 bit read into 2 32 bit 
transfers.  Many years ago, all Intel chips did that.  I don't know about 
today.

The usual fix is to do 3 reads: high, low, high, compare the highs, and try 
again if they are different.  If they differ, the clock overflowed from the 
bottom word while you were reading it and you don't know which one matches 
the low bits.

You can play other games, for example latch the high bits when the low bits 
are read.  Then you have to ask what happens if 2 processs/threads read at 
the same time.  You can assign a separate address for each thread/process, 
but that's probably more complicated than it's worth.  You could read it from 
the kernel...



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From cfharris at erols.com  Sun May 17 04:19:39 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 00:19:39 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C634CD0C.7D0E%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C634CD0C.7D0E%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A0F905B.6010900@erols.com>

Lux, James P wrote:

>> You do the work in the kernel, or you do the work outside of
>> the kernel, but you still have to do the work, and that takes
>> code.
> 
> But lots of embedded applications don't need, e.g., a file system.
> All they need is device drivers, a scheduler, and some sort of messaging
> system. (e.g. Traditional kernel functions).

Traditional monolithic kernel operating systems can be
built to include as much, or as little of these traditional
kernel functions as you want.

Size is not a factor in making the decision over whether
you want/need a message passing microkernel, or a monolithic
kernel.

-Chuck Harris


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun May 17 05:00:06 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 05:00:06 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 16 May 2009 20:15:23 MST."
	<20090517031525.292E7BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> 
Message-ID: <83275.1242536406@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090517031525.292E7BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murr
ay writes:

>This is one of the reasons why I was looking for a low-cost FPGA on PCI board 
>with some way to get a couple of external inputs.
>
>Things get interesting if your hardware splits a 64 bit read into 2 32 bit 
>transfers.  Many years ago, all Intel chips did that.  I don't know about 
>today.

You don't need a 64bit counter in the first place.

You are going to have a thread around anyway, which adjusts your clock based
on the NTP PLL's output, that thread can maintain your "reference time"
so that a 32 bit counter will never overflow.

Which, I might add, is _exactly_ how FreeBSD does it :-)

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 17 14:19:50 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 07:19:50 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <83275.1242536406@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <C6356B16.7D19%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/16/09 10:00 PM, "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> In message <20090517031525.292E7BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal
> Murr
> ay writes:
> 
>> This is one of the reasons why I was looking for a low-cost FPGA on PCI board
>> with some way to get a couple of external inputs.
>> 
>> Things get interesting if your hardware splits a 64 bit read into 2 32 bit
>> transfers.  Many years ago, all Intel chips did that.  I don't know about
>> today.
> 
> You don't need a 64bit counter in the first place.

You might want a 64 bit counter, if you want to keep time across processor
resets.

In which case, if you're saddled with 32 bit (or 8 bit!) reads, you have to
do multiple reads, so that by the end of the process, you can assure
yourself it's consistent.

E.g read high, read low, read high, read low
So you can check low #1 against low #2, and figure out if you had a roll
over.




From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 17 16:24:02 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:24:02 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux@jpl.nasa.gov> of "Sun,
	17 May 2009 07:19:50 PDT." <C6356B16.7D19%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov> 
Message-ID: <20090517162403.D0554BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> In which case, if you're saddled with 32 bit (or 8 bit!) reads, you
> have to do multiple reads, so that by the end of the process, you can
> assure yourself it's consistent.

> E.g read high, read low, read high, read low So you can check low #1
> against low #2, and figure out if you had a roll over. 

Why read the low twice?

I though the normal recipe was to read high, low, high.  If the two highs are 
the same you know a carry didn't happen so a high/low pair is a valid reading.

-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 17 16:30:00 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:30:00 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090517162403.D0554BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <C6358998.7D1D%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/17/09 9:24 AM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

> 
> 
>> In which case, if you're saddled with 32 bit (or 8 bit!) reads, you
>> have to do multiple reads, so that by the end of the process, you can
>> assure yourself it's consistent.
> 
>> E.g read high, read low, read high, read low So you can check low #1
>> against low #2, and figure out if you had a roll over.
> 
> Why read the low twice?
> 
> I though the normal recipe was to read high, low, high.  If the two highs are
> the same you know a carry didn't happen so a high/low pair is a valid reading.

Yes, but then, if it did happen, then you need to read low again. If you do
the 4 reads as a block (say, with interrupts disabled), then you get a nice
deterministic timing for the code.  In practice, it's just a design decision
which way one does it.





From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 17 16:38:24 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:38:24 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C6358998.7D1D%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C6358998.7D1D%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <4A103D80.9010508@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Lux, James P skrev:
> 
> 
> On 5/17/09 9:24 AM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
>>
>>> In which case, if you're saddled with 32 bit (or 8 bit!) reads, you
>>> have to do multiple reads, so that by the end of the process, you can
>>> assure yourself it's consistent.
>>> E.g read high, read low, read high, read low So you can check low #1
>>> against low #2, and figure out if you had a roll over.
>> Why read the low twice?
>>
>> I though the normal recipe was to read high, low, high.  If the two highs are
>> the same you know a carry didn't happen so a high/low pair is a valid reading.
> 
> Yes, but then, if it did happen, then you need to read low again. If you do
> the 4 reads as a block (say, with interrupts disabled), then you get a nice
> deterministic timing for the code.  In practice, it's just a design decision
> which way one does it.

No, if the high parts differs, then the MSB of the lower part indicates 
which of the higher parts to go with it, MSB low is the late high read 
and MSB high is the early high read. Infact, by always look at the MSB 
then it will always be correct. With a second lower read will the low 
read point in time be modulated and hence jitter is added.

Cheers,
Magnus


From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Sun May 17 16:42:54 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:42:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C6356B16.7D19%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C6356B16.7D19%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <684742.88958.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Why not add a hardware latch with a fixed delay to read. That is the delay controls the latch function after the counter is static as well as the interrupt. Then reset the latch buffer on the last read. We have a fixed hardware delay plus a software delay to allow for but eliminate some of the variability. And?reduce?the failed read due to software delay. Now a second interrupt / read will indicate delays greater than the tick rate if our OS has interrupts that are?off greater than the tick rate minus the delay of the latch. Our choice would be to slow the tick rate or reduce the interrupts off blind time if we have many failed reads where the tick is more than one.?The idea would be to reduce the error to a rare event. This problem is like the meta stable problem discussed here before so perhaps the fixes are the same.

Stanley?



----- Original Message ----
From: "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 9:19:50 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?




On 5/16/09 10:00 PM, "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> In message <20090517031525.292E7BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal
> Murr
> ay writes:
> 
>> This is one of the reasons why I was looking for a low-cost FPGA on PCI board
>> with some way to get a couple of external inputs.
>> 
>> Things get interesting if your hardware splits a 64 bit read into 2 32 bit
>> transfers.? Many years ago, all Intel chips did that.? I don't know about
>> today.
> 
> You don't need a 64bit counter in the first place.

You might want a 64 bit counter, if you want to keep time across processor
resets.

In which case, if you're saddled with 32 bit (or 8 bit!) reads, you have to
do multiple reads, so that by the end of the process, you can assure
yourself it's consistent.

E.g read high, read low, read high, read low
So you can check low #1 against low #2, and figure out if you had a roll
over.



_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Sun May 17 18:19:30 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 14:19:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
Message-ID: <9526050.1242584370421.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

After numerous diversions, I got back to the box and got it working.
Just as an experiment I stuck 10 MHz in the Reference Input, nada.

So, I need to find a divider to get 5 MHz. I got lots of 10 MHz signals,
even a 15 MHz but no 5 MHz. I really don't want another project just to
build a divider. I'll look around.

As she stands, it is pretty stable. But it would be nice to lock it to
a GPDSO.

Thanks again for the help,

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
>From: Ed Palmer <ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
>Sent: May 14, 2009 8:49 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
>   Pinout is as follows - I think - remember that this is a work in
>   progress
>   1 - no connection
>   2 - alarm output - High = alarm, low = normal  (TTL)
>   3 - probably 'reference fail' - High = fail, low = normal (TTL)
>   4 - EFC okay - High if  4V8 < EFC < 7V5 else low (TTL)
>   5 - no connection
>   6 - buffered EFC voltage for oscillator
>   7 - no connection
>   8 - +10V reference output from oscillator - doesn't seem to be used for
>   anything
>   9 - +5V supply (input)
>   10 - External EFC input - only used when reference fails
>   11 - ground
>   12 -    "
>   13 -    "
>   14 - +24V supply (input) for oscillator
>   15 - +15V supply (input)
>   You talked about BNC.  Did you mean TNC?  My unit has TNC and SMA
>   connectors.  The SMA connectors are all outputs from the oscillator.
>   J3 (TNC) is the input from an external 5 MHz reference.  J4 (TNC) is
>   another output from the oscillator.  Approximate output levels are as
>   follows:
>   J2 - +7 dbm
>   J4 - 0 dbm
>   J5 - 0 dbm
>   J6 - +7 dbm
>   The purpose of the box is to discipline the internal oscillator to an
>   external reference and then distribute the oscillator's signal to four
>   outputs.  The level of the external reference can vary over an unknown
>   range because there's an internal AGC circuit.  I haven't figured out
>   the parameters of the low pass filter used on the output of the phase
>   detector.  Just for laughs I took the 10 MHz output of a Navsync CW-12
>   GPS board, divided it by 2, and fed it into the reference input.  The
>   result wasn't pretty.  Obviously, the circuit wants a smoother source.
>   On mine, the oscillator was defective.  I had to hack into it to fix a
>   broken wire on the output transformer.  I started a message thread a
>   few months back about how to hack into an oscillator - check the
>   archive if you need to.
>   Remember Engineering Rule #1 - Tune for minimum smoke!
>   Ed
>   Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>Was it that good a deal ?? I'll share my secret, I use Gixen to snipe
>on e-Pay. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
>
>Do you know the connections for the DB-15 connector ? Then I can do the
>smoke test !!
>Also what are the BNC and SMA connectors for ? Basically, I know nothing
>but would appreciate any help. I will likewise share my findings.
>
>73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>-----Original Message-----
>
>
>From: Ed Palmer [1]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
>Sent: May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2]<time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
>Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have
>one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want
>to know?
>
>Ed
>
>Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
>I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
>which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
>by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
>on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.
>
>A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
>anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?
>
>Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- [3]time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to [4]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- [5]time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to [6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.
>
>References
>
>   1. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
>   2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   3. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   4. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   5. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
>   6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 17 19:48:39 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 12:48:39 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
	of "Sun,
	17 May 2009 18:38:24 +0200." <4A103D80.9010508@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
Message-ID: <20090517194840.C0F09BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

> Yes, but then, if it did happen, then you need to read low again. If you do
> the 4 reads as a block (say, with interrupts disabled), then you get a nice
> deterministic timing for the code.  In practice, it's just a design decision
> which way one does it.

Let's see if I understand your idea...

If the two highs are the same, you know a carry didn't happen between reading 
the highs so the answer is high, first-low.  That gives you an answer that 
corresponds to some time when you read the first low.

If the two highs differ, you know a carry did happen but you don't know if 
the first low was before or after the carry.  You know the second low was 
after the carry.  So use the second high, second low.  That gives you a time 
between the carry and reading the second low.

I think that works without disabling interrupts.

If we are doing this with a FPGA and have interrupts disabled or a kernel 
lock or only one user or .., it would be easy to latch the other half on the 
first read so you always got a coordinated pair with just two reads.


> No, if the high parts differs, then the MSB of the lower part
> indicates which of the higher parts to go with it, MSB low is the
> late high read and MSB high is the early high read. Infact, by always
> look at the MSB then it will always be correct. With a second lower
> read will the low read point in time be modulated and hence jitter is
> added. 

My head hurts, but I think I have convinced myself that will work.  Thanks.

If there is no carry, you get the time of reading the low half.

If there is a carry...  If the MSB of the low half is high, you get a time 
that is someplace between reading the first high half and reading the low.  
If the MSB of the low half is low, you get a time that is someplace between 
the carry and reading the second high.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Sun May 17 21:24:27 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 15:24:27 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
In-Reply-To: <9526050.1242584370421.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <9526050.1242584370421.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A10808B.7010303@sasktel.net>

   So, the output levels looked good?  Then you were luckier than me.
   I think I tried a fast and dirty divider off of a 10 MHz signal and it
   worked very nicely.  I wasn't trying for 'time-nuts' quality, just
   confirming basic functionality.  I used a 'scope in X-Y mode to view
   both signals.  It's nice to see a Lissajous figure that doesn't make
   you dizzy. :-)
   Do you have a mixer kicking around?  Mix a 10 MHz and 15 MHz signal and
   dump the results into the ref input.  I don't know if the output will
   be at a high enough level, but it can't hurt!
   Ed
   Richard W. Solomon wrote:

After numerous diversions, I got back to the box and got it working.
Just as an experiment I stuck 10 MHz in the Reference Input, nada.

So, I need to find a divider to get 5 MHz. I got lots of 10 MHz signals,
even a 15 MHz but no 5 MHz. I really don't want another project just to
build a divider. I'll look around.

As she stands, it is pretty stable. But it would be nice to lock it to
a GPDSO.

Thanks again for the help,

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----


From: Ed Palmer [1]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
Sent: May 14, 2009 8:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2]<time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box

  Pinout is as follows - I think - remember that this is a work in
  progress
  1 - no connection
  2 - alarm output - High = alarm, low = normal  (TTL)
  3 - probably 'reference fail' - High = fail, low = normal (TTL)
  4 - EFC okay - High if  4V8 < EFC < 7V5 else low (TTL)
  5 - no connection
  6 - buffered EFC voltage for oscillator
  7 - no connection
  8 - +10V reference output from oscillator - doesn't seem to be used for
  anything
  9 - +5V supply (input)
  10 - External EFC input - only used when reference fails
  11 - ground
  12 -    "
  13 -    "
  14 - +24V supply (input) for oscillator
  15 - +15V supply (input)
  You talked about BNC.  Did you mean TNC?  My unit has TNC and SMA
  connectors.  The SMA connectors are all outputs from the oscillator.
  J3 (TNC) is the input from an external 5 MHz reference.  J4 (TNC) is
  another output from the oscillator.  Approximate output levels are as
  follows:
  J2 - +7 dbm
  J4 - 0 dbm
  J5 - 0 dbm
  J6 - +7 dbm
  The purpose of the box is to discipline the internal oscillator to an
  external reference and then distribute the oscillator's signal to four
  outputs.  The level of the external reference can vary over an unknown
  range because there's an internal AGC circuit.  I haven't figured out
  the parameters of the low pass filter used on the output of the phase
  detector.  Just for laughs I took the 10 MHz output of a Navsync CW-12
  GPS board, divided it by 2, and fed it into the reference input.  The
  result wasn't pretty.  Obviously, the circuit wants a smoother source.
  On mine, the oscillator was defective.  I had to hack into it to fix a
  broken wire on the output transformer.  I started a message thread a
  few months back about how to hack into an oscillator - check the
  archive if you need to.
  Remember Engineering Rule #1 - Tune for minimum smoke!
  Ed
  Richard W. Solomon wrote:

Was it that good a deal ?? I'll share my secret, I use Gixen to snipe
on e-Pay. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

Do you know the connections for the DB-15 connector ? Then I can do the
smoke test !!
Also what are the BNC and SMA connectors for ? Basically, I know nothing
but would appreciate any help. I will likewise share my findings.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----


From: Ed Palmer [1][3]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
Sent: May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2][4]<time-nuts at febo.c
om>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box

Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have
one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want
to know?

Ed

Richard W. Solomon wrote:

I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.

A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?

Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- [[5]3]time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to [4][6]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-n
uts
and follow the instructions there.


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to [6][8]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-n
uts
and follow the instructions there.

References

  1. [9]mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
  2. [10]mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  3. [11]mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  4. [12]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  5. [13]mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  6. [14]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- [15]time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to [16]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nut
s
and follow the instructions there.


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time-nuts mailing list -- [17]time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to [18]https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nut
s
and follow the instructions there.

References

   1. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
   2. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
   3. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
   4. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
   5. mailto:3]time-nuts at febo.com
   6. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   7. mailto:5]time-nuts at febo.com
   8. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   9. mailto:ed_palmer at sasktel.net
  10. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  11. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  12. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  13. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  14. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  15. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  16. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
  17. mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
  18. https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 17 22:08:50 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 00:08:50 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090517194840.C0F09BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090517194840.C0F09BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A108AF2.1010200@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hal Murray skrev:
>> Yes, but then, if it did happen, then you need to read low again. If you do
>> the 4 reads as a block (say, with interrupts disabled), then you get a nice
>> deterministic timing for the code.  In practice, it's just a design decision
>> which way one does it.
> 
> Let's see if I understand your idea...
> 
> If the two highs are the same, you know a carry didn't happen between reading 
> the highs so the answer is high, first-low.  That gives you an answer that 
> corresponds to some time when you read the first low.
> 
> If the two highs differ, you know a carry did happen but you don't know if 
> the first low was before or after the carry.  You know the second low was 
> after the carry.  So use the second high, second low.  That gives you a time 
> between the carry and reading the second low.
> 
> I think that works without disabling interrupts.
> 
> If we are doing this with a FPGA and have interrupts disabled or a kernel 
> lock or only one user or .., it would be easy to latch the other half on the 
> first read so you always got a coordinated pair with just two reads.
> 
> 
>> No, if the high parts differs, then the MSB of the lower part
>> indicates which of the higher parts to go with it, MSB low is the
>> late high read and MSB high is the early high read. Infact, by always
>> look at the MSB then it will always be correct. With a second lower
>> read will the low read point in time be modulated and hence jitter is
>> added. 
> 
> My head hurts, but I think I have convinced myself that will work.  Thanks.

It can be a bit hard to visualize this... yes. Hopefully it is worth it.

> If there is no carry, you get the time of reading the low half.
> 
> If there is a carry...  If the MSB of the low half is high, you get a time 
> that is someplace between reading the first high half and reading the low.  
> If the MSB of the low half is low, you get a time that is someplace between 
> the carry and reading the second high.

You also need to understand the basic most common case that no carry 
occur between the two high readings, in that case those will be the same 
so we can use either of them to form the result.

If a carry occurs between the two high readings, then we can expect the 
low reading to be close to 0 on either side of the wrapping. Which side 
determines which holds the right value. If the wrapping of counter 
happend before reading the low part, then the low part will be just 
above 0 where as if it happends just after the low read but before the 
high read, the low read will be just below the maximum counter value.

Thus, the MSB of the low value will disclose which of the two cases we 
have. We can now identify that the first high read would match the case 
where the wrapping occurs after the low read, they both are taken on the 
same side of the wrapping. The second high read would match the case 
where the wrapping occurs before the low read, they both are taken on 
the same side of the wrapping.

If we have a continous counter of high speed, taking a second low value 
would actually polute the result, as it was taken at a later time. Such 
a 4 read solution would add a delay for the low value whenever the carry 
occurs between the high reads. Using the 3 read solution avoids that as 
the low count is samples once and at the same time for all instances.

Cheers,
Magnus


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 17 23:32:17 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:32:17 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from Magnus Danielson <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
	of "Mon,
	18 May 2009 00:08:50 +0200." <4A108AF2.1010200@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
Message-ID: <20090517233218.01D11BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> If a carry occurs between the two high readings, then we can expect
> the  low reading to be close to 0 on either side of the wrapping.
> Which side determines which holds the right value. If the wrapping of
> counter happend before reading the low part, then the low part will
> be just above 0 where as if it happends just after the low read but
> before the high read, the low read will be just below the maximum
> counter value. 

I'm interested in the case where interrupts and scheduling are enabled so 
there may be arbitrary gaps inserted into the simple code.  My rule-of-thumb 
for "works right" is that the final answer has to correspond to a time 
between the first read and the last read.  (Anywhere in there is OK.)

I though I had convinced myself the above scheme would work, but now that I 
try again I'm not so sure.

I think this case doesn't work right:
  read high
  overflow
  long gap
  read low
  read high

Suppose the low half overflows once a second so I can use handy numbers.

If the long gap is 0.6 second, the MSB of the low half will be on so we use 
the first high sample.  That corresponds to a time 0.4 seconds before the 
overflow.  That's outside the first-last window.  (I'm assuming all the reads 
and checking take negligible time which seems reasonable if we are talking 
about 0.6 seconds of gap.)

I think there is a mirror image case:
  read high
  read low
  long gap
  overflow
  read high

Suppose the long gap is 0,6 seconds so the low half will read 0.4.  The MSB 
will be off so we use the second high sample.  That will produce an answer 
0.4 seconds into the future.





-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun May 17 23:44:30 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 17:44:30 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090517233218.01D11BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<20090517233218.01D11BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <20090517.174430.14999461.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090517233218.01D11BCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
            Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> writes:
: 
: > If a carry occurs between the two high readings, then we can expect
: > the  low reading to be close to 0 on either side of the wrapping.
: > Which side determines which holds the right value. If the wrapping of
: > counter happend before reading the low part, then the low part will
: > be just above 0 where as if it happends just after the low read but
: > before the high read, the low read will be just below the maximum
: > counter value. 
: 
: I'm interested in the case where interrupts and scheduling are enabled so 
: there may be arbitrary gaps inserted into the simple code.

Interrupts enabled means that you can't make it reliable.

: I think this case doesn't work right:
:   read high
:   overflow
:   long gap
:   read low
:   read high
: 
: Suppose the low half overflows once a second so I can use handy numbers.
: 
: If the long gap is 0.6 second, the MSB of the low half will be on so we use 
: the first high sample.  That corresponds to a time 0.4 seconds before the 
: overflow.  That's outside the first-last window.  (I'm assuming all the reads 
: and checking take negligible time which seems reasonable if we are talking 
: about 0.6 seconds of gap.)
: 
: I think there is a mirror image case:
:   read high
:   read low
:   long gap
:   overflow
:   read high
: 
: Suppose the long gap is 0,6 seconds so the low half will read 0.4.  The MSB 
: will be off so we use the second high sample.  That will produce an answer 
: 0.4 seconds into the future.

Yes, this is why you must disable interrupts.  You aren't racing other
parts of software, but rather you are racing the wrapping of the
counter in hardware.  To reliably cope, you have to make sure that a
third-party can't interrupt you producing the cases you describe...

Warner


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sun May 17 23:54:44 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:54:44 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
In-Reply-To: <4A10808B.7010303@sasktel.net>
References: <9526050.1242584370421.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<4A10808B.7010303@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <4A10A3C4.8060703@xtra.co.nz>

Ed

A simple 3 transistor (2N3904) injection locked divider could be used to
produce +20dBm @ 5MHz in a 50 ohm load.
The 3 transistors combine the  VCO, phase detector and filter functions.
With high level injection the loop bandwidth is very high and the 5MHz
output phase noise will closely track the input signal phase noise
albeit a few dB below the input source phase noise.

An emitter coupled differential pair oscillator with 10MHz modulation of
the tail current source should work well.

This technique can be used effectively at frequencies for which no
digital divider is available.

It is important to choose an appropriate oscillator topology.
The above oscillator topology works well for frequency division by an
even integer.
Dividing by an odd integer requires a different oscillator topology

Bruce

Ed Palmer wrote:
>    So, the output levels looked good?  Then you were luckier than me.
>    I think I tried a fast and dirty divider off of a 10 MHz signal and it
>    worked very nicely.  I wasn't trying for 'time-nuts' quality, just
>    confirming basic functionality.  I used a 'scope in X-Y mode to view
>    both signals.  It's nice to see a Lissajous figure that doesn't make
>    you dizzy. :-)
>    Do you have a mixer kicking around?  Mix a 10 MHz and 15 MHz signal and
>    dump the results into the ref input.  I don't know if the output will
>    be at a high enough level, but it can't hurt!
>    Ed
>    Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
> After numerous diversions, I got back to the box and got it working.
> Just as an experiment I stuck 10 MHz in the Reference Input, nada.
>
> So, I need to find a divider to get 5 MHz. I got lots of 10 MHz signals,
> even a 15 MHz but no 5 MHz. I really don't want another project just to
> build a divider. I'll look around.
>
> As she stands, it is pretty stable. But it would be nice to lock it to
> a GPDSO.
>
> Thanks again for the help,
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Ed Palmer [1]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
> Sent: May 14, 2009 8:49 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2]<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
>   Pinout is as follows - I think - remember that this is a work in
>   progress
>   1 - no connection
>   2 - alarm output - High = alarm, low = normal  (TTL)
>   3 - probably 'reference fail' - High = fail, low = normal (TTL)
>   4 - EFC okay - High if  4V8 < EFC < 7V5 else low (TTL)
>   5 - no connection
>   6 - buffered EFC voltage for oscillator
>   7 - no connection
>   8 - +10V reference output from oscillator - doesn't seem to be used for
>   anything
>   9 - +5V supply (input)
>   10 - External EFC input - only used when reference fails
>   11 - ground
>   12 -    "
>   13 -    "
>   14 - +24V supply (input) for oscillator
>   15 - +15V supply (input)
>   You talked about BNC.  Did you mean TNC?  My unit has TNC and SMA
>   connectors.  The SMA connectors are all outputs from the oscillator.
>   J3 (TNC) is the input from an external 5 MHz reference.  J4 (TNC) is
>   another output from the oscillator.  Approximate output levels are as
>   follows:
>   J2 - +7 dbm
>   J4 - 0 dbm
>   J5 - 0 dbm
>   J6 - +7 dbm
>   The purpose of the box is to discipline the internal oscillator to an
>   external reference and then distribute the oscillator's signal to four
>   outputs.  The level of the external reference can vary over an unknown
>   range because there's an internal AGC circuit.  I haven't figured out
>   the parameters of the low pass filter used on the output of the phase
>   detector.  Just for laughs I took the 10 MHz output of a Navsync CW-12
>   GPS board, divided it by 2, and fed it into the reference input.  The
>   result wasn't pretty.  Obviously, the circuit wants a smoother source.
>   On mine, the oscillator was defective.  I had to hack into it to fix a
>   broken wire on the output transformer.  I started a message thread a
>   few months back about how to hack into an oscillator - check the
>   archive if you need to.
>   Remember Engineering Rule #1 - Tune for minimum smoke!
>   Ed
>   Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
> Was it that good a deal ?? I'll share my secret, I use Gixen to snipe
> on e-Pay. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.
>
> Do you know the connections for the DB-15 connector ? Then I can do the
> smoke test !!
> Also what are the BNC and SMA connectors for ? Basically, I know nothing
> but would appreciate any help. I will likewise share my findings.
>
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
>
> From: Ed Palmer [1][3]<ed_palmer at sasktel.net>
> Sent: May 14, 2009 1:10 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement [2][4]<time-nuts at febo.c
> om>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Help ID 5 MHz Distribution Box
>
> Since you beat me by *THREE SECONDS* I shouldn't help you, but I have
> one of these boxes and have partially figured it out.  What do you want
> to know?
>
> Ed
>
> Richard W. Solomon wrote:
>
> I picked up a box from "over there" that says ..."5 MH REF DISTRIB"... ,
> which I assume stands for 5 MHz Reference Distribution. It was made
> by Satellite Transmission Systems of Hauppagge, NY. 2 BNC connectors
> on one end, 3 SMA's a Red LED Alarm light and a DB-15 connector.
>
> A real long shot, I know, but on the off-chance, does anyone know
> anything about this ? Anyone know if the company still exists ?
>
> Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ
>
>   



From geoff36 at gmail.com  Mon May 18 00:21:28 2009
From: geoff36 at gmail.com (Kiwi Geoff)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:21:28 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
Message-ID: <19732ee50905171721w442ccdfcg7390f26fd767e1d8@mail.gmail.com>

Att NZ Time nuts:

Normally National Radio (AM and FM) is a reasonable source of time in
New Zealand, and the time pips are normally within about 200 ms of UTC
atomic time (due to coding delays in the digital transfer of the audio
program).

However today at 11am and Noon (local time 18 May 2009) I noticed the
time pips were 1 second SLOW compared with 2 GPS timing systems I
have.

I am assuming my GPS clocks I have are correct (too early here to get
WWVH reception). National Radio uses a land line feed from the NZ
standard (atomic) clocks, so it is a little strange to have such a
large error as one second!

So if there are any time nuts in NZ, you may like to listen to the
time pips on National radio this afternoon to see if you can detect
the one second difference.

Hoping the one second delta is not me!

Regards, Geoff (Christchurch, NZ).


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 18 00:28:16 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 17:28:16 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from "M. Warner Losh" <imp@bsdimp.com> of "Sun,
	17 May 2009 17:44:30 MDT." <20090517.174430.14999461.imp@bsdimp.com> 
Message-ID: <20090518002817.EC3B7BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


>> I'm interested in the case where interrupts and scheduling are
>> enabled so there may be arbitrary gaps inserted into the simple
>> code.

> Interrupts enabled means that you can't make it reliable. 

Sure you can.  Just compare the two high samples and try again if they are 
different.

This disadvantage is that you get more jitter on how long it takes to get the 
answer.  That may be better than taking the overhead of a system call to get 
into the kernel.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon May 18 02:48:47 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 19:48:47 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
References: <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org><20090517233218.01D11BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<20090517.174430.14999461.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <8BE729767E724DFEAAFCDED714516060@pc52>

do {
    t32a = read.high
    t32b = read.low
    t32c  = read.high
} while (t32a != t32c)

time64 = (t32a << 32) | t32b

/tvb



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 18 03:03:42 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 20:03:42 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: Message from Kiwi Geoff <geoff36@gmail.com> of "Mon,
	18 May 2009 12:21:28 +1200."
	<19732ee50905171721w442ccdfcg7390f26fd767e1d8@mail.gmail.com> 
Message-ID: <20090518030343.A7565BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> I am assuming my GPS clocks I have are correct (too early here to get
> WWVH reception).

> Hoping the one second delta is not me! 


I have seen consumer grade GPS receivers be off by a second while claiming to 
be OK.

One case was a gross software bug.  I think it was triggered by a pending 
leap second.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/leap-gps.gif

One was off by a second for 13 seconds just before the leap second kicked in. 
 I assume they inserted it on GPS midnight rather than UTC midnight.

The interesting cases are just off-by-a-second quirks.  I think they happen 
when the receiver is recovering from a too-weak signal.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVC-glitch1-off.gif
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18LVC-glitch2-off.gif


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 18 04:15:22 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 21:15:22 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com> 
	of "Sun, 17 May 2009 09:42:54 PDT."
	<684742.88958.qm@web30308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <20090518041523.7B7CDBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> Why not add a hardware latch with a fixed delay to read. That is the
> delay controls the latch function after the counter is static as well
> as the interrupt. Then reset the latch buffer on the last read. We
> have a fixed hardware delay plus a software delay to allow for but
> eliminate some of the variability. And?reduce?the failed read due to
> software delay. Now a second interrupt / read will indicate delays
> greater than the tick rate if our OS has interrupts that are?off
> greater than the tick rate minus the delay of the latch. Our choice
> would be to slow the tick rate or reduce the interrupts off blind time
> if we have many failed reads where the tick is more than one.?The idea
> would be to reduce the error to a rare event. This problem is like the
> meta stable problem discussed here before so perhaps the fixes are the
> same. 

I don't understand what you are trying to describe.

There are two separate problems.  One is reading 64 bits.  The other is 
metastability.

Metastability is simple.   Lets assume we have 2 clocks.  The PCI clock is 33 
MHz.  The external good-timing clock is 10 MHz.

Since 10 is slower than 33, the simple way to do things is to toggle a FF 
with the 10 MHz clock and send that through a synchronizer to the 33 MHz 
domain.  Each time that FF changes, we know a tick has happened so we bump 
the counter by 1 clock tick at 10 MHz.  That's just a clock enable on the 
register adding 100 (ns) to itself.  (assuming the register counts ns)  This 
is simple and clean.  The disadvantage is that the clock has slightly lower 
resolution than what might be posible.

The other way is do the counting with the 10 MHz clock, perhaps after PLLing 
it up to 100 MHz.  Now, to read the clock, you send a signal from the PCI 
domain through a synchronizer to the external clock domain.  That copies the 
counter to a holding register, sends a "ready" signal back through a 
synchronizer to the PCI domain so the PCI logic which has been stalled can 
read the stable copy.  This is classic 4-way handshake.  You can speed things 
up by "knowing" (by design) that X will happen within Y clock cycles, so you 
only have to count to Y rather than wait for the ACK to get ack.

Another approach is to use a small FIFO.  In this context, FIFO means magic 
that solves metastability, and small means as small as you can get away with 
to minimize latency.  Again, lets assume the PCI clock is 33 MHz and the 
external clock is 10 MHz PLLed up to 100 MHz.  The PCI would read samples 
from the FIFO and add them to its counter.  The external side would write 
samples into the FIFO.  Each sample would represent the number of ns to add 
to the counter.  Since 100 is bigger than 33, the FIFO will normally be full. 
 So the send side can't write a constant 10 each cycle.  It has to collect 
those 10s in a register.  When the FIFO has room, it writes that register 
into the FIFO and resets it to the 10 for this cycle.  With 33 MHz and 100 
MHz, the FIFO would contain samples of 30 and 40.

I think there is a simple/sneaky way to build that FIFO.  It needs 2 or 4 
registers.  I don't remember the trick.  I might be able to work it out.


The other problem is how to read a 64 bit register when the hardware only 
supports reading 32 bit  chunks.

I think you either have to:

  fFx the hardware (or get new hardware) so it can do 64 bit atomic reads.

  Read the halves separately and put things together with the tricks we have 
been discussing.  That only works if you know something about the data, for 
example that the whole register is a counter and the high bits only change 
slowly.

  Read one half and put the other half into a holding register where you can 
read it later.  If you only have 1 holding register, then you have to 
restrict things to only 1 context is doing the reads at a time.  Otherwise 
somebody else will come along during an interrupt or reschedule and read 
things.  Then when you get to run again you read their copy of the holding 
register rather than yours.  You can have multiple holding registers, but 
then you have to allocate 1 to each context that needs it.


I don't see how a "hardware latch with a fixed delay" is going to help and/or 
what you have in mind.  Perhaps you wanted to have the right value of other 
half ready when the second read happened?  The problem with that is that the 
timing on PCI isn't predictable so a fixed delay won't work.  So you need a 
holding register triggered by logic rather than a fixed delay.


  


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Mon May 18 06:05:19 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 23:05:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090518041523.7B7CDBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090518041523.7B7CDBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <291702.8037.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


Yes hardware, the fixed delay is triggered by the input clock and would delay the sample and latch of the counter when it is stable. The problem I was trying to solve is latching the counter?while?it is changing. The latch?is to save the sample value for as?long as needed for it to be read by the computer.

I need to go back and read what you are trying to measure with your clock. Is it internal to the computer or an external event ?

I was thinking you were counting pulse per second not 10 MHz with your counter but if the event is external to the computer it should also control the latch, that is only latch if the counter is stable and the external event is true.

Not sure what you would do with 64 bit data at a 10MHz or 100MHz rate other than a FIFO buffer. 

This is sounding more like a better fit for a real time operating system plus some hardware if you really need a high data rate.

Sorry I'm totally confused now.

Stanley


?


----- Original Message ----
From: Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 11:15:22 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?


> Why not add a hardware latch with a fixed delay to read. That is the
> delay controls the latch function after the counter is static as well
> as the interrupt. Then reset the latch buffer on the last read. We
> have a fixed hardware delay plus a software delay to allow for but
> eliminate some of the variability. And?reduce?the failed read due to
> software delay. Now a second interrupt / read will indicate delays
> greater than the tick rate if our OS has interrupts that are?off
> greater than the tick rate minus the delay of the latch. Our choice
> would be to slow the tick rate or reduce the interrupts off blind time
> if we have many failed reads where the tick is more than one.?The idea
> would be to reduce the error to a rare event. This problem is like the
> meta stable problem discussed here before so perhaps the fixes are the
> same. 

I don't understand what you are trying to describe.

There are two separate problems.? One is reading 64 bits.? The other is 
metastability.

Metastability is simple.? Lets assume we have 2 clocks.? The PCI clock is 33 
MHz.? The external good-timing clock is 10 MHz.

Since 10 is slower than 33, the simple way to do things is to toggle a FF 
with the 10 MHz clock and send that through a synchronizer to the 33 MHz 
domain.? Each time that FF changes, we know a tick has happened so we bump 
the counter by 1 clock tick at 10 MHz.? That's just a clock enable on the 
register adding 100 (ns) to itself.? (assuming the register counts ns)? This 
is simple and clean.? The disadvantage is that the clock has slightly lower 
resolution than what might be posible.

The other way is do the counting with the 10 MHz clock, perhaps after PLLing 
it up to 100 MHz.? Now, to read the clock, you send a signal from the PCI 
domain through a synchronizer to the external clock domain.? That copies the 
counter to a holding register, sends a "ready" signal back through a 
synchronizer to the PCI domain so the PCI logic which has been stalled can 
read the stable copy.? This is classic 4-way handshake.? You can speed things 
up by "knowing" (by design) that X will happen within Y clock cycles, so you 
only have to count to Y rather than wait for the ACK to get ack.

Another approach is to use a small FIFO.? In this context, FIFO means magic 
that solves metastability, and small means as small as you can get away with 
to minimize latency.? Again, lets assume the PCI clock is 33 MHz and the 
external clock is 10 MHz PLLed up to 100 MHz.? The PCI would read samples 
from the FIFO and add them to its counter.? The external side would write 
samples into the FIFO.? Each sample would represent the number of ns to add 
to the counter.? Since 100 is bigger than 33, the FIFO will normally be full. 
So the send side can't write a constant 10 each cycle.? It has to collect 
those 10s in a register.? When the FIFO has room, it writes that register 
into the FIFO and resets it to the 10 for this cycle.? With 33 MHz and 100 
MHz, the FIFO would contain samples of 30 and 40.

I think there is a simple/sneaky way to build that FIFO.? It needs 2 or 4 
registers.? I don't remember the trick.? I might be able to work it out.


The other problem is how to read a 64 bit register when the hardware only 
supports reading 32 bit? chunks.

I think you either have to:

? fFx the hardware (or get new hardware) so it can do 64 bit atomic reads.

? Read the halves separately and put things together with the tricks we have 
been discussing.? That only works if you know something about the data, for 
example that the whole register is a counter and the high bits only change 
slowly.

? Read one half and put the other half into a holding register where you can 
read it later.? If you only have 1 holding register, then you have to 
restrict things to only 1 context is doing the reads at a time.? Otherwise 
somebody else will come along during an interrupt or reschedule and read 
things.? Then when you get to run again you read their copy of the holding 
register rather than yours.? You can have multiple holding registers, but 
then you have to allocate 1 to each context that needs it.


I don't see how a "hardware latch with a fixed delay" is going to help and/or 
what you have in mind.? Perhaps you wanted to have the right value of other 
half ready when the second read happened?? The problem with that is that the 
timing on PCI isn't predictable so a fixed delay won't work.? So you need a 
holding register triggered by logic rather than a fixed delay.


? 


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.? I hate spam.




_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon May 18 06:23:20 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:23:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 17 May 2009 21:15:22 MST."
	<20090518041523.7B7CDBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> 
Message-ID: <87952.1242627800@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090518041523.7B7CDBCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murr
ay writes:
>
>> Why not add a hardware latch with a fixed delay to read. 

Because then you need locking to prevent multiple threads/processes
from accssing the hardware at the same time.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon May 18 08:01:03 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:01:03 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090517.174430.14999461.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <magnus@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<20090517233218.01D11BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<20090517.174430.14999461.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <4A1115BF.2040507@rubidium.dyndns.org>

M. Warner Losh skrev:
>
> : I think this case doesn't work right:
> :   read high
> :   overflow
> :   long gap
> :   read low
> :   read high
> : 
> : Suppose the low half overflows once a second so I can use handy numbers.
> : 
> : If the long gap is 0.6 second, the MSB of the low half will be on so we use 
> : the first high sample.  That corresponds to a time 0.4 seconds before the 
> : overflow.  That's outside the first-last window.  (I'm assuming all the reads 
> : and checking take negligible time which seems reasonable if we are talking 
> : about 0.6 seconds of gap.)
> : 
> : I think there is a mirror image case:
> :   read high
> :   read low
> :   long gap
> :   overflow
> :   read high
> : 
> : Suppose the long gap is 0,6 seconds so the low half will read 0.4.  The MSB 
> : will be off so we use the second high sample.  That will produce an answer 
> : 0.4 seconds into the future.
> 
> Yes, this is why you must disable interrupts.  You aren't racing other
> parts of software, but rather you are racing the wrapping of the
> counter in hardware.  To reliably cope, you have to make sure that a
> third-party can't interrupt you producing the cases you describe...

I agree. It is only the actual reads which needs protection for this 
processing to work. There might be other constraints which require a 
large part of the code to be protected, for only for the reliable 
readout you can make the post-processing anytime you want.

The cases of my 3 read situation is:

early overflow:

read high
overflow
read low  -+
read high -+- correct pair

late overflow:

read high -+
read low  -+- correct pair
overflow
read high

no overflow:
read high -+- equal value => pick any of them freely
read low   |
read high -+

Cheers,
Magnus


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon May 18 08:03:24 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:03:24 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090518002817.EC3B7BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090518002817.EC3B7BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A11164C.60904@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hal Murray skrev:
>>> I'm interested in the case where interrupts and scheduling are
>>> enabled so there may be arbitrary gaps inserted into the simple
>>> code.
> 
>> Interrupts enabled means that you can't make it reliable. 
> 
> Sure you can.  Just compare the two high samples and try again if they are 
> different.
> 
> This disadvantage is that you get more jitter on how long it takes to get the 
> answer.  That may be better than taking the overhead of a system call to get 
> into the kernel.

If we are talking about timestamping an interrupt for instance this 
should not be a major issue. For a micro-kernel, things which normally 
go into a device driver should be put in a suitable task.

Cheers,
Magnus


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 18 08:12:55 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 01:12:55 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds@yahoo.com> 
	of "Sun,
	17 May 2009 23:05:19 PDT." <291702.8037.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090518081256.97F2BBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com said:
> I need to go back and read what you are trying to measure with your
> clock. Is it internal to the computer or an external event ? 

I was thinking of a FPGA on a PCI bus.  It has to be PCI rather than USB in 
order to get reasonable timings.

I was going to put the Unix clock in the FPGA.  It's a pair of 32 bit words.  
The high word is seconds since some magic date/time.  The low word is 
nano-seconds within this second.

I was planning to drive that with a stable external clock, say a GPSDO.  So if things were setup properly, it should be a very good clock.

The typical Unix clock is implemented by looking at the TSC.   I think that's Intel's term for a register that counts each CPU cycle, Time Stamp Counter.  The CPU comes from an inexpensive crystal.  The frequency of that crystal varies (wildly) with temperature.  The temperature varies with activity.

The basic idea is that you maintain a reference time and TSC value.  To get the current time, you read the TSC, subtract off the reference TSC.  That gives you the number of CPU clock ticks since the reference time.  Convert that to nanoseconds, add on the reference time, and normalize.  You have to update the reference info periodically, in particular before that subtract will over/underflow.

phk points out that you can use the TSC type clock logic by reading a simple counter from the FPGA rather than the TSC register.  That gets you a stable clock without all the problems with reading 64 bits from the FPGA.

You could also replace the CPU crystal with a clock derived via a PLL from your stable 10 MHz clock.  Things get slightly messy because the CPU and PCI clocks usually have some spread spectrum to reduce EMI.  I don't have numbers.  I expect it will be small/tiny, but I'll bet you can measure it.

That just gets you a basic clock.  If you also feed a PPS signal into the FPGA, then you can get very accurate timings by grabbing a copy of the time register(s) on the leading edge of the PPS signal.  That has metastability opportunities, but if you can solve the basic metastability issues, the same trick will work here.


As phk points out, the idea of putting the whole Unix clock in the FPGA may be silly.  It seemed like a fun problem so I've been thinking about how to do it.

Another variation that might be interesting...  The implementations I described previously all assumed the clocks had round numbers so you could do things like add 30 or 40 ns to the counter each PCI clock tick.  Those round numbers are convenient.  You could also add fractions of a ns.  Since this stuff can be pipelined as much as necessary to meet timings, you can make the fractional part as wide as you want to get better accuracy.  This might be handy if your external clock was slightly off, say a Rubidium that wasn't calibrated.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon May 18 09:20:58 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:20:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 May 2009 01:12:55 MST."
	<20090518081256.97F2BBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net> 
Message-ID: <88983.1242638458@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090518081256.97F2BBCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murr
ay writes:

>I was going to put the Unix clock in the FPGA.  It's a pair of 32 bit words.  
>The high word is seconds since some magic date/time.  The low word is 
>nano-seconds within this second.

Please, will you guys stop reinventing the octagonal wheel, and at least
look at the blueprint for the round wheel ?

	http://phk.freebsd.dk/pubs/timecounter.pdf

If there is anything you don't understand or wants explained in that paper,
by all means ask!

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon May 18 13:18:25 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:18:25 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090518081256.97F2BBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <C636AE31.7D41%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/18/09 1:12 AM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

> 
> 
> stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com said:
>> I need to go back and read what you are trying to measure with your
>> clock. Is it internal to the computer or an external event ?
> 
> I was thinking of a FPGA on a PCI bus.  It has to be PCI rather than USB in
> order to get reasonable timings.
> 
> I was going to put the Unix clock in the FPGA.  It's a pair of 32 bit words.
> The high word is seconds since some magic date/time.  The low word is
> nano-seconds within this second.
> 

I would make that "magic time" the time when power was applied.  Do the
transformation from "hardware time" to "Unix time" in software (since it
requires just arithmetic.. An add (offset between the two time zeros) and a
multiply (for the scale factor between "unix time" and your hardware
counter)

If you have a solution where you "jam" the hardware counter to "set it", you
always have a question about the latency of that set operation.  It's pretty
easy in hardware (FPGA) to arrange an "atomic" read of an arbitrarily long
counter into a holding register, which software then reads.

> 
> 
> I was planning to drive that with a stable external clock, say a GPSDO.  So if
> things were setup properly, it should be a very good clock.
> 
> The typical Unix clock is implemented by looking at the TSC.   I think that's
> Intel's term for a register that counts each CPU cycle, Time Stamp Counter.
> The CPU comes from an inexpensive crystal.  The frequency of that crystal
> varies (wildly) with temperature.  The temperature varies with activity.

I don't know about wildly.  Certainly in time-nuts land, a few tens of ppm
is wild variation, but in the overall scheme of things, it's still
reasonably good.



> 
> The basic idea is that you maintain a reference time and TSC value.  To get
> the current time, you read the TSC, subtract off the reference TSC.  That
> gives you the number of CPU clock ticks since the reference time.  Convert
> that to nanoseconds, add on the reference time, and normalize.  You have to
> update the reference info periodically, in particular before that subtract
> will over/underflow.
> 
> 



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon May 18 13:28:09 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:28:09 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C636AE31.7D41%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/18/09 6:18 AM, "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 5/18/09 1:12 AM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com said:
>>> I need to go back and read what you are trying to measure with your
>>> clock. Is it internal to the computer or an external event ?
>> 
>> I was thinking of a FPGA on a PCI bus.  It has to be PCI rather than USB in
>> order to get reasonable timings.
>> 
>> I was going to put the Unix clock in the FPGA.  It's a pair of 32 bit words.
>> The high word is seconds since some magic date/time.  The low word is
>> nano-seconds within this second.
>> 
> 
> I would make that "magic time" the time when power was applied.  Do the
> transformation from "hardware time" to "Unix time" in software (since it
> requires just arithmetic.. An add (offset between the two time zeros) and a
> multiply (for the scale factor between "unix time" and your hardware
> counter)



I also wouldn't have the low order counter count nanoseconds, or even set it
up as seconds/subseconds.  Use one long counter that counts whatever
frequency you want to count.  An integer divide in software is quite fast
(unless you're working with something like a Z80).

There's no real advantage in having "hardware" count seconds.. It takes more
gates to count by arbitrary N than 2^M.  Also, say you set your counters up
to divide by 10E6..assuming you have a 10MHz source.  And then you find that
your source is really 10,000,001 Hz (I know... A 0.1 ppm error is anathema
in this crowd).. Now, if you want to convert your (estimated seconds,
estimated nanoseconds) into "real" time, you've got tricky arithmetic to do
(with all the roundoff and arithmetic issues to deal with).

Ticks = secondscounter*nominaltickrate + subsecondscounter;
Realseconds = floor(ticks/actualtickrate)
Realsubseconds = remainder/actualtickrate;





From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon May 18 13:32:33 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:32:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 18 May 2009 06:28:09 MST."
	<C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov> 
Message-ID: <8594.1242653553@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Lux, James P" writes:

>An integer divide in software is quite fast
>(unless you're working with something like a Z80).

You only need to divide when you want to change your estimate of the
counters range, for generating timestamps a multiplication will do.

>There's no real advantage in having "hardware" count seconds.. It takes more
>gates to count by arbitrary N than 2^M. 

Not only that, it makes the calculation of timeintervals as differences
between two timestamps a royal mess:

#define timersub(tvp, uvp, vvp)                                         \
        do {                                                            \
                (vvp)->tv_sec = (tvp)->tv_sec - (uvp)->tv_sec;          \
                (vvp)->tv_usec = (tvp)->tv_usec - (uvp)->tv_usec;       \
                if ((vvp)->tv_usec < 0) {                               \
                        (vvp)->tv_sec--;                                \
                        (vvp)->tv_usec += 1000000;                      \
                }                                                       \
        } while (0)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From imp at bsdimp.com  Mon May 18 15:24:14 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:24:14 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C636AE31.7D41%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
	<C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <20090518.092414.-135504652.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <C636B079.7D49%James.P.Lux at jpl.nasa.gov>
            "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
: I also wouldn't have the low order counter count nanoseconds, or even set it
: up as seconds/subseconds.

I'd echo this, since you are artificially limiting the clocks that are
input to having a period of an exact number of nanoseconds.  This
rounding could lead to systematic errors that would lead to a higher
noise in the measurements.

A simple counter is more flexible.  It allows for a number of
additional algorithms to be applied to the raw time measurements to
account for drift in the underlying oscillator.  Phk's timecounters
allow for this.  They assume a time source that is free-running.  It
can be measured against a known better source to improve its accuracy
(which is what ntpd does).  This allows one to correct over time for,
say, the relatively crappy internal oscillator found in most PCs.  The
nice thing about timecounters is they allow hardware as described in
this thread to replace the underlying system hardware.

Warner


From Murray.Greenman at rakon.com  Mon May 18 18:34:07 2009
From: Murray.Greenman at rakon.com (Murray Greenman)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 06:34:07 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts re time pips
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1122.1242627801.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1122.1242627801.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BE50C3A72EBA61449C804B2C8B4AE38101EBBE50@NEPTUNE.rakon.net>

Geoff,
I'm not in a position to check at present, but have also noticed
discrepancies in the time pips in the past. I'd not use a GPS receiver
for this, as they can easily indicate a second or so out. I use a GPS
Disciplined Receiver (HP Z3801A or Trimble NTGS50AA) for the job.

I suggest you talk to Dr Tim Armstrong (T.Armstrong at irl.cri.nz). He's
the guy who looks after the official NZ time service, which is the
source of those time pips. The equipment is at Gracefield in a room with
three Caesium standards. He should be able to explain how the time pips
are distributed, and you may find (if you encourage him a little!) that
he is also interested in measuring their delivered accuracy as well.

Regards,

Murray ZL1BPU



From lists at philpem.me.uk  Mon May 18 19:59:14 2009
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:59:14 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <20090518030343.A7565BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090518030343.A7565BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A11BE12.1050501@philpem.me.uk>

Hal Murray wrote:
> One case was a gross software bug.  I think it was triggered by a pending 
> leap second.
>   http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/leap-gps.gif

Interesting that the three receivers with issues were all SiRF III based. Do 
you know what firmware these were running?

How are you running the comparisons -- comparing against public NTP servers?

I'm just curious, there's a pair of Fastrax SiRF III modules that I was going 
to wire up for testing (and maybe use for a GPSDO), but your test results have 
planted the seeds of doubt!

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From pete at petelancashire.com  Mon May 18 20:48:11 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:48:11 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] worth anything ? Tracor 308A "Will not lock"
In-Reply-To: <50525.87.227.52.225.1242422016.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
References: <4A0C7A74.50901@tiscali.co.uk>
	<20090515142956.GH2435@vanheusden.com>
	<50525.87.227.52.225.1242422016.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
Message-ID: <b8463f451c39fb818bfb8e065ebaa686.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=3279

comments on .. now in a pile that may become scrap

location is 45 miles from Portland Oregon

-pete


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 18 20:49:17 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:49:17 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: Message from Philip Pemberton <lists@philpem.me.uk> 
	of "Mon, 18 May 2009 20:59:14 BST." <4A11BE12.1050501@philpem.me.uk> 
Message-ID: <20090518204918.985E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


lists at philpem.me.uk said:
> Interesting that the three receivers with issues were all SiRF III
> based. Do  you know what firmware these were running? 

Nope.  If you know the recipe to find out, I'll ask them.  :)

I just scanned their NMEA documentation and didn't see any way to get it.


> How are you running the comparisons -- comparing against public NTP servers?

The data gets collected on a system without PPS, but it's sitting next to a 
machine that does have PPS from a Z3801A.  So their is some noise on the 
reference time, but not much on the scale of a 100 ms that the SiRF chips 
wander over.


> I'm just curious, there's a pair of Fastrax SiRF III modules that I
> was going  to wire up for testing (and maybe use for a GPSDO), but
> your test results have  planted the seeds of doubt! 

I expect the PPS output is still OK.  It's just that the software is off by 
one in some strange pattern when a leap second is pending.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From lists at philpem.me.uk  Mon May 18 23:50:20 2009
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 00:50:20 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <20090518204918.985E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090518204918.985E2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A11F43C.1010306@philpem.me.uk>

Hal Murray wrote:
>> Interesting that the three receivers with issues were all SiRF III
>> based. Do  you know what firmware these were running? 
> 
> Nope.  If you know the recipe to find out, I'll ask them.  :)
> 
> I just scanned their NMEA documentation and didn't see any way to get it.

If memory serves, there's a $PSRF command to kick them into SiRF Binary mode, 
then you send a SiRF binary command -- "Request Version" or something like 
that. Then you get a binary response with the software type (i.e. if the 
manufacturer of the GPS board paid extra for the "enhanced navigation" 
software) and the version of that software.

To be truthful, the stuff is in the manuals (you want $PSRF100 from the SiRF 
NMEA manual, which is on www.fastraxgps.com under Products, IT321, in the 
datasheet section on the bottom right) but if you've got a Windows box around 
somewhere, it's probably easier to grab a copy of SiRF's "SiRF Demo" app and 
use that. To get the software version, plug the GPS in, select the serial port 
and connect to the module, then select Poll >> SW Version. The version number 
should appear in the "Response View".

Failing that, the "sirfmon" app that comes with gpsd might get the receiver 
into binary mode and should let you talk to it, but I haven't used it.

For reference when dealing with SiRF manuals: GSW2 = SiRFStar II, GSW3 = 
SiRFStar III.

> The data gets collected on a system without PPS, but it's sitting next to a 
> machine that does have PPS from a Z3801A.  So their is some noise on the 
> reference time, but not much on the scale of a 100 ms that the SiRF chips 
> wander over.

There is something of a subtle note in the SiRF NMEA manual 
(<http://www.fastraxgps.com/showfile.cfm?guid=9de68fec-1d95-4fd3-8809-f068c9aaf220>) 
on page 1-7 (PDF p.15) under "ZDA -- Time and Date". Basically, the chip sends 
the 1PPS first, then queues a ZDA message to be sent.

I suspect there's probably some form of co-operative multitasking or RTOS 
engine running on the SiRF chip's CPU (I've been told it's an ARM 
something-or-other), which loops over a list of 'tasks' in a round-robin 
fashion. If the PPS flag gets sent (by the 1PPS loop, probably an interrupt 
driven from the correlator array, I haven't read the GPS specs but understand 
the basics) just after the flag is checked by the ZDA handler, you won't see 
another ZDA message until the loop gets back to the ZDA handler again.

So accuracy of the NMEA messages may well be pretty terrible, though as you 
said the 1PPS should be pretty good.

> I expect the PPS output is still OK.  It's just that the software is off by 
> one in some strange pattern when a leap second is pending.

I remember reading something about this a few days ago, but it seems to have 
dropped out of my Firefox browsing history. IIRC there were issues with the 
various navigation modes in V3.1.1, but all my Google searches are coming up 
with are some GPS user's forums and a note in the gpsd changelog from 2005.

Hmm.

-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue May 19 04:00:16 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:00:16 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: Message from Philip Pemberton <lists@philpem.me.uk> 
	of "Tue, 19 May 2009 00:50:20 BST." <4A11F43C.1010306@philpem.me.uk> 
Message-ID: <20090519040017.4ADF2BCE7@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


lists at philpem.me.uk said:
>>> Interesting that the three receivers with issues were all SiRF III
>>> based. Do  you know what firmware these were running? 
 
>> Nope.  If you know the recipe to find out, I'll ask them.  :)
 
> Failing that, the "sirfmon" app that comes with gpsd might get the
> receiver  into binary mode and should let you talk to it, but I
> haven't used it. 

Thanks.  That works for me.

I started collecting low cost GPS receivers a year or two ago.  I thought I 
had some with the SiRF-II chips.  Either I can't find them or I didn't 
actually get any.

  GSW3.2.4_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.00a  GlobalSat BU-353

  GSW3.2.2_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.01a  AmbiCom GPS-USB Rev 2.1
  GSW3.2.2_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.01a  Navibe GM-720

  GSW3.2.4Pat2_3.1.00.12-SDK001P1.00  Navisys GR-300

The first 3 are "GPS mice", small with long USB tails.  The last one is a 
Thumb/Dongle, only a bit bigger than the typical USB Flash drive.

They all use the Prolific PL2303 serial-to-USB chip.


In case nobody hasn't noticed, the price for simple GPS "mice" has been 
dropping.  It's easy to find them advertised for under $40.  Unfortunately, I 
haven't been able to get good time out of the USB versions.  The old Garmin 
GPS-18-USB was actually pretty good.  The new 18x isn't very good.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From perseidjh at hotmail.com  Tue May 19 02:49:09 2009
From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall)
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:49:09 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
Message-ID: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>

I'm looking to buy either an HP 5370B or SR620 counter.  I can probably get the HP unit for less money but don't mind paying more if the SR counter is definitely better for Time Nuts type measurements (e.g. Allen Deviation).

Thanks!

Jim Hall W4TVI

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue May 19 07:53:16 2009
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:53:16 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com> <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:09:07 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> In message <4A0EBDEE.2020703 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:
> 
> >A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.
> 
> Well, no.
> 
> But figuring out correct handling of time is a challenge for operating
> system programmers.

Out of pure interest: what makes handling of time difficult?

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue May 19 08:22:31 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:22:31 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 May 2009 09:53:16 +0200."
	<20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila@kinali.ch> 
Message-ID: <13568.1242721351@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali writes:
>On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:09:07 +0000

>Out of pure interest: what makes handling of time difficult?

That people don't think about it the right way.

I think the biggest challenge for people to wrap their head around,
is that you can and should use a binary fraction instead of a decimal
fraction.

People are so used to thinking about milli-, micro- and nanoseconds
that they simply fail to recognize those as presentation formats for
an underlying real number.

Time is, for all we know, a continuous scale, it does not come in
small countable parcels, so the correct and ideal format is a
floating point format, not a fixed point format.

Time values have about 20 significant decimal places in regular
computer operation these days: subtracting two nanosecond resolution
timestamps will get you there, because of our choice of epoch for
time_t.

That _almost_ fits into a 64 bit integer in 32.32 format, even if
you choose to do the decimal fraction stupidity and let the fraction
count nanoseconds.

NTP does that or example.

However, we run out of seconds in slightly less than 30 years time
that way, NTP can live with that, it's packets are short lived,
but permanent records in an archive can not.

A 33.31 format would buy us a century, still allow us to get
nanoseconds right, but it be computationally inconvenient and
looks messy, so people balk at it.

It would get my vote however because it is the difference between:

	int64_t t0, t1, dt;

	[...]
	dt = t1 - t0;

and
	struct timespec t0, t1, dt;

	[...]
	dt = t0;
	dt.tv_sec -= t1.tv_sec;
	dt.tv_nsec -= t1.tv_nsec;
	if (dt.tv_nsec < 0) {
		dt->tv_sec--;
		dt->tv_nsec += 1000000000;
	}
	/* XXX: still left with a two-component time difference */

The truly long term solution is IEEE 128 bit floating point format,
you can resolve 10000 years to femto-seconds and still have 7 decimal
digits of precsion to play with.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From jim77742 at gmail.com  Tue May 19 09:35:58 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:35:58 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>

I have a 5370B and love it.

It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but what
it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
rack!

And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever any
problems.

Don't underestimate the 5370B!

Regards,

Jim

2009/5/19 Jim Hall <perseidjh at hotmail.com>

> I'm looking to buy either an HP 5370B or SR620 counter.  I can probably get
> the HP unit for less money but don't mind paying more if the SR counter is
> definitely better for Time Nuts type measurements (e.g. Allen Deviation).
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jim Hall W4TVI
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Tue May 19 10:57:28 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:57:28 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>

Jim
I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage Counter 
(HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent website.
I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have yet to 
assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The facilities on the 
5335A seem to be similar.
Roy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Palfreyman" <jim77742 at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620


>I have a 5370B and love it.
>
> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but 
> what
> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
> rack!
>
> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever 
> any
> problems.
>
> Don't underestimate the 5370B!
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
>
> 2009/5/19 Jim Hall <perseidjh at hotmail.com>
>
>> I'm looking to buy either an HP 5370B or SR620 counter.  I can probably 
>> get
>> the HP unit for less money but don't mind paying more if the SR counter 
>> is
>> definitely better for Time Nuts type measurements (e.g. Allen Deviation).
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Jim Hall W4TVI
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From lists at philpem.me.uk  Tue May 19 11:08:37 2009
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:08:37 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <20090519040017.4ADF2BCE7@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090519040017.4ADF2BCE7@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A129335.4010507@philpem.me.uk>

Hal Murray wrote:
> I started collecting low cost GPS receivers a year or two ago.  I thought I 
> had some with the SiRF-II chips.  Either I can't find them or I didn't 
> actually get any.

I've been "collecting" the OEM modules for about the same amount of time. That 
said, I haven't got that many -- a pair of Trimble SVeeSixes with 4.12 
firmware and an Axiom Sandpiper (SiRF2 based). I've just got a pair of Fastrax 
"iTrax" IT321 receivers, which are surface-mount (i.e. solder-down to a PCB) 
receiver modules based on the SiRF3 chipset.

>   GSW3.2.4_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.00a  GlobalSat BU-353
>   GSW3.2.2_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.01a  AmbiCom GPS-USB Rev 2.1
>   GSW3.2.2_3.1.00.12-SDK003P1.01a  Navibe GM-720
>   GSW3.2.4Pat2_3.1.00.12-SDK001P1.00  Navisys GR-300

All of which are running the SiRF 3.2 firmware, so if there is a firmware bug 
in play, they're all going to be doing much the same thing...

> They all use the Prolific PL2303 serial-to-USB chip.

That might be what's causing the timing jitter, especially if there are other 
devices on the USB bus. USB-to-serial chips aren't known for accurate timing 
-- a few of them buffer incoming data and then send it over the USB bus in one 
burst.

That's not to say the SiRF chipset isn't the cause of the error, but it might 
not be the only variable. I'd be tempted to tie a TTL=>RS232 level translator 
to the RXD_IN pin on the PL2303, then connect the output of the translator to 
a spare 'proper' RS232 port on a PC. The timing should be far more accurate 
(though probably not fantastic).

-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From jim77742 at gmail.com  Tue May 19 11:19:45 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:19:45 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905190419x2717b60aw7aa476f1e19a62cd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Roy,

I'm not familiar with the 5335A but when I got advice from this group, the
5370B was definitely the way to go. I'm sure they'll tell you.

It does actually out perform even some modern timers. The only negative is
that it's big and clunky. But *so* well designed. I just wish they made
stuff like this nowadays.

Regards,

Jim

2009/5/19 Roy Phillips <phill.r1 at btinternet.com>

> Jim
> I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage Counter
> (HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent website.
> I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have yet to
> assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The facilities on the
> 5335A seem to be similar.
> Roy
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Palfreyman" <jim77742 at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 10:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
>
>
>
>  I have a 5370B and love it.
>>
>> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but
>> what
>> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
>> rack!
>>
>> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever
>> any
>> problems.
>>
>> Don't underestimate the 5370B!
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jim
>>
>> 2009/5/19 Jim Hall <perseidjh at hotmail.com>
>>
>>  I'm looking to buy either an HP 5370B or SR620 counter.  I can probably
>>> get
>>> the HP unit for less money but don't mind paying more if the SR counter
>>> is
>>> definitely better for Time Nuts type measurements (e.g. Allen Deviation).
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> Jim Hall W4TVI
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 19 12:19:49 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:19:49 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com>

Jim Palfreyman wrote:
> I have a 5370B and love it.
> 
> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but what
> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
> rack!
> 
> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever any
> problems.
> 
> Don't underestimate the 5370B!

I'll take that one step further: Don't underestimate the 5370A!

The 5370A is functionally identical to the 5370B.  It has the same specs as
the 5370B.  It programs with the same feature set as the 5370B.  And, it makes
its readings, and reports its data on HPIB just as fast as the 5370B.  The
only difference between the A and B model is they combined the CPU, RAM and ROM
cards into one, and they made some changes to the circuitry to make manufacture
easier.

-Chuck Harris


From didier at cox.net  Tue May 19 13:46:51 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:46:51 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com>
Message-ID: <54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>

The HP catalog lists the 5370A as capable of 6000 readings/sec in binary
mode, the 5370B is listed as capable of 8000/sec, probably as a result of a
slightly faster processor. Not a significant difference, but there may be
other subtle improvements between the two. The catalog pages are laid out
quite differently for the two instruments, making a comparison difficult.

I have two 5370A but no 5370B, so I cannot comment on practical differences,
beyond the catalog specs.

I am not sure if the 5370B suffers from the "bad socket syndrome" like the
two 5370A I have. I had to replace all the sockets with machined pin sockets
because the instruments would regularly turn on stupid (display frozen)
after a few days of inactivity. I am not sure if it was a tin-whisker
problem or bad contacts, but by judging how hard it was to extract the chips
from the sockets, it was not due to insufficient contact pressure...

This job was made very easy because I have access to excellent PWB rework
tools. The cost of the sockets was nominal, I got them from Mouser I think.

Since the sockets I got are gold plated and I did not pre-tin them to remove
the gold from the solder joint, I expect the instrument to develop problems
due to lead-gold corrosion in some years. Hopefully, I will not care by
then...

Didier KO4BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:20 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
> 
> Jim Palfreyman wrote:
> > I have a 5370B and love it.
> > 
> > It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit 
> itself, but 
> > what it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect 
> > unit for my rack!
> > 
> > And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are 
> > ever any problems.
> > 
> > Don't underestimate the 5370B!
> 
> I'll take that one step further: Don't underestimate the 5370A!
> 
> The 5370A is functionally identical to the 5370B.  It has the 
> same specs as the 5370B.  It programs with the same feature 
> set as the 5370B.  And, it makes its readings, and reports 
> its data on HPIB just as fast as the 5370B.  The only 
> difference between the A and B model is they combined the 
> CPU, RAM and ROM cards into one, and they made some changes 
> to the circuitry to make manufacture easier.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, 
> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From peterawson at earthlink.net  Tue May 19 14:27:37 2009
From: peterawson at earthlink.net (Pete)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:27:37 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
Message-ID: <32A68004807A48338E70F24739F52D0B@BASE1>

Roy,

The 5370s have a few quirks that you should know about to avoid
possible surprises. These aren't newly discovered & have been the
subject of various postings a few years ago.

1) Both instruments have some front end coupling with the data path
    & the timebase. This was mostly corrected in the 5370B. 

2) Both instruments have a low level issue with non-linearity of the
    interpolator which provides the ~20ps resolution.

The result of these imperfections is jitter readings taken on the 
reference output signal (this is used in performance verification)
will display the lowest readings you'll ever see. Real world signals
locked to this source behave the same way. These readings are
satisfying, but not real. When H-P spec'd the jitter floor at 30-
35ps, that's the true performance limit. Still quite good by any
measure.

Another candidate counter you should check out is the Fluke/
Pendulum PM6681. These aren't common, but sometimes are
on *bay for reasonable ($500-600) prices. This is a much 
more versatile instrument than the 5370s with lower front end
noise, thus somewhat better jitter floor.

Regards,
Pete Rawson


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue May 19 14:52:41 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:52:41 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 19 May 2009 08:46:51 EST."
	<54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400> 
Message-ID: <21769.1242744761@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90 at d400>, Didier Juges writes:

>I have two 5370A but no 5370B, so I cannot comment on practical differences,
>beyond the catalog specs.

I belive there is a difference in the input circuitry also, I recall
that the B has a more capable input section than the A.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Tue May 19 14:58:23 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:58:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <32A68004807A48338E70F24739F52D0B@BASE1>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com><0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
	<32A68004807A48338E70F24739F52D0B@BASE1>
Message-ID: <E4E9519CBEBF47A9A63676D4B8561285@LapTop>

Pete
Thanks for the information.
Regards
Roy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pete" <peterawson at earthlink.net>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:27 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620


> Roy,
>
> The 5370s have a few quirks that you should know about to avoid
> possible surprises. These aren't newly discovered & have been the
> subject of various postings a few years ago.
>
> 1) Both instruments have some front end coupling with the data path
>    & the timebase. This was mostly corrected in the 5370B.
> 2) Both instruments have a low level issue with non-linearity of the
>    interpolator which provides the ~20ps resolution.
>
> The result of these imperfections is jitter readings taken on the 
> reference output signal (this is used in performance verification)
> will display the lowest readings you'll ever see. Real world signals
> locked to this source behave the same way. These readings are
> satisfying, but not real. When H-P spec'd the jitter floor at 30-
> 35ps, that's the true performance limit. Still quite good by any
> measure.
>
> Another candidate counter you should check out is the Fluke/
> Pendulum PM6681. These aren't common, but sometimes are
> on *bay for reasonable ($500-600) prices. This is a much more versatile 
> instrument than the 5370s with lower front end
> noise, thus somewhat better jitter floor.
>
> Regards,
> Pete Rawson
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From imp at bsdimp.com  Tue May 19 15:18:34 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:18:34 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila@kinali.ch>
References: <4A0EBDEE.2020703@erols.com> <76906.1242486547@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <20090519.091834.188222214.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila at kinali.ch>
            Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> writes:
: On Sat, 16 May 2009 15:09:07 +0000
: "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
: 
: > In message <4A0EBDEE.2020703 at erols.com>, Chuck Harris writes:
: > 
: > >A "watch" isn't exactly a challenge to an operating system.
: > 
: > Well, no.
: > 
: > But figuring out correct handling of time is a challenge for operating
: > system programmers.
: 
: Out of pure interest: what makes handling of time difficult?
: >From an uneducated point of view it's just updating a counter
: >From an uneducated point of view it's just updating a counter
: in software from a time source in hardware.

Simple, naive time keeping is easy.  Look at all the folks that make
wrist watches.

However, when you are trying to get higher and higher accuracy for the
time, you have to talk to external folks.  Doing this introduces
latency.  There's variation in this latency, and that limits the
synchronization of the times.  Also, there are a number of
environmental factors that affect the quality of the underlying time
keeping hardware since most crystals are sensitive to temperature.

Warner


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue May 19 19:58:00 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:58:00 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: Message from Philip Pemberton <lists@philpem.me.uk> 
	of "Tue, 19 May 2009 12:08:37 BST." <4A129335.4010507@philpem.me.uk> 
Message-ID: <20090519195801.4E18CBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


lists at philpem.me.uk said:
> All of which are running the SiRF 3.2 firmware, so if there is a
> firmware bug  in play, they're all going to be doing much the same
> thing... 

I'm pretty sure that all the SiRF units I was watching had essentially the 
same behavior, and that included one using RS-232 without USB.


> They all use the Prolific PL2303 serial-to-USB chip.
> That might be what's causing the timing jitter, especially if there
> are other  devices on the USB bus. USB-to-serial chips aren't known
> for accurate timing  -- a few of them buffer incoming data and then
> send it over the USB bus in one  burst. 

USB has a bad reputation, but I think it's way way overblown.  Yes, it's 
polled, but that polling is done in hardware and the time scale is 1 ms.  If 
you are satisfied with an accuracy of a few 10s of ms, USB works fine.  The 
problem is the GPS unit.

I did the experiment of running one GPS unit through a splitter into a serial 
port and also into a serial-USB converter and into a USB port.  Mostly, what 
it showed was that the low-latency serial port option on that system was 
broken.  USB was much better than the serial port.  :)

Here is a graph of the offset ntpd sees from a Garmin GPS-18-USB.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPS18USB-off.gif
peak-peak is under 20 ms so it's possible to get that sort of timing using 
USB.


The real problem with the SiRF chips (and Garmin 18x) is that there is a 
large low frequency component in the noise/jitter.  I'd call it wander rathre 
than jitter to emphasize the low frequency nature.  It's hard to filter that 
out when the clock you are trying to correct has temperature changes which 
happen much faster than that.  Typical numbers are 100 ms wander over a 
period of 12-24 hours.
  http://www.megapathdsl.net/~hmurray/ntp/GPSSiRF-off.gif

It might be fun to see if you can get good results on a box with a stable 
clock using one of these chips.  I'm thinking of a very long time constant on 
the PLL filter.  But how long?  See the old discussions about hanging 
bridges.  So maybe the goal should be to build a hanging-bridge detector.  :)



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From rrezaian at motorola.com  Tue May 19 20:15:39 2009
From: rrezaian at motorola.com (Russell Rezaian)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:15:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <20090519195801.4E18CBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090519195801.4E18CBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <p06240802c638c1537a6b@[160.48.58.237]>

At 12:58 PM -0700 2009/05/19, Hal Murray wrote:
>USB has a bad reputation, but I think it's way way overblown.  Yes, it's
>polled, but that polling is done in hardware and the time scale is 1 ms.  If
>you are satisfied with an accuracy of a few 10s of ms, USB works fine.  The
>problem is the GPS unit.

And I can confirm that for my very un-scientific experiments I do get 
a pretty consistent time sync around 1 MS plus or minus mark from a 
USB serial port adapter in best case conditions.  That's with no 
special work on a pretty stock consumer grade computer with an off 
the shelf USB to serial port.

Even my worst case machine where I expect horrible USB performance 
(busy USB 1.x port with other devices, and a CPU that runs at 100% 
busy for extended periods of time) I find I things never seem to go 
worse than +-50 ms.  Not great, but much better than I was expecting 
based on some of the things I had read.

All my tests done with a time oriented GPS receiver.
--
Russell


From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 19 20:52:00 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:52:00 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com>
	<54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>
Message-ID: <4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>

According to the 1986 catalog, the 5370B is capable of 6000 readings per sec
in the fast binary mode.

According to the 1983 catalog, the 5370A is capable of 6000 readings per sec
in the fast binary mode.

In 1992, they upped the spec to say: "up to 8000 readings per second" in the
fast binary mode.

I find it interesting that for the 5370A, they say 6000 readings per second, and
the 5370B they say "up to 8000 readings per second".

As to the socket issue, my 5370A has been dead reliable.  No problems at
anytime.

I think your socket issue is unique to your unit, or perhaps the series your
unit came from.

-Chuck Harris

Didier Juges wrote:
> The HP catalog lists the 5370A as capable of 6000 readings/sec in binary
> mode, the 5370B is listed as capable of 8000/sec, probably as a result of a
> slightly faster processor. Not a significant difference, but there may be
> other subtle improvements between the two. The catalog pages are laid out
> quite differently for the two instruments, making a comparison difficult.
> 
> I have two 5370A but no 5370B, so I cannot comment on practical differences,
> beyond the catalog specs.
> 
> I am not sure if the 5370B suffers from the "bad socket syndrome" like the
> two 5370A I have. I had to replace all the sockets with machined pin sockets
> because the instruments would regularly turn on stupid (display frozen)
> after a few days of inactivity. I am not sure if it was a tin-whisker
> problem or bad contacts, but by judging how hard it was to extract the chips
> from the sockets, it was not due to insufficient contact pressure...
> 
> This job was made very easy because I have access to excellent PWB rework
> tools. The cost of the sockets was nominal, I got them from Mouser I think.
> 
> Since the sockets I got are gold plated and I did not pre-tin them to remove
> the gold from the solder joint, I expect the instrument to develop problems
> due to lead-gold corrosion in some years. Hopefully, I will not care by
> then...
> 
> Didier KO4BB


From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 19 20:55:15 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:55:15 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <21769.1242744761@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <21769.1242744761@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A131CB3.7040803@erols.com>

Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90 at d400>, Didier Juges writes:
> 
>> I have two 5370A but no 5370B, so I cannot comment on practical differences,
>> beyond the catalog specs.
> 
> I belive there is a difference in the input circuitry also, I recall
> that the B has a more capable input section than the A.

There is a difference, but the specifications remain the same.  I was told
that the difference made manufacture of the 5370B easier.  Probably less need
to select parts.

-Chuck Harris


From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 19 20:58:56 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:58:56 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <32A68004807A48338E70F24739F52D0B@BASE1>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
	<32A68004807A48338E70F24739F52D0B@BASE1>
Message-ID: <4A131D90.1050406@erols.com>

There is an interesting application note on the differential linearity
issue. Apparently the problem was found by a Tektronix engineer, and HP
provided a correction to fix the problem in the 5370A.  That correction,
I believe, is available on Bama.

-Chuck Harris

Pete wrote:
> Roy,
> 
> The 5370s have a few quirks that you should know about to avoid
> possible surprises. These aren't newly discovered & have been the
> subject of various postings a few years ago.
> 
> 1) Both instruments have some front end coupling with the data path
>    & the timebase. This was mostly corrected in the 5370B.
> 2) Both instruments have a low level issue with non-linearity of the
>    interpolator which provides the ~20ps resolution.
> 
> The result of these imperfections is jitter readings taken on the 
> reference output signal (this is used in performance verification)
> will display the lowest readings you'll ever see. Real world signals
> locked to this source behave the same way. These readings are
> satisfying, but not real. When H-P spec'd the jitter floor at 30-
> 35ps, that's the true performance limit. Still quite good by any
> measure.
> 
> Another candidate counter you should check out is the Fluke/
> Pendulum PM6681. These aren't common, but sometimes are
> on *bay for reasonable ($500-600) prices. This is a much more versatile 
> instrument than the 5370s with lower front end
> noise, thus somewhat better jitter floor.
> 
> Regards,
> Pete Rawson
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From jmiles at pop.net  Tue May 19 21:24:02 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 14:24:02 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEPIBEAC.jmiles@pop.net>


> As to the socket issue, my 5370A has been dead reliable.  No problems at
> anytime.
>
> I think your socket issue is unique to your unit, or perhaps the
> series your
> unit came from.

I've heard of socket failures happening on at least one 5370A besides
Didier's, but I don't think it's reached pandemic proportions yet.  Seems
that the socket manufacturers didn't really understand their own reliability
figures back then.  I've been bitten by them myself -- not by my 5370, but
by the Apple II+ I had as a high-school kid, which used similar DIP sockets
on every chip.

My guess is that the gold-plated machined-pin sockets will be fine for the
duration.  The pins probably saw enough tinning during soldering, and if
not, you can just reheat them later if needed.  So far, I've seen problems
with gold-to-copper solder joints only in cases where the rule against
making a physically-stressed solder connection has been violated.  The 8662A
is prone to those problems because HP failed to use pigtails to connect
their SMC center pins to the PC boards.  A bigger problem with the
machined-pin DIP sockets is that they can let go of their chips if subjected
to vibration in some orientations, another fun phenomenon that the
manufacturers don't seem to talk about.

5370s are nice boxes but they can be a challenge to work on.  There are a
couple of editions of the service manual, both apocryphal at best.  One
concern is that the interpolators are hard to calibrate properly without an
8082A pulse generator (read: I'm not sure how you'd even attempt it.)

-- john, KE5FX



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue May 19 23:30:05 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 01:30:05 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A1340FD.6040500@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Jim Palfreyman skrev:
> I have a 5370B and love it.
> 
> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but what
> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
> rack!
> 
> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever any
> problems.
> 
> Don't underestimate the 5370B!

Have you moded your A8 assembly like I did?

Cheers,
Magnus


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue May 19 23:32:54 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 01:32:54 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
Message-ID: <4A1341A6.20406@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Roy Phillips skrev:
> Jim
> I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage Counter 
> (HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent website.
> I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have yet 
> to assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The facilities 
> on the 5335A seem to be similar.

These are two different animals. I like my 5335A for its directness and 
versatility, where as both 5370B and SR-620 takes a litte more bending.

Resolution and jitter wise the 5370B outperforms the 5335A, and the 
SR-620 outperforms the 5370B.

Cheers,
Magnus


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Tue May 19 23:38:27 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:38:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <p06240802c638c1537a6b@[160.48.58.237]>
Message-ID: <C6389103.7E0F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/19/09 1:15 PM, "Russell Rezaian" <rrezaian at motorola.com> wrote:

> At 12:58 PM -0700 2009/05/19, Hal Murray wrote:
>> USB has a bad reputation, but I think it's way way overblown.  Yes, it's
>> polled, but that polling is done in hardware and the time scale is 1 ms.  If
>> you are satisfied with an accuracy of a few 10s of ms, USB works fine.  The
>> problem is the GPS unit.
> 
> And I can confirm that for my very un-scientific experiments I do get
> a pretty consistent time sync around 1 MS plus or minus mark from a
> USB serial port adapter in best case conditions.  That's with no
> special work on a pretty stock consumer grade computer with an off
> the shelf USB to serial port.
> 

I would expect that the basic "frame" timing on USB (without actually
digging out my USB documents, because I'm lazy) is on the order of 125
microseconds (e.g. 8kHz, to support a 8ksps audio stream, just like IEEE1394
does), but that might just be a latency jitter bound.




From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Tue May 19 23:42:38 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:42:38 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A1341A6.20406@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>
	<4A1341A6.20406@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A1343EE.1000307@xtra.co.nz>

Hej Magnus

One issue is that the SR620 is still in production.
Thus obtaining spare parts may be a little easier than for the HP5370A.

Bruce

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Roy Phillips skrev:
>> Jim
>> I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage
>> Counter (HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent
>> website.
>> I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have
>> yet to assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The
>> facilities on the 5335A seem to be similar.
>
> These are two different animals. I like my 5335A for its directness
> and versatility, where as both 5370B and SR-620 takes a litte more
> bending.
>
> Resolution and jitter wise the 5370B outperforms the 5335A, and the
> SR-620 outperforms the 5370B.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus



From jim77742 at gmail.com  Tue May 19 23:52:41 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:41 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A1340FD.6040500@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A1340FD.6040500@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905191652i55b31ac2tb8ae2af842efcc4f@mail.gmail.com>

No I haven't. What does this mod do?

2009/5/20 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>

> Jim Palfreyman skrev:
>
>> I have a 5370B and love it.
>>
>> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but
>> what
>> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
>> rack!
>>
>> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever
>> any
>> problems.
>>
>> Don't underestimate the 5370B!
>>
>
> Have you moded your A8 assembly like I did?
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Tue May 19 23:53:37 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:53:37 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEPIBEAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEPIBEAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <4A134681.8080508@erols.com>

Hi John,

I know that socket problems in the 1970's could be a real
bear, but most of them started very early in the life of
the product.  For instance, I had heard about smacking
Apple I memory on the table to fix problems by the time
they had been out for only a couple of years.

Maybe my 5370A already has replacement sockets?  I'd have
to look, but since it is working reliably, I am not feeling
really inclined to de-rack it to check.

I have used gold plated machined-pin sockets for many years,
and never saw a failure due to the gold/solder interface.
I am certain that to some degree the problem is real, but
it is also not real most of the time.  Stressed joints are
certain to be a contributing factor.

If you look carefully at the augat machine-tool sockets, you
will likely notice that there is a tunnel that runs under the
socket so that you can strap the IC into the socket.  A good
idea much of the time.  I have never had a plastic packaged
IC fall out under any circumstances, but I can see where the
more massive ceramic packages (eg. 5400 TTL) might be a real
problem.

It always bothered me a little bit how the fingers in a machined
pin socket are not in any way aligned with the faces of the IC
pin.  They are clearly designed for a round pin!  ... and are
being used on a square pin with random orientation.  Probably
not an ideal situation.

When I bought my 5370A, I also bought an 8082A so that I could
service it.  The 8082A is about the only generator that is up
to the task.

It was a major disappointment when the 5370A turned out to be
working well, and in specification.  Hopefully it will drift
out so I can put in the differential linearity modification,
and calibrate the beast... in the mean time I will just use
it.

-Chuck Harris

John Miles wrote:
>> As to the socket issue, my 5370A has been dead reliable.  No problems at
>> anytime.
>>
>> I think your socket issue is unique to your unit, or perhaps the
>> series your
>> unit came from.
> 
> I've heard of socket failures happening on at least one 5370A besides
> Didier's, but I don't think it's reached pandemic proportions yet.  Seems
> that the socket manufacturers didn't really understand their own reliability
> figures back then.  I've been bitten by them myself -- not by my 5370, but
> by the Apple II+ I had as a high-school kid, which used similar DIP sockets
> on every chip.
> 
> My guess is that the gold-plated machined-pin sockets will be fine for the
> duration.  The pins probably saw enough tinning during soldering, and if
> not, you can just reheat them later if needed.  So far, I've seen problems
> with gold-to-copper solder joints only in cases where the rule against
> making a physically-stressed solder connection has been violated.  The 8662A
> is prone to those problems because HP failed to use pigtails to connect
> their SMC center pins to the PC boards.  A bigger problem with the
> machined-pin DIP sockets is that they can let go of their chips if subjected
> to vibration in some orientations, another fun phenomenon that the
> manufacturers don't seem to talk about.
> 
> 5370s are nice boxes but they can be a challenge to work on.  There are a
> couple of editions of the service manual, both apocryphal at best.  One
> concern is that the interpolators are hard to calibrate properly without an
> 8082A pulse generator (read: I'm not sure how you'd even attempt it.)
> 
> -- john, KE5FX


From marks at twotoe.com  Wed May 20 00:17:22 2009
From: marks at twotoe.com (Mark C Stephens)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:17:22 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Socket Failure
Message-ID: <000001c9d8e0$58a71a70$09f54f50$@com>

Dear All,

 

 

When I bought my 5370B it was advertised as faulty; would not start, garbage
on the display.

 

After Reseating the EPROMS, the 5370b worked again.

 

However, The sockets will probably need replacing sooner or later.

 

If you get the chance to snap up one of these great instruments, do so, even
if it's just for historical value.

 

Needless to say they are built like tanks, quite accurate and easy to fix.

 

 

Best regards,

Mark

VK2HMC

 


From didier at cox.net  Wed May 20 00:19:17 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:19:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com><54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>
	<4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>
Message-ID: <92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>

One is S/N 2128A01306 and the other is S/N 2213A01361, so they were quite a
bit apart.

I have heard of several units with similar problem, on this mailing list in
particular, which is the reason that prompted me to suspect the sockets in
the first place. I do not think the problem was isolated.

It is quite possible that the history of these particular units (possibly
stored in less than ideal conditions) exacerbated the problem. Tin wiskers
have the well deserved reputation of seemingly random occurrence, and socket
issues in general, other than tin wiskers, are very environment dependant.

Regarding gold-lead issues, I have only seen that problem (quite
extensively) in military hardware that operates undre extreme conditions of
temperature and humidity. Way back, we had to retrofit over 100 expensive
pieces of equipment because of that. I have never seen it any other place. I
am not worried, but I thought I would mention it. Most commercial hardware
now avoids gold anyhow because of cost. Military specs require to remove the
gold from the solder area by pre-tinning in a solder pot, which has to be
replaced regularly.

Didier KO4BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 3:52 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
> 
.....
>
> I think your socket issue is unique to your unit, or perhaps 
> the series your unit came from.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed May 20 00:42:12 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 02:42:12 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A1343EE.1000307@xtra.co.nz>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop>	<4A1341A6.20406@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<4A1343EE.1000307@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4A1351E4.7080905@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Bruce Griffiths skrev:
> Hej Magnus
> 
> One issue is that the SR620 is still in production.
> Thus obtaining spare parts may be a little easier than for the HP5370A.

Also, most of the parts for a SR620 is stock parts and not very hard to 
come by. The oscillator-circuits in the 5370A/B is much harder to find.

Cheers,
Magnus

> Bruce
> 
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Roy Phillips skrev:
>>> Jim
>>> I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage
>>> Counter (HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent
>>> website.
>>> I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have
>>> yet to assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The
>>> facilities on the 5335A seem to be similar.
>> These are two different animals. I like my 5335A for its directness
>> and versatility, where as both 5370B and SR-620 takes a litte more
>> bending.
>>
>> Resolution and jitter wise the 5370B outperforms the 5335A, and the
>> SR-620 outperforms the 5370B.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed May 20 00:44:44 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 02:44:44 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905191652i55b31ac2tb8ae2af842efcc4f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A1340FD.6040500@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<f616e0f80905191652i55b31ac2tb8ae2af842efcc4f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A13527C.8020706@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Jim Palfreyman skrev:
> No I haven't. What does this mod do?

Disabling the 10 MHz presence detector that spews out wideband 5 MHz and 
lots of overtone noise on among other things the 10 MHz output.

I did a very simple short which brings one of the transistors out of 
bias and thus disabling the detector. All the detector does is to lit a 
LED for you when you have the hood open to do maintainence, so it is 
fairly safe to do it.

Cheers,
Magnus

> 2009/5/20 Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> 
>> Jim Palfreyman skrev:
>>
>>> I have a 5370B and love it.
>>>
>>> It's big, and postage to Australia was as much as the unit itself, but
>>> what
>>> it can do - especially given its vintage - makes it a perfect unit for my
>>> rack!
>>>
>>> And the manual (plus people here) make it really great if there are ever
>>> any
>>> problems.
>>>
>>> Don't underestimate the 5370B!
>>>
>> Have you moded your A8 assembly like I did?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed May 20 00:48:33 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 02:48:33 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com><54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>	<4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>
	<92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A135361.8010408@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Didier skrev:
> One is S/N 2128A01306 and the other is S/N 2213A01361, so they were quite a
> bit apart.
> 
> I have heard of several units with similar problem, on this mailing list in
> particular, which is the reason that prompted me to suspect the sockets in
> the first place. I do not think the problem was isolated.
> 
> It is quite possible that the history of these particular units (possibly
> stored in less than ideal conditions) exacerbated the problem. Tin wiskers
> have the well deserved reputation of seemingly random occurrence, and socket
> issues in general, other than tin wiskers, are very environment dependant.
> 
> Regarding gold-lead issues, I have only seen that problem (quite
> extensively) in military hardware that operates undre extreme conditions of
> temperature and humidity. Way back, we had to retrofit over 100 expensive
> pieces of equipment because of that. I have never seen it any other place. I
> am not worried, but I thought I would mention it. Most commercial hardware
> now avoids gold anyhow because of cost. Military specs require to remove the
> gold from the solder area by pre-tinning in a solder pot, which has to be
> replaced regularly.

We have had one issue at one time with gold. It only occured due to a 
particular batch of boards having way too much gold in them. All other 
boards have been without problems and none of all our boxes in the field 
have not given any indication of a problem over the years.

While not running extreme temperatures, for our more normally 
temperatures gear, using gold have not been a problem.

Cheers,
Magnus


From cfharris at erols.com  Wed May 20 00:51:41 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:51:41 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com><54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>	<4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com>
	<92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A13541D.3020306@erols.com>

Hi Didier,

I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old TI sockets.  They may, or
may not be gold (I didn't look that carefully).  My unit is S/N 2217A01399,
so it sits in the middle of your two units.

I know that my unit is special (because it is mine, of course ;-), but I just
don't think it is all *that* special.  I have seen the same TI sockets used on
so many different instruments --I would bet more than half the stuff in my
shop has them--  They seem to work more often than not.

-Chuck Harris

Didier wrote:
> One is S/N 2128A01306 and the other is S/N 2213A01361, so they were quite a
> bit apart.
> 
> I have heard of several units with similar problem, on this mailing list in
> particular, which is the reason that prompted me to suspect the sockets in
> the first place. I do not think the problem was isolated.
>


From didier at cox.net  Wed May 20 01:47:19 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 20:47:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <4A13541D.3020306@erols.com>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com><54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>	<4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com><92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>
	<4A13541D.3020306@erols.com>
Message-ID: <423D7AAB064843D98C0D70A6910603EB@didierhp>

Hi Chuck,

I agree, I could not see anything obvious that would indicate these
particular sockets would cause problems, other than they certainly looked
cheap, even considering the date of manufacture. The contact pressure was
quite considerable, based on how hard it was to pull the chips out, so it
probably was not a bad contact between the socket and the pins. There are a
bunch of chips on sockets, and I never tried to find out if a particular
chip was causing the problem. I replaced all the sockets (except the PAL, I
did not have a socket for him.)

The good news is that the PWB has very thin traces (requiring little heat),
and the holes are fairly wide, so unsoldering the sockets was a piece of
cake, with the right tool. I did each unit in about 30 minutes, all
included. The easiest was to remove the plastic part of the socket BEFORE
unsoldering the contacts. It comes off easily when you pull on it. Then each
contact can be removed individually with minimum stress on the board.

One of my two units had evidence of having been in uncontrolled storage for
at least some time before I got it. The case was very dirty, inside the unit
was dusty but relatively clean. The other was relatively clean inside and
out.

One thing for sure, is that until I replaced the sockets, the units would
only work a few days at a time, and wiggling and reseating the PROMs would
fix the problem each time, until next time.

Didier

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:52 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> 
> Hi Didier,
> 
> I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old TI sockets.  
> They may, or may not be gold (I didn't look that carefully).  
> My unit is S/N 2217A01399, so it sits in the middle of your two units.
> 
> I know that my unit is special (because it is mine, of course 
> ;-), but I just don't think it is all *that* special.  I have 
> seen the same TI sockets used on so many different 
> instruments --I would bet more than half the stuff in my shop 
> has them--  They seem to work more often than not.
> 
> -Chuck Harris



From richard at karlquist.com  Wed May 20 01:55:39 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 18:55:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d8e0$58a71a70$09f54f50$@com>
References: <000001c9d8e0$58a71a70$09f54f50$@com>
Message-ID: <b61530b6b7a53f48d271c396da2db728.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>

After 46 years at HP/Agilent, Dave Chu, the father of the 5370 series
has retired.  It is nice to see Time Nuts keeping these wonderful
instruments going.

Rick Karlquist N6RK



From jmiles at pop.net  Wed May 20 02:21:25 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 19:21:25 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
In-Reply-To: <b61530b6b7a53f48d271c396da2db728.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJAEBJBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>

Not to mention his work with the 5345A, another perennial favorite around
here.  /raises beer

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:56 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
>
>
> After 46 years at HP/Agilent, Dave Chu, the father of the 5370 series
> has retired.  It is nice to see Time Nuts keeping these wonderful
> instruments going.
>
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
>
>



From perseidjh at hotmail.com  Wed May 20 03:12:48 2009
From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:12:48 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] HP5370B vs SR620
Message-ID: <BAY105-DS5701B8097EEF2365C0FE9B1580@phx.gbl>

Hey Time Nuts,

Thanks for all the great information and discussion on the HP5370B vs SR620.  Based on the inputs, I'm going for an HP5370 (A or B).  I always wanted one anyway!

Jim Hall W4TVI

From jim77742 at gmail.com  Wed May 20 03:26:39 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:26:39 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJAEBJBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <b61530b6b7a53f48d271c396da2db728.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
	<PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJAEBJBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905192026g28a7025aydd2f9d14b98a73fd@mail.gmail.com>

Now he has some time (hah!) on his hands...get him to join our group!!

2009/5/20 John Miles <jmiles at pop.net>

> Not to mention his work with the 5345A, another perennial favorite around
> here.  /raises beer
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> > Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:56 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
> >
> >
> > After 46 years at HP/Agilent, Dave Chu, the father of the 5370 series
> > has retired.  It is nice to see Time Nuts keeping these wonderful
> > instruments going.
> >
> > Rick Karlquist N6RK
> >
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cfharris at erols.com  Wed May 20 03:57:52 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:57:52 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905192026g28a7025aydd2f9d14b98a73fd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b61530b6b7a53f48d271c396da2db728.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>	<PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJAEBJBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
	<f616e0f80905192026g28a7025aydd2f9d14b98a73fd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A137FC0.1010503@erols.com>

I second that suggestion!

-Chuck Harris

Jim Palfreyman wrote:
> Now he has some time (hah!) on his hands...get him to join our group!!
> 
> 2009/5/20 John Miles <jmiles at pop.net>
> 
>> Not to mention his work with the 5345A, another perennial favorite around
>> here.  /raises beer
>>
>> -- john, KE5FX
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>>> Behalf Of Rick Karlquist
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 6:56 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] 5370B Designer Dave Chu retires from Agilent
>>>
>>>
>>> After 46 years at HP/Agilent, Dave Chu, the father of the 5370 series
>>> has retired.  It is nice to see Time Nuts keeping these wonderful
>>> instruments going.
>>>
>>> Rick Karlquist N6RK


From cfharris at erols.com  Wed May 20 04:06:49 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 00:06:49 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <423D7AAB064843D98C0D70A6910603EB@didierhp>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl><f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<4A12A3E5.2070909@erols.com><54D2D91A9DD3422B80F4F02DE65E9C90@d400>	<4A131BF0.8020106@erols.com><92A4223B3B5741209F68D80F79EEA184@didierhp>	<4A13541D.3020306@erols.com>
	<423D7AAB064843D98C0D70A6910603EB@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A1381D9.7060208@erols.com>

Hi Didier,

I have never doubted for one moment that the sockets were causing
your problems, I just wonder how prevalent the failure is in the
universe of 5370's.  I have HP equipment that is both newer and
older than my 5370A, that has the same sockets.  It would not
surprise me at all to find the 5370B has the same exact sockets
too.

Double sided boards are a treat to work on with desoldering
equipment.  Multilayer boards suck up so much heat that they
are a real problem.  It helps to cook them on an IR preheater for
a while before removing parts.

-Chuck Harris

Didier wrote:
> Hi Chuck,
> 
> I agree, I could not see anything obvious that would indicate these
> particular sockets would cause problems, other than they certainly looked
> cheap, even considering the date of manufacture. The contact pressure was
> quite considerable, based on how hard it was to pull the chips out, so it
> probably was not a bad contact between the socket and the pins. There are a
> bunch of chips on sockets, and I never tried to find out if a particular
> chip was causing the problem. I replaced all the sockets (except the PAL, I
> did not have a socket for him.)
> 
> The good news is that the PWB has very thin traces (requiring little heat),
> and the holes are fairly wide, so unsoldering the sockets was a piece of
> cake, with the right tool. I did each unit in about 30 minutes, all
> included. The easiest was to remove the plastic part of the socket BEFORE
> unsoldering the contacts. It comes off easily when you pull on it. Then each
> contact can be removed individually with minimum stress on the board.
> 
> One of my two units had evidence of having been in uncontrolled storage for
> at least some time before I got it. The case was very dirty, inside the unit
> was dusty but relatively clean. The other was relatively clean inside and
> out.
> 
> One thing for sure, is that until I replaced the sockets, the units would
> only work a few days at a time, and wiggling and reseating the PROMs would
> fix the problem each time, until next time.
> 
> Didier
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:52 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
>>
>> Hi Didier,
>>
>> I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old TI sockets.  
>> They may, or may not be gold (I didn't look that carefully).  
>> My unit is S/N 2217A01399, so it sits in the middle of your two units.
>>
>> I know that my unit is special (because it is mine, of course 
>> ;-), but I just don't think it is all *that* special.  I have 
>> seen the same TI sockets used on so many different 
>> instruments --I would bet more than half the stuff in my shop 
>> has them--  They seem to work more often than not.
>>
>> -Chuck Harris
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From imp at bsdimp.com  Wed May 20 05:05:57 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:05:57 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Msg to N.Z. time nuts
In-Reply-To: <C6389103.7E0F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <p06240802c638c1537a6b@[160.48.58.237]>
	<C6389103.7E0F%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <20090519.230557.114733561.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <C6389103.7E0F%James.P.Lux at jpl.nasa.gov>
            "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
: 
: 
: 
: On 5/19/09 1:15 PM, "Russell Rezaian" <rrezaian at motorola.com> wrote:
: 
: > At 12:58 PM -0700 2009/05/19, Hal Murray wrote:
: >> USB has a bad reputation, but I think it's way way overblown.  Yes, it's
: >> polled, but that polling is done in hardware and the time scale is 1 ms.  If
: >> you are satisfied with an accuracy of a few 10s of ms, USB works fine.  The
: >> problem is the GPS unit.
: > 
: > And I can confirm that for my very un-scientific experiments I do get
: > a pretty consistent time sync around 1 MS plus or minus mark from a
: > USB serial port adapter in best case conditions.  That's with no
: > special work on a pretty stock consumer grade computer with an off
: > the shelf USB to serial port.
: > 
: 
: I would expect that the basic "frame" timing on USB (without actually
: digging out my USB documents, because I'm lazy) is on the order of 125
: microseconds (e.g. 8kHz, to support a 8ksps audio stream, just like IEEE1394
: does), but that might just be a latency jitter bound.

Well, Yes and No.

Yes, you can get frames that fast in isochronous mode, but most host
adapters have buffering and queue things up to be dealt with on ~1ms
boundaries.  And serial port modem control pin status change messages
aren't isochronous transfers.

Warner


From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Wed May 20 06:58:19 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 06:58:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
Message-ID: <792854.95566.qm@web27107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi,
I've not seen socket problems on my 5370B, but have with other equipment. The TI leaf contact sockets seem to be the worst. I've often wondered if it's a plating compatability issue. Small differences in plating composition might be causing problems. Retention force is not an issue as noted, but high retention could be caused by corrosion. Often just shifting the IC's in their sockets will effect a short term cure. For a cheap (slightly)longer term fix, wipe the IC pins with a swab moistened with WD40! 

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Wed, 20/5/09, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:

> From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 5:06 AM
> Hi Didier,
> 
> I have never doubted for one moment that the sockets were
> causing
> your problems, I just wonder how prevalent the failure is
> in the
> universe of 5370's.? I have HP equipment that is both
> newer and
> older than my 5370A, that has the same sockets.? It
> would not
> surprise me at all to find the 5370B has the same exact
> sockets
> too.
> 
> Double sided boards are a treat to work on with
> desoldering
> equipment.? Multilayer boards suck up so much heat
> that they
> are a real problem.? It helps to cook them on an IR
> preheater for
> a while before removing parts.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> Didier wrote:
> > Hi Chuck,
> > 
> > I agree, I could not see anything obvious that would
> indicate these
> > particular sockets would cause problems, other than
> they certainly looked
> > cheap, even considering the date of manufacture. The
> contact pressure was
> > quite considerable, based on how hard it was to pull
> the chips out, so it
> > probably was not a bad contact between the socket and
> the pins. There are a
> > bunch of chips on sockets, and I never tried to find
> out if a particular
> > chip was causing the problem. I replaced all the
> sockets (except the PAL, I
> > did not have a socket for him.)
> > 
> > The good news is that the PWB has very thin traces
> (requiring little heat),
> > and the holes are fairly wide, so unsoldering the
> sockets was a piece of
> > cake, with the right tool. I did each unit in about 30
> minutes, all
> > included. The easiest was to remove the plastic part
> of the socket BEFORE
> > unsoldering the contacts. It comes off easily when you
> pull on it. Then each
> > contact can be removed individually with minimum
> stress on the board.
> > 
> > One of my two units had evidence of having been in
> uncontrolled storage for
> > at least some time before I got it. The case was very
> dirty, inside the unit
> > was dusty but relatively clean. The other was
> relatively clean inside and
> > out.
> > 
> > One thing for sure, is that until I replaced the
> sockets, the units would
> > only work a few days at a time, and wiggling and
> reseating the PROMs would
> > fix the problem each time, until next time.
> > 
> > Didier
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
> On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:52 PM
> >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
> measurement
> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> >> 
> >> Hi Didier,
> >> 
> >> I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old
> TI sockets.? They may, or may not be gold (I didn't
> look that carefully).? My unit is S/N 2217A01399, so it
> sits in the middle of your two units.
> >> 
> >> I know that my unit is special (because it is
> mine, of course ;-), but I just don't think it is all *that*
> special.? I have seen the same TI sockets used on so
> many different instruments --I would bet more than half the
> stuff in my shop has them--? They seem to work more
> often than not.
> >> 
> >> -Chuck Harris
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de  Wed May 20 07:23:45 2009
From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:23:45 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <792854.95566.qm@web27107.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <07EA20BA467C4756BC3B2077ED31ED8E@athlon>

> For a cheap (slightly)longer term fix, wipe the IC pins 
> with a swab moistened with WD40! 

BALLISTOL is also recommended for that job.

Best regards
Ulrich Bangert

> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Robert Atkinson
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2009 08:58
> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> I've not seen socket problems on my 5370B, but have with 
> other equipment. The TI leaf contact sockets seem to be the 
> worst. I've often wondered if it's a plating compatability 
> issue. Small differences in plating composition might be 
> causing problems. Retention force is not an issue as noted, 
> but high retention could be caused by corrosion. Often just 
> shifting the IC's in their sockets will effect a short term 
> cure. For a cheap (slightly)longer term fix, wipe the IC pins 
> with a swab moistened with WD40! 
> 
> Robert G8RPI.
> 
> --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
> 
> > From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> > <time-nuts at febo.com>
> > Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 5:06 AM
> > Hi Didier,
> > 
> > I have never doubted for one moment that the sockets were causing
> > your problems, I just wonder how prevalent the failure is
> > in the
> > universe of 5370's.? I have HP equipment that is both
> > newer and
> > older than my 5370A, that has the same sockets.? It
> > would not
> > surprise me at all to find the 5370B has the same exact
> > sockets
> > too.
> > 
> > Double sided boards are a treat to work on with
> > desoldering
> > equipment.? Multilayer boards suck up so much heat
> > that they
> > are a real problem.? It helps to cook them on an IR
> > preheater for
> > a while before removing parts.
> > 
> > -Chuck Harris
> > 
> > Didier wrote:
> > > Hi Chuck,
> > > 
> > > I agree, I could not see anything obvious that would
> > indicate these
> > > particular sockets would cause problems, other than
> > they certainly looked
> > > cheap, even considering the date of manufacture. The
> > contact pressure was
> > > quite considerable, based on how hard it was to pull
> > the chips out, so it
> > > probably was not a bad contact between the socket and
> > the pins. There are a
> > > bunch of chips on sockets, and I never tried to find
> > out if a particular
> > > chip was causing the problem. I replaced all the
> > sockets (except the PAL, I
> > > did not have a socket for him.)
> > > 
> > > The good news is that the PWB has very thin traces
> > (requiring little heat),
> > > and the holes are fairly wide, so unsoldering the
> > sockets was a piece of
> > > cake, with the right tool. I did each unit in about 30
> > minutes, all
> > > included. The easiest was to remove the plastic part
> > of the socket BEFORE
> > > unsoldering the contacts. It comes off easily when you
> > pull on it. Then each
> > > contact can be removed individually with minimum
> > stress on the board.
> > > 
> > > One of my two units had evidence of having been in
> > uncontrolled storage for
> > > at least some time before I got it. The case was very
> > dirty, inside the unit
> > > was dusty but relatively clean. The other was
> > relatively clean inside and
> > > out.
> > > 
> > > One thing for sure, is that until I replaced the
> > sockets, the units would
> > > only work a few days at a time, and wiggling and
> > reseating the PROMs would
> > > fix the problem each time, until next time.
> > > 
> > > Didier
> > > 
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
> > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:52 PM
> > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
> > measurement
> > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
> > >> 
> > >> Hi Didier,
> > >> 
> > >> I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old
> > TI sockets.? They may, or may not be gold (I didn't
> > look that carefully).? My unit is S/N 2217A01399, so it
> > sits in the middle of your two units.
> > >> 
> > >> I know that my unit is special (because it is
> > mine, of course ;-), but I just don't think it is all 
> *that* special.? 
> > I have seen the same TI sockets used on so many different 
> instruments 
> > --I would bet more than half the stuff in my shop has them--? They 
> > seem to work more often than not.
> > >> 
> > >> -Chuck Harris
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> 
> 
>       
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de  Wed May 20 08:37:57 2009
From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:37:57 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] EZGPIB
Message-ID: <3156B6FA3D0B4F3AAB2BD93F4709556B@athlon>

Gentlemen,

a new version of EZGPIB is available for download at

http://www.ulrich-bangert.de/html/downloads.html

which includes a MRU file list and a print option for the source editor
window that makes use of the color syntax highlighting.

Have fun 

Ulrich Bangert
www.ulrich-bangert.de
Ortholzer Weg 1
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From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr  Wed May 20 08:54:47 2009
From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:54:47 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
Message-ID: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>

Hi The Gang,

I've revitalized my 5070B I got few years ago and since a week or two it has seen again passing into it few electrons after so long... lol...
Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the PC and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.
I've on a dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application. Could you tell me which sw I could use to do this? 
I want to avoid to reivent the wheel by writing another piece of software.

The 5070 (A or B) is really a great piece of hardware, I love it, exept its noisy fan... 

Very good idea to invite Dave Chu to join the group, I'm sure his heart will vibrate to see that his baby is still alive for a very long time... ;-))

Best 73's to all of you.
pf, F5BQP

 

From df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de  Wed May 20 09:07:26 2009
From: df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de (Ulrich Bangert)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:07:26 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>
Message-ID: <6D592D27DBE9444A97BF20F5FC2FCF75@athlon>

Pf,

> I've on a 
> dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application. 
> Could you tell me which sw I could use to do this? 

since you own a French callsign chances are that you are talking about the
SMART488 from ALCIOM. In this case I have no help available. Should you
however talk about a Prologix interface or a National Instruments interface,
then EZGPIB may be helpful to you. Just google for the name to learn more
about it.

73s and my best regards
Ulrich DF6JB

> -----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von 
> Pierre-Francois (f5bqp_pfm)
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2009 10:55
> An: time-nuts at febo.com
> Betreff: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
> 
> 
> Hi The Gang,
> 
> I've revitalized my 5070B I got few years ago and since a 
> week or two it has seen again passing into it few electrons 
> after so long... lol... Now I'm wondering which software I 
> could use to grab data from it to the PC and then to analyze 
> the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium source 
> synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS. I've on a 
> dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application. 
> Could you tell me which sw I could use to do this? 
> I want to avoid to reivent the wheel by writing another piece 
> of software.
> 
> The 5070 (A or B) is really a great piece of hardware, I love 
> it, exept its noisy fan... 
> 
> Very good idea to invite Dave Chu to join the group, I'm sure 
> his heart will vibrate to see that his baby is still alive 
> for a very long time... ;-))
> 
> Best 73's to all of you.
> pf, F5BQP
> 
>  
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Wed May 20 09:16:07 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:16:07 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>
References: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>
Message-ID: <B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7@LapTop>

Hello Pierre-Fran?ois
A point of personal interest in your email  - -  The noise of the fan in the 
5070B, this would appear to be a problem with a number of the older items of 
Hewlett Packard, and other manufacturers.
The items are usually  fitted with a Papst fan,with a high throughput of air 
running from the power line.  Has anybody tried to replace these fans with a 
more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very 
proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large 
volume of air moving through it ? I have an EIP 545 Counter and an HP 5335A 
which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
Any ideas on this.
Roy

 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm)" <pfmonet at wanadoo.fr>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....


> Hi The Gang,
>
> I've revitalized my 5070B I got few years ago and since a week or two it 
> has seen again passing into it few electrons after so long... lol...
> Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the 
> PC and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium 
> source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.
> I've on a dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application. Could 
> you tell me which sw I could use to do this?
> I want to avoid to reivent the wheel by writing another piece of software.
>
> The 5070 (A or B) is really a great piece of hardware, I love it, exept 
> its noisy fan...
>
> Very good idea to invite Dave Chu to join the group, I'm sure his heart 
> will vibrate to see that his baby is still alive for a very long time... 
> ;-))
>
> Best 73's to all of you.
> pf, F5BQP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From henk at deriesp.demon.nl  Wed May 20 09:33:53 2009
From: henk at deriesp.demon.nl (Henk)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:33:53 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
Message-ID: <9703.80.255.246.230.1242812033.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>

Hello,

The Wavecrest DTS uses a large airflow to keep temperature >differences<
small enough for low tempco in the interpolators. This can also be the
case for the hp5370, thus be carefull.

henk

> Hello Pierre-Fran?ois
> A point of personal interest in your email  - -  The noise of the fan in
> the
> 5070B, this would appear to be a problem with a number of the older items
> of
> Hewlett Packard, and other manufacturers.
> The items are usually  fitted with a Papst fan,with a high throughput of
> air
> running from the power line.  Has anybody tried to replace these fans with
> a
> more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
> proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
> volume of air moving through it ? I have an EIP 545 Counter and an HP
> 5335A
> which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
> Any ideas on this.
> Roy
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm)" <pfmonet at wanadoo.fr>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:54 AM
> Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
>
>
>> Hi The Gang,
>>
>> I've revitalized my 5070B I got few years ago and since a week or two it
>> has seen again passing into it few electrons after so long... lol...
>> Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the
>> PC and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium
>> source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.
>> I've on a dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application.
>> Could
>> you tell me which sw I could use to do this?
>> I want to avoid to reivent the wheel by writing another piece of
>> software.
>>
>> The 5070 (A or B) is really a great piece of hardware, I love it, exept
>> its noisy fan...
>>
>> Very good idea to invite Dave Chu to join the group, I'm sure his heart
>> will vibrate to see that his baby is still alive for a very long time...
>> ;-))
>>
>> Best 73's to all of you.
>> pf, F5BQP
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>




From rk at timing-consultants.com  Wed May 20 09:37:37 2009
From: rk at timing-consultants.com (Rob Kimberley)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:37:37 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: <B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7@LapTop>
References: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>
	<B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7@LapTop>
Message-ID: <B52E3D6AD01D4E1DA52DBA139FFE77DB@robinHP>

I don't know this product, but from my past experience if it has a split
primary transformer for switching between 115 and 230 VAC, check to see if
fan is 115VAC. If it is and you run unit on 230VAC, the fan can cause
increased residual noise due to the imbalance. Better to use a 230 VAC fan
if running on that supply.  

Just a thought..

Rob K

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Roy Phillips
Sent: 20 May 2009 10:16
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....

Hello Pierre-Fran?ois
A point of personal interest in your email  - -  The noise of the fan in the
5070B, this would appear to be a problem with a number of the older items of
Hewlett Packard, and other manufacturers.
The items are usually  fitted with a Papst fan,with a high throughput of air
running from the power line.  Has anybody tried to replace these fans with a
more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
volume of air moving through it ? I have an EIP 545 Counter and an HP 5335A
which both have Papst fans and are very noisy Any ideas on this.
Roy

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm)" <pfmonet at wanadoo.fr>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 9:54 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....


> Hi The Gang,
>
> I've revitalized my 5070B I got few years ago and since a week or two it 
> has seen again passing into it few electrons after so long... lol...
> Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the 
> PC and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium 
> source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.
> I've on a dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application. Could

> you tell me which sw I could use to do this?
> I want to avoid to reivent the wheel by writing another piece of software.
>
> The 5070 (A or B) is really a great piece of hardware, I love it, exept 
> its noisy fan...
>
> Very good idea to invite Dave Chu to join the group, I'm sure his heart 
> will vibrate to see that his baby is still alive for a very long time... 
> ;-))
>
> Best 73's to all of you.
> pf, F5BQP
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From jmiles at pop.net  Wed May 20 10:01:41 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 03:01:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: <B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7@LapTop>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>

> Has anybody tried to replace these
> fans with a
> more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
> proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
> volume of air moving through it ?
> I have an EIP 545 Counter and
> an HP 5335A
> which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
> Any ideas on this.
> Roy

The 5370 counters are unusually power-hungry, at about 160 watts for my
5370B.  The airflow through the instrument is where the noise is coming
from, not so much the fan itself (try powering the fan up outside the
counter, holding it in your hand, and it'll be much quieter).  Can't speak
for EIP but I don't think it's a good idea to alter the factory airflow
specs on HP gear, in most cases.

>Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the PC
>and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium
>source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.

I'm not sure it's possible to make continuous stability measurements (Allan
deviation, etc.) directly with a 5370 since they don't support
running/overlapped measurements between readings.  If you can work with a
1-pps output and can provide a divider for your reference, it can be done
with a picket-fence technique (e.g.
http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/papers/picket_uffc.pdf ) which I haven't tried
yet.

If anyone thinks it might be worthwhile, I could throw together a GPIB app
to implement Greenhall's paper for the 5370B with a Prologix or NI board...
but my guess is that most people have been using other gear for that sort of
thing.

-- john, KE5FX



From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr  Wed May 20 11:38:35 2009
From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:38:35 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 45
References: <mailman.1208.1242812264.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <019c01c9d93f$83235e30$4501a8c0@r44>

Hi Ulrich,

Yes I'm frenchy but I use an NI USB/GPIB adaptor I've since a while, not 
this exotic ALCIOM...

Best 73's
pf, F5BQP




>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:07:26 +0200
> From: "Ulrich Bangert" <df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <6D592D27DBE9444A97BF20F5FC2FCF75 at athlon>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Pf,
>
>> I've on a
>> dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application.
>> Could you tell me which sw I could use to do this?
>
> since you own a French callsign chances are that you are talking about the
> SMART488 from ALCIOM. In this case I have no help available. Should you
> however talk about a Prologix interface or a National Instruments 
> interface,
> then EZGPIB may be helpful to you. Just google for the name to learn more
> about it.
>
> 73s and my best regards
> Ulrich DF6JB
>




From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr  Wed May 20 11:45:08 2009
From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:45:08 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 45
References: <mailman.1208.1242812264.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <019f01c9d940$6d4320e0$4501a8c0@r44>

Hello Roy,

Yes these fans from these old mummies are really too noisy.
I've several counters: two EIP 578, this 5370B and an ADVANTEST 5372P, the 
quietest is really the ADVANTEST.
I've also a bunch of other T&M intruments and it's impossible to have all of 
these up and running. Really too noisy.
I've no idea yet but I need to find a solution except having some gum into 
the ears... ;-))

Best 73's
pf, F5BQP



>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:16:07 +0100
> From: "Roy Phillips" <phill.r1 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7 at LapTop>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello Pierre-Fran?ois
> A point of personal interest in your email  - -  The noise of the fan in 
> the
> 5070B, this would appear to be a problem with a number of the older items 
> of
> Hewlett Packard, and other manufacturers.
> The items are usually  fitted with a Papst fan,with a high throughput of 
> air
> running from the power line.  Has anybody tried to replace these fans with 
> a
> more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
> proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
> volume of air moving through it ? I have an EIP 545 Counter and an HP 
> 5335A
> which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
> Any ideas on this.
> Roy
>




From cupido at mail.ua.pt  Wed May 20 11:46:43 2009
From: cupido at mail.ua.pt (Luis Cupido)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:46:43 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts]  5370B yet again
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <4A13EDA3.4000908@mail.ua.pt>


Hi,

I do have a HP5335A and after the many comments
about the 5370 I'm curious if there is something
I'd be better off with the 5370 instead of my 5334
I've read the specs of both but... better ask
the experts ;-)

Luis Cupido.
ct1dmk.


From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Wed May 20 13:04:06 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:04:06 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620
In-Reply-To: <4A1343EE.1000307@xtra.co.nz>
References: <BAY105-DS621DBC001651455B9F5D6B15B0@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905190235s42a64ea1r8762b172a0c7e2e1@mail.gmail.com>	<0319AD2BFBD84AA18AFA32AEB031092B@LapTop><4A1341A6.20406@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<4A1343EE.1000307@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <AE04E7D57FD44979929AD6E28F13B324@LapTop>

Bruce/Magnus
Thank you for your comments.
Roy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bruce Griffiths" <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370B vs SR620


> Hej Magnus
>
> One issue is that the SR620 is still in production.
> Thus obtaining spare parts may be a little easier than for the HP5370A.
>
> Bruce
>
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Roy Phillips skrev:
>>> Jim
>>> I was interested to hear that you are very fond of your vintage
>>> Counter (HP5370B), and I have downloaded the manual from the Agilent
>>> website.
>>> I recently purchased an HP 5335A, again a vintage model, and I have
>>> yet to assess it completely  -  is the 5370B much superior ? The
>>> facilities on the 5335A seem to be similar.
>>
>> These are two different animals. I like my 5335A for its directness
>> and versatility, where as both 5370B and SR-620 takes a litte more
>> bending.
>>
>> Resolution and jitter wise the 5370B outperforms the 5335A, and the
>> SR-620 outperforms the 5370B.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Wed May 20 13:19:03 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:19:03 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
In-Reply-To: <07EA20BA467C4756BC3B2077ED31ED8E@athlon>
Message-ID: <mailman.18.1242825571.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

I think the problem with gold contacts for connector junctions and 
solder connections was already discussed a while ago. 

I have no experience with the mentioned 5370A problem, 
but I may give general remarks out of my experience on similar things.

Gold is a very good but expensive material for removable junctions 
connecting gold to gold surfaces but very bad in conjuction with tin.
The problem  may be very often due to gold leaching

For that case trained persons removed for all the hirel connections in our 
satellite electronics the gold platings using special tinning procedures 
before final soldering. 

But attention, in some cases the gold is plated over nickel, which is 
very bad for solder connections, it will not successfully join together!

There some good informations about it, eg.:
http://www.tkb-4u.com/technical-papers/soldering/soldering-gold-over-nickel
http://www.sem-lab.com/GoldEmbrittlementofSolderJoints.pdf
and
http://www.circuitree.com/Articles/Feature_Article/f29d4e24587d7010VgnVCM100000f932a8c0____
(Electroless Nickel/Immersion Gold, Solderability and Solder Joint Reliability 
as Functions of Process Control)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_plating

Searching around you will perhaps find even better articles.

I have never experienced problems with gold contact surfaces on even 
in harsh sea environment. On critical connections as there are coaxial 
antenna connectors on airplaine antennas we used to clean the surfaces 
and put a thin protection film of natural neutral vaseline on (acid free!), 
perhaps not necessary for normal home environment.

regards

Arnold


On Wed, 20 May 2009 09:23:45 +0200, Ulrich Bangert wrote:

>> For a cheap (slightly)longer term fix, wipe the IC pins 
>> with a swab moistened with WD40! 

>BALLISTOL is also recommended for that job.

>Best regards
>Ulrich Bangert

>> -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] Im Auftrag von Robert Atkinson
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 20. Mai 2009 08:58
>> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> I've not seen socket problems on my 5370B, but have with 
>> other equipment. The TI leaf contact sockets seem to be the 
>> worst. I've often wondered if it's a plating compatability 
>> issue. Small differences in plating composition might be 
>> causing problems. Retention force is not an issue as noted, 
>> but high retention could be caused by corrosion. Often just 
>> shifting the IC's in their sockets will effect a short term 
>> cure. For a cheap (slightly)longer term fix, wipe the IC pins 
>> with a swab moistened with WD40! 
>> 
>> Robert G8RPI.
>> 
>> --- On Wed, 20/5/09, Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
>> > To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
>> > <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> > Date: Wednesday, 20 May, 2009, 5:06 AM
>> > Hi Didier,
>> > 
>> > I have never doubted for one moment that the sockets were causing
>> > your problems, I just wonder how prevalent the failure is
>> > in the
>> > universe of 5370's.  I have HP equipment that is both
>> > newer and
>> > older than my 5370A, that has the same sockets.  It
>> > would not
>> > surprise me at all to find the 5370B has the same exact
>> > sockets
>> > too.
>> > 
>> > Double sided boards are a treat to work on with
>> > desoldering
>> > equipment.  Multilayer boards suck up so much heat
>> > that they
>> > are a real problem.  It helps to cook them on an IR
>> > preheater for
>> > a while before removing parts.
>> > 
>> > -Chuck Harris
>> > 
>> > Didier wrote:
>> > > Hi Chuck,
>> > > 
>> > > I agree, I could not see anything obvious that would
>> > indicate these
>> > > particular sockets would cause problems, other than
>> > they certainly looked
>> > > cheap, even considering the date of manufacture. The
>> > contact pressure was
>> > > quite considerable, based on how hard it was to pull
>> > the chips out, so it
>> > > probably was not a bad contact between the socket and
>> > the pins. There are a
>> > > bunch of chips on sockets, and I never tried to find
>> > out if a particular
>> > > chip was causing the problem. I replaced all the
>> > sockets (except the PAL, I
>> > > did not have a socket for him.)
>> > > 
>> > > The good news is that the PWB has very thin traces
>> > (requiring little heat),
>> > > and the holes are fairly wide, so unsoldering the
>> > sockets was a piece of
>> > > cake, with the right tool. I did each unit in about 30
>> > minutes, all
>> > > included. The easiest was to remove the plastic part
>> > of the socket BEFORE
>> > > unsoldering the contacts. It comes off easily when you
>> > pull on it. Then each
>> > > contact can be removed individually with minimum
>> > stress on the board.
>> > > 
>> > > One of my two units had evidence of having been in
>> > uncontrolled storage for
>> > > at least some time before I got it. The case was very
>> > dirty, inside the unit
>> > > was dusty but relatively clean. The other was
>> > relatively clean inside and
>> > > out.
>> > > 
>> > > One thing for sure, is that until I replaced the
>> > sockets, the units would
>> > > only work a few days at a time, and wiggling and
>> > reseating the PROMs would
>> > > fix the problem each time, until next time.
>> > > 
>> > > Didier
>> > > 
>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>> > >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
>> > [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
>> > On Behalf Of Chuck Harris
>> > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 7:52 PM
>> > >> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency
>> > measurement
>> > >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 5370A socket problem
>> > >> 
>> > >> Hi Didier,
>> > >> 
>> > >> I just had a look in mine, and it uses plain old
>> > TI sockets.  They may, or may not be gold (I didn't
>> > look that carefully).  My unit is S/N 2217A01399, so it
>> > sits in the middle of your two units.
>> > >> 
>> > >> I know that my unit is special (because it is
>> > mine, of course ;-), but I just don't think it is all 
>> *that* special.  
>> > I have seen the same TI sockets used on so many different 
>> instruments 
>> > --I would bet more than half the stuff in my shop has them--  They 
>> > seem to work more often than not.
>> > >> 
>> > >> -Chuck Harris
>> > > 
>> > > 
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > > To unsubscribe, go to 
>> > > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > > and follow the instructions there.
>> > > 





From holrum at hotmail.com  Wed May 20 15:53:27 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:53:27 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1187.1242777164.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1187.1242777164.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W167E5911FE7F750FBBD6F8CE580@phx.gbl>



Yes,  I have replaced the fans in four 5370A and 5370B counters with modern 12V brushless DC motor units connected to the 10V supply.  VERY nice and quiet.  I did before and after thermocouple tests in the chassis.  The temperatures were basically unchanged (+/- 3C).  Variances could easily have been due to the probes shifting.

I have also done several dozen HP16500 logic analyzers and Tektronix TM5003 and TM5006 mainfarmes.  On the TM5003 and TM5006, I run the fan on 8V.  They are almost dead silent.  


Use the lowest current fan that you can find...  they tend to be the quietest.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009

From holrum at hotmail.com  Wed May 20 16:05:09 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:05:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] More 5370 mods...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1242820801.3698.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1242820801.3698.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W82FCF12FE092A853A0B78CE580@phx.gbl>


Some other useful mods to the 5370 (besides a quiet fan):

1) I install a tiny toggle switch on the oscillator board to disable that LED/freq detector circuit.  The switch lets you re-enable it for testing, etc.

2) Drill a hole in the top cover directly above the oscillator tuning screw.  This lets you set the oscillator without opening the case.

3) That rear heat sink gets very warm.  One might want to put a small fan on it.  I have not done this,  but have considered it.  I hate fan noise...
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009

From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Wed May 20 16:18:57 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:18:57 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W167E5911FE7F750FBBD6F8CE580@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1187.1242777164.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W167E5911FE7F750FBBD6F8CE580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9DE0D47F274343629E6F6B35BEC3B67B@LapTop>

Mark
Thanks for your comments. I suspect that there was a period when the "Papst" 
fan was the de facto standard in many equipments, it has considerable depth 
and obviously moves a lot of air. I can certainly see the need in the case 
of Power Supplies, I have an HP6632A which can provide 100 watts of power.
But a good example of overkill was the HP 3456A Digital Voltmeter, the 
earlier models were fitted with a fan, which was subsequently removed in 
later issues. I have an older model and I have disconnected the fan (it was 
a small type), it was obviously not needed.
 I have an HP 5334A, and a HP5335A, the latter being more obtrusive. Perhaps 
the design considerations were based on the US, with its higher summer 
temperatures,not such a problem for us Europeans.
Roy



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:53 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)




Yes,  I have replaced the fans in four 5370A and 5370B counters with modern 
12V brushless DC motor units connected to the 10V supply.  VERY nice and 
quiet.  I did before and after thermocouple tests in the chassis.  The 
temperatures were basically unchanged (+/- 3C).  Variances could easily have 
been due to the probes shifting.

I have also done several dozen HP16500 logic analyzers and Tektronix TM5003 
and TM5006 mainfarmes.  On the TM5003 and TM5006, I run the fan on 8V.  They 
are almost dead silent.


Use the lowest current fan that you can find...  they tend to be the 
quietest.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to 
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




From peterawson at earthlink.net  Wed May 20 16:31:57 2009
From: peterawson at earthlink.net (Pete)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:31:57 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
References: <013a01c9d928$a12cb230$4501a8c0@r44>
	<B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7@LapTop>
Message-ID: <EB2608DF4542402BAD9F07AA322840F6@BASE1>

The fan in the 5370x  & other counters is bolted directly to the
chassis. I've found that it can be isolated by rubber grommets
from the chassis yielding a significant reduction in noise. Some
adhesive backed foam (weather-stripping) is needed around the
chassis opening to seal up the bypass path & some smaller 
mounting screws are needed to accommodate the grommets.
The unit won't meet its original shock resistance test, but who
cares? The intention here is to maintain the original airflow &
not put more load on the PS.

Pete Rawson


From pfmonet at wanadoo.fr  Wed May 20 16:34:47 2009
From: pfmonet at wanadoo.fr (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Pierre-Fran=E7ois_=28f5bqp=5Fpfm=29?=)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:34:47 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 46
References: <mailman.1.1242820801.3698.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <01c001c9d968$e5781c50$4501a8c0@r44>

Hi John and the group,

Yes you're right modifying the airflow of these old mummies isn't a good 
idea, their "life" and reliability will be reduced drastically.

Thanks for the paper you pointed to on Greenhall, I'll read very carefully 
to it.

It would have been good to be able to do Allan deviation technics with the 
5070 as this gear is so popular.
Too  bad it's not possible...
Yes it would be good to have this Greenhall implemented for the 5370, 
building a divider is pretty simple.

Best 73's
pf



>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 03:01:41 -0700
> From: "John Miles" <jmiles at pop.net>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles at pop.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>> Has anybody tried to replace these
>> fans with a
>> more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
>> proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
>> volume of air moving through it ?
>> I have an EIP 545 Counter and
>> an HP 5335A
>> which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
>> Any ideas on this.
>> Roy
>
> The 5370 counters are unusually power-hungry, at about 160 watts for my
> 5370B.  The airflow through the instrument is where the noise is coming
> from, not so much the fan itself (try powering the fan up outside the
> counter, holding it in your hand, and it'll be much quieter).  Can't speak
> for EIP but I don't think it's a good idea to alter the factory airflow
> specs on HP gear, in most cases.
>
>>Now I'm wondering which software I could use to grab data from it to the 
>>PC
>>and then to analyze the buffers to see the stability of my rubidium
>>source synchronised with the 1pps coming from the GPS.
>
> I'm not sure it's possible to make continuous stability measurements 
> (Allan
> deviation, etc.) directly with a 5370 since they don't support
> running/overlapped measurements between readings.  If you can work with a
> 1-pps output and can provide a divider for your reference, it can be done
> with a picket-fence technique (e.g.
> http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/papers/picket_uffc.pdf ) which I haven't 
> tried
> yet.
>
> If anyone thinks it might be worthwhile, I could throw together a GPIB app
> to implement Greenhall's paper for the 5370B with a Prologix or NI 
> board...
> but my guess is that most people have been using other gear for that sort 
> of
> thing.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:38:35 +0200
> From: Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm) <pfmonet at wanadoo.fr>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 45
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <019c01c9d93f$83235e30$4501a8c0 at r44>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hi Ulrich,
>
> Yes I'm frenchy but I use an NI USB/GPIB adaptor I've since a while, not
> this exotic ALCIOM...
>
> Best 73's
> pf, F5BQP
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:07:26 +0200
>> From: "Ulrich Bangert" <df6jb at ulrich-bangert.de>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
>> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <6D592D27DBE9444A97BF20F5FC2FCF75 at athlon>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Pf,
>>
>>> I've on a
>>> dedicated PC (XP) a GPIB/USB adapter for this application.
>>> Could you tell me which sw I could use to do this?
>>
>> since you own a French callsign chances are that you are talking about 
>> the
>> SMART488 from ALCIOM. In this case I have no help available. Should you
>> however talk about a Prologix interface or a National Instruments
>> interface,
>> then EZGPIB may be helpful to you. Just google for the name to learn more
>> about it.
>>
>> 73s and my best regards
>> Ulrich DF6JB
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 13:45:08 +0200
> From: Pierre-Fran?ois (f5bqp_pfm) <pfmonet at wanadoo.fr>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 45
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <019f01c9d940$6d4320e0$4501a8c0 at r44>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
>
> Hello Roy,
>
> Yes these fans from these old mummies are really too noisy.
> I've several counters: two EIP 578, this 5370B and an ADVANTEST 5372P, the
> quietest is really the ADVANTEST.
> I've also a bunch of other T&M intruments and it's impossible to have all 
> of
> these up and running. Really too noisy.
> I've no idea yet but I need to find a solution except having some gum into
> the ears... ;-))
>
> Best 73's
> pf, F5BQP
>
>
>
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:16:07 +0100
>> From: "Roy Phillips" <phill.r1 at btinternet.com>
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Message-ID: <B37F9EDC6EC14ABE85EF661FE2AE57E7 at LapTop>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> reply-type=original
>>
>> Hello Pierre-Fran?ois
>> A point of personal interest in your email  - -  The noise of the fan in
>> the
>> 5070B, this would appear to be a problem with a number of the older items
>> of
>> Hewlett Packard, and other manufacturers.
>> The items are usually  fitted with a Papst fan,with a high throughput of
>> air
>> running from the power line.  Has anybody tried to replace these fans 
>> with
>> a
>> more modern type (12/24 volt). I'm sure the designers were being very
>> proper, but I cannot believe that a counter should require such a large
>> volume of air moving through it ? I have an EIP 545 Counter and an HP
>> 5335A
>> which both have Papst fans and are very noisy
>> Any ideas on this.
>> Roy
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:46:43 +0100
> From: Luis Cupido <cupido at mail.ua.pt>
> Subject: [time-nuts]  5370B yet again
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <4A13EDA3.4000908 at mail.ua.pt>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I do have a HP5335A and after the many comments
> about the 5370 I'm curious if there is something
> I'd be better off with the 5370 instead of my 5334
> I've read the specs of both but... better ask
> the experts ;-)
>
> Luis Cupido.
> ct1dmk.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list
> time-nuts at febo.com
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 46
> *****************************************
> 




From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Wed May 20 16:41:40 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:41:40 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <9DE0D47F274343629E6F6B35BEC3B67B@LapTop>
Message-ID: <C63980D4.7E77%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/20/09 9:18 AM, "Roy Phillips" <phill.r1 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> Mark
> Thanks for your comments. I suspect that there was a period when the "Papst"
> fan was the de facto standard in many equipments, it has considerable depth
> and obviously moves a lot of air.

There is no real correlation between noise level and airflow or efficiency.
(a very tiny part of the energy goes into making noise).  A 20-30 dB
difference in SPL isn't unusual, for identical airflow.

You might check into other brands/models that have the same flow at the same
static pressure.

Another big noise source is turbulence from components around the fan (e.g.
A strut that intercepts a shed vortex from each blade can make a lot of
noise. If Nstruts = Nblades you're in bad shape.




 I can certainly see the need in the case
> of Power Supplies, I have an HP6632A which can provide 100 watts of power.
> But a good example of overkill was the HP 3456A Digital Voltmeter, the
> earlier models were fitted with a fan, which was subsequently removed in
> later issues. I have an older model and I have disconnected the fan (it was
> a small type), it was obviously not needed.
>  I have an HP 5334A, and a HP5335A, the latter being more obtrusive. Perhaps
> the design considerations were based on the US, with its higher summer
> temperatures,not such a problem for us Europeans.
> Roy
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Sims" <holrum at hotmail.com>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 4:53 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes,  I have replaced the fans in four 5370A and 5370B counters with modern
> 12V brushless DC motor units connected to the 10V supply.  VERY nice and
> quiet.  I did before and after thermocouple tests in the chassis.  The
> temperatures were basically unchanged (+/- 3C).  Variances could easily have
> been due to the probes shifting.
> 
> I have also done several dozen HP16500 logic analyzers and Tektronix TM5003
> and TM5006 mainfarmes.  On the TM5003 and TM5006, I run the fan on 8V.  They
> are almost dead silent.
> 
> 
> Use the lowest current fan that you can find...  they tend to be the
> quietest.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_
> Storage1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed May 20 16:47:41 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:47:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W167E5911FE7F750FBBD6F8CE580@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1187.1242777164.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W167E5911FE7F750FBBD6F8CE580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <b52b5163747c769a349a107928acaa74.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

When I have been concerned with 'stealing' power, I have used
a switching power supply wall wart. Small and are usually quite
efficient. One model a Sony (branded), the chip inside even had
a opto isolated control pin so it could be turned on/off via
logic.

-pete


>
>
> Yes,  I have replaced the fans in four 5370A and 5370B counters with
> modern 12V brushless DC motor units connected to the 10V supply.  VERY
> nice and quiet.  I did before and after thermocouple tests in the chassis.
>  The temperatures were basically unchanged (+/- 3C).  Variances could
> easily have been due to the probes shifting.
>
> I have also done several dozen HP16500 logic analyzers and Tektronix
> TM5003 and TM5006 mainfarmes.  On the TM5003 and TM5006, I run the fan on
> 8V.  They are almost dead silent.
>
>
> Use the lowest current fan that you can find...  they tend to be the
> quietest.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From folkert at vanheusden.com  Wed May 20 19:03:16 2009
From: folkert at vanheusden.com (Folkert van Heusden)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 21:03:16 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] garmin 18 lvc versus garmin 18x lvc with pps & ntp
Message-ID: <20090520190316.GF16054@vanheusden.com>

Hi,

Could not find any help anywhere on the web so you guys are my last
hope.
I have 2 computers running a linux PPS enabled kernel and ntp.
One of the two has a garmin 18 lvc, one has a garmin 18x lvc.

The one with the 18 lvc is neatly synced:
     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*GPS_NMEA(1)     .GPS.            0 l    3   16  377    0.000    0.014   0.000  <---
-muur.intranet.v .DCFa.           1 u    6   64  377    0.113  -12.192   0.047
-thegateap.intra 134.221.205.12   2 u   13   64  377    0.663   -4.427   0.099
xtuinhuis.intran .MSFS.           1 u   43   64  376    1.834  -21.121   0.897
xSHM(0)          .MSFU.           2 l   39   64  377    0.000   26.207  16.002
-ntp1.nl.uu.net  .PPS.            1 u   18   64  377   17.628   -3.813   0.445
+chime2.surfnet. .GPS.            1 u   40   64  327   21.176   -3.315   0.123
+ntp.nmi.nl      .PPS.            1 u   36   64  377   19.826   -3.448   0.352

the other with the 18x lvc not so much:
     remote           refid      st t when poll reach   delay   offset  jitter
==============================================================================
*GENERIC(0)      .DCFa.           0 l   50   64  377    0.000    7.370   6.659
xGPS_NMEA(0)     .GPS.            0 l    7   16  377    0.000  -657.92  11.250 <---
-ntp0.nl.uu.net  .PPS.            1 u  441 1024  377   20.147    8.310   1.973
-chime1.surfnet. .GPS.            1 u  498 1024  377   17.674    8.282   0.340
+ntp.nmi.nl      .PPS.            1 u  571 1024  377   20.065    8.279   0.383
-belle.intranet. .GPS.            1 u   37   64  376    0.097   12.165   0.062
-thegateap.intra 192.87.106.3     2 u  962 1024  176    0.095    6.811   0.720
xtuinhuis.intran .MSFS.           1 u  936 1024   76    1.971   -8.080   0.559

As you can see it's offset is huge. Somewhere between -600 and -700 and
on average around -657ms.

Once (or twice) it ran fine; offset and jitter both around 0.00xms.
Others seem to have this problem with that lvc version as well.

I verified that the system receives pps-signal:
mauer:/usr/local# for i in 1 2 3 4 5 ; do cat /sys/class/pps/pps1/assert ; sleep 1 ; done
1242845619.987661535#199682
1242845620.987661473#199683
1242845621.987660915#199684
1242845622.987660504#199685
1242845623.987660454#199686

The assert/clear is also not too short:
mauer:/sys/class/pps/pps1# cat  assert clear
1242846035.987585645#200094
1242846036.187587528#199624
so no problem there for the system to capture them.

Is there a way that i can verify that ntpd also sees these events?


Folkert van Heusden

-- 
MultiTail is a versatile tool for watching logfiles and output of
commands. Filtering, coloring, merging, diff-view, etc.
http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Phone: +31-6-41278122, PGP-key: 1F28D8AE, www.vanheusden.com


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Wed May 20 19:35:30 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 12:35:30 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] garmin 18 lvc versus garmin 18x lvc with pps & ntp
In-Reply-To: Message from Folkert van Heusden <folkert@vanheusden.com> 
	of "Wed,
	20 May 2009 21:03:16 +0200." <20090520190316.GF16054@vanheusden.com> 
Message-ID: <20090520193531.09FBEBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


folkert at vanheusden.com said:
> Could not find any help anywhere on the web so you guys are my last
> hope. I have 2 computers running a linux PPS enabled kernel and ntp.
> One of the two has a garmin 18 lvc, one has a garmin 18x lvc. 

You will probably get better help with NTP related issues from the ntp people.

There is a mailing list at:
  https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
It's gatewayed to usenet:comp.protocols.time.ntp

The NMEA driver is interesting.  First, it gets the time from the serial 
port.  If that looks reasonable, it fixes up the bottom bits of the timestamp 
with the data from the PPS info.

The timing on the serial port for the Garmin 18x units is pretty bad.  (The 
-18 non-x was pretty good.)  I'll have to look closely at the source code to 
see what that "reasonable" filter does.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From holrum at hotmail.com  Wed May 20 20:23:03 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 20:23:03 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1221.1242837299.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1221.1242837299.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W28E3F348541A98AAD7A248CE580@phx.gbl>


I have done quite a bit of work replacing fans in old equipment with modern fans.  I have never seen a case where replacing a hurricane level fan with a whisper quiet fan made any real difference in the cooling inside the unit...  typically one sees less than +/- 5C difference anywhere inside the box.  Some places get a bit cooler and some a bit warmer.  Since most test equipment is speced for industrial temperature ranges and is now used in nice cushy offices and homes any difference is still well within specs.

A few hints...  just a little air flow goes a long way in maintaining the cool.   Fans that blow in to the chassis are usually more effective than those that exhaust the air out (and overall dust level in the box does not change).   The best determining factor for fan noise (other than listening) is the rated current draw.  If you can operate the fan a couple of volts below its rating,  all the better.  Adding 150-200mA of draw to a 12V supply in something like the HP5370 is negligible (the unit was designed to accommodate a couple of extra cards in the chassis).   

Sometimes it is necessary to add a separate power supply for the fan.  In my HP 5371A's I mounted a small wall wart type unit in the box.  One thing to be aware of when replacing a 120V fan with a DC fan is the possibility of overheating if the power supply driving the fan goes bad and there are other supplies running in the chassis.  The Tek TM5000 series boxes have a thermoswitch that kills AC power to the unit if it gets too hot.   Another thing to be aware of is the possibility of the fan supply not being compatible with the line voltage if the unit is shipped  overseas.  I use a universal input wall wart. 

Speaking of turbulence and noise,  the noise produced by a turbulent air flow increases at the eighth power of the velocity!  The HP16500 logic analyzers have two 12V/700mA fans mounted at 90 degrees to each other.  The resulting mix can produce a noise level approaching OSHA limits.  I replace them with 200mA units and they are then quiet enough to sleep by.
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From brooke at pacific.net  Thu May 21 01:54:35 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 18:54:35 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
Message-ID: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>

Hi:

I just got an Ashtech Z-12-R Reference Station and it needs the subject 
antenna. 
http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml

I've got a bunch of GPS antennas but none with the needed combination of 
features.  It would be good to learn which antennas are 10 Volt types.  
For example is the Trimble 4000ST L1 Geodetic, Model 14177-00 a 10 Volt 
antenna?
http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#4000STant

-- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



From glennmaillist at bellsouth.net  Thu May 21 03:49:18 2009
From: glennmaillist at bellsouth.net (Glenn Little WB4UIV)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:49:18 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
In-Reply-To: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>
References: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090520234721.028deb60@mail.bellsouth.net>

You could put a regulator on the voltage line for the antenna so that 
you could use a 5 Volt antenna.

This would get you away from the specific voltage requirements for 
their antenna.

73
Glenn
WB4UIV

At 09:54 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
>Hi:
>
>I just got an Ashtech Z-12-R Reference Station and it needs the 
>subject antenna. http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>
>I've got a bunch of GPS antennas but none with the needed 
>combination of features.  It would be good to learn which antennas 
>are 10 Volt types.
>For example is the Trimble 4000ST L1 Geodetic, Model 14177-00 a 10 
>Volt antenna?
>http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#4000STant
>
>--
>Have Fun,
>
>Brooke Clarke
>http://www.prc68.com
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From brooke at pacific.net  Thu May 21 05:08:07 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 22:08:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090520234721.028deb60@mail.bellsouth.net>
References: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20090520234721.028deb60@mail.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <4A14E1B7.8030601@pacific.net>

Hi Glenn:

Yes, I've thought about doing that, but then priced a small Pomona box 
at $50 and thought just getting the proper antenna would be easier and 
not that much more money.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



Glenn Little WB4UIV wrote:
> You could put a regulator on the voltage line for the antenna so that 
> you could use a 5 Volt antenna.
>
> This would get you away from the specific voltage requirements for 
> their antenna.
>
> 73
> Glenn
> WB4UIV
>
> At 09:54 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> I just got an Ashtech Z-12-R Reference Station and it needs the 
>> subject antenna. http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>
>> I've got a bunch of GPS antennas but none with the needed combination 
>> of features.  It would be good to learn which antennas are 10 Volt 
>> types.
>> For example is the Trimble 4000ST L1 Geodetic, Model 14177-00 a 10 
>> Volt antenna?
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#4000STant
>>
>> -- 
>> Have Fun,
>>
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.prc68.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>


From crushin2000 at austin.rr.com  Thu May 21 06:45:10 2009
From: crushin2000 at austin.rr.com (Charles Rushing)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 01:45:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
Message-ID: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>

Greetings To All,

 

Please accept my apologies in advance if this is off-topic.  I have just
acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively identified as coming from
a Boeing 747.  It's way cool looking and would make a perfect dust collector
in my ham shack if I could only power it up.

 

There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on the back, but no
indication of what the pinout may be.  The unit is identified as:

 

"CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC

 MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS

 NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.

 Cheshire, Conn.

 MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"

 

I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but could only find the
reference to the 747.  Does anyone have any information about these clocks,
or can someone point me in the right direction?

 

Many thanks in advance.

 

Chuck

WA5MUV

 


From bg at lysator.liu.se  Thu May 21 07:41:49 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:41:49 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
In-Reply-To: <4A14E1B7.8030601@pacific.net>
References: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20090520234721.028deb60@mail.bellsouth.net>
	<4A14E1B7.8030601@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <64921.87.227.52.225.1242891709.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

Hi Brooke,

Check  Ebay # 270386792376 &  #200243560108

They are probably dual frequency splitters. Then you connect your Z12 to a
DC-block port and either just DC-power or a fitting GPS receiver to power
the antenna through the DC-through port.

http://gpsnetworking.com/GPS-antenna-splitters.asp
http://www.gpssource.com/mysql/splitters.php

Both GPS Source and GPS Networking splitters surface on Ebay from time to
time.

The HP/Agilent/Symmetricom line of splitters are L1-only.

--

   Bj?rn
> Hi Glenn:
>
> Yes, I've thought about doing that, but then priced a small Pomona box
> at $50 and thought just getting the proper antenna would be easier and
> not that much more money.
>
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.prc68.com
>
>
>
> Glenn Little WB4UIV wrote:
>> You could put a regulator on the voltage line for the antenna so that
>> you could use a 5 Volt antenna.
>>
>> This would get you away from the specific voltage requirements for
>> their antenna.
>>
>> 73
>> Glenn
>> WB4UIV
>>
>> At 09:54 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> I just got an Ashtech Z-12-R Reference Station and it needs the
>>> subject antenna. http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>>
>>> I've got a bunch of GPS antennas but none with the needed combination
>>> of features.  It would be good to learn which antennas are 10 Volt
>>> types.
>>> For example is the Trimble 4000ST L1 Geodetic, Model 14177-00 a 10
>>> Volt antenna?
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#4000STant
>>>
>>> --
>>> Have Fun,
>>>
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> http://www.prc68.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>




From bill at iaxs.net  Thu May 21 07:51:19 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 02:51:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>
References: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <5D174BD204344F32BBF183EE98579089@cyrus>

Sounds like you need to know more about the instrument power in a 747,
perhaps starting with Boeing. You could be needing DC or AC in one or
three phases, more likely at 400 Hz. OTOH, the VCR players for movies
looked like stock items.

The AC generators in aircraft are not likely to have the accuracy of
ground-based power distribution, so the clock probably has an internal
DC supply and a crystal oscillator.

Can you open it up to do any tracing? Have you tried calling A. W.
Haydon? They've been around for a while.

Bill Hawkins


-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Rushing
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:45 AM

Greetings To All,

Please accept my apologies in advance if this is off-topic.  I have just
acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively identified as coming from
a Boeing 747.  It's way cool looking and would make a perfect dust collector
in my ham shack if I could only power it up.

There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on the back, but no
indication of what the pinout may be.  The unit is identified as:

"CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
 MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
 NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
 Cheshire, Conn.
 MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"

I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but could only find the
reference to the 747.  Does anyone have any information about these clocks,
or can someone point me in the right direction?

Many thanks in advance.

Chuck

WA5MUV





From frledda at verizon.net  Thu May 21 12:29:49 2009
From: frledda at verizon.net (Francesco Ledda)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:29:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <PAEJKNPPIGMNDLMJLENMMEPIHLAA.frledda@verizon.net>

Most likely, the clock needs 5V for the internal lighting.  Many aircrft
clocks are mechanical, but some are lectrical and need 28VDC.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Charles Rushing
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:45 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer


Greetings To All,



Please accept my apologies in advance if this is off-topic.  I have just
acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively identified as coming from
a Boeing 747.  It's way cool looking and would make a perfect dust collector
in my ham shack if I could only power it up.



There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on the back, but no
indication of what the pinout may be.  The unit is identified as:



"CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC

 MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS

 NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.

 Cheshire, Conn.

 MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"



I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but could only find the
reference to the 747.  Does anyone have any information about these clocks,
or can someone point me in the right direction?



Many thanks in advance.



Chuck

WA5MUV



_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 21 12:44:25 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 12:44:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
Message-ID: <931396.27133.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi Chuck,
This is an electromechanical clock. Should just need 24V DC to operate and 5V (ac or dc) for lighting. I'll try to dig out connections for you. 

--- On Thu, 21/5/09, Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> From: Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:45 AM
> Greetings To All,
> 
>  
> 
> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is
> off-topic.? I have just
> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively
> identified as coming from
> a Boeing 747.? It's way cool looking and would make a
> perfect dust collector
> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
> 
>  
> 
> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on
> the back, but no
> indication of what the pinout may be.? The unit is
> identified as:
> 
>  
> 
> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
> 
>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
> 
>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
> 
>  Cheshire, Conn.
> 
>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
> 
>  
> 
> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but
> could only find the
> reference to the 747.? Does anyone have any
> information about these clocks,
> or can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
>  
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
>  
> 
> Chuck
> 
> WA5MUV
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From jason at extremeoverclocking.com  Thu May 21 13:32:44 2009
From: jason at extremeoverclocking.com (Jason Rabel)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 08:32:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
Message-ID: <127ACDA725C84CC298FB939126CF9FB5@Inspiron>

I was going to suggest using a GPS splitter too, but with a twist.

You can find a Bias Tee to block the DC current from the Ashtech (and optionally sink it to ground if it monitors current). That way
there is no chance the 10v will reach your antenna.

Jason



From brooke at pacific.net  Thu May 21 13:49:23 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 06:49:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
In-Reply-To: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>
References: <000001c9d9df$b028ad40$107a07c0$@rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A155BE3.7090705@pacific.net>

Hi Charles:

It's probably a standard connector.  You need to look at it closely with 
a magnifying glass at all the surfaces for ID information.  99% of the 
time there's printed or engraved or moulded information that is enough 
to ID the panel receptacle.   Then it's straight forward to find the 
mating plug.  Figuring out the pin out is also not that difficult if you 
can open it up.
I'm working on a major addition to my connectors web page to help do 
some of that.
http://www.prc68.com/I/Conn.shtml

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



Charles Rushing wrote:
> Greetings To All,
>
>  
>
> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is off-topic.  I have just
> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively identified as coming from
> a Boeing 747.  It's way cool looking and would make a perfect dust collector
> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
>
>  
>
> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on the back, but no
> indication of what the pinout may be.  The unit is identified as:
>
>  
>
> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
>
>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
>
>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
>
>  Cheshire, Conn.
>
>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
>
>  
>
> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but could only find the
> reference to the 747.  Does anyone have any information about these clocks,
> or can someone point me in the right direction?
>
>  
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
>  
>
> Chuck
>
> WA5MUV
>
>  
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   


From brooke at pacific.net  Thu May 21 14:06:39 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:06:39 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] WTB: 10 Volt L1 & L2 GPS Antenna
In-Reply-To: <64921.87.227.52.225.1242891709.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
References: <4A14B45B.6070207@pacific.net>
	<6.2.3.4.2.20090520234721.028deb60@mail.bellsouth.net>
	<4A14E1B7.8030601@pacific.net>
	<64921.87.227.52.225.1242891709.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
Message-ID: <4A155FEF.4060709@pacific.net>

Thanks Bj?rn:

I've got both of them on order and it's a way to start using the Z-12.  But my L1/L2 antennas are military patch types and for the Z-12 I'd like to use a geodetic grade (ground plane or choke ring) antenna long term.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com



bg at lysator.liu.se wrote:
> Hi Brooke,
>
> Check  Ebay # 270386792376 &  #200243560108
>
> They are probably dual frequency splitters. Then you connect your Z12 to a
> DC-block port and either just DC-power or a fitting GPS receiver to power
> the antenna through the DC-through port.
>
> http://gpsnetworking.com/GPS-antenna-splitters.asp
> http://www.gpssource.com/mysql/splitters.php
>
> Both GPS Source and GPS Networking splitters surface on Ebay from time to
> time.
>
> The HP/Agilent/Symmetricom line of splitters are L1-only.
>
> --
>
>    Bj?rn
>   
>> Hi Glenn:
>>
>> Yes, I've thought about doing that, but then priced a small Pomona box
>> at $50 and thought just getting the proper antenna would be easier and
>> not that much more money.
>>
>> Have Fun,
>>
>> Brooke Clarke
>> http://www.prc68.com
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn Little WB4UIV wrote:
>>     
>>> You could put a regulator on the voltage line for the antenna so that
>>> you could use a 5 Volt antenna.
>>>
>>> This would get you away from the specific voltage requirements for
>>> their antenna.
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Glenn
>>> WB4UIV
>>>
>>> At 09:54 PM 5/20/2009, you wrote:
>>>       
>>>> Hi:
>>>>
>>>> I just got an Ashtech Z-12-R Reference Station and it needs the
>>>> subject antenna. http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>>>
>>>> I've got a bunch of GPS antennas but none with the needed combination
>>>> of features.  It would be good to learn which antennas are 10 Volt
>>>> types.
>>>> For example is the Trimble 4000ST L1 Geodetic, Model 14177-00 a 10
>>>> Volt antenna?
>>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/Trimpack.shtml#4000STant
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Have Fun,
>>>>
>>>> Brooke Clarke
>>>> http://www.prc68.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>         
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>     
>
>
>   



From drhydro at qwest.net  Thu May 21 14:18:12 2009
From: drhydro at qwest.net (Paul Nelson)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:18:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Haydon aircraft clock
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1242907201.304.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.3.1242907201.304.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A1562A4.5000608@qwest.net>

These clocks are generally driven by 24 volts, not AC 400Hz- BUT they 
almost all have an external time base which provides a two-phase 60Hz 
signal. I have several of them, and have been able to find one timebase 
to power em with.... I have some documentation squirreled away and I'll 
look it up this weekend.

Best, Paul

time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 02:51:19 -0500
> From: "Bill Hawkins" <bill at iaxs.net>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
> 	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <5D174BD204344F32BBF183EE98579089 at cyrus>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> Sounds like you need to know more about the instrument power in a 747,
> perhaps starting with Boeing. You could be needing DC or AC in one or
> three phases, more likely at 400 Hz. OTOH, the VCR players for movies
> looked like stock items.
>
> The AC generators in aircraft are not likely to have the accuracy of
> ground-based power distribution, so the clock probably has an internal
> DC supply and a crystal oscillator.
>
> Can you open it up to do any tracing? Have you tried calling A. W.
> Haydon? They've been around for a while.
>
> Bill Hawkins
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Charles Rushing
> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:45 AM
>
> Greetings To All,
>
> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is off-topic.  I have just
> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively identified as coming from
> a Boeing 747.  It's way cool looking and would make a perfect dust collector
> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
>
> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on the back, but no
> indication of what the pinout may be.  The unit is identified as:
>
> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
>  Cheshire, Conn.
>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
>
> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but could only find the
> reference to the 747.  Does anyone have any information about these clocks,
> or can someone point me in the right direction?
>
> Many thanks in advance.
>
> Chuck
>
> WA5MUV
>
>   

-- 
Paul Nelson W5GNF              "When I go, I want to go quietly, in my
Ames, Iowa                     sleep, like my grandfather- not 
Senior Engineer (Retired)      screaming, like his passengers."
Sauer-Danfoss Company
(DrHydro at qwest.net)
                               "More hay, Trigger?"
 ex-Cessna 140 N77149 (sigh)   "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed."



From richard at karlquist.com  Thu May 21 16:25:51 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:25:51 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W28E3F348541A98AAD7A248CE580@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1221.1242837299.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W28E3F348541A98AAD7A248CE580@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com>

Mark Sims wrote:
> I have done quite a bit of work replacing fans in old equipment with modern fans.

   I have never seen a case where replacing a hurricane level fan with a 
whisper

  quiet fan made any real difference in the cooling inside the unit... 
typically

one sees less than +/- 5C difference anywhere inside the box.  Some places

  get a bit cooler and some a bit warmer.

This is incorrect.  ECL components require a minimum airflow velocity
that is rather high.  The purpose of the large fan is to maintain this
velocity.  If a smaller fan is used, the ECL components will get hotter,
even though the air flowing past them is not much hotter.  When you say
the fan didn't make any real difference in cooling inside the unit, did
you measure the temperature of the ECL DIP's?  "Modern" fans obey the
same laws of physics as the original equipment.  They don't magically
produce more airflow for less noise.  It would also be a mistake to
assume automatically that all HP equipment is overdesigned.  I remember
one logic analyzer was referred to internally as the "logic furnace",
which had a high failure rate.

Rick Karlquist N6RK


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Thu May 21 17:12:24 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:12:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 21 May 2009 09:25:51 MST."
	<4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com> 
Message-ID: <2000.1242925944@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <4A15808F.4090002 at karlquist.com>, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" writes:

>"Modern" fans obey the same laws of physics as the original equipment.
>They don't magically produce more airflow for less noise.

Agreed: there is no magic to it.

But a lot has happened in aerodynamics since Hermann Papst invented
the external rotor motor and had to add fans to keep it cold.

In recent years noise from air transport have become a competition
parameter, and these days you can buy standard fans that move twice
as much air at the same dB level, as you would have found five years
ago.

As for reducing air-flow in old kit: I wouldn't do that without a
careful session with a thermovision camera.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Thu May 21 17:13:47 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 10:13:47 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com>
References: <mailman.1221.1242837299.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W28E3F348541A98AAD7A248CE580@phx.gbl>
	<4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com>
Message-ID: <ECE7A93BD093E1439C20020FBE87C47FEB68FC30B2@ALTPHYEMBEVSP20.RES.AD.JPL>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Richard 
> (Rick) Karlquist
> Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 9:26 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)

>   get a bit cooler and some a bit warmer.
> 
> This is incorrect.  ECL components require a minimum airflow 
> velocity that is rather high.  The purpose of the large fan 
> is to maintain this velocity.  If a smaller fan is used, the 
> ECL components will get hotter, even though the air flowing 
> past them is not much hotter.  When you say the fan didn't 
> make any real difference in cooling inside the unit, did you 
> measure the temperature of the ECL DIP's?  "Modern" fans obey 
> the same laws of physics as the original equipment.  They 
> don't magically produce more airflow for less noise.

It's not necessarily magic. It's things like better blade design that gets you same air performance with less noise.  I used to work for a company which made fans for use in the theatrical/entertainment market (so quiet is important).  We went through dozens and dozens of different blade/housing configurations to find ones that were both quiet and performed well. 

Unfortunately, it's a task that is not made simpler by CFD modeling.. The relationship between flow and sound production is so complex that empiricism (i.e. trying lots of ideas) is cheaper (unless you're designing propellors for nuclear submarines).

And, once you have a design that works, you have to be careful about patent infringement.  Each "muffin fan" vendor has patents on their particular blade design.




  It 
> would also be a mistake to assume automatically that all HP 
> equipment is overdesigned.  I remember one logic analyzer was 
> referred to internally as the "logic furnace", which had a 
> high failure rate.

And there's the 8663A signal generator as well. 


> 
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, 
> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Thu May 21 17:50:33 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:50:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
Message-ID: <240600.56920.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi Charles,
I had a dig, but could only find info on the current clocks that receive time info on an ARINC 429 serial bus, and an earlier hybrid LCD / mechanical model that needs an external 1PPS (I'd like one of those).
I've never seen an aircraft clock that needed an external 60Hz signal. Unfortunatly Hayden have been bought up and no longer list instruments. Keep Googling!

Robert G8RPI

--- On Thu, 21/5/09, Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com> wrote:

> From: Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:45 AM
> Greetings To All,
> 
>  
> 
> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is
> off-topic.? I have just
> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively
> identified as coming from
> a Boeing 747.? It's way cool looking and would make a
> perfect dust collector
> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
> 
>  
> 
> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on
> the back, but no
> indication of what the pinout may be.? The unit is
> identified as:
> 
>  
> 
> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
> 
>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
> 
>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
> 
>  Cheshire, Conn.
> 
>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
> 
>  
> 
> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but
> could only find the
> reference to the 747.? Does anyone have any
> information about these clocks,
> or can someone point me in the right direction?
> 
>  
> 
> Many thanks in advance.
> 
>  
> 
> Chuck
> 
> WA5MUV
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From didier at cox.net  Thu May 21 19:25:58 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 14:25:58 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <2000.1242925944@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: Your message of "Thu,
	21 May 2009 09:25:51 MST."<4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com>
	<2000.1242925944@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <5CDB0B775F014036BDCC0754F4AEB711@keltec.sigtech.com>

Part of the problem is that in some equipment (not all, but based on my
experience, most), the noise comes from not from the fan itself, but from
poor air routing inside the equipment itself. The air moving around
encumbered passage makes noise. As someone pointed out earlier, take the fan
out of the equipment for a few seconds, in most cases the noise will be much
less. So if the noise is a function of the air flowing over components, the
fan type makes no difference, the same air flow will produce the same noise.

In some cases, the fan itself may be the primary cause of the noise, and
when that happens, the fan is usually deffective (worn bearings, or
damaged/dirty blades.) In that case, replacing the fan with the same model
but new will fix the problem.

I recently replaced the fan on an HP power supply. With the fan out of the
enclosure, you could clearly tell the fan was bad, and the new one (same
model) was almost quiet. Once in the chassis, it did not make that much of a
difference. There was less whine from the fan itself, but the noise from the
air flow over the heat sinks and the grill was dominating the noise from the
fan.

Part of a good design is to design the cooling for the expected environment.
Therefore, a well designed piece of equipment will have adequate cooling,
but not more than is needed to meet the requirements, otherwise it will be
wasted money. And while much equipment is designed to operate at up to 50
degree C ambient, many only do so at degraded performance. Nominal
performance on most precision instruments is only achieved within a
typically narrow range around 25 degree C or thereabout, which is where the
equipment is calibrated.

So, think twice before reducing the air flow, regardless of other
considerations (reliability) justly pointed out by others.

Didier

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 12:12 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)

In message <4A15808F.4090002 at karlquist.com>, "Richard (Rick) Karlquist"
writes:

>"Modern" fans obey the same laws of physics as the original equipment.
>They don't magically produce more airflow for less noise.

Agreed: there is no magic to it.

But a lot has happened in aerodynamics since Hermann Papst invented the
external rotor motor and had to add fans to keep it cold.

In recent years noise from air transport have become a competition
parameter, and these days you can buy standard fans that move twice as much
air at the same dB level, as you would have found five years ago.

As for reducing air-flow in old kit: I wouldn't do that without a careful
session with a thermovision camera.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Thu May 21 20:08:07 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:08:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Message from "Richard (Rick) Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> 
	of "Thu,
	21 May 2009 09:25:51 PDT." <4A15808F.4090002@karlquist.com> 
Message-ID: <20090521200809.1A9F2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> This is incorrect.  ECL components require a minimum airflow velocity
> that is rather high.  The purpose of the large fan is to maintain this
> velocity.  If a smaller fan is used, the ECL components will get
> hotter, even though the air flowing past them is not much hotter.
> When you say the fan didn't make any real difference in cooling inside
> the unit, did you measure the temperature of the ECL DIP's?

How much ECL is used in a 5070?  How tightly are they packed?  How much of 
the heat goes directly from the chip to the air rather than from chip to 
board to air?

How much room is there above the chips?  Many years ago I saw some neat 
add-on heat sinks.  They were heavy copper foil with double sided sticky 
tape.  They had a couple of fins sticking up into the air flow.  They weren't 
serious heat sinks, but good enough to help if all you needed was a little.



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From richard at karlquist.com  Thu May 21 20:39:07 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:39:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <20090521200809.1A9F2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090521200809.1A9F2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <161c6176476acbca291960baf656213c.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>

Hal Murray wrote:
> How much ECL is used in a 5070?

A bunch

How tightly are they packed?

You need a high cooling velocity even if just one chip.

> How much of
> the heat goes directly from the chip to the air rather than from chip to
> board to air?

A substantial amount of cooling is from DIP to air, unlike tiny
SMT packages used now.

> How much room is there above the chips?  Many years ago I saw some neat

Probably not much extra room.

Rick Karlquist N6RK



From holrum at hotmail.com  Thu May 21 21:03:52 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 21:03:52 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1244.1242925954.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1244.1242925954.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W65BBB3CBDDD6110F04EABCE590@phx.gbl>


Hello Karl,

When I tested my quiet 12V fans in the 5370As,  I placed 6 thermocouples around the guts of the machine.  I made a point of sticking a couple of them on heatsinked chips.   The new fan made no significant difference in the readings on any of the thermocouples.  All the readings were within +/- 3 degrees C.

During  the time period when the 5370's were produced brushless DC fans were very expensive and 117VAC fans were cheap.  I suspect that HP just used a standard stock 117VAC fan for cost and convenience.  The one that they chose was a real screamer.

The HP16500 logic analyzers used two 12VDC, 700mA fans.  Most likely it was available from at least two sources and quieter fans were not available at the time.   We had a smallish lab with three of them running in it.  When the safety nerd came by with his sound meter... he was not pleased.  With the quiet 200mA fans and a full load of the most power hungry cards the temperatures in the unit were within +/- 5C (some of which was due to ambient temperature differences between morning and afternoon when the new fans were tested).

The HP16702 series logic analyzers are another matter...  when HP introduced a new logic analyzer card for them (I don't remember which one),  they recalled the older machines to retrofit a couple more (even noisier) fans in them.   Needless to say,  I have not attempted to tame any of those beasties,  but I suspect that you could use lower airflow units.  They added a couple more fans (I think it went from 3 to 5) so that the whole width of the card cage was a wall of fans.

----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From perseidjh at hotmail.com  Thu May 21 21:19:51 2009
From: perseidjh at hotmail.com (Jim Hall)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 15:19:51 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
Message-ID: <BAY105-DS3D02B5D2BD7B1617E6A10B1590@phx.gbl>

When I worked in R&D at HP's Microwave Division (1972 ~ 1976) and HP LaserJet Division (1976 ~ 2000) we designed all our products to meet specifications across a temperature range of -20 to +55 degrees Centigrade.  I would assume this was a standard requirement across most if not all HP products although I can't be sure. 

Therefore if you are operating your HP equipment in an office environment you can probably reduce air flow some without a significant degradation in performance.  On the other hand, as has been reiterated here many times, cooler is always better from a reliability standpoint.  Therefore I would personally hesitate to reduce the air flow in any of my HP gear.

Jim Hall W4TVI

From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Thu May 21 23:54:19 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:54:19 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <161c6176476acbca291960baf656213c.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
References: <20090521200809.1A9F2BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<161c6176476acbca291960baf656213c.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4A15E9AB.3060403@xtra.co.nz>

The ECL and EECL chips are located on  A22 (arming board), A19 + A20
(interpolator boards), A18, A17 (count chain assembly) A8 (reference
buffer), A21 (multiplier assembly).
The interpolator boards are more or less directly in line with the
ducted airflow from the fan as are  the reference buffer and frequency
multiplier boards.
A22 which has most of the ECL and EECL logic is mounted at right angles
to the initial ducted fan airflow which impinges on its rear surface.

From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 22 00:20:39 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 00:20:39 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>


A8? Reference buffer?  Gee, I thought was the electrostatic dust magnet ;-)   That puppy can grow more fuzz than a sheepdog.   In all the machines I have worked on,  it was utterly disgusting.

BTW,  the best way to locate where to drill the access hole for the oscillator tuning pot is to look on the underside of the top cover.  The oscillator compartment will be outlined in dust.  Measure the tuning screw location from the sides of the oscillator compartment with calipers and transfer the measurements to the dust outline...  it's more accurate than measuring from the edges of the box.

----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009

From jim77742 at gmail.com  Fri May 22 00:32:22 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:32:22 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905211732u12327815pa67ee46e00c6e5ab@mail.gmail.com>

I came home one day to find *that* smell in my workshop. It turned out to be
my HP 3325B. It had been on for ages and it had also been a warm day. I
looked at the back and found the intake completely blocked up with dust.

It seems to still work, but I need to open it right up and check it out
properly.

So, yes, in conclusion air flow is important!

Jim


2009/5/22 Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>

>
> A8? Reference buffer?  Gee, I thought was the electrostatic dust magnet ;-)
>   That puppy can grow more fuzz than a sheepdog.   In all the machines I
> have worked on,  it was utterly disgusting.
>
> BTW,  the best way to locate where to drill the access hole for the
> oscillator tuning pot is to look on the underside of the top cover.  The
> oscillator compartment will be outlined in dust.  Measure the tuning screw
> location from the sides of the oscillator compartment with calipers and
> transfer the measurements to the dust outline...  it's more accurate than
> measuring from the edges of the box.
>
> ----------------------------------------
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
>
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com  Fri May 22 03:19:05 2009
From: kilodelta4foxmike at gmail.com (Brian Kirby)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 22:19:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 74HC390 Dividers
Message-ID: <4A1619A9.3040706@gmail.com>

I had shown some previous data on 74HC390 dividers (10 Mhz input and 
using them to generate 5 Mhz, 1 Mhz, and 1 PPS) and John had asked about 
some longer term data.

So here it is, 100K ADEV with the 5370B on internal clock

Mean nS, Min nS, Max nS,  STD pS
77.3434   76.82   77.83   213
76.9330   75.53   78.75   1000  (temp dropped from 72 to 50 degrees F)
76.4866   74.57   77.42   614 (brought temp back up to 72 degrees F)
76.8918   76.50    77.36   136
76.6724   76.33   77.09    149
75.9256   75.45   76.39   187 (restart - power failure)
75.8951   75.41   76.29   146
75.9744   75.64   76.31   98.1
75.8360   75.37   76.66   215
75.8356   75.33   76.25   168
75.9557   75.59   76.45   152
76.0029   75.45   76.41   159
75.7823   75.18   76.46   274
75.3876   74.55   76.60   455 (temp change, ran off UPS for 6 hours 
during power failure)
75.1206   74.55   75.80   237
74.9616   74.45   75.51   204
74.8877   74.37   75.43   200
74.8367   74.39   75.47   186
74.8324   74.36   75.39   183
75.0442   74.41   76.17   378 (temp to 45F at night, to 80F in day, 
inside A/C turned off)
74.8725   74.39   75.62   219
74.5939   73.85   75.61   333
74.3250   74.00   74.82   144
74.3062   73.89   74.79   132
74.1885   73.75   74.65   167
74.0325   73.14   74.63   369 (no A/C again)
74.2630   73.48   74.65   195
74.2611   73.34   74.79   246

and I quit recording - I am going on vacation...

When I get back, I will start another identical test on another 
identical divider.

Brian KD4FM






From drhydro at qwest.net  Fri May 22 04:28:51 2009
From: drhydro at qwest.net (Paul Nelson)
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:28:51 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A162A03.3080008@qwest.net>

Well, I found some stuff on this clock... from a few handwritten notes I 
made several years ago, there exist both types; those that have an 
internal timebase, and those that require an external timebase. The 
clock that I can put my hands on right now is an A15586; I have a couple 
more. The timebase is an E13832-P1, and it consists of a TCXO with an 
output frequency of 983.040 Hz and a couple of chips (CD4013 and CD4020) 
which output a two-phase square wave signal at 60 Hz to drive the 
stepper motor inside the clock. Basic wiring is as follows- there are 
usually two connectors on the clock, one of which matches the connector 
on the timebase- a 12-pin circular connector, MS27034H12B12PN. The 
other, larger, connector is for the ARINC bus stuff.

I've had all of mine working with that timebase.

If your clock has an internal timebase, it should work simply by 
powering it with 24v on pins 3 and 4. I don't know which ones do and 
which ones don't- there's a whole bunch of variations.

Pin        Clock                        Time base
1            5v lighting                    n/c
2            5v lighting                    n/c
3            +16to32v ----------->   +16to32v
4             -16to32v ----------->    -16to32v
5            Case gnd ------------>   Case gnd
6            Ph 1 drive sig in --->    Ph 1 drive sig out- capt clock
7            Ph 2 drive sig in --->    Ph 2 drive sig out- capt clock
8                                                    Ph 1 drive sig out- 
F/O clock
9                                                    Ph 2 drive sig out- 
F/O clock
10                                                  Ph 1 drive sig out- 
F/E clock
11                                                  Ph 2 drive sig out- 
F/E clock
12                                                   spare

time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:50:33 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Robert Atkinson <robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> To: crushin at ieee.org, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> 	measurement	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <240600.56920.qm at web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Hi Charles,
> I had a dig, but could only find info on the current clocks that receive time info on an ARINC 429 serial bus, and an earlier hybrid LCD / mechanical model that needs an external 1PPS (I'd like one of those).
> I've never seen an aircraft clock that needed an external 60Hz signal. Unfortunatly Hayden have been bought up and no longer list instruments. Keep Googling!
>
> Robert G8RPI
>
> --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> From: Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
>> Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:45 AM
>> Greetings To All,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is
>> off-topic.? I have just
>> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively
>> identified as coming from
>> a Boeing 747.? It's way cool looking and would make a
>> perfect dust collector
>> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
>>
>>  
>>
>> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on
>> the back, but no
>> indication of what the pinout may be.? The unit is
>> identified as:
>>
>>  
>>
>> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
>>
>>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
>>
>>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
>>
>>  Cheshire, Conn.
>>
>>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
>>
>>  
>>
>> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but
>> could only find the
>> reference to the 747.? Does anyone have any
>> information about these clocks,
>> or can someone point me in the right direction?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> WA5MUV
>>
>>     

-- 
Paul Nelson W5GNF              "When I go, I want to go quietly, in my
Ames, Iowa                     sleep, like my grandfather- not 
Senior Engineer (Retired)      screaming, like his passengers."
Sauer-Danfoss Company
(DrHydro at qwest.net)
                               "More hay, Trigger?"
 ex-Cessna 140 N77149 (sigh)   "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed."



From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Fri May 22 06:39:52 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 06:39:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51
Message-ID: <885869.73487.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi Paul,
Glad I didn't say no aircraft clocks use a 60Hz timebase! I wonder if they used a commercial (non-aircraft) movement? The design seems to break the normal aircraft design premise that a single failure should not cause the loss of more than one duplicated system. Unless the clocks have some kind of back-up osvillator loss the the clock source would kill all three clocks. In the UK regulations, clocks sort of slip through a gap. You have to carry one, but it doesn't HAVE to be specifically approved for aircraft use. We used to gent them repaired by a local clockmaker.

Regards,
Robert. 

--- On Fri, 22/5/09, Paul Nelson <drhydro at qwest.net> wrote:

> From: Paul Nelson <drhydro at qwest.net>
> Subject: Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51
> To: time-nuts at febo.com, "Robert Atkinson" <robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk>, "Charles Rushing" <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>, "Bill Hawkins" <bill at iaxs.net>
> Date: Friday, 22 May, 2009, 5:28 AM
> Well, I found some stuff on this
> clock... from a few handwritten notes I made several years
> ago, there exist both types; those that have an internal
> timebase, and those that require an external timebase. The
> clock that I can put my hands on right now is an A15586; I
> have a couple more. The timebase is an E13832-P1, and it
> consists of a TCXO with an output frequency of 983.040 Hz
> and a couple of chips (CD4013 and CD4020) which output a
> two-phase square wave signal at 60 Hz to drive the stepper
> motor inside the clock. Basic wiring is as follows- there
> are usually two connectors on the clock, one of which
> matches the connector on the timebase- a 12-pin circular
> connector, MS27034H12B12PN. The other, larger, connector is
> for the ARINC bus stuff.
> 
> I've had all of mine working with that timebase.
> 
> If your clock has an internal timebase, it should work
> simply by powering it with 24v on pins 3 and 4. I don't know
> which ones do and which ones don't- there's a whole bunch of
> variations.
> 
> Pin? ? ? ? Clock? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? Time base
> 1? ? ? ? ? ? 5v
> lighting? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? n/c
> 2? ? ? ? ? ? 5v
> lighting? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? n/c
> 3? ? ? ? ? ? +16to32v
> ----------->???+16to32v
> 4? ? ? ? ?
> ???-16to32v ----------->? ?
> -16to32v
> 5? ? ? ? ? ? Case gnd
> ------------>???Case gnd
> 6? ? ? ? ? ? Ph 1 drive sig
> in --->? ? Ph 1 drive sig out- capt clock
> 7? ? ? ? ? ? Ph 2 drive sig
> in --->? ? Ph 2 drive sig out- capt clock
> 8? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? Ph 1 drive sig out- F/O clock
> 9? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? Ph 2 drive sig out- F/O clock
> 10? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? Ph 1 drive sig out- F/E clock
> 11? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? Ph 2 drive sig out- F/E clock
> 12? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ???spare
> 
> time-nuts-request at febo.com
> wrote:
> > 
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:50:33 +0000 (GMT)
> > From: Robert Atkinson <robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> > To: crushin at ieee.org,
> Discussion of precise time and frequency
> > ??? measurement???
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> > Message-ID: <240600.56920.qm at web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Charles,
> > I had a dig, but could only find info on the current
> clocks that receive time info on an ARINC 429 serial bus,
> and an earlier hybrid LCD / mechanical model that needs an
> external 1PPS (I'd like one of those).
> > I've never seen an aircraft clock that needed an
> external 60Hz signal. Unfortunatly Hayden have been bought
> up and no longer list instruments. Keep Googling!
> > 
> > Robert G8RPI
> > 
> > --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
> wrote:
> > 
> >???
> >> From: Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
> >> Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> >> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >> Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:45 AM
> >> Greetings To All,
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is
> >> off-topic.? I have just
> >> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've
> tentatively
> >> identified as coming from
> >> a Boeing 747.? It's way cool looking and would
> make a
> >> perfect dust collector
> >> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock
> connector on
> >> the back, but no
> >> indication of what the pinout may be.? The unit
> is
> >> identified as:
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
> >> 
> >>? MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
> >> 
> >>? NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
> >> 
> >>? Cheshire, Conn.
> >> 
> >>? MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> I've searched the Net for technical documentation,
> but
> >> could only find the
> >> reference to the 747.? Does anyone have any
> >> information about these clocks,
> >> or can someone point me in the right direction?
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> Many thanks in advance.
> >> 
> >>? 
> >> Chuck
> >> 
> >> WA5MUV
> >> 
> >>? ???
> 
> -- Paul Nelson W5GNF? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? "When I go, I want to go quietly, in my
> Ames, Iowa? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ???sleep, like my grandfather-
> not Senior Engineer (Retired)? ? ? screaming,
> like his passengers."
> Sauer-Danfoss Company
> (DrHydro at qwest.net)
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? "More hay,
> Trigger?"
> ex-Cessna 140 N77149 (sigh)???"No thanks,
> Roy, I'm stuffed."
> 
> 


      


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 08:55:00 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:55:00 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51
In-Reply-To: <885869.73487.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
References: <885869.73487.qm@web27101.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A166864.1010603@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Robert Atkinson skrev:
> Hi Paul,
> Glad I didn't say no aircraft clocks use a 60Hz timebase!
 > I wonder if they used a commercial (non-aircraft) movement?
> The design seems to break the normal aircraft design premise that a single
> failure should not cause the loss of more than one duplicated system.

I can't think of a pilot not carrying his own redundant clock at his or 
her wrist. Also, the navigation computer has its own clock, which is the 
subsystem which depends most of time I would suspect, beyond what is 
needed for communication with the tower for movement coordinations.

Cheers,
Magnus


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Fri May 22 17:13:12 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:13:12 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905211732u12327815pa67ee46e00c6e5ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>

One comment, and one idea on airflow...

I've noticed that none of my high-end frequency standards use
fans at all. That includes every Rb, Cs, and H-maser. This does
not mean they are all cool to the touch, but my guess is it's better
to allow temperature gradients to exist than use fans in an attempt
to even then out.

I'm sure this requires no small effort in thermal engineering on
their part. But it also has the side effect of 100% quiet instruments
and no mechanical wear-out mechanism. Of course, you don't
want to exceed a high temp limit on any one component, but the
point is passive heat transfer with metal seems to be the better
choice than active transfer with air and fans.

Now, a suggestion for the 5370 question.

I'm sure we could discuss for some time what airflow is too much
or too little or where to place the thermal probes or how to take IR
scans or how then interpret them. But it seems to me the bottom
line is not what the temp is inside, but how the unit performs; how
stable the time interval counter is. voltco; tempco; airco?

It doesn't matter if you measure a +10C change inside but it has
little effect on the jitter or accuracy of the counter. Similarly, if a
tiny +1 C change at some special point causes many picoseconds
of drift then that's something more to worry about.

So my suggestion is for someone to take a 5370 and set it up to
take continuous phase measurements between two stable inputs
(or delay generator, or a tee from a common reference) and then,
vary the airflow from way too low to way too fast. You could do
this in steps every 10 minutes, or linearly over hours, etc.

The plot you get is then simply accuracy (or jitter or drift) versus
air flow. This plot, more than one or more raw temperature probe
measurements or IR pictures, will tell you what the ideal range of
air flow is. I have no idea what you'd find. But it would settle the
question about fan replacement for the 5370.

/tvb



From richard at karlquist.com  Fri May 22 17:39:59 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:39:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905211732u12327815pa67ee46e00c6e5ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>
Message-ID: <af1b3e24aac3da73a67d9b586a3cc801.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>

Tom Van Baak wrote:
> One comment, and one idea on airflow...
>
> I've noticed that none of my high-end frequency standards use
> fans at all. That includes every Rb, Cs, and H-maser. This does
> not mean they are all cool to the touch, but my guess is it's better
> to allow temperature gradients to exist than use fans in an attempt
> to even then out.
>
> I'm sure this requires no small effort in thermal engineering on
> their part. But it also has the side effect of 100% quiet instruments
> and no mechanical wear-out mechanism. Of course, you don't
> want to exceed a high temp limit on any one component, but the
> point is passive heat transfer with metal seems to be the better
> choice than active transfer with air and fans.

Maybe I can put this into perspective with my experience
on the 5071A team.  First of all, the 5071A has to be able to
run on a battery, so you can do the flying clock experiment.
This limits the power consumption to a few dozen watts.  Considering
the size of the 5071A, that little amount of power consumption
has plenty of heat sinking and doesn't need a fan.  The power
supply uses highly efficient Vicor modules.  The one thing that
is probably not so well designed is the AC power transformer.
However, it gets a pass, because it doesn't affect power consumption
when on battery, and it is perfectly OK for the transformer to
cook itself as long as the insulation is rated for the temperature
rise.  Other than that, there is really no way a transformer can
fail.  Another thing is that if any fan were used, it would raise
the issue of microphonics in the 10811 oscillator, which is a serious
issue in the 8662A signal generator.  Len Cutler would have
insisted on a microphonic witch hunt if we had used a fan, so we
were all glad we didn't have to go through that.  The RF circuits
were in machined boxes that conducted away heat pretty well.  They
had a modest internal temperature rise.

Regarding the comments below on the 5370:  there are always two
questions with temperature:  meeting spec and reliability.  Instruments
vary as to which is a bigger issue.  Some have temperature
proof measurement techniques that will work virtually until
something burns up, so you can get lulled into a false sense of
security just because the instrument meets spec.

Rick Karlquist N6RK
Member of 5071A design team, circa 1992.




>
> Now, a suggestion for the 5370 question.
>
> I'm sure we could discuss for some time what airflow is too much
> or too little or where to place the thermal probes or how to take IR
> scans or how then interpret them. But it seems to me the bottom
> line is not what the temp is inside, but how the unit performs; how
> stable the time interval counter is. voltco; tempco; airco?
>
> It doesn't matter if you measure a +10C change inside but it has
> little effect on the jitter or accuracy of the counter. Similarly, if a
> tiny +1 C change at some special point causes many picoseconds
> of drift then that's something more to worry about.
>
> So my suggestion is for someone to take a 5370 and set it up to
> take continuous phase measurements between two stable inputs
> (or delay generator, or a tee from a common reference) and then,
> vary the airflow from way too low to way too fast. You could do
> this in steps every 10 minutes, or linearly over hours, etc.
>
> The plot you get is then simply accuracy (or jitter or drift) versus
> air flow. This plot, more than one or more raw temperature probe
> measurements or IR pictures, will tell you what the ideal range of
> air flow is. I have no idea what you'd find. But it would settle the
> question about fan replacement for the 5370.
>
> /tvb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>




From dforbes at dakotacom.net  Fri May 22 17:42:15 2009
From: dforbes at dakotacom.net (David Forbes)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:42:15 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W29AC01B709849429
	9B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>
	<f616e0f80905211732u12327815pa67ee46e00c6e5ab@mail.gmail.com>
	<4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>
Message-ID: <a06240500c63c93a52597@[192.168.0.24]>

At 10:13 AM -0700 5/22/09, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>One comment, and one idea on airflow...
>
>
>I'm sure we could discuss for some time what airflow is too much
>or too little or where to place the thermal probes or how to take IR
>scans or how then interpret them. But it seems to me the bottom
>line is not what the temp is inside, but how the unit performs; how
>stable the time interval counter is. voltco; tempco; airco?
>
>
>/tvb
>

Tom,

The fans in a 5370B have nothing to do with stability; if anything, 
they make it worse.

The reason for the fans is to prevent premature failures of the 
silicon devices due to thermal degradation. The life of a silicon 
chip is halved for every 10C temperature increase, more or less.

In a world of perfect thermal engineering, the chips would be 
attached to a metal plate that is kept at a constant temperature. But 
that's impractical for cost, weight and maintenance reasons.

Given that many of these ECL chips are no longer made, keeping them 
cool for long life is of utmost importance.
-- 

--David Forbes, Tucson, AZ
http://www.cathodecorner.com/



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 22 18:01:48 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:01:48 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 2009 10:13:12 MST."
	<4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52> 
Message-ID: <9716.1243015308@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B at pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:

>I'm sure this requires no small effort in thermal engineering on
>their part.

The major part of this effort was to reduce the power usage to
maximize battery lifetime.

>The plot you get is then simply accuracy (or jitter or drift) versus
>air flow. This plot, more than one or more raw temperature probe
>measurements or IR pictures, will tell you what the ideal range of
>air flow is. I have no idea what you'd find. But it would settle the
>question about fan replacement for the 5370.

Its a good idea, but it does not resolve the reliability issue.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From crushin2000 at austin.rr.com  Fri May 22 18:11:39 2009
From: crushin2000 at austin.rr.com (Charles Rushing)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:11:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51
In-Reply-To: <4A162A03.3080008@qwest.net>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<4A162A03.3080008@qwest.net>
Message-ID: <000001c9db08$c154ef00$43fecd00$@rr.com>

Excellent Paul!  Many thanks for taking the time to prepare this data for
me.  I've no idea which variation mine is, but I guess I can assume (for
now) that it doesn't require an external timebase because there's only one
connector on the back.

I'll hook up power and see what happens.  As soon as the smoke clears I'll
let you know the outcome.  Heh.

Again many thanks.

Chuck
WA5MUV


-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Nelson [mailto:drhydro at qwest.net] 
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 11:29 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com; Robert Atkinson; Charles Rushing; Bill Hawkins
Subject: Re: time-nuts Digest, Vol 58, Issue 51

Well, I found some stuff on this clock... from a few handwritten notes I 
made several years ago, there exist both types; those that have an 
internal timebase, and those that require an external timebase. The 
clock that I can put my hands on right now is an A15586; I have a couple 
more. The timebase is an E13832-P1, and it consists of a TCXO with an 
output frequency of 983.040 Hz and a couple of chips (CD4013 and CD4020) 
which output a two-phase square wave signal at 60 Hz to drive the 
stepper motor inside the clock. Basic wiring is as follows- there are 
usually two connectors on the clock, one of which matches the connector 
on the timebase- a 12-pin circular connector, MS27034H12B12PN. The 
other, larger, connector is for the ARINC bus stuff.

I've had all of mine working with that timebase.

If your clock has an internal timebase, it should work simply by 
powering it with 24v on pins 3 and 4. I don't know which ones do and 
which ones don't- there's a whole bunch of variations.

Pin        Clock                        Time base
1            5v lighting                    n/c
2            5v lighting                    n/c
3            +16to32v ----------->   +16to32v
4             -16to32v ----------->    -16to32v
5            Case gnd ------------>   Case gnd
6            Ph 1 drive sig in --->    Ph 1 drive sig out- capt clock
7            Ph 2 drive sig in --->    Ph 2 drive sig out- capt clock
8                                                    Ph 1 drive sig out- 
F/O clock
9                                                    Ph 2 drive sig out- 
F/O clock
10                                                  Ph 1 drive sig out- 
F/E clock
11                                                  Ph 2 drive sig out- 
F/E clock
12                                                   spare

time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 17:50:33 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Robert Atkinson <robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
> To: crushin at ieee.org, Discussion of precise time and frequency
> 	measurement	<time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <240600.56920.qm at web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> Hi Charles,
> I had a dig, but could only find info on the current clocks that receive
time info on an ARINC 429 serial bus, and an earlier hybrid LCD / mechanical
model that needs an external 1PPS (I'd like one of those).
> I've never seen an aircraft clock that needed an external 60Hz signal.
Unfortunatly Hayden have been bought up and no longer list instruments. Keep
Googling!
>
> Robert G8RPI
>
> --- On Thu, 21/5/09, Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com> wrote:
>
>   
>> From: Charles Rushing <crushin2000 at austin.rr.com>
>> Subject: [time-nuts] 747 Chronometer
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Date: Thursday, 21 May, 2009, 7:45 AM
>> Greetings To All,
>>
>>  
>>
>> Please accept my apologies in advance if this is
>> off-topic.? I have just
>> acquired an aircraft clock, which I've tentatively
>> identified as coming from
>> a Boeing 747.? It's way cool looking and would make a
>> perfect dust collector
>> in my ham shack if I could only power it up.
>>
>>  
>>
>> There is a multi-pin military-style twist-lock connector on
>> the back, but no
>> indication of what the pinout may be.? The unit is
>> identified as:
>>
>>  
>>
>> "CLOCK, 3" 24 HOUR GMT ELECTRONIC
>>
>>  MFD BY A.W. HAYDON CO. PRODUCTS
>>
>>  NO. AMER. PHILIPS CONTROLS CORP.
>>
>>  Cheshire, Conn.
>>
>>  MFR'S. PT. NO. A15551-P1"
>>
>>  
>>
>> I've searched the Net for technical documentation, but
>> could only find the
>> reference to the 747.? Does anyone have any
>> information about these clocks,
>> or can someone point me in the right direction?
>>
>>  
>>
>> Many thanks in advance.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>> WA5MUV
>>
>>     

-- 
Paul Nelson W5GNF              "When I go, I want to go quietly, in my
Ames, Iowa                     sleep, like my grandfather- not 
Senior Engineer (Retired)      screaming, like his passengers."
Sauer-Danfoss Company
(DrHydro at qwest.net)
                               "More hay, Trigger?"
 ex-Cessna 140 N77149 (sigh)   "No thanks, Roy, I'm stuffed."



From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 22 18:21:00 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:21:00 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1262.1242982513.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1262.1242982513.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W59049FD49AE9EC2FA1474CE560@phx.gbl>


When I swapped my 5370A AC fans for DC fans I was concerned that the inverter in the fan motors might have some effect on the performance of the instrument... after all,  it is measuring stuff at the part per trillion level.

I was rather surprised to see that,  if anything,  the internal jitter went down a couple of picoseconds (taking the standard deviation of 10,000 samples of the internal reference).  Granted, it is a number that tends to bounce around quite a bit.  Both units seemed to drop a couple if picoseconds (an improvement of 10-15 percent).  I did not try putting the old fans back in to see if the jitter increased again.

----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 22 18:31:25 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:31:25 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 2009 18:21:00 GMT."
	<BLU125-W59049FD49AE9EC2FA1474CE560@phx.gbl> 
Message-ID: <9923.1243017085@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <BLU125-W59049FD49AE9EC2FA1474CE560 at phx.gbl>, Mark Sims writes:

>I was rather surprised to see that,  if anything,  the internal jitter went
> down a couple of picoseconds 

That could easily be reduced microphonics in the OCXO because the new
fan does not rattle around as much.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri May 22 18:58:50 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:58:50 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Message from "Rick Karlquist" <richard@karlquist.com> of "Fri,
	22 May 2009 10:39:59 PDT."
	<af1b3e24aac3da73a67d9b586a3cc801.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> 
Message-ID: <20090522185851.4137DBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


richard at karlquist.com said:
> First of all, the 5071A has to be able to run on a battery, so you can
> do the flying clock experiment.

Did you have any trouble convincing the airlines and/or FAA that it was safe 
to take an atomic clock on a plane?

I'd be more worried about the big batteries than the cesium.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 19:06:08 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:06:08 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <af1b3e24aac3da73a67d9b586a3cc801.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
References: <mailman.1251.1242950065.2451.time-nuts@febo.com><BLU125-W29AC01B7098494299B87C3CE560@phx.gbl>	<f616e0f80905211732u12327815pa67ee46e00c6e5ab@mail.gmail.com>	<4267588CDD7544D48A9A119584228C0B@pc52>
	<af1b3e24aac3da73a67d9b586a3cc801.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <4A16F7A0.3020905@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi!

> Regarding the comments below on the 5370:  there are always two
> questions with temperature:  meeting spec and reliability.  Instruments
> vary as to which is a bigger issue.  Some have temperature
> proof measurement techniques that will work virtually until
> something burns up, so you can get lulled into a false sense of
> security just because the instrument meets spec.

I think most people would agree that reliability comes in the first 
room, specs in the second. It is fairly meaningless to have super-spec 
when you know that your box is approaching dysfunctional at a high 
speed, and you don't know when what effect will kick in to fiddle with 
your performance before it says "poof" on you.

Infact, cooling (for reliability) and performance to some degree can 
become troublesome, as the noise of the airflow and vortexes can affect 
performance and forced air onto ovens will make very efficient 
connection between ambient temperature and oven shield, so any shift 
there will quickly and effectively cool or heat the oven. Self convected 
boxes has longer time constants than forced air boxes.

Many times when I "investigate" the design of boxes I react on their 
inability to design for reliability. I react on very basic design errors 
such as mechanical mounting of heavy components (solder is not long term 
stable fixing when heat and vibration comes into play) and heat (when 
the heat sink forms a heat-pocket into which all heat gathers and stays 
rather than distribute the heat sources so dissapation through self 
convection becomes easy is just another example).

Repairing failed gear can be rewarding in terms of understanding failure 
modes. Becoming experienced in various forms of failures is as important 
as understanding how to perform the task of the project.

Cheers,
Magnus


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri May 22 20:11:32 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:11:32 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Message from David Forbes <dforbes@dakotacom.net> of "Fri,
	22 May 2009 10:42:15 PDT." <a06240500c63c93a52597@[192.168.0.24]> 
Message-ID: <20090522201133.80217BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> The reason for the fans is to prevent premature failures of the
> silicon devices due to thermal degradation. The life of a silicon
> chip is halved for every 10C temperature increase, more or less. 

I was going to make a similar comment, but got sidetracked poking around 
google.  I didn't find a good/clean article.  Does anybody have a good URL?

Doubling every 10C is the normal recipe for chemical reactions.  I think that 
translated to IC failure rate back in the old days.  Is that still correct?  
Has modern quality control tracked down and eliminated most of the 
temperature dependent failure mechanisms?

I remember reading a paper 5 or 10 years ago.  The context was disks.  I think the main failure was electronics rather than mechanical.  It really really really helped to keep them cool.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From imp at bsdimp.com  Fri May 22 20:19:30 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:19:30 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <20090522185851.4137DBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <richard@karlquist.com>
	<20090522185851.4137DBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <20090522.141930.1041738614.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <20090522185851.4137DBCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
            Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> writes:
: 
: richard at karlquist.com said:
: > First of all, the 5071A has to be able to run on a battery, so you can
: > do the flying clock experiment.
: 
: Did you have any trouble convincing the airlines and/or FAA that it was safe 
: to take an atomic clock on a plane?
: 
: I'd be more worried about the big batteries than the cesium.

Most clock flying experiments are done on military aircraft....

Warner


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 20:40:02 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 22:40:02 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <20090522201133.80217BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090522201133.80217BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A170DA2.3080201@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hal Murray skrev:
>> The reason for the fans is to prevent premature failures of the
>> silicon devices due to thermal degradation. The life of a silicon
>> chip is halved for every 10C temperature increase, more or less. 
> 
> I was going to make a similar comment, but got sidetracked poking around 
> google.  I didn't find a good/clean article.  Does anybody have a good URL?
> 
> Doubling every 10C is the normal recipe for chemical reactions.  I think that 
> translated to IC failure rate back in the old days.  Is that still correct?  
> Has modern quality control tracked down and eliminated most of the 
> temperature dependent failure mechanisms?
> 
> I remember reading a paper 5 or 10 years ago.  The context was disks.  I think the main failure was electronics rather than mechanical.  It really really really helped to keep them cool.
> 

There are being books written about this. One that I have found being a 
fairly short but useful one is the AT&T Reliability Manual. A criticism 
on reliability calculations (say from Bob Pease) is that if you remove 
protection circuits from the design, the MTBF calculations says the 
design improves (as there are fewer devices contributing their FITS) 
while the actual design is less reliable as protection would have 
avoided premature failure. This criticism is valid only if blindfolded 
beleif in MTBF is allowed to rule the judgement of reliability, since 
the methodology assumes otherwise sound engineering practices to avoid 
over-voltage, over-current, over-heating and other forms of excess 
stress that is within the limits for which the design is intended to 
operate and be stored in.

Anyway, there have been much research into the reliability of electrical 
devices and in general, keeping a sufficiently low temperature is among 
the things which improves reliability. For silicon the junction 
temperature limit needs to be ensured by having the component ambient 
temperature limited (usually to 70 degrees as measured inbetween two 
DIP-packages for intance), which has yeat another temperature drop into 
the (self) convected air and the ambient temperature of an rack of 
electronic (as measured 1 meter from the floor, 3 dm from the rack) to a 
maximum of 45 degrees. The 19" rack standard was originally designed for 
a total of 300 W per rack, so self convection up through the installed 
boxes would work. Having 1-10 kW per rack is not uncommon these days, so 
forced convection needs to be done, which puts requirement on different 
manufactures to have a common air-flow dicipline, which also needs to 
consider that no heat may be put out on the front for safety reasons 
(you shall never hesetate to hit the on/off switch).

It is unfortunatly common to see racks where one box has an airflow 
left-to-right while ontop of it is one with right-to-left and the rack 
has very narrow space between the side of the boxes and the sides, so 
effectively the boxes feeds each other with pre-heated air until one of 
them dies. Another example where a particular switch which had a 
left-to-right airflow, which was sitting at the top of a line of 
computing rack for a parallel computing setup. They where feeding a step 
wise increasing temperature air flow going through all the racks. The 
last switched died prematurely.

In parallel computing heat management and power management can be a much 
more troublesome issue than load balancing between the CPUs, which is 
the kind of luxury problem you can deal with at a later stage.

Cray was a refrigeration company, which also delivered alot of CPU 
cycles along the way.

Cheers,
Magnus


From dforbes at dakotacom.net  Fri May 22 20:44:39 2009
From: dforbes at dakotacom.net (David Forbes)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 13:44:39 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <20090522201133.80217BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20090522201133.80217BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <4A170EB7.2030903@dakotacom.net>

Hal Murray wrote:
>> The reason for the fans is to prevent premature failures of the
>> silicon devices due to thermal degradation. The life of a silicon
>> chip is halved for every 10C temperature increase, more or less. 
> 
> I was going to make a similar comment, but got sidetracked poking around 
> google.  I didn't find a good/clean article.  Does anybody have a good URL?
> 
> Doubling every 10C is the normal recipe for chemical reactions.  I think that 
> translated to IC failure rate back in the old days.  Is that still correct?  
> Has modern quality control tracked down and eliminated most of the 
> temperature dependent failure mechanisms?

Hal,

The old standby is MIL-HDBK-217F:

http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/basic_profile.cfm?ident_number=53939

It is quaint, but they based it on years of experience. They did a lot of 
testing of the chips and created mathematical models that worked as well as any 
model can, given the clumpiness of failures.

P.5-13 gives the temperature failure rate multiplier for ECL chips:

25C  0.10
45C  0.27
55C  0.42
65C  0.63
75C  0.94
85C  1.4
95C  1.9

So my off-the-cuff guess of failures doubling for every 10C rise is not too wrong.

--David Forbes, Tucson



From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 22 20:54:47 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:54:47 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1269.1243018734.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1269.1243018734.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W29EB997D476F675425CAB2CE560@phx.gbl>


The power dissipated in a modern CPU chip (watts per sq cm) far exceeds that of a cooking hotplate.  There are some videos on YouTube showing CPU's literally exploding when they loose cooling for just a short time.  ECL is a rather chilly iceberg in comparison...

----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From richard at karlquist.com  Fri May 22 21:03:19 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:03:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <20090522.141930.1041738614.imp@bsdimp.com>
References: <richard@karlquist.com>
	<20090522185851.4137DBCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
	<20090522.141930.1041738614.imp@bsdimp.com>
Message-ID: <971f24636bd13158d9fe412ec6c9c885.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>

M. Warner Losh wrote:
> In message: <20090522185851.4137DBCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
>             Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> writes:
> :
> : richard at karlquist.com said:
>> : Did you have any trouble convincing the airlines and/or FAA that it was
> safe
> : to take an atomic clock on a plane?

I never heard about any issues of hand carried atomic clocks.
The old photos of Len Cutler watching the airline porters carrying
the clock up the stairs to the plane give the impression that
the airline was honored to be asked to participate.
There is a very long story about this that boiled to the
the idea that the cesium beam tube itself has been approved as
a shipping container for the cesium.  If you have ever picked
up a cesium beam tube, you will appreciate that it is built
like a battleship.  Thus it requires no special
shipping container for either a replacement tube or an instrument.
The tube says "cesium device; nonradioactive".

Rick Karlquist N6RK




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 22 21:04:19 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:04:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 2009 22:40:02 +0200."
	<4A170DA2.3080201@rubidium.dyndns.org> 
Message-ID: <17905.1243026259@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <4A170DA2.3080201 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>Hal Murray skrev:

>There are being books written about this. One that I have found being a 
>fairly short but useful one is the AT&T Reliability Manual.

It is worth pointing out that a very large fraction of all electronics
failures are not semiconductors but electrolytic capacitors.

People are often astonished when I tell them, that a "long life"
electrolytic capacitor is one which will last one year at its rated
temperature, whereas a standard consumer-grade will last only a
month.

To add insult to injury, many of them have rated temperatures of
only 85?C and much of the discount electrocrap uses 55?C grade.
 
Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri May 22 21:07:10 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:07:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 2009 14:03:19 MST."
	<971f24636bd13158d9fe412ec6c9c885.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net> 
Message-ID: <17941.1243026430@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <971f24636bd13158d9fe412ec6c9c885.squirrel at webmail.sonic.net>, "Rick
 Karlquist" writes:

>The old photos of Len Cutler watching the airline porters carrying
>the clock up the stairs to the plane give the impression that
>the airline was honored to be asked to participate.

According to a SAS employee who was involved, HP paid for tourist
class tickets for the personel, but was given the entire front 1st
class row & VIP treatment, including access to 110VAC power.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Fri May 22 21:17:56 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:17:56 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 8662 question Re: 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A
 fans)
In-Reply-To: <af1b3e24aac3da73a67d9b586a3cc801.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>
Message-ID: <C63C6494.7F30%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/22/09 10:39 AM, "Rick Karlquist" <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:
  Considering
  Other than that, there is really no way a transformer can
> fail.  Another thing is that if any fan were used, it would raise
> the issue of microphonics in the 10811 oscillator, which is a serious
> issue in the 8662A signal generator.

Is this also an issue in the 8663A?

Jim
(who uses 8663A's as a low phase noise source for testing deep space
transponders)



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 21:36:14 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:36:14 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <17905.1243026259@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <17905.1243026259@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A171ACE.1050709@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Poul-Henning Kamp skrev:
> In message <4A170DA2.3080201 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus Danielson writes:
>> Hal Murray skrev:
> 
>> There are being books written about this. One that I have found being a 
>> fairly short but useful one is the AT&T Reliability Manual.
> 
> It is worth pointing out that a very large fraction of all electronics
> failures are not semiconductors but electrolytic capacitors.
> 
> People are often astonished when I tell them, that a "long life"
> electrolytic capacitor is one which will last one year at its rated
> temperature, whereas a standard consumer-grade will last only a
> month.
> 
> To add insult to injury, many of them have rated temperatures of
> only 85?C and much of the discount electrocrap uses 55?C grade.

For modern consumer crap, yes... for traditional pro-gear caps may 
eventually need replacement, but if you look at them as standard 10000 
km replacement parts it becomes less of an issue and just a matter of 
remember to do it.

My experience from well-designed pro-gear is that caps could very well 
survive but a silicon device might eventually fail. Vibration or 
mechanical movement wear is another issue for long-term reliability 
issue, where components detach from solder and move in tunnels of solder 
at the end, connecting part of the time and only fractional at some time.

Modern electrolytics is a different story altogher from traditional 
electrolytics. My stationary computer failed in the PSU. Sure enougth it 
was caps. But looking carefully at the errupted caps you could also see 
that even through there is a fan there, the air flows over the top and 
often the caps sits next to the switch transistors and their heat sink.
What else to expect? The same electronics but spread over twice the 
volume and with the electronics sitting more in a "wind-tunnel" than 
forming a side of it would have made it last longer. The compactness of 
todays electronics often come at the price of reliability. The caps is 
smaller in physical size for the same reason, and guess what suffer. The 
electrolytics becomes more critical, and hence the issue of stealing the 
formula, where as the traditional electrolytics was a different story...

Cheers,
Magnus


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 22:02:52 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 00:02:52 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W29EB997D476F675425CAB2CE560@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1269.1243018734.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W29EB997D476F675425CAB2CE560@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A17210C.50701@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Mark Sims skrev:
> The power dissipated in a modern CPU chip (watts per sq cm) far exceeds that of a cooking hotplate.  There are some videos on YouTube showing CPU's literally exploding when they loose cooling for just a short time.  ECL is a rather chilly iceberg in comparison...

The Cray-1, where the core is ECL only, uses the board ground plane to 
connect out to the mountings which is infact cooling walls called cold 
bar. They had problems to manufacture those in aluminium to hold the 
circulating freon properly.

The power was fed to the supplies under the seats in 12-phase 400 Hz AC 
(12 phases after transformer, 3 phases from power-converter) such that 
after rectifying only very little filtering is needed to kill the 
ripple. While the hungriest modules was consuming 65 W, density wise a 
modern CPU puts it to shame.

The Cray-3 on the other hand... the modules was just bathing naked into 
cooling fluid.

Cheers,
Magnus


From richard at karlquist.com  Fri May 22 22:40:08 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Rick Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:40:08 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <17905.1243026259@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <17905.1243026259@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <2546109dce7c051c6c9a24651528f4be.squirrel@webmail.sonic.net>

Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> It is worth pointing out that a very large fraction of all electronics
> failures are not semiconductors but electrolytic capacitors.
>
> People are often astonished when I tell them, that a "long life"
> electrolytic capacitor is one which will last one year at its rated
> temperature, whereas a standard consumer-grade will last only a
> month.

Len Cutler apparently knew that.  On the 5071A project, we had long
meetings about which capacitor to use in the power supply filter.  Len
wanted to use a mil spec tantalum for reliability, but the cost was
astonomical for the large capacitance we needed.  We talked him into using
a really good aluminum one.

Rick Karlquist




From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 22 23:01:38 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:01:38 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1273.1243026446.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1273.1243026446.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560@phx.gbl>


Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and in PC power supplies can be traced to a case of industrial espionage gone wrong.  Somebody sole the formula for the caps from a Japanese company and sold it to a competitor.  That competitor allegedly cranked out over a billion of the caps and cornered the market with their cheap prices.  Unfortunately the formula that was stolen was missing a key ingredient...  voila,  over a billion capacitors in a zillion PC's...  and every one of them is destined to fail.  The failure mode is goo oozing out the top of the cap.

----------------------------------------
Modern electrolytics is a different story altogher from traditional electrolytics. My stationary computer failed in the PSU. Sure enougth it was caps. But looking carefully at the errupted caps...
_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 22 23:33:15 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:33:15 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
Message-ID: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Fellow Time-nuts,

I acquired myself two TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency dividers as soon as they 
hit the list as orderable. Tonight I had the pleasure of completing the 
first one.

For a beginner, this kit should be fairly simple. You need to have some 
ability to solder and read resistor and capacitors, even if most 
capacitors comes in separate bags (pretty neat brown bags, but hard to 
open without ripping the lid partly off). The manual could give better 
hints for the beginner, but it is nothing major at all.

Since I fail to fall into the beginner group, I must say that it was 
pretty straight forward to build it. The double-sided, silkscreened and 
plated hole PCB made this as simple as any other modern kit and it is 
easy to make the mounting look good. I was supprised how well my 
resistor-leg bending was still up to speed and accuracy as they all went 
in quickly and smoothly. Everything went very smoothly.

So, at last... everything mounted and time to power up. Without input it 
sits there quitetly. I hooked it up to the time-base output of my SR-620 
and it kicked alive directly. 10 kHz, 1 kHz, 100 Hz, 10 Hz, 1 Hz and PPS 
all just ticked away as expected. I hooked over to a 5 MHz source, the 
OCXO (TOYO oscillator of unknown specs) from an Ericsson AXE-10 station 
that I keep heated at the labbench with a BNC hanging free, and sure 
enought everything was half-rate including the PPS LED (very useful), 
but just unplugging the 5/10MHz jumper fixed that quick enought.

A few items of criticism is in place, from a practical point of view. 
The TADD-2 does not perfectly match the TAPR TADD-series box. I was able 
to sneak out the PPS through the DC input hole, and the ARM and SYNC 
LEDS is way in there, so a similar approach was not possible. The 5/10 
MHz jumper should possibly be made into a toggle-switch. None of those 
fits the casing, but using one of the DB9 holes should fit it nicely. 
The other DB9 hole could be fitted with a suitable DB9 connector for 
power. None of these things is a show-stopper, but of mild details which 
could have been made better and very simple hacks will allow for a more 
versatile setup, for those wishing to use their TADD-2 as a lab-device, 
where as for fixed setups it is of close to no consequence.

I only made a quick attempt to measure jitter, but it is way down there 
around ps or so. It was just an indicator measurement anyway. I will 
make some more propper measurements and analysis.

Regardless, I think it is a nice kit and should allow for easy 
lab-ability for most time-nuts. I particularly like the simultanous 
outputs which is jumperable to suitable outputs and the 5/10 MHz jumper. 
The PPS LED allows for a quick view and the ARM/SYNC should allow for 
synchronisation. It fairly well fills a gap in my set of gear and should 
do that for others too. Doing picket fence exercises becomes trivial 
with one of these.

Good work John, Tom and others that feel involved.

Cheers,
Magnus


From sam at canardpc.com  Fri May 22 23:38:39 2009
From: sam at canardpc.com (Samuel D. [x86/CPC])
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 01:38:39 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>

Another question about the TADD-2 PIC divider : they said on main page the
source code for the pic will be released in open source. Does anyone know if
the code is available somewhere ?


-----Message d'origine-----
De?: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la
part de Magnus Danielson
Envoy??: samedi 23 mai 2009 01:33
??: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Objet?: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider

Fellow Time-nuts,

I acquired myself two TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency dividers as soon as they 
hit the list as orderable. Tonight I had the pleasure of completing the 
first one.

For a beginner, this kit should be fairly simple. You need to have some 
ability to solder and read resistor and capacitors, even if most 
capacitors comes in separate bags (pretty neat brown bags, but hard to 
open without ripping the lid partly off). The manual could give better 
hints for the beginner, but it is nothing major at all.

Since I fail to fall into the beginner group, I must say that it was 
pretty straight forward to build it. The double-sided, silkscreened and 
plated hole PCB made this as simple as any other modern kit and it is 
easy to make the mounting look good. I was supprised how well my 
resistor-leg bending was still up to speed and accuracy as they all went 
in quickly and smoothly. Everything went very smoothly.

So, at last... everything mounted and time to power up. Without input it 
sits there quitetly. I hooked it up to the time-base output of my SR-620 
and it kicked alive directly. 10 kHz, 1 kHz, 100 Hz, 10 Hz, 1 Hz and PPS 
all just ticked away as expected. I hooked over to a 5 MHz source, the 
OCXO (TOYO oscillator of unknown specs) from an Ericsson AXE-10 station 
that I keep heated at the labbench with a BNC hanging free, and sure 
enought everything was half-rate including the PPS LED (very useful), 
but just unplugging the 5/10MHz jumper fixed that quick enought.

A few items of criticism is in place, from a practical point of view. 
The TADD-2 does not perfectly match the TAPR TADD-series box. I was able 
to sneak out the PPS through the DC input hole, and the ARM and SYNC 
LEDS is way in there, so a similar approach was not possible. The 5/10 
MHz jumper should possibly be made into a toggle-switch. None of those 
fits the casing, but using one of the DB9 holes should fit it nicely. 
The other DB9 hole could be fitted with a suitable DB9 connector for 
power. None of these things is a show-stopper, but of mild details which 
could have been made better and very simple hacks will allow for a more 
versatile setup, for those wishing to use their TADD-2 as a lab-device, 
where as for fixed setups it is of close to no consequence.

I only made a quick attempt to measure jitter, but it is way down there 
around ps or so. It was just an indicator measurement anyway. I will 
make some more propper measurements and analysis.

Regardless, I think it is a nice kit and should allow for easy 
lab-ability for most time-nuts. I particularly like the simultanous 
outputs which is jumperable to suitable outputs and the 5/10 MHz jumper. 
The PPS LED allows for a quick view and the ARM/SYNC should allow for 
synchronisation. It fairly well fills a gap in my set of gear and should 
do that for others too. Doing picket fence exercises becomes trivial 
with one of these.

Good work John, Tom and others that feel involved.

Cheers,
Magnus

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From SAIDJACK at aol.com  Sat May 23 00:13:12 2009
From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:13:12 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO for sale
Message-ID: <d16.4950b55b.37489998@aol.com>

Hi guys,
 
I have a piece of equipment for sale:
 
Sorry for the spam, but I have one GPSDO prototype unit in a very nice  
hermetically sealed enclosure for sale, please see the attached images. This  
unit seems better suited for time-nuts than Ebay.
 
This unit is potted as well. It's a FireFly-1A board with latest firmware  
attached to a very nice SC-cut high-stability Euro-can OCXO. This  
particular OCXO has very low thermal sensitivity (less than 10ppb over  temperature, 
and the unit works very well. It get's about 9ns standard deviation  on 
GPSCon.
 
The enclosure has four SMA connectors for power, antenna, lock status, and  
the 1PPS pulse from the OCXO, as well as one N connector for the 10MHz  
Sine output (+12dBm). There is also a push-button for firmware upgrades,  and 
an RS-232 connector for SCPI/NMEA/Firmware-download.
 
The enclosure is machined, and of the highest quality. Asking $290. An  
N-to-BNC adapter, and a suitable power supply are included. Also accepting  
offers :)
 
bye,
Said
-------------- next part --------------
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From rmoncur at bigpond.net.au  Sat May 23 01:16:16 2009
From: rmoncur at bigpond.net.au (Rex Moncur)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 11:16:16 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO for sale
In-Reply-To: <d16.4950b55b.37489998@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20090523011616.FEAH12625.nschwotgx03p.mx.bigpond.com@REX740>

Hi Said

I would like to take up your offer at $290 US plus postage to Australia. Let
me know how much and how best to transfer the money to you.

Kind regards
Rex Moncur VK7MO

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of SAIDJACK at aol.com
Sent: Saturday, 23 May 2009 10:13 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO for sale

Hi guys,
 
I have a piece of equipment for sale:
 
Sorry for the spam, but I have one GPSDO prototype unit in a very nice  
hermetically sealed enclosure for sale, please see the attached images. This

unit seems better suited for time-nuts than Ebay.
 
This unit is potted as well. It's a FireFly-1A board with latest firmware  
attached to a very nice SC-cut high-stability Euro-can OCXO. This  
particular OCXO has very low thermal sensitivity (less than 10ppb over
temperature, 
and the unit works very well. It get's about 9ns standard deviation  on 
GPSCon.
 
The enclosure has four SMA connectors for power, antenna, lock status, and  
the 1PPS pulse from the OCXO, as well as one N connector for the 10MHz  
Sine output (+12dBm). There is also a push-button for firmware upgrades,
and 
an RS-232 connector for SCPI/NMEA/Firmware-download.
 
The enclosure is machined, and of the highest quality. Asking $290. An  
N-to-BNC adapter, and a suitable power supply are included. Also accepting  
offers :)
 
bye,
Said



From SAIDJACK at aol.com  Sat May 23 01:49:38 2009
From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:49:38 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] GPSDO for sale
Message-ID: <cf0.59218cc7.3748b032@aol.com>

Hi guys,
 
the unit is gone already unfortunately :( It went really quick. Will try to 
get some more specials for time-nuts in the next  months.
 
Thanks for your interest!
 
bye,
Said



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 23 06:35:16 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 06:35:16 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 22 May 2009 23:01:38 GMT."
	<BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560@phx.gbl> 
Message-ID: <1581.1243060516@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560 at phx.gbl>, Mark Sims writes:
>
>Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and in PC power supplies
>can be traced to a case of industrial espionage gone wrong.  [...]

While this tale is true, the fact is that even without incompetence,
electrolytics suck.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From jra at febo.com  Sat May 23 11:07:25 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:07:25 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A17D8ED.1080507@febo.com>

Magnus, thanks for the nice comments!

Regarding the case, yes, the form factor generally matches the TADD 
enclosure, but since that's a generic box we couldn't do much about the 
LEDs or the ARM switch.  My thinking was that the LEDs could be mounted 
off-board if necessary, and I'll update the manual to indicate that.

Since the TADD enclosure has two DB-9 cutouts, one nice option (which I 
haven't tried yet) would be to wire the LED, the 5/10 MHz jumper, and 
the ARM switch connections to a DB-9 and mount that in the enclosure, 
then mount the LEDs and jumpers to a mating connector.

Finally, the manual is very much a work in progress... I had to choose 
between getting the kits put together so we could ship before the Dayton 
Hamvention, or getting fully polished docs finished, and chose to move 
ahead with the kitting.  I'll be working on improving the manual shortly.

John
----

Magnus Danielson said the following on 05/22/2009 07:33 PM:
> Fellow Time-nuts,
> 
> I acquired myself two TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency dividers as soon as they 
> hit the list as orderable. Tonight I had the pleasure of completing the 
> first one.
> 
> For a beginner, this kit should be fairly simple. You need to have some 
> ability to solder and read resistor and capacitors, even if most 
> capacitors comes in separate bags (pretty neat brown bags, but hard to 
> open without ripping the lid partly off). The manual could give better 
> hints for the beginner, but it is nothing major at all.
> 
> Since I fail to fall into the beginner group, I must say that it was 
> pretty straight forward to build it. The double-sided, silkscreened and 
> plated hole PCB made this as simple as any other modern kit and it is 
> easy to make the mounting look good. I was supprised how well my 
> resistor-leg bending was still up to speed and accuracy as they all went 
> in quickly and smoothly. Everything went very smoothly.
> 
> So, at last... everything mounted and time to power up. Without input it 
> sits there quitetly. I hooked it up to the time-base output of my SR-620 
> and it kicked alive directly. 10 kHz, 1 kHz, 100 Hz, 10 Hz, 1 Hz and PPS 
> all just ticked away as expected. I hooked over to a 5 MHz source, the 
> OCXO (TOYO oscillator of unknown specs) from an Ericsson AXE-10 station 
> that I keep heated at the labbench with a BNC hanging free, and sure 
> enought everything was half-rate including the PPS LED (very useful), 
> but just unplugging the 5/10MHz jumper fixed that quick enought.
> 
> A few items of criticism is in place, from a practical point of view. 
> The TADD-2 does not perfectly match the TAPR TADD-series box. I was able 
> to sneak out the PPS through the DC input hole, and the ARM and SYNC 
> LEDS is way in there, so a similar approach was not possible. The 5/10 
> MHz jumper should possibly be made into a toggle-switch. None of those 
> fits the casing, but using one of the DB9 holes should fit it nicely. 
> The other DB9 hole could be fitted with a suitable DB9 connector for 
> power. None of these things is a show-stopper, but of mild details which 
> could have been made better and very simple hacks will allow for a more 
> versatile setup, for those wishing to use their TADD-2 as a lab-device, 
> where as for fixed setups it is of close to no consequence.
> 
> I only made a quick attempt to measure jitter, but it is way down there 
> around ps or so. It was just an indicator measurement anyway. I will 
> make some more propper measurements and analysis.
> 
> Regardless, I think it is a nice kit and should allow for easy 
> lab-ability for most time-nuts. I particularly like the simultanous 
> outputs which is jumperable to suitable outputs and the 5/10 MHz jumper. 
> The PPS LED allows for a quick view and the ARM/SYNC should allow for 
> synchronisation. It fairly well fills a gap in my set of gear and should 
> do that for others too. Doing picket fence exercises becomes trivial 
> with one of these.
> 
> Good work John, Tom and others that feel involved.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jra at febo.com  Sat May 23 11:11:59 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:11:59 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>
Message-ID: <4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>

The code is available at http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code in both 
source and object form.  The "03-2009" version is what is shipping on 
the current TADD-2s.

The "04-2009" version is a slight update from Richard McCorkle that 
changes the way the ARM and SYNC LEDs work, and also allows selecting a 
50% duty cycle output (instead of 20%) as a compile time option. 
Otherwise there are no changes (ie, no bug fixes).

John
----

Samuel D. [x86/CPC] said the following on 05/22/2009 07:38 PM:
> Another question about the TADD-2 PIC divider : they said on main page the
> source code for the pic will be released in open source. Does anyone know if
> the code is available somewhere ?
> 
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la
> part de Magnus Danielson
> Envoy? : samedi 23 mai 2009 01:33
> ? : Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Objet : [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
> 
> Fellow Time-nuts,
> 
> I acquired myself two TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency dividers as soon as they 
> hit the list as orderable. Tonight I had the pleasure of completing the 
> first one.
> 
> For a beginner, this kit should be fairly simple. You need to have some 
> ability to solder and read resistor and capacitors, even if most 
> capacitors comes in separate bags (pretty neat brown bags, but hard to 
> open without ripping the lid partly off). The manual could give better 
> hints for the beginner, but it is nothing major at all.
> 
> Since I fail to fall into the beginner group, I must say that it was 
> pretty straight forward to build it. The double-sided, silkscreened and 
> plated hole PCB made this as simple as any other modern kit and it is 
> easy to make the mounting look good. I was supprised how well my 
> resistor-leg bending was still up to speed and accuracy as they all went 
> in quickly and smoothly. Everything went very smoothly.
> 
> So, at last... everything mounted and time to power up. Without input it 
> sits there quitetly. I hooked it up to the time-base output of my SR-620 
> and it kicked alive directly. 10 kHz, 1 kHz, 100 Hz, 10 Hz, 1 Hz and PPS 
> all just ticked away as expected. I hooked over to a 5 MHz source, the 
> OCXO (TOYO oscillator of unknown specs) from an Ericsson AXE-10 station 
> that I keep heated at the labbench with a BNC hanging free, and sure 
> enought everything was half-rate including the PPS LED (very useful), 
> but just unplugging the 5/10MHz jumper fixed that quick enought.
> 
> A few items of criticism is in place, from a practical point of view. 
> The TADD-2 does not perfectly match the TAPR TADD-series box. I was able 
> to sneak out the PPS through the DC input hole, and the ARM and SYNC 
> LEDS is way in there, so a similar approach was not possible. The 5/10 
> MHz jumper should possibly be made into a toggle-switch. None of those 
> fits the casing, but using one of the DB9 holes should fit it nicely. 
> The other DB9 hole could be fitted with a suitable DB9 connector for 
> power. None of these things is a show-stopper, but of mild details which 
> could have been made better and very simple hacks will allow for a more 
> versatile setup, for those wishing to use their TADD-2 as a lab-device, 
> where as for fixed setups it is of close to no consequence.
> 
> I only made a quick attempt to measure jitter, but it is way down there 
> around ps or so. It was just an indicator measurement anyway. I will 
> make some more propper measurements and analysis.
> 
> Regardless, I think it is a nice kit and should allow for easy 
> lab-ability for most time-nuts. I particularly like the simultanous 
> outputs which is jumperable to suitable outputs and the 5/10 MHz jumper. 
> The PPS LED allows for a quick view and the ARM/SYNC should allow for 
> synchronisation. It fairly well fills a gap in my set of gear and should 
> do that for others too. Doing picket fence exercises becomes trivial 
> with one of these.
> 
> Good work John, Tom and others that feel involved.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 11:45:45 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:45:45 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17D8ED.1080507@febo.com>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A17D8ED.1080507@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A17E1E9.3040901@rubidium.dyndns.org>

John,

John Ackermann N8UR skrev:
> Magnus, thanks for the nice comments!

You are most welcome.

> Regarding the case, yes, the form factor generally matches the TADD 
> enclosure, but since that's a generic box we couldn't do much about the 
> LEDs or the ARM switch.  My thinking was that the LEDs could be mounted 
> off-board if necessary, and I'll update the manual to indicate that.

Well, I see what you had to work with.

Don't forget to add that a toggle-switch for 5/10 MHz input might be a 
good idea if it is being used in a mixed frequency lab environment. It 
could also be made remote for complex situations.

> Since the TADD enclosure has two DB-9 cutouts, one nice option (which I 
> haven't tried yet) would be to wire the LED, the 5/10 MHz jumper, and 
> the ARM switch connections to a DB-9 and mount that in the enclosure, 
> then mount the LEDs and jumpers to a mating connector.

I was actually contemplating the same. I think that would be a good 
solution. It would also allow for remote control and monitoring. Tossing 
in a PPS in there should not be hard and would make sense.

It is actually an interesting detail that except for the output jumpers, 
most controls of function allows for remote control. This would allow it 
to be used in a programmable setup. It would not be too hard to build a 
little add-on board with a mux that can mux out the correct signal 
through control of 3 pins. Just put a small block header connector on 
the board and it slide onto the jumper header of the board.

> Finally, the manual is very much a work in progress... I had to choose 
> between getting the kits put together so we could ship before the Dayton 
> Hamvention, or getting fully polished docs finished, and chose to move 
> ahead with the kitting.  I'll be working on improving the manual shortly.

Well, I am happy for that decission.

Beginners might need some more detailed assistance and more experienced 
builders with a tired mind could just relax by having an assembly order 
list. Beginners might also need some directions on how to read components.

Cheers,
Magnus


From didier at cox.net  Sat May 23 12:13:12 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:13:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>
	<4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
Message-ID: <196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>

Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...

Didier KO4BB
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:12 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
> 
> The code is available at http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code 
> in both source and object form.  The "03-2009" version is 
> what is shipping on the current TADD-2s.
> 
> The "04-2009" version is a slight update from Richard 
> McCorkle that changes the way the ARM and SYNC LEDs work, and 
> also allows selecting a 50% duty cycle output (instead of 
> 20%) as a compile time option. 
> Otherwise there are no changes (ie, no bug fixes).
> 
> John
> ----



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 12:53:43 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:53:43 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>
	<4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A17F1D7.2070205@rubidium.dyndns.org>

John,

Just a few friendly pointers.

John Ackermann N8UR skrev:
> The code is available at http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code in both 
> source and object form.

Would you be so kind to provide a link from
http://www.tapr.org/kits_tadd-2.html (sixth paragraph discusses code) to 
http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code ?

That way these types of questions does not have to re-occur again.

Similarly, a small README file could give the useful information below 
and be edited if and when additional versions is included.

That way people will quickly find the right information without the need 
to dig the time-nuts archives or google beyond the TAPR TADD-2 page.

Cheers,
Magnus

>  The "03-2009" version is what is shipping on 
> the current TADD-2s.
> 
> The "04-2009" version is a slight update from Richard McCorkle that 
> changes the way the ARM and SYNC LEDs work, and also allows selecting a 
> 50% duty cycle output (instead of 20%) as a compile time option. 
> Otherwise there are no changes (ie, no bug fixes).
> 
> John
> ----
> 
> Samuel D. [x86/CPC] said the following on 05/22/2009 07:38 PM:
>> Another question about the TADD-2 PIC divider : they said on main page 
>> the
>> source code for the pic will be released in open source. Does anyone 
>> know if
>> the code is available somewhere ?
>>
>>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] De la
>> part de Magnus Danielson
>> Envoy? : samedi 23 mai 2009 01:33
>> ? : Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Objet : [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
>>
>> Fellow Time-nuts,
>>
>> I acquired myself two TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency dividers as soon as 
>> they hit the list as orderable. Tonight I had the pleasure of 
>> completing the first one.
>>
>> For a beginner, this kit should be fairly simple. You need to have 
>> some ability to solder and read resistor and capacitors, even if most 
>> capacitors comes in separate bags (pretty neat brown bags, but hard to 
>> open without ripping the lid partly off). The manual could give better 
>> hints for the beginner, but it is nothing major at all.
>>
>> Since I fail to fall into the beginner group, I must say that it was 
>> pretty straight forward to build it. The double-sided, silkscreened 
>> and plated hole PCB made this as simple as any other modern kit and it 
>> is easy to make the mounting look good. I was supprised how well my 
>> resistor-leg bending was still up to speed and accuracy as they all 
>> went in quickly and smoothly. Everything went very smoothly.
>>
>> So, at last... everything mounted and time to power up. Without input 
>> it sits there quitetly. I hooked it up to the time-base output of my 
>> SR-620 and it kicked alive directly. 10 kHz, 1 kHz, 100 Hz, 10 Hz, 1 
>> Hz and PPS all just ticked away as expected. I hooked over to a 5 MHz 
>> source, the OCXO (TOYO oscillator of unknown specs) from an Ericsson 
>> AXE-10 station that I keep heated at the labbench with a BNC hanging 
>> free, and sure enought everything was half-rate including the PPS LED 
>> (very useful), but just unplugging the 5/10MHz jumper fixed that quick 
>> enought.
>>
>> A few items of criticism is in place, from a practical point of view. 
>> The TADD-2 does not perfectly match the TAPR TADD-series box. I was 
>> able to sneak out the PPS through the DC input hole, and the ARM and 
>> SYNC LEDS is way in there, so a similar approach was not possible. The 
>> 5/10 MHz jumper should possibly be made into a toggle-switch. None of 
>> those fits the casing, but using one of the DB9 holes should fit it 
>> nicely. The other DB9 hole could be fitted with a suitable DB9 
>> connector for power. None of these things is a show-stopper, but of 
>> mild details which could have been made better and very simple hacks 
>> will allow for a more versatile setup, for those wishing to use their 
>> TADD-2 as a lab-device, where as for fixed setups it is of close to no 
>> consequence.
>>
>> I only made a quick attempt to measure jitter, but it is way down 
>> there around ps or so. It was just an indicator measurement anyway. I 
>> will make some more propper measurements and analysis.
>>
>> Regardless, I think it is a nice kit and should allow for easy 
>> lab-ability for most time-nuts. I particularly like the simultanous 
>> outputs which is jumperable to suitable outputs and the 5/10 MHz 
>> jumper. The PPS LED allows for a quick view and the ARM/SYNC should 
>> allow for synchronisation. It fairly well fills a gap in my set of 
>> gear and should do that for others too. Doing picket fence exercises 
>> becomes trivial with one of these.
>>
>> Good work John, Tom and others that feel involved.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 12:54:05 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:54:05 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>	<4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A17F1ED.6010101@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Didier skrev:
> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...

Works great for me.

Cheers,
Magnus

> Didier KO4BB
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:12 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
>>
>> The code is available at http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code 
>> in both source and object form.  The "03-2009" version is 
>> what is shipping on the current TADD-2s.
>>
>> The "04-2009" version is a slight update from Richard 
>> McCorkle that changes the way the ARM and SYNC LEDs work, and 
>> also allows selecting a 50% duty cycle output (instead of 
>> 20%) as a compile time option. 
>> Otherwise there are no changes (ie, no bug fixes).
>>
>> John
>> ----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 23 12:58:20 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 12:58:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Batteries on aircraft
Message-ID: <923665.11900.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi,
There is a general exemption from the hazardous goods regulations for non-spillable batteries that are installed in equipment. Sealed Lead acids are also exempt if in the original packaging. There have been changes recently on the quantity of lithium in batteries aircraft. Unfortunately they don't mark the lithium content on the batteries so it's hard to tell if they are compliant or not!

Robert G8RPI
JAA licensed avionics engineer.

--- On Fri, 22/5/09, Rick Karlquist <richard at karlquist.com> wrote:

> From: Rick Karlquist <richard at karlquist.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
> To: "M. Warner Losh" <imp at bsdimp.com>
> Cc: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Friday, 22 May, 2009, 10:03 PM
> M. Warner Losh wrote:
> > In message: <20090522185851.4137DBCE6 at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
> >? ? ? ? ?
> ???Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
> writes:
> > :
> > : richard at karlquist.com
> said:
> >> : Did you have any trouble convincing the airlines
> and/or FAA that it was
> > safe
> > : to take an atomic clock on a plane?
> 
> I never heard about any issues of hand carried atomic
> clocks.
> The old photos of Len Cutler watching the airline porters
> carrying
> the clock up the stairs to the plane give the impression
> that
> the airline was honored to be asked to participate.
> There is a very long story about this that boiled to the
> the idea that the cesium beam tube itself has been approved
> as
> a shipping container for the cesium.? If you have ever
> picked
> up a cesium beam tube, you will appreciate that it is
> built
> like a battleship.? Thus it requires no special
> shipping container for either a replacement tube or an
> instrument.
> The tube says "cesium device; nonradioactive".
> 
> Rick Karlquist N6RK
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From jra at febo.com  Sat May 23 13:13:36 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:13:36 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17E1E9.3040901@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org> <4A17D8ED.1080507@febo.com>
	<4A17E1E9.3040901@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A17F680.9040401@febo.com>

Magnus Danielson said the following on 05/23/2009 07:45 AM:

>> Since the TADD enclosure has two DB-9 cutouts, one nice option (which 
>> I haven't tried yet) would be to wire the LED, the 5/10 MHz jumper, 
>> and the ARM switch connections to a DB-9 and mount that in the 
>> enclosure, then mount the LEDs and jumpers to a mating connector.
> 
> I was actually contemplating the same. I think that would be a good 
> solution. It would also allow for remote control and monitoring. Tossing 
> in a PPS in there should not be hard and would make sense.

There's a "secret" extra PPS output available that could be used on the 
DB-9.  Look behind the ARM connector and you'll see a pair of pads 
labeled "AUX PPS".  Those are a simple PPS signal buffered by a leftover 
gate on the 74AC14.  Not a nice low Z output like the primary ones, but 
potentially useful...

John


From jra at febo.com  Sat May 23 13:14:19 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:14:19 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com>	<4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A17F6AB.6090004@febo.com>

Worked for me earlier, and again just now...

John
----

Didier said the following on 05/23/2009 08:13 AM:
> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...
> 
> Didier KO4BB
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:12 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
>>
>> The code is available at http://www.tapr.org/~n8ur/PIC_Code 
>> in both source and object form.  The "03-2009" version is 
>> what is shipping on the current TADD-2s.
>>
>> The "04-2009" version is a slight update from Richard 
>> McCorkle that changes the way the ARM and SYNC LEDs work, and 
>> also allows selecting a 50% duty cycle output (instead of 
>> 20%) as a compile time option. 
>> Otherwise there are no changes (ie, no bug fixes).
>>
>> John
>> ----
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 13:16:21 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:16:21 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A17F680.9040401@febo.com>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<4A17D8ED.1080507@febo.com>	<4A17E1E9.3040901@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<4A17F680.9040401@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A17F725.2030009@rubidium.dyndns.org>

John Ackermann N8UR skrev:
> Magnus Danielson said the following on 05/23/2009 07:45 AM:
> 
>>> Since the TADD enclosure has two DB-9 cutouts, one nice option (which 
>>> I haven't tried yet) would be to wire the LED, the 5/10 MHz jumper, 
>>> and the ARM switch connections to a DB-9 and mount that in the 
>>> enclosure, then mount the LEDs and jumpers to a mating connector.
>>
>> I was actually contemplating the same. I think that would be a good 
>> solution. It would also allow for remote control and monitoring. 
>> Tossing in a PPS in there should not be hard and would make sense.
> 
> There's a "secret" extra PPS output available that could be used on the 
> DB-9.  Look behind the ARM connector and you'll see a pair of pads 
> labeled "AUX PPS".  Those are a simple PPS signal buffered by a leftover 
> gate on the 74AC14.  Not a nice low Z output like the primary ones, but 
> potentially useful...

It was the AUX PPS I had in mind.

Cheers,
Magnus


From g4fre at g4fre.com  Sat May 23 13:30:29 2009
From: g4fre at g4fre.com (g4fre at g4fre.com)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:30:29 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1275.1243037636.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1275.1243037636.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>

I just got hit by this issue in my Dell GX270. Its the one i use for HPIB 
instruments/Heather. The video output disappeared. Doing a web search i 
found lots of posts on they used faulty capacitors. They didnt do a recall 
as it would lead to "bad customer perception of Dells quality" (they had 
just done a battery recall). 

Upon examination 2 had "bulged" You can get kits to replace all 18 
electrolytics. It may explain why there are a lot of gx260/270/280 unsold on 
ebay recently 

Dave 

 

> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:01:38 +0000
> From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 
> 
> 
> Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and in PC power supplies can be traced to a case of industrial espionage gone wrong.  Somebody sole the formula for the caps from a Japanese company and sold it to a competitor.  That competitor allegedly cranked out over a billion of the caps and cornered the market with their cheap prices.  Unfortunately the formula that was stolen was missing a key ingredient...  voila,  over a billion capacitors in a zillion PC's...  and every one of them is destined to fail.  The failure mode is goo oozing out the top of the cap. 
> 
> ----------------------------------------
 



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 13:39:49 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:39:49 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: <S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>
References: <mailman.1275.1243037636.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>
Message-ID: <4A17FCA5.7090705@rubidium.dyndns.org>

g4fre at g4fre.com skrev:
> I just got hit by this issue in my Dell GX270. Its the one i use for 
> HPIB instruments/Heather. The video output disappeared. Doing a web 
> search i found lots of posts on they used faulty capacitors. They didnt 
> do a recall as it would lead to "bad customer perception of Dells 
> quality" (they had just done a battery recall).
> Upon examination 2 had "bulged" You can get kits to replace all 18 
> electrolytics. It may explain why there are a lot of gx260/270/280 
> unsold on ebay recently

On the other hand, if you are willing to replace caps you could do some 
good bargins.

Just the other day I looked at a Quad-head Matrox graphical board and 
noticed how three-four of the caps had bulged.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jmiles at pop.net  Sat May 23 14:05:55 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:05:55 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: <S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJEEAFBNAC.jmiles@pop.net>

I just had a set of 3 paralleled electrolytics more or less explode on an
nVidia video card.  Some further poking around, however, revealed that they
were damaged due to a drain-source short in the buck regulator they were
supposed to filter.  The three 5V caps ended up with 12V across them.  So it
isn't *always* the electrolytics that are to blame!

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of g4fre at g4fre.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:30 AM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
>
>
> I just got hit by this issue in my Dell GX270. Its the one i use for HPIB
> instruments/Heather. The video output disappeared. Doing a web search i
> found lots of posts on they used faulty capacitors. They didnt do
> a recall
> as it would lead to "bad customer perception of Dells quality" (they had
> just done a battery recall).
>
> Upon examination 2 had "bulged" You can get kits to replace all 18
> electrolytics. It may explain why there are a lot of
> gx260/270/280 unsold on
> ebay recently
>
> Dave
>
>
>



From connie.marshall at suddenlink.net  Sat May 23 14:53:09 2009
From: connie.marshall at suddenlink.net (Connie Marshall)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:53:09 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <1581.1243060516@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <HPECLKJDMNNAPGCOFLAIKEELCCAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>

The heat sink on the back of my 5370B runs very hot. Can't touch it for more
than a fraction of a second. Maybe some where around 140F. I assume this is
not normal??

73
Connie
K5CM


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:35 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)


In message <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560 at phx.gbl>, Mark Sims writes:
>
>Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and in PC power supplies
>can be traced to a case of industrial espionage gone wrong.  [...]

While this tale is true, the fact is that even without incompetence,
electrolytics suck.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.




From didier at cox.net  Sat May 23 15:03:31 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:03:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <HPECLKJDMNNAPGCOFLAIKEELCCAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>
References: <1581.1243060516@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<HPECLKJDMNNAPGCOFLAIKEELCCAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>
Message-ID: <D1F65E7304864A939F17A3787F86CCEF@d400>

They all do that.

Didier 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Connie Marshall
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:53 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
> 
> The heat sink on the back of my 5370B runs very hot. Can't 
> touch it for more than a fraction of a second. Maybe some 
> where around 140F. I assume this is not normal??
> 
> 73
> Connie
> K5CM
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:35 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
> 
> 
> In message <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560 at phx.gbl>, Mark 
> Sims writes:
> >
> >Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and in PC power 
> >supplies can be traced to a case of industrial espionage 
> gone wrong.  
> >[...]
> 
> While this tale is true, the fact is that even without 
> incompetence, electrolytics suck.
> 
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by 
> incompetence.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, 
> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, 
> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From didier at cox.net  Sat May 23 15:08:45 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 10:08:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: <S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>
References: <mailman.1275.1243037636.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<S359080AbZEWNaa/20090523133030Z+2640@swip002.ftl.affinity.com>
Message-ID: <57ECF42C7A5D490B974030E13A6D8F1F@d400>

I think the influx of these models on eBay is because many of them now get
out of maintenance contract and the businesses replace them. My GX280 has
been turned on 24/7 (on a UPS) since I got it several years ago, and so far,
nothing has exploded :) This one came out of maintenance contract last year,
but I was able to keep it while they bought me a new dual core laptop with
dual display. Now, I have three displays on my desk and I can finally get
some work done :)

Didier KO4BB

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of g4fre at g4fre.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 8:30 AM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
> 
> I just got hit by this issue in my Dell GX270. Its the one i 
> use for HPIB instruments/Heather. The video output 
> disappeared. Doing a web search i found lots of posts on they 
> used faulty capacitors. They didnt do a recall as it would 
> lead to "bad customer perception of Dells quality" (they had 
> just done a battery recall). 
> 
> Upon examination 2 had "bulged" You can get kits to replace 
> all 18 electrolytics. It may explain why there are a lot of 
> gx260/270/280 unsold on ebay recently 
> 
> Dave 
> 
>  



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 15:18:21 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:18:21 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <HPECLKJDMNNAPGCOFLAIKEELCCAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>
References: <HPECLKJDMNNAPGCOFLAIKEELCCAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>
Message-ID: <4A1813BD.3030808@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Connie Marshall skrev:
> The heat sink on the back of my 5370B runs very hot. Can't touch it for more
> than a fraction of a second. Maybe some where around 140F. I assume this is
> not normal??

Sounds a little too hot (C would give me better indication). Check the 
regulated and unregulated voltages. There are 4 transistors there. Do 
you have the manual? There's a PDF for it and you want to check out the 
A6 board (which often is described together with A1).

+10V is regulated into +5 V and fuse is for 7 A. So about 35W is burned 
in Q2 before fuse blows.

+20V is regulated into +15 V and fuse is for 1,5 A. So about 7,5 W is 
burned in Q1 before fuse blows.

-20V is regulated into -15 V and fuse is for 1,5 A. So about 7,5 W is 
burned in Q3 before fuse blows.

-10V is regulated into -5.2 V and fuse is for 7 A. So about 33,6 W is 
burned in Q4 before fuse blows.

So about 80-85 W may need to be fumed out without having the fuses blow.
More if the power-plug is put in 100 VAC rather than 120 VAC.

A well designed switch becomes muke warm, and it makes minor wonders for 
reliability. :)

Cheers,
Magnus


From didier at cox.net  Sat May 23 18:14:11 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 13:14:11 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com><4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>
	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
Message-ID: <910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>

Actually, www.tapr.org is not there, tapr.org is...

Didier KO4BB 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:13 AM
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
> 
> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...
> 
> Didier KO4BB
>  



From jra at febo.com  Sat May 23 18:26:26 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:26:26 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com><4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
	<910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A183FD2.3010807@febo.com>

www works here, but we've had some other similar reports so there may be 
some DNS strangeness.   Thanks for letting me know, and I'll look into it.

John
----

Didier said the following on 05/23/2009 02:14 PM:
> Actually, www.tapr.org is not there, tapr.org is...
> 
> Didier KO4BB 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:13 AM
>> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
>>
>> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...
>>
>> Didier KO4BB
>>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 18:29:04 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 20:29:04 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com><4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp>
	<910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>
Message-ID: <4A184070.4080501@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Didier,

Didier skrev:
> Actually, www.tapr.org is not there, tapr.org is...

But I see them both, and DNS gives me the same IP address.

I think you need to look closer to home. It does not correlate to my 
experience and I am a far bit both in geographic distance, router-hops 
and ISP wise.

Cheers,
Magnus

> Didier KO4BB 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
>> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier
>> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:13 AM
>> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
>>
>> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...
>>
>> Didier KO4BB
>>  
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From didier at cox.net  Sat May 23 19:18:51 2009
From: didier at cox.net (Didier Juges)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:18:51 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
In-Reply-To: <4A184070.4080501@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A17363B.9080302@rubidium.dyndns.org><00ec01c9db36$6f1083c0$4d318b40$@com><4A17D9FF.10400@febo.com>	<196D4B60BC244B778B6954038B54738D@didierhp><910094A374614FE38064DE49B6522FF8@didierhp>
	<4A184070.4080501@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <5885DB1E74C342C89200D6C41E57BE80@d400>

They are both back here now. For a while, I could not even ping
www.tapr.org, but tapr.org went fine, so it was not the browser.

Just an Internet gremlin I am sure...

I have been moving the laptop between two wireless routers this morning, but
it does not normally do that, unless I did it at just the wrong time.

Didier 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com 
> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 1:29 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
> 
> Didier,
> 
> Didier skrev:
> > Actually, www.tapr.org is not there, tapr.org is...
> 
> But I see them both, and DNS gives me the same IP address.
> 
> I think you need to look closer to home. It does not 
> correlate to my experience and I am a far bit both in 
> geographic distance, router-hops and ISP wise.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> > Didier KO4BB
> > 
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Didier
> >> Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 7:13 AM
> >> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TAPR TADD-2 PIC frequency divider
> >>
> >> Tapr.org appears to be off the map this morning...
> >>
> >> Didier KO4BB
> >>  
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, 
> go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From holrum at hotmail.com  Sat May 23 21:35:24 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:35:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1293.1243103190.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1293.1243103190.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W1551240594FF5D6C3F2716CE570@phx.gbl>


I measured one of my units.  Room temp is 23.5C,  hottest spot on the heat sink is 58.5C.  A rise of 35C over ambient.  Your 140F temperature reading is,  unfortunately,  quite normal.  I have considered adding a small fan to the heat sink.  These numbers might just prompt me to get off my duff and do so...



_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
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From djl at montana.com  Sat May 23 21:47:48 2009
From: djl at montana.com (Don Latham)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 15:47:48 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W1551240594FF5D6C3F2716CE570@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1293.1243103190.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W1551240594FF5D6C3F2716CE570@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <443d947232a12fe2fd60930aed99caba.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>

I had a similar heat problem with another hp  of the same vintage. i
clamped another heatsink on with some cheap 1 in c-clamps. cooled it off
pretty well.
don

Mark Sims
>
> I measured one of my units.  Room temp is 23.5C,  hottest spot on the heat
> sink is 58.5C.  A rise of 35C over ambient.  Your 140F temperature reading
> is,  unfortunately,  quite normal.  I have considered adding a small fan
> to the heat sink.  These numbers might just prompt me to get off my duff
> and do so...
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
> http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com



From connie.marshall at suddenlink.net  Sat May 23 22:03:08 2009
From: connie.marshall at suddenlink.net (Connie Marshall)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:03:08 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W1551240594FF5D6C3F2716CE570@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <LIEOJKFLGKLGNNLIKGGLGEACDJAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>

Roger Roger.... I was thinking of doing the same thing. After noticing this
yesterday, I already have a temporary fan positioned on the heat sink. It's
not bad in the shack today, but on some days the temp approaches 89F (32C).
It was around 82F (27.7C) when I made the measurment. This will continue
until I turn on the AC for the Summer. Still in windows open mode right now
hi hi.....

Thanks

Connie
K5CM


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Mark Sims
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 4:35 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B



I measured one of my units.  Room temp is 23.5C,  hottest spot on the heat
sink is 58.5C.  A rise of 35C over ambient.  Your 140F temperature reading
is,  unfortunately,  quite normal.  I have considered adding a small fan to
the heat sink.  These numbers might just prompt me to get off my duff and do
so...



_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
al_QuickAdd1_052009
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
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From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Sat May 23 22:04:54 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:04:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
Message-ID: <980094.92979.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


I'm not sure if the espionage story is true. However there is a problem with electrolytics. the modern ones have got a lot smaller and run hotter due to incresed PSU switching frequencies. A detailed look at datasheets can be revealing. Many electrolytics have suprisingly short lifes quoted. Some are jus a couple of thousand hours. I did find a small one installed the wrong way round in a piece of HP kit recently. I was in a 8924C comms test set. The keypad was not responding. A low value SM electrolytic in a timing circuit (74ls123 or similar)had obviously beed wrong since new.

Rober G8RPI

--- On Sat, 23/5/09, g4fre at g4fre.com <g4fre at g4fre.com> wrote:

> From: g4fre at g4fre.com <g4fre at g4fre.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Saturday, 23 May, 2009, 2:30 PM
> I just got hit by this issue in my
> Dell GX270. Its the one i use for HPIB instruments/Heather.
> The video output disappeared. Doing a web search i found
> lots of posts on they used faulty capacitors. They didnt do
> a recall as it would lead to "bad customer perception of
> Dells quality" (they had just done a battery recall). 
> Upon examination 2 had "bulged" You can get kits to replace
> all 18 electrolytics. It may explain why there are a lot of
> gx260/270/280 unsold on ebay recently 
> Dave 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 23:01:38 +0000
> > From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> > Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually
> 5370A fans)
> > To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> > Message-ID: <BLU125-W32EB9626ACF899C8949FFCE560 at phx.gbl>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" 
> > 
> > Many failed electrolytic caps on PC motherboards and
> in PC power supplies can be traced to a case of industrial
> espionage gone wrong.? Somebody sole the formula for
> the caps from a Japanese company and sold it to a
> competitor.? That competitor allegedly cranked out over
> a billion of the caps and cornered the market with their
> cheap prices.? Unfortunately the formula that was
> stolen was missing a key ingredient...? voila,?
> over a billion capacitors in a zillion PC's...? and
> every one of them is destined to fail.? The failure
> mode is goo oozing out the top of the cap. 
> > ----------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From connie.marshall at suddenlink.net  Sat May 23 22:05:32 2009
From: connie.marshall at suddenlink.net (Connie Marshall)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:05:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <443d947232a12fe2fd60930aed99caba.squirrel@webmail.montana.com>
Message-ID: <LIEOJKFLGKLGNNLIKGGLMEACDJAA.connie.marshall@suddenlink.net>

That would be a lot quiter than a fan.... may have to give that a try.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 4:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] more 5370B


I had a similar heat problem with another hp  of the same vintage. i
clamped another heatsink on with some cheap 1 in c-clamps. cooled it off
pretty well.
don

Mark Sims
>
> I measured one of my units.  Room temp is 23.5C,  hottest spot on the heat
> sink is 58.5C.  A rise of 35C over ambient.  Your 140F temperature reading
> is,  unfortunately,  quite normal.  I have considered adding a small fan
> to the heat sink.  These numbers might just prompt me to get off my duff
> and do so...
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
>
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutori
al_QuickAdd1_052009
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


--
Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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From holrum at hotmail.com  Sat May 23 22:10:01 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:10:01 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] more 5370B
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1293.1243103190.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1293.1243103190.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W2079BCEC2A7970FAF1BEEDCE570@phx.gbl>


Results from a quick test.  A very quiet 12V, 150mA, 5 inch fan placed 2 inches from the heat sink dropped that 58C spot down to 40C.  Not as much as I had expected.  That hot spot is near the center of the outside fin of the heat sink.  

Those inner fins between the transistors are quite a bit cooler...  now the heat sink averages a pleasantly warm 34C instead of 50+C.  It does look like adding an external fan would be beneficial.

I also tried a tiny 2",  12V, 100mA fan.  It gave an overall temp of around 40C.  Even though it is  much smaller and about as noisy as the big fan,  it produces a higher frequency whine that is rather annoying for such a small thing.

----------------------------------------


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From holrum at hotmail.com  Sat May 23 22:18:59 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:18:59 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1297.1243116602.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1297.1243116602.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W18F8957D60872A03AD8936CE570@phx.gbl>


The capacitor espionage story is quite true and well known to just about everybody in the computer industry.  Google "capacitor corporate espionage" for a start.   First hit is: http://www.burtonsys.com/bad_BP6/story1.html from IEEE Spectrum.  More than one cap maker got the bad juice...
----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits.
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From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 23 22:24:39 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:24:39 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 23 May 2009 22:04:54 GMT."
	<980094.92979.qm@web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> 
Message-ID: <10074.1243117479@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <980094.92979.qm at web27105.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>, Robert Atkinson write
s:
>
>I'm not sure if the espionage story is true. 

It is:
	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/02/06/stolen_formula_torpedos_big_brand/

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From kc0vsj at yahoo.com  Sat May 23 23:38:36 2009
From: kc0vsj at yahoo.com (Tom Clifton)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 16:38:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually capacitors)
Message-ID: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


The word we got from our Dell National Accounts rep was that there was a run of contaminated electrolyte affectring several capacitor manufactures. Gee, go figure QC issues in a country still painting toys with lead based paint...

Any way, I recently purchased a pile of low ESR caps from Mouser to fix five machines from the junk pile at work to build more linux utility boxes.  (perhaps $40) Turned out being a lot harder than I had anticipated as the internal ground planes on the Dell Motherboards made the old caps dogs to remove, and the new ones very hard to solder back in without cold joints.

After the first one, I returned the others to the pile and picked up other machines with good motherboards and bad hard drives or power supplies to get the rest of the machines I needed.

Guess I failed rework-101...

> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 22:04:54 +0000 (GMT)
> From: Robert Atkinson <robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: 5070B once more.... (actually  electrolytics)
>> 
> I'm not sure if the espionage story is true. However there
> is a problem with electrolytics. the modern ones have got a
> lot smaller and run hotter due to incresed PSU switching
> frequencies. 
> 
> > From: g4fre at g4fre.com
> > Date: Saturday, 23 May, 2009, 2:30 PM
> > I just got hit by this issue in my > Dell GX270. Its the one i use for HPIB
> instruments/Heather....Doing a web search i  found
> > lots of posts on they used faulty capacitors. 


      


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat May 23 23:45:10 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 01:45:10 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually capacitors)
In-Reply-To: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A188A86.2060502@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Tom Clifton skrev:
> The word we got from our Dell National Accounts rep was that there was a run of contaminated electrolyte affectring several capacitor manufactures. Gee, go figure QC issues in a country still painting toys with lead based paint...
> 
> Any way, I recently purchased a pile of low ESR caps from Mouser to fix five machines from the junk pile at work to build more linux utility boxes.  (perhaps $40) Turned out being a lot harder than I had anticipated as the internal ground planes on the Dell Motherboards made the old caps dogs to remove, and the new ones very hard to solder back in without cold joints.
> 
> After the first one, I returned the others to the pile and picked up other machines with good motherboards and bad hard drives or power supplies to get the rest of the machines I needed.
> 
> Guess I failed rework-101...

You need to use a hot-air gun to pre-heat the whole PCB. By doing that 
the heat-flow will be less as there is less of a temperature gradient.
The board needs to be made fairly hot... but after doing that, it is not 
as hard to unsolder them, clean the holes and then solder the new caps in.

Cheers,
Magnus


From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Sun May 24 00:26:27 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 17:26:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually capacitors)
In-Reply-To: <4A188A86.2060502@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<4A188A86.2060502@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <325820.25754.qm@web30307.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I've done the repair pulling the caps off the board leaving the leads which is what I solder too, not petty but no need to remove the motherboard. May need to clean up the leads if some aluminum foil is left behind. Also add hot glue for support under and around the new capacitor. 

Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:45:10 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually capacitors)

Tom Clifton skrev:
> The word we got from our Dell National Accounts rep was that there was a run of contaminated electrolyte affectring several capacitor manufactures. Gee, go figure QC issues in a country still painting toys with lead based paint...
> 
> Any way, I recently purchased a pile of low ESR caps from Mouser to fix five machines from the junk pile at work to build more linux utility boxes.? (perhaps $40) Turned out being a lot harder than I had anticipated as the internal ground planes on the Dell Motherboards made the old caps dogs to remove, and the new ones very hard to solder back in without cold joints.
> 
> After the first one, I returned the others to the pile and picked up other machines with good motherboards and bad hard drives or power supplies to get the rest of the machines I needed.
> 
> Guess I failed rework-101...

You need to use a hot-air gun to pre-heat the whole PCB. By doing that the heat-flow will be less as there is less of a temperature gradient.
The board needs to be made fairly hot... but after doing that, it is not as hard to unsolder them, clean the holes and then solder the new caps in.

Cheers,
Magnus

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time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From mikes at flatsurface.com  Sun May 24 01:33:06 2009
From: mikes at flatsurface.com (Mike S)
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 21:33:06 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually capacitors)
In-Reply-To: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <872631.83967.qm@web37004.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20090524013308.831CF116CE1@hamburg.alientech.net>

At 07:38 PM 5/23/2009, Tom Clifton wrote...
>Turned out being a lot harder than I had anticipated as the internal 
>ground planes on the Dell Motherboards made the old caps dogs to 
>remove, and the new ones very hard to solder back in without cold 
>joints.

Get some Chipquik ( http://www.chipquikinc.com/ ), or other bismuth 
based low temp solder. Works great for removing SMTs. 



From biwa at att.net  Sun May 24 14:30:10 2009
From: biwa at att.net (Burt I. Weiner)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 07:30:10 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Don't let the magic hair out...
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1243166402.19008.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1243166402.19008.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <7.0.0.16.2.20090524071553.036c6e98@att.net>

I first heard about the electrolytic problem after having lost my 
third computer video card in a little over a year.  At first I though 
I might have a power supply problem that was blowing video cards, but 
that didn't make a lot of sense, it wasn't blowing other 
stuffs.  Besides, the voltages were correct - at least at that 
moment.  Giving the board a good visual examination I realized that 
many of the electrolytics had bulging tops and some had even blown 
the tops and the fuzzy hair like stuff was sticking straight up and 
out!  Doing a little research I found out that the formula had indeed 
been ripped-off- all but the stabilizing ingredient.  I've since run 
into this problem in several device ranging from our little Linksys 
802.11x boosters around home to our water irrigation timer.  I've had 
to replace all of the electrolytics in those contraptions.  Well, not 
in the video cards.  I discovered that many of the on-board 
regulators and other magic devices on the video cards had turned into 
jumper wires.  I assume that in time better grade capacitors will 
work their way into the manufacturing world.

So, in the past I'd learned not to let the magic smoke out.  I would 
like to add another word of caution: Don't let the magic hair out!

Burt, K6OQK


At 05:00 AM 5/24/2009, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote
>From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
>Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually electrolytics)
>To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Message-ID: <BLU125-W18F8957D60872A03AD8936CE570 at phx.gbl>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
>
>The capacitor espionage story is quite true and well known to just 
>about everybody in the computer industry.  Google "capacitor 
>corporate espionage" for a start.   First hit is: 
>http://www.burtonsys.com/bad_BP6/story1.html from IEEE 
>Spectrum.  More than one cap maker got the bad juice...
>----------------------------------------

Burt I. Weiner Associates
Broadcast Technical Services
Glendale, California  U.S.A.
biwa at att.net
K6OQK 



From bob.paddock at gmail.com  Sun May 24 15:05:35 2009
From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:05:35 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Don't let the magic hair out...
In-Reply-To: <7.0.0.16.2.20090524071553.036c6e98@att.net>
References: <mailman.1.1243166402.19008.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<7.0.0.16.2.20090524071553.036c6e98@att.net>
Message-ID: <bf689bbe0905240805n1f65ae5nd1f6fd0bde110b71@mail.gmail.com>

> ?I assume that in time better grade capacitors will work their way into the
> manufacturing world.

Counterfeit electronic parts have become the newest business model
in some circles.  The problem is getting worse.


-- 
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
http://www.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.unusualresearch.com/


From bob.paddock at gmail.com  Sun May 24 15:32:39 2009
From: bob.paddock at gmail.com (Bob Paddock)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:32:39 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <13568.1242721351@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20090519095316.1e1f4b46.attila@kinali.ch>
	<13568.1242721351@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <bf689bbe0905240832u20a26859g96724b377806179d@mail.gmail.com>

> A 33.31 format would buy us a century, still allow us to get
> nanoseconds right, but it be computationally inconvenient and
> looks messy, so people balk at it.

Anything wrong with TAI64NA?

http://cr.yp.to/libtai.html

"libtai is a library for storing and manipulating dates and times.

libtai supports two time scales: (1) TAI64, covering a few hundred
billion years with 1-second precision; (2) TAI64NA, covering the same
period with 1-attosecond precision. Both scales are defined in terms
of TAI, the current international real time standard. "

TAI64NA in FPGA?

-- 
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/
http://www.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.unusualresearch.com/


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Sun May 24 16:17:23 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 09:17:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <bf689bbe0905240832u20a26859g96724b377806179d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/24/09 8:32 AM, "Bob Paddock" <bob.paddock at gmail.com> wrote:

>> A 33.31 format would buy us a century, still allow us to get
>> nanoseconds right, but it be computationally inconvenient and
>> looks messy, so people balk at it.
> 
> Anything wrong with TAI64NA?
> 
> http://cr.yp.to/libtai.html
> 
> "libtai is a library for storing and manipulating dates and times.
> 
> libtai supports two time scales: (1) TAI64, covering a few hundred
> billion years with 1-second precision; (2) TAI64NA, covering the same
> period with 1-attosecond precision. Both scales are defined in terms
> of TAI, the current international real time standard. "
> 
> TAI64NA in FPGA?
> 

Of course...buried in the install notes

"But keep in mind that this is a very early release. Some of
the code hasn't been tested at all! "

As of 1998...

It also breaks the time up into seconds, nanoseconds, and attoseconds, as
separate chunks, so math isn't trivial

struct taia {
  struct tai sec;
  unsigned long nano; /* 0...999999999 */
  unsigned long atto; /* 0...999999999 */
} ;


I don't think this library buys you a whole lot (other than useful routines
to do things like calculate easter or leap days/seconds), but at the basic
"how does one keep time" level, not particularly an improvement.


Also, someone I was discussing this with at work reminded me of a common
problem.  We often run tests in a testbed where we need to have the entire
testbed running at some time *not the actual time*.. E.g. If you're
simulating a Mars entry,descent,landing scenario, you want the spacecraft
running with "time" at the expected EDL time.  But, you want to have
everybody sync'd to a common source.

So, it's easy to get all the computers controlling the test gear sync'd to
UTC or TAI using something like NTP, but you need a way to have precision
"simulated time" as well.



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun May 24 16:40:08 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 16:40:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 24 May 2009 09:17:23 MST."
	<C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov> 
Message-ID: <1987.1243183208@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux at jpl.nasa.gov>, "Lux, James P" writes:

>> Anything wrong with TAI64NA?
>> 
>> http://cr.yp.to/libtai.html
>> 

>It also breaks the time up into seconds, nanoseconds, and attoseconds, as
>separate chunks, so math isn't trivial

>I don't think this library buys you a whole lot [...]

I dont' think it buys you anything, except trouble.

It is a perfect example of what I said earlier: people cannot grasp
that time do not come in parcels...



-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sun May 24 18:13:55 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:13:55 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: Message from "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux@jpl.nasa.gov> of "Sun,
	24 May 2009 09:17:23 PDT." <C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov> 
Message-ID: <20090524181356.77238BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> Also, someone I was discussing this with at work reminded me of a
> common problem.  We often run tests in a testbed where we need to have
> the entire testbed running at some time *not the actual time*.. E.g.
> If you're simulating a Mars entry,descent,landing scenario, you want
> the spacecraft running with "time" at the expected EDL time.  But, you
> want to have everybody sync'd to a common source.

> So, it's easy to get all the computers controlling the test gear
> sync'd to UTC or TAI using something like NTP, but you need a way to
> have precision "simulated time" as well. 

Is the "entire testbed" isolated from the rest of the network?  (If not, what 
do you do about the time warp?)

Just setup a ntpd running with the local clock (127.127.1.0).  Set the time 
manually and point all of your other boxes at it.  Details TBD.  You will 
probably have to restart ntpd since they won't jump more than 1000 seconds 
once it is running.

It local-server box keep (much) better time if you let it run normally for a 
while to calibrate the drift factor.

You can also use one of the refclock drivers that supports an offset fudge 
factor.  Just set the fudge factor to shift by the desired amount.  (I 
haven't tried it.  Please let me know if it does or doesn't work.)



-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Sun May 24 18:47:43 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 13:47:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
Message-ID: <ED2CE53A69FA462E992783A7FD9F0EBE@S0028384766>

I have an Ovenaire OSC 85-50 10 MHz OCXO that is a frequency reference for a
HP 5316B frequency counter.  It oscillates but the output amplitude is about
20 mV.

I would like to try to repair it.  It looks like it is sealed with epoxy.

Any suggestions on how to open it other than scraping the epoxy out with a
scalpel?

Also, any circuit diagrams available?

Thanks in advance.

Joe



From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Sun May 24 19:12:10 2009
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:12:10 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
Message-ID: <005201c9dca3$8c931840$0900a8c0@AM>

Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue of Cathodeon products.
This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in the 1980 and 90s in
Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod but I have not been
able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the products.)

The units are FS5980/01  10MHz
                    FS5951/31    5MHz
I think the the 10MHz may be a TCXO,VCTCXO or even an OCXO, but  the 5MHz
does not have enough pins to be other than a TCXO. The spec would be useful
(I think I have that from a previous query) but a pin-out is the vital
information because none of the pins is common to the case, so it is
difficult to work out the connections with an ohm-meter.

Thanks
Alan G3NYK



From stanw1le at verizon.net  Sun May 24 19:36:17 2009
From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 15:36:17 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <ED2CE53A69FA462E992783A7FD9F0EBE@S0028384766>
References: <ED2CE53A69FA462E992783A7FD9F0EBE@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A19A1B1.5080900@verizon.net>

Hello Joe,

At one time I used methylene chloride, a clear liquid, to dissolve epoxy.
Took awhile, but the epoxy did soften up and I could easily chip it out.
I soaked the item in a large covered pickle jar for a couple of days.
The liquid and vapors of the solvent got to the epoxy nicely.

Caveat: This method may also dissolve other electrical components and 
you may
have to revert to chipping the epoxy out with a scalpel.

Possibly applying a few drops at a time to the area, instead of the 
complete immersion
would be better.

I would look to the Agilent website and do a document search on the end 
item: 5316B.
They may have the details, schematics, test specs, etc.

Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod    FN41sr



J. L. Trantham wrote:
> I have an Ovenaire OSC 85-50 10 MHz OCXO that is a frequency reference for a
> HP 5316B frequency counter.  It oscillates but the output amplitude is about
> 20 mV.
>
> I would like to try to repair it.  It looks like it is sealed with epoxy.
>
> Any suggestions on how to open it other than scraping the epoxy out with a
> scalpel?
>
> Also, any circuit diagrams available?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From imp at bsdimp.com  Sun May 24 20:06:32 2009
From: imp at bsdimp.com (M. Warner Losh)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 14:06:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <bf689bbe0905240832u20a26859g96724b377806179d@mail.gmail.com>
	<C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <20090524.140632.1927929662.imp@bsdimp.com>

In message: <C63EC123.7F8B%James.P.Lux at jpl.nasa.gov>
            "Lux, James P" <james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov> writes:
: 
: 
: 
: On 5/24/09 8:32 AM, "Bob Paddock" <bob.paddock at gmail.com> wrote:
: 
: >> A 33.31 format would buy us a century, still allow us to get
: >> nanoseconds right, but it be computationally inconvenient and
: >> looks messy, so people balk at it.
: > 
: > Anything wrong with TAI64NA?
: > 
: > http://cr.yp.to/libtai.html
: > 
: > "libtai is a library for storing and manipulating dates and times.
: > 
: > libtai supports two time scales: (1) TAI64, covering a few hundred
: > billion years with 1-second precision; (2) TAI64NA, covering the same
: > period with 1-attosecond precision. Both scales are defined in terms
: > of TAI, the current international real time standard. "
: > 
: > TAI64NA in FPGA?
: > 
: 
: Of course...buried in the install notes
: 
: "But keep in mind that this is a very early release. Some of
: the code hasn't been tested at all! "
: 
: As of 1998...
: 
: It also breaks the time up into seconds, nanoseconds, and attoseconds, as
: separate chunks, so math isn't trivial
: 
: struct taia {
:   struct tai sec;
:   unsigned long nano; /* 0...999999999 */
:   unsigned long atto; /* 0...999999999 */
: } ;
: 
: 
: I don't think this library buys you a whole lot (other than useful routines
: to do things like calculate easter or leap days/seconds), but at the basic
: "how does one keep time" level, not particularly an improvement.
: 
: 
: Also, someone I was discussing this with at work reminded me of a common
: problem.  We often run tests in a testbed where we need to have the entire
: testbed running at some time *not the actual time*.. E.g. If you're
: simulating a Mars entry,descent,landing scenario, you want the spacecraft
: running with "time" at the expected EDL time.  But, you want to have
: everybody sync'd to a common source.
: 
: So, it's easy to get all the computers controlling the test gear sync'd to
: UTC or TAI using something like NTP, but you need a way to have precision
: "simulated time" as well.

We did something akin to this at a previous employer.  On the whole,
we found that math was more compute intensive than the fractional
method that phk recommends, but that the presentation to the user was
easier with this break down.  We opted to stick with this breakdown.

The other problem you run into is that you're often given a time in
UTC time, but need to operate on TAI time so that you kick something
every second and aren't affected by leap seconds.  There are many
other time scales that are in use that you can get data from as well.
Plus many different conventions for dealing with things (like an
fractional MJD: is that always computed with / 86400 or do you use
/86401 on positive leap days?)  All these details can be a pita to get
right and belong in a base library.

So libtai can work in theory, but we found we had to add a lot to it.

Warner


From holrum at hotmail.com  Sun May 24 20:36:33 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 20:36:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1330.1243193799.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1330.1243193799.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W2175A6666A97B323DAAA09CE540@phx.gbl>


I would avoid the methylene chloride.  It is very prone to capillary wicking/pumping and will definitely damage plastic cased components if gets to them.   It has been used to de-pot semiconductors.

It can pump a whole lot of itself through tiny cracks in a short period of time particularly if there is even a small temperature difference.  It is the fluid used in bubble lamps,  juke boxes,  love testers,  and bobbing birds.  Its ability to wick through tiny cracks is used to great advantage as a plastic welding solvent.

----------------------------------------


_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?.
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009

From phill.r1 at btinternet.com  Sun May 24 20:53:03 2009
From: phill.r1 at btinternet.com (Roy Phillips)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 21:53:03 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
In-Reply-To: <005201c9dca3$8c931840$0900a8c0@AM>
References: <005201c9dca3$8c931840$0900a8c0@AM>
Message-ID: <106FBE35DACD43E3A66FAB5DAA65ADCD@LapTop>

Alan
The Cathodeon Company was part of Pye of Cambridge, which in turn became 
part of Philips. I understand that nothing has survived of the old Pye 
Group, so it may be difficult to obtain any new data.
Roy

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia at btinternet.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:12 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??


> Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue of Cathodeon 
> products.
> This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in the 1980 and 90s in
> Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod but I have not been
> able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the products.)
>
> The units are FS5980/01  10MHz
>                    FS5951/31    5MHz
> I think the the 10MHz may be a TCXO,VCTCXO or even an OCXO, but  the 5MHz
> does not have enough pins to be other than a TCXO. The spec would be 
> useful
> (I think I have that from a previous query) but a pin-out is the vital
> information because none of the pins is common to the case, so it is
> difficult to work out the connections with an ohm-meter.
>
> Thanks
> Alan G3NYK
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 




From gpbatey at wildblue.net  Sun May 24 23:49:39 2009
From: gpbatey at wildblue.net (Gordon Batey)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:49:39 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1330.1243193799.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1330.1243193799.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <D70C07FE423545CBAAF7E984A3AF78F3@ets48dae0fccff>

I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was only
letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  

Good luck.  

Gordon




From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Mon May 25 00:03:27 2009
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 01:03:27 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
References: <005201c9dca3$8c931840$0900a8c0@AM>
	<106FBE35DACD43E3A66FAB5DAA65ADCD@LapTop>
Message-ID: <00a101c9dccd$610fc680$0900a8c0@AM>

Thanks Roy, yes I know several peple who worlled for Pye / Philips, and the
firm I was involved in was a dealer for a while in the 80s. I have some data
but not on those units. I cant remember when Philips bought them but it was
a "kiss of death" !

Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Phillips" <phill.r1 at btinternet.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??


> Alan
> The Cathodeon Company was part of Pye of Cambridge, which in turn became
> part of Philips. I understand that nothing has survived of the old Pye
> Group, so it may be difficult to obtain any new data.
> Roy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia at btinternet.com>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:12 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
>
>
> > Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue of Cathodeon
> > products.
> > This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in the 1980 and 90s
in
> > Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod but I have not been
> > able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the products.)
> >
> > The units are FS5980/01  10MHz
> >                    FS5951/31    5MHz
> > I think the the 10MHz may be a TCXO,VCTCXO or even an OCXO, but  the
5MHz
> > does not have enough pins to be other than a TCXO. The spec would be
> > useful
> > (I think I have that from a previous query) but a pin-out is the vital
> > information because none of the pins is common to the case, so it is
> > difficult to work out the connections with an ohm-meter.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Alan G3NYK
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon May 25 00:49:32 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 17:49:32 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <20090524181356.77238BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <C63F392C.7F9B%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/24/09 11:13 AM, "Hal Murray" <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

> 
> 
>> Also, someone I was discussing this with at work reminded me of a
>> common problem.  We often run tests in a testbed where we need to have
>> the entire testbed running at some time *not the actual time*.. E.g.
>> If you're simulating a Mars entry,descent,landing scenario, you want
>> the spacecraft running with "time" at the expected EDL time.  But, you
>> want to have everybody sync'd to a common source.
> 
>> So, it's easy to get all the computers controlling the test gear
>> sync'd to UTC or TAI using something like NTP, but you need a way to
>> have precision "simulated time" as well.
> 
> Is the "entire testbed" isolated from the rest of the network?  (If not, what
> do you do about the time warp?)
Unfortunately not.. And you have the annoying thing of modern test
instruments that run, e.g. Windows Embedded, and have internal clocks, so
when you capture a measurement, the file date/time is the system date/time.

In the long run, I think it's easier to keep everything on one time base
(e.g. TAI/UTC), and fight the downstream battles to turn "observed time"
into simulated time.

But it gets tricky with things that use timecode (IRIG-B, for instance) and
send 1553 messages.

I don't think there is a universally "good" solution, in any case.

> 
> Just setup a ntpd running with the local clock (127.127.1.0).  Set the time
> manually and point all of your other boxes at it.  Details TBD.  You will
> probably have to restart ntpd since they won't jump more than 1000 seconds
> once it is running.

And, there's the problem of keeping things straight between the "local time"
and "global time".


> 
> It local-server box keep (much) better time if you let it run normally for a
> while to calibrate the drift factor.
> 



From ch at murgatroid.com  Mon May 25 02:42:51 2009
From: ch at murgatroid.com (christopher hoover)
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 19:42:51 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more.... (actually 5370A fans)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1273.1243026446.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1273.1243026446.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <4A1A05AB.3070901@murgatroid.com>

Magnus wrote:
> Having 1-10 kW per rack is not uncommon these days, so 
> forced convection needs to be done

That and more.  A fully loaded 42U rack of HP C-class blades runs 8 kW idle and peaks at 24 kW.

This can be air cooled (easily) in a properly designed and commissioned run-of-the-mill raised floor data center.

> It is unfortunatly common to see racks where one box has an airflow 
> left-to-right while ontop of it is one with right-to-left and the rack 
> has very narrow space between the side of the boxes and the sides

Hot aisle/cold aisle arrangement is current best practice.  (Colleagues in my group at HP Labs were the first to do CFD analysis on data centers and established many of today's best practices.)

The key is to avoid mixing of cold and hot air as that destroys exergy.

IT equipment is mostly well-behaved as typically installed.   There is a one notable exception -- rack switches are often mounted from the rear and blow hot air out the front into the cold aisle.   (HP recently announced a switch where the flow can be reversed where need be.)    

The other problem, which you have alluded to, is gear intended for a telco environment.  Unfortunately that includes most data center core switches.   These, as you indicate, typically exhaust to the side.

-ch





From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May 25 11:31:52 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:31:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
Message-ID: <369969.72198.qm@web27102.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Part of Cathodeon still exist in Cambridge. Not crystals unfortunatly, but the lamp and discharge tube business. They are now part of Heraeus. www.cathodeon.com still links you to the website. It might still be worth an email, there might be some old hands left. I know of one case were an enquiry for data led to an invitation to "come and clear out our old store room"!

Robert G8RPI.

--- On Sun, 24/5/09, Roy Phillips <phill.r1 at btinternet.com> wrote:

> From: Roy Phillips <phill.r1 at btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Date: Sunday, 24 May, 2009, 9:53 PM
> Alan
> The Cathodeon Company was part of Pye of Cambridge, which
> in turn became part of Philips. I understand that nothing
> has survived of the old Pye Group, so it may be difficult to
> obtain any new data.
> Roy
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Melia" <alan.melia at btinternet.com>
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 8:12 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
> 
> 
> > Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue
> of Cathodeon products.
> > This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in
> the 1980 and 90s in
> > Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod
> but I have not been
> > able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the
> products.)
> > 
> > The units are FS5980/01? 10MHz
> >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?
> ? ? FS5951/31? ? 5MHz
> > I think the the 10MHz may be a TCXO,VCTCXO or even an
> OCXO, but? the 5MHz
> > does not have enough pins to be other than a TCXO. The
> spec would be useful
> > (I think I have that from a previous query) but a
> pin-out is the vital
> > information because none of the pins is common to the
> case, so it is
> > difficult to work out the connections with an
> ohm-meter.
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Alan G3NYK
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From aa8k at comcast.net  Mon May 25 14:58:33 2009
From: aa8k at comcast.net (Mike Naruta AA8K)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:58:33 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <1987.1243183208@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <1987.1243183208@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <4A1AB219.2030600@comcast.net>


Some (Penrose, Nottale) suggest that time may be discrete rather 
than continuous.

Though 10E-43 second might be difficult to measure.



Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> 
> It is a perfect example of what I said earlier: people cannot grasp
> that time do not come in parcels...
> 
> 
> 


From danv at olphschool.org  Mon May 25 15:37:57 2009
From: danv at olphschool.org (Dan Veeneman)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:37:57 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Source for GPS connector?
Message-ID: <4e30525a0905250837o7cb4bfadj87a16a6fb052e441@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I have a couple of Motorola Remote GPS units (part number RWPRF12104) and am
looking for the mating connector. The unit has a Deutsch MMP 21C-2212P1
locking connector, which has twelve pins. I'm looking for the connector that
mates to this one. According to the Deutsch numbering scheme, I'm looking
for a *MMP 26C-2212S1*. Apparently this is made up of a molded backshell
(6810-204-2001) and a dozen sockets (6862-201-22278).

Does anyone know of a current source for this connector?


Regards,

Dan

From robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk  Mon May 25 16:21:41 2009
From: robert8rpi at yahoo.co.uk (Robert Atkinson)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 16:21:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Source for GPS connector?
Message-ID: <118753.77152.qm@web27108.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>


Hi Dan,
This is the same connector as the Trimble Palisade and Acutime receivers.
Try < http://uk.farnell.com/deutsch/imc21-2212x/receptacle-inline-12way/dp/890108 > They also have a US office (they own Newark).

Regards,
Robert G8RPI.

--- On Mon, 25/5/09, Dan Veeneman <danv at olphschool.org> wrote:

> From: Dan Veeneman <danv at olphschool.org>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Source for GPS connector?
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Date: Monday, 25 May, 2009, 4:37 PM
> Hello,
> 
> I have a couple of Motorola Remote GPS units (part number
> RWPRF12104) and am
> looking for the mating connector. The unit has a Deutsch
> MMP 21C-2212P1
> locking connector, which has twelve pins. I'm looking for
> the connector that
> mates to this one. According to the Deutsch numbering
> scheme, I'm looking
> for a *MMP 26C-2212S1*. Apparently this is made up of a
> molded backshell
> (6810-204-2001) and a dozen sockets (6862-201-22278).
> 
> Does anyone know of a current source for this connector?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dan
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


      


From bill at iaxs.net  Mon May 25 16:52:55 2009
From: bill at iaxs.net (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:52:55 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <4e30525a0905250837o7cb4bfadj87a16a6fb052e441@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4e30525a0905250837o7cb4bfadj87a16a6fb052e441@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>

Aficionados of accurate time,

I have two Panasonic DVD TV recorders, a DMR-EZ27 and 28. They were set to
automatically sync time to a TV station. This worked fine until a few months
ago. Now they are on manual time, but, of course, they drift.

Tried to turn automatic time setting back on this morning. The screen says,
"This may take a few minutes." It still said that 10 minutes later, as the
busy indicator continued to rotate through three spots.

Gave up on automatic and asked the only group I know that might know.

Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?

Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?

Thanks,
Bill Hawkins



From cfharris at erols.com  Mon May 25 17:00:18 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:00:18 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>
References: <4e30525a0905250837o7cb4bfadj87a16a6fb052e441@mail.gmail.com>
	<14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>
Message-ID: <4A1ACEA2.1050005@erols.com>

Hi Bill,

I have no direct knowledge of the situation, but I have noticed that
in my area the time signals seem to piggyback on the PBS stations, and
in my area many of the PBS stations have ditched their analog signals
earlier than the FCC mandate for digital TV.

-Chuck Harris

Bill Hawkins wrote:
> Aficionados of accurate time,
> 
> I have two Panasonic DVD TV recorders, a DMR-EZ27 and 28. They were set to
> automatically sync time to a TV station. This worked fine until a few months
> ago. Now they are on manual time, but, of course, they drift.
> 
> Tried to turn automatic time setting back on this morning. The screen says,
> "This may take a few minutes." It still said that 10 minutes later, as the
> busy indicator continued to rotate through three spots.
> 
> Gave up on automatic and asked the only group I know that might know.
> 
> Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?
> 
> Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?
> 
> Thanks,
> Bill Hawkins
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon May 25 17:35:38 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 10:35:38 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>
Message-ID: <C64024FA.7FAB%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>




On 5/25/09 9:52 AM, "Bill Hawkins" <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:

> Aficionados of accurate time,
> 
> I have two Panasonic DVD TV recorders, a DMR-EZ27 and 28. They were set to
> automatically sync time to a TV station. This worked fine until a few months
> ago. Now they are on manual time, but, of course, they drift.
> 
> Tried to turn automatic time setting back on this morning. The screen says,
> "This may take a few minutes." It still said that 10 minutes later, as the
> busy indicator continued to rotate through three spots.
> 
> Gave up on automatic and asked the only group I know that might know.
> 
> Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?

How does the time get transmitted?  On the Vertical Interval?  Which doesn't
exist on HDTV, but I would imagine there's an equivalent sort of time code
on the digital data stream (if only to allow multiple streams to be sync'd)




> 
> Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?

You betcha... There's no requirement on them to carry anything in any
particular way. Transcoding, remodulation, resampling, not to mention that
the basic transport layer from the headend to the user is not necessarily
time synchronous..  Heck, they have trouble carrying emergency traffic
properly, and they DO have requirements for that.

And over the air signal is your best bet.


Jim



From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon May 25 18:14:08 2009
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:14:08 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: Message from "Bill Hawkins" <bill@iaxs.net> of "Mon,
	25 May 2009 11:52:55 CDT." <14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus> 
Message-ID: <20090525181409.E7DA4BCE6@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


> Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?

One thing that may be relevant....

Many years ago, all the TV sources were kept in sync so there wasn't any 
glitch when they switched feeds.  The sync timing was distributed from at 
atomic clock at network headquarters.  The time of day probably piggybacked 
on that.

I remember an old NBS booklet describing it.  That was back in the late 70s.  
(It's probably a valuable collectors item now.)  I think HP and NBS used to 
publish a table of delays for several  major TV stations.  Somebody on this 
list will probably recognize that description.

The breakthrough that got around the timing requirement was frame buffers.  
(Thank Moore's law.)


> Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?

Thanks for the laugh.  :)

Cable companies do all sorts of strange things.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.





From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Mon May 25 19:34:36 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 15:34:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
Message-ID: <3445680.1243280076323.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The NBS published a booklet on constructing a device that could receive
the sync signals and provide a reasonable secondary frequency standard.
I still have that book around in some box. I should look for it.

IIRC, the signal originated from a Cesium standard and was used to sync
the color so MTM didn't have purple hair !!

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
>From: Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
>Sent: May 25, 2009 2:14 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
>
>
>> Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?
>
>One thing that may be relevant....
>
>Many years ago, all the TV sources were kept in sync so there wasn't any 
>glitch when they switched feeds.  The sync timing was distributed from at 
>atomic clock at network headquarters.  The time of day probably piggybacked 
>on that.
>
>I remember an old NBS booklet describing it.  That was back in the late 70s.  
>(It's probably a valuable collectors item now.)  I think HP and NBS used to 
>publish a table of delays for several  major TV stations.  Somebody on this 
>list will probably recognize that description.
>
>The breakthrough that got around the timing requirement was frame buffers.  
>(Thank Moore's law.)
>
>
>> Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?
>
>Thanks for the laugh.  :)
>
>Cable companies do all sorts of strange things.
>
>
>-- 
>These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon May 25 20:06:32 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 13:06:32 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
References: <3445680.1243280076323.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4B6EF8FD24A040E3888FE7D9E218C707@pc52>

> The NBS published a booklet on constructing a device that could receive
> the sync signals and provide a reasonable secondary frequency standard.
> I still have that book around in some box. I should look for it.
> 
> IIRC, the signal originated from a Cesium standard and was used to sync
> the color so MTM didn't have purple hair !!
> 
> 73, Dick, W1KSZ

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/237.pdf
"Long-Term Continental U.S. Timing System Via Television Networks"

http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/pdf/469.pdf
"Nationwide Precise Time and Frequency Distribution Utilizing an Active Code Within Network Television Broadcasts"

Visit: http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/publications.htm
and search for title: television

/tvb



From glennmaillist at bellsouth.net  Mon May 25 21:07:50 2009
From: glennmaillist at bellsouth.net (Glenn Little WB4UIV)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:07:50 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>
References: <4e30525a0905250837o7cb4bfadj87a16a6fb052e441@mail.gmail.com>
	<14590C2AB33346D9B69435BAF3B92AE5@cyrus>
Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090525170041.03359c40@mail.bellsouth.net>

It appears that the time information is transmitted in line 21 of the 
analog TV signal.
This is the same line that carries Close Captions in an analog signal.
It further appears that PBS is the major carrier of these time signals.
See : 
http://simson.net/ref/autoclock/Interface-June-01.pdf#search=%27PBS%20time%20signal%20auto%20VCR%20set%27

This may explain why you are having problems.

I do not know how this is handled in the DTV world.

We translate line 21 captions to CEA-608 and CEA-708 captions for out 
DTV transmissions.

See: 
http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/DTV/CEA%20test%20material/Iteration_1/It1.2ReadMe.pdf

This explains a little about the conversion of analog line 21 to DTV captions.

It is possible that you can set your recorder to read 608 captions?

Hope this helps.

73
Glenn
WB4UIV
CE WCIV TV

At 12:52 PM 5/25/2009, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>Aficionados of accurate time,
>
>I have two Panasonic DVD TV recorders, a DMR-EZ27 and 28. They were set to
>automatically sync time to a TV station. This worked fine until a few months
>ago. Now they are on manual time, but, of course, they drift.
>
>Tried to turn automatic time setting back on this morning. The screen says,
>"This may take a few minutes." It still said that 10 minutes later, as the
>busy indicator continued to rotate through three spots.
>
>Gave up on automatic and asked the only group I know that might know.
>
>Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?
>
>Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?
>
>Thanks,
>Bill Hawkins
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Mon May 25 21:19:40 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 14:19:40 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090525170041.03359c40@mail.bellsouth.net>
Message-ID: <C640597C.7FBA%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>

I think you're talking about the VITC, which is on lines 19  and 20 (so you
get it on both fields with interlacing).  VITC carries
hour/minute/second/frame (same as LTC), but I don't know if it's "program
time" (since start of program) or "real time).


There's a bunch of flavors of vertical interval time code, too.. Some put
different info on each line, and use up to 4 lines.  And don't forget the
complexities introduced by 3/2 pulldown.

As for what's actually broadcast (as opposed to put on a VTR or distributed
in the editing suite) that's a whole 'nother ballgame.

On 5/25/09 2:07 PM, "Glenn Little WB4UIV" <glennmaillist at bellsouth.net>
wrote:

> It appears that the time information is transmitted in line 21 of the
> analog TV signal.
> This is the same line that carries Close Captions in an analog signal.
> It further appears that PBS is the major carrier of these time signals.
> See :
> http://simson.net/ref/autoclock/Interface-June-01.pdf#search=%27PBS%20time%20s
> ignal%20auto%20VCR%20set%27
> 
> This may explain why you are having problems.
> 
> I do not know how this is handled in the DTV world.
> 
> We translate line 21 captions to CEA-608 and CEA-708 captions for out
> DTV transmissions.
> 
> See:
> http://ncamftp.wgbh.org/DTV/CEA%20test%20material/Iteration_1/It1.2ReadMe.pdf
> 
> This explains a little about the conversion of analog line 21 to DTV captions.
> 
> It is possible that you can set your recorder to read 608 captions?
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> 73
> Glenn
> WB4UIV
> CE WCIV TV
> 
> At 12:52 PM 5/25/2009, Bill Hawkins wrote:
>> Aficionados of accurate time,
>> 
>> I have two Panasonic DVD TV recorders, a DMR-EZ27 and 28. They were set to
>> automatically sync time to a TV station. This worked fine until a few months
>> ago. Now they are on manual time, but, of course, they drift.
>> 
>> Tried to turn automatic time setting back on this morning. The screen says,
>> "This may take a few minutes." It still said that 10 minutes later, as the
>> busy indicator continued to rotate through three spots.
>> 
>> Gave up on automatic and asked the only group I know that might know.
>> 
>> Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV requirements?
>> 
>> Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Bill Hawkins
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 



From boyscout at gmail.com  Tue May 26 00:08:22 2009
From: boyscout at gmail.com (Matt Ettus)
Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 17:08:22 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] NI WLS/ENET-92xx data acquisition
Message-ID: <ad9f78230905251708j50de8b64mf3b443955e813d7f@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone used the National Instruments WLS-92xx or ENET-92xx
ethernet- and wireless-based data acquisition systems?  Have you been
able to use them without using NI software?  Is their protocol
documented anywhere?

It's an interesting product family, with 802.11 or ethernet
interfaces, you can get 4 channels of many kinds of data acquisition.
The 9211 for thermocouples is the most interesting to me right now.  I
need to measure temperature at a lot of points in an oven.

Thanks,
Matt


From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue May 26 03:47:34 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 03:47:34 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FreeBSD, NetBSD, or Minix-III?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1357.1243285674.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1357.1243285674.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W22CA52DB4428ADF67EDCDCE520@phx.gbl>



Oh yes it does...  the postman just brought me a parcel full of time from China ;-)  ...  including rubidium time,  DOCXO time,  and some GPS time.
-----------------------Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> 
> It is a perfect example of what I said earlier: people cannot grasp that time do not come in parcels...
> 
> 
> 
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com  Tue May 26 09:38:02 2009
From: Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com (Reeves Paul)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:38:02 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
Message-ID: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935C38@temps153538.tms-ltd.com>

I'm pretty sure that I have a Cathodeon filter/osc catalogue at home (work
reference material relocated due to constant 'downsizing' of storage space
by my employer - "everything is on the internet"); I'll check up on it
tonight.

Paul   G8GJA

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Melia [mailto:alan.melia at btinternet.com]
Sent: 24 May 2009 20:12
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??


Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue of Cathodeon products.
This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in the 1980 and 90s in
Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod but I have not been
able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the products.)

The units are FS5980/01  10MHz
                    FS5951/31    5MHz
I think the the 10MHz may be a TCXO,VCTCXO or even an OCXO, but  the 5MHz
does not have enough pins to be other than a TCXO. The spec would be useful
(I think I have that from a previous query) but a pin-out is the vital
information because none of the pins is common to the case, so it is
difficult to work out the connections with an ohm-meter.

Thanks
Alan G3NYK


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From alan.melia at btinternet.com  Tue May 26 09:57:37 2009
From: alan.melia at btinternet.com (Alan Melia)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 10:57:37 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
References: <8E8D23D235D70840B6582917DF27898006935C38@temps153538.tms-ltd.com>
Message-ID: <002e01c9dde8$6a87b6c0$0900a8c0@AM>

Hi Paul thanks for looking, the pin out for these beasties is the real info
I am after. It is amazing how rapidly all the data has been lost......I am
glad I saved some from the WPB myself.

Thanks and Best Wishes
Alan G3NYK
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reeves Paul" <Paul.Reeves at uk.thalesgroup.com>
To: "'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'"
<time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??


> I'm pretty sure that I have a Cathodeon filter/osc catalogue at home (work
> reference material relocated due to constant 'downsizing' of storage space
> by my employer - "everything is on the internet"); I'll check up on it
> tonight.
>
> Paul   G8GJA
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alan Melia [mailto:alan.melia at btinternet.com]
> Sent: 24 May 2009 20:12
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Cathodeon TCXOs??
>
>
> Hi I wonder if anyone still has a datasheet/catalogue of Cathodeon
products.
> This firm made crystals and oscillators and filters in the 1980 and 90s in
> Cambridge, England. (It is only 50 miles up the raod but I have not been
> able to find anyone who still has any knowledge of the products.)
>
> The units are FS5980/01  10MHz
>                     FS5951/31    5MHz
pruned!



From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Wed May 27 02:29:41 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 21:29:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <D70C07FE423545CBAAF7E984A3AF78F3@ets48dae0fccff>
Message-ID: <025BCC25A5434C13A49EAC2494DCFEAD@S0028384766>

Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver and
I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along with
the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the 'Oven'
is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board' can
be removed.

I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.

I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.  I
made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to see
these, I can send them.

At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is functional.
The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.

I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I am
a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.  It
serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5 VDC
seems a little low for the oscillator.

Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little low.
0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.

I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if possible.

Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the schematics.

Joe




-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Gordon Batey
Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was only
letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  

Good luck.  

Gordon



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time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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-------------- next part --------------
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From W4wj at aol.com  Wed May 27 02:39:17 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 22:39:17 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
Message-ID: <cb8.4af3606c.374e01d5@aol.com>

Unfortunately  "cesium passthru" went away with the  advent of the
use of frame synchronizers to receive the network signal and  then
re-clock it to match the local sync generator phase and  frequency.
 
The FCC requirement for the color burst signal (3.579545  MHz)
is plus/minus 1 Hz... and you can  certainly do better than that with
most rudimentary oscillators.
 
So, the phase stability of your local network affiliate is  only as good
as their local sync generator...
 
Some stations do have sync generators with 10MHz EXT  REF
capability, allowing use of GPS or stabilized oscillators for  that 
input...
 
73,
 
Don, W4WJ
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/25/2009 1:14:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
hmurray at megapathdsl.net writes:


>  Why did TV stations stop broadcasting time signals? HDTV  requirements?

One thing that may be relevant....

Many years ago,  all the TV sources were kept in sync so there wasn't any 
glitch when they  switched feeds.  The sync timing was distributed from at 
atomic clock  at network headquarters.  The time of day probably 
piggybacked 
on  that.

I remember an old NBS booklet describing it.  That was back  in the late 
70s.  
(It's probably a valuable collectors item  now.)  I think HP and NBS used 
to 
publish a table of delays for  several  major TV stations.  Somebody on 
this 
list will probably  recognize that description.

The breakthrough that got around the timing  requirement was frame buffers. 
 
(Thank Moore's law.)


>  Could a cable company interfere with the time signals?

Thanks for the  laugh.  :)

Cable companies do all sorts of strange  things.


-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my  employer's.  I hate  spam.




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**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
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MaystepsfooterNO62)

From mhuffstutter at seanet.com  Wed May 27 03:01:56 2009
From: mhuffstutter at seanet.com (mhuffstutter at seanet.com)
Date: Tue, 26 May 2009 20:01:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
In-Reply-To: <cb8.4af3606c.374e01d5@aol.com>
References: <cb8.4af3606c.374e01d5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4658.147.136.138.190.1243393316.squirrel@wm3.seanet.com>



Don,
????????? I think
you might have dropped a zero there typing, They actually allow
us
+/- 10 Hz on burst.

Best Regards,
Mark

>
Unfortunately "cesium passthru" went away with the advent of the

> use of frame synchronizers to receive the network signal and
then 
> re-clock it to match the local sync generator phase and
frequency. 
> 
> The FCC requirement for the color burst
signal (3.579545 MHz) 
> is plus/minus 1 Hz... and you can
certainly do better than that with 
> most rudimentary
oscillators. 
> 





From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Wed May 27 03:42:39 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:42:39 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <025BCC25A5434C13A49EAC2494DCFEAD@S0028384766>
References: <025BCC25A5434C13A49EAC2494DCFEAD@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A1CB6AF.9090505@xtra.co.nz>

Joe

A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
load is about 1x.
The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
input to the buffer.

The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
90-100C.
When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver and
> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along with
> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the 'Oven'
> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board' can
> be removed.
>
> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>
> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.  I
> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to see
> these, I can send them.
>
> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is functional.
> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>
> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I am
> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.  It
> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5 VDC
> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>
> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little low.
> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>
> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the schematics.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was only
> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>
> Good luck.  
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



From tomknox at nist.gov  Wed May 27 17:27:23 2009
From: tomknox at nist.gov (tomknox at nist.gov)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 13:27:23 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual
In-Reply-To: <49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
References: <20090403200407.1E685C5EA2C8@mailhost.idcomm.com>
	<49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
Message-ID: <20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>

Hi Skip;
I think I have a 2110A manual if you can't find one let me know.
I purpose I would drop it at a FedEx Kinkos where they could copy it  
and ship the copy to you.
You could pay them directly by credit card. Be aware this could end up  
expensive
I think this manual has fold out pages, and other things that require  
hand placement.
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox
NIST
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
tomknox at nist.gov



Quoting Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>:

> Try PRC68.com
>
> Skip Withrow wrote:
>> Hello Time-Nuts,
>>
>> I am in need of a manual for the Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency
>> Standard.  Anyone have an electronic copy?  I have already tried KO4BB's
>> site and BAMA.
>>
>> I would be more than happy to pay shipping so that I could copy/scan a
>> hard-copy if you have one.  Guaranteed to be returned promptly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Skip Withrow
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>




From tlinbeck at sbcglobal.net  Wed May 27 17:54:59 2009
From: tlinbeck at sbcglobal.net (Thomas Linbeck)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:54:59 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual
In-Reply-To: <20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
References: <20090403200407.1E685C5EA2C8@mailhost.idcomm.com><49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
	<20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <00ba01c9def4$414de420$4501a8c0@DJXTKX61>

Tom,

You might inquire of Brooke Clark whether or not he has a copy.  He does
provide a CD of a number of Austron models.

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com

Tom Linbeck

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of tomknox at nist.gov
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:27 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual

Hi Skip;
I think I have a 2110A manual if you can't find one let me know.
I purpose I would drop it at a FedEx Kinkos where they could copy it  
and ship the copy to you.
You could pay them directly by credit card. Be aware this could end up  
expensive
I think this manual has fold out pages, and other things that require  
hand placement.
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox
NIST
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
tomknox at nist.gov



Quoting Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>:

> Try PRC68.com
>
> Skip Withrow wrote:
>> Hello Time-Nuts,
>>
>> I am in need of a manual for the Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency
>> Standard.  Anyone have an electronic copy?  I have already tried KO4BB's
>> site and BAMA.
>>
>> I would be more than happy to pay shipping so that I could copy/scan a
>> hard-copy if you have one.  Guaranteed to be returned promptly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Skip Withrow
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to  
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



_______________________________________________
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From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Wed May 27 18:59:26 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 11:59:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual
In-Reply-To: <00ba01c9def4$414de420$4501a8c0@DJXTKX61>
References: <20090403200407.1E685C5EA2C8@mailhost.idcomm.com><49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
	<20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
	<00ba01c9def4$414de420$4501a8c0@DJXTKX61>
Message-ID: <135538.56735.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


The copy of Brooke Clarke's CD?I have has the 2110B manual.

Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Linbeck <tlinbeck at sbcglobal.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:54:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual

Tom,

You might inquire of Brooke Clark whether or not he has a copy.? He does
provide a CD of a number of Austron models.

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com

Tom Linbeck

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of tomknox at nist.gov
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:27 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual

Hi Skip;
I think I have a 2110A manual if you can't find one let me know.
I purpose I would drop it at a FedEx Kinkos where they could copy it? 
and ship the copy to you.
You could pay them directly by credit card. Be aware this could end up? 
expensive
I think this manual has fold out pages, and other things that require? 
hand placement.
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox
NIST
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
tomknox at nist.gov



Quoting Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>:

> Try PRC68.com
>
> Skip Withrow wrote:
>> Hello Time-Nuts,
>>
>> I am in need of a manual for the Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency
>> Standard.? Anyone have an electronic copy?? I have already tried KO4BB's
>> site and BAMA.
>>
>> I would be more than happy to pay shipping so that I could copy/scan a
>> hard-copy if you have one.? Guaranteed to be returned promptly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Skip Withrow
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to? 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to
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and follow the instructions there.


_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Wed May 27 19:03:50 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:03:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual
In-Reply-To: <135538.56735.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <20090403200407.1E685C5EA2C8@mailhost.idcomm.com><49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
	<20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
	<00ba01c9def4$414de420$4501a8c0@DJXTKX61>
	<135538.56735.qm@web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <755887.51720.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


oops that should be 2010B on the CD 

Sorry Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 1:59:26 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual


The copy of Brooke Clarke's CD?I have has the 2110B manual.

Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Thomas Linbeck <tlinbeck at sbcglobal.net>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:54:59 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual

Tom,

You might inquire of Brooke Clark whether or not he has a copy.? He does
provide a CD of a number of Austron models.

Brooke Clarke
http://www.prc68.com

Tom Linbeck

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of tomknox at nist.gov
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 12:27 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual

Hi Skip;
I think I have a 2110A manual if you can't find one let me know.
I purpose I would drop it at a FedEx Kinkos where they could copy it? 
and ship the copy to you.
You could pay them directly by credit card. Be aware this could end up? 
expensive
I think this manual has fold out pages, and other things that require? 
hand placement.
Best Wishes;
Thomas Knox
NIST
4475 Whitney Place
Boulder Colorado 80305
1-303-554-0307
tomknox at nist.gov



Quoting Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>:

> Try PRC68.com
>
> Skip Withrow wrote:
>> Hello Time-Nuts,
>>
>> I am in need of a manual for the Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency
>> Standard.? Anyone have an electronic copy?? I have already tried KO4BB's
>> site and BAMA.
>>
>> I would be more than happy to pay shipping so that I could copy/scan a
>> hard-copy if you have one.? Guaranteed to be returned promptly.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Skip Withrow
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to? 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



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From ewkehren at aol.com  Wed May 27 20:12:17 2009
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ewkehren at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:12:17 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual
In-Reply-To: <20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
References: <20090403200407.1E685C5EA2C8@mailhost.idcomm.com><49D66D83.5030507@erols.com>
	<20090527132723.23497fpbx3g0y0or@webmail.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <8CBAD1E9137C9C0-A00-7CE@WEBMAIL-MZ24.sysops.aol.com>

I think I have one and did lend it out recently. I would be glad to ship it to you but I am in Europe and will not be back till the 12th of June. Check recent dialog on t-n I thing the person I lend it to did do a digital copy. If every thing else fails wait for three weeks. Bert


-----Original Message-----
From: tomknox at nist.gov
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wed, 27 May 2009 1:27 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Need Austron 2110 manual


Hi Skip;?
I think I have a 2110A manual if you can't find one let me know.?
I purpose I would drop it at a FedEx Kinkos where they could copy it and ship the copy to you.?
You could pay them directly by credit card. Be aware this could end up expensive?
I think this manual has fold out pages, and other things that require hand placement.?
Best Wishes;?
Thomas Knox?
NIST?
4475 Whitney Place?
Boulder Colorado 80305?
1-303-554-0307?
tomknox at nist.gov?
?
?
Quoting Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>:?
?
> Try PRC68.com?
>?
> Skip Withrow wrote:?
>> Hello Time-Nuts,?
>>?
>> I am in need of a manual for the Austron 2110 Disciplined Frequency?
>> Standard. Anyone have an electronic copy? I have already tried KO4BB's?
>> site and BAMA.?
>>?
>> I would be more than happy to pay shipping so that I could copy/scan a?
>> hard-copy if you have one. Guaranteed to be returned promptly.?
>>?
>> Regards,?
>> Skip Withrow?
>>?
>> _______________________________________________?
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
>> To unsubscribe, go to >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
>> and follow the instructions there.?
>>?
>?
> _______________________________________________?
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
> and follow the instructions there.?
>?
?
?
_______________________________________________?
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com?
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts?
and follow the instructions there.?


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Wed May 27 21:54:51 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:54:51 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
Message-ID: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Fellow time-nuts,

Does anyone just happends to have a HP 3320B operations and service 
manual lying around?

I got a unit and wants to become more familiar with it.

Cheers,
Magnus


From W4wj at aol.com  Wed May 27 22:19:48 2009
From: W4wj at aol.com (W4wj at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 18:19:48 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Time Signals on TV signals
Message-ID: <c97.42f86a0a.374f1684@aol.com>

Mark...
 
AH...   You are correct sir!!   I was  thinking of where I kept mine...   
;-)
 
TNX for the correction!!
 
 
73, Don, W4WJ  
 
 
 
 
In a message dated 5/26/2009 10:02:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
mhuffstutter at seanet.com writes:



Don,
I think
you might have dropped a zero there typing, They actually  allow
us
+/- 10 Hz on burst.

Best  Regards,
Mark

>
Unfortunately "cesium passthru" went away with  the advent of the

> use of frame synchronizers to receive the  network signal and
then 
> re-clock it to match the local sync  generator phase and
frequency. 
> 
> The FCC requirement for  the color burst
signal (3.579545 MHz) 
> is plus/minus 1 Hz... and  you can
certainly do better than that with 
> most  rudimentary
oscillators. 
>  




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To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.

**************Dinner Made Easy Newsletter - Simple Meal Ideas for Your 
Family. Sign Up Now! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221991367x1201443283/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fad.doubleclick.net%2Fclk%3B215225819%3B37274678%3Bs%
3Fhttp:%2F%2Frecipes.dinnermadeeasy.com%2F%3FESRC%3D622)

From Leigh at WA5ZNU.org  Wed May 27 22:20:47 2009
From: Leigh at WA5ZNU.org (Leigh L. Klotz, Jr. WA5ZNU)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 15:20:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] FE 5680A supply voltage
Message-ID: <fb1cec938d3d0c0f5a05cadfccb13ed6.squirrel@graflex.org>

Is anyone familiar with the hazards of an undervoltage supply on an FE 5680A?

I've seen reports of users running it at a more commonly available 13.2V
instead of 15V.

What module might be most affected?  The lamp?

Thanks,
Leigh.




From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Wed May 27 23:33:44 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 16:33:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf? (change xx to tt).

Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:54:51 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual

Fellow time-nuts,

Does anyone just happends to have a HP 3320B operations and service manual lying around?

I got a unit and wants to become more familiar with it.

Cheers,
Magnus

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From holrum at hotmail.com  Thu May 28 00:59:29 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:59:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] FE 5680A supply voltage
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1411.1243462835.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1411.1243462835.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W227A23B7AE52D048C32AACE500@phx.gbl>


The FEI units use two paralleled low dropout regulators to drop the 15V input voltage down to 14V.  There is also a series protection diode that drops some more voltage.  Combined you need at least 14.7V input.  Anything less and the regulators will not regulate and the unit will not work within spec.  Anything much more than 15V and the regulators will overheat (you can supposedly go to 18V,  but I would not do it without lots of cooling).
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From joegwinn at comcast.net  Thu May 28 02:26:39 2009
From: joegwinn at comcast.net (Joe Gwinn)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:26:39 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
Message-ID: <p06240803c643a5d52195@[192.168.1.212]>

Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time 
signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)? 
Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.

Thanks,

Joe Gwinn


From stenn at ntp.org  Thu May 28 02:43:18 2009
From: stenn at ntp.org (Harlan Stenn)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 02:43:18 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
In-Reply-To: Message from Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net> of "Wed,
	27 May 2009 22:26:39 -0400." <p06240803c643a5d52195@[192.168.1.212]> 
Message-ID: <20090528024344.D0EC23A03A@mail1.ntp.org>

> Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time 
> signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)? 
> Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.

In the past I have, on one occasion, been able to use a regular audio
card for this, and I used the IRIG_AUDIO refclock with ntpd for this.

I don't know if that is what you have in mind but it should be an
option.

H


From james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov  Thu May 28 02:49:41 2009
From: james.p.lux at jpl.nasa.gov (Lux, James P)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 19:49:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
In-Reply-To: <p06240803c643a5d52195@[192.168.1.212]>
Message-ID: <C64349D5.8076%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>

Symmetricom bc635pci-V2 or -U?  PCI-SG 2U
(some of the old TrueTime products, I'm sure)

It does IRIG... You'll have to call Symmetricom to see about drivers.. It has Win, Linux, and Solaris.


On 5/27/09 7:26 PM, "Joe Gwinn" <joegwinn at comcast.net> wrote:

Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time
signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)?
Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.

Thanks,

Joe Gwinn

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From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 28 03:23:14 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 22:23:14 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4A1CB6AF.9090505@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <7367B342FEC6433389DE6C68EFBDB827@S0028384766>

Bruce,

Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a computer
program?

If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe what
I call the 'Output Board'.  If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the temperature
but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.

I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

Joe

A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
load is about 1x.
The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
input to the buffer.

The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
90-100C.
When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
and
> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
with
> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
'Oven'
> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board' can
> be removed.
>
> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>
> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.
I
> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
see
> these, I can send them.
>
> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
functional.
> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>
> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I
am
> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.  It
> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
VDC
> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>
> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little low.
> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>
> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
possible.
>
> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
schematics.
>
> Joe
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was only
> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>
> Good luck.  
>
> Gordon
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.


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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Thu May 28 04:03:24 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:03:24 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <7367B342FEC6433389DE6C68EFBDB827@S0028384766>
References: <7367B342FEC6433389DE6C68EFBDB827@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A1E0D0C.5060107@xtra.co.nz>

Joe

Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor, etc.
The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
likely to be the latter).
If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
transistor collector current could be one cause.


Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a computer
> program?
>
>   
Both.
I used LTSpice to check.

> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe what
> I call the 'Output Board'.  
Yes.
> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the temperature
> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>
> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>
>   
Yes that may help.

> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
> load is about 1x.
> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
> input to the buffer.
>
> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
> 90-100C.
> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>     
> and
>   
>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>     
> with
>   
>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>     
> 'Oven'
>   
>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board' can
>> be removed.
>>
>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>
>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.
>>     
> I
>   
>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
>>     
> see
>   
>> these, I can send them.
>>
>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>     
> functional.
>   
>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>
>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I
>>     
> am
>   
>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.  It
>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
>>     
> VDC
>   
>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>
>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little low.
>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>
>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>     
> possible.
>   
>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>     
> schematics.
>   
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was only
>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>
>> Good luck.  
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 28 04:30:39 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 23:30:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4A1E0D0C.5060107@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <9692460775954EF9B97FE72C22F3240B@S0028384766>

Bruce,

I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.  They
were a total of about 6 MB.

If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

Joe

Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor, etc.
The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
likely to be the latter).
If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
transistor collector current could be one cause.


Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
computer
> program?
>
>   
Both.
I used LTSpice to check.

> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
what
> I call the 'Output Board'.  
Yes.
> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the temperature
> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>
> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>
>   
Yes that may help.

> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
> load is about 1x.
> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
> input to the buffer.
>
> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
> 90-100C.
> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>     
> and
>   
>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>     
> with
>   
>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>     
> 'Oven'
>   
>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
can
>> be removed.
>>
>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>
>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.
>>     
> I
>   
>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
>>     
> see
>   
>> these, I can send them.
>>
>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>     
> functional.
>   
>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>
>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I
>>     
> am
>   
>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
It
>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
>>     
> VDC
>   
>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>
>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
low.
>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>
>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>     
> possible.
>   
>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>     
> schematics.
>   
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
only
>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>
>> Good luck.  
>>
>> Gordon
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>   
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.



From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Thu May 28 05:13:02 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:13:02 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <9692460775954EF9B97FE72C22F3240B@S0028384766>
References: <9692460775954EF9B97FE72C22F3240B@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A1E1D5E.7000907@xtra.co.nz>

Joe

In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
can sometimes go high impedance over time.

The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.

If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.  They
> were a total of about 6 MB.
>
> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor, etc.
> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
> likely to be the latter).
> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>     
> computer
>   
>> program?
>>
>>   
>>     
> Both.
> I used LTSpice to check.
>
>   
>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>     
> what
>   
>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>     
> Yes.
>   
>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the temperature
>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>
>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Yes that may help.
>
>   
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>> load is about 1x.
>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>> input to the buffer.
>>
>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>> 90-100C.
>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>>     
>>>       
>> and
>>   
>>     
>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>     
>>>       
>> with
>>   
>>     
>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>     
>>>       
>> 'Oven'
>>   
>>     
>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3 screws
>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>       
> can
>   
>>> be removed.
>>>
>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board' and
>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller Board'
>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>
>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator boards.
>>>     
>>>       
>> I
>>   
>>     
>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I have
>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
>>>     
>>>       
>> see
>>   
>>     
>>> these, I can send them.
>>>
>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>     
>>>       
>> functional.
>>   
>>     
>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>
>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.  I
>>>     
>>>       
>> am
>>   
>>     
>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>       
> It
>   
>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
>>>     
>>>       
>> VDC
>>   
>>     
>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>
>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>       
> low.
>   
>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>
>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>     
>>>       
>> possible.
>>   
>>     
>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>     
>>>       
>> schematics.
>>   
>>     
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>       
> only
>   
>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable to
>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>
>>> Good luck.  
>>>
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>   
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu May 28 07:02:46 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 09:02:46 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4A1E3716.8040506@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Stanley Reynolds skrev:
> PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf  (change xx to tt).

Many thanks!

I was trying to navigate the HP archive (after checking BAMA), but I 
must have been tired.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jim77742 at gmail.com  Thu May 28 07:23:18 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:23:18 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905280023m6edd4671l3efe92d2f238039a@mail.gmail.com>

I'm curious - why change hide the http?

2009/5/28 Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com>

>
> PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf  (change
> xx to tt).
>
> Stanley
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
> time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:54:51 PM
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
>
> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> Does anyone just happends to have a HP 3320B operations and service manual
> lying around?
>
> I got a unit and wants to become more familiar with it.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jim77742 at gmail.com  Thu May 28 07:23:58 2009
From: jim77742 at gmail.com (Jim Palfreyman)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 17:23:58 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905280023m6edd4671l3efe92d2f238039a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f616e0f80905280023m6edd4671l3efe92d2f238039a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f616e0f80905280023n20bde81bx9cb87a1a3aeb9aca@mail.gmail.com>

I meant:

Why hide the http?

2009/5/28 Jim Palfreyman <jim77742 at gmail.com>

> I'm curious - why change hide the http?
>
> 2009/5/28 Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com>
>
>
>> PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf  (change
>> xx to tt).
>>
>> Stanley
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org>
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <
>> time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 4:54:51 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
>>
>> Fellow time-nuts,
>>
>> Does anyone just happends to have a HP 3320B operations and service manual
>> lying around?
>>
>> I got a unit and wants to become more familiar with it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>

From sr75pro at free.fr  Thu May 28 08:53:51 2009
From: sr75pro at free.fr (Sylvain RICHARD)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:53:51 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <f616e0f80905280023n20bde81bx9cb87a1a3aeb9aca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>	<236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>	<f616e0f80905280023m6edd4671l3efe92d2f238039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f616e0f80905280023n20bde81bx9cb87a1a3aeb9aca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4A1E511F.20006@free.fr>

Jim Palfreyman wrote:

Best guess: torrent site / forum user habit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_referrer

Sylvain RICHARD
> I meant:
>
> Why hide the http?
>
> 2009/5/28 Jim Palfreyman <jim77742 at gmail.com>
>
>   
>> I'm curious - why change hide the http?
>>
>> 2009/5/28 Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>     
>>> PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf  (change
>>> xx to tt).
>>>
>>> Stanley
>>>       



From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Thu May 28 11:53:06 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 06:53:06 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4A1E1D5E.7000907@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <9F2BBF9476A241F3B2AE504C4E33F0C2@S0028384766>

Bruce,

Simple enough suggestion.

Replacement transistors should arrive before the weekend.  I will try to
replace the transistors and re-solder all the connections.

I do not have a current probe but I do have an oscilloscope or two.  Any
suggestions of a current probe small enough to get into those small spaces?

Joe



-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

Joe

In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
can sometimes go high impedance over time.

The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.

If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.
They
> were a total of about 6 MB.
>
> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor,
etc.
> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
> likely to be the latter).
> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>     
> computer
>   
>> program?
>>
>>   
>>     
> Both.
> I used LTSpice to check.
>
>   
>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>     
> what
>   
>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>     
> Yes.
>   
>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the
temperature
>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>
>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>
>>   
>>     
> Yes that may help.
>
>   
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>> load is about 1x.
>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>> input to the buffer.
>>
>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>> 90-100C.
>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>>     
>>>       
>> and
>>   
>>     
>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>     
>>>       
>> with
>>   
>>     
>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>     
>>>       
>> 'Oven'
>>   
>>     
>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3
screws
>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>       
> can
>   
>>> be removed.
>>>
>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board'
and
>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller
Board'
>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>
>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator
boards.
>>>     
>>>       
>> I
>>   
>>     
>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I
have
>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
>>>     
>>>       
>> see
>>   
>>     
>>> these, I can send them.
>>>
>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>     
>>>       
>> functional.
>>   
>>     
>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>
>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.
I
>>>     
>>>       
>> am
>>   
>>     
>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>       
> It
>   
>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
>>>     
>>>       
>> VDC
>>   
>>     
>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>
>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>       
> low.
>   
>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>
>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>     
>>>       
>> possible.
>>   
>>     
>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>     
>>>       
>> schematics.
>>   
>>     
>>> Joe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>       
> only
>   
>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable
to
>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>
>>> Good luck.  
>>>
>>> Gordon
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>   
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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>   


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From stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com  Thu May 28 12:50:24 2009
From: stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com (Stanley Reynolds)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 05:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual ( live links )
In-Reply-To: <4A1E511F.20006@free.fr>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
	<236463.92750.qm@web30304.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<f616e0f80905280023m6edd4671l3efe92d2f238039a@mail.gmail.com>
	<f616e0f80905280023n20bde81bx9cb87a1a3aeb9aca@mail.gmail.com>
	<4A1E511F.20006@free.fr>
Message-ID: <846461.41168.qm@web30303.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


I have had problems in the past with email that was lost or delayed on this list, removal of live links has helped. Maybe a spam filter ?

Stanley



----- Original Message ----
From: Sylvain RICHARD <sr75pro at free.fr>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 3:53:51 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual

Jim Palfreyman wrote:

guess: torrent site / forum user habit?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTTP_referrer

Sylvain RICHARD
> I meant:
>
> Why hide the http?
>
> 2009/5/28 Jim Palfreyman <jim77742 at gmail.com>
>
>? 
>> I'm curious - why change hide the http?
>>
>> 2009/5/28 Stanley Reynolds <stanley_reynolds at yahoo.com>
>>
>>
>>? ? 
>>> PDF here : hxxp://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-3320AB-Manual.pdf? (change
>>> xx to tt).
>>>
>>> Stanley
>>>? ? ? 


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time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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and follow the instructions there.



From louie at transsys.com  Thu May 28 15:08:31 2009
From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:08:31 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
In-Reply-To: <C64349D5.8076%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
References: <C64349D5.8076%James.P.Lux@jpl.nasa.gov>
Message-ID: <160F1910-2D9C-4ED2-8CC4-5EF7953A6C2C@transsys.com>

And depending on what you mean by "industrial grade", they also have
the bc635 board in a CompactPCI form-factor, too.  Or at least they
used to some years ago.

I don't know what sort of drivers they have for AIX.  I didn't use
their drivers for FreeBSD (3.0 back at the time), but you could
probably cobble up a pretty minimal driver or use existing OS
facilities to just memory-map the PCI device registers which
you can manipulate from user space.  As I recall, when you perform
a read-access on one of the registers, it will latch a 64 bit
timestamp into two other device registers that you can read at
your leisure.  There are other capabilities, like programmable
interrupt generation that the board can perform, too.

On interesting experiment I did with the bc635 was to program it
to generate an interrupt, and then latch the time in the
interrupt service routing to measure interrupt latency.  Pretty
scary sometimes..

louie



On May 27, 2009, at 10:49 PM, Lux, James P wrote:

> Symmetricom bc635pci-V2 or -U?  PCI-SG 2U
> (some of the old TrueTime products, I'm sure)
>
> It does IRIG... You'll have to call Symmetricom to see about  
> drivers.. It has Win, Linux, and Solaris.
>
>
> On 5/27/09 7:26 PM, "Joe Gwinn" <joegwinn at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time
> signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)?
> Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Joe Gwinn
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu May 28 15:28:41 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:28:41 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 3320B manual
In-Reply-To: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A1DB6AB.5060402@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <d114dab30ac16b81e4565e124dc30f63.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

Magnus,

If you need parts for one let me know, I have been scrapping out
a large estate and came across two or three in pretty bad shape.
If they have not made it to the scrap yard, let me know.

-pete

> Fellow time-nuts,
>
> Does anyone just happends to have a HP 3320B operations and service
> manual lying around?
>
> I got a unit and wants to become more familiar with it.
>
> Cheers,
> Magnus
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From martyn at ptsyst.com  Thu May 28 17:43:05 2009
From: martyn at ptsyst.com (Martyn Smith)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:43:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <mailman.79.1228477113.2499.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.79.1228477113.2499.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BB056B805C6B4F2C9290A2225FAC2B8D@MartynDesktop>

Hello,

I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.

The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know the card is 
ok.

I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has an 
ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.

But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.

Can anyone help.

It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI base, so I'm 
wondering if that's a problem as well.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when it arrives.

Best Regards

Martyn




From jmiles at pop.net  Thu May 28 17:52:02 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 10:52:02 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <BB056B805C6B4F2C9290A2225FAC2B8D@MartynDesktop>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>

Many of those older ISA GPIB cards never had Windows NT drivers written for
them, much less 2K/XP.  That's true of National Instruments, and wouldn't
surprise me if it's true of HP as well.  I'm guessing you'll need to stick
with Win9x if you need to use that card.  (You don't have to go all the way
back to Win95, as Win98SE will use the same drivers.)

-- john, KE5FX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
> Behalf Of Martyn Smith
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:43 AM
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.
>
> The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know
> the card is
> ok.
>
> I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has an
> ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.
>
> But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.
>
> Can anyone help.
>
> It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
> The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI
> base, so I'm
> wondering if that's a problem as well.
>
> Any advice will be much appreciated.
>
> I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when
> it arrives.
>
> Best Regards
>
> Martyn
>
>



From jfor at quik.com  Thu May 28 18:13:44 2009
From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>

Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
work on XP with the right drivers.

It may take some looking on the NI site to find the drivers. I took the
easy way out and just called NI. They were very helpful.

-John

===========


> Many of those older ISA GPIB cards never had Windows NT drivers written
> for
> them, much less 2K/XP.  That's true of National Instruments, and wouldn't
> surprise me if it's true of HP as well.  I'm guessing you'll need to stick
> with Win9x if you need to use that card.  (You don't have to go all the
> way
> back to Win95, as Win98SE will use the same drivers.)
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Martyn Smith
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:43 AM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.
>>
>> The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know
>> the card is
>> ok.
>>
>> I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has
>> an
>> ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.
>>
>> But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.
>>
>> Can anyone help.
>>
>> It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
>> The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI
>> base, so I'm
>> wondering if that's a problem as well.
>>
>> Any advice will be much appreciated.
>>
>> I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when
>> it arrives.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>




From g4hup at btinternet.com  Thu May 28 18:20:22 2009
From: g4hup at btinternet.com (dave powis)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:20:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] NIB NI ISA GPIB Card - was - Re:  HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
	<2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
Message-ID: <309178.76596.qm@web86301.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

If anyone wants to make me an offer, I do have a genuine NI ISA GPIB card sitting in its box with the original documentation and driver disk (not very useful now unless you're running Win 98 or earlier I guess).  But from the thread, it would seem that there are WinXP drivers available for this card so it might be useful to someone who's running a machine with ISA slots.  I now have a PCI GPIB card (Measurement Computing) which works fine with John's excellent software, so won't be needing this one.

Please reply off list - g4hup at btinternet.com

Dave, G4HUP

http://g4hup.com




________________________________
From: J. Forster <jfor at quik.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May, 2009 7:13:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card

Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
work on XP with the right drivers.

It may take some looking on the NI site to find the drivers. I took the
easy way out and just called NI. They were very helpful.

-John

===========


> Many of those older ISA GPIB cards never had Windows NT drivers written
> for
> them, much less 2K/XP.  That's true of National Instruments, and wouldn't
> surprise me if it's true of HP as well.  I'm guessing you'll need to stick
> with Win9x if you need to use that card.  (You don't have to go all the
> way
> back to Win95, as Win98SE will use the same drivers.)
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Martyn Smith
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:43 AM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.
>>
>> The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know
>> the card is
>> ok.
>>
>> I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has
>> an
>> ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.
>>
>> But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.
>>
>> Can anyone help.
>>
>> It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
>> The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI
>> base, so I'm
>> wondering if that's a problem as well.
>>
>> Any advice will be much appreciated.
>>
>> I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when
>> it arrives.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



_______________________________________________
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and follow the instructions there.

From g4hup at btinternet.com  Thu May 28 18:20:22 2009
From: g4hup at btinternet.com (dave powis)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 18:20:22 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] NIB NI ISA GPIB Card - was - Re:  HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
	<2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
Message-ID: <309178.76596.qm@web86301.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

If anyone wants to make me an offer, I do have a genuine NI ISA GPIB card sitting in its box with the original documentation and driver disk (not very useful now unless you're running Win 98 or earlier I guess).  But from the thread, it would seem that there are WinXP drivers available for this card so it might be useful to someone who's running a machine with ISA slots.  I now have a PCI GPIB card (Measurement Computing) which works fine with John's excellent software, so won't be needing this one.

Please reply off list - g4hup at btinternet.com

Dave, G4HUP

http://g4hup.com




________________________________
From: J. Forster <jfor at quik.com>
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, 28 May, 2009 7:13:44 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card

Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
work on XP with the right drivers.

It may take some looking on the NI site to find the drivers. I took the
easy way out and just called NI. They were very helpful.

-John

===========


> Many of those older ISA GPIB cards never had Windows NT drivers written
> for
> them, much less 2K/XP.  That's true of National Instruments, and wouldn't
> surprise me if it's true of HP as well.  I'm guessing you'll need to stick
> with Win9x if you need to use that card.  (You don't have to go all the
> way
> back to Win95, as Win98SE will use the same drivers.)
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Martyn Smith
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:43 AM
>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>> Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.
>>
>> The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know
>> the card is
>> ok.
>>
>> I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has
>> an
>> ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.
>>
>> But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.
>>
>> Can anyone help.
>>
>> It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
>> The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI
>> base, so I'm
>> wondering if that's a problem as well.
>>
>> Any advice will be much appreciated.
>>
>> I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when
>> it arrives.
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Martyn
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>



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and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu May 28 18:23:20 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:23:20 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEELCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
	<2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
Message-ID: <4A1ED698.5040902@rubidium.dyndns.org>

J. Forster skrev:
> Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
> work on XP with the right drivers.
> 
> It may take some looking on the NI site to find the drivers. I took the
> easy way out and just called NI. They were very helpful.

I have had the same issue with a NI PCMCIA board. The NI site and 
support material was not optimized for people searching for older boards 
and drivers. It really confused me. When I did finally install the 
correct drivers, it worked like a charm.

Thus, the NI software is fine, but their web and other customer support 
material could be improved.

Cheers,
Magnus


From harry at hindriks.demon.nl  Thu May 28 18:24:35 2009
From: harry at hindriks.demon.nl (Harry Hindriks)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 20:24:35 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <BB056B805C6B4F2C9290A2225FAC2B8D@MartynDesktop>
References: <mailman.79.1228477113.2499.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BB056B805C6B4F2C9290A2225FAC2B8D@MartynDesktop>
Message-ID: <012601c9dfc1$98c96f30$ca5c4d90$@demon.nl>

Hello,

You can try it on the next page, where Agilent has stored there old drivers:
http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1184883
&nid=-35532.731306&id=1184883

Regards,

Harry




-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Martyn Smith
Sent: donderdag 28 mei 2009 19:43
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card

Hello,

I'm trying to get a 82335 HPIB card to run on my computer.

The card works in an old computer running windows 95, so I know the card is 
ok.

I have a Pentium 3 running windows XP home edition.  This computer has an 
ISA connector, so the HPIB fits ok.

But the computer just doesn't recognize my HPIB card.

Can anyone help.

It may be that windows XP is too new to run on this computer.
The ISA connector is actually on a cage that plugs into a PCI base, so I'm 
wondering if that's a problem as well.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

I have just bought win95 on eBay, and I'm going to try that when it arrives.

Best Regards

Martyn



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From jmiles at pop.net  Thu May 28 18:38:11 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 11:38:11 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <2024.12.6.201.141.1243534424.squirrel@pop.quik.com>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEFDCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>

Hmm.  I know I couldn't find an NI PCII/IIA driver for Win2K when I
looked -- it's why I switched to the PCI-GPIB -- but yeah, they do have
drivers for the old AT-GPIB/TNT and others, all the way through WinXP.
Looks like the easiest page to check is
http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5326 .  Still no NT love for the
PCII/IIA, so I guess it's time to let go of that one.

-- john, KE5FX


> Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
> work on XP with the right drivers.
>
>



From jfor at quik.com  Thu May 28 19:13:38 2009
From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEFDCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJKEFDCAAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <2117.12.6.201.86.1243538018.squirrel@pop.quik.com>

This is the link I was given:

http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/340/lang/en

-John

===========

> Hmm.  I know I couldn't find an NI PCII/IIA driver for Win2K when I
> looked -- it's why I switched to the PCI-GPIB -- but yeah, they do have
> drivers for the old AT-GPIB/TNT and others, all the way through WinXP.
> Looks like the easiest page to check is
> http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5326 .  Still no NT love for the
> PCII/IIA, so I guess it's time to let go of that one.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>
>> Not so. I just went through this. Even the older ISA NI GPIB cards will
>> work on XP with the right drivers.




From gwinn at raytheon.com  Thu May 28 20:40:20 2009
From: gwinn at raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:40:20 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
In-Reply-To: <20090528024344.D0EC23A03A@mail1.ntp.org>
Message-ID: <OFF757BED0.85A89B9E-ON852575C4.00713CB6-852575C4.00718EA2@mck.us.ray.com>

time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 05/27/2009 10:43:18 PM:

> > Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time 
> > signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)? 
> > Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.
> 
> In the past I have, on one occasion, been able to use a regular audio
> card for this, and I used the IRIG_AUDIO refclock with ntpd for this.
> 
> I don't know if that is what you have in mind but it should be an
> option.

Hmm.  That isn't what I had in mind, although you cannot tell from how I 
phrased the query.  Audio cards cannot generate the time interrupts et al, 
so I'm looking for a IRIG receiver card that fits in a PCI bus slot, and 
the AIX I/O driver to allow user software to utilize the card.

Joe


From gwinn at raytheon.com  Thu May 28 20:52:01 2009
From: gwinn at raytheon.com (Joseph M Gwinn)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 16:52:01 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG receiver card for AIX?
In-Reply-To: <160F1910-2D9C-4ED2-8CC4-5EF7953A6C2C@transsys.com>
Message-ID: <OF0C42B7A5.28C21C31-ON852575C4.0071BE56-852575C4.0072A085@mck.us.ray.com>

time-nuts-bounces at febo.com wrote on 05/28/2009 11:08:31 AM:

> And depending on what you mean by "industrial grade", they also have
> the bc635 board in a CompactPCI form-factor, too.  Or at least they
> used to some years ago.

I remember that card from 1995!  The BC635 would be suitable.  If still 
made.

 
> I don't know what sort of drivers they have for AIX.  I didn't use
> their drivers for FreeBSD (v3.0 back at the time), but you could
> probably cobble up a pretty minimal driver or use existing OS
> facilities to just memory-map the PCI device registers which
> you can manipulate from user space.  As I recall, when you perform
> a read-access on one of the registers, it will latch a 64 bit
> timestamp into two other device registers that you can read at
> your leisure.  There are other capabilities, like programmable
> interrupt generation that the board can perform, too.

I don't know of an AIX driver, but perhaps...

That's how I would do the driver as well.  I'm trying to buy something, if 
possible, and in any case given the expense of writing a driver the 
question will surely come up.

 
> On interesting experiment I did with the bc635 was to program it
> to generate an interrupt, and then latch the time in the
> interrupt service routing to measure interrupt latency.  Pretty
> scary sometimes..

I would be doing something not quite that dangerous.

I need to trigger software to talk to hardware on a fixed schedule about 
15 times a second, where the hardware has hardware (10 MHz and 1PPS) 
access to the time, and complains if commands arrive too late.

Joe G


> louie
> 
> 
> 
> On May 27, 2009, at 10:49 PM, Lux, James P wrote:
> 
> > Symmetricom bc635pci-V2 or -U?  PCI-SG 2U
> > (some of the old TrueTime products, I'm sure)
> >
> > It does IRIG... You'll have to call Symmetricom to see about 
> > drivers.. It has Win, Linux, and Solaris.
> >
> >
> > On 5/27/09 7:26 PM, "Joe Gwinn" <joegwinn at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > Does anybody know of any PCI cards that will receive IRIG-B time
> > signals and come with an I/O driver for AIX (IBM's flavor of UNIX)?
> > Industrial-grade commercial products are preferred.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-
> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-
> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-
> bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> The following line is added for your protection and will be 
> used for analysis if this message is reported as spam:
> 
> (Raytheon Analysis: IP=64.34.164.147; e-from=time-nuts-
> bounces+gwinn=raytheon.com at febo.com; from=louie at transsys.com; 
> date=May 28, 2009 3:09:34 PM; subject=Re: [time-nuts] PCI IRIG 
> receiver card for AIX?)



From peterawson at earthlink.net  Thu May 28 21:00:17 2009
From: peterawson at earthlink.net (Pete)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 15:00:17 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] HP82335 HPIB Card
References: <mailman.79.1228477113.2499.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BB056B805C6B4F2C9290A2225FAC2B8D@MartynDesktop>
Message-ID: <E0F3B41D95634644AA1E7BDB05C73346@BASE1>

H-P driver support for this card ended with Win98.

Pete Rawson


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 00:12:38 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:12:38 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <9F2BBF9476A241F3B2AE504C4E33F0C2@S0028384766>
References: <9F2BBF9476A241F3B2AE504C4E33F0C2@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A1F2876.3080408@xtra.co.nz>

Joe

Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a
small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current
is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more
difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by.
In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair
of toroids.
Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this
is probably impractical.

Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across
resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current.

Bruce


J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> Simple enough suggestion.
>
> Replacement transistors should arrive before the weekend.  I will try to
> replace the transistors and re-solder all the connections.
>
> I do not have a current probe but I do have an oscilloscope or two.  Any
> suggestions of a current probe small enough to get into those small spaces?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
> The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
> It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
> can sometimes go high impedance over time.
>
> The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.
>
> If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
> at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.
>>     
> They
>   
>> were a total of about 6 MB.
>>
>> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
>> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor,
>>     
> etc.
>   
>> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
>> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
>> likely to be the latter).
>> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
>> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>>     
>>>       
>> computer
>>   
>>     
>>> program?
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> Both.
>> I used LTSpice to check.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>>     
>>>       
>> what
>>   
>>     
>>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>>     
>>>       
>> Yes.
>>   
>>     
>>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the
>>>       
> temperature
>   
>>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>>
>>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> Yes that may help.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>>> load is about 1x.
>>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
>>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>>> input to the buffer.
>>>
>>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>>> 90-100C.
>>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> and
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output Board'
>>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> with
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> 'Oven'
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3
>>>>         
> screws
>   
>>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> can
>>   
>>     
>>>> be removed.
>>>>
>>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board'
>>>>         
> and
>   
>>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller
>>>>         
> Board'
>   
>>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>>
>>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator
>>>>         
> boards.
>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> I
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I
>>>>         
> have
>   
>>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> see
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> these, I can send them.
>>>>
>>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as the
>>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> functional.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>>
>>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.
>>>>         
> I
>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> am
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> It
>>   
>>     
>>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.  2.5
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> VDC
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> low.
>>   
>>     
>>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>>
>>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> possible.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> schematics.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>
>>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> only
>>   
>>     
>>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable
>>>>         
> to
>   
>>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>>
>>>> Good luck.  
>>>>
>>>> Gordon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>   
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 00:36:04 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 00:36:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1451.1243555967.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1451.1243555967.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W2192AF8A292F4F52F50E17CE510@phx.gbl>


A certain Lady Heather is making an appearance on CSI this evening  ;-)



_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail? goes with you. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009

From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 29 03:34:49 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:34:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4A1F2876.3080408@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4E57A24B481A496BA6DE34DA3E7B28D3@S0028384766>

Bruce,

I re-soldered all connections on the 'Output Board' tonight with no
improvement.  I'll move on to other efforts this weekend.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

Joe

Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a
small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current
is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more
difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by.
In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair
of toroids.
Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this
is probably impractical.

Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across
resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current.

Bruce


J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> Simple enough suggestion.
>
> Replacement transistors should arrive before the weekend.  I will try to
> replace the transistors and re-solder all the connections.
>
> I do not have a current probe but I do have an oscilloscope or two.  Any
> suggestions of a current probe small enough to get into those small
spaces?
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 AM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
> The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
> It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
> can sometimes go high impedance over time.
>
> The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.
>
> If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
> at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.
>
> Bruce
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.
>>     
> They
>   
>> were a total of about 6 MB.
>>
>> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
>> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor,
>>     
> etc.
>   
>> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
>> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
>> likely to be the latter).
>> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
>> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>>     
>>>       
>> computer
>>   
>>     
>>> program?
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> Both.
>> I used LTSpice to check.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>>     
>>>       
>> what
>>   
>>     
>>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>>     
>>>       
>> Yes.
>>   
>>     
>>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the
>>>       
> temperature
>   
>>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>>
>>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> Yes that may help.
>>
>>   
>>     
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>>> load is about 1x.
>>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
>>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>>> input to the buffer.
>>>
>>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>>> 90-100C.
>>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> and
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output
Board'
>>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> with
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> 'Oven'
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3
>>>>         
> screws
>   
>>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> can
>>   
>>     
>>>> be removed.
>>>>
>>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board'
>>>>         
> and
>   
>>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller
>>>>         
> Board'
>   
>>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>>
>>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator
>>>>         
> boards.
>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> I
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I
>>>>         
> have
>   
>>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like
to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> see
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> these, I can send them.
>>>>
>>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as
the
>>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> functional.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>>
>>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.
>>>>         
> I
>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> am
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> It
>>   
>>     
>>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.
2.5
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> VDC
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>>
>>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> low.
>>   
>>     
>>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>>
>>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> possible.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> schematics.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>
>>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> only
>>   
>>     
>>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable
>>>>         
> to
>   
>>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>>
>>>> Good luck.  
>>>>
>>>> Gordon
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>   
>>>>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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>   


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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 03:43:33 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:43:33 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4E57A24B481A496BA6DE34DA3E7B28D3@S0028384766>
References: <4E57A24B481A496BA6DE34DA3E7B28D3@S0028384766>
Message-ID: <4A1F59E5.2020609@xtra.co.nz>

Joe

Oven board solder joints are more likely suspects.
Check all inductors for continuity and measure all resistors.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> I re-soldered all connections on the 'Output Board' tonight with no
> improvement.  I'll move on to other efforts this weekend.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a
> small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current
> is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more
> difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by.
> In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair
> of toroids.
> Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this
> is probably impractical.
>
> Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across
> resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Simple enough suggestion.
>>
>> Replacement transistors should arrive before the weekend.  I will try to
>> replace the transistors and re-solder all the connections.
>>
>> I do not have a current probe but I do have an oscilloscope or two.  Any
>> suggestions of a current probe small enough to get into those small
>>     
> spaces?
>   
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
>> The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
>> It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
>> can sometimes go high impedance over time.
>>
>> The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.
>>
>> If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
>> at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.
>>>     
>>>       
>> They
>>   
>>     
>>> were a total of about 6 MB.
>>>
>>> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
>>> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor,
>>>     
>>>       
>> etc.
>>   
>>     
>>> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
>>> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
>>> likely to be the latter).
>>> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
>>> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> computer
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Both.
>>> I used LTSpice to check.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> what
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Yes.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>>>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>>>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>>>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>>>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>>>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> temperature
>>   
>>     
>>>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>>>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>>>
>>>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Yes that may help.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>>>> load is about 1x.
>>>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>>>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output achievable
>>>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>>>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>>>> input to the buffer.
>>>>
>>>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>>>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>>>> 90-100C.
>>>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>>>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw driver
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> and
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output
>>>>>           
> Board'
>   
>>>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> with
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> 'Oven'
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> screws
>>   
>>     
>>>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> can
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> be removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board'
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> and
>>   
>>     
>>>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> Board'
>>   
>>     
>>>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> boards.
>>   
>>     
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> I
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> have
>>   
>>     
>>>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like
>>>>>           
> to
>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> see
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> these, I can send them.
>>>>>
>>>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as
>>>>>           
> the
>   
>>>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> functional.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can be
>>>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> I
>>   
>>     
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> am
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> It
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.
>>>>>           
> 2.5
>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> VDC
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> low.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> possible.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> schematics.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>>
>>>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.  I
>>>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> only
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> to
>>   
>>     
>>>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck.  
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>   
>>>>>
>>>>>           
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From jltran at worldnet.att.net  Fri May 29 03:51:56 2009
From: jltran at worldnet.att.net (J. L. Trantham)
Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 22:51:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
In-Reply-To: <4A1F59E5.2020609@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <D3E559D05E2D4F42B01E8A0296EEAE3C@S0028384766>

Bruce,

I did that on the 'Output Board' but I haven't done the Oscillator Board
yet.  I need an LCR meter to make my work easier.  It will be necessary to
remove some components to get the correct resistor values but that should
not be too big a problem.

I'll tackle that this weekend when (I hope) the replacement transistors
arrive.

Joe

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 10:44 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50

Joe

Oven board solder joints are more likely suspects.
Check all inductors for continuity and measure all resistors.

Bruce

J. L. Trantham wrote:
> Bruce,
>
> I re-soldered all connections on the 'Output Board' tonight with no
> improvement.  I'll move on to other efforts this weekend.
>
> Joe
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 7:13 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>
> Joe
>
> Whilst its easy enough to construct a miniature RF current probe using a
> small ferrite core which is slipped over the wire in which the current
> is to be measured, constructing one using a split ferrite toroid is more
> difficult as such toroids are difficult to come by.
> In principle one can construct ones own by cutting and grinding a pair
> of toroids.
> Unless one has access to diamond lapping equipment and diamond saws this
> is probably impractical.
>
> Thus you will probably have to revert to measuring the RF voltage across
> resistors in the circuit to get some idea of the RF current.
>
> Bruce
>
>
> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>   
>> Bruce,
>>
>> Simple enough suggestion.
>>
>> Replacement transistors should arrive before the weekend.  I will try to
>> replace the transistors and re-solder all the connections.
>>
>> I do not have a current probe but I do have an oscilloscope or two.  Any
>> suggestions of a current probe small enough to get into those small
>>     
> spaces?
>   
>> Joe
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2009 12:13 AM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> In box is fine, 6MB is relatively small and not a problem.
>> The brown caps look like they might be silver mica.
>> It may be worth resoldering all the solder joints on these caps as they
>> can sometimes go high impedance over time.
>>
>> The ceramic caps marked 103 are 10,000pF = 10nF = 0.01uF.
>>
>> If you have a current probe and oscilloscope it would be useful to look
>> at the RF current flowing in the crystal, oscillator transistor etc.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> Bruce,
>>>
>>> I sent you two pictures directly.  I hope I did not choke your inbox.
>>>     
>>>       
>> They
>>   
>>     
>>> were a total of about 6 MB.
>>>
>>> If so, I can probably reduce the quality and get a smaller file.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>> Sent: Wednesday, May 27, 2009 11:03 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> Low output can be caused by a high impedance path, an open circuit
>>> component, an open solder joint, a low value cap, low gain transistor,
>>>     
>>>       
>> etc.
>>   
>>     
>>> The oscillator limits by either saturating or better cutting off the
>>> oscillator transistor (would need to check to see which but its more
>>> likely to be the latter).
>>> If oscillator transistor cutoff is the limiting mechanism then too low
>>> transistor collector current could be one cause.
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Bruce,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your analysis.  Is this all in your head or do you use a
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> computer
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> program?
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Both.
>>> I used LTSpice to check.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If I understand correctly, you are using the term 'buffer' to describe
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> what
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> I call the 'Output Board'.  
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Yes.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> If so, then the Output Board seems to be doing
>>>> what it is supposed to do and the problem is a low output from the
>>>> Oscillator Board.  Any thoughts as to the cause of the low output?
>>>> Capacitors changing value, resistors changing value, inductors changing
>>>> value (by the way, I need a refresher on how to read the color code of
>>>> inductors), transistors loosing gain?  I have not measured the
>>>>       
>>>>         
>> temperature
>>   
>>     
>>>> but the crystal has '79 C' written on it.  The capacitors appear to be
>>>> dipped silvered mica and the resistors appear to be carbon.
>>>>
>>>> I can send a picture of both boards if that would help.
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> Yes that may help.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 10:43 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> A quick analysis if the buffer indicates that the gain with a 50 ohm
>>>> load is about 1x.
>>>> The gain into a 1M load should be about 4x.
>>>> Simulating the output stage indicates that the maximum output
achievable
>>>> is about 1.6V pp into 1M or 0.4Vpp into 50 ohms.
>>>> However distortion is a bit high. This requires about 0.4Vpp at the
>>>> input to the buffer.
>>>>
>>>> The dc level on the red wire is reasonably consistent with quick
>>>> simulation of the level without oscillation at an oven temperature of
>>>> 90-100C.
>>>> When oscillating the current drawn by the oscillator may increase
>>>> slightly, bringing the value closer to that observed.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce
>>>>
>>>> J. L. Trantham wrote:
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Well, a little work with a scalpel and a small flat bladed screw
driver
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> and
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> I was able to open the package.  Inside is what I call an 'Output
>>>>>           
> Board'
>   
>>>>> that contains the output circuit and the 'FINE' frequency adjust along
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> with
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> the 'Oven' which has the 'COARSE' frequency adjust.  Attached to the
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> 'Oven'
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> is what I call the 'Oven Controller Board'.  With the removal of 3
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> screws
>>   
>>     
>>>>> and the 'nut' on the 'COARSE' frequency adjust, the 'Oscillator Board'
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> can
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> be removed.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have 'derived' the schematic from inspections of the 'Output Board'
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> and
>>   
>>     
>>>>> the 'Oscillator Board'.  I made no attempt at the 'Oven Controller
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> Board'
>>   
>>     
>>>>> since it seems to be operating ok.  More on this below.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have attached the schematics of the output board and oscillator
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> boards.
>>   
>>     
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> I
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> made some measurements of DC and RF voltages on the output board.  I
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> have
>>   
>>     
>>>>> multiple pictures that are too large to attach.  If anyone would like
>>>>>           
> to
>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> see
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> these, I can send them.
>>>>>
>>>>> At start up, the 85-50 draws about 0.5A then falls to about 0.25A as
>>>>>           
> the
>   
>>>>> 'oven' heats up suggesting the temperature regulator circuit is
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> functional.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> The 'COARSE' and 'FINE' frequency adjusts work and the frequency can
be
>>>>> brought spot on as compared to my GPSDO.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have ordered new transistors in the hope that these are the problem.
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> I
>>   
>>     
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> am
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> a little puzzled by the drop in voltage at the 'Red' wire to the oven.
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> It
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> serves both the 'Oscillator Board' and the 'Oven Controller Board'.
>>>>>           
> 2.5
>   
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> VDC
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> seems a little low for the oscillator.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, the gain of the output stage of the output board seems a little
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> low.
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> 0.1 V P-P goes to 0.36 V P-P.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have a second, good, 85-50 but would like to avoid opening it if
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> possible.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Any help would be appreciated.  I hope I made no mistakes on the
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> schematics.
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
On
>>>>> Behalf Of Gordon Batey
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, May 24, 2009 6:50 PM
>>>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Broken Ovenaire OSC 85-50
>>>>>
>>>>> I had an earlier model 20 mhx ovenaire osc that had very low output.
I
>>>>> opened it up with a scalpel and found the TTL chip had failed and was
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>> only
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>>> letting a small amount of the osc signal thru.  I was able to use an
>>>>> external TTl (74LS20 I think) to restore it.  As I recall I was unable
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>> to
>>   
>>     
>>>>> readily get to the chip so I replaced it with an external one.  
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck.  
>>>>>
>>>>> Gordon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>   
>>>>>
>>>>>           
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>   
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>     
>>>>>       
>>>>>         
>>>>>           
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>
>>>>   
>>>>     
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>     
>>>       
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>   
>>     
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>   
>>>     
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
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>>
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>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>     
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>   
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>   
>>     
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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>   


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From jflan at tampabay.rr.com  Fri May 29 13:47:57 2009
From: jflan at tampabay.rr.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:47:57 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
Message-ID: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>


Hi..
I need help understanding a few things in regards to my 10544A oscillator.

I was given an osc about 5 years ago that did not have the oven 
controller.  The
owner at that time had built his own version which did not work well.  I 
completely
removed everything he had done and duplicated the original oven using the
osc schematics that are available.  At that point the osc went on the 
shelf until
a couple of weeks ago.  I decided to go ahead and calibrate the oven 
temperature
in order to select the correct resistor to set the temp at the turning 
point.

Here is my confusion:
I understand that the 10544 oscillators used AT cut crystals, which 
means that
after warmup, I need to tweak the temp for a freq MIN.  Whereas, for an SC
cut xtal osc we would be looking for a freq MAX.  For both xtal cuts the 
turning
point is typically set for somewhere in the 75 - 85 C range.  I see where my
10544 osc is sitting about 1.5KHz LOW at room temp and then increases
in freq at warmup (OVEN temp rising).  I thought that at room temp the
freq (for AT osc) would be HIGH and decrease in freq as the oven warms.
After a full warmup, I would then adjust the temp slowly, watching the 
freq for
a min, at which time, as the oven is made hotter, the freq would then 
start in the
opposite direction(positive).

In my mind, my osc seems to act as though it is using an SC cut crystal...
Is my thinking all wrong here?

I've been studying he classic df/f vs Temp curves and my osc appears to be
opposite of the curves, assuming my osc does use an AT xtal.

I would appreciate someone setting me straight in regards to this..
Thanks
Jim
jflan at tampabay.rr.com





From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 14:58:09 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 02:58:09 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
References: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A1FF801.3030003@xtra.co.nz>

Jim

Where did you get the idea that the 10544A uses an AT cut crystal?
At least some of them used a BT cut crystal.
There are 2 sets of specs for the 10544A.
The specs on the earlier data sheets are worse than the specs on the
later data sheets.

Bruce

Jim Flanagan wrote:
>
> Hi..
> I need help understanding a few things in regards to my 10544A
> oscillator.
>
> I was given an osc about 5 years ago that did not have the oven
> controller.  The
> owner at that time had built his own version which did not work well. 
> I completely
> removed everything he had done and duplicated the original oven using the
> osc schematics that are available.  At that point the osc went on the
> shelf until
> a couple of weeks ago.  I decided to go ahead and calibrate the oven
> temperature
> in order to select the correct resistor to set the temp at the turning
> point.
>
> Here is my confusion:
> I understand that the 10544 oscillators used AT cut crystals, which
> means that
> after warmup, I need to tweak the temp for a freq MIN.  Whereas, for
> an SC
> cut xtal osc we would be looking for a freq MAX.  For both xtal cuts
> the turning
> point is typically set for somewhere in the 75 - 85 C range.  I see
> where my
> 10544 osc is sitting about 1.5KHz LOW at room temp and then increases
> in freq at warmup (OVEN temp rising).  I thought that at room temp the
> freq (for AT osc) would be HIGH and decrease in freq as the oven warms.
> After a full warmup, I would then adjust the temp slowly, watching the
> freq for
> a min, at which time, as the oven is made hotter, the freq would then
> start in the
> opposite direction(positive).
>
> In my mind, my osc seems to act as though it is using an SC cut
> crystal...
> Is my thinking all wrong here?
>
> I've been studying he classic df/f vs Temp curves and my osc appears
> to be
> opposite of the curves, assuming my osc does use an AT xtal.
>
> I would appreciate someone setting me straight in regards to this..
> Thanks
> Jim
> jflan at tampabay.rr.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From richard at karlquist.com  Fri May 29 15:35:29 2009
From: richard at karlquist.com (Richard (Rick) Karlquist)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:35:29 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
References: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A2000C1.4010703@karlquist.com>

Jim Flanagan wrote:
> 
> 
> after warmup, I need to tweak the temp for a freq MIN.  Whereas, for an SC
> cut xtal osc we would be looking for a freq MAX.  For both xtal cuts the 
> turning
> point is typically set for somewhere in the 75 - 85 C range.  I see 

> Jim
> jflan at tampabay.rr.com

The majority of 10811 SC-cut crystals do not have a temperature 
turnover.  Instead they have an inflection point where the tempco is 
minimum, but not zero.  It is fairly broad, so the oven set point is
not especially critical.  If you want to tweak something in the 10811,
better to tweak the resistors that apportion heater power to the
two transistors, to maximum thermal gain.

In the case of an oscillator that does have a turnover, you do not
necessarily want to set the oven temperature to the turnover.  Instead 
you want to offset it so that there is a nonzero crystal tempco that 
happens to cancel out the tempco of the oscillator electronics.

Rick Karlquist N6RK


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Fri May 29 15:47:13 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 08:47:13 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
References: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <45511EB4771142438036A3ECCF2184FD@pc52>

See:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1981-03.pdf

/tvb



From brooke at pacific.net  Fri May 29 16:09:56 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 09:09:56 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
Message-ID: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>

Hi:

I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up screen, see:
http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml

But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone have a pdf 
manual or know how to kick start one of these?

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke


From jflan at tampabay.rr.com  Fri May 29 17:14:02 2009
From: jflan at tampabay.rr.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:14:02 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A1FF801.3030003@xtra.co.nz>
References: <4A1FF801.3030003@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4A2017DA.9010400@tampabay.rr.com>

Thanks, Bruce for clearing this up.

I've only seen references on the internet that the 10544 used AT cut 
crystals.  Another
fellow responded with an HP journal article that is a good read on the 
SC cut crystals.
They also referenced the 10544 performance along with the 10811 osc.  
This helps
a bunch.  Take care
Jim


From jflan at tampabay.rr.com  Fri May 29 17:15:03 2009
From: jflan at tampabay.rr.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:15:03 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <45511EB4771142438036A3ECCF2184FD@pc52>
References: <45511EB4771142438036A3ECCF2184FD@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A201817.3010503@tampabay.rr.com>

Excellent read... Thanks, that helps me out a bunch
take care..
jim


From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri May 29 17:49:50 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:50 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] time to get a reference clock for the shop
In-Reply-To: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <f17c223b0896f4e73b597fc9659737b9.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

By the end of the year, I want to upgrade my shop with a
reference clock derived from GPS. Suggestions on the way
to go now that the supply of old Cell Phone clocks seemed
to have dried up ? I don't mind building a disciplined osc.

Hopefully not too much a loaded question :-) ...

-pete




From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri May 29 17:53:43 2009
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:53:43 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] ment to say reference oscillator Re: time to get a
 reference clock for the shop
In-Reply-To: <f17c223b0896f4e73b597fc9659737b9.squirrel@petelancashire.com>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<f17c223b0896f4e73b597fc9659737b9.squirrel@petelancashire.com>
Message-ID: <8872660134e593f84284a9a38e9fbfd7.squirrel@petelancashire.com>

> By the end of the year, I want to upgrade my shop with a
> reference clock derived from GPS. Suggestions on the way
> to go now that the supply of old Cell Phone clocks seemed
> to have dried up ? I don't mind building a disciplined osc.
>
> Hopefully not too much a loaded question :-) ...
>
> -pete
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From w1ksz at earthlink.net  Fri May 29 17:50:30 2009
From: w1ksz at earthlink.net (Richard W. Solomon)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 13:50:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] ment to say reference oscillator Re: time to get a
 reference clock for the shop
Message-ID: <23589484.1243619430183.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

The simplest is the N1JEZ variation. I built two of them.
The only problem may be the boards.

You can also get in line for the next Trimble T-Bolt lot.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

-----Original Message-----
>From: Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
>Sent: May 29, 2009 1:53 PM
>To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: [time-nuts] ment to say reference oscillator Re: time to get a reference clock for the shop
>
>> By the end of the year, I want to upgrade my shop with a
>> reference clock derived from GPS. Suggestions on the way
>> to go now that the supply of old Cell Phone clocks seemed
>> to have dried up ? I don't mind building a disciplined osc.
>>
>> Hopefully not too much a loaded question :-) ...
>>
>> -pete
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>and follow the instructions there.



From jim.cotton at wmich.edu  Fri May 29 18:38:56 2009
From: jim.cotton at wmich.edu (Jim Cotton)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:38:56 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola GPS board with OnCore module questions
In-Reply-To: <f17c223b0896f4e73b597fc9659737b9.squirrel@petelancashire.com>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<f17c223b0896f4e73b597fc9659737b9.squirrel@petelancashire.com>
Message-ID: <4A202BC0.2050101@wmich.edu>


I have a Motorola RF-Audience! module with a GPS receiver
(disciplined time source).

I am not sure how to identify it....

Motorola 848504F01 P4, PTRN4307A, Copyright 1996, 4" x 11",
has an OnCore GPS receiver installed.

Front

LED's                                  9pin "D"    BNC
pwr 10Mhz GPS 1PPS       RS232        10Mhz


Back

9pin"D"  15pin "D"         BNC
Power    GPS/Timing    10Mhz

To make it more than a nice looking paperweight, I need:

1.  A manual, or at the least connector pin outs.

2.  Someone removed the OCXO.....

    a. part number and source at a reasonable cost to replace the OCXO...

    b. Has someone already hacked a HP 10811, or HP 10544 to this board?

Jim Cotton
n8qoh


From SAIDJACK at aol.com  Fri May 29 18:50:16 2009
From: SAIDJACK at aol.com (SAIDJACK at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:50:16 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] time to get a reference clock for the shop
Message-ID: <d3e.3db0c052.37518868@aol.com>

Hi Pete,
 
your best and least expensive path may be to buy a Thunderbolt or  
Thunderbolt package (power supply, antenna etc) from the GPS store in  China.

Search ebay for Trimble Thunderbolt...
 
bye,
Said
 
 
In a message dated 5/29/2009 10:44:36 Pacific Daylight Time,  
pete at petelancashire.com writes:

By the  end of the year, I want to upgrade my shop with a
reference clock derived  from GPS. Suggestions on the way
to go now that the supply of old Cell  Phone clocks seemed
to have dried up ? I don't mind building a disciplined  osc.

Hopefully not too much a loaded question :-)  ...

-pete



_______________________________________________
time-nuts  mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to  
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the  instructions there.



From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri May 29 18:57:53 2009
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:57:53 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] time to get a reference clock for the shop
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1474.1243622356.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.1474.1243622356.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <BLU125-W71D6A81D5C1C2FED973BACE510@phx.gbl>


No,  search Ebay for  'thunderbolt gps'...  you will get 10 times as many hits.  For 200 bucks you can get a complete, ready to go system.  For $100 bucks or so you can get the basic unit and add your own power supply, antenna, etc.  Seller fluke.l has a pretty good reputation for backing up his sales if things go wrong.

-------------
Hi Pete,
 
your best and least expensive path may be to buy a Thunderbolt or  
Thunderbolt package (power supply, antenna etc) from the GPS store in  China.

Search ebay for Trimble Thunderbolt...
 
bye,
Said
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Fri May 29 19:00:23 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:00:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>

> Hi:
> 
> I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up screen, see:
> http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
> 
> But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone have a pdf 
> manual or know how to kick start one of these?

Brooke,

My Z12-T requires an external 20 MHz reference clock; I'm not
familiar with your -R model but it too may require this. It's not
uncommon for high-end geodetic-grade timing receivers to rely
on an external clock (e.g., cesium or maser). The idea is that
all received GPS signals are referenced to a real external clock
instead of an internal or virtual gps clock, or something like that.

So try that first. The quality of the 20 MHz is not important just
to see if it starts working. But clearly, to get good results, you'll
want to lock your 20 MHz to something atomic.

When I got my Z12 I played a bit with how to get 20 MHz. See:
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/20mhz/

/tvb



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 29 19:28:00 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 21:28:00 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] time to get a reference clock for the shop
In-Reply-To: <BLU125-W71D6A81D5C1C2FED973BACE510@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.1474.1243622356.2451.time-nuts@febo.com>
	<BLU125-W71D6A81D5C1C2FED973BACE510@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4A203740.7060406@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Mark Sims skrev:
> No,  search Ebay for  'thunderbolt gps'...  you will get 10 times as many hits.  For 200 bucks you can get a complete, ready to go system.  For $100 bucks or so you can get the basic unit and add your own power supply, antenna, etc.  Seller fluke.l has a pretty good reputation for backing up his sales if things go wrong.

I second this.

A Thunderbolt with powersupply, antenna etc. is a very nice way to get 
started. Hacking cell phones is not as good long term as getting one of 
those, and you get fairly well started. Marks software is a nice 
addition to it.

Cheers,
Magnus


From brooke at pacific.net  Fri May 29 19:28:37 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 12:28:37 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A203765.9000003@pacific.net>

Hi Tom:

How can I tell if the external clock is working?

I'm using Thunderbolt -> HP 8648A -> Z-12.

Have Fun,

Brooke

Tom Van Baak wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up 
>> screen, see:
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>
>> But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone 
>> have a pdf manual or know how to kick start one of these?
> 
> Brooke,
> 
> My Z12-T requires an external 20 MHz reference clock; I'm not
> familiar with your -R model but it too may require this. It's not
> uncommon for high-end geodetic-grade timing receivers to rely
> on an external clock (e.g., cesium or maser). The idea is that
> all received GPS signals are referenced to a real external clock
> instead of an internal or virtual gps clock, or something like that.
> 
> So try that first. The quality of the 20 MHz is not important just
> to see if it starts working. But clearly, to get good results, you'll
> want to lock your 20 MHz to something atomic.
> 
> When I got my Z12 I played a bit with how to get 20 MHz. See:
> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/20mhz/
> 
> /tvb
> 


From bg at lysator.liu.se  Fri May 29 20:11:44 2009
From: bg at lysator.liu.se (bg at lysator.liu.se)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 22:11:44 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
Message-ID: <56930.87.227.52.225.1243627904.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>

Brooke & Tom,

>> Hi:
>>
>> I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up screen,
>> see:
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>
>> But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone
>> have a pdf
>> manual or know how to kick start one of these?
>
> Brooke,
>
> My Z12-T requires an external 20 MHz reference clock; I'm not
> familiar with your -R model but it too may require this. It's not
> uncommon for high-end geodetic-grade timing receivers to rely
> on an external clock (e.g., cesium or maser). The idea is that
> all received GPS signals are referenced to a real external clock
> instead of an internal or virtual gps clock, or something like that.
>
> So try that first. The quality of the 20 MHz is not important just
> to see if it starts working. But clearly, to get good results, you'll
> want to lock your 20 MHz to something atomic.
>
> When I got my Z12 I played a bit with how to get 20 MHz. See:
> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/20mhz/
>
> /tvb

My Z12 does not eat 20MHz. (5MHz to 10MHz works IIRC)

Look for manual and other documentation around the below URL:

  ftp://ftp.magellangps.com/Reference Stations/EOL/Z12 Marine Ref. Sta/

Outside of the timing community, I suspect rubidiums are more common
external sources than CS/H-masers.

--

    Bj?rn



From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Fri May 29 20:53:34 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 22:53:34 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <56930.87.227.52.225.1243627904.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
	<56930.87.227.52.225.1243627904.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
Message-ID: <4A204B4E.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org>

bg at lysator.liu.se skrev:
> Brooke & Tom,
> 
>>> Hi:
>>>
>>> I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up screen,
>>> see:
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>>
>>> But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone
>>> have a pdf
>>> manual or know how to kick start one of these?
>> Brooke,
>>
>> My Z12-T requires an external 20 MHz reference clock; I'm not
>> familiar with your -R model but it too may require this. It's not
>> uncommon for high-end geodetic-grade timing receivers to rely
>> on an external clock (e.g., cesium or maser). The idea is that
>> all received GPS signals are referenced to a real external clock
>> instead of an internal or virtual gps clock, or something like that.
>>
>> So try that first. The quality of the 20 MHz is not important just
>> to see if it starts working. But clearly, to get good results, you'll
>> want to lock your 20 MHz to something atomic.
>>
>> When I got my Z12 I played a bit with how to get 20 MHz. See:
>> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/20mhz/
>>
>> /tvb
> 
> My Z12 does not eat 20MHz. (5MHz to 10MHz works IIRC)

It should be configurable in 1 to 21 MHz in what appears to be 10 kHz 
steps. I'll will experiment with them.

I think the Z12T bypasses the PLL lock and just buffers up the incomming 
20 MHz and feeds it to the ADCs and DSP.

I racked Z12 is probably just a Z12T, which would make sense.

> Outside of the timing community, I suspect rubidiums are more common
> external sources than CS/H-masers.

Ionsphere, diffrential GPS and position ref stations use everything from 
OCXOs to hydrogen masers.

Cheers,
Magnus


From jfor at quik.com  Fri May 29 21:09:48 2009
From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:09:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <4A204B4E.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
	<56930.87.227.52.225.1243627904.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
	<4A204B4E.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <1069.12.6.201.159.1243631388.squirrel@pop.quik.com>


From stanw1le at verizon.net  Fri May 29 20:20:51 2009
From: stanw1le at verizon.net (Stan W1LE)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:20:51 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Trimble T'Bolt Firmware Versions
Message-ID: <4A2043A3.8080001@verizon.net>

Hello The Net:

So far I have experienced 2 different versions of the T'Bolt firmware.

I have  revision 3.0 of 27 June 2002 ( mfg date: 29 August 2006)
and 2.12 of 24 April 2000 (mfg date: 23 August 2000).

Using Lady Heather to compare, both versions perform similarly, when 
satellites are available.
version 3.0 performs better under a forced manual holdover.

I use a single active (patch) antenna outside at gutter height and a
Symmetricom 090-58537-01 GPS Active Smartsplitter, 1 X 4
to feed RF to the 2 T'bolts.

There looks to be a version 2.22 T'Bolt firmware also.

Have folks experienced other versions of firmware ?

Stan, W1LE    Cape Cod   FN41sr




ZZZZz


From brooke at pacific.net  Fri May 29 22:28:24 2009
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 15:28:24 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <4A204B4E.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>	<56930.87.227.52.225.1243627904.squirrel@webmail.lysator.liu.se>
	<4A204B4E.5050207@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A206188.8090908@pacific.net>

Hi:

Holding down the ^ (up arrow) while turning on the power switch sets it to 
factory defaults.  I also have the external 20 MHz into the Ref Freq input.
Now it's tracking sats and displaying the GMT time correctly and a position 
good to 0.0001 minutes of Lat and Lon., i.e.:
39:11.4065 N
123:09.8448 W
248.63 m WGS84 (there's bobble of 10 or 20 meters on the elevation.

Thanks very much & Have Fun,

Brooke


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 23:21:00 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:21:00 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <45511EB4771142438036A3ECCF2184FD@pc52>
References: <4A1FE78D.1020103@tampabay.rr.com>
	<45511EB4771142438036A3ECCF2184FD@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A206DDC.6080702@xtra.co.nz>

Page 20 of that issue is blank.
This page has  useful info on the 10811A.

Bruce

Tom Van Baak wrote:
> See:
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/1981-03.pdf
>
> /tvb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 23:27:31 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:27:31 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A2017DA.9010400@tampabay.rr.com>
References: <4A1FF801.3030003@xtra.co.nz> <4A2017DA.9010400@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A206F63.5000904@xtra.co.nz>

Jim

A couple of references from HP  authors (R Burgoon, RL Wilson) that
mention the 10544 using a BT cut:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F10313%2F32746%2F01537287.pdf%3Fisnumber%3D32746%26prod%3DCNF%26arnumber%3D1537287%26arSt%3D%2B406%26ared%3D%2B410%26arAuthor%3DBurgoon%252C%2BR.%253B%2BWilson%252C%2BR.L.&authDecision=-203
<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F10313%2F32746%2F01537287.pdf%3Fisnumber%3D32746%26prod%3DCNF%26arnumber%3D1537287%26arSt%3D%2B406%26ared%3D%2B410%26arAuthor%3DBurgoon%252C%2BR.%253B%2BWilson%252C%2BR.L.&authDecision=-203>

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F10313%2F32746%2F01537288.pdf%3Farnumber%3D1537288&authDecision=-203
<http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel5%2F10313%2F32746%2F01537288.pdf%3Farnumber%3D1537288&authDecision=-203>

Bruce

Jim Flanagan wrote:
> Thanks, Bruce for clearing this up.
>
> I've only seen references on the internet that the 10544 used AT cut
> crystals.  Another
> fellow responded with an HP journal article that is a good read on the
> SC cut crystals.
> They also referenced the 10544 performance along with the 10811 osc. 
> This helps
> a bunch.  Take care
> Jim
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>



From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Fri May 29 23:46:13 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 11:46:13 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] Ashtech Z-12-R Operation?
In-Reply-To: <BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
References: <4A2008D4.8040802@pacific.net>
	<BEEBE5083DD64D7191E127234DF6F153@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A2073C5.8010407@xtra.co.nz>

Tom Van Baak wrote:
>> Hi:
>>
>> I got an Ashtech Z-12-R that powers up and displays the start up
>> screen, see:
>> http://www.prc68.com/I/AshtechZ12.shtml
>>
>> But it does not progress or respond to button presses.  Does someone
>> have a pdf manual or know how to kick start one of these?
>
> Brooke,
>
> My Z12-T requires an external 20 MHz reference clock; I'm not
> familiar with your -R model but it too may require this. It's not
> uncommon for high-end geodetic-grade timing receivers to rely
> on an external clock (e.g., cesium or maser). The idea is that
> all received GPS signals are referenced to a real external clock
> instead of an internal or virtual gps clock, or something like that.
>
> So try that first. The quality of the 20 MHz is not important just
> to see if it starts working. But clearly, to get good results, you'll
> want to lock your 20 MHz to something atomic.
>
> When I got my Z12 I played a bit with how to get 20 MHz. See:
> http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/20mhz/
>
> /tvb
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
Tom

An injection locked oscillator with high level subharmonic injection
also works well.
Just use the appropriate topology for the oscillator and injected signal.
The injection locked oscillator acts like a first order PLL with built
in phase detector and loop filter.
The one drawback is that the phase shift with respect to the injected
signal is determined by the oscillator tank detuning.
A low Q tank is used so the phase shift tempco will be relatively small
if low tempco tank components are used.

Bruce


From va2hdd at aei.ca  Sat May 30 00:44:57 2009
From: va2hdd at aei.ca (Claude Houde)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 20:44:57 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 2100
Message-ID: <4A208189.7080602@aei.ca>

Hello !

Here is a follow up on my previous thread on the Austron 2100F.

After getting the unit I found out that the power supply is dead.

I was able to start up the receiver with my lab power supply.

It seems to work, but the keyboard bounces terribly, randomly filling 
the display with the last key pressed.

An older thread on that subject pinpoints the 1uF bypass on the display 
keyboard as the culprit, I will change all the electrolytics and 
tantalums and will keep you informed if I see an improvement in 
performance afterwards

I will again need your help to finish the repair job:

    * I bought Brook Clark's manual on CD, but in all flavours of the
      2100 the power supply is shown as a black box, without any
      details.  Mine has an SG3524 PWM controller driving a T03
      transistor, with a Lambda over voltage protection and a small
      DC-AC converter for the EL back light. Is there any known
      schematic of that beast ? I can of course reverse engineer it
      (after all it is an important part of the fun, isn't it ?) but I
      would rather avoid the extra work if I can.
    * If someone is using a 2100 in the north east part of the continent
      , like New-England, Quebec, etc., what type of antenna should I use ?
    * On my receiver both sides of the case were damaged, on the right
      side the handle is broken, and the left one it is bent inward, so
      much that I'm afraid of breaking it if I try to straighten it. I
      would be interested in buying either a junker receiver that has a
      nice case or just the side panels.
    * What is the general feeling about the disappearance of LORAN-C ? I
      read some documents, seem that the US coast guard wants to drop
      the service.

Thanks to all !

Claude



From cfharris at erols.com  Sat May 30 01:07:31 2009
From: cfharris at erols.com (Chuck Harris)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 21:07:31 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 2100
In-Reply-To: <4A208189.7080602@aei.ca>
References: <4A208189.7080602@aei.ca>
Message-ID: <4A2086D3.1090205@erols.com>

Hi Claude,

As the author of the article on key bounce, I must say that the
1uf caps are not bypass, but the actual timing capacitors that
determine how long the keypad chip waits before declaring that
the key has stopped bouncing.  They are a very high quality cap,
and won't be bad.  The problem is the keypad has gotten noisy and
it takes longer to settle than it did when it was new, hence the
change in the keybounce time constant.

I don't think you will need to replace the capacitors in the
2100F, they are high quality wet tantalums.  Check them, but
you will probably not find any that are bad.

Do not mess around with the small stack of circuit cards that
is off by itself.  Those capacitors are critical!

The 2100F is very sensitive.  It is designed to work with a loop
antenna that is a transformer isolated 3 foot square loop made
from electrical conduit boxes, and aluminum tubing... copper would
do fine, as would steel.  There is one turn of 5 conductor antenna
rotor cable inside of the loop.

-Chuck Harris

Claude Houde wrote:
> Hello !
> 
> Here is a follow up on my previous thread on the Austron 2100F.
> 
> After getting the unit I found out that the power supply is dead.
> 
> I was able to start up the receiver with my lab power supply.
> 
> It seems to work, but the keyboard bounces terribly, randomly filling 
> the display with the last key pressed.
> 
> An older thread on that subject pinpoints the 1uF bypass on the display 
> keyboard as the culprit, I will change all the electrolytics and 
> tantalums and will keep you informed if I see an improvement in 
> performance afterwards
> 
> I will again need your help to finish the repair job:
> 
>    * I bought Brook Clark's manual on CD, but in all flavours of the
>      2100 the power supply is shown as a black box, without any
>      details.  Mine has an SG3524 PWM controller driving a T03
>      transistor, with a Lambda over voltage protection and a small
>      DC-AC converter for the EL back light. Is there any known
>      schematic of that beast ? I can of course reverse engineer it
>      (after all it is an important part of the fun, isn't it ?) but I
>      would rather avoid the extra work if I can.
>    * If someone is using a 2100 in the north east part of the continent
>      , like New-England, Quebec, etc., what type of antenna should I use ?
>    * On my receiver both sides of the case were damaged, on the right
>      side the handle is broken, and the left one it is bent inward, so
>      much that I'm afraid of breaking it if I try to straighten it. I
>      would be interested in buying either a junker receiver that has a
>      nice case or just the side panels.
>    * What is the general feeling about the disappearance of LORAN-C ? I
>      read some documents, seem that the US coast guard wants to drop
>      the service.
> 
> Thanks to all !
> 
> Claude
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From jfor at quik.com  Sat May 30 01:26:45 2009
From: jfor at quik.com (J. Forster)
Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 18:26:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 2100
In-Reply-To: <4A208189.7080602@aei.ca>
References: <4A208189.7080602@aei.ca>
Message-ID: <42849.12.6.201.2.1243646805.squirrel@pop.quik.com>

The official 2100F antenna is a square shielded loop, roughly a 3' x 3'
meters, made of aluminum tubing roughly 3/4" OD. I think it's aluminum
conduit as the connections are made to the coil inside the conduit loop
via an electrician's box in the middle of one side. Opposite the conduit
box, there is an insulating segment, so the loop is not a shorted turn.

Before I got an official loop, I drove 4 nails in a roughly 4' x 4' square
into the 2x4 studs on the gable end of my attic and made a loop by winding
a few dozen turns of #16 wire on the nails. The ends of the coil were
connected to a piece of RG-58 and hence to the 2100F. Pretty crude, but it
has worked just fine in the Boston area for 20 years+. I never bothered to
put up the official loop. It could be shielded by wrapping with copper or
aluminum tape.

The LORAN signals I get are whopping and are easily visible on a 'scope
w/o any preamplifier.

If there are a lot of thunderstorms, the unit does occasionally loose lock
(1 or 2 times / year)

Best,
-John

==========

> Hello !
>
> Here is a follow up on my previous thread on the Austron 2100F.
[snip]

>     * If someone is using a 2100 in the north east part of the continent
>       , like New-England, Quebec, etc., what type of antenna should I use
[snip]





From rexa at sonic.net  Sat May 30 07:15:53 2009
From: rexa at sonic.net (Rex)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:15:53 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3816A and UT GPS questions
Message-ID: <4A20DD29.3040103@sonic.net>

Does anyone remember much about the old Motorola Oncore UT GPS receivers?

I have an HP Z3816a GPS timing receiver. I've been meaning for a long 
time to add a display for UTC time to it for a while. Today I finally 
got that project built and installed, and it works as intended, but I'm 
seeing something that doesn't make too much sense to me.

On the display -- others have done similar things before me, like this:
http://www.realhamradio.com/dclock.htm

For mine I built a board that uses a 16F628A PIC micro to drive a 4-line 
LCD display. Inside the Z3816A, I probed around and found an unused row 
of header pins that has the serial lines to the UT receiver board. It 
also, conviently, has +5 V power. I soldered wires to 4 of these pins 
and added a 4-pin mini-DIN connector to bring 4 lines out of the box -- 
UT RX, TX, +5V and Ground. From this connector I have a cable that runs 
to my board with the PIC and display. I only actually tap into the one 
serial line that has the serial data coming out of the UT board. (No 
sense trying to drive, or monitor, the line into the UT that is already 
being driven by the Z3816A main board.)

I wanted to leave the Z3816A functioning normally and leave the DB-9 
serial out connector for GPSCon or other software, but also add this 
display so that I can get some useful information from the box without 
needing to devote a PC to the task.

I put up a temporary web page, with some pictures of what I have done, here:
http://www.xertech.net/ClockUT/ClockUT1.html
You can click the thumbnails for bigger versions. No detailed 
description on the web yet.

So I capture the @@Ea message that comes out of the Oncore UT board once 
a second and parse that to get the UTC time and date to display. The LCD 
display looks like this...
  --------------------
   UTC: 20:14:19
  DATE: 29-MAY-2009
        NS Typ Rst Ovr
  STAT: 07  81  08 000
  --------------------

The first two lines should be obvious. They come from parsing the time 
and date in the @@Ea message.

The next two lines are for a few bytes of status information. The last 
number, below 'Ovr' on the LCD, is a counter for serial overruns in the 
PIC hardware/software, which so far remains 000 all the time. The other 
three numbers, under NS, Typ, and Rst are hex status bytes from the @@Ea 
message. I thought they would be good for a sanity check on the 
operation of the Z3816A with no PC connected and limited information 
from the four Z3816A front-panel LEDs.

These status bytes, or more correctly 2 of the 3, are what is confusing 
me and what I'd like any help understanding. The most useful byte (as I 
expected) seems weird.

The first, labeled NS, is the byte representing number of satellites 
tracked from the @@Ea message. This number makes sense on my 
observations and matches What I see from GPSCon when the PC is connected 
at the same time.

On the other two bytes, Typ is the 'DOP type' byte and Rst is the 
'receiver status flag' byte. These two bytes seem to change 
simultaneously and at appropriate times but the values I see don't make 
sense to me based on the descriptions in the Motorola Oncore documentation.

Here is a link to a documant like the one I used to parse the @@Ea message:
http://gpsd.berlios.de/vendor-docs/motorola/ch6.pdf
(Note - some other versions have no info about a lot of these bits)

It says this about the DOP type byte:
t DOP type
 (msb) Bit 7: antenna undercurrent *
       Bit 6: antenna overcurrent *
       Bit 5: automatic survey mode
       Bit 4: not used
       Bit 3: not used
       Bit 2: not used
       Bit 1: not used
 (lsb) Bit 0: set = HDOP (2D)
              clear = PDOP (3D)


and for the receiver status byte:
s receiver status flag
Each bit represents one of the following:
 (msb) Bit 7: position propagate mode
       Bit 6: poor geometry (DOP > 12)
       Bit 5: 3D fix
       Bit 4: 2D fix
       Bit 3: acquiring satellites/position hold
       Bit 2: differential fix
       Bit 1: insufficient visible satellites (< 3)
 (lsb) Bit 0: bad almanac


When I start my Z3816A cold, I see this general sequence of status over 
a couple of hours, with all but the last change in the first several 
minutes...

 NS Typ Rst
 __ ___ ___
 00  81  09
 01  81  09
            [time becomes valid around here]
 02  81  09
 03  81  41
 04  81  41
 04  80  21
 05  80  21
            [GPS Lock LED around here]
 06  80  21
 05  80  20
            [Loong delay - NS goes up and down]
            [No change of Typ or Rst]
            [GPSCon says survey is happening]
 06  81  08
            [The above last change may be when survey ends
             but I never witnessed the exact point]
 ..  81  08 [seems to be normal operation forever]


So, my observations of the three status bytes...

NS makes sense and tracks with GPSCon

Rst makes sense if I assume the bit-3 has two different meanings
   aquiring early and
   position hold later after it has gone off for a while

DOP type seems all wrong
    high bit 7 is always on and I have no antenna alarm LED or GPSCon 
warnings
               if I unplug the antenna I get an alarm eventually but no 
change here
    low bit 1 changes at various stages of startup but seems not related 
to 2D/3D

As an experiment, I put various resistances in parallel with the antenna 
coax. I dropped it down to eventually 33 ohms. At this point the 
satellite signals went to crap but the high bit of DOP type was still on.

So, that's my story.

I don't think my PIC software is broken. If it was, first guess is 
offset into the @@Ea message. I have the time / date right, last byte of 
chksum computes, near-by bytes don't make sense as values if I was off 
in finding the byte.

Does anyone have any knowledge of this 'DOP type' byte I am trying to 
use? When GPSCon sees the box in survey mode, bit 5 of this byte is not 
on and seems it ought to be. Probably I should just ignore this strange 
byte but I like to have things understood.

And of course, all is working fine beyond these status bytes. I don't 
think anything needs fixing except my understanding and possibly some 
dumb thing in my PIC code. I'd like to clean up or reduce the display 
before moving the box to a nice home spot.

Note: If some of the above is hard to read, you may want to try a fixed 
pitch font. If that doesn't help, it's probably my fault.



From swithrow at idcomm.com  Sat May 30 14:21:06 2009
From: swithrow at idcomm.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:21:06 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Austron 2100 Antenna
Message-ID: <20090530142107.14CAB394067@mailhost.idcomm.com>


I have run an Austron 2100 for a long time with a home-made antenna 
consisting of a short (15') vertical wire with an active impedence 
transformer at the base.  It is just a FET source follower where the wire 
drives the base and the source drives the coax to the receiver.  Power is 
fed up the coax via a home-made power inserter. 

A longer wire would probably work better, but it is pretty simple.  I have 
the schematics somewhere, but would have to dig for the file. 

Regards,
Skip Withrow


From jmiles at pop.net  Sat May 30 14:32:46 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 07:32:46 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Picket fence ADEV measurement on 5370 counters
In-Reply-To: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJCEGJCBAC.jmiles@pop.net>

Further to this:

> I'm not sure it's possible to make continuous stability
> measurements (Allan
> deviation, etc.) directly with a 5370 since they don't support
> running/overlapped measurements between readings.  If you can work with a
> 1-pps output and can provide a divider for your reference, it can be done
> with a picket-fence technique (e.g.
> http://horology.jpl.nasa.gov/papers/picket_uffc.pdf ) which I
> haven't tried
> yet.
>
> If anyone thinks it might be worthwhile, I could throw together a GPIB app
> to implement Greenhall's paper for the 5370B with a Prologix or
> NI board...
> but my guess is that most people have been using other gear for
> that sort of
> thing.

So, having just received and built two TADD-2 dividers (which look and work
great!), I started to look at the Greenhall paper in more detail today, with
an eye towards getting some picket-fence code running for the HP 5370B.  It
seems easy enough to implement, but there are a couple of things I don't
understand about the process.

1) Why all the math?  This should be a trivial algorithm, you just fetch
successive A-B time intervals from the counter and scale the intervals
directly into relative phase between source A and reference B.  Instead,
Greenhall describes a more complex unfolding algorithm that resembles a
forward-differencing technique with a fudge factor (lambda-Z), whose purpose
is ostensibly to "follow large, slow changes in (the beatnote interval
times)."

This makes little sense because if the beatnote ever drifts too close to the
picket phase from the reference, the counter will start to miss edges
regardless of what the software does.  Any practical use of the picket-fence
algorithm with drifting 1-pps sources would be limited to total runtimes
less than the amount of time needed for the sources to drift into phase with
each other.  That wouldn't be a big problem in practice -- two 10 MHz
sources 100 Hz apart would take over one day to complete a phase crossing,
and (presumably) nobody would try to measure reference/DUT sources that far
apart.

2) Something peculiar that my 5370B does: when the A-B time interval is
about 60 milliseconds either side of coincidence, the counter fails to
report a measurement at every other second.  E.g.:

Sat May 30 06:37:47 2009     TI = 9.48645886170E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:48 2009     TI = 9.48645890060E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:49 2009     TI = 9.48645893870E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:50 2009     TI = 9.48645897320E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:51 2009     TI = 9.48645901190E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:52 2009     TI = 9.48656259040E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:53 2009     TI = 9.48756252730E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:54 2009     TI = 9.48856246600E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:55 2009     TI = 9.48956240020E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:56 2009     TI = 9.49056233810E-01
Sat May 30 06:37:58 2009     TI = 9.49256221440E-01
Sat May 30 06:38:00 2009     TI = 9.49861762440E-01
Sat May 30 06:38:02 2009     TI = 9.51787261680E-01
Sat May 30 06:38:04 2009     TI = 9.53785271190E-01
Sat May 30 06:38:06 2009     TI = 9.55783280510E-01
Sat May 30 06:38:08 2009     TI = 9.57781289960E-01

I'd expect some invalid behavior as the edges come into coincidence with
each other, but I wouldn't expect that behavior to show up at time scales in
the milliseconds, since the 5370's minimum time-interval spec is 10
nanoseconds.  This happens in both +TI and +/-TI modes.  Maybe I have a
calibration problem, or maybe I just need to re-familiarize myself with the
5370's interpolator mechanism... but either way, it seems that there are
going to be problems with any picket-fence implementation if the edges are
allowed to approach coincidence.  Whether this happens at margins of 10
nanoseconds or 100 milliseconds, it will hose any attempt at continuous data
collection.

One workaround would be to synthesize the missing values by lerping between
any reports received at two-second intervals... but if I go down that road,
I might as well interpolate between conventional frequency measurements to
simulate a zero-dead-time counter.

So if interpolation between skipped 1-second periods isn't acceptable, the
5370B ADEV program will need to report an error and terminate the
measurement if the time interval readings ever approach the -100 to +100
millisecond zone.  Is that a showstopper for anyone, other than users who
aren't able to tweak the phase of either of their 1-pps sources?

-- john, KE5FX




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 30 14:42:31 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 14:42:31 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Picket fence ADEV measurement on 5370 counters
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 May 2009 07:32:46 MST."
	<PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJCEGJCBAC.jmiles@pop.net> 
Message-ID: <10924.1243694551@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJCEGJCBAC.jmiles at pop.net>, "John Miles" writes:

>2) Something peculiar that my 5370B does: when the A-B time interval is
>about 60 milliseconds either side of coincidence, the counter fails to
>report a measurement at every other second.  E.g.:

I have done picket-fencing for years on my 5370B and never seen this
problem.

I usually use a 1Hz signal as start and a 10MHz from my house reference
as the stop.

I clock the HP5370B from a third source (usually the internal OCXO)
to avoid synchronicity.

I will caution you, that the IEEE488 implementation on the 5370B
is one of the more interesting I have encountered.

You can easily loose measurements, like what you see, by not being
ready when the counter is.

You should put the counter in talk mode, and have the computer continuously
in read mode to prevent this.

Also, you should timestamp the measurements in the computer with
fractional second granularity, there is a big difference between

	12:34:49
	12:34:50
	12:34:52
	12:34:53
	12:34:54

and
	12:34:49.985...
	12:34:50.995...
	12:34:52.005...
	12:34:53.015...
	12:34:54.025...

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From jmiles at pop.net  Sat May 30 15:09:30 2009
From: jmiles at pop.net (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:09:30 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Picket fence ADEV measurement on 5370 counters
In-Reply-To: <10924.1243694551@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJCEGOCBAC.jmiles@pop.net>


> I have done picket-fencing for years on my 5370B and never seen this
> problem.
>
> I usually use a 1Hz signal as start and a 10MHz from my house reference
> as the stop.

That seems to work OK on this counter, now that you mention it, except that
I see wraparound from 105 ns to 6 ns rather than the expected waffling
between 100.xx ns and 0.xx ns.

I've been assuming that people will use two 1-pps sources, as in the paper.
Can you try that (easily) to see if the same thing happens on yours within a
few milliseconds of coincidence?

> I clock the HP5370B from a third source (usually the internal OCXO)
> to avoid synchronicity.
>
> I will caution you, that the IEEE488 implementation on the 5370B
> is one of the more interesting I have encountered.
>
> You can easily loose measurements, like what you see, by not being
> ready when the counter is.

This isn't a GPIB issue; it happens in local-control mode as well.  The
counter arms itself every second but the display only changes every other
second.

> You should put the counter in talk mode, and have the computer
> continuously
> in read mode to prevent this.
>
> Also, you should timestamp the measurements in the computer with
> fractional second granularity

Sure.  That wasn't from the ADEV program, it's just a dump from an existing
5370b.cpp console app that illustrates the problem. I'm pretty sure at this
point that there's something weird going on with the counter itself.  Would
be curious to know if it's true of other 5370s when feeding both A and B
from 1-pps sources.

-- john, KE5FX





From jflan at tampabay.rr.com  Sat May 30 16:50:57 2009
From: jflan at tampabay.rr.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:50:57 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A206F63.5000904@xtra.co.nz>
References: <4A206F63.5000904@xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <4A2163F1.1040403@tampabay.rr.com>

Yes.. I ran across these references also.  Thanks


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Sat May 30 17:02:56 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 10:02:56 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
References: <PKEGJHPHLLBACEOICCBJGEEKBFAC.jmiles@pop.net>
Message-ID: <7487A8E5980845359B6047D0E84C6D53@pc52>

> I'm not sure it's possible to make continuous stability measurements (Allan
> deviation, etc.) directly with a 5370 since they don't support
> running/overlapped measurements between readings.

John,

It depends on what you mean by "readings". Or on what the
two sources are:
1) are you comparing two relatively stable 1pps sources, or
2) two oscillators running at completely different frequencies?

If (1), then any time interval counter will work for you. There
is no issue of "dead time" or "continuous" measurement. You
can calculate ADEV directly from the raw output of the 5370,
because it is giving you a periodic series of time interval (aka
phase difference) measurements.

/tvb




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 30 17:20:58 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 17:20:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 May 2009 10:02:56 MST."
	<7487A8E5980845359B6047D0E84C6D53@pc52> 
Message-ID: <11403.1243704058@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <7487A8E5980845359B6047D0E84C6D53 at pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:

>1) are you comparing two relatively stable 1pps sources, or
>
>If (1), then any time interval counter will work for you. There
>is no issue of "dead time" or "continuous" measurement. You
>can calculate ADEV directly from the raw output of the 5370,
>because it is giving you a periodic series of time interval (aka
>phase difference) measurements.

... as long as you remember to use TI+/- mode.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Sat May 30 19:44:25 2009
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:44:25 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
References: <11403.1243704058@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <81FA4FD1186B4407BE773C83ADF59F0E@pc52>

>>1) are you comparing two relatively stable 1pps sources, or
>>
>>If (1), then any time interval counter will work for you. There
>>is no issue of "dead time" or "continuous" measurement. You
>>can calculate ADEV directly from the raw output of the 5370,
>>because it is giving you a periodic series of time interval (aka
>>phase difference) measurements.
> 
> ... as long as you remember to use TI+/- mode.

For stuff like this I use plain old TI mode and just set the
UUT 1pps to lag the reference 1pps by a fraction of a
second, or maybe even just a couple of microseconds.

That way you get a small positive time interval reading
every second.

/tvb



From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat May 30 19:55:15 2009
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 19:55:15 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sat, 30 May 2009 12:44:25 MST."
	<81FA4FD1186B4407BE773C83ADF59F0E@pc52> 
Message-ID: <11917.1243713315@critter.freebsd.dk>

In message <81FA4FD1186B4407BE773C83ADF59F0E at pc52>, "Tom Van Baak" writes:

>> ... as long as you remember to use TI+/- mode.
>
>For stuff like this I use plain old TI mode and just set the
>UUT 1pps to lag the reference 1pps by a fraction of a
>second, or maybe even just a couple of microseconds.
>
>That way you get a small positive time interval reading
>every second.

Right, but with NTP servers that's not really an option.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From jra at febo.com  Sat May 30 20:27:27 2009
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 16:27:27 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] 5070B once more....
In-Reply-To: <81FA4FD1186B4407BE773C83ADF59F0E@pc52>
References: <11403.1243704058@critter.freebsd.dk>
	<81FA4FD1186B4407BE773C83ADF59F0E@pc52>
Message-ID: <4A2196AF.30100@febo.com>

Tom Van Baak said the following on 05/30/2009 03:44 PM:

>> ... as long as you remember to use TI+/- mode.
> 
> For stuff like this I use plain old TI mode and just set the
> UUT 1pps to lag the reference 1pps by a fraction of a
> second, or maybe even just a couple of microseconds.
> 
> That way you get a small positive time interval reading
> every second.

For what it's worth, I evolved a system where one of my GPS units and 
one of my Z3801A run as close to UTC(GPS) as I can get, taking into 
account cable delays, etc.

I run another Z3801A at about 500uS early relative to GPS.  Then, I use 
that 3801A and an HP 5359A time synthesizer (which can generate delays 
of up to 180ms) as the reference when I sync the dividers in the clocks 
that I am monitoring.

I set up a hierarchy -- with the nominally highest drift rate clock set 
maybe 250uS early, the next unit 150uS early, and the final unit 50uS 
early.  Now, I can compare #1 against #2, #2 against #3, and any of them 
against GPS using positive TI.  (This assumes the convention that the 
DUT goes on the START input, and the reference on the STOP input.)  I 
can usually take data this way for quite a while before any of the units 
cross over.

John


From jflan at tampabay.rr.com  Sun May 31 13:11:35 2009
From: jflan at tampabay.rr.com (Jim Flanagan)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 09:11:35 -0400
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
Message-ID: <4A228207.8010204@tampabay.rr.com>

Jimmy -
I found out the answer the question that I was asking you in
my previous email.

A fellow who is well versed in the HP oscillators (10544 and
10811) let me know that the 10544 oscillators used BOTH the
AT crystals and the BT cut crystals.  This is why I was
seeing what I was seeing.  Therefore I do need to tweak
the temperature for a freq MAX.

You may want to amend your website to point out that the
HP10544A used BT cut crystals at some point.  All of the web
references that I ran across pointed to the AT crystal
as the only cut used during the lifespan of this oscillator.
Take care-
Jim
-----------------------------------------------------


Hi..
I need help understanding a few things in regards to my
10544A oscillator.
I was given an osc about 5 years ago that did not have the
oven controller.  The owner at that time had built his own
version which did not work well.  I completely removed
everything he had done and duplicated the original oven
using the osc schematics that are available.  At that point
the osc went on the shelf until a couple of weeks ago.  I
decided to go ahead and calibrate the oven temperature in
order to select the correct resistor to set the temp at the
turning point.
Here is my confusion:
I understand that the 10544 oscillators used AT cut
crystals, which means that after warmup, I need to tweak the
temp for a freq MIN.  Whereas, for an SC cut xtal osc we
would be looking for a freq MAX.  For both xtal cuts the
turning point is typically set for somewhere in the 75 - 85
C range.  I see where my 10544 osc is sitting about 1.5KHz
LOW at room temp and then increases in freq at warmup (OVEN
temp rising).  I thought that at room temp the freq (for AT
osc) would be HIGH and decrease in freq as the oven warms.
After a full warmup, I would then adjust the temp slowly,
watching the freq for a min, at which time, as the oven is
made hotter, the freq would then start in the opposite
direction(positive).
In my mind, my osc seems to act as though it is using an SC
cut crystal...
Is my thinking all wrong here?
I?ve been studying he classic df/f vs Temp curves and my osc
appears to be opposite of the curves, assuming my osc does
use an AT xtal.
I would appreciate someone setting me straight in regards to
this..
Thanks
Jim
jflan at tampabay.rr.com


From mjpc48 at yahoo.com  Sun May 31 14:42:49 2009
From: mjpc48 at yahoo.com (michael castellano)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 07:42:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 9200 etal
Message-ID: <825632.50603.qm@web55301.mail.re4.yahoo.com>


Hi folks:

Bear with me... a newbie to this list.  

1)I am looking for a manual for the Datum 9200 time code translator, can't seem to locate one on mysearches. Can anyone help with a copy?

2) this is an old one:  like most of us, I have a Truetime 486DC that is now a pretty paperweight (In fact I have 3 here). Has ANYONE figured out how to do SOMETHING with it? Maybe a T/C translator, a stand alone clock (not so accurate, I know) or how making it into a remote readout?  

Thanks for the info, and your patience!
73, Mike KM1R


      


From GandalfG8 at aol.com  Sun May 31 15:29:23 2009
From: GandalfG8 at aol.com (GandalfG8 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 11:29:23 EDT
Subject: [time-nuts] Efratom FRS 10mhz rubidium frequency oscillator+ board
Message-ID: <c8f.46bc511a.3753fc53@aol.com>

Bob, Fluke.1, is selling these on Ebay, for  example item #  290313671907, 
and supplies the FRS module itself with an interface  board containing the 
FRS connector, plus another PCB containing a  15MHz oscillator and assorted 
other parts that the FRS interface board plugs  into.
 
Connecting up the FRS itself via the 10 way header on the  interface board 
is simple enough, most connections are marked and  others easily traced, but 
there's no information available regarding the  other PCB.
 
Does anyone have any information regarding the  purpose of this board 
and/or connection details for the fitted 25 way D  type and TNC connectors?
Any information on  the functions of the various jumper pins would also be  
appreciated.
 
regards
 
Nigel
GM8PZR

From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Sun May 31 17:13:24 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 11:13:24 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] What type of Crystal?
Message-ID: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>

   The recent discussion regarding the type of crystal in the HP 10544A
   brought this question to mind.  We're always coming across unknown
   oscillators.  Usually we can figure out the pinouts and voltages.  Then
   we can measure stability, aging, etc.  But are there any tricks to
   figure out what type of crystal is in the oscillator?  How can you
   detect the differences between AT, BT, SC, etc?
   I think that AT crystals have a broader tuning range than SC and that
   when warming up AT crystals tend to overshoot the final frequency and
   fall back.  Are these generalizations correct?  Are there other tricks
   to help differentiate the crystal types?
   Ed

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun May 31 18:53:57 2009
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:53:57 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] What type of Crystal?
In-Reply-To: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>
References: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <4A22D245.7010407@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Ed Palmer skrev:
>    The recent discussion regarding the type of crystal in the HP 10544A
>    brought this question to mind.  We're always coming across unknown
>    oscillators.  Usually we can figure out the pinouts and voltages.  Then
>    we can measure stability, aging, etc.  But are there any tricks to
>    figure out what type of crystal is in the oscillator?  How can you
>    detect the differences between AT, BT, SC, etc?

One thing which may be a hint is to look at what frequency they have 
cold, the detuning they have at room temperature is quite a good hint. 
This works best for OCXOs, since TCXOs at these frequencies usually is 
AT cut.

>    I think that AT crystals have a broader tuning range than SC and that
>    when warming up AT crystals tend to overshoot the final frequency and
>    fall back.  Are these generalizations correct?  Are there other tricks
>    to help differentiate the crystal types?

The overshot by itself may not be a good indicator. An SC with wrong 
temperature may exhibit overshot as well.

SC cut 10 MHz seems to be about 200 Hz low at room temperature. Don't 
recall the number for AT cut, but I think I saw something like 1 kHz or 
so recently. Need to test to be sure.

Cheers,
Magnus


From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Sun May 31 20:20:34 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:20:34 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] What type of Crystal?
In-Reply-To: <4A22D245.7010407@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>
	<4A22D245.7010407@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <4A22E692.1000609@sasktel.net>

   Magnus Danielson wrote:

     Ed Palmer skrev:

        The recent discussion regarding the type of crystal in the HP
     10544A
        brought this question to mind.  We're always coming across
     unknown
        oscillators.  Usually we can figure out the pinouts and
     voltages.  Then
        we can measure stability, aging, etc.  But are there any tricks
     to
        figure out what type of crystal is in the oscillator?  How can
     you
        detect the differences between AT, BT, SC, etc?

     One thing which may be a hint is to look at what frequency they have
     cold, the detuning they have at room temperature is quite a good
     hint. This works best for OCXOs, since TCXOs at these frequencies
     usually is AT cut.

   Yes, I should have specified that I was talking about OCXOs.  Since a
   TCXOs purpose is to compensate for temperature changes, the concept of
   'warmup' is a bit of an oxymoron.

        I think that AT crystals have a broader tuning range than SC and
     that
        when warming up AT crystals tend to overshoot the final frequency
     and
        fall back.  Are these generalizations correct?  Are there other
     tricks
        to help differentiate the crystal types?

     The overshot by itself may not be a good indicator. An SC with wrong
     temperature may exhibit overshot as well.

   A defective oven controller could certainly confuse any attempt to
   characterize an oscillator.  Let's assume that - as far as we can tell
   - the oscillator is working properly.

     SC cut 10 MHz seems to be about 200 Hz low at room temperature.
     Don't recall the number for AT cut, but I think I saw something like
     1 kHz or so recently. Need to test to be sure.

   I happened to record the startup performance of an HP 10544A.  It
   started out ~1100 Hz low.  I was initially worried that it was
   defective, but it was fine once it warmed up.  It also appeared that
   the amount of frequency overshoot was dependent on the oven voltage.  I
   want to investigate that more on various oscillators.
   Ed

From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Sun May 31 20:28:42 2009
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 14:28:42 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] What type of Crystal?
Message-ID: <4A22E87A.8080605@sasktel.net>

My apologies to the list for the poor formatting on my previous 
message.  I'm having trouble getting Thunderbird to send a message with 
formatting that the server will accept.  Let's see what it makes of this.

Magnus Danielson wrote:
> Ed Palmer skrev:
>>    The recent discussion regarding the type of crystal in the HP 10544A
>>    brought this question to mind.  We're always coming across unknown
>>    oscillators.  Usually we can figure out the pinouts and voltages.  
>> Then
>>    we can measure stability, aging, etc.  But are there any tricks to
>>    figure out what type of crystal is in the oscillator?  How can you
>>    detect the differences between AT, BT, SC, etc?
>
> One thing which may be a hint is to look at what frequency they have 
> cold, the detuning they have at room temperature is quite a good hint. 
> This works best for OCXOs, since TCXOs at these frequencies usually is 
> AT cut.
Yes, I should have specified that I was talking about OCXOs.  Since a 
TCXOs purpose is to compensate for temperature changes, the concept of 
'warmup' is a bit of an oxymoron.

>>    I think that AT crystals have a broader tuning range than SC and that
>>    when warming up AT crystals tend to overshoot the final frequency and
>>    fall back.  Are these generalizations correct?  Are there other 
>> tricks
>>    to help differentiate the crystal types?
>
> The overshot by itself may not be a good indicator. An SC with wrong 
> temperature may exhibit overshot as well.
A defective oven controller could certainly confuse any attempt to 
characterize an oscillator.  Let's assume that - as far as we can tell - 
the oscillator is working properly.
> SC cut 10 MHz seems to be about 200 Hz low at room temperature. Don't 
> recall the number for AT cut, but I think I saw something like 1 kHz 
> or so recently. Need to test to be sure.
I happened to record the startup performance of an HP 10544A.  It 
started out ~1100 Hz low.  I was initially worried that it was 
defective, but it was fine once it warmed up.  It also appeared that the 
amount of frequency overshoot was dependent on the oven voltage.  I want 
to investigate that more on various oscillators.

Ed



From vk4sz at hotmail.com  Sun May 31 21:10:33 2009
From: vk4sz at hotmail.com (Stuart Williams)
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 07:10:33 +1000
Subject: [time-nuts] Z3815a
Message-ID: <BAY142-W29EA2889B7E75ED17506C0EF4F0@phx.gbl>


I recently aquired one of these units Z3815a and am searching for any software and/or manual that must be avaliable somewhere. Stu
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From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sun May 31 21:50:46 2009
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:50:46 +1200
Subject: [time-nuts] HP10544A Confusion
In-Reply-To: <4A228207.8010204@tampabay.rr.com>
References: <4A228207.8010204@tampabay.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4A22FBB6.50000@xtra.co.nz>

There was a design change between the issue of the 1972 and 1975 datasheets.
The 1975 and later datasheets state that the oscillaor circuit was
modified from the earlier version.

The latter oscillators had a 15dB lower phase noise floor.
The oscillator supply voltage specs also changed as did the oven voltage
specs.
It is likely that the later models used a BT crystal whereas the earlier
ones used an AT crystal.

Bruce

Jim Flanagan wrote:
> Jimmy -
> I found out the answer the question that I was asking you in
> my previous email.
>
> A fellow who is well versed in the HP oscillators (10544 and
> 10811) let me know that the 10544 oscillators used BOTH the
> AT crystals and the BT cut crystals.  This is why I was
> seeing what I was seeing.  Therefore I do need to tweak
> the temperature for a freq MAX.
>
> You may want to amend your website to point out that the
> HP10544A used BT cut crystals at some point.  All of the web
> references that I ran across pointed to the AT crystal
> as the only cut used during the lifespan of this oscillator.
> Take care-
> Jim
> -----------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Hi..
> I need help understanding a few things in regards to my
> 10544A oscillator.
> I was given an osc about 5 years ago that did not have the
> oven controller.  The owner at that time had built his own
> version which did not work well.  I completely removed
> everything he had done and duplicated the original oven
> using the osc schematics that are available.  At that point
> the osc went on the shelf until a couple of weeks ago.  I
> decided to go ahead and calibrate the oven temperature in
> order to select the correct resistor to set the temp at the
> turning point.
> Here is my confusion:
> I understand that the 10544 oscillators used AT cut
> crystals, which means that after warmup, I need to tweak the
> temp for a freq MIN.  Whereas, for an SC cut xtal osc we
> would be looking for a freq MAX.  For both xtal cuts the
> turning point is typically set for somewhere in the 75 - 85
> C range.  I see where my 10544 osc is sitting about 1.5KHz
> LOW at room temp and then increases in freq at warmup (OVEN
> temp rising).  I thought that at room temp the freq (for AT
> osc) would be HIGH and decrease in freq as the oven warms.
> After a full warmup, I would then adjust the temp slowly,
> watching the freq for a min, at which time, as the oven is
> made hotter, the freq would then start in the opposite
> direction(positive).
> In my mind, my osc seems to act as though it is using an SC
> cut crystal...
> Is my thinking all wrong here?
> I?ve been studying he classic df/f vs Temp curves and my osc
> appears to be opposite of the curves, assuming my osc does
> use an AT xtal.
> I would appreciate someone setting me straight in regards to
> this..
> Thanks
> Jim
> jflan at tampabay.rr.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
>   



From Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de  Sun May 31 23:32:58 2009
From: Arnold.Tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:32:58 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] improved version of Ulrich's EZGPIB with multi run
	capability
Message-ID: <mailman.22.1243812804.2444.time-nuts@febo.com>

Hello all  the Time Nuts,

I just tried the newest version of Ulrich's EZGPIB, it was worth to 
look for it, I am happy.

I can finally run my different models of Prologix GPIB I/F Modules 
for Ethernet and USB all together, simultaneously ! 
(Not to forget the RS232 I/F of the 53131(2)A counter etc..)

EZGPIB can now either be started several times from the same 
installation folder (only one program name and one folder)
or 
several times with different names installed in different folders
and then be run simultaneously (one time per installed EZGPIB), 
(The installation is practically just to copy the unzipped files into a 
empty folder...).

What happens if I try a mix both possibilities? I don't know ;-).
But now I can run a mix of instruments via different interfaces for
more complex measurement setups. 

Because the program does not look twice for the same interface,
(internally blocked)
it does seem to be impossible to create a interface crash. 

One can enable/disable the type of interfaces to be looked for 
in the EZGPIB.INI file.

So many thanks to Ulrich who finally managed to find the way 
to solve this problem (for what I was long time wating for ;-)  )!

Perhaps others will enjoy as well to work with as I really do now, 
regards

Arnold





From BNeubig at t-online.de  Sun May 31 19:44:46 2009
From: BNeubig at t-online.de (Bernd T-Online)
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:44:46 +0200
Subject: [time-nuts] What type of Crystal?
In-Reply-To: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>
References: <4A22BAB4.8030005@sasktel.net>
Message-ID: <4A22DE2E.1030104@t-online.de>

For an OCXO you can determine whether it is an AT, BT or SC cut crystal 
by looking at the frequency difference between warm-up and after.

Jim wrote earlier, that his "10544 osc is sitting about 1.5KHz
LOW at room temp and then increases in freq at warmup (OVEN
temp rising)". 1.5 kHz = 150 ppm @ 10 MHz.
1. A BT cut crystal has a second order tempco of approx. -4*10^-8 per 
K^2 with reference to the turn-over temperature. Assuming an oven 
temperature of around 85?C, makes a temp difference to room temp of abt. 
60K:  (60K)^2*(0.04ppm/K^2) = 144 ppm = 1.44 kHz. This matches closely 
to Jims measurement.
2. An AT cut crystal has a frequency vs. temperature response described 
by a 3rd order parabola with its symmetry point around 25?C~35?C. 
Without going into the math in detail: A cut angle with a UTP of 85?C 
has an offset at 85?C compared to 25?C of about -45 ppm. This is much 
less than Jim's observation, and the direction of the frequeency change 
is opposite to the observed one.
3. An SC-cut crystal also has a frequency vs. temperature response 
described by a 3rd order parabola with an inflection (symmetry) 
temperature of around 95?C. But the SC-cut f(T) response has a much 
flatter curvature than an AT-cut (see the HP magazine article cited 
earlier). An OCXO with an SC-cut crytal operating at 85?C shows about 
-18ppm offset at room temperature compared to the frequency at assumed 
TOP of 85?C. This is a much smaller amount than Jim's measurement.

Therefore it is easy to conclude, that Jim's 10544 uses a BT-cut crystal.

Best regards

Bernd Neubig
DK1AG
__________________
AXTAL GmbH & Co. KG
www.axtal.com





Ed Palmer schrieb:
>    The recent discussion regarding the type of crystal in the HP 10544A
>    brought this question to mind.  We're always coming across unknown
>    oscillators.  Usually we can figure out the pinouts and voltages.  Then
>    we can measure stability, aging, etc.  But are there any tricks to
>    figure out what type of crystal is in the oscillator?  How can you
>    detect the differences between AT, BT, SC, etc?
>    I think that AT crystals have a broader tuning range than SC and that
>    when warming up AT crystals tend to overshoot the final frequency and
>    fall back.  Are these generalizations correct?  Are there other tricks
>    to help differentiate the crystal types?
>    Ed
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>