[time-nuts] Advice on 10 MHz isolation/distribution / PhaseNoise of 74AC gates
lists at rtty.us
Fri Feb 26 12:21:31 UTC 2010
That plot is very similar to what I have seen on AC gates.
The usual mumble words apply - that was > 15 years ago and semiconductor processes have changed a bit since then.
On Feb 26, 2010, at 5:54 AM, John Miles wrote:
> Hi, Garry --
>> I knew from other people's measurements that 74AC was capable of better
>> than -160dBc/Hz when used to make a phase detector at 10MHz, but I
>> wanted to do a quick feasibility check on a divider for an application a
>> couple of years ago.
>> The 74AC163 was powered from a linear bench supply via a long (many
>> seconds) RC time constant plus local decoupling. I adjusted the supply
>> to give 5V at the IC when it was operating.
>> The 100MHz OCXO, which gave 18dBm into 50 ohm, was AC-coupled into the
>> clock input, which was biased to half the supply voltage. The counter
>> was left dividing by 16, as its propagation delay and set-up times are
>> too long to programme it to divide by 10 with 100MHz clock rate. The
>> output was AC-coupled directly to the E5052B input, without any
>> filtering. I had to use the Qc output as the SSA doesn't work below
>> The attached plot shows the 12.5MHz phase noise plus that of the 100MHz
>> OCXO. The divider phase noise tracks 18dB below the OCXO at low offsets
>> as expected, before its flicker noise and eventual noise floor
>> predominate. I was primarily interested in seeing what the flicker noise
>> was like, but I was surprised when I saw how low the floor was!
>> The E5052B does the necessary calibration automatically before doing a
>> measurement - from my experience with the instrument I have no reason to
>> doubt the validity of the result. (The indicated 100MHz phase noise in
>> the ~1-50kHz region is actually limited by the E5052B, owing to my
>> setting only 100 correlations. However it shows it low enough to
>> indicate that the CMOS noise dominates over that range.)
>> I realise that a divider is very different from a simple inverter, but I
>> think this gives an useful indication of what AC logic is capable of.
> Some interesting results, all right. The 74AC parts do seem to be quite
> decent in the PN department. To try to corroborate your observations I ran
> some residual PN tests on a 74AC04 inverter using a different measurement
> technique (splitter+quadrature delay line): see http://www.ke5fx.com/ac.htm
> While I didn't achieve anything like the broadband floor you saw, I did find
> that the close-in noise was quite a bit better than your E5052B plot showed.
> It doesn't seem correct to blame your 1/f^3 slope below 1 kHz on CMOS
> process noise, as it doesn't show up in a true residual test. That is more
> likely to be your OCXO's PN profile, improved 18 dB by 20*log(N). It looks
> virtually identical to a couple of Wenzel parts I measured awhile back
> I agree that an edge conditioner and a clean Vcc supply could wring some
> serious performance out of these chips. The power supply might account for
> the broadband-floor deficit relative to your test setup; I'm not really sure
> what to expect there. I made some PSU noise measurements awhile back but
> the methodology was pretty bad and I don't really trust my results. Will
> try to do some more in-depth tests later, to see what's really possible.
> -- john, KE5FX
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