[time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53131A (not 53151A) trigger problems

Tue Aug 28 08:12:42 UTC 2012

www.*axtal*.com/data/publ/*aging*_e.pdf

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 2:32 AM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:

> Could you refresh me with the reference or email the paper? I'd like to
> give it a read.
> Don
>
> Azelio Boriani
> > My starting point is the paper by Neubig on the real vs. predicted
> > aging:
> > experimenting with the model and try to cut it around the Morion or the
> > Oscilloquartz OCXOs.
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 12:15 AM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> >
> >> There are ways of generating models, such as ARIMA, using past
> >> behavior
> >> and the models used to tweak filters and so on. The shifts would have
> >> to
> >> be accounted for as they occur, seems to me. Now the interesting
> >> possibility is that a shift does not alter the underlying model for a
> >> given crystal????
> >> Has to be tested.
> >> Don
> >>
> >> Azelio Boriani
> >> > So it can't be done... the possibility to discipline an OCXO taking
> >> the
> >> > action from a suitable model should help in speeding up the
> >> adjustments
> >> > and
> >> > avoiding the humps as seen in the Allan deviation plot.
> >> >
> >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 9:31 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Isn't crystal aging marked by random jumps? perhaps lattice
> >> >> rearrangement? Really hard if not impossible to model...
> >> >> Don
> >> >>
> >> >> Azelio Boriani
> >> >> > 30mV are -13dBm so maybe it is why the -20dBm is not a suitable
> >> >> level
> >> >> > for
> >> >> > that input. I have the 53132A and the 53181A so I can test (with
> >> the
> >> >> R&S
> >> >> > SML01). Is this problem new? Never tested before?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > About the OCXO aging: OK, I'm interested in the development of a
> >> >> model
> >> >> > that
> >> >> > can be general enough so that it can be "steered", adjusting its
> >> >> > parameters, during the OCXO life. The data (to adjust the
> >> >> parameters)
> >> >> > will
> >> >> > be gathered by the continuous monitoring with the GPS.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 7:01 PM, Bernd Neubig
> >> <bneubig at t-online.de>
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Hi Azelio,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sorry, the counters are 53131A, not 53151A. The A and B inputs
> >> are
> >> >> >> specified
> >> >> >> from DC to 225 MHz with a sensitivity of y20 mV (rms) up to 100
> >> >> MHz,
> >> >> >> <30 mV
> >> >> >> (rms) 100 ~ 200 MHz, and <50 mV (rms) 200 ~ 225 MHz.
> >> >> >> The problem can be at either input alone. The problem is only in
> >> >> the
> >> >> >> range
> >> >> >> between 100 MHz and <200 MHz, observed in automatic trigger
> >> mode.
> >> >> In
> >> >> >> manual
> >> >> >> trigger mode the counter does not trigger at all in that freq
> >> >> range.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> I cannot tell you an aging model for a particular OCXO, and I
> >> doubt
> >> >> if
> >> >> >> anyone can ;) Aging predictions can only be made on individual
> >> >> OCXO,
> >> >> >> unit
> >> >> >> by
> >> >> >> unit, and the prediction is only valid over a rather limited
> >> time.
> >> >> >> Therefore
> >> >> >> you must continuously monitor and update your prediction.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Best regards
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Bernd
> >> >> >> DK1AG
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> >> >> >> Von: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
> >> [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com]
> >> >> Im
> >> >> >> Auftrag von Azelio Boriani
> >> >> >> Gesendet: Freitag, 24. August 2012 17:28
> >> >> >> An: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >> >> >> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] HP/Agilet counter 53151A trigger
> >> problems
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> From the datasheet:
> >> >> >> A input 10Hz..125MHz min level 25mVrms (-19dBm) B input min
> >> 50MHz,
> >> >> >> -20dBm
> >> >> >> the problem is on A input only? Maybe 150MHz for the A input,
> >> being
> >> >> >> beyond
> >> >> >> the official specifications, requires more signal on one counter
> >> >> than
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> other. In the past they all were fine?
> >> >> >> I have read your paper on the correlation between the real and
> >> >> >> predicted
> >> >> >> aging of crystal oscillators. I'm trying to find a suitable
> >> model
> >> >> for
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> Morion MV201 OCXO or the Oscilloquartz 8663 to implement a
> >> Kalman
> >> >> >> filter.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 3:34 PM, Bernd Neubig
> >> <BNeubig at t-online.de>
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > Hi all,
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I have several HP/Agilent frequency counters 53151A (and
> >> 53152A)
> >> >> in
> >> >> >> my
> >> >> >> lab.
> >> >> >> > Several of them meanwhile show trigger problems.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I have tested the A and B channel between 5 MHz and 200 MHZ at
> >> >> three
> >> >> >> > input levels of -10 dBm, 0 dBm and +10 dBm.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Those with trigger problems show erroneous numbers at -10 dBm
> >> >> input
> >> >> >> > level rather selectively, i.e. mostly at 100 MHz, some also at
> >> >> 150
> >> >> >> > MHz, while the are o.k.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Has anyone on this list experienced similar defects and can
> >> give
> >> >> a
> >> >> >> > recommendation how to fix/repair them?
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Best regards
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Bernd
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > DK1AG
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > www.axtal.com
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> to
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> >> >> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >>
> >> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and
> >> argument
> >> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the
> >> mind."
> >> >> R. Bacon
> >> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> >> >> Ghost in the Shell
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> >> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
> >> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
> >> >> POB 134
> >> >> Huson, MT, 59846
> >> >> VOX 406-626-4304
> >> >> www.lightningforensics.com
> >> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> >> To unsubscribe, go to
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> >> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >> >>
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> >> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> >> R. Bacon
> >> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> >> Ghost in the Shell
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> >> Six Mile Systems LLP
> >> 17850 Six Mile Road
> >> POB 134
> >> Huson, MT, 59846
> >> VOX 406-626-4304
> >> www.lightningforensics.com
> >> www.sixmilesystems.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument
> are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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