[time-nuts] Home Brew H Maser

Mark2 ksa50amp at yahoo.com
Wed Sep 1 03:01:50 UTC 2010


When you guys figure it out count me in. I'm betting 25k minimum to build it. Lots of custom stuff needed in there!

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2010, at 5:49 PM, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: homebrew H maser (Don Latham)
>   2. Re: homebrew H maser (Don Latham)
>   3. homebrew maser (Mark Sims)
>   4. Re: homebrew maser (Bruce Griffiths)
>   5. Re: homebrew H maser (Chuck Harris)
>   6. Maser manual (Corby Dawson)
>   7. Re: homebrew maser (John Miles)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:38:20 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Don Latham" <djl at montana.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
> To: "Francis Grosz" <fgrosz at otiengineering.com>,    "Discussion of
>    precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID:
>    <0c530181817ecfe360062a386f40c231.squirrel at webmail.montana.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> gee, i used to read that book over and over. the projects have two or more
> wires leading off page "to power supply", which i never had.
> now that i have a lot of power supplies, my projects have "wires" leading 
> "to network analyzer"... about out of reach now as all those power
> supplies then. whine whine. i guess you can't win :-)
> don
> 
> Francis Grosz
>> I think the book referred to is The Scientific American Book
>> of Projects for the Amateur Scientist by C. L. Stong (no "r' in Stong)
>> I too used to just read it - great book.  It's a collection of some of
>> "The
>> Amateur Scientist" columns by Stong from Scientific American
>> magazine.  Unfortunately it's out of print and used copies can be a
>> bit pricey or hard to find.  There is a great deal available, however - a
>> complete collection of all of "The Amateur Scientist" columns ever
>> published on a CD for $27.  If anyone is interested, the link is
>> 
>> http://www.brightscience.com/
>> 
>>                Francis
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------
>> Original Message
>>> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:38 +0200
>>> From: Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch>
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
>>> To: jfor at quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>> Message-ID: <20100831180638.16e4c656.attila at kinali.ch>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT)
>>> "J. Forster" <jfor at quik.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I used to read Strong's book as bedtime reading.
>>> 
>>> And which book would that be, for those who have not read it?
>>> 
>>> Attila Kinali
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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> 
> 
> -- 
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
> as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> 
> 
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 13:39:48 -0600 (MDT)
> From: "Don Latham" <djl at montana.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
> To: jfor at quik.com, "Discussion of precise time and frequency
>    measurement"    <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID:
>    <d95440a9433dc7fc5ec891d61f572ea6.squirrel at webmail.montana.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> 
> read that one too! as an undergrad (and grad) physics student.
> don
> 
> J. Forster
>> Nope. "Proceedures in Experimental Physics". A different Strong.
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> ================
>> 
>> 
>>> I think the book referred to is The Scientific American Book
>>> of Projects for the Amateur Scientist by C. L. Stong (no "r' in Stong)
>>> I too used to just read it - great book.  It's a collection of some of
>>> "The
>>> Amateur Scientist" columns by Stong from Scientific American
>>> magazine.  Unfortunately it's out of print and used copies can be a
>>> bit pricey or hard to find.  There is a great deal available, however -
>>> a
>>> complete collection of all of "The Amateur Scientist" columns ever
>>> published on a CD for $27.  If anyone is interested, the link is
>>> 
>>> http://www.brightscience.com/
>>> 
>>>                Francis
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message
>>>> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:38 +0200
>>>> From: Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch>
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
>>>> To: jfor at quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>>> measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>>> Message-ID: <20100831180638.16e4c656.attila at kinali.ch>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> "J. Forster" <jfor at quik.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I used to read Strong's book as bedtime reading.
>>>> 
>>>> And which book would that be, for those who have not read it?
>>>> 
>>>> Attila Kinali
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
> as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> 
> 
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 20:10:02 +0000
> From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] homebrew maser
> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <BLU125-W237B9A19CE403F18DD26FBCE8A0 at phx.gbl>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> 
> Same general idea, ?but an image intensifier plate would probably not work well. ?They are usually thinner and are cut at a bias so the electrons ricochet along its length. ?You might be able to mount one so that it cancels the bias angle.
> 
> They are made by stretching a bundle of hollow glass tubes that have been filled with solid glass rods of a different composition. ?The original bundle can be very large (like over a meter) and is shrunk down to like 100 fibers per millimeter. ?It is then sliced and polished. ?Often the slices (or the pulled bundles) are joined into a bigger plate. ? Then the inner solid glass is dissolved out with a strong alkali. The hollow tubes are coated with a photoelectric material.
> The image from the tube is inverted using a "twister"... ?a coherent fiber optic rod that has a 180 degree twist.
> 
> ---------------
> Do you know if the collimator is made from an uncoated microchannel plate?
> If so, an old, broken Gen II image intensifier might be a viable source.
> 
>                         
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2010 08:23:30 +1200
> From: Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew maser
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>    <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <4C7D64C2.9090802 at xtra.co.nz>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> PTFE wall storage bulb wall coatings haven't been used for some decades, 
> FEP (or the Russian fluoropolymer ) is better in that a smoother coat is 
> achievable see:
> http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA509340 
> <http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA509340>
> 
> A sual hexapole state selector is probably a little more effective than 
> the cruder method used in the Russian masers.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> Mark Sims wrote:
>> Same general idea,  but an image intensifier plate would probably not work well.  They are usually thinner and are cut at a bias so the electrons ricochet along its length.  You might be able to mount one so that it cancels the bias angle.
>> 
>> They are made by stretching a bundle of hollow glass tubes that have been filled with solid glass rods of a different composition.  The original bundle can be very large (like over a meter) and is shrunk down to like 100 fibers per millimeter.  It is then sliced and polished.  Often the slices (or the pulled bundles) are joined into a bigger plate.   Then the inner solid glass is dissolved out with a strong alkali. The hollow tubes are coated with a photoelectric material.
>> The image from the tube is inverted using a "twister"...  a coherent fiber optic rod that has a 180 degree twist.
>> 
>> ---------------
>> Do you know if the collimator is made from an uncoated microchannel plate?
>> If so, an old, broken Gen II image intensifier might be a viable source.
>> 
>>                         
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:44:09 -0400
> From: Chuck Harris <cfharris at erols.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
> To: jfor at quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>    measurement    <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <4C7D6999.6050200 at erols.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> The Scientific American guy is Stong.  The Procedures in Experimental
> Physics guy is Strong.
> 
> I have original copies of each, and they are fun bedside readers.
> 
> -Chuck Harris
> 
> J. Forster wrote:
>> Nope. "Proceedures in Experimental Physics". A different Strong.
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> ================
>> 
>> 
>>> I think the book referred to is The Scientific American Book
>>> of Projects for the Amateur Scientist by C. L. Stong (no "r' in Stong)
>>> I too used to just read it - great book.  It's a collection of some of
>>> "The
>>> Amateur Scientist" columns by Stong from Scientific American
>>> magazine.  Unfortunately it's out of print and used copies can be a
>>> bit pricey or hard to find.  There is a great deal available, however - a
>>> complete collection of all of "The Amateur Scientist" columns ever
>>> published on a CD for $27.  If anyone is interested, the link is
>>> 
>>> http://www.brightscience.com/
>>> 
>>>                 Francis
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------
>>> Original Message
>>>> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 18:06:38 +0200
>>>> From: Attila Kinali<attila at kinali.ch>
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew H maser
>>>> To: jfor at quik.com, Discussion of precise time and frequency
>>>> measurement<time-nuts at febo.com>
>>>> Message-ID:<20100831180638.16e4c656.attila at kinali.ch>
>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, 29 Aug 2010 10:11:47 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> "J. Forster"<jfor at quik.com>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> I used to read Strong's book as bedtime reading.
>>>> 
>>>> And which book would that be, for those who have not read it?
>>>> 
>>>> Attila Kinali
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 14:29:22 -0700
> From: Corby Dawson <cdelect at juno.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] Maser manual
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Message-ID: <20100831.142922.3096.1.cdelect at juno.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> The operation manual for the EFOS maser is on Tom Van Baaks website 
> 
> http://www.leapsecond.com/museum/efos/efos-1.pdf
> 
> Maintenance manual will follow later as I have to mail a CD to him with
> the 2nd manual.
> 
> Corby Dawson
> ____________________________________________________________
> 1 Tip for Losing Weight
> Cut down 2 lbs per week by using this 1 weird old tip
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4c7d7478f168ad9e53m04duc
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 31 Aug 2010 16:49:19 -0700
> From: "John Miles" <jmiles at pop.net>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew maser
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>    <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Message-ID: <HMEBKHFEACMNLMHIAFDNIEBODEAD.jmiles at pop.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii"
> 
> That's a great article.  It almost makes the job seem doable.
> 
> It is going to be expensive, though.  If someone can build a working maser
> for less than $10K in materials and bespoke fabrication services alone, I'll
> be impressed.  An obvious question is, what's the so-called "minimum viable
> product" that can actually produce a population inversion in a cavity and
> demonstrate maser action?  Do you need any magnetic shielding at all, beyond
> a couple of Helmholtz coils?  Maybe not.  Do you need to coat the bulb at
> all if you don't care about line width?  Maybe not.  How exotic does the
> collimator need to be if you don't care much about service life?  Probably
> not very.  You definitely don't need a multilayer vacuum system.  What
> corners can be cut to get a rough prototype running?
> 
> Control electronics is trivial, and not even worth thinking about until the
> physical details are nailed down.
> 
> Once you start talking about cutting corners just to get a maser up and
> running, though, there's another obvious question worth considering: what
> about starting with an ammonia maser?  This was the first molecular
> oscillator.  Experience optimizing the (numerous) operating parameters in an
> NH3 maser would no doubt be helpful in later work with an H maser.
> 
> Ammonia molecules have a dipole moment and can be state-selected
> electrostatically.  There is no need for either a dissociator or a storage
> bulb, just a basic electrostatic lens and cavity in a vacuum.  Townes's
> original 1954 paper makes no mention of magnetic shielding.  But at 24 GHz a
> high-Q cavity is small and manageable, so if you do have to enclose it in
> mu-metal it's not going to cost a fortune.
> 
> Further, with stabilities in the 1E-12 range, a 5065A-class rubidium
> standard or a well-optimized GPS clock can be used as a reference for
> tweaking and debugging an NH3 maser.  If you do manage to build a hydrogen
> maser, OTOH, you are going to need to build at least two of them to get any
> idea where your performance floor is.
> 
> Just one possible thought...
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
> 
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]On
>> Behalf Of Bruce Griffiths
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 1:23 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] homebrew maser
>> 
>> 
>> PTFE wall storage bulb wall coatings haven't been used for some decades,
>> FEP (or the Russian fluoropolymer ) is better in that a smoother coat is
>> achievable see:
>> http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&
>> AD=ADA509340
>> <http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
>> &AD=ADA509340>
>> 
>> A sual hexapole state selector is probably a little more effective than
>> the cruder method used in the Russian masers.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> Mark Sims wrote:
>>> Same general idea,  but an image intensifier plate would
>> probably not work well.  They are usually thinner and are cut at
>> a bias so the electrons ricochet along its length.  You might be
>> able to mount one so that it cancels the bias angle.
>>> 
>>> They are made by stretching a bundle of hollow glass tubes that
>> have been filled with solid glass rods of a different
>> composition.  The original bundle can be very large (like over a
>> meter) and is shrunk down to like 100 fibers per millimeter.  It
>> is then sliced and polished.  Often the slices (or the pulled
>> bundles) are joined into a bigger plate.   Then the inner solid
>> glass is dissolved out with a strong alkali. The hollow tubes are
>> coated with a photoelectric material.
>>> The image from the tube is inverted using a "twister"...  a
>> coherent fiber optic rod that has a 180 degree twist.
>>> 
>>> ---------------
>>> Do you know if the collimator is made from an uncoated
>> microchannel plate?
>>> If so, an old, broken Gen II image intensifier might be a viable source.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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