[time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard, Datum

paul swed paulswedb at gmail.com
Thu Oct 3 22:23:20 EDT 2013


I did look at the manual here from twoway I think. And though no schematics
it has an awful lot of good information that would let you dive in
carefully. I have had far less info to get going on complicated systems
like my 5065 that I repaired totally in the blind. It was the loop filter
cap. At the time no information at all. I have schematics now.
Regards
Paul.


On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Bob Camp <lists at rtty.us> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Ok here's a minimum of what you would need to "rebuild" a Cs tube:
>
> 1) A way to open up the tube that could be re-sealed or a full (very
> custom) replacement outer shell
> 2) A way to scrub it clean of Cs at the molecular level (it's all over the
> inside of the tube)
> 3) A way to build a new Cs source and target
> 4) A way to load the Cs into the source (likely in a vacuum).
> 5) A way to mount the new source and target in the tube (also likely in a
> vacuum).
> 6) A way to line everything up by comparison to something better (like a
> Hydrogen Maser)
> 7) A way to pump it all down and bake it all out (probably for days)
> 8) A way to weld it shut without dirtying it up. Coldweld would be best,
> resistance weld might also work. Both require custom dies.
> 9) Then there's all the permits, processes, documentation, testing,
> evaluation, and other "overhead" that goes into any modern high tech
> manufacturing plant.
>
> Then of course there's the minor item of the research effort to figure out
> how to do all this stuff. There's no textbook to follow. There are a small
> number of people (maybe a few dozen) who really know all about this sort of
> manufacture.
>
> More or less you are looking at $3M to $5M worth of this and that to get
> started with the equipment. Who knows on the research. Yes, I know you
> *think* you can do it for less. That's what it will *really* cost before
> you know if you are close or not. I've done enough of these systems to see
> lots of rosy first pass predictions, and then to see what the outcome
> really was.
>
> There's maybe $2K worth of  raw "stuff" in a Cs tube. The rest of the
> money you pay when buying a new one goes to all the work involved. There's
> a lot of work (and very fancy tooling) involved. Even with all that fancy
> stuff they still make a number of duds …
>
> Bob
>
> On Oct 3, 2013, at 2:13 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Boy am staying clear of the rebuild discussion. Search time nuts the
> > details are explicitly explained and interesting. Has to do with
> > reactivity, vacuums, and shields.
> > Correct mix of the CS stuff. My pharmacy doesn't carry whats needed,
> > walmart either.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 1:07 PM, Tom Miller <tmiller at skylinenet.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi guys,
> >>
> >> I wonder if the beam current amp is working? Shouldn't I at least see
> some
> >> noise when I run the gain all the way up? I need to wait until I get the
> >> manual to see where to look and what to check. I do know which DAC is
> used
> >> for the beam gain setting but where to see if it works is not too clear.
> >>
> >> I know everyone says the tubes can't be rebuilt, but why?
> >>
> >> Tom
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "paul swed" <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
> >> time-nuts at febo.com>
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2013 11:18 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
> >> Datum
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Joe,
> >> I did not actually look at the numbers until your email. I did reformat
> and
> >> clean them up for long term retention.
> >> Right you are and will guess the ion pump e is a direct reading at
> 2.4..KV
> >> The Ion pump I is nice and low
> >> Beam is zero or noise or profoundly weak.
> >> All of the other voltages look reasonable.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 9:08 AM, J. L. Trantham <jltran at att.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> Suspicious for a dead tube.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: time-nuts-bounces at febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-bounces@**febo.com<
> time-nuts-bounces at febo.com>]
> >>> On
> >>> Behalf Of Tom Miller
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 9:54 PM
> >>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> Subject: [time-nuts] Fw: FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
> Datum
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Just to get this data on the list.
> >>>
> >>> Here are the measured voltages on U1:
> >>>
> >>> Pin     Fn                      Voltage         Limits
> >>> 9        Beam I                0.001            1.01 to 3.73
> >>> 18      Ion Pump E        2.436            1.72 to 3.01
> >>> 7        Ion Pump I            0.020            0 to 2.0
> >>> 19      Elec Multi E        2.060            0.84 to 3.01
> >>> 17      C-Field I              3.65              3.28 to 4.45   (front
> >>> panel
> >>> sw set at 500)
> >>> 16      Cs Oven T          1.379            1.27 to 1.55
> >>> 20      Xtal Oven Pwr    3.57              2.81 to 3.91
> >>> 3        180 MHz Lvl        2.784            0.1 to 4.8
> >>> 2        12.6 MHz Dig     4.84               4.0 to 5.0
> >>> 23      12.6 MHz Ana    1.34               0.35 to 4.28
> >>> 6         +5 Supply           2.427            2.35 to 2.68
> >>> 4         +18 V Supply     2.484            2.42 to 2.68
> >>> 22       - 18 V Supply     2.481            1.72 to 3.52
> >>> 21        Chassis T          3.045            2.62 to 3.44
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> It has been on for four days.
> >>>
> >>> When I compare the 10 MHz out to my GPSDO, the frequency matches up
> when
> >>> the
> >>> control (meter 4) passes 3.2 volts. There is no movement in the Beam
> >>> current
> >>> (meter 3) as control sweeps.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Tom
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>>  From: Tom Knox
> >>>  To: Tom Miller ; Time-Nuts
> >>>  Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 2:00 PM
> >>>  Subject: RE: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
> >>> Datum
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  If anyone has a service manual I am also very interested. Thanks
> >>>  Thomas Knox
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> From: tmiller at skylinenet.net
> >>>> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2013 13:22:45 -0400
> >>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard,
> >>> Datum
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello Corby,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for the help. Yes, could you copy me on the information for the
> >>> U1
> >>>> chip? I do not have anything other than the user manual from Brooke.
> >>> At
> >>> this
> >>>> time, anything will be a great help.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>> Tom
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>>> From: <cdelect at juno.com>
> >>>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 02, 2013 11:47 AM
> >>>> Subject: [time-nuts] FTS 4060 Cesium Time & Frequency Standard, Datum
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Tom,
> >>>>
> >>>> On the 4060 you can easily monitor the Ion pump voltage and current,
> >>> the
> >>>> electron multiplier voltage, and other important parameters by
> >>> measuring
> >>>> the voltages on the U1 chip on the uP board.
> >>>> This saves you fronm having to diconnect stuff to measure the HV and
> >>>> such.
> >>>> If you don't have a manual showing the pins of U1 I can post to pinout
> >>>> here on Time Nuts.
> >>>>
> >>>> Corby
> >>>>
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