[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Sun Aug 9 15:48:20 EDT 2015

100% 2nd the thanks to all.
On Aug 9, 2015 12:07 PM, "Bob Camp" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal
> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and
> disciplining to the 1PPS.
> >
> > The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things
> are looking very good.
> >
> > I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will
> post that here when I am done.
> >
> > Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
> project.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
> >> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
> >> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick
> different
> >> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in”
> with an
> >> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.
> >>
> >> That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon
> >> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms
> since then.
> >> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to
> call
> >> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS
> receivers.
> >> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you
> >> have a LOT of changes.
> >>
> >> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the
> REF-0, with
> >> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
> stability /
> >> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high
> sensitivity GPS to
> >> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.
> >>
> >> ============
> >>
> >> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.
> >>>
> >>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
> >>> receivers.
> >>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
> >>> use a new
> >>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
> >>> messages
> >>> required to do that.
> >>>
> >>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
> >>> ASCII
> >>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be
> edited
> >>> with
> >>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
> >>> after many
> >>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.
> >>>
> >>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
> >>> problem
> >>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
> >>> while
> >>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
> >>> two
> >>> more groups of satellite data.
> >>>
> >>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
> >>> Considering
> >>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to
> bill at iaxs.net
> >>> for
> >>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
> >>> make a
> >>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with
> a
> >>> 28 volt
> >>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is
> being
> >>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
> >>> stuff.
> >>>
> >>> Bill Hawkins
> >>> Bloomington, MN 55438
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> >>> Camp
> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
> >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
> >>> era
> >>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
> >>> The signal
> >>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
> >>> worth
> >>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does
> sound
> >>> reasonable.
> >>>
> >>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
> >>> ..
> >>>
> >>> ======
> >>>
> >>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
> >>> The KS
> >>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
> >>> directly
> >>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.
> >>>
> >>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
> >>> and there.
> >>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the
> Oncore
> >>> strings
> >>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about.
> >>>
> >>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox,
> >>> remember that
> >>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
> >>> fired relative to
> >>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the
> >>> time label wrong
> >>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical
> >>> evidence of
> >>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
> >>> harder to track down
> >>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Dan exactly my thinking.
> >>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock.
> >>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
> >>> there is
> >>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
> >>> oncore
> >>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats
> >>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all
> >>>> easily do a fixed string.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
> >>> and
> >>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code
> >>> can be
> >>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using
> >>> a ~$1
> >>>>> chip.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
> >>> still be
> >>>>> quite easy to do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
> >>> Jupiter-T
> >>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
> >>> nicely
> >>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
> >>> notes and
> >>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dan
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Looking forward to the notes.
> >>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
> >>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
> >>> after
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
> >>> the
> >>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
> >>> end
> >>>>> ones
> >>>>>> will do that stunt very easily.
> >>>>>> That would be pretty sweet.
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
> >>> take a
> >>>>>>> few days
> >>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> What you will need:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0
> >>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
> >>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
> >>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is
> >>> no
> >>>>> real
> >>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> More to follow.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bob,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second
> >>> REF-0
> >>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
> >>> to
> >>>>> figure
> >>>>>>> out what is needed.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
> >>> locked in
> >>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
> >>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
> >>> grabs
> >>>>>>> the data off of the string
> >>>>>>>>> as it comes by.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off
> >>> list.
> >>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
> >>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
> >>> lines"?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Edésio
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
> >>>>> discussions.
> >>>>>>> All of the work decoding
> >>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
> >>> list.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string
> >>> that
> >>>>>>> looks like the output
> >>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
> >>> manipulation
> >>>>>>> of the signal lines.
> >>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
> >>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without
> >>> GPS,
> >>>>>>> as a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
> >>>>>>> configure it?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 +
> >>> USD
> >>>>>>> 52.30
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
> >>> custom
> >>>>>>> taxes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>