[time-nuts] Loran C sounds

[Bob Camp]

Hi

I know it's a chicken and egg thing, but Loran-C died for navigation a while back. The hardware simply isn't out there anymore. GPS could have died two weeks ago and Loran-C would have not helped the navigation people. They don't have the receivers in place. A backup that nobody is set up to listen to is not a backup.

Keeping Loran-C in the critical care ward forever would have not helped navigation. The only thing that would have helped was a significant upgrade to the system. You have to wonder if anybody would put the gear in place  after an upgrade. Even with cheap electronics, the antenna install on Loran drives up the cost. Production volume on the GPS electronics does will always make a low use system like Loran expensive.

The backup for most (but not all) navigation users is the mark one eyeball. Don't even joke about the modern world navigating with a sextant. I've handed mine to a number of people and gotten a blank look in return ....

The thing that will keep SA turned off is competition. If bad people have three systems to pick between, they will switch to the one that works for them. No advantage to SA in that case. On the other hand, if you turn on SA, lots of voters complain about it. It's a lot harder for them to switch.  

Personally, I'll miss Loran-C. It was a very useful thing to have. I have used Loran a lot, but never for navigation. Like it or not, Loran is a nav system not a timing system. Without upgrades, Loran is a second rate nav system. 

Are we very dependent on GPS - yup. That didn't change one bit when they turned Loran off. Ignore the navigation stuff completely. The world of timing is now based on GPS. That's been true for years. Trying to get a backup into those networks is a futile effort. A lot of us have tried and failed. The problem has not been ignored, it's been mentioned again and again. There's been an informed decision that GPS is "ok". I disagree with that, but the decision was not made in an information vacuum. Changing that decision and implementing the change would take decades, not weeks or months. You could build a GPS system from scratch in less time than it would take to finally put in backups at all those timing nodes. 

We live in a fragile world. There are a lot of systems we depend on. Take a look at how New York City gets it's water supply. That's at least as scary as GPS. The world is full of single point of failure issues ....

Bob

On Feb 12, 2010, at 6:07 AM, Sykes, Stephan wrote:

> What is going to happen if GPS has a problem, or if the US puts SA back
> on?  Now the only backup for navigation is a sextant.  
> 
> Steve KD2OM 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Bill Hawkins
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 00:04
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C sounds
> 
> 
> Two things:
> 
> 1. The Solar Dynamics Observatory launched this morning, on a mission to
> examine the fields and mass ejections that threaten satellites and
> power grids. They are delighted to be putting instruments in place
> after a prolonged quiet period so they can watch activity ramp up.
> 
> The people who shut down non-satellite methods won't be in office at
> peak activity.
> 
> 2. Its all about $$$$$$ because they are so easy to count. Decisions
> based
> on dollars don't require any technical background. People with empathy
> lose out to people who are focused on the dollars. (You folks with
> other currencies can substitute them for declining dollars. The
> principle
> is the same.) Should I automate or retain jobs? Let's see, which costs
> less
> per year? In dollars, that is, not human misery.
> 
> Albert J. Bernstein wrote "Dinosaur Brains: Dealing with All Those
> Impossible
> People at Work" to explain how the most primitive brain of the three in
> our
> skulls sometimes / often gets the upper hand. Fatally attracted to
> female
> fatty deposits? Blame your dino brain and try to rein it in. Trying to
> deal
> with somebody shouting at you? You're watching a dino brain take over.
> Don't
> try to explain, the dino can't hear you unless what you say sounds
> threatening.
> 
> Dealing with someone who is playing dominance games? Say hello to an
> ancient
> lizard and forget any attempt to reason with the person. Who plays
> dominance
> games? Almost any politician you care to name.
> 
> So, no, don't think anything good is gonna happen. There's a reason why
> engineers are familiar with not having resources to do it right the
> first
> time.
> 
> Darn, the soap box broke.
> 
> Bill Hawkins
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: paul swed
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 9:07 PM
> 
> Sure they might take a check for $36M or so.
> As they have said without the yanks, its broke. So they will shut down
> before Oct.
> Its all about $$$$$$
> 
> 
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