[time-nuts] Ultra High Stability Time Base Options for 53132A
john at pcsupportsolutions.com
Mon Apr 13 21:59:36 EDT 2015
Hi folks - Just one note about ECL. It was intentionally designed for slow rise-time. That was a feature that improved signal integrity in the 70's when board designers had no clue. I am mostly referring to MECL 10K. MECL III had faster rise-times.
John K1AE, ECL designer at DEC in the early 70's. Co-designer of the KL10/DecSystem 2060. Dec's first signal integrity person and the first person to bring Berkeley Spice to DEC in 1974.
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Magnus Danielson
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 3:15 PM
To: Richard (Rick) Karlquist; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Cc: magnus at rubidium.se
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ultra High Stability Time Base Options for 53132A
On 04/13/2015 01:48 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist wrote:
> On 4/12/2015 2:22 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> The buffer transistors has not AC-bypass of the emitter resistance, so
>> that the DC current becomes large and thus contributes flicker noise.
>> The comparator at the bottom isn't doing a beutifull work of squaring
>> things up without contributing noise, considering the sine output of the
>> Was that it, Rick?
> The resolution of page 13 is poor, and it seems to be a bitmap instead
> of a vector file. The fuzzy thing in the lower right corner looks
> like it might be a comparator. I think this was the smoking gun.
I checked the component listing, which provided very good hints.
> There was a saying by H.L. Menken to the effect that for every
> complex problem, there is a simple, obvious, invalid solution.
Oh yes. Some people say that you should not overcomplex things. My
experience is that oversimplifying them can cause a long stretch of
complex problems and complex workarounds making the total solution more
expensive in development, customer relations and more complex than
starting with a more advanced solution, that actually attempts to
address the design issues. Ah well.
> Squaring up a 10811 with a comparator is a perfect example of this
> principle. Non-time-nuts always seem to gravitate to this design.
Oh, they defend their choice with that they use a schmitt-trigger.
> Of course you're right, any comparator will add jitter to a 10811.
> The faster they are, the more jitter they add.
Indeed. Hello Noise-bandwidth.
> I noticed that the standard 10 MHz oscillator is built with
> an ECL line receiver. Another example of Menken's saying.
> This is a TERRIBLE oscillator design, but one that would appeal
> to the non-initiated. I built one of these oscillators in 1976
> at the suggestion of my boss. After seeing how bad it was, I
> quietly designed it out and never used it again.
Go and check the HP5370A/B reference amplifier board. It has an ECL
circuit to detect the presence of 10 MHz. It does this by producing a 5
MHz 25% PWM signal... with ECL... with very good rise-time. ECL have
never been known for its speed and rise-time (irony might have been
used). So, it turns out that the board spewes out a wide spectrum of 5
MHz spikes. All this to drive a LED that goes green if there is a 10 MHz
to aid the fault analysis once you lift the lid. A bad design. Disabled
the detector by grounding a base on a transistor, and got a much more
quiet box. The Motorola ECL handbook warns about the rise-time issue,
it's a standard signal integrity and EMC issue.
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