[time-nuts] Spectrum Analyzer Specifications --> phase noise test set

Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz
Fri Mar 25 00:27:49 EDT 2016


http://www.ko4bb.com/getsimple/index.php?id=low-noise-high-reverse-isolation-low-distortion-rf-amplifier
Bruce



    On Friday, 25 March 2016 4:57 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra..co.nz> wrote:
 

 If 40-50dB reverse isolation is sufficient one can easily build suitable low gain (<10dB) amps with a single RF transistor (plus output transformer together with a low frequency transistor plus LED for bias stabilisation). Retrofitting a similar biasing scheme to the RF amps in some early HP PN measurement gear apparently does wonders for their PN at low offsets.
One could even use a square wave drive from the output of a 74UHS125 or similar CMOS buffer to drive the phase detector input. There is a NIST paper that indicates a square wave LO drive for some mixers improves the performance somewhat. 

If reverse isolation isnt an issue a pushpull transformer feedback Norton amp works well.

I just bought the HELA10's on evaluation PCBs complete with brass metalwork..

Bruce

 

    On Friday, 25 March 2016 4:02 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
 

 Hi

If you think the HELA10 is fun at 10 MHz, try it at 1 MHz :)

The RPD-1 is a 1 MHz to 100 MHz part. That pretty well covers *most* of the low 
phase noise OCXO’s that people find running around in their junk boxes. To be 
“general purpose”, an amp would need to cover the same range. With two OCXO’s 
and two mixers, you would need 4 amps if they are after the splitters. By the time you
get even the HELA10’s on heatsinks and boards you probably are around $40 an 
amplifier. Finding a part that is “as good as” the HELA10 is at 100 MHz, but at 1 MHz, 
is not very easy ….

=====

Sort of on a bit different part of the same topic:

There is nothing magic about the RPD-1 other than it is easy to dead bug and attach leaded 
parts to. If one is doing a pc board, the SYPD-1 is the same thing in a cheaper 
surface mount package. The $5.70 you save will pay for a few square inches of pc board. 

Bob


> On Mar 24, 2016, at 9:31 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> Actually if you split the signal and then amplify each output independently then the PN performance of the RF amps is not too critical in that cross correlation averages the amplifier PN down as well as that of the mixers.I've done this with the Timepod using quite noisy amps as nothing else was immediately to hand.It just takes a little longer but works very well. I measured the output PN noise of an LTC6957 evaluation board this way using a couple of minicircuits HELA10s which are fairly noisy at 10MHz.
> If you don't need a PN floor below -180dBc/Hz then there are simple inexpensive one transistor (plus another for biasing) circuits that will achieve a few dB of gain with a PN noise floor well below -170dBc/Hz.The only real limitation is due to the presence of anti correlated thermal noise at the splitter outputs.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> 
>    On Friday, 25 March 2016 2:06 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> That’s another good point about the need to work out a target device. Both 
> of the possible target devices I mentioned have enough channels to do at least a 
> dual channel measurement. That would add another mixer and a pair of power
> splitters along with another amp chain. 
> 
> The other part of that news is the RF drive power required goes up. You can do a pretty good job
> of saturating an RPD-1 with +7 dbm. Most (but not all) OCXO’s and other gizmos will
> provide that without any amplifiers involved. Adding a 3 db splitter gets you into the 10 dbm 
> range. That is getting fairly close to the limit for a lot of devices.
> 
> You can add an amp. The ones that work without impacting the phase noise of a high quality 
> OCXO  cost as much as the audio cards or USB devices. Cost wise, I’d keep that sort
> of thing off the main board. 
> 
> So what is the second channel worth? 
> 
> The basic single channel design will get you into the -173 to -176 dbc / Hz range on a fairly high
> power pair of OCXO’s. The cross correlation “stuff” will get you past that point. Is that worth taking 
> the BOM (without board and power supply) up to $80 or so? Consider that with the board and
> power supply, it likely is over $100.
> 
> Would I do it as an accessory to a Janus or QA401? Maybe. You would need to pick one or 
> the other. In the case of the Janus, there are more software issues and some noise floor testing. 
> The QA401 is mighty expensive. The original idea was to use the sound card you already have ….
> 
> Bob 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:30 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>> 
>> If the software implements acquisition of cross power spectra
>> Then one could implement a near state of the art cross correlation PN test set 
>> based on this.
>> With a suitable preamp the sound card could also be used for power supply and 
>> reference noise measurement.
>> 
>> Bruce
>> 
>> On Thursday, March 24, 2016 04:54:47 PM Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The board is pretty non-critical. It’s 90% audio. The biggest hassle is a
>>> power supply. You would *like* a fairly high voltage, at least if you are
>>> driving a spectrum analyzer. That may not be quite the case with a sound
>>> card. It depends a *lot* which one you are running. Something like a QA401:
>>> 
>>> https://www.quantasylum.com/content/Products/QA401.aspx
>>> 
>>> Would make a good target device. It’s based on the AKM 5397 So might some
>>> Janus boards. They are based on the earlier(?) AKM 5394. The QA401 has the
>>> advantage of a nice box and full USB isolation (ground loops are a pain)..
>>> It also has drivers and all the OS hooks. The Janus is a bit more “DIY”
>>> with no drivers or interface (let alone isolation). The Janus is < 1/4 the
>>> price.
>>> 
>>> The high voltage (+/- 18V linear regulated)  supply approach makes a lot of
>>> sense with the QA401. It probably does not make as much sense with the
>>> Janus. Switching regulators of any sort are something I would strongly
>>> recommend against in a system like this that is trying to measure noise
>>> floor at audio ….
>>> 
>>> The schematic changes a bit depending on what the target is. I can draw it
>>> up if there is a consensus on the target. One example: If the “sound card”
>>> is DC coupled, you can use it to indicate (and check) quadrature. If it’s
>>> an AC device, you need some sort of isolated output for another indicator.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 24, 2016, at 1:31 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <jra at febo.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I'd be willing to assist with board layout if someone wanted to make this
>>>> into a real project (e.g., fully developed schematic).  TAPR might be
>>>> talked into supplying at least bare boards; we'd have to get a sense of
>>>> demand before committing to a full kit or assembled unit.
>>>> 
>>>> John
>>>> ----
>>>> 
>>>> On 3/24/2016 9:04 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>>>> More like $40 in parts, without a board, etc.
>>>>> The RPD-1 is $20.70
>>>>> LT1678/LT1679 is a nice low noise opamp that does rail to rail and is
>>>>> about $5
>>>>> etc
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/24/16 4:42 AM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Pretty simple:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Double balanced mixer, RPD-1 is one option, there are others.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Fairly simple L/C lowpass between the mixer and an op-amp.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 20 db positive (non-inverting) op-amp amplifier string after the mixer
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Output of the string goes to the sound card. Use a good (dual / quad)
>>>>>> audio op amp
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Quadrature amp picks off the output of the first op amp stage, switch
>>>>>> and resistors to set gain, pot to set op point.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ====
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So what you have is an old style quadrature phase noise amp and “PLL”.
>>>>>> More or less a very junior version
>>>>>> of the 3048 test box. Like any setup of this sort, you check two
>>>>>> similar oscillators. They run in quadrature and
>>>>>> you do a few “measure this with switch in position A” sort of things
>>>>>> to set things up each time.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Nothing exotic.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any documentation on this $40 phase noise test set?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rick N6RK
>>>>> 
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