[time-nuts] Anybody want a Thunderbolt power supply?

Scott Stobbe scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com
Sun Oct 23 14:12:46 EDT 2016


I would certainly hope a 7912 would be good enough, because at 1ppm rms in
0.1 Hz to 10 Hz there is maybe a little over one order magnitude left with
a dedicated low-noise reference. In all likely hood the reference on board
the thunderbolt likely has 1ppm pk-pk over 0.1 to 10 Hz band. Tempco for
the 7912 is out 3 orders of magnitude what could be achievable with a
dedicated reference.

I'm sure the rough hand calculations for the PSRR of a thunder bolt will
turn up with a figure that basically puts any jellybean linear regulator to
be more than good enough.

If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you will see why Nick had
suggested the -12V rail being the most critical.

"  It seems about 1/4 to 1/3  of the temperature sensitivity of the system
could be attributed to the power supply and the rest came from the
oscillator/tbolt.  Some attention to the tempco of the power supply would
be a good thing."

"I found that for best performance the -12v supply, which feeds the DAC,
needs to be about 1000 times better than what you are shooting for (i.e.,
low tens of uVp-p).  That surprised me, because I assumed there must be
some internal regulation of the DAC supplies -- but it was what my testing
showed."

On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> The op amp has a PSRR of roughly 90 db at 1 Hz. As frequency goes up, the
> PSRR
> gets worse. What frequency is your “signal” at?
>
> A very normal 7912 fed by a normal supply will not produce a noticeable
> degradation
> in phase nose on the TBolt. Putting an un-filtered switcher on any of the
> lines is going
> to get you noise on the common ground that *will* come through.
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Oct 22, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think we are coming up to the noise floor here. We have identified a
> > potential signal A from a 7912 (likely similar to a 7812, no guarentee).
> > The remaining question is if you apply signal A to the power pin of a
> > thunderbolt what is signal B added to the output. We know where we want
> > signal B to be, below the noise. Knowing the PSSR for each of the power
> > inputs would be one way to answer this question.
> >
> > On Saturday, 22 October 2016, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> There is an *enormous* difference between regulation and it’s impact on
> >> stability (which is what this drifted off into) and PSRR and it’s
> impact on
> >> phase noise (which got lost at the tread moved on). PSRR does indeed
> >> matter, but a fairly simple linear regulator (or pair of cheap ones or
> >> coil plus
> >> pair) can take care of that.
> >>
> >> The EFC reference in the TBolt comes from the TBolt board and not from
> the
> >> OCXO.
> >> It is not in any way connected to the -12 V supply line.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Oct 22, 2016, at 12:41 PM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com
> >> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bob, this is good data and insights thanks for taking the time to
> share.
> >>> Ultimately the question Nick is hoping to answer is what is the point
> of
> >>> diminishing returns for voltage regulation. I think there are plenty of
> >>> folks on this list that have shared data suggesting a switching
> regulator
> >>> which meets these specifications:
> >>>
> >>> Table 3-2 Power Specifications (Board-only)
> >>> +12v +/-10% max current 750 mA
> >>> +5v +/-5% max current 400 mA
> >>> -12v +/-10% max current 10 mA
> >>> Ripple
> >>> +5v 50 mV peak-to-peak, 15 mVrms
> >>> +/-12v 75 mV peak-to-peak, 20 mVrms
> >>>
> >>> definitely has a degrading impact on the 10MHz phase noise.
> >>>
> >>> I would happily agree that PSRR of an opamp buffering the EFC line is
> not
> >>> going to have a significant impact on performance with a jellybean LDO.
> >>>
> >>> Do you know if the +- 5V reference is derived on board or is it from an
> >> EFC
> >>> reference provided by the ocxo?
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Oct 22, 2016 at 11:31 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org
> <javascript:;>>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> The -12 V line is not the reference for the EFC. It *is* one supply
> into
> >>>> the op amp circuit
> >>>> that drives the EFC. Since the EFC is +/- 5V, there must be both a
> >>>> positive and
> >>>> a negative supply into the driver circuit for full output swing. The
> -12
> >>>> can be anything between about
> >>>> -13 and -7 without significantly impacting the function of the device.
> >> In
> >>>> fact, people
> >>>> with EFC voltages that are slightly positive have accidentally proven
> >> that
> >>>> the
> >>>> TBolt will work (lock up and function correctly) with zero volts on
> the
> >>>> -12V line.
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Oct 22, 2016, at 10:24 AM, Scott Stobbe <scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com
> >> <javascript:;>>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It all depends what the -12V rail is for, some have said it directly
> >>>>> references the EFC dac. I would hope an ocxo would have a better
> tuning
> >>>>> gain on its efc pin than supply pin but maybe that's not always true.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Saturday, 22 October 2016, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org
> <javascript:;>>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The +12 goes straight to the OCXO. All OCXO’s have a voltage
> >>>> sensitivity.
> >>>>>> That sensitivity is much higher than voltage sensitivity is much
> >> higher
> >>>>>> than
> >>>>>> what you see on the other two supply pins.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Oct 21, 2016, at 11:06 PM, Scott Stobbe <
> scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com
> >> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Interesting, I would have thought that the +12V input would be
> >>>> extremely
> >>>>>>> well regulated since its shared with the oven heater, I*R drops are
> >>>> going
> >>>>>>> to show up every where, if your looking for uV levels of stability.
> >>>>>>> Just a connector has milliohms of contact resistance, let alone
> >> routing
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> cables...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Friday, 21 October 2016, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org <javascript:;>
> >> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Oct 21, 2016, at 7:44 PM, Scott Stobbe <
> >> scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com <javascript:;>
> >>>>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> A little more data on the 7912.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The first plot shows the tempCo of the 7912 measured with ambient
> >>>>>>>>> temperature swings "7912_TempCo.png". Which is -150 ppm/degC.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> The second plot is off a 7912 logged for an hour or so,
> >>>>>> "7912_1PLC.png",
> >>>>>>>>> nothing too interesting here. However the environmental
> temperature
> >>>>>> swing
> >>>>>>>>> of about 1 degC/hour is pretty conservative for a DUT sitting in
> >> free
> >>>>>>>> air.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Finally, an allan devation plot looking at the normalized
> stability
> >>>> of
> >>>>>> a
> >>>>>>>>> 7912 regulator "7912_AllanDeviation.png". Interestingly here, is,
> >> how
> >>>>>>>> quick
> >>>>>>>>> a 15 mK/min temperature swing shoots above the 1/f floor, it's a
> >>>> matter
> >>>>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>>> seconds.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Now if your PSRR is 1 ppb/V or better, then all of this is
> >>>> comfortably
> >>>>>>>>> below the intrinsic noise of a thunderbolt.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The main point is that the internal tempco of the TBolt it’s self
> is
> >>>>>> much
> >>>>>>>> larger than
> >>>>>>>> the issues surrounding the power supply pins. The +12 is the only
> >> one
> >>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>> sensitive enough to voltage (change in frequency vs voltage) to
> >>>>>> contribute
> >>>>>>>> to any
> >>>>>>>> significant way to the overall stability.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 12:20 AM, Scott Stobbe <
> >>>>>> scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Nick had mention that the -12V rail on the thunderbolt has the
> >>>> poorest
> >>>>>>>>>> PSRR with respect to frequency output, so I first took a look at
> >> the
> >>>>>>>>>> venerable 7912.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The first data-set was taken with a -13.5 VDC input. Attached is
> >> the
> >>>>>> 0.1
> >>>>>>>>>> Hz to 10 Hz noise of an essentially quiescently loaded 7912,
> only
> >> a
> >>>>>> 10k
> >>>>>>>>>> resistor was added as load for preliminary evaluation. With a 60
> >> dB
> >>>>>>>> preamp
> >>>>>>>>>> the scale of the scope plot is 20 uV/div. The 0.1Hz to 10Hz band
> >>>> noise
> >>>>>>>> is
> >>>>>>>>>> 15 uVrms, which is about 1.3 ppm rms of the DC mean.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> In allan deviation terms, a quiescently loaded 7912 has a spot
> >> noise
> >>>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> 7
> >>>>>>>>>> uV/rtHz at 1 Hz (on the 1/f slope), normalized that's 580
> >> ppb/rtHz.
> >>>>>>>>>> Equivalently speaking, the flicker noise floor of an allan
> >> deviation
> >>>>>>>> plot
> >>>>>>>>>> would be sqrt(2*ln(2)) that figure to be 6.8E-7.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Assuming a thunderbolt should be achieving 1/f floor of around
> >>>> 1E-12,
> >>>>>> it
> >>>>>>>>>> would need a PSRR of at least 1 ppm/V. I'm sure someone has gone
> >> to
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> trouble of actually measuring it.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> So from a 0.1 Hz to 10 Hz noise standpoint, the 7912 isn't
> >> terrible
> >>>>>>>>>> with 1.3 ppm rms noise, considering an LM399 is about 0.1 ppm
> rms,
> >>>>>> only
> >>>>>>>> one
> >>>>>>>>>> order of magnitude off.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The bad side of a 7912 is in long-term stability and tempCo, the
> >>>>>> sample
> >>>>>>>> I
> >>>>>>>>>> tested had at least a 150 ppm/degC tempCo, which is going to
> put a
> >>>>>>>> serious
> >>>>>>>>>> lump/bump in the 10s tau to gps crossover point on an allan
> >>>> deviation
> >>>>>>>> plot.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 3:05 PM, Scott Stobbe <
> >>>>>> scott.j.stobbe at gmail.com <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I have some 7805s lying around, maybe a 7812/7912. I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>> interested to see the 1/f noise of a classic regulator, what
> load
> >>>>>>>> current
> >>>>>>>>>>> do you expect? I can bias a 7805 for the same load and measure
> >> the
> >>>>>> 0.1
> >>>>>>>> to
> >>>>>>>>>>> 10 Hz noise.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Also if you have a digital scope without a very good builtin
> FFT,
> >>>>>>>> octave
> >>>>>>>>>>> would be one solution.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <
> >>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts at febo.com <javascript:;> <javascript:;>
> >> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Just an update. I’ve built the second prototype board (I
> skipped
> >>>>>> over
> >>>>>>>>>>>> the first design), and it’s powering my tbolt right now.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> The design calls for 15v in (though it would also work with
> >>>> 13.8v).
> >>>>>>>> The
> >>>>>>>>>>>> +12 output comes from a D2PAK 7812. For +5, there is an AP1509
> >>>> buck
> >>>>>>>>>>>> converter to make around 6.5 volts, then a DPAK 7805. For -12,
> >>>> there
> >>>>>>>> is an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> MC34063 configured as an inverter to make around -13.75 volts
> >> and
> >>>>>>>> then a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> DPAK 7912.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Steady-state, the system appears to be working just fine. The
> >>>>>> AP1509’s
> >>>>>>>>>>>> inductor and the D2PAK 7812 are just warm to the touch.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I checked for noise and ripple on the outputs and it’s
> somewhere
> >>>>>>>> around
> >>>>>>>>>>>> ±2 mV or so generally. From what I can see on the scope,
> there’s
> >>>> no
> >>>>>>>> ripple
> >>>>>>>>>>>> - it’s all high frequency noise. I am not absolutely certain
> >> that
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> noise
> >>>>>>>>>>>> measurement represents real noise or the limits of my
> measuring
> >>>>>>>> ability.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I’m just using the scope probes the scope came with, and 2
> >> mV/div
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>>> its
> >>>>>>>>>>>> lowest range.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I haven’t compared the noise with the ex laptop supply that I
> >> was
> >>>>>>>> using
> >>>>>>>>>>>> before, but I’d have to believe it’s cleaner. I don’t really
> >> have
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>>> way to
> >>>>>>>>>>>> check the oscillator’s before and after ADEV. My only other
> >>>>>> reference
> >>>>>>>> is an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> FE5680A, and I think the thunderbolt’s going to be far better
> at
> >>>>>>>> lower tau
> >>>>>>>>>>>> (where this all matters).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I know also that ±2 mV is still one and perhaps two orders of
> >>>>>>>> magnitude
> >>>>>>>>>>>> higher than some have called for. But before I attempt to
> reduce
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>>> noise
> >>>>>>>>>>>> further, I’d like to know that there are real gains to be had.
> >>>> Would
> >>>>>>>>>>>> someone with a Thunderbolt and better output noise measuring
> >>>>>>>> wherewithal be
> >>>>>>>>>>>> willing to take a prototype and compare it with something that
> >>>> does
> >>>>>>>> have µV
> >>>>>>>>>>>> levels of noise and ripple so I can get an idea of what there
> is
> >>>> to
> >>>>>>>> gain?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> If you like, you can make such comparisons public - no secrets
> >>>> here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2016, at 10:37 PM, Nick Sayer <nsayer at kfu.com
> >> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 30, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Cube Central <
> >>>> cubecentral at gmail.com <javascript:;>
> >>>>>> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>>>> <javascript:;>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would be interested, I think.  Planning ahead for if the
> >> one I
> >>>>>>>> have
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for my Thunderbolt fails, I guess.  Are there different models
> >> or
> >>>>>>>> would a
> >>>>>>>>>>>> photo of the input ports on mine be useful?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, what I had in mind is to just put a SIP4 header on
> >> the
> >>>>>>>> board
> >>>>>>>>>>>> for the output and people could wire the “last mile”
> themselves.
> >>>> The
> >>>>>>>> input
> >>>>>>>>>>>> is a 2.1mm barrel connector. You use whatever 15W 12VDC wall
> >> wart
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>>> handy
> >>>>>>>>>>>> and plug it right in.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What it really amounts to is that you get +12 volts directly
> >> from
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>>>> input, then there’s a buck converter to drop the +12 down to
> +5
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> an
> >>>>>>>>>>>> inverter to generate -12 from the +12. Those 3 voltages, plus
> a
> >>>>>>>> ground go
> >>>>>>>>>>>> to the SIP4.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> So it’s just two switching power supplies to turn a +12 volt
> >> only
> >>>>>>>>>>>> supply into the three-way that the Thunderbolt wants.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It’d be good for around 1500 mA @ 5V and around 50 mA @ -12
> >> (the
> >>>>>> +12
> >>>>>>>>>>>> spec is whatever is left from the source supply’s power spec)
> -
> >>>> more
> >>>>>>>> than
> >>>>>>>>>>>> enough for a Thunderbolt. Probably enough for a hard disk or a
> >>>>>>>> smallish PC.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >> <javascript:;>
> >>>>>> <javascript:;>
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> >>>>>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> <7912_1PLC.png><7912_AllanDeviation.png><7912_
> >>>>>>>> TempCo.png>_______________________________________________
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