From cdelect at juno.com  Fri Feb  2 14:02:27 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
Message-ID: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>

Hi,

Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.

It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.

I'm almost afraid to ask!

Cheers,

Corby


From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Feb  3 17:02:01 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 23:02:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>

On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
<cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
> 
> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
> 
> I'm almost afraid to ask!

I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb  3 17:34:49 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 17:34:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>

Hi

The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal blank 
to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the blank”
and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
of the two.

In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery lead
time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
> <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
> 
>> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
>> 
>> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
>> 
>> I'm almost afraid to ask!
> 
> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Feb  3 17:50:15 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 23:50:15 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/03/2018 11:34 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal blank 
> to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the blank”
> and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
> electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
> of the two.
> 
> In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery lead
> time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
>> <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
>>>
>>> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
>>>
>>> I'm almost afraid to ask!
>>
>> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
>> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
>> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
>> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
>> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
>> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
>> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
>> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
>>
>> 			Attila Kinali
>>
>> -- 
>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>> use without that foundation.
>>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat Feb  3 18:31:16 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2018 23:31:16 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D
anielson writes:

>The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
>simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
>simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.

I heard a talk about "microfluidic system production" last year,
those are basically hydraulic systems on micrometer scale, mostly
for medical diagnostic applications.

There was some banter about available tools[1] and some of the ones
mentioned immediately rang the "BVA" bell in my mind.

It sounded to me like there are machines commercially available
today which could spit out very repeatable BVA assemblies in one
single operation.

I have no idea if the result would actually work and be on frequency,
or for that matter, where I can borrow one of those machines, but...

The prices mentioned were not prohibitive in the context, you would
break even well before a thousand units at the prices mentioned.

Poul-Henning

[1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb  3 19:03:25 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 19:03:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <3F5FFFF1-16B6-4C47-83C3-7A6AD6C2EC9D@n1k.org>

Hi

Back when the BVA was up for sale, by far the biggest issue was the machining involved
in making those slots. They don’t just have to be slots. They have to be very precise. Etching
will not do the trick. Neither will most machining processes. Electrode shape changes have
been part of resonator production for a lot of years …..

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:50 PM, Magnus Danielson <magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
> simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
> simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 02/03/2018 11:34 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> The “BVA” part of the name refers to the slots machined into the crystal blank 
>> to manage the mounting stress on the resonator. Both the “plated on the blank”
>> and the “electrodes off blank” versions are legit BVA approaches. Indeed the 
>> electrode off the blank version is the more expensive (and higher performing)
>> of the two.
>> 
>> In addition to price, one probably would want to get a quote of the delivery lead
>> time. There are some fancy OCXO’s out there with > 1 year delivery cycles. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Feb 3, 2018, at 5:02 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2 Feb 2018 11:02:27 -0800
>>> <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Anyone priced a Rakon HSO-14 option 8.
>>>> 
>>>> It's the Oscilloquartz 8607 option 8 replacement.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm almost afraid to ask!
>>> 
>>> I do not know the HSO-14, but when I asked what the 8607 costs new, I
>>> got ~5000 CHF for the "lowest" grade and over 14k CHF for the highest
>>> grade. Of course this was a couple of years ago. I do not know how
>>> the prices changed in the meantime. Considering that Rakon does not
>>> build a true BVA, but instead puts the electrodes directly on the
>>> resonator, I would expect them to be quite a bit cheaper (because
>>> it doesn't require the couple of µm precision between the resonator
>>> and the holder/elctrodes the BVA has).
>>> 
>>> 			Attila Kinali
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
>>> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
>>> use without that foundation.
>>>                -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Sat Feb  3 19:05:51 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 16:05:51 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>

On 2/3/18 3:31 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27 at rubidium.dyndns.org>, Magnus D
> anielson writes:
> 
>> The slots and thus the remaining bridges seems to have been a relatively
>> simple stage of the process. Orientation of the blank seems to have been
>> simple. The shapes for the electrodes seems to have been worse.
> 

> 
> I have no idea if the result would actually work and be on frequency,
> or for that matter, where I can borrow one of those machines, but...

with increased use of very high performance DDS and PLLs, the precise 
frequency may not be as important as it was when you were limited to 
straight up multiplication/mixing synthesis.

I suspect that a "10 MHz +/- 100kHz" might be a higher yield requirement 
than 10 MHz +/- 1ppm or +/- 1 ppb.

You could focus more on aging behavior.



> 
> The prices mentioned were not prohibitive in the context, you would
> break even well before a thousand units at the prices mentioned.
> 
> Poul-Henning
> 
> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.

But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.


> 


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat Feb  3 19:24:29 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 00:24:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:

>> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
>> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
>
>But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.

Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
covered...

I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
laser-interferrometers etc.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb  3 20:05:37 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 20:05:37 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>

Hi

If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very 
likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away 
from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
the (possibly) damaged material. 

Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and that
to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the 
work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
to validate a process. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
> 
>>> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
>>> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
>> 
>> But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> 
> Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> covered...
> 
> I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> laser-interferrometers etc.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Feb  3 20:15:47 2018
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 14:15:47 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>

Fluid jet polishing perhaps?

At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated subsurface damage.

Bruce

> 
>     On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>     Hi
> 
>     If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very
>     likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
>     aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
>     quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away
>     from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
>     the (possibly) damaged material.
> 
>     Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and that
>     to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the
>     work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
>     to validate a process.
> 
>     Bob
> 
>         > > 
> >         On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> > 
> >         --------
> >         In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
> > 
> >             > > > 
> > >                 > > > > 
> > > >                 [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
> > > >                 CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
> > > > 
> > > >             > > > 
> > >             But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> > > 
> > >         > > 
> >         Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> >         covered...
> > 
> >         I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> >         as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> >         laser-interferrometers etc.
> > 
> >         --
> >         Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> >         phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> >         FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> >         Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> > 
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >         To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >         and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> >     > 
>     _______________________________________________
>     time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>     To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>     and follow the instructions there.
> 

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb  3 21:26:29 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 21:26:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>

Hi

Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose” approach
is not very fast…..

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> 
> Fluid jet polishing perhaps?
> 
> At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated subsurface damage.
> 
> Bruce
> 
> On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very
> likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
> aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
> quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away
> from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
> the (possibly) damaged material.
> 
> Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and that
> to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the
> work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
> to validate a process.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
> 
> [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
> CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
> 
> But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> 
> Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> covered...
> 
> I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> laser-interferrometers etc.
> 
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts <https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts <https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Sat Feb  3 21:46:41 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2018 18:46:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: Message from Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> of "Sat,
 03 Feb 2018 21:26:29 EST." <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180204024641.B16CD40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


kb8tq at n1k.org said:
> Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose”
> approach is not very fast….. 

How fast to laser blasters work and/or how much do they damage the crystal?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb  3 22:20:01 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2018 22:20:01 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <20180204024641.B16CD40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20180204024641.B16CD40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <989C438C-6275-42EA-AF09-04DE8F58EAC2@n1k.org>

Hi

Anything like a laser that generates heat to do the “work” will twin the quartz. 
Once you do that, it’s pretty much useless as a resonator. The same issue 
gets you in trouble trying to wire bond to a resonator. 

Bob

> On Feb 3, 2018, at 9:46 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> kb8tq at n1k.org said:
>> Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose”
>> approach is not very fast….. 
> 
> How fast to laser blasters work and/or how much do they damage the crystal?
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz  Sat Feb  3 22:39:16 2018
From: bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz (Bruce Griffiths)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 16:39:16 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>

There is abrasive entrained in the fluid stream. Operation is in the ductile grinding regime so fluid pressures are around 6 bar or so, way below that used in abrasive water jet cutting.

It has been used to machine/polish crystal quartz waveplates and to machine/polish the surface of silicon wafers before uses for MEMS fabrication. Its even been used to carve channels in silicon wafers in such applications.

Bruce

 

>     On 04 February 2018 at 15:26 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>     Hi
> 
>     Unfortunately ( at the rates you must use) the “blast it with a fire hose” approach
>     is not very fast…..
> 
>     Bob
> 
> 
>         > >         On Feb 3, 2018, at 8:15 PM, Bruce Griffiths <bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz mailto:bruce.griffiths at xtra.co.nz > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >         Fluid jet polishing perhaps?
> > 
> >         At least on fused quartz and optical glass there is no associated subsurface damage.
> > 
> >         Bruce
> > 
> >             > > > 
> > >             On 04 February 2018 at 14:05 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org mailto:kb8tq at n1k.org > wrote:
> > > 
> > >             Hi
> > > 
> > >             If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very
> > >             likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
> > >             aging and a few other issues ….. Much of the normal production flow of the
> > >             quartz is designed to keep the processes like sawing far enough away
> > >             from the “end product” that more gentle techniques can be used to remove
> > >             the (possibly) damaged material.
> > > 
> > >             Since the slots are pretty darn small, there isn’t a lot of room for this and that
> > >             to be done when making them. There may well be better ways to do the
> > >             work today than back 20 or 30 years ago. It would still take a *lot* of effort
> > >             to validate a process.
> > > 
> > >             Bob
> > > 
> > >                 > > > > 
> > > >                 On Feb 3, 2018, at 7:24 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk mailto:phk at phk.freebsd.dk > wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >                 --------
> > > >                 In message <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net mailto:0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3 at earthlink.net >, jimlux writes:
> > > > 
> > > >                     > > > > > 
> > > > >                         > > > > > > 
> > > > > >                         [1] Surprising to me is that modern dentists are highly kitted for
> > > > > >                         CNC-ing very hard ceramic materials at high precision.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >                     > > > > > 
> > > > >                     But, small "tooth sized" pieces - how big is your crystal.
> > > > > 
> > > > >                 > > > > 
> > > >                 Well, they appearantly make a mouth-full at a time, so that is
> > > >                 covered...
> > > > 
> > > >                 I don't think the dentist machines are precise enough though,
> > > >                 as I understood it, the state-of-the-art stuff has built in
> > > >                 laser-interferrometers etc.
> > > > 
> > > >                 --
> > > >                 Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > > >                 phk at FreeBSD.ORG mailto:phk at FreeBSD.ORG | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > > >                 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > > >                 Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> > > > 
> > > >                 _______________________________________________
> > > >                 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
> > > >                 To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > >                 and follow the instructions there.
> > > > 
> > > >             > > > 
> > >             _______________________________________________
> > >             time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com mailto:time-nuts at febo.com
> > >             To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > >             and follow the instructions there.
> > > 
> > >         > > 
> >     > 
> 

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Feb  4 07:13:02 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 12:13:02 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <480971424.644410.1517715556849 at webmail.xtra.co.nz>, Bruce Griffiths
 writes:

>It has been used to machine/polish crystal quartz waveplates and
>to machine/polish the surface of silicon wafers before uses for
>MEMS fabrication. Its even been used to carve channels in silicon
>wafers in such applications.

The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
skill-level in that area:

	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740

I'm pretty sure that it is not the machine control but rather the
metrology that would be the challenge.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Feb  4 07:24:52 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 12:24:52 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <548.1517747092@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>If you try “normal” machining techniques on a resonator, you are very 
>likely to create micro cracks in the material. Those are *really* bad for
>aging and a few other issues ….. 

So that brings me to another question:

We use quartz crystals in very simple geometries, usually cylinder
slabs, with very perfect surfaces - for all kinds of good and
sane reasons.

But mostly we use simple geometries because that is what we could
make work, with the pretty crude production mechanisms in second
world war.

On the other side of the business we have SAW resonators which uses
very complex conductor patterns on the surface to do their thing.

If we can/could etch quartz in *precise* complex patterns at will,
regardless of crystal orientation, sort of like the stuff we do in
silicon wafers already:

	https://www.micralyne.com/fabrication-capabilities/etching/

Would that open up any interesting possibilities, or is the simple
cylinder slab by definition the best ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Sun Feb  4 08:33:15 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 05:33:15 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
Message-ID: <81CF7E7CD1364061B1D0CA05F8DFA52A@pc52>

FYI: here's an old plot where I evaluated an Oscilloquartz 8607 BVA against a H-maser. It gets down to 8e-14 but is likely a bit better. On this plot, I suspect the short-term numbers were not the BVA oscillator or the TSC 5110A analyzer, but the H-maser.

/tvb
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb  4 09:21:54 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <480971424.644410.1517715556849 at webmail.xtra.co.nz>, Bruce Griffiths
> writes:
> 
>> It has been used to machine/polish crystal quartz waveplates and
>> to machine/polish the surface of silicon wafers before uses for
>> MEMS fabrication. Its even been used to carve channels in silicon
>> wafers in such applications.
> 
> The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
> skill-level in that area:
> 
> 	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 <https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740>

The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are 
playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going 
non-parallel. I seem to remember that you need straight walls on the cuts to
keep everything happy in terms of reflecting sound. 

There *is* a lot of work done on odd shaped crystals. Your wrist watch has a
good example of that in it. It all comes down to what sort of process is required 
to achieve the result. With the BVA the real answer is that you can do a mount
that achieves the same thing for a lot less money. 

Either way, you are simply taking care of one plane (just like the SC). Forces 
in the real world rarely are nice enough to only show up in one plane ….

Bob


> 
> I'm pretty sure that it is not the machine control but rather the
> metrology that would be the challenge.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From timing.fanatic at gmail.com  Sun Feb  4 14:21:04 2018
From: timing.fanatic at gmail.com (Eugene Timing)
Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2018 19:21:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum 1000B troubleshooting
Message-ID: <CAGj4t1GVWwkf8+h+LUre7OCHR=C_fcO56YiODxUWx9WD3uLN2g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm still relatively new in this area but I'm trying to troubleshoot an
issue with a Datum 1000B I picked up last year.  This unit is the 10MHz
flavor with 4 outputs.  Its issues, I believe, is after 24 hours of
warm-up, the oscillator:
- ...has a flat-out dead output for one of the outputs, other 3 outputs work
- ...exhibits an unstable frequency output, from all working ports

I own only a modest set of equipment (Racal 1992 and a Thunderbolt I bought
from the group-buy years ago) for frequency testing, but my Racal is
showing me the frequency is fluctuating between just under and over 10MHz.
Someone on this list previously coined the term "poor-man's spectrum
analyzer" method with a Thunderbolt, and that's what I did - I stuck the
oscillator output to my modified external-oscillator fed Thunderbolt.  This
Thunderbolt has been used to discipline a variety of oscillators (10811A/D
and 60111s, Morion 89A) and generally shows 30-50ppt with the noisy GPS
reference.  With the 1000B it's showing about a 500-1000ppt fluctuation
with GPS.  While I know GPS is generally noisy, I'm pretty sure the 1000B
figure isn't normal.

My test setup is +24V connected to all powered inputs and the EFC input is
grounded.  The trim pot on the oscillator face does seem to be able put the
oscillator on-frequency.

I'm hoping this list can tell me what common issues this old-ish unit
generally exhibits in terms of instability before I deep dive into its
innards, but here are my thoughts:
- Large 24V supply ripples
- Bad oscillator power regulator(?)
- Failed oven heater controller to heat crystal to its turn-over point?

I don't think it's any of the output buffer circuits since this noise
appears on all working outputs...

The unit starts up with a current consumption of 410mA cold, then drops to
about 80mA @ 24V after fully warmed up.

Any suggestions/pointers from this list would be welcome!

-Eugene

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb  4 14:38:42 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 14:38:42 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <81CF7E7CD1364061B1D0CA05F8DFA52A@pc52>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <81CF7E7CD1364061B1D0CA05F8DFA52A@pc52>
Message-ID: <89840277-657A-4089-9F54-6FB59F0297EC@n1k.org>

Hi

Obviously you need two more 8607’s ….. :)

I suspect you are correct and the OCXO is doing better than the close in data suggests. 

Bob

> On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
> FYI: here's an old plot where I evaluated an Oscilloquartz 8607 BVA against a H-maser. It gets down to 8e-14 but is likely a bit better. On this plot, I suspect the short-term numbers were not the BVA oscillator or the TSC 5110A analyzer, but the H-maser.
> 
> /tvb
> <log37169v.gif>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jra at febo.com  Sun Feb  4 14:54:05 2018
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 14:54:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rakon HSO-14
In-Reply-To: <89840277-657A-4089-9F54-6FB59F0297EC@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <81CF7E7CD1364061B1D0CA05F8DFA52A@pc52>
 <89840277-657A-4089-9F54-6FB59F0297EC@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <b2c0add4-99de-78e4-cf83-0fbcada230ef@febo.com>

Here's a link to data on an 8607-008.  You may recognize the bottom plot 
from a recent posting. :-)  But the ADEV and PN data at the top of the 
page is from the factory test data.  The ADEV doesn't explicitly say so, 
but I strongly believe it's based on comparison with a "gold standard" 8607.

http://febo.com/pages/oscillators/bva/

John
----

On 02/04/2018 02:38 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Obviously you need two more 8607’s ….. :)
> 
> I suspect you are correct and the OCXO is doing better than the close in data suggests.
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 8:33 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
>>
>> FYI: here's an old plot where I evaluated an Oscilloquartz 8607 BVA against a H-maser. It gets down to 8e-14 but is likely a bit better. On this plot, I suspect the short-term numbers were not the BVA oscillator or the TSC 5110A analyzer, but the H-maser.
>>
>> /tvb
>> <log37169v.gif>_______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From planophore at aei.ca  Sun Feb  4 17:31:32 2018
From: planophore at aei.ca (Graham)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:31:32 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
Message-ID: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>

For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a 
number HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.

For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.

The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked 
to UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.

Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with 
all of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source 
in North America.

The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some 
amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur 
10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be 
transmitted at a fairly high power level.

I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives 
researching GPS backup systems.

Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on 
HF like this?

cheers, Graham ve3gtc


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sun Feb  4 18:03:27 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 00:03:27 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
References: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
Message-ID: <a61baa88-8656-73d0-cb19-d99e45b74c11@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

You should look at WSPR, QRSS, RTTY, JT65, JT8 etc which all belong to a
set of amateur digital modes which show up on those frequencies.

http://www.g6nhu.co.uk/frequencies.html
http://www.rttycontesting.com/rtty/rtty-sub-bands/

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/04/2018 11:31 PM, Graham wrote:
> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a
> number HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
> 
> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
> 
> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked
> to UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
> 
> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with
> all of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source
> in North America.
> 
> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
> 
> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
> researching GPS backup systems.
> 
> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
> HF like this?
> 
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From cdelect at juno.com  Sun Feb  4 23:55:21 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 20:55:21 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] PIX of some vintage Rubidium optical units
Message-ID: <AABPHR294AB2YQSA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>

While sorting some stuff for a new project took a PIX of these vintage
classic Rubidium optical units.

Top is the Varian V4700 (first commercial Rubidium Standard.
Middle left is the Varian R-20
Middle right is the Tracor 304D/308A
And last but definitely not least the HP 5065A

Cheers,

Corby
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From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Feb  5 08:54:51 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:54:51 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals (was: Rakon HSO-14)
In-Reply-To: <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>

On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> > The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
> > skill-level in that area:
> > 
> > 	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 <https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740>
> 
> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are 
> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going 
> non-parallel.

That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.

Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.

It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures). 



				Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb  5 09:13:08 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:13:08 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals (was: Rakon HSO-14)
In-Reply-To: <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>
 <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <50D32078-A506-4E1A-91EB-812EAC0A9661@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Feb 5, 2018, at 8:54 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>>> The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
>>> skill-level in that area:
>>> 
>>> 	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 <https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740>
>> 
>> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
>> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are 
>> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going 
>> non-parallel.
> 
> That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
> from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
> skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
> etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
> to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
> by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
> energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
> for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.
> 
> Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
> we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
> how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
> easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.
> 
> It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
> crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
> But I have no idea how well it works.

The typical quartz resonator is operating in a mode that involves 
more than a surface wave. Much of the effort involves not just that
mode but getting rid of the vast number of similar modes that can 
pop up. As you add structure complexity, you don’t just want to “improve”
the main mode. You also want to be sure you don’t encourage any 
others …..

That all said, there are indeed people out there who *do* understand how
this all works. There aren’t a lot of them, but they are out there. From what
I’ve seen, the supply of “those who know” actually exceeds the industrial 
demand for what they know. Like it or not, precision quartz resonators is
*not* a growth field. 

Bob


> Considering that it is easier
> to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
> to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
> doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures). 
> 
> 
> 
> 				Attila Kinali
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Mon Feb  5 10:31:38 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 07:31:38 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals
In-Reply-To: <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>
 <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <35533ddf-df46-3078-3ae7-e45fd7caf239@earthlink.net>

On 2/5/18 5:54 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>>> The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
>>> skill-level in that area:
>>>
>>> 	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 <https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740>
>>
>> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
>> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are
>> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going
>> non-parallel.
> 
> That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
> from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
> skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
> etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
> to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
> by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
> energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
> for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.
> 
> Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
> we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
> how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
> easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.
> 
> It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
> crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
> But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
> to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
> to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
> doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures).


Follow the money - or lack thereof - Folks are happy with the existing 
technology - If I'm flying a science mission that needs a space 
qualified Ultra Stable Oscillator - I've already budgeted my several 
million dollars, claiming that I'll just use what we already know how to 
build, and I spend no more proposal pages talking about it.  I certainly 
am not going to say "instead of spending $1M/oscillator for my 2 
oscillators, I'm going to spend $5M on an experimental process to change 
how the resonator is made, and by the way, it might not work"

Would using ion milling and other modern fabrication techniques lead to 
an oscillator with *significantly* better performance or *significantly* 
lower cost?

For those users for whom this is important, research focuses on looking 
for another qualitatively different way to get there - That's sort of 
what the CSAC and the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) are about - the ion 
trap clock for DSAC gives you long term performance BETTER than a USO. 
Although probably not at a lower cost, yet, there is potential for it to 
be so.
The CSAC gives you "good accuracy at low power", compared to an OCXO - 
less than 1/10th the power.



From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb  5 10:43:38 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:43:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Etching of quartz crystals
In-Reply-To: <35533ddf-df46-3078-3ae7-e45fd7caf239@earthlink.net>
References: <AABPHKPSYAC7LEWS@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
 <20180203230201.562371172f5ebc4f0fe5270a@kinali.ch>
 <38AF8AA4-E527-4941-B834-ECFE0D1B82AD@n1k.org>
 <31183984-ed9d-60e1-6528-76dfde5f3f27@rubidium.dyndns.org>
 <97745.1517700676@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <0f9a9acc-4cdf-780f-e633-6162622641e3@earthlink.net>
 <97913.1517703869@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <EE82321B-3176-4D0D-B0BC-64625DCE8627@n1k.org>
 <857306476.638946.1517706947588@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <CB80B339-905F-4AA8-9702-12F39DA85B00@n1k.org>
 <480971424.644410.1517715556849@webmail.xtra.co.nz>
 <478.1517746382@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <9400D694-4458-443F-97B5-97486353AEC6@n1k.org>
 <20180205145451.6ddf4bf861865b54de6dc25d@kinali.ch>
 <35533ddf-df46-3078-3ae7-e45fd7caf239@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <F083A473-50F8-43EA-A338-103C1727D36F@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:31 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 2/5/18 5:54 AM, Attila Kinali wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:21:54 -0500
>> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>> The images on this page gives a good impression about the current
>>>> skill-level in that area:
>>>> 
>>>> 	https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740 <https://www.azonano.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=2740>
>>> 
>>> The gotcha is shown in the pictures. First point is that they are etching *very*
>>> small features. A 5 MHz 3rd overtone blank is way thicker than what they are
>>> playing with. The second issue is that even at small scale the walls are going
>>> non-parallel.
>> That's exactly the issue here. While SAW resonators benefit quite a lot
>> from the processing skills learned from semiconductor fabrication, these
>> skills do not translate into BAW manufacturing. SAW resonators are built
>> etching or depositing small features ontop of a SiO2 wafer that is supposed
>> to be as flat as possible. On the other hand BAW oscillators are 3D structures
>> by themselves. They are lens shaped (thus not flat) to keep the oscillation
>> energy trapped in the center of the slap, thus allowing the edges to be used
>> for mounting/contacting, with minimal damping of the oscillation.
>> Yes, the shapes are simple. But not only because that's the only shapes
>> we know how to build, but also because these shapes allow us to calculate
>> how the crystal will oscialate and because the simpler the structure the
>> easier it is to build it with high precision and accuracy.
>> It would be possible to use edging of surface structures into the
>> crystal to form a Bragg reflector (instead of the lense shape).
>> But I have no idea how well it works. Considering that it is easier
>> to build a slap that is flat and then etching structures on it, than
>> to form a 3D structure, I wonder why I have not read about anyone
>> doing exactly that (beside for SAW structures).
> 
> 
> Follow the money - or lack thereof - Folks are happy with the existing technology - If I'm flying a science mission that needs a space qualified Ultra Stable Oscillator - I've already budgeted my several million dollars, claiming that I'll just use what we already know how to build, and I spend no more proposal pages talking about it.  I certainly am not going to say "instead of spending $1M/oscillator for my 2 oscillators, I'm going to spend $5M on an experimental process to change how the resonator is made, and by the way, it might not work"
> 
> Would using ion milling and other modern fabrication techniques lead to an oscillator with *significantly* better performance or *significantly* lower cost?

Consider that a reasonable budget for just the gear to finish a precision resonator (not the fab side) is 
in the $3 to $5 million range these days. If you include the fab process, the question becomes “how 
far back” you go in that process. Do you start with growing the synthetic quartz? If so, the budget just
goot a *lot* bigger. 

People have indeed experimented a lot with alternative fab processes. There are alternatives out there.
So far, the precision end of things still *looks* a lot like it used to. If you scratch under the surface it’s
vastly different than it was 10 or 20 years ago. It’s nothing at all like it was in the 70’s, let alone back 
in the 50’. 

Bob


> 
> For those users for whom this is important, research focuses on looking for another qualitatively different way to get there - That's sort of what the CSAC and the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) are about - the ion trap clock for DSAC gives you long term performance BETTER than a USO. Although probably not at a lower cost, yet, there is potential for it to be so.
> The CSAC gives you "good accuracy at low power", compared to an OCXO - less than 1/10th the power.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From w1bkr at aol.com  Mon Feb  5 11:19:11 2018
From: w1bkr at aol.com (Bill Baker)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:19:11 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
Message-ID: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>


I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?

Bill, w1bkr at aol.com

From aa5am at vntx.net  Mon Feb  5 12:18:50 2018
From: aa5am at vntx.net (Scott Armstrong)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:18:50 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
References: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
Message-ID: <CADrMq1GKmHiobVvLjwe6gkO64dZ2fLOCOmrPeorAq5rstzCPQw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Graham,

I am listening to one of those "time pips"  on 30m right now. (1714 utc
02/05/2018).
Frequency is 10.105.

The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.

I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018  about the same frequency but
later in the day.

-Scott AA5AM
EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX

On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:

> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>
> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>
> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>
> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
> North America.
>
> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>
> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
> researching GPS backup systems.
>
> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
> HF like this?
>
> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jerry at hanler.com  Mon Feb  5 12:33:57 2018
From: jerry at hanler.com (Jerry Hancock)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:33:57 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <CADrMq1GKmHiobVvLjwe6gkO64dZ2fLOCOmrPeorAq5rstzCPQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
 <CADrMq1GKmHiobVvLjwe6gkO64dZ2fLOCOmrPeorAq5rstzCPQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4588EDD9-729D-41A0-846E-CAB02E77ADC1@hanler.com>

Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.”  What the heck was that?

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
jerry at hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong <aa5am at vntx.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> I am listening to one of those "time pips"  on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> 02/05/2018).
> Frequency is 10.105.
> 
> The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> 
> I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018  about the same frequency but
> later in the day.
> 
> -Scott AA5AM
> EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> 
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
> 
>> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
>> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>> 
>> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>> 
>> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
>> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>> 
>> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
>> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
>> North America.
>> 
>> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
>> amateur radio operator playing around  but it might not be, the amateur
>> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
>> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>> 
>> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
>> researching GPS backup systems.
>> 
>> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
>> HF like this?
>> 
>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kc0wjn at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 12:39:46 2018
From: kc0wjn at gmail.com (Dave Daniel)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:39:46 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <5A7896E2.8020402@gmail.com>

Hi, Bill.

I have three GC-1000s, one unbuilt and two built. Both of the built 
radios have stopped showing a time display. I haven't had a chance to 
figure out what happened to them. I live very close to Fort Collins, CO.

I experience power failures fairly often and when my clocks were working 
they used to take a very long time (on the order of a day) to re-sync 
after power came back on. I am wondering if the power failures might 
have damaged my radios in some way.

Have you double-checked the settings on your radio against the manual, 
and have you done any experiments to see if the receiving conditions 
where you have your clock located haven't changed or are not conducive 
to reception?

DaveD

On 2/5/2018 9:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:
> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>
> Bill, w1bkr at aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus


From ka2weu at aol.com  Mon Feb  5 12:48:07 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Ulrich Rohde)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 12:48:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <4588EDD9-729D-41A0-846E-CAB02E77ADC1@hanler.com>
Message-ID: <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>

I have heard similar time signals at 18.1 MHz.
 
73 de N1UL
 
In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry at hanler.com writes:

 
 Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
jerry at hanler.com
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong <aa5am at vntx.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi Graham,
> 
> I am listening to one of those "time pips" on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> 02/05/2018).
> Frequency is 10.105.
> 
> The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> 
> I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018 about the same frequency but
> later in the day.
> 
> -Scott AA5AM
> EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> 
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
> 
>> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a number
>> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
>> 
>> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
>> 
>> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked to
>> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
>> 
>> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with all
>> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
>> North America.
>> 
>> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
>> amateur radio operator playing around but it might not be, the amateur
>> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
>> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
>> 
>> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
>> researching GPS backup systems.
>> 
>> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
>> HF like this?
>> 
>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From eric at scace.org  Mon Feb  5 13:09:30 2018
From: eric at scace.org (Eric Scace)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:09:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <DFCB1E61-5122-4E22-BBDD-549EC3DEABD3@scace.org>

This is a numbers station <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station>. — Eric K3NA

> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry at hanler.com <mailto:jerry at hanler.com> writes:
> 
> 
> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Jerry

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From AI.egrps+tn at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 13:11:12 2018
From: AI.egrps+tn at gmail.com (Andy)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 13:11:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <4588EDD9-729D-41A0-846E-CAB02E77ADC1@hanler.com>
References: <8bc917f0-72a7-50ed-159b-fb77eed5b219@aei.ca>
 <CADrMq1GKmHiobVvLjwe6gkO64dZ2fLOCOmrPeorAq5rstzCPQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4588EDD9-729D-41A0-846E-CAB02E77ADC1@hanler.com>
Message-ID: <CAN_saP+208s-RZVqUHw1moS_OYidir1-fOnHJD+GOEgBAOgXyQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on
> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing,
> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.”  What the heck was that?
>

That sounds like a variation on the well-known (or maybe not so well known)
'numbers station'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station

Andy

From jerry at hanler.com  Mon Feb  5 13:12:33 2018
From: jerry at hanler.com (Jerry Hancock)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 10:12:33 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <DFCB1E61-5122-4E22-BBDD-549EC3DEABD3@scace.org>
References: <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>
 <DFCB1E61-5122-4E22-BBDD-549EC3DEABD3@scace.org>
Message-ID: <FEDB599D-29A6-49F3-972D-01FDB00D129D@hanler.com>

I saw the movie with Cusack.  Wondered the same.  Probably just ordering toilet paper…

Regards,

Jerry


Jerry Hancock
jerry at hanler.com <mailto:jerry at hanler.com>
(415) 215-3779

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 10:09 AM, Eric Scace <eric at scace.org <mailto:eric at scace.org>> wrote:
> 
> This is a numbers station <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Numbers_station>. — Eric K3NA
> 
>> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, jerry at hanler.com <mailto:jerry at hanler.com> writes:
>> 
>>  
>> Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing, “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Jerry
> 


From wigglepig at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 13:01:46 2018
From: wigglepig at gmail.com (Jason Gardner)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 18:01:46 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] unidentified HF time pips
In-Reply-To: <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <4588EDD9-729D-41A0-846E-CAB02E77ADC1@hanler.com>
 <161671506fb-1710-f7fa3@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <CAJbwgxr8HsEP2rai8-V_A9=my3W0NFeCDYJkFTevrogyYehpxQ@mail.gmail.com>

As previously mentioned, those frequencies are regular centres of activity
for some of the Amateur digital modes; they are all within Amateur Radio
allocations.

As for Horsefly, I shall wait to see if anyone can correctly identify it! ;)

Jason G7RUX

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 at 17:48, Ulrich Rohde via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> I have heard similar time signals at 18.1 MHz.
>
> 73 de N1UL
>
> In a message dated 2/5/2018 12:34:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jerry at hanler.com writes:
>
>
>  Ha, so I was jumping around looking for the same and found a guy on
> 15.016Mhz running through random characters phonetically and then signing,
> “this completes X characters, Horsefly out.” What the heck was that?
>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
>
> Jerry Hancock
> jerry at hanler.com
> (415) 215-3779
>
> > On Feb 5, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Scott Armstrong <aa5am at vntx.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Graham,
> >
> > I am listening to one of those "time pips" on 30m right now. (1714 utc
> > 02/05/2018).
> > Frequency is 10.105.
> >
> > The best I can tell with my calibrated ears and eyes, it appears to be in
> > sync with WWV. Signal strength is about a s6-7.
> >
> > I also heard this on Saturday 02/03/2018 about the same frequency but
> > later in the day.
> >
> > -Scott AA5AM
> > EM13sg - Blue Ridge TX
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 4:31 PM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> For some time there have been occasional reports of time pips on a
> number
> >> HF frequencies other than the well known CHU, WWV, (etc...) signals.
> >>
> >> For example 10140, 10145, 7040, 7065, 7105, 7120 kHz and likely others.
> >>
> >> The pips are approximately 15 to 16ms in duration and appear to locked
> to
> >> UTC but unlike WWV or CHU they are continuous minute by minute.
> >>
> >> Assuming the pips are synchronized to UTC, simply time of arrival with
> all
> >> of its issues on HF plus signal strength seems to indicated a source in
> >> North America.
> >>
> >> The frequencies and time of activity might indicate that it is some
> >> amateur radio operator playing around but it might not be, the amateur
> >> 10MHz frequencies is shared with other users. The pips seem to be
> >> transmitted at a fairly high power level.
> >>
> >> I know there is ongoing testing of eLoran and other initiatives
> >> researching GPS backup systems.
> >>
> >> Anyone aware of any group doing any such testing which might be found on
> >> HF like this?
> >>
> >> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> >> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 14:05:10 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:05:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <5A7896E2.8020402@gmail.com>
References: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
 <5A7896E2.8020402@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAicGjx__=VdWg_vY8_o=a-rSo9CnH2qDc3cCK65AeC9pQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bill
I see the manual is online for the GC1000.
The 1KHZ tone decoder may be suspect in that its drifted off frequency. Its
a little ne-567 chip with a pot.
ne 567s were never all that great...
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Dave Daniel <kc0wjn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi, Bill.
>
> I have three GC-1000s, one unbuilt and two built. Both of the built radios
> have stopped showing a time display. I haven't had a chance to figure out
> what happened to them. I live very close to Fort Collins, CO.
>
> I experience power failures fairly often and when my clocks were working
> they used to take a very long time (on the order of a day) to re-sync after
> power came back on. I am wondering if the power failures might have damaged
> my radios in some way.
>
> Have you double-checked the settings on your radio against the manual, and
> have you done any experiments to see if the receiving conditions where you
> have your clock located haven't changed or are not conducive to reception?
>
> DaveD
>
>
> On 2/5/2018 9:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:
>
>> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but
>> not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes
>> freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>>
>> Bill, w1bkr at aol.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From brooke at pacific.net  Mon Feb  5 14:48:41 2018
From: brooke at pacific.net (Brooke Clarke)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 11:48:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <9ec6fe1e-5ca0-1fa8-bbca-528e776a02c7@pacific.net>

Hi: Bill

Mine needed pretty much all the electrolytic caps replaced.
http://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml

-- 
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------
> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>
> Bill, w1bkr at aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 14:52:59 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 14:52:59 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <9ec6fe1e-5ca0-1fa8-bbca-528e776a02c7@pacific.net>
References: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
 <9ec6fe1e-5ca0-1fa8-bbca-528e776a02c7@pacific.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjLxWB-=kAhbhH9YO348eamLmwg_bEdGH_FcQ1xqS0jtg@mail.gmail.com>

I just realized there is also a 100 Hz decoder also u402.
Both use the typical open air 1 turn pots. They get cranky with age.
Regards
Paul.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 2:48 PM, Brooke Clarke <brooke at pacific.net> wrote:

> Hi: Bill
>
> Mine needed pretty much all the electrolytic caps replaced.
> http://prc68.com/I/HeathkitGC1000.shtml
>
> --
> Have Fun,
>
> Brooke Clarke
> http://www.PRC68.com
> http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
>
>> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but
>> not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes
>> freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>>
>> Bill, w1bkr at aol.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From alexpcs at ieee.org  Mon Feb  5 18:00:19 2018
From: alexpcs at ieee.org (Alexander Pummer)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 15:00:19 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <16166c39994-1718-5c0e3@webjas-vad140.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <4a11c08d-799a-4ee9-d4b8-d7dcf1615001@ieee.org>

Hi Bill,

where are you located? since something like that, would be a perfect 
"therapy" for me, because I am always buying "all kind of junk" [my 
wife's opinion, but it is very close to the reality ] and after I fixed 
it and played with played with them don't know what to do with it...and 
it is true, well, if you are not to fare from me-- because of the 
shipping costs --- I am in the Bay Area in California, I could fix it 
for you

73

KJ6UHN

Alex


On 2/5/2018 8:19 AM, Bill Baker via time-nuts wrote:
> I own a Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Clock.  It's in terrific shape but not used for many years.  It has stopped locking up to WWV and sometimes freezes up.  Can any of our "nuts" repair it?  Anyone want to buy it?
>
> Bill, w1bkr at aol.com
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Mon Feb  5 22:33:59 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:33:59 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to indicate
it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in a
fancy package. That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas I
have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb  5 23:03:49 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:03:49 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4FE4049201614F5F91ACD56DCC1BFD71@pc52>

> testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb  5 23:17:06 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 20:17:06 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C35D4E139FE040618AA1300AC6BE3D79@pc52>

oops, sorry for the misfire.

> I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it.

For $99 I would take the risk to damage it... Or find someone with x-ray gear and have a peak inside. Or take it with you on your next plane flight and grab a photo of the TSA monitor as you pass through.

> My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?

That's a good question. It all depends on what you're using it for. If you're a mm survey kind of guy then mix that antenna with half a dozen name-brand antennae that you already own and trust. See how it stacks up in real-time or post-processing benchmarks. I'm a fan of measurement more than specs, so collect as much data as you can and share with us.

If you're a time-nut it's more complicated. It's possible you don't have anywhere near the kind of equipment that can detect sub-10 ns sort of bias or wander or noise. And then there are issues of orientation, elevation, linearity, thermal stability, etc. If it's not in the NGS database be suspicious. Ref:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2018-January/108519.html

/tvb


From djl at montana.com  Mon Feb  5 23:26:14 2018
From: djl at montana.com (djl)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 21:26:14 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dde5f5af7d9c0231c51c7e27a7796b17@blackfoot.net>

There's a picture of the guts in the ebay description...it's a dual 
patch antenna!
the patches seem to be trimmed to get a pattern.

On 2018-02-05 20:33, John Green wrote:
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to 
> indicate
> it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in 
> a
> fancy package. That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas 
> I
> have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
> testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there 
> any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb  6 06:48:34 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:48:34 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180206124834.d992ad89d631da3b48ebfaa3@kinali.ch>

Moin,

On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:33:59 -0600
John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to indicate
> it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in a
> fancy package. 

It actually is. The fourth picture in the ebay listing shows that it's
a dual, stacked patch antenna with a 4 point (0°, 90°, 180°, 270°)
excitation using fiberglass as substrate. I am not sure I would trust
the +/-2mm phase center error, but it's probably quite decent.
But advertising it as "high precision" or even "chocke ring antenna
functionality without out the size or weight" is an outright lie. 
For one, they are too cheap to use nylon screws instead of
metal screws in the antenna, which will lead to distortions in the
radiation pattern. For another the fiberglass/epoxy substrate is going
to change its dielectric constant with humidity, which will inevitably
lead to changes in its resonance and radiation pattern. Third, the
choke ring is to minimize influence of reflections close to or below
the antenna horizon. This antenna does not have anything that comes even
close to provide this feature.

Judging from the meager information on the ebay lsting, it's most likely
a Shenzen Beitan 7151[1] or a 7201[2] ("data"sheets attached).

BTW: You can get the 7151 for 75USD and free sheeping on aliexpress.

> That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas I
> have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
> testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
> without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?

If you have a known-good reference antenna and two receivers that can
record the carrier phase data of the two antennas, then it's relatively
easy to compare them (although there is quite a bit of math involved
and you probably eed to write the software yourself, as i am not aware
of any publicly, for hobbyists available software package).

			Attila Kinali

[1] http://www.sz-beitian.com/ProductsDetail?product_id=53
[2] http://www.sz-beitian.com/ProductsDetail?product_id=52

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
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From g8kbvdave at googlemail.com  Tue Feb  6 07:29:46 2018
From: g8kbvdave at googlemail.com (Dave B)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:29:46 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.44.1517917730.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.44.1517917730.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <3cfef0c5-51ae-b079-15ac-1f46ca26db41@googlemail.com>


> Bill
> I see the manual is online for the GC1000.
> The 1KHZ tone decoder may be suspect in that its drifted off frequency. Its
> a little ne-567 chip with a pot.
> ne 567s were never all that great...
> Regards
> Paul

------------------------------------------------------------------------

567's are not too bad, not "precision", but not bad.

Small pot's are not great for long term stability either, especially if
the track/wiper is exposed.

73.

Dave.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 08:54:23 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:54:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <20180206124834.d992ad89d631da3b48ebfaa3@kinali.ch>
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180206124834.d992ad89d631da3b48ebfaa3@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <627398DF-84A9-486A-B237-4C4D91A7B0BC@n1k.org>

Hi

One gotcha (if the data sheets are correct) is going to be the supply voltage.
We normally stay away from 12V antennas because TBolt’s put out 5V. In the
case of a survey antenna, 12V is what most of the gear puts out. I don’t know
of any L1 / L2 gear that puts out 5 rather than 12V ….

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:48 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> Moin,
> 
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2018 21:33:59 -0600
> John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
>> 
>> Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs. They seem to indicate
>> it is as good as a choke ring antenna. I suspect it is just a patch in a
>> fancy package. 
> 
> It actually is. The fourth picture in the ebay listing shows that it's
> a dual, stacked patch antenna with a 4 point (0°, 90°, 180°, 270°)
> excitation using fiberglass as substrate. I am not sure I would trust
> the +/-2mm phase center error, but it's probably quite decent.
> But advertising it as "high precision" or even "chocke ring antenna
> functionality without out the size or weight" is an outright lie. 
> For one, they are too cheap to use nylon screws instead of
> metal screws in the antenna, which will lead to distortions in the
> radiation pattern. For another the fiberglass/epoxy substrate is going
> to change its dielectric constant with humidity, which will inevitably
> lead to changes in its resonance and radiation pattern. Third, the
> choke ring is to minimize influence of reflections close to or below
> the antenna horizon. This antenna does not have anything that comes even
> close to provide this feature.
> 
> Judging from the meager information on the ebay lsting, it's most likely
> a Shenzen Beitan 7151[1] or a 7201[2] ("data"sheets attached).
> 
> BTW: You can get the 7151 for 75USD and free sheeping on aliexpress.
> 
>> That is what the Leica and Trimble survey grade antennas I
>> have contain anyway. I bought one but haven't had the chance to do any
>> testing. I couldn't figure out how to get to the insides to take a peek
>> without damaging it. My antenna testing abilities are pretty feeble.
>> Mostly, I will just compare it to the Leica and Trimble to see how many
>> satellites it sees and look at position wander of the uBlox. Is there any
>> simple way to judge the quality of a GPS antenna?
> 
> If you have a known-good reference antenna and two receivers that can
> record the carrier phase data of the two antennas, then it's relatively
> easy to compare them (although there is quite a bit of math involved
> and you probably eed to write the software yourself, as i am not aware
> of any publicly, for hobbyists available software package).
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> [1] http://www.sz-beitian.com/ProductsDetail?product_id=53
> [2] http://www.sz-beitian.com/ProductsDetail?product_id=52
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> <HG-GOYH7151.jpg><HG-GOYH7201.jpg>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb  6 09:02:52 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:02:52 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <627398DF-84A9-486A-B237-4C4D91A7B0BC@n1k.org>
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180206124834.d992ad89d631da3b48ebfaa3@kinali.ch>
 <627398DF-84A9-486A-B237-4C4D91A7B0BC@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180206150252.bcbba5bc1f7a20d6d6bdf47b@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 08:54:23 -0500
Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> One gotcha (if the data sheets are correct) is going to be the supply voltage.
> We normally stay away from 12V antennas because TBolt’s put out 5V. In the
> case of a survey antenna, 12V is what most of the gear puts out. I don’t know
> of any L1 / L2 gear that puts out 5 rather than 12V ….

Well, that's at least a very easy modification. Just open up the connection
between the bias-T and the LNA and insert some LM1117 or better an TPS7A45xx.

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From timenuts at rudius.net  Tue Feb  6 06:15:17 2018
From: timenuts at rudius.net (Bo Hansen)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 12:15:17 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] =?utf-8?q?_Anyone_have_experience_with_this_antenna?=
	=?utf-8?q?=3F?=
Message-ID: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>

Hi

Besides the RF characteristics it may also be worth considering the quality of the plastics used. Over time water ingress may become an issue. Fours years after the installation of a CN brand antenna, sourced locally so probably not counterfeit either, we had to replace it at OZ7IGY www.oz7igy.dk

RF wise 42 dB of gain IS an issue. Again at OZ7IGY, with 12 carriers in the air especially 13 cm and 23 cm, blocking and IMD were an issue before we mounted a BPF. I have taken apart the above mentioned antenna, a Motorola antenna and an eBay "hockey puck" antenna. The best design was clearly the Motorola one because it had a BPF after the pre-amp - probably because it was designed by RF competent people too. Each of the other ones had two FETs/MMICs in series and then a BPF. Of cause if no nearby carriers are in the air it may be less of an issue.

So designing a really good antenna and pre-amp may be a business opportunity. There are many hi IP3 MMICs available designed for GPS and the like purposes. SAW BPFs with <1 dB loss are available fairly cheap so one before the FET/MMIC with a 1 dB NF is the way to go. A DIY radome using standard materials from any hardware shop is attached.

Bo, OZ2M

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From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 08:08:42 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:08:42 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+RbNhAfs7qiHvoHzYDtm7B0ot7B4VcRHUmX00p00Qb=g@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the responses. It looks similar to but not exactly like the two
antennas referenced. They say the preamp is 3 to 5.5 volts, whereas the
eBay antenna says its preamp is good from 3.3 to 18 volts, indicating I can
run it off 12 volts. Regarding the internals, I must have somehow missed
the photo which clearly shows it to be a patch antenna. It looks pretty
similar to the Trimble I asked about recently, inside, that is. That
Trimble had been dropped from a great height. The nylon screws that hold
the actual antenna assembly had all been broken. I ordered new ones and
replaced them. Disassembly was easy, reassembly not so much. Mine was made
to have the groundplane, but doesn't have it. I suspect that since I am not
doing surveying, it won't matter all that much. I bought an adapter for the
5/8 by 11 thread it uses and have a pvc pipe mount ready to go up. My
location is not ideal. It will be atop a 40 foot Rohn 25 tower, but there
are tall trees nearby. Since my Z3801 died, I don't have much of a GPSDO to
use the antenna with. Just a couple of T bolts and some kind of postcard
sized unit I need to build a housing and power supply for. Still, enough to
experiment with.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 09:05:12 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:05:12 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <3cfef0c5-51ae-b079-15ac-1f46ca26db41@googlemail.com>
References: <mailman.44.1517917730.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <3cfef0c5-51ae-b079-15ac-1f46ca26db41@googlemail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjR6GaCHTnMDnEHTx1bX=4X2mg+7TZLDmL0GSn0uycyEg@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly they are the small open air pots.
Just one possibility along with the other good suggestions mentioned.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Dave B via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

>
> > Bill
> > I see the manual is online for the GC1000.
> > The 1KHZ tone decoder may be suspect in that its drifted off frequency.
> Its
> > a little ne-567 chip with a pot.
> > ne 567s were never all that great...
> > Regards
> > Paul
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> 567's are not too bad, not "precision", but not bad.
>
> Small pot's are not great for long term stability either, especially if
> the track/wiper is exposed.
>
> 73.
>
> Dave.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 09:18:24 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 09:18:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+RbNhAfs7qiHvoHzYDtm7B0ot7B4VcRHUmX00p00Qb=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+RbNhAfs7qiHvoHzYDtm7B0ot7B4VcRHUmX00p00Qb=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8DC4AF87-5E8B-4FD2-819F-3C77388FE752@n1k.org>

Hi

There is no need for something this exotic for L1 only reception. It *is*
nice to have Glonass L1, but that’s about the extent of how fancy you 
need to go. 

As noted in another post, the preamp gain probably is pretty high
on this antenna. That’s a standard that goes back to the early days of
Trimble survey GPS gear. It’s great if you happen to want to drive a 
32 port resistive splitter for your collection of GPSDO’s. If you have more
modest needs for splitting, pads would be a very good idea. 

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 8:08 AM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the responses. It looks similar to but not exactly like the two
> antennas referenced. They say the preamp is 3 to 5.5 volts, whereas the
> eBay antenna says its preamp is good from 3.3 to 18 volts, indicating I can
> run it off 12 volts. Regarding the internals, I must have somehow missed
> the photo which clearly shows it to be a patch antenna. It looks pretty
> similar to the Trimble I asked about recently, inside, that is. That
> Trimble had been dropped from a great height. The nylon screws that hold
> the actual antenna assembly had all been broken. I ordered new ones and
> replaced them. Disassembly was easy, reassembly not so much. Mine was made
> to have the groundplane, but doesn't have it. I suspect that since I am not
> doing surveying, it won't matter all that much. I bought an adapter for the
> 5/8 by 11 thread it uses and have a pvc pipe mount ready to go up. My
> location is not ideal. It will be atop a 40 foot Rohn 25 tower, but there
> are tall trees nearby. Since my Z3801 died, I don't have much of a GPSDO to
> use the antenna with. Just a couple of T bolts and some kind of postcard
> sized unit I need to build a housing and power supply for. Still, enough to
> experiment with.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 10:17:05 2018
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:17:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Heathkit GC 1000 Most Accurate Question
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjR6GaCHTnMDnEHTx1bX=4X2mg+7TZLDmL0GSn0uycyEg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.44.1517917730.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <3cfef0c5-51ae-b079-15ac-1f46ca26db41@googlemail.com>
 <CAD2JfAjR6GaCHTnMDnEHTx1bX=4X2mg+7TZLDmL0GSn0uycyEg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2EBC5C2B-58A5-4566-8938-41A06A6CC930@gmail.com>

I've got one as well replaced that pot with 10 turn pot and electrolytic replacement

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Feb 6, 2018, at 9:05 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:

Exactly they are the small open air pots.
Just one possibility along with the other good suggestions mentioned.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 7:29 AM, Dave B via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> 
>> Bill
>> I see the manual is online for the GC1000.
>> The 1KHZ tone decoder may be suspect in that its drifted off frequency.
> Its
>> a little ne-567 chip with a pot.
>> ne 567s were never all that great...
>> Regards
>> Paul
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 567's are not too bad, not "precision", but not bad.
> 
> Small pot's are not great for long term stability either, especially if
> the track/wiper is exposed.
> 
> 73.
> 
> Dave.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 12:14:07 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:14:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
Message-ID: <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>

Hi

There are “cell site” specific GPS antennas on the market. Panasonic has had one out 
for quite a while. I’m sure there are several others. 

One issue with doing any sort of “cover” for a precision antenna is distorting it’s pattern. 
Plastic (or whatever you use) will have different properties than air. A path through a blob
of “not air” will change the effective path length. That impacts the timing and thus the 
navigation solution. If you are worried about 2mm sort of pattern accuracy, things get 
tricky. Early on, there was a big “throw out the radomes push when this was first noticed.

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:15 AM, Bo Hansen <timenuts at rudius.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Besides the RF characteristics it may also be worth considering the quality of the plastics used. Over time water ingress may become an issue. Fours years after the installation of a CN brand antenna, sourced locally so probably not counterfeit either, we had to replace it at OZ7IGY www.oz7igy.dk
> 
> RF wise 42 dB of gain IS an issue. Again at OZ7IGY, with 12 carriers in the air especially 13 cm and 23 cm, blocking and IMD were an issue before we mounted a BPF. I have taken apart the above mentioned antenna, a Motorola antenna and an eBay "hockey puck" antenna. The best design was clearly the Motorola one because it had a BPF after the pre-amp - probably because it was designed by RF competent people too. Each of the other ones had two FETs/MMICs in series and then a BPF. Of cause if no nearby carriers are in the air it may be less of an issue.
> 
> So designing a really good antenna and pre-amp may be a business opportunity. There are many hi IP3 MMICs available designed for GPS and the like purposes. SAW BPFs with <1 dB loss are available fairly cheap so one before the FET/MMIC with a 1 dB NF is the way to go. A DIY radome using standard materials from any hardware shop is attached.
> 
> Bo, OZ2M
> 
> <GPSAnt_DIY_Radome.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com  Tue Feb  6 12:43:35 2018
From: david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com (Van Horn, David)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:43:35 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CY4PR0401MB3570B3BF4128C7BB655E78B3E0FD0@CY4PR0401MB3570.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

In a previous job, I used plastics to "lens" antennas at 2.4 GHz, shaping the patterns for more desirable results. 
XFDTD is a great software package for this application but it is expensive.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 13:33:54 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 13:33:54 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <1517937945087.10529.5230@webmail6>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <1517937945087.10529.5230@webmail6>
Message-ID: <367991DE-E34A-4B40-A74A-55DC0E00B2DB@n1k.org>

Hi

The microwave trick is fine for working out if it is a lossy material. Unfortunately 
what gets you in this case is more than just loss. A coax cable has core material 
that will (usually) do quite well in a microwave. None the less, the delay through 
the coax is different than through air ( = the coax has a velocity factor). 

Bob


> On Feb 6, 2018, at 12:25 PM, Bo Hansen <timenuts at rudius.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Indeed a radome may distort the antenna pattern. In teh case of DIY projects the trick that most can apply is to take a piece of the radome material and put it into a microwave own.  If it doesn't get hot it is OK for most DIY cases.
> 
> Infinion have some nice GNSS MMICs e.g. BGA924N6 http://demo.21dianyuan.com/infineon/download/download_down/id/40/type/cn <http://demo.21dianyuan.com/infineon/download/download_down/id/40/type/cn>
> 
> Bo


From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 13:40:49 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:40:49 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>

OK so it's not the microsecond or nanosecond stuff that much of this list
is about, but I've been running an experiment for the past few days
gathering data on how well (or otherwise) a pair of cheap EM2S radio
receiver modules receive the MSF radio signal. I've been trying to see if I
could design a decoding algorithm that would be more noise-tolerant than
the algorithms I've seen out in the wild.

Details are on my github, and the results are presented in a paper -

https://github.com/deirdreobyrne/MSF-EM2S/blob/master/paper.pdf

From timenuts at rudius.net  Tue Feb  6 12:25:45 2018
From: timenuts at rudius.net (Bo Hansen)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 18:25:45 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts]
 =?utf-8?q?Anyone_have_experience_with_this_antenna=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <1517937945087.10529.5230@webmail6>

Hi

Indeed a radome may distort the antenna pattern. In teh case of DIY projects the trick that most can apply is to take a piece of the radome material and put it into a microwave own. If it doesn't get hot it is OK for most DIY cases.

Infinion have some nice GNSS MMICs e.g. BGA924N6 <http://demo.21dianyuan.com/infineon/download/download_down/id/40/type/cn>

Bo


From artgodwin at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 14:36:17 2018
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 19:36:17 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALiMYru9FDmuOOHGWkOxp7o8ccpNWb_4vOUU0BNLcCsSjKcZLg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Deirdre,

I'd like to repeat your measurement at a different location (eastern
england).

What did you use to capture the data and write it as a vcd file ?

-adrian


On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:40 PM, Deirdre O'Byrne <deirdre.dub at gmail.com>
wrote:

> OK so it's not the microsecond or nanosecond stuff that much of this list
> is about, but I've been running an experiment for the past few days
> gathering data on how well (or otherwise) a pair of cheap EM2S radio
> receiver modules receive the MSF radio signal. I've been trying to see if I
> could design a decoding algorithm that would be more noise-tolerant than
> the algorithms I've seen out in the wild.
>
> Details are on my github, and the results are presented in a paper -
>
> https://github.com/deirdreobyrne/MSF-EM2S/blob/master/paper.pdf
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb  6 14:37:22 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 19:37:22 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ at mail.gmail.com>
, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:

>I've been trying to see if I could design a decoding algorithm that
>would be more noise-tolerant than the algorithms I've seen out in
>the wild.

You can: I baptised it "the blame algoritm".

The trick is not to try to accept pulses as valid but to try to
throw out pulses which are impossible.

Imagine you have a 120 second long shift-register, and you feed
your received pulses into it.

Then try brute force, for every one of the newest 60 positions if
that can be the start of a minute or not, by testing all the
constraints you can think of, and there are surprisingly many.

Some are obvious, the bits encoding the hour cannot contain "39",
but that is a remarkable weak filter that seldom kicks in.

A much stronger filter is that the bits encoding the hour must be
the same as in the previous minute *unless* minutes were 59 in the
previous minute *and* zero in this minute.

If you count it up, that is a strong and very peculiar relationship
on all the hour-bits and all the minutes-bits and if even one single
of them are wrong, you can definitively discard that theory for the
start of the minute.

A similar thing holds for the date bits, the time in the
previous minute must be 23:59:59 and in this 00:00:00 for
there to be any difference between the dates, and even
then, only a small number of possible changes in the date
bits are valid.

If you look in http://phk.freebsd.dk/phkrel/NTPns.20080902.tgz
you will find a file called dcf77_blame.c with my code,
here is a couple of the simpler tests:

        /* LSB of minutes must be different from previous minute */
        j = ip->shiftprev[(offset + 21) % 60];
        if (j * ip->shiftreg[(offset + 21) % 60] > 0)
                FAIL((why, " 0"));

        /*
         * If the LSB of minutes was '1' in previous minute
         * the next higher bit must have changed, if it was
         * a '0' it must not.
         */
        if (j *
            ip->shiftreg[(offset + 22) % 60] *
            ip->shiftprev[(offset + 22) % 60] > 0)
                FAIL((why, " 1"));

When using this algorithm, missing pulses is almost a
non-issue up to around 40% of them missing, and even
in an enviroment like that, it is not uncommon to see
the algorithm lock on to the minute in about 34 seconds
and know the full time in less than 3 minutes.

If you make your pulse width discriminator *really* selective,
which you might as well, you can "blacklist" disproved
minute positions for the next many minutes as the
risk of a '1' and '0' being confused is close to zero.

That will get you minute lock, even with 70%-90% missing
pulses, in a matter of minutes if you use a longer
shift register.

I did a parallel prototype for MSF, but I didn't need it
so I never completed it, not sure I have it around any
more.

I should really write an article about that code...

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From w9gb at icloud.com  Tue Feb  6 14:45:11 2018
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 13:45:11 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
Message-ID: <3C40ABEF-040F-48DA-B27A-5644A1A87AA4@icloud.com>

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2015-October/094105.html
In 2014 and 2015 Launch3 Telecom offered NOS Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antennas at a good price ($25 each) to time-nuts members  These were surplus (>750), never used, due to mobile/cellular company merger over decade ago.  Looks like they still have some.
https://www.launch3telecom.com/symmetricom/58532a.html
Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna -- Data-sheet
http://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/133381-58532a
Launch3Telecom.com
27 Daniel Road
Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
===

Sent from iPad Air

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 14:54:23 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:54:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <3C40ABEF-040F-48DA-B27A-5644A1A87AA4@icloud.com>
References: <3C40ABEF-040F-48DA-B27A-5644A1A87AA4@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <620D86EE-A344-455C-88E3-95B53CA21C2C@n1k.org>

Hi

That’s likely a “better” antenna for a TBolt-only setup than the L1 / L2 gizmo that
we have been chatting about. Why? 

1) if it’s still $25 it would be ~ 1/4 the price

2) it has a pretty good filter built into it. 

3) it’s designed for continuous outdoor use  (connector is well shielded etc)

4) It’s smaller and easier to mount 

Lots to like.

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Gregory Beat <w9gb at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2015-October/094105.html
> In 2014 and 2015 Launch3 Telecom offered NOS Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antennas at a good price ($25 each) to time-nuts members  These were surplus (>750), never used, due to mobile/cellular company merger over decade ago.  Looks like they still have some.
> https://www.launch3telecom.com/symmetricom/58532a.html
> Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna -- Data-sheet
> http://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/133381-58532a
> Launch3Telecom.com
> 27 Daniel Road
> Fairfield, New Jersey 07004
> ===
> 
> Sent from iPad Air
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From rnabioullin at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:05:29 2018
From: rnabioullin at gmail.com (Ruslan Nabioullin)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:05:29 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAHDZN8n=pKMnve=L-i539tiHo214Ev80Oe0gD_eXdhgmk+jy+g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> If you look in http://phk.freebsd.dk/phkrel/NTPns.20080902.tgz
> you will find a file called dcf77_blame.c with my code,
> here is a couple of the simpler tests:
>
>         /* LSB of minutes must be different from previous minute */
>         j = ip->shiftprev[(offset + 21) % 60];
>         if (j * ip->shiftreg[(offset + 21) % 60] > 0)
>                 FAIL((why, " 0"));
>
>         /*
>          * If the LSB of minutes was '1' in previous minute
>          * the next higher bit must have changed, if it was
>          * a '0' it must not.
>          */
>         if (j *
>             ip->shiftreg[(offset + 22) % 60] *
>             ip->shiftprev[(offset + 22) % 60] > 0)
>                 FAIL((why, " 1"));
> ...
> I did a parallel prototype for MSF, but I didn't need it
> so I never completed it, not sure I have it around any
> more.
>
> I should really write an article about that code...

How difficult would it be to complete these modules and integrate them
with the rest of NTP, as NTP decoder modules?  So instead of an AM HF
receiver, the setup for these signals would be:

LF receiver set to CW demodulation set to appropriate parameters ->
NTP timekeeping system sound card

One of my organization's projects consists of robust public time
transfer via NTP over the Internet, based on a combination of various
on-site standards (rackmount OCXO, rubidium, and/or cesium standards)
and external signals (incl. WWV and CHU, using preamplifier ->
preselector -> analog parametric demodulator -> sound card, controlled
by ionospheric prediction daemon software on GNU/Linux via GPIB), the
nodes being geographically dispersed throughout the US and Canada.
It's probable that I will end up relocating to Western Europe
(coincidentally, the Republic of Ireland!) in the moderate future, and
therefore it would be nice if these LF or HF signals were to be
supported, for use as fallbacks to the standard GNSS sources (each
site typically will have one military and one industrial civilian
rackmount GPS receiver).

-Ruslan

-- 
Ruslan Nabioullin
Wittgenstein Laboratories
rnabioullin at gmail.com
(508) 523-8535
50 Louise Dr.
Hollis, NH 03049

From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:14:13 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:14:13 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CALiMYru9FDmuOOHGWkOxp7o8ccpNWb_4vOUU0BNLcCsSjKcZLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALiMYru9FDmuOOHGWkOxp7o8ccpNWb_4vOUU0BNLcCsSjKcZLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+4LKsOWGQbTX5c=fdOVsSe4XMwUdt3GhYT-4xCrYMJsEA@mail.gmail.com>

I used this cheap (but good for the price!) signal analyser -

http://www.ebay.ie/itm/Hobby-Components-UK-USB-24M-8CH-24MHz-Logic-Analyser/161309221423?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I used sigrok to do the recording -

https://www.sigrok.org/

Let me know if you collect some data - I'd be interested in seeing your
results!


On 6 February 2018 at 19:36, Adrian Godwin <artgodwin at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Deirdre,
>
> I'd like to repeat your measurement at a different location (eastern
> england).
>
> What did you use to capture the data and write it as a vcd file ?
>
> -adrian
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:40 PM, Deirdre O'Byrne <deirdre.dub at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > OK so it's not the microsecond or nanosecond stuff that much of this list
> > is about, but I've been running an experiment for the past few days
> > gathering data on how well (or otherwise) a pair of cheap EM2S radio
> > receiver modules receive the MSF radio signal. I've been trying to see
> if I
> > could design a decoding algorithm that would be more noise-tolerant than
> > the algorithms I've seen out in the wild.
> >
> > Details are on my github, and the results are presented in a paper -
> >
> > https://github.com/deirdreobyrne/MSF-EM2S/blob/master/paper.pdf
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:02:12 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:02:12 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tLZRFuy-OTanc39wW_8h6h9jw+yEdDvLianaYEYRT3ojQ@mail.gmail.com>

It should work with a T bolt since its range is 3.3 to 18 volts. I also
have a good bias T and GPS type splitter that only passes power to one port
that I can also use. I hope the gain isn't a problem. I live in the
country, so local RF shouldn't be an issue. I can scrounge up some pads if
need be. I plan on starting out with the Leica if I can retrieve it from
its present location. Then, I will probably compare that to the Trimble and
later the Chinese made one. I also have a couple of the type they use at
cellsites, one of which is a Motorola. Something tells me that the Leica
will be the eventual winner. It is the only one that is a choke ring type.
I keep looking on eBay for a reasonably priced unit that will work with the
new L5 civilian band birds. Nothing so far.

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Feb  6 15:21:00 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 12:21:00 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: Message from Ruslan Nabioullin <rnabioullin@gmail.com> of "Tue,
 06 Feb 2018 15:05:29 EST."
 <CAHDZN8n=pKMnve=L-i539tiHo214Ev80Oe0gD_eXdhgmk+jy+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180206202100.BFDDA40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


rnabioullin at gmail.com said:
> How difficult would it be to complete these modules and integrate them with
> the rest of NTP, as NTP decoder modules?  So instead of an AM HF receiver,
> the setup for these signals would be: 

The simple way to do that is to use the shared-memory interface.  No changes 
to ntpd required.


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb  6 15:22:13 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 20:22:13 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAHDZN8n=pKMnve=L-i539tiHo214Ev80Oe0gD_eXdhgmk+jy+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAHDZN8n=pKMnve=L-i539tiHo214Ev80Oe0gD_eXdhgmk+jy+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33537.1517948533@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAHDZN8n=pKMnve=L-i539tiHo214Ev80Oe0gD_eXdhgmk+jy+g at mail.gmail.com>
, Ruslan Nabioullin writes:
>On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

>> If you look in http://phk.freebsd.dk/phkrel/NTPns.20080902.tgz
>> you will find a file called dcf77_blame.c with my code,

>How difficult would it be to complete these modules and integrate them
>with the rest of NTP, as NTP decoder modules?  So instead of an AM HF
>receiver, the setup for these signals would be:

Well, NTPns *is* a NTP server program, but a very special one.

If you really want to receive VLF for NTP purposes, you should hook
a 1M sample/sec ADC to your antenna and implement _all_ the
demodulation in software.

(The BeagleBoneBlack with its two PRU units would be close to
a perfect platform for this)

The more stable your sample frequency your ADC has, the easier
the software will be to write.

You can carrier-track DCF77, 162kHz France, MSF and Loran-C in one
go, by simply averaging the raw antennasignal in a long enough
circular buffer, then multiply by a suitable SIN/COS complex signal.

For signals on kHz spacing (50, 162, 198 any other you care for)
you can make a single one millisecond (ie: 1000 samples) circular
buffer, and extract all the phases from that buffer, by multiplying
by suitable SIN/COS and averaging the result to DC.

For 77.5 kHz you will need a 2 millisecond buffer.

If you want to recover the phase modulation on 162 kHz you can
use the phase from the first buffer as your reference.

(See: http://phk.freebsd.dk/loran-c/SW)

If you want to recover the PRNG phase on DCF77 you will need to
do the full early/prompt/late correlation, but that is also
pretty cheap as you can pre-generate the sequence to compare with
at compile time.

Alternatively make a full-second buffer and average into that with
polarity suitably swapped based on AM pulse width, and do the
early/prompt/later about once a minute or so in high-level software.

Loran-C is the same basic story, I did that on a 32bit ARM
some years ago.

(See: http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/)

So much code to write and so little time...


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Tue Feb  6 15:29:32 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 12:29:32 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>

Deirdre,

That's a nice piece of work. Thanks for posting it. And I hope we continue to see results as you refine the decoding process.

Some comments:

1) Knowing the UTC tick (via GPS) is, of course, a benefit. If it were an isolated MSF receiver you wouldn't have this information, but for your purposes of exploring algorithms it is useful.

2) Not all decoding errors are equal. Since this is a time code instead of arbitrary binary data you can use the internal structure of the data to your benefit. For example, you know all the bits for the year and month and day of week shouldn't change over an entire day and so this increases your decoding confidence. Day of week is correlated to date. Hours and minutes will increment and you can anticipate this. A large number of month, day, hour, and minute values will never be transmitted. For any BCD value, 6 of 16 states are invalid. There are parity bits. So all of these constraints can guide your optimal weighted decoding process. You essentially decode against a known template and this is more robust than having to decode blind.

3) It's clever to use a 20 kHz synchronous logic analyzer for this analysis. As you observe, the 50 us granularity is sufficient for your needs. A side-effect of your data set is that you can track performance of the oscillator inside the logic analyzer: convert the 700k GPS timestamps into interval, find and replace the 4 glitch lines with 2 lines of 1.000150, and then use Stable32 or TimeLab to plot. I used a 10 minute running average to reduce the 50 us quantization noise. Note the mean frequency of your timebase is 152 ppm low. Over 8 days this results in a cumulative sampling error of 105 seconds. If your decoding algorithms are relative instead of absolute this won't be a problem. OTOH, you may be able to use your decoding process to detect this drift and then compensate for it in software. You have the beginnings of a MSF-Disciplined-Oscillator project.

Attached are some frequency and ADEV plots for your oscillator. Note the initial frequency drift during the first hour of the run; probably a thermal effect. Ok, these plots have nothing to do with decoding MSF, but it does show how one can use a logic analyzer as a cheap "counter" for long-term frequency accuracy and stability measurements. It's essentially what the picPET, or any other time-stamping counter, does.

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Deirdre O'Byrne" <deirdre.dub at gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 10:40 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules


> OK so it's not the microsecond or nanosecond stuff that much of this list
> is about, but I've been running an experiment for the past few days
> gathering data on how well (or otherwise) a pair of cheap EM2S radio
> receiver modules receive the MSF radio signal. I've been trying to see if I
> could design a decoding algorithm that would be more noise-tolerant than
> the algorithms I've seen out in the wild.
> 
> Details are on my github, and the results are presented in a paper -
> 
> https://github.com/deirdreobyrne/MSF-EM2S/blob/master/paper.pdf
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
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From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:28:19 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:28:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>

That's the next level of error detection. Unfortunately I notice with MSF
and these cheap receivers it can be difficult to determine what the binary
values being transmitted during the second were, which was my motivation
for the analysis I did.

I notice that there is one significant difference between DCF and MSF - the
former does not entirely turn off the carrier during the second, whereas
the latter does. I suspect that is the reason why with MSF receivers it can
so often be difficult to determine what the binary values transmitted were,
as the receiver AGC circuitry possibly has a difficult time keeping up with
drastically changing received power levels, which subsequently give rise to
noise in the received signal.

Splitting the MSF received signal into 100ms chunks, all of the seconds
apart from the start-of-minute marker are of the form 0AB11111. Using "x"
to represent a 100ms chunk whose value could not be determined, I notice
that many of the received seconds were of the form "0AB1x111" or "0AB11x11"
etc - i.e. there was only one 100ms chunk within the second whose value
could not be reliably determined and whose value was non-critical. With a
blame algorithm in place it should be possible to recover these signals.


On 6 February 2018 at 19:37, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ at mail.
> gmail.com>
> , "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
>
> >I've been trying to see if I could design a decoding algorithm that
> >would be more noise-tolerant than the algorithms I've seen out in
> >the wild.
>
> You can: I baptised it "the blame algoritm".
>
> The trick is not to try to accept pulses as valid but to try to
> throw out pulses which are impossible.
>
> Imagine you have a 120 second long shift-register, and you feed
> your received pulses into it.
>
> Then try brute force, for every one of the newest 60 positions if
> that can be the start of a minute or not, by testing all the
> constraints you can think of, and there are surprisingly many.
>
> Some are obvious, the bits encoding the hour cannot contain "39",
> but that is a remarkable weak filter that seldom kicks in.
>
> A much stronger filter is that the bits encoding the hour must be
> the same as in the previous minute *unless* minutes were 59 in the
> previous minute *and* zero in this minute.
>
> If you count it up, that is a strong and very peculiar relationship
> on all the hour-bits and all the minutes-bits and if even one single
> of them are wrong, you can definitively discard that theory for the
> start of the minute.
>
> A similar thing holds for the date bits, the time in the
> previous minute must be 23:59:59 and in this 00:00:00 for
> there to be any difference between the dates, and even
> then, only a small number of possible changes in the date
> bits are valid.
>
> If you look in http://phk.freebsd.dk/phkrel/NTPns.20080902.tgz
> you will find a file called dcf77_blame.c with my code,
> here is a couple of the simpler tests:
>
>         /* LSB of minutes must be different from previous minute */
>         j = ip->shiftprev[(offset + 21) % 60];
>         if (j * ip->shiftreg[(offset + 21) % 60] > 0)
>                 FAIL((why, " 0"));
>
>         /*
>          * If the LSB of minutes was '1' in previous minute
>          * the next higher bit must have changed, if it was
>          * a '0' it must not.
>          */
>         if (j *
>             ip->shiftreg[(offset + 22) % 60] *
>             ip->shiftprev[(offset + 22) % 60] > 0)
>                 FAIL((why, " 1"));
>
> When using this algorithm, missing pulses is almost a
> non-issue up to around 40% of them missing, and even
> in an enviroment like that, it is not uncommon to see
> the algorithm lock on to the minute in about 34 seconds
> and know the full time in less than 3 minutes.
>
> If you make your pulse width discriminator *really* selective,
> which you might as well, you can "blacklist" disproved
> minute positions for the next many minutes as the
> risk of a '1' and '0' being confused is close to zero.
>
> That will get you minute lock, even with 70%-90% missing
> pulses, in a matter of minutes if you use a longer
> shift register.
>
> I did a parallel prototype for MSF, but I didn't need it
> so I never completed it, not sure I have it around any
> more.
>
> I should really write an article about that code...
>
> Poul-Henning
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 15:34:23 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:34:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226@n1k.org>

Hi

If you want to get even more “nutty", look at the “seed” that you likely already have 
for the computation. In this day and age, you probably know what day / month / year it is. 
Since you might not (say) know the hour, you have a +/- 1 day sort of tolerance on that. It rolls 
into month and year in some cases. The seed adds complexity, but probably makes
things more robust. 

If the purpose is to “always be right” then retaining a seed probably improves things. 

The flip side is (of course) “what if I’ve been lied to?”. That applies with or without a seed. 
Heading off into a situation where you never (re)lock could be one result. How long do you go before 
you decide to try something else? 

One cute thing is that this stuff is (in general) not very compute intensive. If data past the 
minute tick is being looked at, you probably can afford to run multiple parallel solutions (even 
on a < $5 MCU). 

Lots of zigs and zags ….

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 2:37 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ at mail.gmail.com>
> , "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
> 
>> I've been trying to see if I could design a decoding algorithm that
>> would be more noise-tolerant than the algorithms I've seen out in
>> the wild.
> 
> You can: I baptised it "the blame algoritm".
> 
> The trick is not to try to accept pulses as valid but to try to
> throw out pulses which are impossible.
> 
> Imagine you have a 120 second long shift-register, and you feed
> your received pulses into it.
> 
> Then try brute force, for every one of the newest 60 positions if
> that can be the start of a minute or not, by testing all the
> constraints you can think of, and there are surprisingly many.
> 
> Some are obvious, the bits encoding the hour cannot contain "39",
> but that is a remarkable weak filter that seldom kicks in.
> 
> A much stronger filter is that the bits encoding the hour must be
> the same as in the previous minute *unless* minutes were 59 in the
> previous minute *and* zero in this minute.
> 
> If you count it up, that is a strong and very peculiar relationship
> on all the hour-bits and all the minutes-bits and if even one single
> of them are wrong, you can definitively discard that theory for the
> start of the minute.
> 
> A similar thing holds for the date bits, the time in the
> previous minute must be 23:59:59 and in this 00:00:00 for
> there to be any difference between the dates, and even
> then, only a small number of possible changes in the date
> bits are valid.
> 
> If you look in http://phk.freebsd.dk/phkrel/NTPns.20080902.tgz
> you will find a file called dcf77_blame.c with my code,
> here is a couple of the simpler tests:
> 
>        /* LSB of minutes must be different from previous minute */
>        j = ip->shiftprev[(offset + 21) % 60];
>        if (j * ip->shiftreg[(offset + 21) % 60] > 0)
>                FAIL((why, " 0"));
> 
>        /*
>         * If the LSB of minutes was '1' in previous minute
>         * the next higher bit must have changed, if it was
>         * a '0' it must not.
>         */
>        if (j *
>            ip->shiftreg[(offset + 22) % 60] *
>            ip->shiftprev[(offset + 22) % 60] > 0)
>                FAIL((why, " 1"));
> 
> When using this algorithm, missing pulses is almost a
> non-issue up to around 40% of them missing, and even
> in an enviroment like that, it is not uncommon to see
> the algorithm lock on to the minute in about 34 seconds
> and know the full time in less than 3 minutes.
> 
> If you make your pulse width discriminator *really* selective,
> which you might as well, you can "blacklist" disproved
> minute positions for the next many minutes as the
> risk of a '1' and '0' being confused is close to zero.
> 
> That will get you minute lock, even with 70%-90% missing
> pulses, in a matter of minutes if you use a longer
> shift register.
> 
> I did a parallel prototype for MSF, but I didn't need it
> so I never completed it, not sure I have it around any
> more.
> 
> I should really write an article about that code...
> 
> Poul-Henning
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From michaeljwouters at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:45:45 2018
From: michaeljwouters at gmail.com (Michael Wouters)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 20:45:45 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>

I can see why the geodetic community would worry about antenna phase centre
variation when a radome is installed but is it really an issue in timing
applications? The few papers I've read suggest PCVs of less than 10 mm, or
equivalently, 30 ps. This is at the level of precision available from
post-processed, carrier phase time-transfer but  invisible in the 1 pps
coming out of your receiver, even with a good sawtooth correction. Am I
missing something?

Cheers
Michael

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 at 4:14 am, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> There are “cell site” specific GPS antennas on the market. Panasonic has
> had one out
> for quite a while. I’m sure there are several others.
>
> One issue with doing any sort of “cover” for a precision antenna is
> distorting it’s pattern.
> Plastic (or whatever you use) will have different properties than air. A
> path through a blob
> of “not air” will change the effective path length. That impacts the
> timing and thus the
> navigation solution. If you are worried about 2mm sort of pattern
> accuracy, things get
> tricky. Early on, there was a big “throw out the radomes push when this
> was first noticed.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:15 AM, Bo Hansen <timenuts at rudius.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Besides the RF characteristics it may also be worth considering the
> quality of the plastics used. Over time water ingress may become an issue.
> Fours years after the installation of a CN brand antenna, sourced locally
> so probably not counterfeit either, we had to replace it at OZ7IGY
> www.oz7igy.dk
> >
> > RF wise 42 dB of gain IS an issue. Again at OZ7IGY, with 12 carriers in
> the air especially 13 cm and 23 cm, blocking and IMD were an issue before
> we mounted a BPF. I have taken apart the above mentioned antenna, a
> Motorola antenna and an eBay "hockey puck" antenna. The best design was
> clearly the Motorola one because it had a BPF after the pre-amp - probably
> because it was designed by RF competent people too. Each of the other ones
> had two FETs/MMICs in series and then a BPF. Of cause if no nearby carriers
> are in the air it may be less of an issue.
> >
> > So designing a really good antenna and pre-amp may be a business
> opportunity. There are many hi IP3 MMICs available designed for GPS and the
> like purposes. SAW BPFs with <1 dB loss are available fairly cheap so one
> before the FET/MMIC with a 1 dB NF is the way to go. A DIY radome using
> standard materials from any hardware shop is attached.
> >
> > Bo, OZ2M
> >
> > <GPSAnt_DIY_Radome.png>_______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb  6 15:46:15 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:46:15 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+RbNhAfs7qiHvoHzYDtm7B0ot7B4VcRHUmX00p00Qb=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+RbNhAfs7qiHvoHzYDtm7B0ot7B4VcRHUmX00p00Qb=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180206214615.ff25c769c7745359b06c4f84@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:08:42 -0600
John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. It looks similar to but not exactly like the two
> antennas referenced. They say the preamp is 3 to 5.5 volts, whereas the
> eBay antenna says its preamp is good from 3.3 to 18 volts, indicating I can
> run it off 12 volts.

I am pretty sure that this is either a mistake or a deliberate
deceit. Most LNA's I am aware of work between 3.3V and 5V. The
cheap ones are definitely all in that range. Some of those might
work for a short time with higher voltage, depending on the actual
semiconductor process used for production. But that means using
those chips outside their specs and putting a high straign on the
semiconductor, which will lead to an early death. It also cannot
be an LDO inside the antenna, as 3.3V is pretty much the lowest
voltage you can get an LNA for. There are some that work at 3.0V
still, but that would leave only 0.3V for the LDO, which requires
a more expensive LDO. I am pretty sure there are some LNAs that work
at 2.5V or even lower, but those would be definitely in the
way-too-expensive category.

So, my guess is, they tested the antenna whether it works with 12V,
seen that it does, and just "adjusted" the specs. But in reality,
the LNA still maxes out at 5V if you want a reliable device.


			Attila Kinali
-- 
<JaberWorky>	The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
                throw DARK chocolate at you.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 16:13:41 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:13:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>

Hi

Since we are talking about an L1 / L2 antenna here, a reasonable assumption 
would be that the target is something better than an “average result”. If you construct 
a cover out of a piece of PVC pipe (as shown in the original drawing), your worst 
case path has a foot or so of PVC in it compared to a best case path with well under
a tenth of an inch. That’s going to give you a bit of variation ….. Add some dirt or water
or ice to the equation and who knows what the result might be. 

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Wouters <michaeljwouters at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I can see why the geodetic community would worry about antenna phase centre
> variation when a radome is installed but is it really an issue in timing
> applications? The few papers I've read suggest PCVs of less than 10 mm, or
> equivalently, 30 ps. This is at the level of precision available from
> post-processed, carrier phase time-transfer but  invisible in the 1 pps
> coming out of your receiver, even with a good sawtooth correction. Am I
> missing something?
> 
> Cheers
> Michael
> 
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 at 4:14 am, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> There are “cell site” specific GPS antennas on the market. Panasonic has
>> had one out
>> for quite a while. I’m sure there are several others.
>> 
>> One issue with doing any sort of “cover” for a precision antenna is
>> distorting it’s pattern.
>> Plastic (or whatever you use) will have different properties than air. A
>> path through a blob
>> of “not air” will change the effective path length. That impacts the
>> timing and thus the
>> navigation solution. If you are worried about 2mm sort of pattern
>> accuracy, things get
>> tricky. Early on, there was a big “throw out the radomes push when this
>> was first noticed.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:15 AM, Bo Hansen <timenuts at rudius.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Besides the RF characteristics it may also be worth considering the
>> quality of the plastics used. Over time water ingress may become an issue.
>> Fours years after the installation of a CN brand antenna, sourced locally
>> so probably not counterfeit either, we had to replace it at OZ7IGY
>> www.oz7igy.dk
>>> 
>>> RF wise 42 dB of gain IS an issue. Again at OZ7IGY, with 12 carriers in
>> the air especially 13 cm and 23 cm, blocking and IMD were an issue before
>> we mounted a BPF. I have taken apart the above mentioned antenna, a
>> Motorola antenna and an eBay "hockey puck" antenna. The best design was
>> clearly the Motorola one because it had a BPF after the pre-amp - probably
>> because it was designed by RF competent people too. Each of the other ones
>> had two FETs/MMICs in series and then a BPF. Of cause if no nearby carriers
>> are in the air it may be less of an issue.
>>> 
>>> So designing a really good antenna and pre-amp may be a business
>> opportunity. There are many hi IP3 MMICs available designed for GPS and the
>> like purposes. SAW BPFs with <1 dB loss are available fairly cheap so one
>> before the FET/MMIC with a 1 dB NF is the way to go. A DIY radome using
>> standard materials from any hardware shop is attached.
>>> 
>>> Bo, OZ2M
>>> 
>>> <GPSAnt_DIY_Radome.png>_______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb  6 16:19:42 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 21:19:42 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33800.1517951982@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:

>With a blame algorithm in place it should be possible to recover these signals.

Yes, easily.

At distance MSF is significantly harder to receive than DCF77.

One of the reasons is that USA also operates two 60kHz transmitters
also very precisely on frequency, so there are areas of the world
where the three signals cancel and areas where they reinforce
each other.

I tried to model this many years ago, but I don't trust the result,
somebody with better HF-propagation chops than me should look at it.

In addition to that problem, switch-mode designers seems to just
*love* 60 kHz, and at least here in Denmark there is a lot more
"hash" around 60 kHz than 77.5 kHz.

Finally, the modulation scheme of MSF is a bit on the overengineered
side, which makes pulse discrimination needlessly hard - as you have
also found out.

The big advantage of the blame algorithm is that since it is so
tolerant of missing pulses, you can be throw everything away which
isn't 100% clearcut.

If you look at the top of the dcf77.c file, you can see how I did
that for DCF77, but the complex modulation of MSF needs a much
more complex state engine there.

Finally, many of the small "clock-receivers", like the one you use,
are optimised for battery-life and therefore they use very resonant
filters, often crystal-filters, and heavy low-pass after demodulation,
and that trows away a LOT of information which would be useful to
have to discriminate the pulses.

If you go for the SDR approach, you will have much more information
available, and can use much more well-behaved filters to detect the
pulses, and one added advantage of carrier-tracking is that the
power-modulation is carrier-synchronous, which makes them much
easier to spot.

So really:  Get yourself an 1MSPS ADC chip and go that route instead.

(In theory, certain modern sound-cards should be usable for this if
you can rip out their low-pass filters.  Havn't tried.)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb  6 16:26:23 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 21:26:23 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226@n1k.org>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <33844.1517952383@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>If you want to get even more “nutty", look at the “seed” that you likely already have 
>for the computation. In this day and age, you probably know what day / month / year it is. 

So, some of us think of that as cheating :-)

>Since you might not (say) know the hour, you have a +/- 1 day sort of tolerance on that. It rolls 
>into month and year in some cases. The seed adds complexity, but probably makes
>things more robust. 

I tried it, and it gave surprisingly little benefit.

Unless very fast initial aquisition is your goal (why?!) you get a
more robust result by not "cheating", since in real life at some
point your RTC chip will contain bogus values.

If you go the SDR route and decode DCF77 and MSF (and 162kHz France,
WWV/B, the japanese signal at 40kHz and the russian at 200/3 kHz for
that matter) in parallel, it is perfectly fair to expect them all
to have the same date (modulus timezones).

And yes, I would really *love* to se a colaborative project that
produced an "all-world VLF timecode SDR-receiver"...

>One cute thing is that this stuff is (in general) not very compute intensive. If data past the 
>minute tick is being looked at, you probably can afford to run multiple parallel solutions (even 
>on a < $5 MCU). 

The NTPns ran on a Soekris4501 and I was never able to measure a
difference in power having the DCF77 blame code running or not.

After all, it's only sixty trival patterns to match once a second...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 17:14:02 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:14:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <33844.1517952383@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226@n1k.org>
 <33844.1517952383@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAijsaZohb+Dq841oM6C5haikQt3O9D2YLOhYP=jruUpfA@mail.gmail.com>

Deirdre,
Great discussion on my favorite topic. I am the guy on the other side of
the lake that curses MSFs interference with WWVB.
I did indeed cheat by using the GPS time and 1 second tick to recreate the
WWVB timecode bits to remove the psk shifts in the received signal here on
the east coast. This allowed phase tracking receivers to correctly work
again.
Did MSF finally go to a BPSK signal format? I heard they were considering
that.
regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 4:26 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> --------
> In message <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq
> writes:
>
> >If you want to get even more “nutty", look at the “seed” that you likely
> already have
> >for the computation. In this day and age, you probably know what day /
> month / year it is.
>
> So, some of us think of that as cheating :-)
>
> >Since you might not (say) know the hour, you have a +/- 1 day sort of
> tolerance on that. It rolls
> >into month and year in some cases. The seed adds complexity, but probably
> makes
> >things more robust.
>
> I tried it, and it gave surprisingly little benefit.
>
> Unless very fast initial aquisition is your goal (why?!) you get a
> more robust result by not "cheating", since in real life at some
> point your RTC chip will contain bogus values.
>
> If you go the SDR route and decode DCF77 and MSF (and 162kHz France,
> WWV/B, the japanese signal at 40kHz and the russian at 200/3 kHz for
> that matter) in parallel, it is perfectly fair to expect them all
> to have the same date (modulus timezones).
>
> And yes, I would really *love* to se a colaborative project that
> produced an "all-world VLF timecode SDR-receiver"...
>
> >One cute thing is that this stuff is (in general) not very compute
> intensive. If data past the
> >minute tick is being looked at, you probably can afford to run multiple
> parallel solutions (even
> >on a < $5 MCU).
>
> The NTPns ran on a Soekris4501 and I was never able to measure a
> difference in power having the DCF77 blame code running or not.
>
> After all, it's only sixty trival patterns to match once a second...
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From not.again at btinternet.com  Tue Feb  6 17:21:41 2018
From: not.again at btinternet.com (Angus)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 22:21:41 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <620D86EE-A344-455C-88E3-95B53CA21C2C@n1k.org>
References: <3C40ABEF-040F-48DA-B27A-5644A1A87AA4@icloud.com>
 <620D86EE-A344-455C-88E3-95B53CA21C2C@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <sg8k7dhmvivprc1mn8ahrmmutp5j25j7mj@4ax.com>

On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:54:23 -0500, you wrote:

>3) it’s designed for continuous outdoor use  (connector is well shielded etc)

That's something that has always baffled me - the number of antennas
which the manufacturers claim are suitable for long term outdoor use
that have connectors which are impossible to seal without large
quantities of sealant or whatever.

Angus.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 17:25:48 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:25:48 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <33800.1517951982@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <33800.1517951982@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <BCDE23EB-6D5B-4F2A-891D-242074320008@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:19 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
> 
>> With a blame algorithm in place it should be possible to recover these signals.
> 
> Yes, easily.
> 
> At distance MSF is significantly harder to receive than DCF77.
> 
> One of the reasons is that USA also operates two 60kHz transmitters
> also very precisely on frequency, so there are areas of the world
> where the three signals cancel and areas where they reinforce
> each other.

I believe we only have one transmitter on the air at 60 KHz in the US. The 
Japanese do indeed operate multiple transmitters on the same frequency 
( 40 KHz). There have been a number of proposals to set up a second US
transmitter. The last time I noticed them beating the drum for one, it was 
going to be at 40 KHz rather than 60 KHz. The proposal pretty much died 
yet again ….

Since MSF *is* on 60 KHz, you do indeed get dead spots. There probably is an
interesting plot of locations that have issues with both the 40 KHz and 60 KHz
transmissions due to simply being in the wrong place. 

Bob

> 
> I tried to model this many years ago, but I don't trust the result,
> somebody with better HF-propagation chops than me should look at it.
> 
> In addition to that problem, switch-mode designers seems to just
> *love* 60 kHz, and at least here in Denmark there is a lot more
> "hash" around 60 kHz than 77.5 kHz.
> 
> Finally, the modulation scheme of MSF is a bit on the overengineered
> side, which makes pulse discrimination needlessly hard - as you have
> also found out.
> 
> The big advantage of the blame algorithm is that since it is so
> tolerant of missing pulses, you can be throw everything away which
> isn't 100% clearcut.
> 
> If you look at the top of the dcf77.c file, you can see how I did
> that for DCF77, but the complex modulation of MSF needs a much
> more complex state engine there.
> 
> Finally, many of the small "clock-receivers", like the one you use,
> are optimised for battery-life and therefore they use very resonant
> filters, often crystal-filters, and heavy low-pass after demodulation,
> and that trows away a LOT of information which would be useful to
> have to discriminate the pulses.
> 
> If you go for the SDR approach, you will have much more information
> available, and can use much more well-behaved filters to detect the
> pulses, and one added advantage of carrier-tracking is that the
> power-modulation is carrier-synchronous, which makes them much
> easier to spot.
> 
> So really:  Get yourself an 1MSPS ADC chip and go that route instead.
> 
> (In theory, certain modern sound-cards should be usable for this if
> you can rip out their low-pass filters.  Havn't tried.)
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Feb  6 17:57:42 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 14:57:42 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: Message from Bob kb8tq <kb8tq@n1k.org> of "Tue,
 06 Feb 2018 17:25:48 EST." <BCDE23EB-6D5B-4F2A-891D-242074320008@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180206225742.6703040605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>

> Since MSF *is* on 60 KHz, you do indeed get dead spots.

If the two signals are not encoded identically, there should be an 
interesting signal when one of the transmitters is off and the other is on.  
Has anybody looked for that sort of pattern?

Is there a map of the dead spots?  Any time-nuts live in/near one?



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 18:06:23 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 18:06:23 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <20180206225742.6703040605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20180206225742.6703040605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <098DC913-3F63-4AE1-9D79-8A49728AFBE9@n1k.org>

Hi

If you look at the papers for the “new” WWVB format, there are plots of where the
MSF issues are likely to be the greatest. Since both signals are phase and amplitude
 shifted by propagation effects, you will not get stationary nulls. You simply get zones
where the reception is tough. 

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 5:57 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
>> Since MSF *is* on 60 KHz, you do indeed get dead spots.
> 
> If the two signals are not encoded identically, there should be an 
> interesting signal when one of the transmitters is off and the other is on.  
> Has anybody looked for that sort of pattern?
> 
> Is there a map of the dead spots?  Any time-nuts live in/near one?
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb  6 18:28:47 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 23:28:47 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <20180206225742.6703040605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20180206225742.6703040605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <34270.1517959727@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20180206225742.6703040605C at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>, Hal Murray writes:
>> Since MSF *is* on 60 KHz, you do indeed get dead spots.
>
>If the two signals are not encoded identically, there should be an 
>interesting signal when one of the transmitters is off and the other is on.  
>Has anybody looked for that sort of pattern?

I have seen signs of that in my data in the shape of phase-shifts,
and that sort of made me concentrate on DCF & LORAN.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:03:22 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:03:22 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tL5tBe5GwHcMfGrhKPNbzu+pmh8JDJUEtxWynn-VN6ywg@mail.gmail.com>

I kind of have to believe the specs. The two survey grade antennas I
already have, a Leica and a Trimble, both have regulators in the preamp
sections. The Leica has an 8 volt one and the Trimble has a 5 volt one. I
intend to hook it up to a variable supply and watch the current as I
increase voltage. If it has a regulator, the current should stabilize at an
input voltage just above what the internal preamp operates at. If not, it
should continue to rise. I am tempted to pry it apart, even if it risks
damage just so I can see for myself what they are using for the preamp
stages.

From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 15:48:41 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:48:41 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>

Tom,

Thanks for the feedback!

On 6 February 2018 at 20:29, Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:

>
> 2) Not all decoding errors are equal. Since this is a time code instead of
> arbitrary binary data you can use the internal structure of the data to
> your benefit.
>

As I said to Poul-Henning, that is the next level of error detection, which
also has application in error correcting some of the "almost-right" signals.


> 3) A side-effect of your data set is that you can track performance of the
> oscillator inside the logic analyzer: convert the 700k GPS timestamps into
> interval, find and replace the 4 glitch lines with 2 lines of 1.000150, and
> then use Stable32 or TimeLab to plot. I used a 10 minute running average to
> reduce the 50 us quantization noise. Note the mean frequency of your
> timebase is 152 ppm low.


I made it out to be 152.2ppm, which is kinda disappointing. But the signal
analyser cost very little, and you get what you pay for.

I have not yet wrapped my head around how to create ADEV plots, so thanks
for your work on that - it's interesting to see that (presumed) initial
thermal effect.


> Over 8 days this results in a cumulative sampling error of 105 seconds. If
> your decoding algorithms are relative instead of absolute this won't be a
> problem. OTOH, you may be able to use your decoding process to detect this
> drift and then compensate for it in software. You have the beginnings of a
> MSF-Disciplined-Oscillator project.
>

MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
a long integration time!

Thanks again.

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Tue Feb  6 20:03:36 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 17:03:36 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: Message from "Deirdre O'Byrne" <deirdre.dub@gmail.com> of "Tue,
 06 Feb 2018 20:48:41 GMT."
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180207010336.9C18D40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


deirdre.dub at gmail.com said:
> MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
> than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
> a long integration time! 

It would be interesting to see if you can find any pattern in your histogram 
plots.  Say, time of day.

What happens if you average over 10 or 100 samples?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 20:16:37 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:16:37 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5FD079A8-38C3-48D2-B4AC-D56286581046@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 3:48 PM, Deirdre O'Byrne <deirdre.dub at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Tom,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback!
> 
> On 6 February 2018 at 20:29, Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 2) Not all decoding errors are equal. Since this is a time code instead of
>> arbitrary binary data you can use the internal structure of the data to
>> your benefit.
>> 
> 
> As I said to Poul-Henning, that is the next level of error detection, which
> also has application in error correcting some of the "almost-right" signals.
> 
> 
>> 3) A side-effect of your data set is that you can track performance of the
>> oscillator inside the logic analyzer: convert the 700k GPS timestamps into
>> interval, find and replace the 4 glitch lines with 2 lines of 1.000150, and
>> then use Stable32 or TimeLab to plot. I used a 10 minute running average to
>> reduce the 50 us quantization noise. Note the mean frequency of your
>> timebase is 152 ppm low.
> 
> 
> I made it out to be 152.2ppm, which is kinda disappointing. But the signal
> analyser cost very little, and you get what you pay for.
> 
> I have not yet wrapped my head around how to create ADEV plots, so thanks
> for your work on that - it's interesting to see that (presumed) initial
> thermal effect.
> 
> 
>> Over 8 days this results in a cumulative sampling error of 105 seconds. If
>> your decoding algorithms are relative instead of absolute this won't be a
>> problem. OTOH, you may be able to use your decoding process to detect this
>> drift and then compensate for it in software. You have the beginnings of a
>> MSF-Disciplined-Oscillator project.
>> 
> 
> MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
> than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
> a long integration time!

Once upon a time, that *was* how people did disciplined oscillators. Part of the
answer to “how?” is that their target accuracies were not as tight as what we now
think of as normal. 

Bob


> 
> Thanks again.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 16:14:59 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:14:59 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAGJ4F+54Sxqc34fpNefNW3q3emHmq+uC-V-Lfc5Bnfk7h7qWUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+5phMNSwvO_LQSJYMkJQjW4UrO=nKFwjXrUpKfKOB7nfA@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Splitting the MSF received signal into 100ms chunks, all of the seconds
> apart from the start-of-minute marker are of the form 0AB11111. Using "x"
> to represent a 100ms chunk whose value could not be determined, I notice
> that many of the received seconds were of the form "0AB1x111" or "0AB11x11"
> etc - i.e. there was only one 100ms chunk within the second whose value
> could not be reliably determined and whose value was non-critical.
>

Ooops - apologies - this referred to another algorithm I investigated, and
makes no sense in the context of this algorithm.

Still I believe a blame algorithm would recover a lot of lost data. It
would require a shift register 1,200 wide - with each slot representing the
value during a 100ms interval from achosen edge.

Thanks.

From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Tue Feb  6 18:24:11 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 23:24:11 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAijsaZohb+Dq841oM6C5haikQt3O9D2YLOhYP=jruUpfA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <33310.1517945842@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <A2B31A8C-147B-4D35-BDC2-8D64D3743226@n1k.org>
 <33844.1517952383@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAD2JfAijsaZohb+Dq841oM6C5haikQt3O9D2YLOhYP=jruUpfA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+6wfY15XHSb7OwUbpPyEpg46ODJ+Abh0kSQ8CUyn5MP2g@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Did MSF finally go to a BPSK signal format? I heard they were considering
> that.
>

I don't know, though I've ordered a SDR which should be able to receive the
raw signal. I don't see anything about it in the documentation, though.

Regards,
Deirdre.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb  6 21:32:39 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:32:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tL5tBe5GwHcMfGrhKPNbzu+pmh8JDJUEtxWynn-VN6ywg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tL5tBe5GwHcMfGrhKPNbzu+pmh8JDJUEtxWynn-VN6ywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A159E737-912D-4B75-A566-2CF4687968A5@n1k.org>

Hi

If you spend some “quality time” with the pictures in the listing, the antenna
is indeed labeled “operating voltage 3.3 to 18V”. Yes, I find that a bit incredible.
If there is nonsense being generated, it’s not by the person listing the antenna 
on eBay.  My guess would be that the automotive world has pushed some odd
semiconductor outfit to tool up a regulator that does what’s needed.

Bob

> On Feb 6, 2018, at 4:03 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I kind of have to believe the specs. The two survey grade antennas I
> already have, a Leica and a Trimble, both have regulators in the preamp
> sections. The Leica has an 8 volt one and the Trimble has a 5 volt one. I
> intend to hook it up to a variable supply and watch the current as I
> increase voltage. If it has a regulator, the current should stabilize at an
> input voltage just above what the internal preamp operates at. If not, it
> should continue to rise. I am tempted to pry it apart, even if it risks
> damage just so I can see for myself what they are using for the preamp
> stages.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Feb  7 02:13:10 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 07:13:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:

>MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
>than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
>a long integration time!

It's actually more complicated and better than that.

The low-pass filter dominates, so the falling flank at second N
depends on the pulsewidth at second N-1.

I can't remember the numbers I got when I "sorted" DCF77 pulses depending
on the previous pulse being short or long, but it was a fair bit better
than 20ms.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From michaeljwouters at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 03:55:19 2018
From: michaeljwouters at gmail.com (Michael Wouters)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:55:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>

That does represent a limiting case but it's a bit pessimistic. The longest
path is for very shallow incident angles eg a 3 mm thick and 150 mm radius
disk gives an angle of only about 1 degree. At 10 degrees, the path is
about 20 mm; with a refractive index of 1.5, the path is only 10 mm longer.
10 degrees might be what you set in the receiver's elevation mask.

A mm thick layer of dirt is just going to be roughly another mm of plastic;
worse if it's absorbed moisture, true.

You have a point about water. Water has about 10 times the refractive index
of plastic (real part of n)  so this is more of a worry. A 1 mm film will
have triple the path through a nominal 3 mm of plastic so at 10 degrees
incidence there is now about 40 mm extra path which you might see in
post-processing. But you're not going to see that in the 1 pps.

Cheers
Michael

On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 at 8:14 am, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Since we are talking about an L1 / L2 antenna here, a reasonable assumption
> would be that the target is something better than an “average result”. If
> you construct
> a cover out of a piece of PVC pipe (as shown in the original drawing),
> your worst
> case path has a foot or so of PVC in it compared to a best case path with
> well under
> a tenth of an inch. That’s going to give you a bit of variation ….. Add
> some dirt or water
> or ice to the equation and who knows what the result might be.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 6, 2018, at 3:45 PM, Michael Wouters <michaeljwouters at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I can see why the geodetic community would worry about antenna phase
> centre
> > variation when a radome is installed but is it really an issue in timing
> > applications? The few papers I've read suggest PCVs of less than 10 mm,
> or
> > equivalently, 30 ps. This is at the level of precision available from
> > post-processed, carrier phase time-transfer but  invisible in the 1 pps
> > coming out of your receiver, even with a good sawtooth correction. Am I
> > missing something?
> >
> > Cheers
> > Michael
> >
> > On Wed, 7 Feb 2018 at 4:14 am, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> There are “cell site” specific GPS antennas on the market. Panasonic has
> >> had one out
> >> for quite a while. I’m sure there are several others.
> >>
> >> One issue with doing any sort of “cover” for a precision antenna is
> >> distorting it’s pattern.
> >> Plastic (or whatever you use) will have different properties than air. A
> >> path through a blob
> >> of “not air” will change the effective path length. That impacts the
> >> timing and thus the
> >> navigation solution. If you are worried about 2mm sort of pattern
> >> accuracy, things get
> >> tricky. Early on, there was a big “throw out the radomes push when this
> >> was first noticed.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Feb 6, 2018, at 6:15 AM, Bo Hansen <timenuts at rudius.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> Besides the RF characteristics it may also be worth considering the
> >> quality of the plastics used. Over time water ingress may become an
> issue.
> >> Fours years after the installation of a CN brand antenna, sourced
> locally
> >> so probably not counterfeit either, we had to replace it at OZ7IGY
> >> www.oz7igy.dk
> >>>
> >>> RF wise 42 dB of gain IS an issue. Again at OZ7IGY, with 12 carriers in
> >> the air especially 13 cm and 23 cm, blocking and IMD were an issue
> before
> >> we mounted a BPF. I have taken apart the above mentioned antenna, a
> >> Motorola antenna and an eBay "hockey puck" antenna. The best design was
> >> clearly the Motorola one because it had a BPF after the pre-amp -
> probably
> >> because it was designed by RF competent people too. Each of the other
> ones
> >> had two FETs/MMICs in series and then a BPF. Of cause if no nearby
> carriers
> >> are in the air it may be less of an issue.
> >>>
> >>> So designing a really good antenna and pre-amp may be a business
> >> opportunity. There are many hi IP3 MMICs available designed for GPS and
> the
> >> like purposes. SAW BPFs with <1 dB loss are available fairly cheap so
> one
> >> before the FET/MMIC with a 1 dB NF is the way to go. A DIY radome using
> >> standard materials from any hardware shop is attached.
> >>>
> >>> Bo, OZ2M
> >>>
> >>> <GPSAnt_DIY_Radome.png>_______________________________________________
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Feb  7 03:59:45 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:59:45 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g at mail.gmail.com>, Michael Wouters writes:

One thing about Bo's pipe radome which is worth pointing out is that
like me he is on 56 degrees north latitude, which just so happens to
mean that we have no GPS satellites passing directly overhead.

I can't remember the exact dimensions of the "hole" we look up into,
but eyeballing Bo's sketch, I think the endstop might just never
get in the way of any actual signals.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk  Wed Feb  7 05:18:50 2018
From: drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk (Dr. David Kirkby)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:18:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tKH=F4_FCZ64uCMvePTbkH4n2BDD+F+zxBduizDE058_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANX10hCAYDViPu2J++ORWXS12xfMyW6YGwFO1=JGf8koh+OHyA@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 February 2018 at 03:33, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONA
> SS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageNam
> e=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
>
> Listed on eBay as a L1/L2 antenna with decent specs.


I used to work in the antenna industry selling 'professional' antennas -
not aimed at the amateur radio market. Many specifications are invented to
be better than a competitor. The competitors do it too, so it is not just
one company. If you sell antennas with valid specifications, it would be
next to impossible to sell them, as competitors will have higher
specifications.

Another RF engineer, who I don't know from working with antennas, said to
me that antennas are a still a charlatan's paradise.

With antennas, probably more than any other device, I would believe the
specifications if I could verify them. Unfortunately, for that sort of
antenna, I don't know how to verify them.

If nothing else, I would ask the seller for a copy of the test reports that
back up the specifications.

I got a couple of WiFi antennas free from eBay, after proving the gain
specifications were vastly exaggerated. Depending on the phase of the moon,
the numbers that came up in last months lottery, eBay policy changes with
reguard to who pays the return shipping fee on items that are not as
described. If you can show its the seller, then in many cases they will not
wish to pay the return cost.

Dr David Kirkby Ph.D C.Eng MIET
Kirkby Microwave Ltd
Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3
6DT, United Kingdom
Registered in England and Wales as company number 08914892
http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/
Tel 01621'680100 / +44 1621-680100 <01621%20680100>

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Wed Feb  7 08:56:41 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:56:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tL5tBe5GwHcMfGrhKPNbzu+pmh8JDJUEtxWynn-VN6ywg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1518011807.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Please keep us informed I bought onBert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> Date: 2/6/18  4:03 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna. 
I kind of have to believe the specs. The two survey grade antennas I
already have, a Leica and a Trimble, both have regulators in the preamp
sections. The Leica has an 8 volt one and the Trimble has a 5 volt one. I
intend to hook it up to a variable supply and watch the current as I
increase voltage. If it has a regulator, the current should stabilize at an
input voltage just above what the internal preamp operates at. If not, it
should continue to rise. I am tempted to pry it apart, even if it risks
damage just so I can see for myself what they are using for the preamp
stages.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Feb  7 09:31:35 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:31:35 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <A5F87B81-B04E-4F97-A1D0-344C35331615@n1k.org>

Hi

Back in the era of VLF disciplined oscillators, carrier phase was the preferred approach. 
Getting that to work with 100% AM modulation took some effort ….

Bob

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 2:13 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
> 
>> MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
>> than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
>> a long integration time!
> 
> It's actually more complicated and better than that.
> 
> The low-pass filter dominates, so the falling flank at second N
> depends on the pulsewidth at second N-1.
> 
> I can't remember the numbers I got when I "sorted" DCF77 pulses depending
> on the previous pulse being short or long, but it was a fair bit better
> than 20ms.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Feb  7 09:38:26 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 09:38:26 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6@n1k.org>

Hi

It’s not the end stops that are the issue. It’s the wall of the pipe. If the dimensions in 
the sketch are roughly correct and you scale it to the dimensions of the eBay antenna,
that is a big tall pipe. Indeed “nothing overhead” would mitigate part of the issue. That magic
line runs roughly along Hadrian’s Wall in the UK. I’d bet that 80 degrees overhead would still be
an issue. 

Again, this is an extreme case and not the typical cover for a GPS antenna. 

Water wise, one might note the large piles of snow sitting on my antennas at the moment. Yes, I 
could go knock it off, but somehow it just keeps coming back. Weird how winter works …. There
is no perfect solution. 

Bob

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 3:59 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g at mail.gmail.com>, Michael Wouters writes:
> 
> One thing about Bo's pipe radome which is worth pointing out is that
> like me he is on 56 degrees north latitude, which just so happens to
> mean that we have no GPS satellites passing directly overhead.
> 
> I can't remember the exact dimensions of the "hole" we look up into,
> but eyeballing Bo's sketch, I think the endstop might just never
> get in the way of any actual signals.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Feb  7 10:07:24 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 15:07:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6@n1k.org>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <6698.1518016044@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>Water wise, one might note the large piles of snow sitting on my antennas at the moment. Yes, I 
>could go knock it off, but somehow it just keeps coming back. Weird how winter works …. There
>is no perfect solution. 

Somebody at BIPM told me that their antennas were heated and thermostatically
kept at constant temperature.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Feb  7 10:20:28 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 10:20:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <6698.1518016044@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6@n1k.org>
 <6698.1518016044@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <22D9D6E8-4E31-4697-A04A-B1651DC69004@n1k.org>

Hi

They probably have a group of people on staff to go out and dry them off after it rains …. :)

Indeed, there are a lot of pictures of heated enclosures for antennas. The debate over the
dielectric properties of the coverings goes back a long way. There are notes in the standard
databases for the antennas that came with optional covers. They have a separate data file
for the “with cover” and “without cover” versions. The discussion here is pretty much an 
replay of how the conversation has gone over the years. There is indeed a group of people
who (quite rightly) suggest that it’s not a big deal in most cases. 

Bob

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 10:07 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:
> 
>> Water wise, one might note the large piles of snow sitting on my antennas at the moment. Yes, I 
>> could go knock it off, but somehow it just keeps coming back. Weird how winter works …. There
>> is no perfect solution. 
> 
> Somebody at BIPM told me that their antennas were heated and thermostatically
> kept at constant temperature.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.


From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 07:53:56 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 12:53:56 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+4Kt68T11yVoBMKMAA=dGTNVadyXGT=ZZy7FoK3EMZ4Lg@mail.gmail.com>

Challenge accepted! And I thought this project was over :)

My gnuplot skills are quite poor, but the two attached files tell a story.
Yes there is a correlation between the length of the second and the
"lateness" of the second pulse relative to UTC. BUT - the correlation is
different between the two receivers.

So one would have to characterise the receiver you were using.

D.
[image: Inline images 2][image: Inline images 1]

On 7 February 2018 at 07:13, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_
> NNw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
>
> >MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
> >than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have
> quite
> >a long integration time!
>
> It's actually more complicated and better than that.
>
> The low-pass filter dominates, so the falling flank at second N
> depends on the pulsewidth at second N-1.
>
> I can't remember the numbers I got when I "sorted" DCF77 pulses depending
> on the previous pulse being short or long, but it was a fair bit better
> than 20ms.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>
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From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 08:35:47 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 07:35:47 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna discussion.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tKeNrm3Oq+a2Z+j4ZAHtc3wS=Yrd5NZQNmeBEa4Uxk_tw@mail.gmail.com>

Dr. David Kirkby wrote:
Another RF engineer, who I don't know from working with antennas, said to
me that antennas are a still a charlatan's paradise.

Those words rang true to me. I have yet to see a yagi type antenna that, in
practice actually produced the gain it was specified to produce. True, I
don't have a proper chamber in which to test antennas. I can only do real
world comparisons. I have a pretty large collection of various 900 mHz
antennas and on occasion, I set up my home made antenna test range and do
measurements. This consists of a 900 MHz handie talkie with power turned
down as low as it will go and PTT fastened down with a rubber band. Several
hundred feet away, on a deck attached to my house at a height of about 10
feet, I have an HP 8924C to measure levels. First, I measure a home made
groundplane for reference. Then the antennas to be tested are attached and
measured. I realize that there are multiple places where error can and does
creep in. But, I have found that when I actually try to use the antennas
tested, the results are pretty accurate for real world conditions. I
haven't found a good way just yet to test GPS antennas. There are just too
many things besides gain to be considered. Many of which are beyond my
capabilities.

From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 09:15:43 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:15:43 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+4Kt68T11yVoBMKMAA=dGTNVadyXGT=ZZy7FoK3EMZ4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAGJ4F+4Kt68T11yVoBMKMAA=dGTNVadyXGT=ZZy7FoK3EMZ4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+6jBu6T0RVfdf5Z4gfmV6NYkNKGZM9q0MHjLZb60MKOLA@mail.gmail.com>

I've updated my paper, which now contains the attached graph. (I did a
linear regression analysis to see what the correction for the receivers
should be, and I applied receiver 2's correction to both receivers to
generate this graph).

So maybe a very cheap MSF disciplined oscillator might just work!? :o


[image: Inline images 1]

On 7 February 2018 at 12:53, Deirdre O'Byrne <deirdre.dub at gmail.com> wrote:

> Challenge accepted! And I thought this project was over :)
>
> My gnuplot skills are quite poor, but the two attached files tell a story.
> Yes there is a correlation between the length of the second and the
> "lateness" of the second pulse relative to UTC. BUT - the correlation is
> different between the two receivers.
>
> So one would have to characterise the receiver you were using.
>
> D.
> [image: Inline images 2][image: Inline images 1]
>
> On 7 February 2018 at 07:13, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
>> --------
>> In message <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw at mail.
>> gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
>>
>> >MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
>> >than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have
>> quite
>> >a long integration time!
>>
>> It's actually more complicated and better than that.
>>
>> The low-pass filter dominates, so the falling flank at second N
>> depends on the pulsewidth at second N-1.
>>
>> I can't remember the numbers I got when I "sorted" DCF77 pulses depending
>> on the previous pulse being short or long, but it was a fair bit better
>> than 20ms.
>>
>> --
>> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>> incompetence.
>>
>
>
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From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 09:38:43 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:38:43 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <A5F87B81-B04E-4F97-A1D0-344C35331615@n1k.org>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <A5F87B81-B04E-4F97-A1D0-344C35331615@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+62ABzo5koW1FNEJ82g0Csgt97_UcBUJMx22CsSJJ31eQ@mail.gmail.com>

No doubt! But I'm trying to remain as inexpensive as possible.

That it might be possie to get 5ms (300 carrier periods!) from an
off-the-shelf consumer-grade component not designed for accuracy is pretty
cool IMO.


On 7 Feb 2018 14:31, "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

Hi

Back in the era of VLF disciplined oscillators, carrier phase was the
preferred approach.
Getting that to work with 100% AM modulation took some effort ….

Bob

> On Feb 7, 2018, at 2:13 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>
> --------
> In message <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_
NNw at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:
>
>> MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
>> than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have
quite
>> a long integration time!
>
> It's actually more complicated and better than that.
>
> The low-pass filter dominates, so the falling flank at second N
> depends on the pulsewidth at second N-1.
>
> I can't remember the numbers I got when I "sorted" DCF77 pulses depending
> on the previous pulse being short or long, but it was a fair bit better
> than 20ms.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From jra at febo.com  Wed Feb  7 14:45:17 2018
From: jra at febo.com (John Ackermann N8UR)
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:45:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] PulsePuppy Status
Message-ID: <d0b63b9c-0a96-5475-f8d1-a1fd08312410@febo.com>

For those who ordered a PulsePuppy oscillator carrier board from TAPR -- 
we quoted early February delivery so I wanted to give a quick update.

The boards are in hand and the kits ready to go, except... USPS managed 
to lose the box of programmed PICs on its way from my house to the TAPR 
office.  I should be getting a new batch from Mouser tomorrow, and have 
them on the way back to the office by Monday (via UPS this time).  With 
luck, we should be able to ship kits by the end of next week.

Sorry for the delay; if not for the lost package we would have shipped 
last week.

(If you're not familiar with the PulsePuppy, here's the link: 
https://www.tapr.org/kits_pp.html.  We'll have plenty of kits available 
once the PIC chip problem is solved.)

John

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Thu Feb  8 02:22:44 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 07:22:44 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <CAGJ4F+6jBu6T0RVfdf5Z4gfmV6NYkNKGZM9q0MHjLZb60MKOLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <35810.1517987590@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAGJ4F+4Kt68T11yVoBMKMAA=dGTNVadyXGT=ZZy7FoK3EMZ4Lg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGJ4F+6jBu6T0RVfdf5Z4gfmV6NYkNKGZM9q0MHjLZb60MKOLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9297.1518074564@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAGJ4F+6jBu6T0RVfdf5Z4gfmV6NYkNKGZM9q0MHjLZb60MKOLA at mail.gmail.com>, "Deirdre O'Byrne" writes:

>I've updated my paper, which now contains the attached graph. (I did a
>linear regression analysis to see what the correction for the receivers
>should be, and I applied receiver 2's correction to both receivers to
>generate this graph).

Yes, these cheap "clock-receivers" vary a lot and they are usually also
very temperature sensitive.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From chris at chriswilson.tv  Thu Feb  8 02:33:52 2018
From: chris at chriswilson.tv (Chris Wilson)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:33:52 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to "warm
	up"?
Message-ID: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>



  08/02/2018 07:31

Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
Just curious, thanks.

-- 
       Best Regards,
                   Chris Wilson.
mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv


From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 03:34:36 2018
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:34:36 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
	"warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOuLcG5tNOLPBqOcE=7zbx6YfAD++ja+B33eYHe=P_T7BSg@mail.gmail.com>

No warmup needed if the counter switches to the external reference. If
the counter uses the external reference to lock the internal one then
it is better to wait until the internal one is stable, maybe the
counter has a standby mode where it appears powered off but the
internal reference is active (usually an ovenized reference). For the
best performance (stability of trigger levels, input amplifiers and so
on) it is better to warmup the whole counter always.

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Chris Wilson <chris at chriswilson.tv> wrote:
>
>
>   08/02/2018 07:31
>
> Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
> disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
> Just curious, thanks.
>
> --
>        Best Regards,
>                    Chris Wilson.
> mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Feb  8 05:26:58 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:26:58 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
 "warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
Message-ID: <a40eb5cf-c3e8-651a-a871-25f05c41c26d@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

On 02/08/2018 08:33 AM, Chris Wilson wrote:
> 
> 
>   08/02/2018 07:31
> 
> Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
> disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
> Just curious, thanks.
> 

Well, while the internal reference is not directly steering, if it is
being locked to the external reference, at least some warming up is
needed before it is very stable.

Also, depending on the details of the counters, high resolution
interpolators may need warmup to perform well and for the autocal to
perform meaningfull values.

However, usually it's not very long times and often shaddowed by the
internal referece anyway.

Just to get a rough reading, no. If you want to trust it and trust the
noise, let it warm up for half an hour or so.

Cheers,
Magnus

From th.allgeier at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 06:23:10 2018
From: th.allgeier at gmail.com (Thomas Allgeier)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:23:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Vanguard TCXO
Message-ID: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>

Hello All,

This is for the medium-precision nuts amongst us. I have invested £14.50 
in one of these Vanguard 0.1ppm TCXO's to pimp my Siglent FG which has a 
footprint for it. It is its internal ref at 25 MHz. The swapping-in was 
simple to do and the FG works fine with it. Since it has a counter mode 
I did a quick check to show whether it was worthwile: I made it count 
the 10 MHz from my Proteus GPSDO. The Siglent reads to 1 Hz and straight 
after turn-on it went straight to 10.000000 MHz. Over about 1 day I 
never saw it more than +/-1 Hz off, and this involved a deliberate 
temperature change of just over 5 deg C, basically by having the heating 
in the room off and on. For most of the time the display sat solidly at 
10.000000.

So, to summarise, in a rough sort of way the thing lives up to its 
0.1ppm spec, at least around the 20C temperature mark. I bought it from 
a Hong Kong seller on Ebay - naturally there is always a chance that 
other devices sold with the same description/label might not perform as 
well.

I'm quite aware that the generator (DDS) suffers from other sources of 
error, which won't be improved by the clock being better, but at least 
the nominal frequencies it outputs are now going to be very close to the 
mark without the need for an external ref.

Kind regards,

Thomas.


From thomas at petig.eu  Thu Feb  8 01:48:04 2018
From: thomas at petig.eu (Thomas Petig)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 07:48:04 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Anyone have experience with this antenna?
In-Reply-To: <6698.1518016044@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <1517915717234.58145.9654@webmail3>
 <5C03965A-0C1D-48AD-9ABA-B035A5CF304F@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdkcWjXrM4qUsX8NK=3v2EtN7aESN79m0MhsJdVyGRj0Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <16A76112-0883-4BC6-9ED2-623D464FDB48@n1k.org>
 <CAGP4rdm0GbEfr=uWtWq75nmN0Rk05xAUa4v0xdiX9MxR7Dde9g@mail.gmail.com>
 <48981.1517993985@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6@n1k.org>
 <6698.1518016044@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20180208064756.2nrperu46ff2esr5@larus.petig.eu>

On Wed, Feb 07, 2018 at 03:07:24PM +0000, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> --------
> In message <875E4BC6-32C3-4724-AFCD-086553AE52C6 at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:
>
> >Water wise, one might note the large piles of snow sitting on my antennas at the moment. Yes, I
> >could go knock it off, but somehow it just keeps coming back. Weird how winter works …. There
> >is no perfect solution.
>
> Somebody at BIPM told me that their antennas were heated and thermostatically
> kept at constant temperature.
This is how you (can) do it. Here a small picture and some info:
https://www.sp.se/en/index/resources/GNSS/Sidor/default.aspx

Thomas, SA6CID

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb  8 08:19:31 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 08:19:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
 "warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
Message-ID: <9429EE48-3B14-4020-9E3F-8DE0C8B0128C@n1k.org>

Hi

It depends a *lot* on the frequency counter. An old style “just count the number of
edges” device should be good to go pretty fast. One of the “fry an egg on it” interpolating 
counters that get into the 20 ps range may well need some time to stabilize. If you 
are doing ADEV runs, a couple hours of warmup would be a good idea.

Bob

> On Feb 8, 2018, at 2:33 AM, Chris Wilson <chris at chriswilson.tv> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>  08/02/2018 07:31
> 
> Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
> disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
> Just curious, thanks.
> 
> -- 
>       Best Regards,
>                   Chris Wilson.
> mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 09:16:39 2018
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:16:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
	"warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <CAPjwOuLcG5tNOLPBqOcE=7zbx6YfAD++ja+B33eYHe=P_T7BSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
 <CAPjwOuLcG5tNOLPBqOcE=7zbx6YfAD++ja+B33eYHe=P_T7BSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4566B2C2-8B4D-4A81-A2F9-EBD94F5E4729@gmail.com>

Yes,   You have removed the reference from the warmup but the input circuits still need time to reach thermal equilibrium for most accurate results



On Feb 8, 2018, at 3:34 AM, Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at gmail.com> wrote:

No warmup needed if the counter switches to the external reference. If
the counter uses the external reference to lock the internal one then
it is better to wait until the internal one is stable, maybe the
counter has a standby mode where it appears powered off but the
internal reference is active (usually an ovenized reference). For the
best performance (stability of trigger levels, input amplifiers and so
on) it is better to warmup the whole counter always.

> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Chris Wilson <chris at chriswilson.tv> wrote:
> 
> 
>  08/02/2018 07:31
> 
> Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
> disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
> Just curious, thanks.
> 
> --
>       Best Regards,
>                   Chris Wilson.
> mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Thu Feb  8 09:31:01 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:31:01 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
 "warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <4566B2C2-8B4D-4A81-A2F9-EBD94F5E4729@gmail.com>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
 <CAPjwOuLcG5tNOLPBqOcE=7zbx6YfAD++ja+B33eYHe=P_T7BSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4566B2C2-8B4D-4A81-A2F9-EBD94F5E4729@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <913f2ae1-12cc-86ab-c740-b2a476f0a1cd@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

Well, actually there is two methods:

1) Switch reference clock - a switch or mux changes which clock is being
used.

2) Lock internal reference to external reference - a PLL lock of the
internal reference to the external reference is enabled.

For both, the counter core may need to heat up.

For the first, the internal reference heatup can be ignored completely.

For the second, the internal reference heatup cannot completely be
ignored, it takes time for it to be within lock range and the lock-in
behavior stabilizes. Still relatively quick, but an actual effect.

At the end of the day, it depends on how precise you attempt to measure.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/08/2018 03:16 PM, Scott McGrath wrote:
> Yes,   You have removed the reference from the warmup but the input circuits still need time to reach thermal equilibrium for most accurate results
> 
> 
> 
> On Feb 8, 2018, at 3:34 AM, Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No warmup needed if the counter switches to the external reference. If
> the counter uses the external reference to lock the internal one then
> it is better to wait until the internal one is stable, maybe the
> counter has a standby mode where it appears powered off but the
> internal reference is active (usually an ovenized reference). For the
> best performance (stability of trigger levels, input amplifiers and so
> on) it is better to warmup the whole counter always.
> 
>> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Chris Wilson <chris at chriswilson.tv> wrote:
>>
>>
>>  08/02/2018 07:31
>>
>> Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
>> disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before readings settle?
>> Just curious, thanks.
>>
>> --
>>       Best Regards,
>>                   Chris Wilson.
>> mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 09:33:20 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:33:20 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Does a frequency counter locked to GPS need to
	"warm up"?
In-Reply-To: <4566B2C2-8B4D-4A81-A2F9-EBD94F5E4729@gmail.com>
References: <1543479625.20180208073352@chriswilson.tv>
 <CAPjwOuLcG5tNOLPBqOcE=7zbx6YfAD++ja+B33eYHe=P_T7BSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4566B2C2-8B4D-4A81-A2F9-EBD94F5E4729@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAj-cb-Z8goxFytWF=t7iuM_1huTcfZ+WMYq8+4Li7x1yQ@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly what I have run into.
Some systems lock an internal reference to to the incoming system. So that
oven has to come up to temp. Then the trigger and interpolators need to
warm up and stabilize.

So the really right answer is what accuracy are you looking for? Because
what I mention above may simply not matter.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:16 AM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes,   You have removed the reference from the warmup but the input
> circuits still need time to reach thermal equilibrium for most accurate
> results
>
>
>
> On Feb 8, 2018, at 3:34 AM, Azelio Boriani <azelio.boriani at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> No warmup needed if the counter switches to the external reference. If
> the counter uses the external reference to lock the internal one then
> it is better to wait until the internal one is stable, maybe the
> counter has a standby mode where it appears powered off but the
> internal reference is active (usually an ovenized reference). For the
> best performance (stability of trigger levels, input amplifiers and so
> on) it is better to warmup the whole counter always.
>
> > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 8:33 AM, Chris Wilson <chris at chriswilson.tv>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >  08/02/2018 07:31
> >
> > Does  a  frequency  counter  connected  to a permanently running
> (Trimble Thunderbolt) GPS
> > disciplined frequency standard need to warm up after switch on before
> readings settle?
> > Just curious, thanks.
> >
> > --
> >       Best Regards,
> >                   Chris Wilson.
> > mailto: chris at chriswilson.tv
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From deirdre.dub at gmail.com  Wed Feb  7 21:25:44 2018
From: deirdre.dub at gmail.com (Deirdre O'Byrne)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 02:25:44 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <20180207010336.9C18D40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <deirdre.dub@gmail.com>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180207010336.9C18D40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <CAGJ4F+6x+rtZ1s5Eh_Cx=c4aNh4zACC1JU5JjH=hx7eCY6uC4A@mail.gmail.com>

Challenge accepted.

This graph is probably not too useful, for the simple reason that when the
receiver is spitting out mostly noise, the averages are going to be
massively affected.
[image: Inline images 1]

On 7 February 2018 at 01:03, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:

>
> deirdre.dub at gmail.com said:
> > MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
> > than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have
> quite
> > a long integration time!
>
> It would be interesting to see if you can find any pattern in your
> histogram
> plots.  Say, time of day.
>
> What happens if you average over 10 or 100 samples?
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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From marklgoldberg at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 08:34:06 2018
From: marklgoldberg at gmail.com (Mark Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 06:34:06 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Vanguard TCXO
In-Reply-To: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>
References: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKn+a3tFUXaHtPJG_c-tcRcNJmjCDzx-0=PpyheNEJcMZ0n9pQ@mail.gmail.com>

What is the phase noise like on the cheap TCXO? Being on frequency is far
from the only characteristic that matters. I did some research on cheap
TCXOs for Kenwood radios and found truly awful phase noise and lots of
spurs above and below the oscillator frequency. I don't know if these
characteristics are important for your unit.

One eBay source says -125 dBc/1kHz. (Should be stated as -125 dBc/Hz @ 1
kHz). That is not very good. I found the cheap TCXOs I tested actually had
worse phase noise at 15 - 20 kHz offset.

Mark
W7MLG

On Feb 8, 2018 4:24 AM, "Thomas Allgeier" <th.allgeier at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello All,
>
> This is for the medium-precision nuts amongst us. I have invested £14.50
> in one of these Vanguard 0.1ppm TCXO's to pimp my Siglent FG which has a
> footprint for it. It is its internal ref at 25 MHz. The swapping-in was
> simple to do and the FG works fine with it. Since it has a counter mode I
> did a quick check to show whether it was worthwile: I made it count the 10
> MHz from my Proteus GPSDO. The Siglent reads to 1 Hz and straight after
> turn-on it went straight to 10.000000 MHz. Over about 1 day I never saw it
> more than +/-1 Hz off, and this involved a deliberate temperature change of
> just over 5 deg C, basically by having the heating in the room off and on.
> For most of the time the display sat solidly at 10.000000.
>
> So, to summarise, in a rough sort of way the thing lives up to its 0.1ppm
> spec, at least around the 20C temperature mark. I bought it from a Hong
> Kong seller on Ebay - naturally there is always a chance that other devices
> sold with the same description/label might not perform as well.
>
> I'm quite aware that the generator (DDS) suffers from other sources of
> error, which won't be improved by the clock being better, but at least the
> nominal frequencies it outputs are now going to be very close to the mark
> without the need for an external ref.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Thomas.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From ne8s at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  8 12:50:53 2018
From: ne8s at earthlink.net (NE8S [G.W. Ko] Doc)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:50:53 -0600 (GMT-06:00)
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for WJ YIG Tuned GaAs Osc. (YTO)
Message-ID: <719037375.7013.1518112253719@wamui-bison.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

Hello, fellow time-nuts, hope all is well with all of you,

I am looking for a Watkins-Johnson WJ-5008-104 YIG Tuned GaAs Oscillator 8.00 to 12.40 GHz

or 

a Stoddart-Singer-Ailtech-Carnel Labs NM-67 Microwave Receiver for parts only.

If you can help or send me any leads the contact email is dr.ko at fcc.ms

Please keep replies, contacts and comments off-line and directed to my email provided.

Many thanks!

Doc, NE8S

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  8 12:51:50 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 09:51:50 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Vanguard TCXO
In-Reply-To: <CAKn+a3tFUXaHtPJG_c-tcRcNJmjCDzx-0=PpyheNEJcMZ0n9pQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>
 <CAKn+a3tFUXaHtPJG_c-tcRcNJmjCDzx-0=PpyheNEJcMZ0n9pQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7d85657a-a05d-c3c9-829f-dd9961336a69@earthlink.net>

On 2/8/18 5:34 AM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
> What is the phase noise like on the cheap TCXO? Being on frequency is far
> from the only characteristic that matters. I did some research on cheap
> TCXOs for Kenwood radios and found truly awful phase noise and lots of
> spurs above and below the oscillator frequency. I don't know if these
> characteristics are important for your unit.
> 
> One eBay source says -125 dBc/1kHz. (Should be stated as -125 dBc/Hz @ 1
> kHz). That is not very good. I found the cheap TCXOs I tested actually had
> worse phase noise at 15 - 20 kHz offset.
> 


Vectron
VT-702 (the first one in the list online)
-99 at 10Hz
-123 at 100Hz
-143 at 1kHz

going to Mouser and looking for the cheapest 10MHz TCXO
FOX924 (about $2) - no data
SiT5000 (about ) - -140 dBc at 1kHz, -150 dBcfrom 10k to 100k, -160 @ 1M 
(no price)
ECS -TXO-3225-100-TR ($2.71 each) - -135dBc @ 1 kHz
ASTX-H11 ($3.16) -130dBc @ 1 kHz, -158dBc @100k

FOX922CE at 16.369 MHz, -145 @ 10kHz

From leo at leobodnar.com  Thu Feb  8 14:16:36 2018
From: leo at leobodnar.com (Leo Bodnar)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:16:36 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Fast 30ps risetime pulse generator with SMA/2.92mm
	output
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1518109201.16533.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.3.1518109201.16533.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <9F48B896-7D03-4474-8B80-2A0D3D07690A@leobodnar.com>

I have promised a few people here to let them know when the microwave / SMA connector version of my fast risetime pulser is available.
It is available now: http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=124

For those not familiar with what it does - this is a pulse train generator with extremely fast risetime of 30ps (10-90% levels).
Falling edge is even faster at about 25-27ps. Pulse edge spacial length is only few mm.
Due to very fast edges its spectral content extends from 10MHz to tens of GHz.

Pulser's main purpose is testing bandwidth of time/frequency lab equipment and performing TDR/TDT.

Thanks
Leo

From marklgoldberg at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 14:49:07 2018
From: marklgoldberg at gmail.com (Mark Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:49:07 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Vanguard TCXO
In-Reply-To: <7d85657a-a05d-c3c9-829f-dd9961336a69@earthlink.net>
References: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>
 <CAKn+a3tFUXaHtPJG_c-tcRcNJmjCDzx-0=PpyheNEJcMZ0n9pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7d85657a-a05d-c3c9-829f-dd9961336a69@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAKn+a3uAMPWUuvyTw9cakz3V3hRkuQMFCdoqgkQDPUCQ_1hR=A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:51 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 2/8/18 5:34 AM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
>
>> What is the phase noise like on the cheap TCXO?Vectron
>>
>
>
> VT-702 (the first one in the list online)
> -99 at 10Hz
> -123 at 100Hz
> -143 at 1kHz
>
> going to Mouser and looking for the cheapest 10MHz TCXO
> FOX924 (about $2) - no data
> SiT5000 (about ) - -140 dBc at 1kHz, -150 dBcfrom 10k to 100k, -160 @ 1M (no
> price)
> ECS -TXO-3225-100-TR ($2.71 each) - -135dBc @ 1 kHz
> ASTX-H11 ($3.16) -130dBc @ 1 kHz, -158dBc @100k
>
> FOX922CE at 16.369 MHz, -145 @ 10kHz
>
>
>
Can you provide a link to the "list online"? I went to eBay and searched
for "Vanguard TCXO" and got a list of them with various frequencies. They
all specify -125 dBc/Hz at 1 khz, which is concerning of itself, as phase
noise generally is higher with higher frequency. They are golden however,
so there's that!

Vectron and others make decent TCXOs, better than -135 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz,
which is what I have measured. I believe none of them are what the original
poster is talking about. For a comparison, a Wenzel OCXO I am using for a
reference is in the range of -155 dBc/Hz at 1 kHz.

I am always wary when no or few specifications are provided. If you look at
manufacturer;s like Vectron, they provide lots of data, phase noise at many
frequencies, aging, etc.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

From jks at jks.com  Thu Feb  8 16:12:01 2018
From: jks at jks.com (jks at jks.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:12:01 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
Message-ID: <94B41574-64EE-4EB4-A7AA-F04E574DDD60@jks.com>

> Hal Murray wrote:

> If the two signals are not encoded identically, there should be an 
> interesting signal when one of the transmitters is off and the other is on.  
> Has anybody looked for that sort of pattern?

> Is there a map of the dead spots?  Any time-nuts live in/near one?

Yes. Here is a screenshot of roughly equal strength JJY and WWVB as received in New Zealand around 10 PM local time on a KiwiSDR.

Due to the timing reversal of the pulses from each station this results in solid carrier during the data bit times (no matter the bit combination: 00, 01, 10, 11) as the signals are added. The marker pulses every 10 seconds give a 0.6 sec gap when both stations are at reduced-carrier. And the double marker at the minute boundary gives a 1.6 sec gap with a 0.4 sec pulse in the middle. I thought this was sort of amusing.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb  8 19:39:47 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 16:39:47 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Vanguard TCXO
In-Reply-To: <CAKn+a3uAMPWUuvyTw9cakz3V3hRkuQMFCdoqgkQDPUCQ_1hR=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <52dfa32f-7a19-3598-247e-1c06d330bd36@gmail.com>
 <CAKn+a3tFUXaHtPJG_c-tcRcNJmjCDzx-0=PpyheNEJcMZ0n9pQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <7d85657a-a05d-c3c9-829f-dd9961336a69@earthlink.net>
 <CAKn+a3uAMPWUuvyTw9cakz3V3hRkuQMFCdoqgkQDPUCQ_1hR=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fd4314ac-c3b3-b8c6-9ea8-e902bce613f7@earthlink.net>

On 2/8/18 11:49 AM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:51 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 2/8/18 5:34 AM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
>>
>>> What is the phase noise like on the cheap TCXO?Vectron
>>>
>>
>>
>> VT-702 (the first one in the list online)
>> -99 at 10Hz
>> -123 at 100Hz
>> -143 at 1kHz
>>
>> going to Mouser and looking for the cheapest 10MHz TCXO
>> FOX924 (about $2) - no data
>> SiT5000 (about ) - -140 dBc at 1kHz, -150 dBcfrom 10k to 100k, -160 @ 1M (no
>> price)
>> ECS -TXO-3225-100-TR ($2.71 each) - -135dBc @ 1 kHz
>> ASTX-H11 ($3.16) -130dBc @ 1 kHz, -158dBc @100k
>>
>> FOX922CE at 16.369 MHz, -145 @ 10kHz
>>
>>
>>
> Can you provide a link to the "list online"?

I just went to digikey and searched for TCXO and 10 MHz



> I am always wary when no or few specifications are provided. If you look at
> manufacturer;s like Vectron, they provide lots of data, phase noise at many
> frequencies, aging, etc.
> 

it's what you pay for - if the spec says -135 at 10kHz, and that's all, 
then that's what they test. - that's cheaper.

A $100 oscillator will tend to have a lot more data than a $2 one <grin>

At some point, you just BUY a batch of oscillators and test them yourself.


From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Thu Feb  8 22:40:23 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 20:40:23 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for Datum TymServe 2000 (TS2000) manual
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyVv4dvHNiAdUneJpZVXwvZrs9Bj+9QHB5A1=FUEUdULVg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Time-Nuts,
After a very long journey trying to figure out the correct cable
configuration between the AcuTime GPS antenna (receiver) and a Datum
TS2000 I now have it working.  Now I am in need of a manual so I can
talk over the serial port.  The protocol is apparently not the same as
the TS2100.

Any help would be appreciated.

I'm more than happy to share the cable schematic if anyone needs it.
It would be the same for Bancomm bc627 and 635/7 (?) as well as the
TS2000.  If you have any of these units you could probably use many
different Trimble receivers (Resolution-T for instance) with RS-422
converter (though I have not tried it - yet).

Thanks in advance for any help.

Skip Withrow

From time at radio.sent.com  Thu Feb  8 23:55:05 2018
From: time at radio.sent.com (Bill Byrom)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 22:55:05 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] True Time Nut Mission: NASA's Deep Space Atomic
 Clock (DSAC)
In-Reply-To: <1490160983.2330138.919335000.64FBA10B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <8E90FB6F-B6DE-4AB8-AA23-7522B172B7EA@icloud.com>
 <1490160983.2330138.919335000.64FBA10B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <1518152105.408578.1264876528.3463B9F8@webmail.messagingengine.com>

After the successful Falcon Heavy launch earlier this week, it appears that the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) is now scheduled to go up in June 2018 on a Falcon Heavy carrying the US Air Force STP-2 test payloads.
https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/nasa-tests-atomic-clock-for-deep-space-navigation

For a fun video about this project suitable for non-time-nuts, see:
https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/sammy-the-second.html

--
Bill Byrom N5BB

On Tue, Mar 21, 2017, at 11:36 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
> NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock test mission is moving toward a late-2017
> launch (don't all projects slip?). The DSAC was just integrated with the
> spacecraft. The clock uses a ~40.5 GHz hyperfine transition of mercury
> ions. This steers an ovenized crystal USO (Ultra Stable Oscillator) from
> FEI with 1-100 sec stability <2e-13 and drift <1e-10/day. A GPS receiver
> is also on board:
> https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?feature=6784
> 
> NASA information about the DSAC applications at:
> https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/index.html
> 
> Expected DSAC performance (2014 paper). This paper claims an estimated
> Allan Deviation of <1e-14 (perhaps 3e-15) at a one day interval when in
> space:
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260036335_Expected_Performance_of_the_Deep_Space_Atomic_Clock_Mission
> 
> 
> Here are the latest two papers I can find (from Feb 2016):
> 
> ** Deep Space Atomic Clock Technology Demonstration Mission Onboard
> Navigation Analog Experiment:
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293648952_Deep_Space_Atomic_Clock_Technology_Demonstration_Mission_Onboard_Navigation_Analog_Experiment
> 
> ** Preliminary Investigation of Onboard Orbit Determination using Deep
> Space Atomic Clock Based Radio Tracking:
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293648187_Preliminary_Investigation_of_Onboard_Orbit_Determination_using_Deep_Space_Atomic_Clock_Based_Radio_Tracking
> 
> --
> Bill Byrom N5BB
> 
> ----- Original message -----
> From: Gregory Beat <w9gb at icloud.com>
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] True Time Nut Mission: NASA's Deep Space Atomic
> Clock (DSAC)
> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:31:26 -0600
> 
> Upcoming Event: Deep Space Atomic Clock
> Jan. 14, 2016, at 7 p.m. PT (10 p.m. ET, 0300 UTC)
> You can watch this event via USTREAM:  http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL2
> 
> Speakers: 
> Todd Ely, DSAC Principal Investigator, JPL
> Allen H. Farrington, DSAC Project Manager, JPL
> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/clock_overview.html#.VpWMgK9OKK0
> Atomic clocks are an integral, yet almost invisible component of modern
> life. 
> For space exploration, they have been the foundational frequency
> standard for NASA's Deep Space Network. NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock
> (DSAC) Technology Demonstration Mission, led by the Jet Propulsion
> Laboratory, has been maturing the latest Atomic Clock technologies into
> a smaller package, suitable for installation on a variety of deep space
> probes to enhance navigation precision and gravity science across the
> solar system.
> ============
> DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016.  
> Satellite being built by Surrey Satellite Technologies USA, Englewood,
> CO
> 
> 
> Sent from iPad Air
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Fri Feb  9 08:54:39 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 05:54:39 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] True Time Nut Mission: NASA's Deep Space Atomic
 Clock (DSAC)
In-Reply-To: <1518152105.408578.1264876528.3463B9F8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <8E90FB6F-B6DE-4AB8-AA23-7522B172B7EA@icloud.com>
 <1490160983.2330138.919335000.64FBA10B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1518152105.408578.1264876528.3463B9F8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <51fbed2b-6c70-956f-5a82-96a8d030e15c@earthlink.net>

On 2/8/18 8:55 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
> After the successful Falcon Heavy launch earlier this week, it appears that the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) is now scheduled to go up in June 2018 on a Falcon Heavy carrying the US Air Force STP-2 test payloads.
> https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/nasa-tests-atomic-clock-for-deep-space-navigation
> 
> For a fun video about this project suitable for non-time-nuts, see:
> https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/sammy-the-second.html
> 

"The Deep Space Atomic Clock is being readied for flight next year. 
Moving hardware from the laboratory to space meant conquering a number 
of technological challenges."

A number of really hard technological challenges. Aside from taking a 
bench full of gear and squeezing it down to a few liters.

Note the date on an earlier note:
"DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016"




>> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:31:26 -0600
>>
>> Upcoming Event: Deep Space Atomic Clock
>> Jan. 14, 2016, at 7 p.m. PT (10 p.m. ET, 0300 UTC)
>> You can watch this event via USTREAM:  http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL2
>>
>> Speakers:
>> Todd Ely, DSAC Principal Investigator, JPL
>> Allen H. Farrington, DSAC Project Manager, JPL
>> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/clock_overview.html#.VpWMgK9OKK0
>> Atomic clocks are an integral, yet almost invisible component of modern
>> life.
>> For space exploration, they have been the foundational frequency
>> standard for NASA's Deep Space Network. NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock
>> (DSAC) Technology Demonstration Mission, led by the Jet Propulsion
>> Laboratory, has been maturing the latest Atomic Clock technologies into
>> a smaller package, suitable for installation on a variety of deep space
>> probes to enhance navigation precision and gravity science across the
>> solar system.
>> ============
>> DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016.
>> Satellite being built by Surrey Satellite Technologies USA, Englewood,
>> CO
>>
>>

From time at radio.sent.com  Fri Feb  9 14:19:20 2018
From: time at radio.sent.com (Bill Byrom)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 13:19:20 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] True Time Nut Mission: NASA's Deep Space Atomic
 Clock (DSAC)
In-Reply-To: <51fbed2b-6c70-956f-5a82-96a8d030e15c@earthlink.net>
References: <8E90FB6F-B6DE-4AB8-AA23-7522B172B7EA@icloud.com>
 <1490160983.2330138.919335000.64FBA10B@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <1518152105.408578.1264876528.3463B9F8@webmail.messagingengine.com>
 <51fbed2b-6c70-956f-5a82-96a8d030e15c@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1518203960.1801915.1265629752.71447739@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Yeah -- delays happen. The DSAC is part of the US Air Force STP-2 program. STP-2 launch was awarded to SpaceX in December, 2012. But the Falcon Heavy only completed it's first launch earlier this week, and instead of sending a customer payload they send a Tesla to past the orbit of Mars. 

Correcting my earlier post, the new launch date for STP-2 appears to be "no earlier than" June, 2018. I'm relying on this source for launch estimates:
https://spaceflightnow.com/launch-schedule/
--
Bill Byrom N5BB

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018, at 7:54 AM, jimlux wrote:
> On 2/8/18 8:55 PM, Bill Byrom wrote:
> > After the successful Falcon Heavy launch earlier this week, it appears that the Deep Space Atomic Clock (DSAC) is now scheduled to go up in June 2018 on a Falcon Heavy carrying the US Air Force STP-2 test payloads.
> > https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/2018/nasa-tests-atomic-clock-for-deep-space-navigation
> > 
> > For a fun video about this project suitable for non-time-nuts, see:
> > https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/sammy-the-second.html
> > 
> 
> "The Deep Space Atomic Clock is being readied for flight next year. 
> Moving hardware from the laboratory to space meant conquering a number 
> of technological challenges."
> 
> A number of really hard technological challenges. Aside from taking a 
> bench full of gear and squeezing it down to a few liters.
> 
> Note the date on an earlier note:
> "DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2016 17:31:26 -0600
> >>
> >> Upcoming Event: Deep Space Atomic Clock
> >> Jan. 14, 2016, at 7 p.m. PT (10 p.m. ET, 0300 UTC)
> >> You can watch this event via USTREAM:  http://www.ustream.tv/NASAJPL2
> >>
> >> Speakers:
> >> Todd Ely, DSAC Principal Investigator, JPL
> >> Allen H. Farrington, DSAC Project Manager, JPL
> >> http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/tdm/clock/clock_overview.html#.VpWMgK9OKK0
> >> Atomic clocks are an integral, yet almost invisible component of modern
> >> life.
> >> For space exploration, they have been the foundational frequency
> >> standard for NASA's Deep Space Network. NASA's Deep Space Atomic Clock
> >> (DSAC) Technology Demonstration Mission, led by the Jet Propulsion
> >> Laboratory, has been maturing the latest Atomic Clock technologies into
> >> a smaller package, suitable for installation on a variety of deep space
> >> probes to enhance navigation precision and gravity science across the
> >> solar system.
> >> ============
> >> DSAC is scheduled for launch in mid-2016.
> >> Satellite being built by Surrey Satellite Technologies USA, Englewood,
> >> CO
> >>
> >>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From w9gb at icloud.com  Fri Feb  9 16:31:32 2018
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 15:31:32 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for Datum TymServe 2000 (TS2000) manual
Message-ID: <6490D5EF-FCDA-432E-AC95-4C2D365A774B@icloud.com>

Skip -
The Trimble Acutime 2000 outdoor antenna 
http://www.n4iqt.com/trimble/Acutime2000.pdf
looks identical to the Trimble Palisade GPS antenna.
http://dc2light.co.uk/PALISADE-Manual.zip

Mark, GM4ISM had surplus Palisade antennas, at one time.
He noted differential RS-422 configuration and TSIP output.  
He has Trimble programs on his web page.
http://dc2light.co.uk/GPS_ref.htm

Andy, G4JNT wrote a PIC conversion (Trimble—> NEMA) for Mark’s project.
http://www.g4jnt.com/pics.htm

Palisade uses Deutsch IMC-200 12-pin circular connector, part number: IMC26-2212
http://uk.farnell.com/deutsch/imc26-2212x/plug-in-line-12-way/dp/1019239

greg, w9gb

==Original Message==
From: Skip Withrow <skip.withrow at gmail.com>
To: time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for Datum TymServe 2000 (TS2000) manual

Hello Time-Nuts,
After a very long journey trying to figure out the correct cable
configuration between the AcuTime GPS antenna (receiver) and a Datum
TS2000 I now have it working.  Now I am in need of a manual so I can
talk over the serial port.  The protocol is apparently not the same as
the TS2100.

I'm more than happy to share the cable schematic if anyone needs it.
It would be the same for Bancomm bc627 and 635/7 (?) as well as the
TS2000.  If you have any of these units you could probably use many
different Trimble receivers (Resolution-T for instance) with RS-422
converter (though I have not tried it - yet).

Thanks in advance for any help.
Skip Withrow
==

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 16:43:55 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 15:43:55 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>

To those who doubted that the antenna was actually a 3.3 to 18 volt design,
it seems you were correct. Today, I hooked it up to a variable power supply
and slowly raised the DC voltage fed to the antenna. It began to pull
current at about 2.9 volts and at 3.3 volts, took about 40 mA. I continued
to slowly raise the voltage. At about 7.5 volts, the current suddenly
dropped to 10 mA. At just below 12 volts, it suddenly increased to 80 mA
and the supply went into current limit. I increased the current limit to
130 mA and repeated the exercise. Everything went as above until I reached
12 volts and the current went to 130 mA and the supply went into current
limit. Lowering the voltage didn't lower the current. I disconnected it,
waited a minute, and tried again. Yep, shorted. It would have worked well
with the T bolt, but would have blown anyway if I tried to use it with my
12 volt supply and bias T. I guess I will get inside it somehow to see if
it can be repaired. My first attempt ended in failure. I guess I need a
bigger screwdriver with which to pry the top off. I am going to contact the
seller and tell them it was not as advertised. I kind of doubt that will
get me anything, but it won't hurt to try. There is a saying about
experience being a cruel teacher. You get the results first, and the lesson
after. Oh well.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb  9 17:37:25 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:37:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5344D596-90A1-4564-837C-7C66337C86E5@n1k.org>

Hi

Is it labeled 3.3 to 18V on the antenna?

Bob

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 4:43 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> To those who doubted that the antenna was actually a 3.3 to 18 volt design,
> it seems you were correct. Today, I hooked it up to a variable power supply
> and slowly raised the DC voltage fed to the antenna. It began to pull
> current at about 2.9 volts and at 3.3 volts, took about 40 mA. I continued
> to slowly raise the voltage. At about 7.5 volts, the current suddenly
> dropped to 10 mA. At just below 12 volts, it suddenly increased to 80 mA
> and the supply went into current limit. I increased the current limit to
> 130 mA and repeated the exercise. Everything went as above until I reached
> 12 volts and the current went to 130 mA and the supply went into current
> limit. Lowering the voltage didn't lower the current. I disconnected it,
> waited a minute, and tried again. Yep, shorted. It would have worked well
> with the T bolt, but would have blown anyway if I tried to use it with my
> 12 volt supply and bias T. I guess I will get inside it somehow to see if
> it can be repaired. My first attempt ended in failure. I guess I need a
> bigger screwdriver with which to pry the top off. I am going to contact the
> seller and tell them it was not as advertised. I kind of doubt that will
> get me anything, but it won't hurt to try. There is a saying about
> experience being a cruel teacher. You get the results first, and the lesson
> after. Oh well.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk  Fri Feb  9 18:00:08 2018
From: drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk (Dr. David Kirkby)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 23:00:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANX10hDYW_Kd3zOo=Y+w8Z6M_K7if0Nx26cOE9BoW4gcwOb+uw@mail.gmail.com>

On 9 February 2018 at 21:43, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> To those who doubted that the antenna was actually a 3.3 to 18 volt design,
> it seems you were correct. Today, I hooked it up to a variable power supply
> and slowly raised the DC voltage fed to the antenna. It began to pull
> current at about 2.9 volts and at 3.3 volts, took about 40 mA. I continued
> to slowly raise the voltage. At about 7.5 volts, the current suddenly
> dropped to 10 mA. At just below 12 volts, it suddenly increased to 80 mA
> and the supply went into current limit. I increased the current limit to
> 130 mA and repeated the exercise. Everything went as above until I reached
> 12 volts and the current went to 130 mA and the supply went into current
> limit. Lowering the voltage didn't lower the current. I disconnected it,
> waited a minute, and tried again. Yep, shorted. It would have worked well
> with the T bolt, but would have blown anyway if I tried to use it with my
> 12 volt supply and bias T. I guess I will get inside it somehow to see if
> it can be repaired. My first attempt ended in failure. I guess I need a
> bigger screwdriver with which to pry the top off. I am going to contact the
> seller and tell them it was not as advertised. I kind of doubt that will
> get me anything, but it won't hurt to try. There is a saying about
> experience being a cruel teacher. You get the results first, and the lesson
> after. Oh well.
>


You should not open it up, but open an eBay case for item not as described.
If it said it would do 3-18 V, but does not, then its not as described, and
you should get your money back. The chances are the seller will not want to
arrange collection, so you will probably get to keep it anyway. But you
should get a refund before opening it up.

Dave

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Fri Feb  9 19:04:08 2018
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 00:04:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Receiving the MSF time signal on cheap radio modules
In-Reply-To: <5FD079A8-38C3-48D2-B4AC-D56286581046@n1k.org>
References: <CAGJ4F+6Nvic=RoUH7EozhKLCDziBTorMGu0iKj-sK6iXjw+zsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <22AD8862F609446EB4C1F6231EA82077@pc52>
 <CAGJ4F+697SyXwm3yWG-XczN4zF7r2RAmXzAcEm=dhaqBJc_NNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <5FD079A8-38C3-48D2-B4AC-D56286581046@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <87219f00-942d-e936-04f5-43b6de9f6cda@philpem.me.uk>

On 07/02/18 01:16, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> MSF disciplined oscillator?! I don't trust these receivers to any better
>> than about the 20ms mark, so such a disciplined oscillator would have quite
>> a long integration time!
> 
> Once upon a time, that *was* how people did disciplined oscillators. Part of the
> answer to “how?” is that their target accuracies were not as tight as what we now
> think of as normal. 

I was under the impression the Radio Four carrier (198kHz ex 200kHz) was
the old "frequency standard of choice" in the UK, prior to GPS.

I don't recall anyone using MSF for much other than "what time is it, to
maybe the nearest second?".
Though I do recall John Becker of EPE magazine did a nifty little
millennium countdown clock using MSF as a base.

-- 
Phil.
philpem at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From lists at philpem.me.uk  Fri Feb  9 19:08:01 2018
From: lists at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 00:08:01 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <sg8k7dhmvivprc1mn8ahrmmutp5j25j7mj@4ax.com>
References: <3C40ABEF-040F-48DA-B27A-5644A1A87AA4@icloud.com>
 <620D86EE-A344-455C-88E3-95B53CA21C2C@n1k.org>
 <sg8k7dhmvivprc1mn8ahrmmutp5j25j7mj@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <41a36af5-4be7-4ffc-d709-fb76962049f7@philpem.me.uk>

On 06/02/18 22:21, Angus via time-nuts wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:54:23 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> 3) it’s designed for continuous outdoor use  (connector is well shielded etc)
> 
> That's something that has always baffled me - the number of antennas
> which the manufacturers claim are suitable for long term outdoor use
> that have connectors which are impossible to seal without large
> quantities of sealant or whatever.

Generally speaking, you can seal most RF connectors quite nicely with a
few layers of self-amalgamating tape and a layer of PVC tape over the
top of that (to protect from UV).

Practically speaking, if the antenna is mounted on the top of a pole,
>95% of the rainwater is going to run down the side of the antenna and
drip off the edge (assuming something shaped roughly like a PCTel 26dB
timing antenna). The seals are more use if the antenna is mounted on a
flat surface.


-- 
Phil.
lists at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/

From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Fri Feb  9 19:41:47 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 16:41:47 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: Message from Philip Pemberton <lists@philpem.me.uk> of "Sat,
 10 Feb 2018 00:08:01 GMT."
 <41a36af5-4be7-4ffc-d709-fb76962049f7@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <20180210004147.B0C8F40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


lists at philpem.me.uk said:
> Generally speaking, you can seal most RF connectors quite nicely with a few
> layers of self-amalgamating tape and a layer of PVC tape over the top of
> that (to protect from UV). 

Many years ago, I picked up a chunk of scrap the local cable TV installer had 
left on the ground underneath the utility pole out in front of my house.  It 
was a chunk of industrial strength shrink wrap with a layer of goop on the 
inside.

Is that stuff available in small quantities?  Would the antenna withstand the 
necessary heat?

How do hams seal antenna connectors?


-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb  9 19:49:30 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 19:49:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <20180210004147.B0C8F40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <20180210004147.B0C8F40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <0E245730-990D-4AAA-92D1-91F8AA1B6C11@n1k.org>

Hi

There are tapes designed for waterproofing things like coax connectors.

Bob

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 7:41 PM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> lists at philpem.me.uk said:
>> Generally speaking, you can seal most RF connectors quite nicely with a few
>> layers of self-amalgamating tape and a layer of PVC tape over the top of
>> that (to protect from UV). 
> 
> Many years ago, I picked up a chunk of scrap the local cable TV installer had 
> left on the ground underneath the utility pole out in front of my house.  It 
> was a chunk of industrial strength shrink wrap with a layer of goop on the 
> inside.
> 
> Is that stuff available in small quantities?  Would the antenna withstand the 
> necessary heat?
> 
> How do hams seal antenna connectors?
> 
> 
> -- 
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From artgodwin at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 19:52:36 2018
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 00:52:36 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <20180210004147.B0C8F40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
References: <lists@philpem.me.uk>
 <41a36af5-4be7-4ffc-d709-fb76962049f7@philpem.me.uk>
 <20180210004147.B0C8F40605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
Message-ID: <CALiMYrtm1oaCOQ0aHrFFh7PxyVBMyCYR7Y5-p9z666Y8BWO7MA@mail.gmail.com>

It's called 'adhesive lined heatshrink'. Yes, it's available, though a reel
of the Good Stuff (Raychem) costs a small fortune.
They also make custom boots to fit various standard connectors.

Probably best bought as surplus or from a trusted seller who bought reels
from military, autosport or aircraft industries. The short lengths
available on ebay are often inferior grades. A heatshrinking tape is also
available.

Hams tend to use self-amalgamating tape, as Phil recommended.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:41 AM, Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
wrote:

>
> lists at philpem.me.uk said:
> > Generally speaking, you can seal most RF connectors quite nicely with a
> few
> > layers of self-amalgamating tape and a layer of PVC tape over the top of
> > that (to protect from UV).
>
> Many years ago, I picked up a chunk of scrap the local cable TV installer
> had
> left on the ground underneath the utility pole out in front of my house.
> It
> was a chunk of industrial strength shrink wrap with a layer of goop on the
> inside.
>
> Is that stuff available in small quantities?  Would the antenna withstand
> the
> necessary heat?
>
> How do hams seal antenna connectors?
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From k8yumdoober at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 19:37:16 2018
From: k8yumdoober at gmail.com (Dana Whitlow)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 18:37:16 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CANX10hDYW_Kd3zOo=Y+w8Z6M_K7if0Nx26cOE9BoW4gcwOb+uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+N7qrMEWL9Uxjuda8-hv_Gt-CEzwpd9ExE_=-XZ9SHug@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANX10hDYW_Kd3zOo=Y+w8Z6M_K7if0Nx26cOE9BoW4gcwOb+uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADHrwpc42AD3TNANMHm-KdyiUh4YHCPMbDt6SToB=b9unOPLRw@mail.gmail.com>

I would surmise that the antenna has (or rather had) a protection network
to protect against voltage spikes or surges.  Your description of events
seems consistent with an triggered SCR crowbar circuit, and the 2nd
attempt at the higher current limit shorted the SCR.  Note that this may
not have been a regular SCR, but perhaps a NPN/PNP pair hooked up
to emulate an SCR.   If you can find evidence of such a circuit, it may
be replaceable or simply removable, leaving the antenna fully functional.

Assuming this works, do keep the supply voltage down to something
reasonable like 5 or 6 volts.   Excess voltage will result in unneeded
heat generation in whatever regulator the antenna uses, shortening
its life.

Dana



On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:00 PM, Dr. David Kirkby <
drkirkby at kirkbymicrowave.co.uk> wrote:

> On 9 February 2018 at 21:43, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > To those who doubted that the antenna was actually a 3.3 to 18 volt
> design,
> > it seems you were correct. Today, I hooked it up to a variable power
> supply
> > and slowly raised the DC voltage fed to the antenna. It began to pull
> > current at about 2.9 volts and at 3.3 volts, took about 40 mA. I
> continued
> > to slowly raise the voltage. At about 7.5 volts, the current suddenly
> > dropped to 10 mA. At just below 12 volts, it suddenly increased to 80 mA
> > and the supply went into current limit. I increased the current limit to
> > 130 mA and repeated the exercise. Everything went as above until I
> reached
> > 12 volts and the current went to 130 mA and the supply went into current
> > limit. Lowering the voltage didn't lower the current. I disconnected it,
> > waited a minute, and tried again. Yep, shorted. It would have worked well
> > with the T bolt, but would have blown anyway if I tried to use it with my
> > 12 volt supply and bias T. I guess I will get inside it somehow to see if
> > it can be repaired. My first attempt ended in failure. I guess I need a
> > bigger screwdriver with which to pry the top off. I am going to contact
> the
> > seller and tell them it was not as advertised. I kind of doubt that will
> > get me anything, but it won't hurt to try. There is a saying about
> > experience being a cruel teacher. You get the results first, and the
> lesson
> > after. Oh well.
> >
>
>
> You should not open it up, but open an eBay case for item not as described.
> If it said it would do 3-18 V, but does not, then its not as described, and
> you should get your money back. The chances are the seller will not want to
> arrange collection, so you will probably get to keep it anyway. But you
> should get a refund before opening it up.
>
> Dave
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  9 21:41:03 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 02:41:03 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

3M has a product called Cold Shrink tubing.  It is designed to seal high voltage, etc cables in buried installations.  It is a silicone (?) rubber stretched over a collapsable polyethylene core.  You run the cable through the core and pull on a tab which unwinds the core and the stretched silicone collapses and forms a water tight seal.

I have not used it to seal cables, but have used to replace polyurethane coatings on printer platens (Tek TDR thermal printers and HP9100 calculator electrostatic printers) that have turned to goo.

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Fri Feb  9 21:31:20 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 20:31:20 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+U6Pz+4shv0g5rhWc0B4MSWxhp=YOuRYdVZ09_9CRBLg@mail.gmail.com>

Bob wrote:
Is it labeled 3.3 to 18V on the antenna?

No, the writing on the antenna is all Chinese. The specs published on eBay
state that it is.

From planophore at aei.ca  Sat Feb 10 07:43:04 2018
From: planophore at aei.ca (Graham)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 12:43:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <845e6b52-a133-c4f2-ca66-ebfd7dd4e0e4@aei.ca>

for many years I used the self amalgamating rubber tape like Coax Seal 
http://coaxseal.com/products/ with a couple of layers of good quality 
vinyl electrical such as Scotch super 33+ tape over top.

Scotch also sells a product called Linerless Rubber Splicing Tape 130C 
which is similar in use to Coax Seal which I now use in preference to 
Coax Seal. Nothing wrong with the Coax Seal product but I can get the 
Scotch products at the local Home Depot.

However, for the past 10 years or so I have been using double wall 
adhesive lined heat shrink tubing. My local electronics and electrical 
supplies carry this product and it is not that expensive. This I find 
both quicker to install, neater, more reliable, and much easier to 
remove than the rubber tape followed by vinyl tape method.

As Mark noted, there are also products for use in direct burial 
applications but I have no first hand experience with those specific 
products. I have buried splices for my own use by using a layer of 
double wall heat shrink with adhesive followed by a layer linerless 
rubber splicing tap and vinyl tape. I have not had an occasion to dig up 
any of my spliced cables so I don't know how they have held up but so 
far they have not failed in any way that I can tell.

cheers, Graham ve3gtc


On 2018-02-10 02:41, Mark Sims wrote:
> 3M has a product called Cold Shrink tubing.  It is designed to seal high voltage, etc cables in buried installations.  It is a silicone (?) rubber stretched over a collapsable polyethylene core.  You run the cable through the core and pull on a tab which unwinds the core and the stretched silicone collapses and forms a water tight seal.
>
> I have not used it to seal cables, but have used to replace polyurethane coatings on printer platens (Tek TDR thermal printers and HP9100 calculator electrostatic printers) that have turned to goo.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb 10 10:17:17 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 10:17:17 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+U6Pz+4shv0g5rhWc0B4MSWxhp=YOuRYdVZ09_9CRBLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+U6Pz+4shv0g5rhWc0B4MSWxhp=YOuRYdVZ09_9CRBLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29C1FF1A-01F0-490F-BDBC-1F372AAA5BFD@n1k.org>

Hi

Ok, the antenna in the pictures on the listing *does* have labeling in English 
and it sure looks like it says 3.3 to 18V on the antenna. Certainly you have 
(and the rest of us may soon have) a case for “not as shown” in terms of 
what you got (and we get).

Bob

> On Feb 9, 2018, at 9:31 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob wrote:
> Is it labeled 3.3 to 18V on the antenna?
> 
> No, the writing on the antenna is all Chinese. The specs published on eBay
> state that it is.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 09:07:51 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 08:07:51 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+LMGODneePWpSX3rBiehjz6Kc+2BXtMC6V=BxshNnDfQ@mail.gmail.com>

I opened a "Not as listed" case and heard back from the seller. They said
that the antenna is definitely 3.3 to 18 volts and have sold several that
are in operation. They wanted to know specifically how I tested the
antenna, why I thought it shorted, and if I actually ever hooked it to a
GPS receiver. I answered as best I could but haven't heard anything
further. eBay seems to like pictures or videos. Though problematic, I
suppose I could take some pictures. I offered to do so in my response to
the seller. They do seem a bit more responsive to buyer complaints than in
previous years. I recently ordered a 64 Gb micro SD card from a US based
seller. I got a message from eBay stating that they had removed the listing
but that everything should be OK. I never received the SD card, and after a
month, checked PayPal and saw that I had been charged for it. I contacted
eBay and they refunded my money the next day.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb 11 10:24:30 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 10:24:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+LMGODneePWpSX3rBiehjz6Kc+2BXtMC6V=BxshNnDfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+LMGODneePWpSX3rBiehjz6Kc+2BXtMC6V=BxshNnDfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A831D139-4719-4E39-8FAA-514479B32FD3@n1k.org>

Hi

Well, good news / bad news I guess. The seller is at least responding to your
input. They also did not come back with something about “there is no voltage
spec”. It’s quite possible that they are the 5th person in a chain of sellers and
a substitution got made (unknown to them) at seller 3. 

I’d hook up a power supply, a current meter and a couple of clip leads. Shoot a
cell phone picture at 5V and one a second one at 10V. That’s all it should take. 
If you have more than one DVM, that would make things even more clear. 

Bob

> On Feb 11, 2018, at 9:07 AM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I opened a "Not as listed" case and heard back from the seller. They said
> that the antenna is definitely 3.3 to 18 volts and have sold several that
> are in operation. They wanted to know specifically how I tested the
> antenna, why I thought it shorted, and if I actually ever hooked it to a
> GPS receiver. I answered as best I could but haven't heard anything
> further. eBay seems to like pictures or videos. Though problematic, I
> suppose I could take some pictures. I offered to do so in my response to
> the seller. They do seem a bit more responsive to buyer complaints than in
> previous years. I recently ordered a 64 Gb micro SD card from a US based
> seller. I got a message from eBay stating that they had removed the listing
> but that everything should be OK. I never received the SD card, and after a
> month, checked PayPal and saw that I had been charged for it. I contacted
> eBay and they refunded my money the next day.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Sun Feb 11 12:44:09 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 11:44:09 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>

They have issued a refund. The seller said that my antenna was defective.
This is kind of a strange outfit. They are in Russia selling Chinese goods,
shipped from China.  Since I don't have to return it, I will disassemble it
to see what went bad. I replied that if he could assure me that it would
work on 12 volts, I might order another.

From rgdevoe at gmail.com  Mon Feb 12 16:52:41 2018
From: rgdevoe at gmail.com (Ralph Devoe)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:52:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
Message-ID: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>

I've been comparing the ADEV produced by the sine-wave fitter (discussed
last November) with that of a counter-based system. See the enclosed plot.
We ran the test in Leo Hollberg's lab at Stanford, using a 5071a Cesium
standard and my own 5065a Rubidium standard. Leo first measured the ADEV
using a Keysight 53230a counter with a 100 second gate time. We then
substituted the fitter for the counter and took 10,000 points at 20 second
intervals. The two systems produce the same ADEV all the way down to the
5x10(-14) level where (presumably) temperature and pressure variations make
the Rb wobble around a bit.

The revised paper has been published online at Rev. Sci. Instr.
-------------- next part --------------
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From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 12 17:30:48 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:30:48 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D50431DF6ADF49CE8D10BFAD3873EF88@pc52>

Hi Ralph,

Nice test. Two comments.

1) Your 5065A is working really well; is it one of Corby's "super" ones? What sort of environmental controls did you have during the run, if any. How long had the 5065A been powered up before you ran the test?

2) Is there a reason you didn't or couldn't make simultaneous measurements using both counters? That would have allowed an interesting study of the residuals. Plots of phase, frequency, spectrum, and ADEV of the residuals provides insight into how well the two counters match. This would also probably remove the awkward divergence of your two ADEV plots past tau 1 hour.

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Devoe" <rgdevoe at gmail.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:52 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting


> I've been comparing the ADEV produced by the sine-wave fitter (discussed
> last November) with that of a counter-based system. See the enclosed plot.
> We ran the test in Leo Hollberg's lab at Stanford, using a 5071a Cesium
> standard and my own 5065a Rubidium standard. Leo first measured the ADEV
> using a Keysight 53230a counter with a 100 second gate time. We then
> substituted the fitter for the counter and took 10,000 points at 20 second
> intervals. The two systems produce the same ADEV all the way down to the
> 5x10(-14) level where (presumably) temperature and pressure variations make
> the Rb wobble around a bit.
> 
> The revised paper has been published online at Rev. Sci. Instr.



From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb 12 21:05:10 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 21:05:10 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5350134D-6495-4047-9E67-5EFB334C142F@n1k.org>

Hi

Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the modern Trimble
survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger point) 
as an antenna supply voltage. 

Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna. 

Bob

> On Feb 11, 2018, at 12:44 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> They have issued a refund. The seller said that my antenna was defective.
> This is kind of a strange outfit. They are in Russia selling Chinese goods,
> shipped from China.  Since I don't have to return it, I will disassemble it
> to see what went bad. I replied that if he could assure me that it would
> work on 12 volts, I might order another.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cautery at montac.com  Sun Feb 11 09:49:11 2018
From: cautery at montac.com (Clay Autery)
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 08:49:11 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+LMGODneePWpSX3rBiehjz6Kc+2BXtMC6V=BxshNnDfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+LMGODneePWpSX3rBiehjz6Kc+2BXtMC6V=BxshNnDfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2e99182e-0223-44f7-833a-389fbd3c50dd@montac.com>

I would be extremely surprised if ebay does not rule in your favor.
I've only had ONE case EVER opened against me, and it was CLEARLY not a 
valid case, but eBay still made me give the buyer his money back IN FULL 
to include shipping.
eBay almost always picks the buyer over the seller.

73,
Clay, KY5G


On 02/11/18 08:07, John Green wrote:
> I opened a "Not as listed" case and heard back from the seller. They said
> that the antenna is definitely 3.3 to 18 volts and have sold several that
> are in operation. They wanted to know specifically how I tested the
> antenna, why I thought it shorted, and if I actually ever hooked it to a
> GPS receiver. I answered as best I could but haven't heard anything
> further. eBay seems to like pictures or videos. Though problematic, I
> suppose I could take some pictures. I offered to do so in my response to
> the seller. They do seem a bit more responsive to buyer complaints than in
> previous years. I recently ordered a 64 Gb micro SD card from a US based
> seller. I got a message from eBay stating that they had removed the listing
> but that everything should be OK. I never received the SD card, and after a
> month, checked PayPal and saw that I had been charged for it. I contacted
> eBay and they refunded my money the next day.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 08:00:29 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 07:00:29 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>

Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the
modern Trimble
survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
point)
as an antenna supply voltage.

Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.

After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first. The
antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are made
to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB terminator.
Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB connector,
then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We tried
to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they refused.
We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and just
doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to time,
which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification from
China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 13 10:58:56 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:58:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D548C3B-4640-4A5A-A08D-141F649EF904@n1k.org>

Hi

China does a lot of things through a marketplace process. Lots of guys with
piles of this or that. Any sort of product you get in (to them) small volume 
likely goes through this kind of arrangement. Buying OCXO’s and other 
timing gear is every bit as vulnerable to the “this one today, something 
different tomorrow” process that results. 

This sort of process is also vulnerable to the “grabbed the wrong box” problem.
The good ones are in this box and the others are in that box. I’m in a hurry 
and ….

It’s well worth remembering that we *are* (or should be)  paying a very low price 
for most of this stuff. It is unfortunate that paying a higher price does not 
seem to guarantee a better outcome. 

Bob

> On Feb 13, 2018, at 8:00 AM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the
> modern Trimble
> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> point)
> as an antenna supply voltage.
> 
> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
> 
> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first. The
> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are made
> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB terminator.
> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB connector,
> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We tried
> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they refused.
> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and just
> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to time,
> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification from
> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
> 
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 11:06:54 2018
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:06:54 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any supplier
name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to Google
anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often find
the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.

On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green" <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the
> modern Trimble
> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> point)
> as an antenna supply voltage.
>
> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
>
> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first. The
> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are made
> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB terminator.
> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB connector,
> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We tried
> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they refused.
> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and just
> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to time,
> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification from
> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 13 11:17:36 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 11:17:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>

Hi

That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
spot something that allows a search to proceed. 

Bob

> On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
> who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any supplier
> name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to Google
> anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often find
> the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
> 
> On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green" <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the
>> modern Trimble
>> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
>> point)
>> as an antenna supply voltage.
>> 
>> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
>> 
>> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
>> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
>> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first. The
>> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
>> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
>> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
>> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are made
>> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB terminator.
>> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB connector,
>> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
>> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
>> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We tried
>> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they refused.
>> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and just
>> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to time,
>> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
>> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification from
>> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
>> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
>> 
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 12:06:58 2018
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:06:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzRUXysxL+2X2Au7+JqOfjC_7ZyXLgDD26oWjNrqFM4eCw@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed but stock numbers on boxes and packets  are usually Arabic numerals
or a barcode. It's also possible the seller used a stock image which can be
copied and pasted into Google web search to track down the maker or at
least a distributor who has data.

On 13 Feb 2018 16:18, "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
> pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
> spot something that allows a search to proceed.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
> > who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any
> supplier
> > name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to
> Google
> > anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often
> find
> > the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
> >
> > On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green" <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of
> the
> >> modern Trimble
> >> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> >> point)
> >> as an antenna supply voltage.
> >>
> >> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
> >>
> >> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> >> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> >> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first.
> The
> >> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> >> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> >> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> >> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are
> made
> >> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB
> terminator.
> >> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB
> connector,
> >> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> >> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> >> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We
> tried
> >> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they
> refused.
> >> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and
> just
> >> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to
> time,
> >> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> >> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification
> from
> >> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> >> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
> >>
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> >> Virus-free.
> >> www.avast.com
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 12:07:48 2018
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 17:07:48 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzQciN3L3sMyHtzpzFMLJpxSSbApEJU20fbUAXj1n6LnoA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, and Google has a handy translation tool which does a reasonable job of
translating Chinese text from a jpg image so that's also worth a try.

On 13 Feb 2018 16:18, "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
> pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
> spot something that allows a search to proceed.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
> > who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any
> supplier
> > name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to
> Google
> > anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often
> find
> > the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
> >
> > On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green" <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of
> the
> >> modern Trimble
> >> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
> >> point)
> >> as an antenna supply voltage.
> >>
> >> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
> >>
> >> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
> >> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
> >> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first.
> The
> >> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
> >> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
> >> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
> >> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are
> made
> >> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB
> terminator.
> >> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB
> connector,
> >> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
> >> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
> >> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We
> tried
> >> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they
> refused.
> >> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and
> just
> >> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to
> time,
> >> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
> >> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification
> from
> >> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
> >> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
> >>
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
> >> Virus-free.
> >> www.avast.com
> >> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
> >> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
> >> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> >> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 13 13:04:25 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:04:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <CAN7ULzRUXysxL+2X2Au7+JqOfjC_7ZyXLgDD26oWjNrqFM4eCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
 <CAN7ULzRUXysxL+2X2Au7+JqOfjC_7ZyXLgDD26oWjNrqFM4eCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ED7085DE-CD9E-4261-9514-D991AFCBE449@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Feb 13, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Agreed but stock numbers on boxes and packets  are usually Arabic numerals
> or a barcode. It's also possible the seller used a stock image which can be
> copied and pasted into Google web search to track down the maker or at
> least a distributor who has data.

The seller did post a number of images for the part that was listed. The gotcha is
that the part that arrived is not labeled the same way as the part that was listed.
Since the device also has issues, the big question is if it has any connection to
the part in the listing at all. 

The seller seems to have been doing GPS stuff for a while. He also has a very
good approval rating. My guess is: this isn’t the first time he’s seen a bump in 
the road. I’d bet he’s got the ability to check this and that out to see what is what. 
The seller *does* matter when you buy this stuff. That’s true no matter what you
are getting. No matter how good they are, problems do come up. The question
is always how well they address them. We tend to dump pretty hard on these 
guys. I’m not sure that’s always warrantied. 

Bob

> 
> On 13 Feb 2018 16:18, "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> That can be a bit harder if the labels are all in Chinese. Maybe posting
>> pictures of the label? That way those (not I) who can read Chinese might
>> spot something that allows a search to proceed.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Feb 13, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sounds like a drop shipping operation, they've found a supplier in China
>>> who is willing to send goods either in plain wrapping without any
>> supplier
>>> name or the name of the agent who's selling it. It can be useful to
>> Google
>>> anything that looks like a part number on the packaging, you'll often
>> find
>>> the main wholesaler or even the manufacturer.
>>> 
>>> On 13 Feb 2018 15:48, "John Green" <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Bob wrote:  Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of
>> the
>>>> modern Trimble
>>>> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger
>>>> point)
>>>> as an antenna supply voltage.
>>>> 
>>>> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna.
>>>> 
>>>> After getting my refund, I sent the seller a message saying that I would
>>>> buy another if he could assure me it would work at 12 volts. He replied
>>>> that he needed to get his hands on a couple and do some testing first.
>> The
>>>> antenna that I received seems to be different to the one pictured in the
>>>> eBay listing. At least the labels are different. I get the feeling he is
>>>> kind of a third party dealing with someone in China who is wholesaling
>>>> antennas made by someone else. Who really knows what spec. these are
>> made
>>>> to, or by who. In my former place of employment, we made an SMB
>> terminator.
>>>> Basically, a 75 ohm resistor soldered across the pins of an SMB
>> connector,
>>>> then molded in black plastic. We bought the connectors from a Chinese
>>>> supplier who supplied them in individual plastic bags. We had to cut the
>>>> parts out of the bags before processing, which added a labor step. We
>> tried
>>>> to get the supplier to sell them to us packaged in bulk, but they
>> refused.
>>>> We decided that they were actually buying them from someone else and
>> just
>>>> doing a passthru. The connectors themselves would change from time to
>> time,
>>>> which caused problems in molding, and sometimes caused the electrical
>>>> performance to degrade. Getting parts to reliably meet a specification
>> from
>>>> China can be a problem. I can't even imagine the issues that could arise
>>>> when you try to source an assembly, or completed product.
>>>> 
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>>>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
>>>> Virus-free.
>>>> www.avast.com
>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_
>>>> source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link>
>>>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From rgdevoe at gmail.com  Tue Feb 13 13:46:03 2018
From: rgdevoe at gmail.com (Ralph Devoe)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 10:46:03 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
Message-ID: <CAFb3=2BM5e83f_wSinEE6C=tYSPeJLgVEENoQcJXGrWx8=F+Vw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Tom,

to reply to your questions:

(1) Yes, I was also surprized at how good the 5065a is. It's a stock unit
that has apparently never been repaired or modified. I'm guessing it was
turned off for a long time (the seller said it was stored in an unheated
container in Alaska).  Leo's lab is very quiet, it's in a subbasement of a
new building with good  temperature control. The 5065a was installed there
in November and had run a month before the tests. Before that it was on for
> 6 months  in my shop.

(2)  The simultaneous test would be much better, but we were worried that
digital noise from the fitter would leak back through the power splitter
into the 53230a and provide noise. The ADC chip in the fitter is connected
directly to the input line using a wideband Minicircuits transformer, and
might be noisy. An isolation amplifier would fix this. Still this is a good
suggestion and  we should try this out.

The fitter is running continuously and we have about a dozen 200K second
runs stored. I have one of Corby's barometric chips and a data logger, so
we trying to correlate the temperature and pressure with the results.

Ralph

From bill.iaxs at pobox.com  Wed Feb 14 00:23:29 2018
From: bill.iaxs at pobox.com (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 23:23:29 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <ED7085DE-CD9E-4261-9514-D991AFCBE449@n1k.org>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
 <CAN7ULzRUXysxL+2X2Au7+JqOfjC_7ZyXLgDD26oWjNrqFM4eCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ED7085DE-CD9E-4261-9514-D991AFCBE449@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <D626756486FE4D2895FCAD58BF70949D@system072>

Learned tonight that J. P. Morgan got his start by buying 25 K defective
rifles for %3.50 each and selling them to the Army for $25 each. You
have no reason to trust a listing.

Bill Hawkins

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
kb8tq
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 12:04 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.

Hi


> On Feb 13, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Agreed but stock numbers on boxes and packets  are usually Arabic 
> numerals or a barcode. It's also possible the seller used a stock 
> image which can be copied and pasted into Google web search to track 
> down the maker or at least a distributor who has data.

The seller did post a number of images for the part that was listed. The
gotcha is that the part that arrived is not labeled the same way as the
part that was listed.
Since the device also has issues, the big question is if it has any
connection to the part in the listing at all. 

The seller seems to have been doing GPS stuff for a while. He also has a
very good approval rating. My guess is: this isn't the first time he's
seen a bump in the road. I'd bet he's got the ability to check this and
that out to see what is what. 
The seller *does* matter when you buy this stuff. That's true no matter
what you are getting. No matter how good they are, problems do come up.
The question is always how well they address them. We tend to dump
pretty hard on these guys. I'm not sure that's always warrantied. 

Bob



From jimlux at earthlink.net  Wed Feb 14 20:06:17 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 17:06:17 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
Message-ID: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3

At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock, 
and a lot more references..

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Wed Feb 14 21:46:41 2018
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 20:46:41 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,

Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
traditional rack enclosure?
Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.

-- 
Chris Caudle



From listertim at gmail.com  Wed Feb 14 21:51:10 2018
From: listertim at gmail.com (Tim Lister)
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 19:51:10 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAMT1iitryDwMVHgArYfrz8nro5QKhS0sn6vY9bVaWQ=_6Upmww@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 14, 2018 19:47, "Chris Caudle" <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:

On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,

Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
traditional rack enclosure?
Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.


Yes. From the Nature article text:
"The transportable 87Sr lattice clock is (compared with laboratory clocks)
designed to be compact, with robust optical parts12
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. The physics
package is less than 0.6 m3 in size, and we use laser breadboards with
mechanical stress-resistant fibre couplers21
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR21>. All
components except the reference cavity of the interrogation laser are
rigidly mounted in a car trailer (size 2.2 m × 3 m × 2.2 m), and vibration
isolation is provided by rubber dampers. The trailer interior is
temperature stabilized, while the small volume of the trailer hinders air
exchange and generates hot spots with more than 10 K temperature rise.
However, the optics and the physics package are placed apart and shielded
from these and are stable to within 0.4 K after an initial temperature rise
of about 1 K. The transportable ultrastable reference cavity for the clock
interrogation lasers is rigidly mounted to endure transport12
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. It was placed
next to the trailer to avoid its performance being degraded by vibrations
induced in the trailer’s air conditioning system. The vibration amplitudes
in the trailer are a factor of ten larger than under typical laboratory
conditions, leading to a corresponding increase in clock instability. A
reference resonator with lower acceleration sensitivity or an active
feed-forward system may in the future remedy this inconvenience22
<https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR22>."

Cheers,
Tim


--
Chris Caudle


_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From holrum at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 15 00:39:29 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:39:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm header on the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of the Adafruit Ultimate GPS.   There a couple of minor pin differences... the Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is used as the Furuno antenna power connection.  The Furuno can be soldered to the board or a female connector could be installed.  

I'm getting ready to order a few boards.  If interested, contact me off list.
-------------- next part --------------
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From michaeljwouters at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 00:42:10 2018
From: michaeljwouters at gmail.com (Michael Wouters)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:42:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <CAGP4rdnjZYgXgw6vjAsK+MM55CeQr13u6HqrQZBWncfPFce26g@mail.gmail.com>

There's a photo here:

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.07360

Cheers
Michael

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 at 1:47 pm, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:

> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
> > At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
>
> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
> traditional rack enclosure?
> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
>
> --
> Chris Caudle
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From michaeljwouters at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 01:02:13 2018
From: michaeljwouters at gmail.com (Michael Wouters)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:02:13 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGP4rdnjZYgXgw6vjAsK+MM55CeQr13u6HqrQZBWncfPFce26g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <CAGP4rdnjZYgXgw6vjAsK+MM55CeQr13u6HqrQZBWncfPFce26g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGP4rdn4yDhv1N0W7Z++Ay_4OJU=YMCM=EryBiJngeYovWHSjA@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, missed the last character in the URL:

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.073601

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 at 4:42 pm, Michael Wouters <michaeljwouters at gmail.com>
wrote:

> There's a photo here:
>
> https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.07360
>
> Cheers
> Michael
>
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 at 1:47 pm, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
>> > At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
>>
>> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
>> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
>> traditional rack enclosure?
>> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
>> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
>>
>> --
>> Chris Caudle
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>

From ewkehren at aol.com  Thu Feb 15 05:59:30 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:59:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>

Talking about Furuno has any one looked at the GT-87. I have known about it for years but found no way to buy some now DigiKey has them for $ 100, Buerklin in Germany for half that price. Saw tooth is +- 1.7 nsec we are not going to bother with correction. We are in the process to lay out a board any recommendations are appreciated
Bert Kehren 
 
In a message dated 2/15/2018 12:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, holrum at hotmail.com writes:

 
 I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm header on the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of the Adafruit Ultimate GPS. There a couple of minor pin differences... the Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is used as the Furuno antenna power connection. The Furuno can be soldered to the board or a female connector could be installed. 

I'm getting ready to order a few boards. If interested, contact me off list._______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there. 
  1 Attached Images


From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 06:33:00 2018
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:33:00 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <CAGP4rdn4yDhv1N0W7Z++Ay_4OJU=YMCM=EryBiJngeYovWHSjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <CAGP4rdnjZYgXgw6vjAsK+MM55CeQr13u6HqrQZBWncfPFce26g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGP4rdn4yDhv1N0W7Z++Ay_4OJU=YMCM=EryBiJngeYovWHSjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A0FBA2DC-04D5-489E-A606-57A9D5724416@gmail.com>

Well it will fit in a C-130 or any commercial cargo plane by the looks of the trailer.    So it could be a flying clock.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Feb 15, 2018, at 1:02 AM, Michael Wouters <michaeljwouters at gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry, missed the last character in the URL:

https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.073601

On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 at 4:42 pm, Michael Wouters <michaeljwouters at gmail.com>
wrote:

> There's a photo here:
> 
> https://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.118.07360
> 
> Cheers
> Michael
> 
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2018 at 1:47 pm, Chris Caudle <chris at chriscaudle.org>
> wrote:
> 
>>> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
>>> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
>> 
>> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
>> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
>> traditional rack enclosure?
>> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
>> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
>> 
>> --
>> Chris Caudle
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 15 08:53:23 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 05:53:23 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
Message-ID: <a8cd18a1-8f42-66ef-9984-5acd9b0b8850@earthlink.net>

On 2/14/18 6:46 PM, Chris Caudle wrote:
> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
>> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
> 
> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
> traditional rack enclosure?
> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
> 
nor will tvb's brother-in-law be wearing it as a wristwatch
http://www.leapsecond.com/pages/atomic-bill/

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 15 09:03:24 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:03:24 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <CAMT1iitryDwMVHgArYfrz8nro5QKhS0sn6vY9bVaWQ=_6Upmww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <CAMT1iitryDwMVHgArYfrz8nro5QKhS0sn6vY9bVaWQ=_6Upmww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46917959-2ef1-3c9c-bd3e-78e2b2003a84@earthlink.net>

On 2/14/18 6:51 PM, Tim Lister wrote:
> On Feb 14, 2018 19:47, "Chris Caudle" <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
>> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
> 
> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
> traditional rack enclosure?
> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
> 
> 
> Yes. From the Nature article text:
> "The transportable 87Sr lattice clock is (compared with laboratory clocks)
> designed to be compact, with robust optical parts12
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. The physics
> package is less than 0.6 m3 in size, and we use laser breadboards with
> mechanical stress-resistant fibre couplers21
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR21>. All
> components except the reference cavity of the interrogation laser are
> rigidly mounted in a car trailer (size 2.2 m × 3 m × 2.2 m), and vibration
> isolation is provided by rubber dampers. The trailer interior is
> temperature stabilized, while the small volume of the trailer hinders air
> exchange and generates hot spots with more than 10 K temperature rise.
> However, the optics and the physics package are placed apart and shielded
> from these and are stable to within 0.4 K after an initial temperature rise
> of about 1 K. The transportable ultrastable reference cavity for the clock
> interrogation lasers is rigidly mounted to endure transport12
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. It was placed
> next to the trailer to avoid its performance being degraded by vibrations
> induced in the trailer’s air conditioning system. The vibration amplitudes
> in the trailer are a factor of ten larger than under typical laboratory
> conditions, leading to a corresponding increase in clock instability. A
> reference resonator with lower acceleration sensitivity or an active
> feed-forward system may in the future remedy this inconvenience22
> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR22>."
> 


We have discussed the desirability of suitable caves for operation of 
high quality clocks many times on this list.
Clearly this is another instance.

With respect to flying such things in space - this is the continual 
challenge - DSAC (the trapped mercury ion clock) was a couple of benches 
in a special time keeping lab when I first saw it, oh, a decade ago?. 
It will fly later this year and it's probably about the size of an 
airplane carry-on.
https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/deep-space-atomic-clock-dsac/

Cold Atom Laboratory basically takes several optical benches operated by 
a team of post-docs that makes Bose Einstein Condensates (BEC) and turns 
it into a box the size of a dorm refrigerator that goes "ping" when you 
press a button and makes a BEC (in either Rb or K, as you choose).

https://coldatomlab.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/

Just as a rule of thumb, I've found that it takes about 10-20 times the 
cost to get from "benchtop prototype"(TRL 5) to "flyable unit" (TRL 6), 
as it cost to get from idea to benchtop prototype.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 15 09:04:28 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:04:28 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <27ff618f-8097-fd19-e48a-e17baaea1ac5@cksd.de>
References: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5350134D-6495-4047-9E67-5EFB334C142F@n1k.org>
 <27ff618f-8097-fd19-e48a-e17baaea1ac5@cksd.de>
Message-ID: <6A663CC4-264B-4A9E-989C-14C9D5D91F73@n1k.org>

Hi

There are a number of reasons to believe that these antennas are worse
than the typical “telecom GPS” antenna for L1 only duty driving a TBolt. 
If you are going to do L1 / L2 work with something like a NetRS, then indeed
you will need a dual band antenna. These (the $99 ones)  are the lowest cost 
“new in box” L1 / L2 antennas that I have seen. One would *guess* that their
close to horizon multi path rejection is not quite as good as a Trimble Zephyr,
a Novatel Pinwheel, or a choke ring. The ones from China
 also don’t cost $1800 to $6000 when new either …

Bob

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 4:31 AM, Christoph Kopetzky <ck at cksd.de> wrote:
> 
> Moin,
> are in the meantime any experiences with these gps antennas from the china seller (ms_geo)?
> I found two type of them from the same seller:
> 
> 1) https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 <https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-L1-L2-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-antenna/162718512935?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649>
> this one is the 3.3 - 18 V version with 5 dB antenna gain and 42 dB LNA gain for  appr. 100 US$
> 
> and 
> 
> 2) https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-machine-control-antenna/162710405447 <https://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Precision-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BeiDou-RTK-CORS-survey-machine-control-antenna/162710405447>
> this one has 3.3 - 10 V  voltage requirement and nearly the same gain values but 85 US$ 
> 
> Does anyone have one oth them up and running?
> 
> Are they much more better as a Symmetricom 58532A antenna ore the puck head variant?
> 
> If yes I would give it also a try but the shipment time from goods from china are very high. Here to Germany there are timeframes from four to eight weeks normal. :(
> 
> But the price 
>  -
> Chris
> Am 13.02.2018 um 03:05 schrieb Bob kb8tq:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Sitting here casually reading the data sheets for some of the modern Trimble
>> survey receivers - they have gone to 7.2V (just below your 7.5V trigger point) 
>> as an antenna supply voltage. 
>> 
>> Who knows what that might imply relative to this antenna. 
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Feb 11, 2018, at 12:44 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> <mailto:wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> They have issued a refund. The seller said that my antenna was defective.
>>> This is kind of a strange outfit. They are in Russia selling Chinese goods,
>>> shipped from China.  Since I don't have to return it, I will disassemble it
>>> to see what went bad. I replied that if he could assure me that it would
>>> work on 12 volts, I might order another.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <mailto:time-nuts at febo.com>
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts <https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com <mailto:time-nuts at febo.com>
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts <https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 15 09:05:36 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:05:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Team of physicists repeats tvb Project GREAT
In-Reply-To: <46917959-2ef1-3c9c-bd3e-78e2b2003a84@earthlink.net>
References: <3a5eccdb-5503-c0b2-e642-bba2e4f38f26@earthlink.net>
 <57cb75e4e7056dcffd8ebda1fc4379c6.squirrel@email.powweb.com>
 <CAMT1iitryDwMVHgArYfrz8nro5QKhS0sn6vY9bVaWQ=_6Upmww@mail.gmail.com>
 <46917959-2ef1-3c9c-bd3e-78e2b2003a84@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <15C5D9C1-9272-4F0B-99E8-464310A28A10@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 9:03 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 2/14/18 6:51 PM, Tim Lister wrote:
>> On Feb 14, 2018 19:47, "Chris Caudle" <chris at chriscaudle.org> wrote:
>> On Wed, February 14, 2018 7:06 pm, jimlux wrote:
>>> At substantially more expense, and with an experimental lattice clock,
>> Does that schematic figure in the paper imply that the "transportable"
>> strontium and ytterbium clocks are built into trailers instead of the
>> traditional rack enclosure?
>> Actually now that I look more closely it looks like maybe two trailers.
>> Doesn't seem like something that Jim is going to be flying any time soon.
>> Yes. From the Nature article text:
>> "The transportable 87Sr lattice clock is (compared with laboratory clocks)
>> designed to be compact, with robust optical parts12
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. The physics
>> package is less than 0.6 m3 in size, and we use laser breadboards with
>> mechanical stress-resistant fibre couplers21
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR21>. All
>> components except the reference cavity of the interrogation laser are
>> rigidly mounted in a car trailer (size 2.2 m × 3 m × 2.2 m), and vibration
>> isolation is provided by rubber dampers. The trailer interior is
>> temperature stabilized, while the small volume of the trailer hinders air
>> exchange and generates hot spots with more than 10 K temperature rise.
>> However, the optics and the physics package are placed apart and shielded
>> from these and are stable to within 0.4 K after an initial temperature rise
>> of about 1 K. The transportable ultrastable reference cavity for the clock
>> interrogation lasers is rigidly mounted to endure transport12
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR12>. It was placed
>> next to the trailer to avoid its performance being degraded by vibrations
>> induced in the trailer’s air conditioning system. The vibration amplitudes
>> in the trailer are a factor of ten larger than under typical laboratory
>> conditions, leading to a corresponding increase in clock instability. A
>> reference resonator with lower acceleration sensitivity or an active
>> feed-forward system may in the future remedy this inconvenience22
>> <https://www.nature.com/articles/s41567-017-0042-3#ref-CR22>."
> 
> 
> We have discussed the desirability of suitable caves for operation of high quality clocks many times on this list.
> Clearly this is another instance.

Search the archives for “swimming pool full of mercury” for one go around on this.

Bob



> 
> With respect to flying such things in space - this is the continual challenge - DSAC (the trapped mercury ion clock) was a couple of benches in a special time keeping lab when I first saw it, oh, a decade ago?. It will fly later this year and it's probably about the size of an airplane carry-on.
> https://www.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/deep-space-atomic-clock-dsac/
> 
> Cold Atom Laboratory basically takes several optical benches operated by a team of post-docs that makes Bose Einstein Condensates (BEC) and turns it into a box the size of a dorm refrigerator that goes "ping" when you press a button and makes a BEC (in either Rb or K, as you choose).
> 
> https://coldatomlab.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/
> 
> Just as a rule of thumb, I've found that it takes about 10-20 times the cost to get from "benchtop prototype"(TRL 5) to "flyable unit" (TRL 6), as it cost to get from idea to benchtop prototype.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 15 09:13:25 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 06:13:25 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <6A663CC4-264B-4A9E-989C-14C9D5D91F73@n1k.org>
References: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5350134D-6495-4047-9E67-5EFB334C142F@n1k.org>
 <27ff618f-8097-fd19-e48a-e17baaea1ac5@cksd.de>
 <6A663CC4-264B-4A9E-989C-14C9D5D91F73@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <3b09e661-5e32-3b22-499d-476b413cbf65@earthlink.net>

On 2/15/18 6:04 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> There are a number of reasons to believe that these antennas are worse
> than the typical “telecom GPS” antenna for L1 only duty driving a TBolt.
> If you are going to do L1 / L2 work with something like a NetRS, then indeed
> you will need a dual band antenna. These (the $99 ones)  are the lowest cost
> “new in box” L1 / L2 antennas that I have seen. One would *guess* that their
> close to horizon multi path rejection is not quite as good as a Trimble Zephyr,
> a Novatel Pinwheel, or a choke ring. The ones from China
>   also don’t cost $1800 to $6000 when new either …
> 


one could probably improvise something that serves as a choke ring, or 
elevation fence.  The infamous JPL Helibowl is pretty simple, and has 
pretty good rejection of signals near the horizon.

See, e.g. Page 143 in GPS/GNSS Antennas, by Rao.  (I found it on google

https://books.google.com/books?id=nL-YFWLQrPIC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=helibowl+antenna&source=bl&ots=U-7Y3TMIQw&sig=D4xZVMmv73XkCAH_8KkMegMnxX4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbjLGTjKjZAhVM7WMKHdYPC5sQ6AEIMTAB#v=onepage&q=helibowl%20antenna&f=false

Oddly, it cites to C.Y Cheng, Numerical Electromagnetic Modeling of a 
Small Aperture Helical-Fed Reflector Antenna, Masters thesis, Ohio 
University, Aug 1998.

Good luck finding that one on-line

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 15 09:41:01 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 09:41:01 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test results.
In-Reply-To: <3b09e661-5e32-3b22-499d-476b413cbf65@earthlink.net>
References: <CAGRb8tKQx2HUxvwXyb3qXqz5SnZEf72t_LE5-pTmp+0LW4C2iA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5350134D-6495-4047-9E67-5EFB334C142F@n1k.org>
 <27ff618f-8097-fd19-e48a-e17baaea1ac5@cksd.de>
 <6A663CC4-264B-4A9E-989C-14C9D5D91F73@n1k.org>
 <3b09e661-5e32-3b22-499d-476b413cbf65@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E3320621-7EA4-433C-9C15-C6EB19AEE74E@n1k.org>

Hi

As with any antenna mods, the issue isn’t so much doing them as proving that
what you did had this or that effect. A lot of what you are paying for on the fancy
antennas is the fact that indeed they went through some sort of validation process
on top of the design process. 

An equally valid point is that the standard “telecom” antennas likely are no great
thing for low angle multi path either. That is one of several reasons we tend to 
like cranking up the elevation mask on our TBolts. 

If you are going for the “I want something that does it all” approach. You would want
an antenna that does at least L1 / L2 / L5 and covers the GPS and Glonas parts of 
the bands. So far, those have not shown up as $100 new in box items ….. Given
that the price of gear covering all of that is still “a bit high” (even as a home brew 
SDR), I’m not sure it matters a whole lot at this point. 

Bob

> On Feb 15, 2018, at 9:13 AM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 2/15/18 6:04 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> There are a number of reasons to believe that these antennas are worse
>> than the typical “telecom GPS” antenna for L1 only duty driving a TBolt.
>> If you are going to do L1 / L2 work with something like a NetRS, then indeed
>> you will need a dual band antenna. These (the $99 ones)  are the lowest cost
>> “new in box” L1 / L2 antennas that I have seen. One would *guess* that their
>> close to horizon multi path rejection is not quite as good as a Trimble Zephyr,
>> a Novatel Pinwheel, or a choke ring. The ones from China
>>  also don’t cost $1800 to $6000 when new either …
> 
> 
> one could probably improvise something that serves as a choke ring, or elevation fence.  The infamous JPL Helibowl is pretty simple, and has pretty good rejection of signals near the horizon.
> 
> See, e.g. Page 143 in GPS/GNSS Antennas, by Rao.  (I found it on google
> 
> https://books.google.com/books?id=nL-YFWLQrPIC&pg=PA143&lpg=PA143&dq=helibowl+antenna&source=bl&ots=U-7Y3TMIQw&sig=D4xZVMmv73XkCAH_8KkMegMnxX4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbjLGTjKjZAhVM7WMKHdYPC5sQ6AEIMTAB#v=onepage&q=helibowl%20antenna&f=false
> 
> Oddly, it cites to C.Y Cheng, Numerical Electromagnetic Modeling of a Small Aperture Helical-Fed Reflector Antenna, Masters thesis, Ohio University, Aug 1998.
> 
> Good luck finding that one on-line
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From rdarlington at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 13:55:27 2018
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Bob Darlington)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 11:55:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>

I bought some of the Furuno GT-8736 boards for $35 a pop, qty 1 (or 2 as
was the case).  And was quoted at $26.91 a pop if I buy 100.   If there's
interest, I'm happy to coordinate a group buy at cost.  Just paid off that
credit card yesterday so why not?   If there are more desirable boards from
Furuno, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

-Bob

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:59 AM, ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> Talking about Furuno has any one looked at the GT-87. I have known about
> it for years but found no way to buy some now DigiKey has them for $ 100,
> Buerklin in Germany for half that price. Saw tooth is +- 1.7 nsec we are
> not going to bother with correction. We are in the process to lay out a
> board any recommendations are appreciated
> Bert Kehren
>
> In a message dated 2/15/2018 12:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> holrum at hotmail.com writes:
>
>
>  I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm header on
> the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of the
> Adafruit Ultimate GPS. There a couple of minor pin differences... the
> Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is used
> as the Furuno antenna power connection. The Furuno can be soldered to the
> board or a female connector could be installed.
>
> I'm getting ready to order a few boards. If interested, contact me off
> list._______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>   1 Attached Images
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 15 17:40:08 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 17:40:08 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <D626756486FE4D2895FCAD58BF70949D@system072>
References: <CAGRb8tJoAvFuCgWvf8AgkUGDyRFra=ZDjrQQQERzSx3GfRuFXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAN7ULzTzhg7s1AeczeipZTkeYhoKhu50uGHbAjyvmQSQB9OSYw@mail.gmail.com>
 <994C07FC-DD91-426A-98C9-8A0C66497C9C@n1k.org>
 <CAN7ULzRUXysxL+2X2Au7+JqOfjC_7ZyXLgDD26oWjNrqFM4eCw@mail.gmail.com>
 <ED7085DE-CD9E-4261-9514-D991AFCBE449@n1k.org>
 <D626756486FE4D2895FCAD58BF70949D@system072>
Message-ID: <226B4C5A-89B0-43D7-8FC8-9AB0A349A9EE@n1k.org>

Hi

Just so people don’t get to down on eBay antennas: 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antcom-Active-L1-L2-Choke-Ring-Antenna-Item-123GM1215A-XT-1-AUTOFARM-AGLEADER/302630180910?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antcom-Active-L1-L2-Choke-Ring-Antenna-Item-123GM1215A-XT-1-AUTOFARM-AGLEADER/302630180910?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649>

Was indeed brand new in box. The pictures don’t quite give credit to the branding
on the antenna. It was shipped directly from the outfit that put the great big
letters on it. Price was a bit less than eBay would have you think, but still a bit
more than the ones from China. No idea if they will be selling any more. 

An L1 / L2 choke ring is a much better bet pattern wise than the patch antennas. It also is a
great big heavy monster of a thing to mount somewhere ….

On the down side, like a lot of what you see, it’s GPS only. At least by spec, it will 
not pass the full Glonass L1 or L2  bands. That may be why it turned up as “brand new but 
we’re unloading it”.  What the passband *really* looks like ….. we’ll see ….

Bob

> On Feb 14, 2018, at 12:23 AM, Bill Hawkins <bill.iaxs at pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> Learned tonight that J. P. Morgan got his start by buying 25 K defective
> rifles for %3.50 each and selling them to the Army for $25 each. You
> have no reason to trust a listing.
> 
> Bill Hawkins
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> kb8tq
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 12:04 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
> 
> Hi
> 
> 
>> On Feb 13, 2018, at 12:06 PM, Clint Jay <cjaysharp at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Agreed but stock numbers on boxes and packets  are usually Arabic 
>> numerals or a barcode. It's also possible the seller used a stock 
>> image which can be copied and pasted into Google web search to track 
>> down the maker or at least a distributor who has data.
> 
> The seller did post a number of images for the part that was listed. The
> gotcha is that the part that arrived is not labeled the same way as the
> part that was listed.
> Since the device also has issues, the big question is if it has any
> connection to the part in the listing at all. 
> 
> The seller seems to have been doing GPS stuff for a while. He also has a
> very good approval rating. My guess is: this isn't the first time he's
> seen a bump in the road. I'd bet he's got the ability to check this and
> that out to see what is what. 
> The seller *does* matter when you buy this stuff. That's true no matter
> what you are getting. No matter how good they are, problems do come up.
> The question is always how well they address them. We tend to dump
> pretty hard on these guys. I'm not sure that's always warrantied. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 17:56:45 2018
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 23:56:45 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOu+XBm9cgHV-fg1v_NA4xn=Kww2rEtLby1h-4cXLXoL6VQ@mail.gmail.com>

I see that Buerklin has also complete GPSDOs from Furuno, the GF-8701
seems the entry level model for 291 eur.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 7:55 PM, Bob Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com> wrote:
> I bought some of the Furuno GT-8736 boards for $35 a pop, qty 1 (or 2 as
> was the case).  And was quoted at $26.91 a pop if I buy 100.   If there's
> interest, I'm happy to coordinate a group buy at cost.  Just paid off that
> credit card yesterday so why not?   If there are more desirable boards from
> Furuno, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
>
> -Bob
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:59 AM, ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Talking about Furuno has any one looked at the GT-87. I have known about
>> it for years but found no way to buy some now DigiKey has them for $ 100,
>> Buerklin in Germany for half that price. Saw tooth is +- 1.7 nsec we are
>> not going to bother with correction. We are in the process to lay out a
>> board any recommendations are appreciated
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>> In a message dated 2/15/2018 12:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> holrum at hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>  I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm header on
>> the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of the
>> Adafruit Ultimate GPS. There a couple of minor pin differences... the
>> Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is used
>> as the Furuno antenna power connection. The Furuno can be soldered to the
>> board or a female connector could be installed.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to order a few boards. If interested, contact me off
>> list._______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>   1 Attached Images
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From n2lym at optonline.net  Thu Feb 15 18:38:35 2018
From: n2lym at optonline.net (n2lym)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 18:38:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46fa236.7d77.1619bd57f20.Webtop.45@optonline.net>

Bob,


I would be interested in 4 Furuno GT-8736 boards if you order.




Mike




On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 01:55 PM, Bob Darlington wrote:

> I bought some of the Furuno GT-8736 boards for $35 a pop, qty 1 (or 2 
> as
> was the case).  And was quoted at $26.91 a pop if I buy 100.   If 
> there's
> interest, I'm happy to coordinate a group buy at cost.  Just paid off 
> that
> credit card yesterday so why not?   If there are more desirable boards 
> from
> Furuno, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
>
> -Bob
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:59 AM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
>
>> Talking about Furuno has any one looked at the GT-87. I have known 
>> about
>> it for years but found no way to buy some now DigiKey has them for $ 
>> 100,
>> Buerklin in Germany for half that price. Saw tooth is +- 1.7 nsec we 
>> are
>> not going to bother with correction. We are in the process to lay out 
>> a
>> board any recommendations are appreciated
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>> In a message dated 2/15/2018 12:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> holrum at hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>  I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm 
>> header on
>> the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of 
>> the
>> Adafruit Ultimate GPS. There a couple of minor pin differences... the
>> Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is 
>> used
>> as the Furuno antenna power connection. The Furuno can be soldered to 
>> the
>> board or a female connector could be installed.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to order a few boards. If interested, contact me 
>> off
>> list._______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>   1 Attached Images
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From gmaxwell at gmail.com  Thu Feb 15 18:46:25 2018
From: gmaxwell at gmail.com (Gregory Maxwell)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 23:46:25 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAS2fgRBDdGdDsMy1g7+r5eoVCt6fCjC5zkaCqubyZTOe=Qcow@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Bob,

If you do a group buy of GT-8736 I'm game for 10.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 6:55 PM, Bob Darlington <rdarlington at gmail.com> wrote:
> I bought some of the Furuno GT-8736 boards for $35 a pop, qty 1 (or 2 as
> was the case).  And was quoted at $26.91 a pop if I buy 100.   If there's
> interest, I'm happy to coordinate a group buy at cost.  Just paid off that
> credit card yesterday so why not?   If there are more desirable boards from
> Furuno, let me know and I'll see what I can do.
>
> -Bob
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 3:59 AM, ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Talking about Furuno has any one looked at the GT-87. I have known about
>> it for years but found no way to buy some now DigiKey has them for $ 100,
>> Buerklin in Germany for half that price. Saw tooth is +- 1.7 nsec we are
>> not going to bother with correction. We are in the process to lay out a
>> board any recommendations are appreciated
>> Bert Kehren
>>
>> In a message dated 2/15/2018 12:39:48 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> holrum at hotmail.com writes:
>>
>>
>>  I just did a small adapter board that converts the 2x5 pin 2mm header on
>> the Furuno GT-8031 to a 1x9 pin 0.1" connector with the pinouts of the
>> Adafruit Ultimate GPS. There a couple of minor pin differences... the
>> Adafruit FIX pin is not used and the Adafriuit 3.3VREG output pin is used
>> as the Furuno antenna power connection. The Furuno can be soldered to the
>> board or a female connector could be installed.
>>
>> I'm getting ready to order a few boards. If interested, contact me off
>> list._______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>   1 Attached Images
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 08:21:21 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 07:21:21 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tKBb0zkzPLqxKAnFCEp0RPhYmJs3C0CRfrFRzeCEorGDA@mail.gmail.com>

Bob wrote:  Hi

Just so people don’t get to down on eBay antennas:

I have gotten some deals on eBay I just couldn't have gotten elsewhere.
That is a nice looking antenna. A bit pricey for my budget. I thought just
north of $100 for a used Leica choke ring job was about it. The Trimble
antenna I got recently had issues, so I got it cheap and fixed the
mechanical problems. I think I have one of those HP timing antennas I have
heard mentioned here. I need to dig it up. I think I also have a PC Tel
model around somewhere. I still haven't gotten the top off that Chinese
made one that bit the dust at 12 volts. I need to get it apart somehow. I
think it can probably be repaired. I can at least let the seller know what
went bad.

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
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<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

From david.partridge at perdrix.co.uk  Fri Feb 16 12:36:59 2018
From: david.partridge at perdrix.co.uk (David C. Partridge)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:36:59 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CAAS2fgRBDdGdDsMy1g7+r5eoVCt6fCjC5zkaCqubyZTOe=Qcow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB10246D3913E2B4692B7A6CB6CEF40@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <161991e88b6-c8a-726b@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net>
 <CAF_SE-B5pxF29HgrGw4VzoF87ztB4PhDy06qZSW6uiC=hgOHZg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAS2fgRBDdGdDsMy1g7+r5eoVCt6fCjC5zkaCqubyZTOe=Qcow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <000001d3a74c$c16cea50$4446bef0$@perdrix.co.uk>

Never having opened my TBolt, are the GT-8736 boards of use to replace the aging and partly deaf receiver in that? Or for a KS-24019?

Thanks
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Gregory Maxwell
Sent: 15 February 2018 23:46
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board

Hi Bob,

If you do a group buy of GT-8736 I'm game for 10.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 12:50:09 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:50:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
Message-ID: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

No, the Tbolt does not have a separate receiver board... plus its' GPS is rather special... the RF chain is locked to the OCXO so it does not produce any sawtooth error.

The Lucent KS firmware expects the GPS to support the older 6/8 channel messages.   The newer 12 channel  messages are different.

BTW, I just did a Motorola M12 to Adafruit pinout board.  The M12 form factor and pinouts are also used by a lot of other timing receivers.  Why Adafruit?  Because it is breadboard friendly,  has enough pins for all the signals that one expects,  and my GPS to RS-232 adapter board has an Adafruit connector on it.

----------------

> Never having opened my TBolt, are the GT-8736 boards of use to replace the aging and partly deaf receiver in that? Or for a KS-24019?

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 16 12:55:58 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:55:58 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <E7ABBBC6-2C07-417F-B87C-BC2CA07FEDB8@n1k.org>

Hi

Even more exciting, some of the “M12 like” devices are close, but not exact copies of the
M12 command set. Your GPSDO may be fine with the differences on this device, but not
so happy with the differences on some other device. 

Bob

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 12:50 PM, Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> No, the Tbolt does not have a separate receiver board... plus its' GPS is rather special... the RF chain is locked to the OCXO so it does not produce any sawtooth error.
> 
> The Lucent KS firmware expects the GPS to support the older 6/8 channel messages.   The newer 12 channel  messages are different.
> 
> BTW, I just did a Motorola M12 to Adafruit pinout board.  The M12 form factor and pinouts are also used by a lot of other timing receivers.  Why Adafruit?  Because it is breadboard friendly,  has enough pins for all the signals that one expects,  and my GPS to RS-232 adapter board has an Adafruit connector on it.
> 
> ----------------
> 
>> Never having opened my TBolt, are the GT-8736 boards of use to replace the aging and partly deaf receiver in that? Or for a KS-24019?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 13:17:20 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:17:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
Message-ID: <CY1PR11MB1013746C2240CDE4DB36EBD4CECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I have several Motorola compatible GPS receivers... and not one of them does a perfect emulation of the Motorola devices.  Some are quite close and not likely to cause problems... others are superiorly craptastic.

-------------------------------

>Even more exciting, some of the “M12 like” devices are close, but not exact copies of the
M12 command set.

From stewart.cobb at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 13:31:33 2018
From: stewart.cobb at gmail.com (Stewart Cobb)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:31:33 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-YqMrvSkEyCJv==CKN=w+S4GCS8ZPOCK0FoFmd19mvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rfrQ+9hFXhy2BCXZ3dgUUuNAGr86rjAO2TBUpDCkJSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qgtsFKfnTZ3pd8Rh6wZLK6H085V7N2XX59=N-mTLJcxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oBBSBFQ39nKoPtffkucmaMGfKmtQd3pBoXfsL5+o2wmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oBrzVc4w52-qXYCMP5XE34eR=g-3gy7OvwCm_vO=90xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ofnP6ijfhDDmfXJG3OAwbcX8M5Ka7HjYfbOptHHH8vzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pWdRQ4J-F3vEwjxY+P95BBXdvDjpspBpOjT2EEtD4A8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o0NB-FrGH9kECLFAGZSWG848hXqNe154QYXMAJCzidQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pZYWnA6O_ftJzc2ePG7gtuOXPoL7qf4hnhTLL6i+B+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5q5LrpSM-ao6y62GSM0bzhhejmytDL9zN_mfbFy8UOdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ocC=vMm+f8XRqjyBTR1J40QKywv+J-8N1XpYG-9LOd_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5phxQ1dCJiEBpSTxN9BLq-NVWF8BpPfvHPO1TOD_hXKQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJJEH8tborGnFRRBfwLyOOaG-S_2J_0H8Cn8=rs=jCqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rqOk1WZoRox_0d9ZobTVfh0C8UHYkd5y1kOqnyqxmXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>

FYI, Antcom and AeroAntenna are two manufacturers of high-quality
American-made GPS / GNSS antennas. Antcom's datasheets are confusing to
read, and AeroAntenna hides theirs behind a customer-login barrier, so most
of eBay doesn't know exactly what they are. This means that good antennas
are often available cheap.

For example, any AeroAntenna whose part number starts with "AT2775" is a
dual-frequency L1/L2 GPS antenna. AT2775-42 is a near-survey-grade antenna,
and one of them is available right now (item 263500294711) at a starting
bid of $20, after expiring yesterday with no bids at $25.

Several other AT2775 antennas are on eBay for under $200. Any of these
would be excellent for time-nut purposes.

IMHO, Glonass coverage is not useful for precision timing. If you don't
have a good enough antenna installation to get continuous GPS coverage,
you're not really doing precision timing. If you are getting continuous GPS
coverage, Glonass doesn't add anything.

Disclaimer: I have no relationship to either company mentioned, other than
previously being a satisfied customer of both companies. I have no
connection to any sales currently listed on eBay.

Cheers!
--Stu

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 16 13:47:24 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:47:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-YqMrvSkEyCJv==CKN=w+S4GCS8ZPOCK0FoFmd19mvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rfrQ+9hFXhy2BCXZ3dgUUuNAGr86rjAO2TBUpDCkJSSA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qgtsFKfnTZ3pd8Rh6wZLK6H085V7N2XX59=N-mTLJcxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oBBSBFQ39nKoPtffkucmaMGfKmtQd3pBoXfsL5+o2wmA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oBrzVc4w52-qXYCMP5XE34eR=g-3gy7OvwCm_vO=90xA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ofnP6ijfhDDmfXJG3OAwbcX8M5Ka7HjYfbOptHHH8vzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pWdRQ4J-F3vEwjxY+P95BBXdvDjpspBpOjT2EEtD4A8A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o0NB-FrGH9kECLFAGZSWG848hXqNe154QYXMAJCzidQA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pZYWnA6O_ftJzc2ePG7gtuOXPoL7qf4hnhTLL6i+B+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5q5LrpSM-ao6y62GSM0bzhhejmytDL9zN_mfbFy8UOdwg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ocC=vMm+f8XRqjyBTR1J40QKywv+J-8N1XpYG-9LOd_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5phxQ1dCJiEBpSTxN9BLq-NVWF8BpPfvHPO1TOD_hXKQQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJJEH8tborGnFRRBfwLyOOaG-S_2J_0H8Cn8=rs=jCqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rqOk1WZoRox_0d9ZobTVfh0C8UHYkd5y1kOqnyqxmXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>

Hi

Well, the interesting point about Glonass timing is that it is independent of the 
GPS empire. Galileo is another independent time source. Running a GPSDO
linked to each one would let you inter-compare the time from each of them. 
Indeed I would *guess* that Galileo would do pretty well. Reports to date on 
Glonass have not been encouraging. It still might be interesting to do. Once
Furuno releases the Galileo firmware, one of the Opus 7 based devices should
be able to run each of them. uBlox or some of the others would also do the 
same thing. 

Bob

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> FYI, Antcom and AeroAntenna are two manufacturers of high-quality
> American-made GPS / GNSS antennas. Antcom's datasheets are confusing to
> read, and AeroAntenna hides theirs behind a customer-login barrier, so most
> of eBay doesn't know exactly what they are. This means that good antennas
> are often available cheap.
> 
> For example, any AeroAntenna whose part number starts with "AT2775" is a
> dual-frequency L1/L2 GPS antenna. AT2775-42 is a near-survey-grade antenna,
> and one of them is available right now (item 263500294711) at a starting
> bid of $20, after expiring yesterday with no bids at $25.
> 
> Several other AT2775 antennas are on eBay for under $200. Any of these
> would be excellent for time-nut purposes.
> 
> IMHO, Glonass coverage is not useful for precision timing. If you don't
> have a good enough antenna installation to get continuous GPS coverage,
> you're not really doing precision timing. If you are getting continuous GPS
> coverage, Glonass doesn't add anything.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no relationship to either company mentioned, other than
> previously being a satisfied customer of both companies. I have no
> connection to any sales currently listed on eBay.
> 
> Cheers!
> --Stu
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wes at triconet.org  Fri Feb 16 13:51:20 2018
From: wes at triconet.org (Wes)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:51:20 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rqOk1WZoRox_0d9ZobTVfh0C8UHYkd5y1kOqnyqxmXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b84ccbde-a31b-23eb-3b3d-8d11395428bf@triconet.org>

On 2/16/2018 11:31 AM, Stewart Cobb wrote:
> ...
>
> For example, any AeroAntenna whose part number starts with "AT2775" is a
> dual-frequency L1/L2 GPS antenna. AT2775-42 is a near-survey-grade antenna,
> and one of them is available right now (item 263500294711) at a starting
> bid of $20, after expiring yesterday with no bids at $25.
...

Look out for the shipping charge.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 16 13:58:24 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:58:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <b84ccbde-a31b-23eb-3b3d-8d11395428bf@triconet.org>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rqOk1WZoRox_0d9ZobTVfh0C8UHYkd5y1kOqnyqxmXqQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <b84ccbde-a31b-23eb-3b3d-8d11395428bf@triconet.org>
Message-ID: <4A5756C8-D343-4D99-B856-617C8A3D31F7@n1k.org>

Hi

A full blown choke ring antenna is a pretty big heavy gizmo. That said, 
yes indeed, some shipping charges are insane. 

Bob

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 1:51 PM, Wes <wes at triconet.org> wrote:
> 
> On 2/16/2018 11:31 AM, Stewart Cobb wrote:
>> ...
>> 
>> For example, any AeroAntenna whose part number starts with "AT2775" is a
>> dual-frequency L1/L2 GPS antenna. AT2775-42 is a near-survey-grade antenna,
>> and one of them is available right now (item 263500294711) at a starting
>> bid of $20, after expiring yesterday with no bids at $25.
> ...
> 
> Look out for the shipping charge.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 13:28:33 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 12:28:33 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tLfwHO_FAOb3fArkXub8SSR3DqQAqbzmkLAHFdip=89zw@mail.gmail.com>

Maek Sims wrote:  I have several Motorola compatible GPS receivers... and
not one of them does a perfect emulation of the Motorola devices.  Some are
quite close and not likely to cause problems... others are superiorly
craptastic.

Are there any readily available boards that will substitute for the
Motorola board in a Z3801?

From gem at rellim.com  Fri Feb 16 14:49:53 2018
From: gem at rellim.com (Gary E. Miller)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:49:53 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180216114953.17641451@spidey.rellim.com>

Yo Bob!

On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:47:24 -0500
Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Reports to date on Glonass have not been encouraging.

I have been testing position accuracy lately on a self contained u-blox
8 with built-in antenna supposedly GLONASS capable.  I write a Python
script to selectively enable GLONASS and GALILEO over GPS.

All figures below are rough averages.

Typically, with one particular GPS, in one particular spot, it gives a
CEP(50) of 10 feet.

Enable GLONASS and that worsens to 24 feet.  After about a minute the
u-blox rejects all the GLONASS, that have good SNR, and the CEP(50)
drops back to normal.

Enable GALILEO and CEP(50) improves to 6 feet.  And stays that way.

So be sure to enable GALILEO in your GPS and disable GLONASS.

Also note: the passband of GALILEO is technically the same as GPS, but
has more energy at the edges.  Some GPS antennas cut it a little close
and hurt GALILEO performance.

RGDS
GARY
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
	gem at rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588

	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
    "If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 16 18:50:27 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 18:50:27 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <20180216114953.17641451@spidey.rellim.com>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
 <20180216114953.17641451@spidey.rellim.com>
Message-ID: <1BFCBD4E-57AE-4582-B8EB-6DEC9F1F375F@n1k.org>

Hi

Part of the issue with Glonass is the accuracy of the datum. It *can* be used
for navigation and timing. It’s best to use it stand alone. Survey a location 
that is specific to it’s datum and then lock the module into timing mode. Don’t 
try to run with a GPS survey as your location.

All that said, still not encouraging. 

Bob

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 2:49 PM, Gary E. Miller <gem at rellim.com> wrote:
> 
> Yo Bob!
> 
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2018 13:47:24 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> Reports to date on Glonass have not been encouraging.
> 
> I have been testing position accuracy lately on a self contained u-blox
> 8 with built-in antenna supposedly GLONASS capable.  I write a Python
> script to selectively enable GLONASS and GALILEO over GPS.
> 
> All figures below are rough averages.
> 
> Typically, with one particular GPS, in one particular spot, it gives a
> CEP(50) of 10 feet.
> 
> Enable GLONASS and that worsens to 24 feet.  After about a minute the
> u-blox rejects all the GLONASS, that have good SNR, and the CEP(50)
> drops back to normal.
> 
> Enable GALILEO and CEP(50) improves to 6 feet.  And stays that way.
> 
> So be sure to enable GALILEO in your GPS and disable GLONASS.
> 
> Also note: the passband of GALILEO is technically the same as GPS, but
> has more energy at the edges.  Some GPS antennas cut it a little close
> and hurt GALILEO performance.
> 
> RGDS
> GARY
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Gary E. Miller Rellim 109 NW Wilmington Ave., Suite E, Bend, OR 97703
> 	gem at rellim.com  Tel:+1 541 382 8588
> 
> 	    Veritas liberabit vos. -- Quid est veritas?
>    "If you can’t measure it, you can’t improve it." - Lord Kelvin
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 19:36:19 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:36:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] SRS PRS10 breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10246A9D9B165925AC555AF2CECA0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Recently I was alerted to a 24 hour closeout special for the weirdo hybrid DSUB connector used by the SRS PRS-10  and FRS rubidium oscillators.  I scored 45 of them for dirt, dirt cheap.   I can get the special coax inserts from Mouser (around $12 each... ugh).   

Soooo... I'm going to do an interface board to connect the PRS-10 / FRS devices to my X72 BNC connector board  (new version also has SMA support).  Contact me off list if interested.  SRS wants $150 for their SRS-10 breakout board or $40 for the connector alone... I'm shooting for $40-$50, assembled,  for the 2 board set.  

From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 20:26:24 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 01:26:24 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024DF6EAF868ED1A245B5A8CECA0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Besides the Furuno GT-8036 breakout board,  I just did a layout for a board that converts the pinouts of Motorola M12+ compatible receivers to a 0.1" 9-pin header that (mostly) matches the Adafruit Ultimate GPS.   The Adafruit ENABLE pin is repurposed as a DGPS RTCM corrections input and the Adafurit +3.3VREG output pin is used to provide  external antenna (5V) power... the board defaults to use the 3.3V VCC power input for the antenna power.  Contact me off list if interested.
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From jimlux at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 16 20:47:24 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:47:24 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <5e972b69-8d8a-50b9-faca-4a075415b6d4@earthlink.net>

On 2/16/18 10:47 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Well, the interesting point about Glonass timing is that it is independent of the
> GPS empire. Galileo is another independent time source. Running a GPSDO
> linked to each one would let you inter-compare the time from each of them.
> Indeed I would *guess* that Galileo would do pretty well. Reports to date on
> Glonass have not been encouraging. It still might be interesting to do. Once
> Furuno releases the Galileo firmware, one of the Opus 7 based devices should
> be able to run each of them. uBlox or some of the others would also do the
> same thing.
> 

However, if you're going to post process data using something like 
Gipsy-X, they have "better estimates" of the time base for all the 
systems, so you can get a combination. I suppose when you process you 
tell it which one is your favorite base, and it adjusts to that.


From w9gb at icloud.com  Fri Feb 16 21:03:08 2018
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 20:03:08 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Hemisphere Antenna PCB
Message-ID: <46D86333-D5D3-4920-9757-D1FEEE75DC7C@icloud.com>

These Hemisphere GNSS 500-1210-004# antenna / pre-amp boards (bulk, bare) with
no outdoor fiberglass enclosure appear to be same size used in A21 model.
Good for experimenter.
https://hemispheregnss.com/Products/Products/Peripherals/a21e284a2-antenna-135
Hemisphere GNSS is HQ in Scottsdale, AZ

Seller has eight (8) on the auction.
eBay auction: 142354760357

greg, w9gb
Sent from iPad Air

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 16 21:30:57 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 21:30:57 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Hemisphere Antenna PCB
In-Reply-To: <46D86333-D5D3-4920-9757-D1FEEE75DC7C@icloud.com>
References: <46D86333-D5D3-4920-9757-D1FEEE75DC7C@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <8238A7C1-92E8-487D-B584-FD9D761967C2@n1k.org>

Hi

I think I’d wait for the next batch of “new old stock” telecom L1 only GPS 
antennas to show up. I’d bet they will be roughly the same price. At least 
with them you also get the enclosure. 

They do show up in various conditions at various prices:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-VIC100-GPS-L1-Active-Antenna-CCAH32ST03-with-Mounting-Bracket/263031184915?hash=item3d3de15e13:g:KO8AAOSw-89ZPHeq <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-VIC100-GPS-L1-Active-Antenna-CCAH32ST03-with-Mounting-Bracket/263031184915?hash=item3d3de15e13:g:KO8AAOSw-89ZPHeq>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-Panasonic-VIC100-GPS-L1-Active-Antenna-CCAH32ST04-W-Pole-Mount-Bracket/323048812645?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D48419%26meid%3D97afb35c12c949eea12f3722cb123e00%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D263031184915%26itm%3D323048812645&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851 <https://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-2-Panasonic-VIC100-GPS-L1-Active-Antenna-CCAH32ST04-W-Pole-Mount-Bracket/323048812645?_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIM.MBE&ao=2&asc=48419&meid=97afb35c12c949eea12f3722cb123e00&pid=100005&rk=3&rkt=6&sd=263031184915&itm=323048812645&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCTEL-GPS-L1-26dB-TIMING-ANTENNA-KIT-GPS-TMG-26N-W-Mount-Kit/263472818898?epid=2256151071&hash=item3d58342ad2:g:KU0AAOSw8gVX3BPx <https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCTEL-GPS-L1-26dB-TIMING-ANTENNA-KIT-GPS-TMG-26N-W-Mount-Kit/263472818898?epid=2256151071&hash=item3d58342ad2:g:KU0AAOSw8gVX3BPx>

https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCTEL-GPS-26dB-Outdoor-Antenna-GPS-TMG-26N/282719724915?epid=2256151071&hash=item41d368a573:g:J~0AAOSwI8lZ~MMh <https://www.ebay.com/itm/PCTEL-GPS-26dB-Outdoor-Antenna-GPS-TMG-26N/282719724915?epid=2256151071&hash=item41d368a573:g:J~0AAOSwI8lZ~MMh>


Bob

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Gregory Beat <w9gb at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> These Hemisphere GNSS 500-1210-004# antenna / pre-amp boards (bulk, bare) with
> no outdoor fiberglass enclosure appear to be same size used in A21 model.
> Good for experimenter.
> https://hemispheregnss.com/Products/Products/Peripherals/a21e284a2-antenna-135
> Hemisphere GNSS is HQ in Scottsdale, AZ
> 
> Seller has eight (8) on the auction.
> eBay auction: 142354760357
> 
> greg, w9gb
> Sent from iPad Air
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 16 21:42:30 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 02:42:30 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Motorola M12+ breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10243011C737C31DE59B619CCECA0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

BTW,  forgot to mention, I also have a board that has a MAX232 RS-232 converter, DE9 connector, voltage regulator (can use 3.3 or 5V), and connectors/mounting holes for the CN06, Adafuit, and Trimble Resolution-T receivers (also works with the SV6, ACE, etc receivers with the 2mm 2x4 connector).   It has a programmable polarity 1PPS driver for the DE9 connector.  There is also a small proto area and a footprint for an ATTINY processor.  There is a jumper that lets you power the circuit/GPS from either the regulator or the DC input jack and a jumper for connecting the DC jack to the DE9 connector (or you can wire the regulator to the DE9).

I wan't planning on building more, but if there is interest...  
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From cdelect at juno.com  Fri Feb 16 23:53:01 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 20:53:01 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 107BR on eBay
Message-ID: <AABPJRPK3AQRMJXA@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>

Found a cosmetically nice  HP 107BR on eBay right now.

Hewlett Packard HP 107BR Quartz Oscillator Vintage

Cheers,

Corby

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Feb 17 08:33:00 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:33:00 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
References: <CAPXiX5pAX9uDyB7sa759ua3RMnwswcc2qXP9cWxK-kVoLJsOLQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ozkUQP+bizppucnVbLvbs_re9vOfp-+wdSuGYKTMU1Dg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rTqvaEiv4oTXkKMXgpcvM4sQHcfdtrQY+Hpa8XSOBhxA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oMGF4rVEzRiWhL=-w+c_fFOrAc49sfVaaGoNbS1Z1ypw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o2Th9Hs+AruBb6v5BwC+VGSYUfUom100Co6ZJCr8DkuQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcEp78mik3cmX5uhO1z1oPkkKFMW_W8QVgMTssbTrUEA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5ptefNTO1toARGjgJVUrq-6Gjd3ux9Gnqjxu4F3p4p2BQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pcZmkE6sazeXub5cv9CX5GuXjfksHPMJWfuQ54gAeLUg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qJ4ZU-jy3xtbYQfAsdy8WCxEczvkLX-Q82B5oCnFE5WQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qz8E7N3_N+n7TibTKDmC1R4MBmwJd=7+9kECibgMWqYQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rQA5uWyNyw8qmZrdstkn_JBPtb_=v3_hfMNVLjKZqaTA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p-5iG-+TZLWHq+6vd+FHKpD_RnBVnLOCgu63uSQn+7Cw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5oRprb7bOu0GUaxHgCDLSZa0YtpNdx3C3Kxwxr+Wr=PJw@mail.gmail.com>
 <075ADA85-06A2-404A-A660-FB7AF9EBE839@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <03c0b534-8e98-5b9d-d2af-69971b6eaceb@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

A complicating factor with GLONASS is the frequency separation of the
satellites which causes several aspects of calibration issues.

I know they have changed operational aspects which have reduced
uncertainty significantly. This is also something that have been worked
at with the GPS system continuously.

It's a bowl of mixed issues.

However, the more systems and the more bands we use, the better we get
at finding discrepancies and mitigate them. The "all" system and
frequencies is however still very expensive.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/16/2018 07:47 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> Well, the interesting point about Glonass timing is that it is independent of the 
> GPS empire. Galileo is another independent time source. Running a GPSDO
> linked to each one would let you inter-compare the time from each of them. 
> Indeed I would *guess* that Galileo would do pretty well. Reports to date on 
> Glonass have not been encouraging. It still might be interesting to do. Once
> Furuno releases the Galileo firmware, one of the Opus 7 based devices should
> be able to run each of them. uBlox or some of the others would also do the 
> same thing. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 16, 2018, at 1:31 PM, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> FYI, Antcom and AeroAntenna are two manufacturers of high-quality
>> American-made GPS / GNSS antennas. Antcom's datasheets are confusing to
>> read, and AeroAntenna hides theirs behind a customer-login barrier, so most
>> of eBay doesn't know exactly what they are. This means that good antennas
>> are often available cheap.
>>
>> For example, any AeroAntenna whose part number starts with "AT2775" is a
>> dual-frequency L1/L2 GPS antenna. AT2775-42 is a near-survey-grade antenna,
>> and one of them is available right now (item 263500294711) at a starting
>> bid of $20, after expiring yesterday with no bids at $25.
>>
>> Several other AT2775 antennas are on eBay for under $200. Any of these
>> would be excellent for time-nut purposes.
>>
>> IMHO, Glonass coverage is not useful for precision timing. If you don't
>> have a good enough antenna installation to get continuous GPS coverage,
>> you're not really doing precision timing. If you are getting continuous GPS
>> coverage, Glonass doesn't add anything.
>>
>> Disclaimer: I have no relationship to either company mentioned, other than
>> previously being a satisfied customer of both companies. I have no
>> connection to any sales currently listed on eBay.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> --Stu
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From rdarlington at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 16:01:19 2018
From: rdarlington at gmail.com (Bob Darlington)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:01:19 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8736 group buy status
Message-ID: <CAF_SE-B0nfWiMSeqwg8+qoraiLqeqbvts08i94nYqYDwimy1sg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

As mentioned a few times over this year I've been kicking around the idea
of doing a group buy for the Furuno GT-8736 GPS receiver boards:

http://www.furuno.com/en/products/gnss-module/GT-8736

I have a quote from a vendor here in the States from last year that puts
them at roughly $27 a pop at QTY 100 units.  But... the guy retired and the
latest quote I got back (yesterday) was for the original QTY 1 price of
$35.  I sent them the lower quote and am awaiting a response.

I'll also see about buying a couple tubes of the PCB connector.  I believe
Mouser part number 855-M50-3120545 is correct ($1.45).  Looking at the
measurements, a 10mm stand off should allow the board to mate properly, and
I can supply these as well.

These are bare boards and need an MMCX pigtail cable to go off to an
antenna as well as a cable for data IO.   Antenna power comes in through
one of the pins, independently of the main power to the receiver so you can
run a 5V antenna from this 3.3 (2.85 to 3.6) volt board if you wanted to.

One of the units I had at home was just sent out today to a list member for
some testing.

Hang tight.  I'll start taking orders once everything looks good and I get
the price down to where it was.  I want to stress that I'm doing this at
cost so I will not gouge anybody.   And sorry to clutter up the list with
non-techie stuff.  I will ask that any inquiries come directly to me unless
they're of a technical nature.

-Bob
N3XKB

From holrum at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 17 16:28:08 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 21:28:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8736 group buy status
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10241971D7CF7051E8EF65F2CECA0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

You can get the connector for a lot less on Ebay.  I just bought 50 of them for my M12 adapter board (which would work with the Furuno).   Unless you do a PCB, wiring to the connector will be a rather painful, unreliable experience.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-Pitch-1-27mm-2x5-Pin-10-Pin-Female-Double-Row-Straight-Pin-Header-Strip/173004816072?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

There are other sellers...

Also, Adafuit sells a pre-made ribbon cable with the connector on each end for $3.  You can cut the cable in half and separate/strip the conductors.  I was planning on shipping my M12 breakout board with male and female connectors (unmounted) so you can chose a rigid (female) or flexible cable (male) connection to the board.

https://www.adafruit.com/product/1675


From jsternmd at att.net  Fri Feb 16 15:01:16 2018
From: jsternmd at att.net (Jerry)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 15:01:16 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LH and Leo Bodnar GPS
Message-ID: <00dd01d3a760$e7ed6470$b7c82d50$@att.net>

Any chance that Lady Heather can be modified to connect to a USB
(non-serial) device such as the Leo Bodnar GPS?

 

Jerry NY2KW


From qb4 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 17 15:07:38 2018
From: qb4 at comcast.net (Trevor N.)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:07:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts]  eBay GPS antenna test.
Message-ID: <up2h8dtpnsml05imkc305bicrnfvu1ootr@4ax.com>

It's still extremely rare to see a low-priced used triple-frequency
antenna on ebay. For less than US$300 I've only spotted extremely
beat-up Zephyr Geodetic Model 2s and a few Leica AX1203+ GNSS (only
the "+GNSS" model is triple-frequency) (there is one up right now).

  I've seen at least one Zephyr 2 listing that had a picture of a
Zephyr 1 attached (look for the bigger bump in the top center on the
model 2).

I have yet to see a triple-frequency receiver for under $500....


John Green wpxs472 at gmail.com wrote:
>Just so people don’t get to down on eBay antennas:
>
>I have gotten some deals on eBay I just couldn't have gotten elsewhere.
>That is a nice looking antenna. A bit pricey for my budget. I thought just
>north of $100 for a used Leica choke ring job was about it. The Trimble
>antenna I got recently had issues, so I got it cheap and fixed the
>mechanical problems. I think I have one of those HP timing antennas I have
>heard mentioned here. I need to dig it up. I think I also have a PC Tel
>model around somewhere. I still haven't gotten the top off that Chinese
>made one that bit the dust at 12 volts. I need to get it apart somehow. I
>think it can probably be repaired. I can at least let the seller know what
>went bad.

From qb4 at comcast.net  Sat Feb 17 15:31:43 2018
From: qb4 at comcast.net (Trevor N.)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 15:31:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts]  eBay GPS antennas
Message-ID: <il3h8d9viid0r2orkas1j6gb9dabpmdonh@4ax.com>

Javad charges an extra us$1500 for "GLONASS .2mm Dynamic Calibration"
of its triple-frequency timing receiver board:
http://www.javad.com:80/jgnss/products/options/gclb.html

https://www.javad.com/dynamic/Shop/Product/3268
(the TRE-3 appears to be the only triple-frequency part with the
"Precise Timing" option available (costs about $15k with all systems
enabled)



Magnus Danielson wrote:
>Hi,
>
>A complicating factor with GLONASS is the frequency separation of the
>satellites which causes several aspects of calibration issues.
>
>I know they have changed operational aspects which have reduced
>uncertainty significantly. This is also something that have been worked
>at with the GPS system continuously.
>
>It's a bowl of mixed issues.
>
>However, the more systems and the more bands we use, the better we get
>at finding discrepancies and mitigate them. The "all" system and
>frequencies is however still very expensive.
>
>Cheers,
>Magnus

From wes at triconet.org  Sat Feb 17 16:53:06 2018
From: wes at triconet.org (Wes)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 14:53:06 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] LH and Leo Bodnar GPS
In-Reply-To: <00dd01d3a760$e7ed6470$b7c82d50$@att.net>
References: <00dd01d3a760$e7ed6470$b7c82d50$@att.net>
Message-ID: <771157be-7794-ab5a-f1dc-74ddd132f847@triconet.org>

I'll second this request.

Wes  N7WS

On 2/16/2018 1:01 PM, Jerry wrote:
> Any chance that Lady Heather can be modified to connect to a USB
> (non-serial) device such as the Leo Bodnar GPS?
>
>   
>
> Jerry NY2KW
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb 17 17:19:38 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 17:19:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antenna test.
In-Reply-To: <up2h8dtpnsml05imkc305bicrnfvu1ootr@4ax.com>
References: <up2h8dtpnsml05imkc305bicrnfvu1ootr@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <99D50E24-87BA-4088-B3E9-237EC589D887@n1k.org>

Hi

I think you probably will have to move up to around $500 or so (and 
still shop pretty hard) to find a Zephyr Geodetic 2 in excellent condition. 
A Novatel 703 Pinwheel would also be on the list of things to watch for. 

If you find a proper (L1 / L2 / L5 ) GNSS receiver with a pps out in working 
shape for $500, go for it. They tend to be quite a bit above that price. Most
of what is in the $400 to $1000 range are L1 / L2 GPS only devices. Even
with them, finding one that will do timing is a bit tough. 

Bob

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, Trevor N. <qb4 at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> It's still extremely rare to see a low-priced used triple-frequency
> antenna on ebay. For less than US$300 I've only spotted extremely
> beat-up Zephyr Geodetic Model 2s and a few Leica AX1203+ GNSS (only
> the "+GNSS" model is triple-frequency) (there is one up right now).
> 
>  I've seen at least one Zephyr 2 listing that had a picture of a
> Zephyr 1 attached (look for the bigger bump in the top center on the
> model 2).
> 
> I have yet to see a triple-frequency receiver for under $500....
> 
> 
> John Green wpxs472 at gmail.com wrote:
>> Just so people don’t get to down on eBay antennas:
>> 
>> I have gotten some deals on eBay I just couldn't have gotten elsewhere.
>> That is a nice looking antenna. A bit pricey for my budget. I thought just
>> north of $100 for a used Leica choke ring job was about it. The Trimble
>> antenna I got recently had issues, so I got it cheap and fixed the
>> mechanical problems. I think I have one of those HP timing antennas I have
>> heard mentioned here. I need to dig it up. I think I also have a PC Tel
>> model around somewhere. I still haven't gotten the top off that Chinese
>> made one that bit the dust at 12 volts. I need to get it apart somehow. I
>> think it can probably be repaired. I can at least let the seller know what
>> went bad.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Sat Feb 17 17:29:00 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 23:29:00 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] eBay GPS antennas
In-Reply-To: <il3h8d9viid0r2orkas1j6gb9dabpmdonh@4ax.com>
References: <il3h8d9viid0r2orkas1j6gb9dabpmdonh@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <16cfac46-d855-9d9e-acc0-14388a4bf79d@rubidium.dyndns.org>

As I was saying, indeed.

There is a huge difference between affordable gear and cutting edge gear
in price and performance.

With GLONASS there are several extra biases to worry about.

It would be nice if prices of these things could drop. Already having
GPS, GLONASS, GALILEO, BEIDOU on my mobile phone shows we move along
already.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 02/17/2018 09:31 PM, Trevor N. wrote:
> Javad charges an extra us$1500 for "GLONASS .2mm Dynamic Calibration"
> of its triple-frequency timing receiver board:
> http://www.javad.com:80/jgnss/products/options/gclb.html
> 
> https://www.javad.com/dynamic/Shop/Product/3268
> (the TRE-3 appears to be the only triple-frequency part with the
> "Precise Timing" option available (costs about $15k with all systems
> enabled)
> 
> 
> 
> Magnus Danielson wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> A complicating factor with GLONASS is the frequency separation of the
>> satellites which causes several aspects of calibration issues.
>>
>> I know they have changed operational aspects which have reduced
>> uncertainty significantly. This is also something that have been worked
>> at with the GPS system continuously.
>>
>> It's a bowl of mixed issues.
>>
>> However, the more systems and the more bands we use, the better we get
>> at finding discrepancies and mitigate them. The "all" system and
>> frequencies is however still very expensive.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

From nsayer at kfu.com  Sat Feb 17 23:01:58 2018
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 20:01:58 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Talking Clock
Message-ID: <95A9E22E-1FDA-40D7-B648-B4DC4D050E6A@kfu.com>

It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but I’ve had a bunch of irons in the fire. I’m working on adapting my GPSDO to the ECS ECOC-2522, which the manufacturer claims has a short term ADEV in the low -12s, but I haven’t gotten it doing that well yet.

But one thing that is ready (well, electronically it is - I’m still working on the laser cut case for it) is my GPS Talking Clock.

The story is that I called the USNO time number at midnight on New Year’s Day, but the wife noted that it was the wrong time zone. That got me thinking, and I wound up designing a GPS driven simulacrum.

It’s an ATXmega32E5 with the usual Venus838 timing module and a µSD card slot. The card is loaded with audio samples that the 32E5 plays back through its DAC. I got double-buffered DMA to work to feed the DAC, so audio playback is a largely background task. I just have to fill the buffer with the next block from the file every ~30 ms or so. The ticks and beeps are generated from an on board 1 kHz source and are turned on by a PPS ISR, so they’re as accurate as possible. The whole thing is basically as accurate as an aural clock can be - the latency induced by the speed of sound has far more impact than anything else.

While the audio is turned off, the clock can also do Westminster Quarters (or any other chime you wish to load in).

The µSD card is FAT formatted and the audio sample files are easy to make with ‘sox’ (raw, 1 channel, 8 kHz, 16 bit little-endian, unsigned), so there’s no reason you can’t substitute my voice with your own, or make your own chimes.

It’s available at https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/gps-talking-clock/


From stijn at pe1rks.nl  Sun Feb 18 08:08:25 2018
From: stijn at pe1rks.nl (Stijn Nestra)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 14:08:25 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 107BR
Message-ID: <1b8ad566-1ca7-8204-d623-d5449eaa807a@pe1rks.nl>

Gents,

I have a question about a HP 107BR that I have.

It is marked at the front panel with: specif. H40 107BR



I do have the manual, but it states nothing about specif. H40





Does anybody on this list have a clue about this special specification?

Stijn

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb 18 09:04:04 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 09:04:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Talking Clock
In-Reply-To: <95A9E22E-1FDA-40D7-B648-B4DC4D050E6A@kfu.com>
References: <95A9E22E-1FDA-40D7-B648-B4DC4D050E6A@kfu.com>
Message-ID: <C7ACAFBF-3C02-4C1C-BC3B-CCA4A7D083C6@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:01 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but I’ve had a bunch of irons in the fire. I’m working on adapting my GPSDO to the ECS ECOC-2522, which the manufacturer claims has a short term ADEV in the low -12s, but I haven’t gotten it doing that well yet.

At least on this data sheet: 

https://www.ecsxtal.com/store/pdf/ECOC-2522.pdf <https://www.ecsxtal.com/store/pdf/ECOC-2522.pdf>

They don’t say much of anything at all about ADEV. OCXO’s in the little packages are rarely super stars when it comes to ADEV.

Bob



> 
> But one thing that is ready (well, electronically it is - I’m still working on the laser cut case for it) is my GPS Talking Clock.
> 
> The story is that I called the USNO time number at midnight on New Year’s Day, but the wife noted that it was the wrong time zone. That got me thinking, and I wound up designing a GPS driven simulacrum.
> 
> It’s an ATXmega32E5 with the usual Venus838 timing module and a µSD card slot. The card is loaded with audio samples that the 32E5 plays back through its DAC. I got double-buffered DMA to work to feed the DAC, so audio playback is a largely background task. I just have to fill the buffer with the next block from the file every ~30 ms or so. The ticks and beeps are generated from an on board 1 kHz source and are turned on by a PPS ISR, so they’re as accurate as possible. The whole thing is basically as accurate as an aural clock can be - the latency induced by the speed of sound has far more impact than anything else.
> 
> While the audio is turned off, the clock can also do Westminster Quarters (or any other chime you wish to load in).
> 
> The µSD card is FAT formatted and the audio sample files are easy to make with ‘sox’ (raw, 1 channel, 8 kHz, 16 bit little-endian, unsigned), so there’s no reason you can’t substitute my voice with your own, or make your own chimes.
> 
> It’s available at https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/gps-talking-clock/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From nsayer at kfu.com  Sun Feb 18 10:54:14 2018
From: nsayer at kfu.com (Nick Sayer)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 07:54:14 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] GPS Talking Clock
In-Reply-To: <C7ACAFBF-3C02-4C1C-BC3B-CCA4A7D083C6@n1k.org>
References: <95A9E22E-1FDA-40D7-B648-B4DC4D050E6A@kfu.com>
 <C7ACAFBF-3C02-4C1C-BC3B-CCA4A7D083C6@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <46149A71-3A81-4304-98C7-D4B84F20BD76@kfu.com>

No they don’t. I wrote and asked them and they sent me back some sample data. They were a pretty pleasant surprise.

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> On Feb 18, 2018, at 6:04 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:01 PM, Nick Sayer via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It’s been a while since I’ve posted here, but I’ve had a bunch of irons in the fire. I’m working on adapting my GPSDO to the ECS ECOC-2522, which the manufacturer claims has a short term ADEV in the low -12s, but I haven’t gotten it doing that well yet.
> 
> At least on this data sheet: 
> 
> https://www.ecsxtal.com/store/pdf/ECOC-2522.pdf
> 
> They don’t say much of anything at all about ADEV. OCXO’s in the little packages are rarely super stars when it comes to ADEV.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> But one thing that is ready (well, electronically it is - I’m still working on the laser cut case for it) is my GPS Talking Clock.
>> 
>> The story is that I called the USNO time number at midnight on New Year’s Day, but the wife noted that it was the wrong time zone. That got me thinking, and I wound up designing a GPS driven simulacrum.
>> 
>> It’s an ATXmega32E5 with the usual Venus838 timing module and a µSD card slot. The card is loaded with audio samples that the 32E5 plays back through its DAC. I got double-buffered DMA to work to feed the DAC, so audio playback is a largely background task. I just have to fill the buffer with the next block from the file every ~30 ms or so. The ticks and beeps are generated from an on board 1 kHz source and are turned on by a PPS ISR, so they’re as accurate as possible. The whole thing is basically as accurate as an aural clock can be - the latency induced by the speed of sound has far more impact than anything else.
>> 
>> While the audio is turned off, the clock can also do Westminster Quarters (or any other chime you wish to load in).
>> 
>> The µSD card is FAT formatted and the audio sample files are easy to make with ‘sox’ (raw, 1 channel, 8 kHz, 16 bit little-endian, unsigned), so there’s no reason you can’t substitute my voice with your own, or make your own chimes.
>> 
>> It’s available at https://www.tindie.com/products/nsayer/gps-talking-clock/
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.


From not.again at btinternet.com  Sun Feb 18 12:19:21 2018
From: not.again at btinternet.com (Angus)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 17:19:21 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <845e6b52-a133-c4f2-ca66-ebfd7dd4e0e4@aei.ca>
References: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <845e6b52-a133-c4f2-ca66-ebfd7dd4e0e4@aei.ca>
Message-ID: <j3cj8dhsp70f7go8t47stbj5nv1e8subcq@4ax.com>


Hi,

The problem is that because of the type and position of the connectors
on so many of the Trimble, Novatel, etc., antennas, it's practically
impossible to seal them with something easily removed like self
amalgamating tape. Antennas like the 58532A make life a lot simpler by
hiding the connector up a tube.

The idea seems to be that nickel plated brass TNC connectors are all
that's needed, but it's not that simple - particularly for coastal or
marine use. 
In fairness, even a lot of manufacturers of dedicated marine gear
vastly underestimate where water can get to and what damage it will do
- at least they did back in the 1990's when I was working with that
stuff. It could take a very long time (if ever) for them to be
convinced that what works in their nice little environmental test
chamber could possibly fail out in the big bad world!

>However, for the past 10 years or so I have been using double wall 
>adhesive lined heat shrink tubing. My local electronics and electrical 
>supplies carry this product and it is not that expensive. This I find 
>both quicker to install, neater, more reliable, and much easier to 
>remove than the rubber tape followed by vinyl tape method.

I was not convinced about adhesive lined heat shrink when I tried it
since it usually didn't seem to bond well enough to withstand bending,
although I've not tried the newer types. It probably wasn't the
premium quality tubing Adrian mentioned either.
The PIB based self amalgamating tapes had to be well taped up and did
not like oil, but the EPDM and PE ones we used were less sensitive
although they still needed to be taped up.

Since I wanted to be able to swap them easily, I eventually got some
Amphenol ARC TNC connectors for the GPS antennas, but still chickened
out of using the heat shrink supplied and went for self amalgamating
tape instead for sealing the crimp. I really should try the unused
heat shrink on something to see how it does.

Angus.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb 18 12:44:13 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 12:44:13 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <j3cj8dhsp70f7go8t47stbj5nv1e8subcq@4ax.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <845e6b52-a133-c4f2-ca66-ebfd7dd4e0e4@aei.ca>
 <j3cj8dhsp70f7go8t47stbj5nv1e8subcq@4ax.com>
Message-ID: <2A137F87-0AE8-4405-911F-B54EE939F71B@n1k.org>

Hi

One of the other variables in all this is the type of coax you use. The “best 
stuff” is flooded with silicon goop that is an absolute mess to deal with. 
It also will have a jacket on it that withstands UV better than the typical 
stuff. You may or may not need the UV protection, but you get it anyway. 

No, this will not help the innards of the antenna. Water (and salt and whatever ..)
moves both ways from the connector. 

Bob

> On Feb 18, 2018, at 12:19 PM, Angus via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The problem is that because of the type and position of the connectors
> on so many of the Trimble, Novatel, etc., antennas, it's practically
> impossible to seal them with something easily removed like self
> amalgamating tape. Antennas like the 58532A make life a lot simpler by
> hiding the connector up a tube.
> 
> The idea seems to be that nickel plated brass TNC connectors are all
> that's needed, but it's not that simple - particularly for coastal or
> marine use. 
> In fairness, even a lot of manufacturers of dedicated marine gear
> vastly underestimate where water can get to and what damage it will do
> - at least they did back in the 1990's when I was working with that
> stuff. It could take a very long time (if ever) for them to be
> convinced that what works in their nice little environmental test
> chamber could possibly fail out in the big bad world!
> 
>> However, for the past 10 years or so I have been using double wall 
>> adhesive lined heat shrink tubing. My local electronics and electrical 
>> supplies carry this product and it is not that expensive. This I find 
>> both quicker to install, neater, more reliable, and much easier to 
>> remove than the rubber tape followed by vinyl tape method.
> 
> I was not convinced about adhesive lined heat shrink when I tried it
> since it usually didn't seem to bond well enough to withstand bending,
> although I've not tried the newer types. It probably wasn't the
> premium quality tubing Adrian mentioned either.
> The PIB based self amalgamating tapes had to be well taped up and did
> not like oil, but the EPDM and PE ones we used were less sensitive
> although they still needed to be taped up.
> 
> Since I wanted to be able to swap them easily, I eventually got some
> Amphenol ARC TNC connectors for the GPS antennas, but still chickened
> out of using the heat shrink supplied and went for self amalgamating
> tape instead for sealing the crimp. I really should try the unused
> heat shrink on something to see how it does.
> 
> Angus.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From robertg8rpi at virginmedia.com  Sun Feb 18 16:57:53 2018
From: robertg8rpi at virginmedia.com (George Atkinson)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 21:57:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Symmetricom 58532A GPS Antenna : Launch3 Surplus
In-Reply-To: <2A137F87-0AE8-4405-911F-B54EE939F71B@n1k.org>
References: <SN1PR11MB102456F64BE3493D0D8F80DBCEF10@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <845e6b52-a133-c4f2-ca66-ebfd7dd4e0e4@aei.ca>
 <j3cj8dhsp70f7go8t47stbj5nv1e8subcq@4ax.com>
 <2A137F87-0AE8-4405-911F-B54EE939F71B@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <695850309.62596.1518991073723@mail2.virginmedia.com>

There is one highly effective, if somewhat messy, solution to sealing connectors. It's a "tape" made of open weave fabric impregnated with petrolium compounds. It'd main use is protecting pipework etc. In the UK it's often called Denso tape.
http://www.denso.net/densotape/index.htm
In the USA one brand is Petro-Tape 
http://www.premcrete.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Petro-Tape_XP.pdf   
In Canada PetroWrap
http://www.insulmastic.com/index.php/products/marine-division/20-petrowrap%C2%AE-anti-corrosion-tape.html
I'ts almost like a mastic and forms a skin after a while. Not something you would use were you would bump into it, but I've taked down antennas that were decades old and the connectors looked like new once the tape was removed.

Robert G8RPI.
> On 18 February 2018 at 17:44 Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> One of the other variables in all this is the type of coax you use. The “best 
> stuff” is flooded with silicon goop that is an absolute mess to deal with. 
> It also will have a jacket on it that withstands UV better than the typical 
> stuff. You may or may not need the UV protection, but you get it anyway. 
> 
> No, this will not help the innards of the antenna. Water (and salt and whatever ..)
> moves both ways from the connector. 
> 
> Bob
> 
> > On Feb 18, 2018, at 12:19 PM, Angus via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > The problem is that because of the type and position of the connectors
> > on so many of the Trimble, Novatel, etc., antennas, it's practically
> > impossible to seal them with something easily removed like self
> > amalgamating tape. Antennas like the 58532A make life a lot simpler by
> > hiding the connector up a tube.
> > 
> > The idea seems to be that nickel plated brass TNC connectors are all
> > that's needed, but it's not that simple - particularly for coastal or
> > marine use. 
> > In fairness, even a lot of manufacturers of dedicated marine gear
> > vastly underestimate where water can get to and what damage it will do
> > - at least they did back in the 1990's when I was working with that
> > stuff. It could take a very long time (if ever) for them to be
> > convinced that what works in their nice little environmental test
> > chamber could possibly fail out in the big bad world!
> > 
> >> However, for the past 10 years or so I have been using double wall 
> >> adhesive lined heat shrink tubing. My local electronics and electrical 
> >> supplies carry this product and it is not that expensive. This I find 
> >> both quicker to install, neater, more reliable, and much easier to 
> >> remove than the rubber tape followed by vinyl tape method.
> > 
> > I was not convinced about adhesive lined heat shrink when I tried it
> > since it usually didn't seem to bond well enough to withstand bending,
> > although I've not tried the newer types. It probably wasn't the
> > premium quality tubing Adrian mentioned either.
> > The PIB based self amalgamating tapes had to be well taped up and did
> > not like oil, but the EPDM and PE ones we used were less sensitive
> > although they still needed to be taped up.
> > 
> > Since I wanted to be able to swap them easily, I eventually got some
> > Amphenol ARC TNC connectors for the GPS antennas, but still chickened
> > out of using the heat shrink supplied and went for self amalgamating
> > tape instead for sealing the crimp. I really should try the unused
> > heat shrink on something to see how it does.
> > 
> > Angus.
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From holrum at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 00:40:06 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 05:40:06 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] SRS PRS10 breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10247349CF6E54C4A5C3F675CEC80@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I've finished a layout for the PRS10 interface board.

The board has a few features not on the SRS PRBB breakout board:

1) PPS output is buffered by an ACMOS gate.  The PRS10 PPS output is very weak.

2) Added a sine wave squarer for generating an ACMOS level square wave output.

3) Added a pin header jumper block for configuring the board for the PRS10 configuration.  The PRS10 has four dual-function pins.  The function of the pins is determined by resistors inside the PRS10.  The SRS PRBB  board uses some (undocumented) solder jumpers.

From holrum at hotmail.com  Mon Feb 19 00:41:34 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 05:41:34 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] SRS PRS10 breakout board
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB102417A83236954F33102844CEC80@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Oops, forgot to attach the pic of the board.
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From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 16:18:02 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 14:18:02 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Rubidium for HP 53131A
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyWRSC=hqCQT4NcpLgo=tmK45i36VPkFXbuxy4ASchSRDQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Time-Nuts,

A while back I acquired an HP 53131A, and a bit later added one of the
Chinese knock-off 3GHz prescalers.  Makes for a nice counter except
for the very poor standard timebase.  So, While researching the Option
010 and finding how outrageous the prices are running I found an
Option 010 DIY project.  It occurred to me that I could just
substitute a Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator for the ovenized
OCXO.

It came out really nice (and is much better than an Option 010 - at
least for anything over 10-100 seconds).  I have a header so that I
can calibrate the oscillator over the serial port (a one-time exercise
I imagine).  And I added a LOCK indicator in one of the removable
plugs right above the reference BNCs on the back panel.  Both the
oscillator and the LOCK light are powered from the always on +12V so
there is no warmup when the counter is turned on and the LOCK
indication works when the counter is powered off.  And since the fan
runs 24/7 I'm not too worried about the X72 overheating.

All the extra hardware is mounted on a simple 'L' shaped aluminum
plate that bolts where the Option 010 mounts to the chassis side rail.
I used a 16-pin flat cable that plugs directly into the 53131A main
board.  The only modification that was made to the stock counter was
to drill the hole in the plastic plug for the LOCK light.

Now the Reference Out can also be used to drive other devices as well
(with reasonable accuracy).

Relatively easy project that can be assembled in a weekend .

Pictures are attached.

Skip Withrow
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb 19 17:21:24 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:21:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rubidium for HP 53131A
In-Reply-To: <CA+oSWyWRSC=hqCQT4NcpLgo=tmK45i36VPkFXbuxy4ASchSRDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+oSWyWRSC=hqCQT4NcpLgo=tmK45i36VPkFXbuxy4ASchSRDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0D6245DD-598E-450E-8572-4CAE633C23AC@n1k.org>

Hi

Be careful about air flow. Those counters have heat issues even in the stock configuration.
The Rb is a bit of a power hog so it heats up as well. Not saying it won’t work, only that
you need to be sure the air is moving in the right places.

Bob

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 4:18 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Time-Nuts,
> 
> A while back I acquired an HP 53131A, and a bit later added one of the
> Chinese knock-off 3GHz prescalers.  Makes for a nice counter except
> for the very poor standard timebase.  So, While researching the Option
> 010 and finding how outrageous the prices are running I found an
> Option 010 DIY project.  It occurred to me that I could just
> substitute a Symmetricom X72 rubidium oscillator for the ovenized
> OCXO.
> 
> It came out really nice (and is much better than an Option 010 - at
> least for anything over 10-100 seconds).  I have a header so that I
> can calibrate the oscillator over the serial port (a one-time exercise
> I imagine).  And I added a LOCK indicator in one of the removable
> plugs right above the reference BNCs on the back panel.  Both the
> oscillator and the LOCK light are powered from the always on +12V so
> there is no warmup when the counter is turned on and the LOCK
> indication works when the counter is powered off.  And since the fan
> runs 24/7 I'm not too worried about the X72 overheating.
> 
> All the extra hardware is mounted on a simple 'L' shaped aluminum
> plate that bolts where the Option 010 mounts to the chassis side rail.
> I used a 16-pin flat cable that plugs directly into the 53131A main
> board.  The only modification that was made to the stock counter was
> to drill the hole in the plastic plug for the LOCK light.
> 
> Now the Reference Out can also be used to drive other devices as well
> (with reasonable accuracy).
> 
> Relatively easy project that can be assembled in a weekend .
> 
> Pictures are attached.
> 
> Skip Withrow
> <sRb Mod-1.jpg><sRB Mod-2.jpg>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From shalimr9 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 18:28:07 2018
From: shalimr9 at gmail.com (Didier Juges)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 23:28:07 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAMQqFuneFwj-=nXmuHgM3O5SZjti=jG3DPFO+BG0+8cuyU2Yrg@mail.gmail.com>

What do you mean by “Adafruit” pinout?

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:50 AM Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:

> No, the Tbolt does not have a separate receiver board... plus its' GPS is
> rather special... the RF chain is locked to the OCXO so it does not produce
> any sawtooth error.
>
> The Lucent KS firmware expects the GPS to support the older 6/8 channel
> messages.   The newer 12 channel  messages are different.
>
> BTW, I just did a Motorola M12 to Adafruit pinout board.  The M12 form
> factor and pinouts are also used by a lot of other timing receivers.  Why
> Adafruit?  Because it is breadboard friendly,  has enough pins for all the
> signals that one expects,  and my GPS to RS-232 adapter board has an
> Adafruit connector on it.
>
> ----------------
>
> > Never having opened my TBolt, are the GT-8736 boards of use to replace
> the aging and partly deaf receiver in that? Or for a KS-24019?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From shalimr9 at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 18:28:57 2018
From: shalimr9 at gmail.com (Didier Juges)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 23:28:57 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Furuno GT-8031 breakout board
In-Reply-To: <CAMQqFuneFwj-=nXmuHgM3O5SZjti=jG3DPFO+BG0+8cuyU2Yrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CY1PR11MB1013E8397F75858E11D9EAADCECB0@CY1PR11MB1013.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAMQqFuneFwj-=nXmuHgM3O5SZjti=jG3DPFO+BG0+8cuyU2Yrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMQqFumY7qyb3JcL94h5Azi10Lzf9G5sNduweQWY-Swe2Tzg7A@mail.gmail.com>

Got the answer in the previous email :)

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 5:28 PM Didier Juges <shalimr9 at gmail.com> wrote:

> What do you mean by “Adafruit” pinout?
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:50 AM Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> No, the Tbolt does not have a separate receiver board... plus its' GPS is
>> rather special... the RF chain is locked to the OCXO so it does not produce
>> any sawtooth error.
>>
>> The Lucent KS firmware expects the GPS to support the older 6/8 channel
>> messages.   The newer 12 channel  messages are different.
>>
>> BTW, I just did a Motorola M12 to Adafruit pinout board.  The M12 form
>> factor and pinouts are also used by a lot of other timing receivers.  Why
>> Adafruit?  Because it is breadboard friendly,  has enough pins for all the
>> signals that one expects,  and my GPS to RS-232 adapter board has an
>> Adafruit connector on it.
>>
>> ----------------
>>
>> > Never having opened my TBolt, are the GT-8736 boards of use to replace
>> the aging and partly deaf receiver in that? Or for a KS-24019?
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>

From walter2 at sphere.bc.ca  Mon Feb 19 18:57:49 2018
From: walter2 at sphere.bc.ca (walter shawlee 2)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 15:57:49 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
Message-ID: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>

I recently got a strange little 1U FEI rack mounted unit called an FE-7923F-100-1,
which appears to have rear 10MHz and dual 100Mhz outputs. it is called a 
Frequency Reference Unit.

sadly, my unit has a fault light, and no outputs. All the internal supplies look 
good, and there is an FE-83AA (10.0Mhz) and FE-1020-100 (100Mhz) OCXO inside.  
both of these work (when measured at the oscillators), and seem to have 
meaningful control including EFC, and I tracked down the adjustments in a sea of 
what seem to be prototype boards next to the oscillators. so, I have two good 
sources, adjustable, but still no outputs.
the OCXO signals disappear into a set of boards with no useful markings as to 
function, and look mainly digital.

the 100Mhz unit has only about 200mV p-p output, which seems low to me, the 
other has lots of signal. I cannot find any data on either unit on line or at 
the FEI website, so any data that is out there would be very welcome, so I can 
be sure they at least are running correctly.

I am hoping to use this rack as a source of RF reference signals in other gear, 
but clearly I will have to either gut the rest of the circuitry and add some new 
buffers, or figure out the rats nest of hand wiring to determine why it's not 
working.  any help in that area hugely appreciated, and I can send pics to 
anybody interested to know more about the internals.

the rear apron has AC power in, a 10MHz output SMA, a switch next to it that 
says INT/EXT REF. (set to INT), but no way to attach an external ref.  then 
there's a D-Sub filtered connector, that runs to the stacked digital boards, but 
its purpose is unknown as I cannot see where the connections go.  there are also 
two 100Mhz SMA outputs, but all outputs are dead, with no signal, and the front 
ONLINE green LED is dark, and the red FAULT LED is lit. the oscillators do not 
run to the rear jacks but disappear into three pcbs.

hoping for some FEI data if anybody has some to share.
all the best,
walter

-- 
Walter Shawlee 2, President
Sphere Research Corporation
3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)


From djl at montana.com  Mon Feb 19 19:08:44 2018
From: djl at montana.com (djl)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:08:44 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
In-Reply-To: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>
References: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>

start with the power supplies, and go on until morning...
Don

On 2018-02-19 16:57, walter shawlee 2 wrote:
> I recently got a strange little 1U FEI rack mounted unit called an
> FE-7923F-100-1,
> which appears to have rear 10MHz and dual 100Mhz outputs. it is called
> a Frequency Reference Unit.
> 
> sadly, my unit has a fault light, and no outputs. All the internal
> supplies look good, and there is an FE-83AA (10.0Mhz) and FE-1020-100
> (100Mhz) OCXO inside.  both of these work (when measured at the
> oscillators), and seem to have meaningful control including EFC, and I
> tracked down the adjustments in a sea of what seem to be prototype
> boards next to the oscillators. so, I have two good sources,
> adjustable, but still no outputs.
> the OCXO signals disappear into a set of boards with no useful
> markings as to function, and look mainly digital.
> 
> the 100Mhz unit has only about 200mV p-p output, which seems low to
> me, the other has lots of signal. I cannot find any data on either
> unit on line or at the FEI website, so any data that is out there
> would be very welcome, so I can be sure they at least are running
> correctly.
> 
> I am hoping to use this rack as a source of RF reference signals in
> other gear, but clearly I will have to either gut the rest of the
> circuitry and add some new buffers, or figure out the rats nest of
> hand wiring to determine why it's not working.  any help in that area
> hugely appreciated, and I can send pics to anybody interested to know
> more about the internals.
> 
> the rear apron has AC power in, a 10MHz output SMA, a switch next to
> it that says INT/EXT REF. (set to INT), but no way to attach an
> external ref.  then there's a D-Sub filtered connector, that runs to
> the stacked digital boards, but its purpose is unknown as I cannot see
> where the connections go.  there are also two 100Mhz SMA outputs, but
> all outputs are dead, with no signal, and the front ONLINE green LED
> is dark, and the red FAULT LED is lit. the oscillators do not run to
> the rear jacks but disappear into three pcbs.
> 
> hoping for some FEI data if anybody has some to share.
> all the best,
> walter
> 
> --
> Walter Shawlee 2, President
> Sphere Research Corporation
> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


From golgarfrincham at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 22:22:40 2018
From: golgarfrincham at gmail.com (Arthur Dent)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 22:22:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Rubidium for HP 53131A
Message-ID: <CAAaO4s4dL58TVaPnu063tXMvtPZKC_=RAr4h_VThSnS2c0YxVQ@mail.gmail.com>

some time ago I did the same thing to a Fluke/Philips PM6680 counter.
I didn't need the GPIB so I mounted the X72 on the back panel where
the interface would normally go. The 3Ghz board I got from Poland.
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From golgarfrincham at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 23:35:14 2018
From: golgarfrincham at gmail.com (Arthur Dent)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 23:35:14 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
Message-ID: <CAAaO4s5RXvJwg2QsDKGCGpAw7typvMAC7gdoaUk0BM9Kknf7TA@mail.gmail.com>

Some time ago bought one on Ebay for under $50 just because it looked
interesting. It isn't a prototype but most of the FEI units probably
had limited production. It seemed to be more complicated than I
expected it to be but if I understood it better it would make more
sense.

The 10Mhz board is enabled/disabled by the int/external switch. The
10Mhz output and EFC from this oscillator board are connected to the
interface board. I believe that these 2 boards and the switch/connector
on the back allow you to use the internal 10Mhz oscillator to output
10Mhz and send 10Mhz on (perhaps a connector marked J4) to a comparator
board. If I recall this part of the unit should work independant of
the other boards.

The comparator board is probably a PLL that compares its 10Mhz input
with its 100Mhz input and outputs an EFC voltage to the 100Mhz
oscillator. the 100MHz oscillator output goes to the amplifier board
with two 100Mhz outputs on the back panel. There is also a 100Mhz
signal that goes back to the PLL board so the 100Mhz is locked to
the 10Mhz oscillator or an external input (if I remember correctly).

There are also other wires that control the light and other stuff
but I didn't trace them out and my unit seems to work as intended.

From cdelect at juno.com  Mon Feb 19 20:08:40 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 17:08:40 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
Message-ID: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>

Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
shield assembly.

Left to right:

Lamp assy
lamp oven cylinder
lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
Rb85 filter cell
cell oven cylinder/cavity
Rb87 resonance cell

Enjoy!

Cheers,

Corby
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From w1ksz at outlook.com  Mon Feb 19 23:50:10 2018
From: w1ksz at outlook.com (Richard Solomon)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 04:50:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
In-Reply-To: <CAAaO4s5RXvJwg2QsDKGCGpAw7typvMAC7gdoaUk0BM9Kknf7TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAaO4s5RXvJwg2QsDKGCGpAw7typvMAC7gdoaUk0BM9Kknf7TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR14MB0272F9645D3EACE35105438AF8CF0@SN1PR14MB0272.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

There was one listed over on that auction site, it said best offer, so I made a low offer and it was accepted !!

Guess my offer was too high !!


Anyway, it has the Red Fault Light on, so it has issues too.


If anyone finds any info on it, I would appreciate getting it. If I find out anything about it, I will post it here.


Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of Arthur Dent <golgarfrincham at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 9:35:14 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....

Some time ago bought one on Ebay for under $50 just because it looked
interesting. It isn't a prototype but most of the FEI units probably
had limited production. It seemed to be more complicated than I
expected it to be but if I understood it better it would make more
sense.

The 10Mhz board is enabled/disabled by the int/external switch. The
10Mhz output and EFC from this oscillator board are connected to the
interface board. I believe that these 2 boards and the switch/connector
on the back allow you to use the internal 10Mhz oscillator to output
10Mhz and send 10Mhz on (perhaps a connector marked J4) to a comparator
board. If I recall this part of the unit should work independant of
the other boards.

The comparator board is probably a PLL that compares its 10Mhz input
with its 100Mhz input and outputs an EFC voltage to the 100Mhz
oscillator. the 100MHz oscillator output goes to the amplifier board
with two 100Mhz outputs on the back panel. There is also a 100Mhz
signal that goes back to the PLL board so the 100Mhz is locked to
the 10Mhz oscillator or an external input (if I remember correctly).

There are also other wires that control the light and other stuff
but I didn't trace them out and my unit seems to work as intended.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Tue Feb 20 04:30:54 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:30:54 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>, cdelect at juno.com writes:

>Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
>shield assembly.

Nice!

>Left to right:
>
>Lamp assy
>lamp oven cylinder
>lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
>Rb85 filter cell

It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
between the reflector and the filter cell ?

I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.

Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
a linear relationship.

If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
lamp apart and change a resistor.

A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
is a nice bonus.

If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
lower in a matter of minutes.

Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 20 08:18:50 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:18:50 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
In-Reply-To: <CAAaO4s5RXvJwg2QsDKGCGpAw7typvMAC7gdoaUk0BM9Kknf7TA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAaO4s5RXvJwg2QsDKGCGpAw7typvMAC7gdoaUk0BM9Kknf7TA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF5CE922-FA92-4476-A25E-A4D8240778F0@n1k.org>

Hi

If it works like the unit that replaced it, it has a level detect on the external
input that rejects signals below some threshold. It either locks up to the internal
standard or to the external input. All of the outputs are in the 7 to 13 dim range
when operating. 

The fault circuit looks at the OCXO warmup indicators as well as things like 
PLL out of range to pop the fault light. It should have timers to qualify all of 
this stuff. 

There also *may* be an option to pass the external standard through to the
low frequency output connector ( = no PLL on the low frequency). It depends
a bit on which application it was going into. 

Bob

> On Feb 19, 2018, at 11:35 PM, Arthur Dent <golgarfrincham at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Some time ago bought one on Ebay for under $50 just because it looked
> interesting. It isn't a prototype but most of the FEI units probably
> had limited production. It seemed to be more complicated than I
> expected it to be but if I understood it better it would make more
> sense.
> 
> The 10Mhz board is enabled/disabled by the int/external switch. The
> 10Mhz output and EFC from this oscillator board are connected to the
> interface board. I believe that these 2 boards and the switch/connector
> on the back allow you to use the internal 10Mhz oscillator to output
> 10Mhz and send 10Mhz on (perhaps a connector marked J4) to a comparator
> board. If I recall this part of the unit should work independant of
> the other boards.
> 
> The comparator board is probably a PLL that compares its 10Mhz input
> with its 100Mhz input and outputs an EFC voltage to the 100Mhz
> oscillator. the 100MHz oscillator output goes to the amplifier board
> with two 100Mhz outputs on the back panel. There is also a 100Mhz
> signal that goes back to the PLL board so the 100Mhz is locked to
> the 10Mhz oscillator or an external input (if I remember correctly).
> 
> There are also other wires that control the light and other stuff
> but I didn't trace them out and my unit seems to work as intended.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 20 08:24:03 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 08:24:03 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <37F44F25-F504-4378-ABE1-A21407AF4952@n1k.org>

Hi

Indeed very cool pictures.

If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike voltage” required
to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some temperature 
dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.

Bob

> On Feb 20, 2018, at 4:30 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
> --------
> In message <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>, cdelect at juno.com writes:
> 
>> Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
>> shield assembly.
> 
> Nice!
> 
>> Left to right:
>> 
>> Lamp assy
>> lamp oven cylinder
>> lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
>> Rb85 filter cell
> 
> It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
> between the reflector and the filter cell ?
> 
> I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
> 
> Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
> voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
> a linear relationship.
> 
> If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
> its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
> reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
> lamp apart and change a resistor.
> 
> A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
> easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
> is a nice bonus.
> 
> If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
> lower in a matter of minutes.
> 
> Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
> is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
> constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 09:40:49 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:40:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <37F44F25-F504-4378-ABE1-A21407AF4952@n1k.org>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <37F44F25-F504-4378-ABE1-A21407AF4952@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAj78QeCP_iqC8GQMSJd0P9c6nHB+3oeOpksyBtemKQxmw@mail.gmail.com>

Wow on the right, is that the lamp?
Thats one large lamp to light. I am use to the little capsules about the
size of a pr-1 light bulb.
This is a keeper picture.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Indeed very cool pictures.
>
> If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike
> voltage” required
> to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some
> temperature
> dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 20, 2018, at 4:30 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
> wrote:
> >
> > --------
> > In message <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>, cdelect at juno.com
> writes:
> >
> >> Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
> >> shield assembly.
> >
> > Nice!
> >
> >> Left to right:
> >>
> >> Lamp assy
> >> lamp oven cylinder
> >> lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
> >> Rb85 filter cell
> >
> > It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
> > between the reflector and the filter cell ?
> >
> > I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
> >
> > Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
> > voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
> > a linear relationship.
> >
> > If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
> > its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
> > reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
> > lamp apart and change a resistor.
> >
> > A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
> > easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
> > is a nice bonus.
> >
> > If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
> > lower in a matter of minutes.
> >
> > Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
> > is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
> > constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 09:41:56 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:41:56 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAj78QeCP_iqC8GQMSJd0P9c6nHB+3oeOpksyBtemKQxmw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <37F44F25-F504-4378-ABE1-A21407AF4952@n1k.org>
 <CAD2JfAj78QeCP_iqC8GQMSJd0P9c6nHB+3oeOpksyBtemKQxmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAibfWw2By21GW7aLBmr5N=rWpbcVu_Q+ePOtsx9gjdK2w@mail.gmail.com>

Should have carefully read Corby's comment.
Lamps left.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 9:40 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow on the right, is that the lamp?
> Thats one large lamp to light. I am use to the little capsules about the
> size of a pr-1 light bulb.
> This is a keeper picture.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:24 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> Indeed very cool pictures.
>>
>> If the lamp is like most gas bulb lights, there is indeed a “strike
>> voltage” required
>> to get things going (or an RF excitation). There inevitably is some
>> temperature
>> dependence as well. A constant current driver might be the better bet.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> > On Feb 20, 2018, at 4:30 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > --------
>> > In message <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS at smtpout01.dca.untd.com>, cdelect at juno.com
>> writes:
>> >
>> >> Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
>> >> shield assembly.
>> >
>> > Nice!
>> >
>> >> Left to right:
>> >>
>> >> Lamp assy
>> >> lamp oven cylinder
>> >> lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
>> >> Rb85 filter cell
>> >
>> > It looks like there is a square filter of some kind
>> > between the reflector and the filter cell ?
>> >
>> > I've been thinking a little bit more about power for the lamp assembly.
>> >
>> > Since I have the lamp on the bench-supply I am going to plot lamp
>> > voltage vs. photo-I because it looks like a threshold rather than
>> > a linear relationship.
>> >
>> > If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
>> > its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
>> > reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
>> > lamp apart and change a resistor.
>> >
>> > A 1R resistor between the 22-30V supply and the LM317 will make it
>> > easy to monitor lamp current, and a 300mA short-circuit protection
>> > is a nice bonus.
>> >
>> > If need be, the regulator could start out at 20V and drop to something
>> > lower in a matter of minutes.
>> >
>> > Actually, now that I think about it, I should try to measure if it
>> > is gives better stability if I drive the lamp with constant current,
>> > constant power, constant voltage or constant photo-I...
>> >
>> > --
>> > Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> > phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> > FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
>> incompetence.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 11:16:32 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:16:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
In-Reply-To: <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>
References: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>
 <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhLdYG5AfWqVxmD5ZBrOpk8rwurWYq5koW0QV3yXyZR9w@mail.gmail.com>

Walter pure speculation.
Maybe the 100 MHz is superposed to be locked to the 10 MHz.
With a scope see what the drift rates are between the two.
Adjust EFC slowly to get the 100 MHz to go below the 10 MHZ if its running
fast.
See if the light changes to green.
If it does you know that the system is supposed to be locked and they
aren't.
Most semi good systems systems do not allow outputs if there is a fault.
But you know that already.
Pure guess.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 7:08 PM, djl <djl at montana.com> wrote:

> start with the power supplies, and go on until morning...
> Don
>
>
> On 2018-02-19 16:57, walter shawlee 2 wrote:
>
>> I recently got a strange little 1U FEI rack mounted unit called an
>> FE-7923F-100-1,
>> which appears to have rear 10MHz and dual 100Mhz outputs. it is called
>> a Frequency Reference Unit.
>>
>> sadly, my unit has a fault light, and no outputs. All the internal
>> supplies look good, and there is an FE-83AA (10.0Mhz) and FE-1020-100
>> (100Mhz) OCXO inside.  both of these work (when measured at the
>> oscillators), and seem to have meaningful control including EFC, and I
>> tracked down the adjustments in a sea of what seem to be prototype
>> boards next to the oscillators. so, I have two good sources,
>> adjustable, but still no outputs.
>> the OCXO signals disappear into a set of boards with no useful
>> markings as to function, and look mainly digital.
>>
>> the 100Mhz unit has only about 200mV p-p output, which seems low to
>> me, the other has lots of signal. I cannot find any data on either
>> unit on line or at the FEI website, so any data that is out there
>> would be very welcome, so I can be sure they at least are running
>> correctly.
>>
>> I am hoping to use this rack as a source of RF reference signals in
>> other gear, but clearly I will have to either gut the rest of the
>> circuitry and add some new buffers, or figure out the rats nest of
>> hand wiring to determine why it's not working.  any help in that area
>> hugely appreciated, and I can send pics to anybody interested to know
>> more about the internals.
>>
>> the rear apron has AC power in, a 10MHz output SMA, a switch next to
>> it that says INT/EXT REF. (set to INT), but no way to attach an
>> external ref.  then there's a D-Sub filtered connector, that runs to
>> the stacked digital boards, but its purpose is unknown as I cannot see
>> where the connections go.  there are also two 100Mhz SMA outputs, but
>> all outputs are dead, with no signal, and the front ONLINE green LED
>> is dark, and the red FAULT LED is lit. the oscillators do not run to
>> the rear jacks but disappear into three pcbs.
>>
>> hoping for some FEI data if anybody has some to share.
>> all the best,
>> walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Shawlee 2, President
>> Sphere Research Corporation
>> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
>> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
>> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
>> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
>> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
>> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Don Latham
> PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
> VOX: 406-626-4304
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From k8yumdoober at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 08:49:56 2018
From: k8yumdoober at gmail.com (Dana Whitlow)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 07:49:56 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CADHrwpewAbu0uGYVRNmg9Fnn7SKdbq43yZ36kU+Gj5vnOCqhiA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm curious:

Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?

And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
or by capacitive electrodes?

Thanks,

Dana




On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 7:08 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
> shield assembly.
>
> Left to right:
>
> Lamp assy
> lamp oven cylinder
> lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
> Rb85 filter cell
> cell oven cylinder/cavity
> Rb87 resonance cell
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 11:32:40 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:32:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <CADHrwpewAbu0uGYVRNmg9Fnn7SKdbq43yZ36kU+Gj5vnOCqhiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <CADHrwpewAbu0uGYVRNmg9Fnn7SKdbq43yZ36kU+Gj5vnOCqhiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAhi3+WyfNWmSnuMaJ2+pFG+2NO1dzN=-CJj9vOFdeM04w@mail.gmail.com>

Its RF and mag loop.

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Dana Whitlow <k8yumdoober at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm curious:
>
> Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?
>
> And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
> or by capacitive electrodes?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dana
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 7:08 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
>
> > Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
> > shield assembly.
> >
> > Left to right:
> >
> > Lamp assy
> > lamp oven cylinder
> > lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
> > Rb85 filter cell
> > cell oven cylinder/cavity
> > Rb87 resonance cell
> >
> > Enjoy!
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Corby
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 11:35:41 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 11:35:41 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAhi3+WyfNWmSnuMaJ2+pFG+2NO1dzN=-CJj9vOFdeM04w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <CADHrwpewAbu0uGYVRNmg9Fnn7SKdbq43yZ36kU+Gj5vnOCqhiA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD2JfAhi3+WyfNWmSnuMaJ2+pFG+2NO1dzN=-CJj9vOFdeM04w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAj4KNmYWHxTCkS5kG5U6=gCJtjWZvZEH936zK8-wOQ8bg@mail.gmail.com>

Corby
Really appreciate the pix.
Curious. How hard was it to open the oven up and then is it equally
reasonable to re-assemble it.
I will guess its reasonable since you insert the filter into the system.
Really curious do you see the bulb darken as if the RB is plating out?
Thats what I see on older small FE RB's.
Thank you.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:32 AM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:

> Its RF and mag loop.
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Dana Whitlow <k8yumdoober at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm curious:
>>
>> Is the lamp RF-excited, or by DC going to internal electrodes?
>>
>> And if by RF, is the energy coupled in magnetically by a loop,
>> or by capacitive electrodes?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dana
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 7:08 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Here is a PIX of the optical unit from a 5065A totally removed from the
>> > shield assembly.
>> >
>> > Left to right:
>> >
>> > Lamp assy
>> > lamp oven cylinder
>> > lamp reflector/convection block/diffuser
>> > Rb85 filter cell
>> > cell oven cylinder/cavity
>> > Rb87 resonance cell
>> >
>> > Enjoy!
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Corby
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
>

From cdelect at juno.com  Tue Feb 20 13:03:20 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
Message-ID: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>

Paul,

You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!

It's never going to operate again.

If you look at the lamp in the PIX you will see a white coil wrapped
around the bulb.

This is the tank for the 90Mhz drive and it sits cocked at a 45 degree
angle.

The lamp assy can be removed easily via 3 small screws and repaired or
modified.

The Lamp circuit is designed to put out a bit higher RF level and once
the lamp starts it drops down a bit.

I would question re-engineering the lamp circuit as it can easily reach
1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec stability and 5X10-14th at 100 Sec. with the
filter mod.

Unless you have a maser or BVA to compare against how will you know if
any modifications are going to help or hurt?

The only thing I replace even if it measures OK is the 1.33K resistor as
it will "crack" eventually and change value.

A 1.3K 5% 1W metal oxide works well.

Cheers,

Corby


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 13:10:16 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 13:10:16 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAgQ96deHO8tJrAqqX3iPU-Zxb0=UG_eRLinrAvcetP+kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Corby no intent to rework the bulb.
Its just I have had good success with bulbs from the FE-XXXX series when
they fail to operate by heating the bulb to re-vaporize the "Stuff" that
plates out. Wasn't sure if this would be an approach on the 5065 when that
day comes for mine.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 1:03 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
>
> It's never going to operate again.
>
> If you look at the lamp in the PIX you will see a white coil wrapped
> around the bulb.
>
> This is the tank for the 90Mhz drive and it sits cocked at a 45 degree
> angle.
>
> The lamp assy can be removed easily via 3 small screws and repaired or
> modified.
>
> The Lamp circuit is designed to put out a bit higher RF level and once
> the lamp starts it drops down a bit.
>
> I would question re-engineering the lamp circuit as it can easily reach
> 1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec stability and 5X10-14th at 100 Sec. with the
> filter mod.
>
> Unless you have a maser or BVA to compare against how will you know if
> any modifications are going to help or hurt?
>
> The only thing I replace even if it measures OK is the 1.33K resistor as
> it will "crack" eventually and change value.
>
> A 1.3K 5% 1W metal oxide works well.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From marklgoldberg at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 11:36:49 2018
From: marklgoldberg at gmail.com (Mark Goldberg)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:49 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAKn+a3ucX1OyB7iw7WUqQ-AztnLoNVZPWxsGhZaD29hhtL-gSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 2:30 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> If that is the case, I think it will make sense to give the lamp
> its own adjustable voltage regulator (LM317), so the power can be
> reduced to what is optimal/necessary without having to take the
> lamp apart and change a resistor.
>

I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.

Regards,

Mark

From ka2weu at aol.com  Tue Feb 20 18:01:44 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 18:01:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Cady Award , Enrico Rubiola
In-Reply-To: <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>
References: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>
 <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>
Message-ID: <B3907425-2E20-4542-9B9C-2C2E9505C2BE@aol.com>



> Dear Enrico:
>  
> Let me be the first to congratulate you on winning the 2018 Cady Award “For ground-breaking contributions to noise analysis and signal-source theory, and experimental achievements in the electronic and photonic domains.”  I hope you will be able to join us at the 2018 IEEE Frequency Control Symposium, which will be held at Squaw Creek Resort, Lake Tahoe, California on May 21-24, where we can properly recognize your achievements with the formal presentation of the award.  Again, congratulations on receiving this well-deserved distinction.
>  
> Best regards,
> James
>  
> James Camparo, Ph.D.
> IEEE IFCS Awards Committee Chair
>  
> Aerospace Fellow
> The Aerospace Corporation


Sent from my iPhone



From w9gb at icloud.com  Tue Feb 20 22:33:27 2018
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 21:33:27 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] DCF77 Time/Data Display Project
Message-ID: <4FF8BFEE-2274-4928-B0ED-78BFABE180DA@icloud.com>

DCF77 is a German longwave time signal and standard-frequency radio station.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DCF77

There are commercial receivers and readers for DCF77, 
but this DIY project by Erik Deruiter from the Netherlands
using the Arduino MEGA from 2016 was unique.
https://youtu.be/ZadSU_DT-Ks

Github (V2.0), 
https://github.com/deruiter

Flickr photo gallery
https://www.flickr.com/photos/edr1924/albums/72157666568222444/

greg

Sent from iPad Air

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Feb 21 10:33:02 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:33:02 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <20180221163302.eedc9212ddbda62cd047247f@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800
<cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
> 
> It's never going to operate again.

Why not? Is there something you had to break to open it up this far?

			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Feb 21 10:35:11 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:35:11 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <CAKn+a3ucX1OyB7iw7WUqQ-AztnLoNVZPWxsGhZaD29hhtL-gSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAKn+a3ucX1OyB7iw7WUqQ-AztnLoNVZPWxsGhZaD29hhtL-gSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180221163511.b8d6eec26415fe16e66e44f1@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:49 -0700
Mark Goldberg <marklgoldberg at gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
> noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
> well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
> something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.

It's >30dB for broadband noise, according to Gerhard Hoffmann's measurement:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711 at N07/24070698809/in/album-72157662535945536/

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 10:38:04 2018
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 10:38:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <20180221163302.eedc9212ddbda62cd047247f@kinali.ch>
References: <AABPJ224MA3MJAYS@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <20180221163302.eedc9212ddbda62cd047247f@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <3182669E-5CB9-4259-A3E3-FA50A236BFC1@gmail.com>

WRT Rb on the envelope,  the 5065A has a built in 'cold trap' to recover the Rb into the reservoir,   Instructions on use are in the manual

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Feb 21, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 10:03:20 -0800
<cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> You do NOT want to take one apart to this level!
> 
> It's never going to operate again.

Why not? Is there something you had to break to open it up this far?

           Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Feb 21 10:37:53 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:37:53 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <20180221163511.b8d6eec26415fe16e66e44f1@kinali.ch>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAKn+a3ucX1OyB7iw7WUqQ-AztnLoNVZPWxsGhZaD29hhtL-gSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221163511.b8d6eec26415fe16e66e44f1@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <45855.1519227473@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20180221163511.b8d6eec26415fe16e66e44f1 at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w
rites:
>On Tue, 20 Feb 2018 09:36:49 -0700
>Mark Goldberg <marklgoldberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't know anything about these devices, but for TCXOs, the power supply
>> noise significantly affects the phase noise of the output. An LM317 is not
>> well specified for noise and I expect is is orders of magnitude worse than
>> something like an LT3042 low noise regulator.
>
>It's >30dB for broadband noise, according to Gerhard Hoffmann's measurement:
>https://www.flickr.com/photos/137684711 at N07/24070698809/in/album-72157662535945536/

Just to point out that you are rapidly heading down a blind alley from
where this topic started:

I was talking about driving the single-transistor UHF generator which
ionizes the Rb in the lamp, so far I have not even established if
this voltage affects the HP5065 performance in the first place.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Feb 21 10:44:32 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:44:32 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
In-Reply-To: <45855.1519227473@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <AABPJY7PFAJKDQYS@smtpout01.dca.untd.com>
 <45300.1519119054@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAKn+a3ucX1OyB7iw7WUqQ-AztnLoNVZPWxsGhZaD29hhtL-gSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180221163511.b8d6eec26415fe16e66e44f1@kinali.ch>
 <45855.1519227473@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20180221164432.6d5ae820026ec43d510ce90f@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 15:37:53 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> I was talking about driving the single-transistor UHF generator which
> ionizes the Rb in the lamp, so far I have not even established if
> this voltage affects the HP5065 performance in the first place.

Oops... sorry, I missed that piece of context.
Yes, it is very unlikely that the noise of lamp power supply
would affect anything. At most, I could imagine that the frequency
drift of the lamp oscillator could maybe have some effects, but
even that is rather unlikely or swamped by other disturbances.

				Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Wed Feb 21 12:49:28 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:49:28 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
	standards
Message-ID: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>

Moin,

Has anyone ever tried using a LED instead of a discharge lamp for Rb standards?
There are quite a few and very cheap 780nm IR LEDs available. They usually
have a line width in the order of 20nm to 50nm (FWHM). This means that they
still need the Rb85 filter, but they would not produce all those spectral lines
that the discharge lamp has, thus one could get rid of the (not so cheap)
optical filter that Corby uses for the super-5065. 

The one thing I am not sure about is the filter efficiency of Rb85.
Because now the light isn't two discrete lines from the Rb87 lamb
of which one needs to be masked, but a continuous and wide spectrum.
So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
that are in the RF cavity.

As a side-effect, you also get easier regulation of the light intensity
of the LED, thus potentially less instability due to light-shift variation.
Beside the LED operation being much simpler than that of a discharge lamp
and overall less heat dissipation.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Wed Feb 21 12:56:33 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 12:56:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
	standards
In-Reply-To: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAgAj6iHZbN81fVhR0UDkrN89xX-8sKSy2xyq4NGN9hACA@mail.gmail.com>

Attila I haven't tried that and I suspect the lines are important because
that establishes the reference.
Now I would also suggest that an experiment like you suggest be tried on a
FRS-XXX cheapy Rb.
Easily dis-assembled and can be re-assembled back with the lamp. No harm.
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:49 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

> Moin,
>
> Has anyone ever tried using a LED instead of a discharge lamp for Rb
> standards?
> There are quite a few and very cheap 780nm IR LEDs available. They usually
> have a line width in the order of 20nm to 50nm (FWHM). This means that they
> still need the Rb85 filter, but they would not produce all those spectral
> lines
> that the discharge lamp has, thus one could get rid of the (not so cheap)
> optical filter that Corby uses for the super-5065.
>
> The one thing I am not sure about is the filter efficiency of Rb85.
> Because now the light isn't two discrete lines from the Rb87 lamb
> of which one needs to be masked, but a continuous and wide spectrum.
> So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
> and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
> that are in the RF cavity.
>
> As a side-effect, you also get easier regulation of the light intensity
> of the LED, thus potentially less instability due to light-shift variation.
> Beside the LED operation being much simpler than that of a discharge lamp
> and overall less heat dissipation.
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From cdelect at juno.com  Wed Feb 21 13:06:22 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 10:06:22 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] The "NAKED" 5065A optical unit
Message-ID: <AABPJ5PMMA52JR9S@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>

Attila,

The Child and oven windings were destroyed pulling the oven cylinders out
of the potting.

I suppose you could replicate them and try to repot but I'm never going
to try!

Cheers,

Corby

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Wed Feb 21 13:10:17 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:10:17 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
	standards
In-Reply-To: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <84940.1519236617@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181 at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w
rites:

>So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
>and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
>that are in the RF cavity.

I have a hard time seeing how you can not get worse S/N that way.

If you want to do it with a LED, I think it needs to be a stabilized
LED-Laser.


-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Wed Feb 21 13:34:35 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:34:35 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
 standards
In-Reply-To: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <B75DF51A-2650-47C4-8685-685B2AD0A228@n1k.org>

Hi

There are a number of papers on LED / Laser excitation of Rb cells (and 
other gas cells). They go back quite a ways. The gotcha (as pointed out 
in PHK’s post) is that you need to stabilize the LED source. Doing that is 
a bit complex. Doing that so that the result beats a gas lamp is a bit more 
involved than just getting it working. Part of the problem is that there are 
a number of transitions you can hit and you only want the “right” one. The
next layer is the signal to noise once you get on the right transition 

Based on the examples I have seen on my bench, the ADEV of a typical 
laser based unit is not super duper compared to Corby’s modified units. 
In defense of the designers, they normally are targeting small size rather 
than super stability. That’s what the market wants to buy …. If you are 
spending tens (or hundreds) of millions of dollars, you focus on a product 
you can sell a lot of. 

Bob

> On Feb 21, 2018, at 12:49 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> Moin,
> 
> Has anyone ever tried using a LED instead of a discharge lamp for Rb standards?
> There are quite a few and very cheap 780nm IR LEDs available. They usually
> have a line width in the order of 20nm to 50nm (FWHM). This means that they
> still need the Rb85 filter, but they would not produce all those spectral lines
> that the discharge lamp has, thus one could get rid of the (not so cheap)
> optical filter that Corby uses for the super-5065. 
> 
> The one thing I am not sure about is the filter efficiency of Rb85.
> Because now the light isn't two discrete lines from the Rb87 lamb
> of which one needs to be masked, but a continuous and wide spectrum.
> So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
> and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
> that are in the RF cavity.
> 
> As a side-effect, you also get easier regulation of the light intensity
> of the LED, thus potentially less instability due to light-shift variation.
> Beside the LED operation being much simpler than that of a discharge lamp
> and overall less heat dissipation.
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ewkehren at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 07:00:54 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:00:54 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
Message-ID: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>


In December I lucked out buying a HP5065A for a very reasonable price, as is not tested. Turns out it was not working and I was not able to fix it. Corby to the rescue. Corby and I have shared many projects over the past, go back over 15 years, as a matter of fact he introduced me to time-nuts. Took Corbe over a week to find the problem, a defective Rb87 reference cell. Never seen before, no crack visible but obviously no Rb87. Corby had a replacement and the result is that it is the third best 5065A he has ever worked with. The logical choice is the super conversion. Not dramatic improvement because it was already very good.
Now a step by step work over, including HP mods for later  units like replacing the 74196’s in the synthesizer module with 74LS196. May have been end of life of the 74196.
Now to the purpose of this post. The A9 module is after 88 a significant change and Corby sees an improvement against his Maser. We are doing a board and maybe some other will be interested.
Here are the issues
A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor
B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies
C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.
Bert Kehren

From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Feb 22 08:22:36 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:22:36 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
 standards
In-Reply-To: <84940.1519236617@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
 <84940.1519236617@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20180222142236.bcd4a971e60724ce5a8bfc60@kinali.ch>

On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:10:17 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> >So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
> >and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
> >that are in the RF cavity.
> 
> I have a hard time seeing how you can not get worse S/N that way.


Well, the question is how much? Keep in mind that an Rb lamp is
anything but a clean light source. 

> If you want to do it with a LED, I think it needs to be a stabilized
> LED-Laser.

The problem with a Laser is that you need to lock it to the
right line. This requires either some significant change to the
electronics of the Rb standard, or an additional vapor cell and
some optics to lock it to that cell. Neither is trivial (apparently,
according to the papers I've read, not difficult, but I don't trust
that until I have tried myself).

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 22 08:53:38 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 08:53:38 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
 standards
In-Reply-To: <20180222142236.bcd4a971e60724ce5a8bfc60@kinali.ch>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
 <84940.1519236617@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20180222142236.bcd4a971e60724ce5a8bfc60@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <2C856535-080F-435C-98F9-76470DF27F8A@n1k.org>

Hi


> On Feb 22, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:10:17 +0000
> "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
> 
>>> So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
>>> and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
>>> that are in the RF cavity.
>> 
>> I have a hard time seeing how you can not get worse S/N that way.
> 
> 
> Well, the question is how much? Keep in mind that an Rb lamp is
> anything but a clean light source. 

The point is that it’s clean where it matters. It does not dump a bunch of
energy into the transitions that you want to avoid.

Bob

> 
>> If you want to do it with a LED, I think it needs to be a stabilized
>> LED-Laser.
> 
> The problem with a Laser is that you need to lock it to the
> right line. This requires either some significant change to the
> electronics of the Rb standard, or an additional vapor cell and
> some optics to lock it to that cell. Neither is trivial (apparently,
> according to the papers I've read, not difficult, but I don't trust
> that until I have tried myself).
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Feb 22 08:55:18 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:55:18 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <20180222145518.7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33@kinali.ch>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:00:54 -0500
ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Now a step by step work over, including HP mods for later  units like 
> replacing the 74196’s in the synthesizer module with 74LS196. May have been 
> end of life of the 74196.

With some slight change of the circuit, you should be able to replace
the 74196 by an 74163 which is available as LVC and thus should be
around for the next 10-20 years at least.

> Now to the purpose of this post. The A9 module is after 88 a significant 
> change and Corby sees an improvement against his Maser. We are doing a board 
> and maybe some other will be interested.

What does the A9 module do, for those of us who have not learned the inner
workings of the 5065 by heart? "Integrator Assembly" doesn't say too much....

> Here are the issues
> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 
> 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor

What are your constraints? For every single parameter, there is an opamp
that beats the LT1793.
Do you just want to replace the opamp on A9 or build a new A9 from scratch?
If you can live with a power supply <12V, then I'd go for the LTC6240HV.

> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies

Depends on the noise of the power supply. My experience is, that resistors
in the power path causes more trouble than not having them. Though, I highly
suspect those were mostly caused by improper design. If you have problem with
noise on the power supply, I would rather suggest to use some low noise
LDOs instead. The TPS7Axx family from TI has quite a few offerings of
suitable LDOs. They are not on par with the LT3042, but they beat anything
you will have in 5065. And they are easier to solder :-)


> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, 
> or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.

There are gold plating solutions available, if you want to do it at home.
Though I would suggest to choose a PCB manufacturer that offers it.
In europe, i'd recommend Eurocircuits, but i'm pretty sure you have a
similarly cheap shop in the US. There are probably some shops in China
that offer that as well. Mind you, gold plating will increase the PCB
cost considerably, as it's a non-standard process. Not to mention that
you need hard gold for connector contacts, which is different from the
standard gold plating you will get as surface finish.


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Thu Feb 22 09:04:30 2018
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:04:30 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <5A8ECDEE.5070906@yandex.com>

> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor
> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies
> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.

A.  The 1793 is a good choice.  You should look at the LT1012 also.  The 
headlines on the 1793 datasheet suggest it is significantly quieter than 
the 1012.  HOWEVER: you are particularly interested in frequencies well 
below 10Hz, and due to an extremely low 1/f noise corner, the 1012 is 
actually 5x quieter than the 1793 between 0.1 and 10 Hz (0.5uV for the 
1012 p-p vs. 2.4uV p-p for the 1793).  The 1012 can also be 
overcompensated, which could be a significant advantage in this 
application.  [Note that the 1793 has lower input current noise than the 
1012, but that is irrelevant in the HP circuit because of the relatively 
low impedances at the op-amp inputs.  Because of that, the input voltage 
noise dominates the total noise.]

B.  If you do this, the decoupling has to be good down through at least 
milliHz, maybe even microHz.  That would require capacitors in the 1F 
range with suitable decoupling resistors (100 ohms or below).  The op 
amp is fed by dedicated +/- regulators, so you'll get the best result by 
just using the lowest-noise regulators available.  That means the LT3042 
for V+.  You will have to pore through datasheets to find the 
lowest-noise negative regulator available today (as above, paying 
particular attention to the noise specs below 1Hz).

C.  You normally just tell the board house to plate the edge fingers. 
It is not outrageously expensive.  OR, here is another, heretical 
suggestion:  I have designed a number of plug-in daughterboards using 
ENIG finish on the whole board, including the edge fingers.  *NOTE* this 
is an "off-label" use of ENIG finish.  The board house I used for the 
first batch of ENIG-plated fingers (ITEAD Studio) gave me very robust 
plating, so I have continued to use them for boards with ENIG-plated 
edge fingers.

I tested a number of the cards over more than 100 insertion-removal 
cycles, and viewed under magnification there was very little wear and 
absolutely no nickel or copper showing ("ENIG" stands for "electroless 
nickel immersion gold," meaning the copper is coated first with nickle 
and then with gold.  The boards I've tested have not worn through the 
gold even after >100 insertion-removal cycles -- way, way more than any 
plug-in board is likely ever to see.)

*NB:*  ENIG plating varies widely from one board house to another, and 
very likely varies somewhat from one batch to another at any particular 
board house, so YMMV!!!  I've done a dozen or so projects with 
ENIG-plated fingers using ITEAD Studio, and have been very pleased with 
the results each time.

Charles



From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 09:18:28 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 06:18:28 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] read of the wire - the Clock of the Long Now
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9DQpcZDcOScpPQUPqrGGSukkPE+LWbEaijDaaogVRFRA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.theengineer.co.uk/10000-year-clock-texan-mountain/

From ewkehren at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 09:24:53 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:24:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <20180222145518.7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <161bde70929-489b-2fcb@webjas-vac036.srv.aolmail.net>

Attached the schematic of the A9 my file of the picture is to large it is the integrator. I just gave Corby my extra A12  RVFR that at one time I was going to do something along the way you suggested but age and the number of projects on our list have ought up with reality. Remember when you visited us you got an idea of what we are working on and what has been completed.LED Laser pumping was on our list, we have some ideas and have kicked them around off list. Decided to focus on 5065A
On a related subject long term tests on my HP 5061B with the new tube  show better than 1E-13 my plan is to discipline the 5065A with it using the 600 second Wenzel circuit. Laying out a new board and have Corby compare it against his Maser.
We have a temperature and pressure board for FRK and M100 but I do not think it will be needed with 600 seconds.
Bert Kehren
 
In a message dated 2/22/2018 8:55:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, attila at kinali.ch writes:

 
 On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:00:54 -0500
ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Now a step by step work over, including HP mods for later  units like 
> replacing the 74196’s in the synthesizer module with 74LS196. May have been 
> end of life of the 74196.

With some slight change of the circuit, you should be able to replace
the 74196 by an 74163 which is available as LVC and thus should be
around for the next 10-20 years at least.

> Now to the purpose of this post. The A9 module is after 88 a significant 
> change and Corby sees an improvement against his Maser. We are doing a board 
> and maybe some other will be interested.

What does the A9 module do, for those of us who have not learned the inner
workings of the 5065 by heart? "Integrator Assembly" doesn't say too much....

> Here are the issues
> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 
> 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor

What are your constraints? For every single parameter, there is an opamp
that beats the LT1793.
Do you just want to replace the opamp on A9 or build a new A9 from scratch?
If you can live with a power supply <12V, then I'd go for the LTC6240HV.

> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies

Depends on the noise of the power supply. My experience is, that resistors
in the power path causes more trouble than not having them. Though, I highly
suspect those were mostly caused by improper design. If you have problem with
noise on the power supply, I would rather suggest to use some low noise
LDOs instead. The TPS7Axx family from TI has quite a few offerings of
suitable LDOs. They are not on par with the LT3042, but they beat anything
you will have in 5065. And they are easier to solder :-)


> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, 
> or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.

There are gold plating solutions available, if you want to do it at home.
Though I would suggest to choose a PCB manufacturer that offers it.
In europe, i'd recommend Eurocircuits, but i'm pretty sure you have a
similarly cheap shop in the US. There are probably some shops in China
that offer that as well. Mind you, gold plating will increase the PCB
cost considerably, as it's a non-standard process. Not to mention that
you need hard gold for connector contacts, which is different from the
standard gold plating you will get as surface finish.


 Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
-------------- next part --------------
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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 22 09:26:21 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:26:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <5A8ECDEE.5070906@yandex.com>
References: <161bd6341da-25c8-23a7@webjas-vac111.srv.aolmail.net>
 <5A8ECDEE.5070906@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <020B0AC8-BCFC-42EB-89F2-3A5700AAA7DA@n1k.org>

Hi

The control loop (of which A9 is a part) ultimately locks the OCXO in the 5065 to the Rb 
transition. Gain in the control loop suppresses the noise of the OCXO, making it’s ADEV
better than it would have been stand alone. 

Ok so far? Bob’s not off the tracks (yet)? 

The various processes that create ADEV (or whatever you want to call it) on the OCXO 
could be translated back to an “equivalent EFC noise” number at various frequencies. 
More or less, assume an ideal OCXO and blame all the problems on some little noise
source in series with the EFC line. Very much like blaming all the noise in an op amp on
the input stage. 

Still ok (if a bit unconventional) ? 

At this point one should be able to sum the magic EFC noise with op amp noise or whatever
else you are worried about and compare their magnitudes. If one is 1/100th of the other 
then maybe it’s not the thing to worry about. Yes, you could carry it on through the various 
control loop equations and get things even more correct. 

No, I haven’t done all of this, but it seems to be a way to come up with a fairly detailed answer
to “what’s good enough” in the control loop, 

Bob

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 9:04 AM, Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
> 
>> A    is the LT1793 the best choice the time constant is 0.05 seconds with a 10 K resistor and 5 uF Capacitor
>> B    should we add resistors and decoupling on the + - 15 volt op amp supplies
>> C    Gold plating the edge connecter,  does any one know a reasonable source, or is doing it at home an option and if yes, how best way to do so.
> 
> A.  The 1793 is a good choice.  You should look at the LT1012 also.  The headlines on the 1793 datasheet suggest it is significantly quieter than the 1012.  HOWEVER: you are particularly interested in frequencies well below 10Hz, and due to an extremely low 1/f noise corner, the 1012 is actually 5x quieter than the 1793 between 0.1 and 10 Hz (0.5uV for the 1012 p-p vs. 2.4uV p-p for the 1793).  The 1012 can also be overcompensated, which could be a significant advantage in this application.  [Note that the 1793 has lower input current noise than the 1012, but that is irrelevant in the HP circuit because of the relatively low impedances at the op-amp inputs.  Because of that, the input voltage noise dominates the total noise.]
> 
> B.  If you do this, the decoupling has to be good down through at least milliHz, maybe even microHz.  That would require capacitors in the 1F range with suitable decoupling resistors (100 ohms or below).  The op amp is fed by dedicated +/- regulators, so you'll get the best result by just using the lowest-noise regulators available.  That means the LT3042 for V+.  You will have to pore through datasheets to find the lowest-noise negative regulator available today (as above, paying particular attention to the noise specs below 1Hz).
> 
> C.  You normally just tell the board house to plate the edge fingers. It is not outrageously expensive.  OR, here is another, heretical suggestion:  I have designed a number of plug-in daughterboards using ENIG finish on the whole board, including the edge fingers.  *NOTE* this is an "off-label" use of ENIG finish.  The board house I used for the first batch of ENIG-plated fingers (ITEAD Studio) gave me very robust plating, so I have continued to use them for boards with ENIG-plated edge fingers.
> 
> I tested a number of the cards over more than 100 insertion-removal cycles, and viewed under magnification there was very little wear and absolutely no nickel or copper showing ("ENIG" stands for "electroless nickel immersion gold," meaning the copper is coated first with nickle and then with gold.  The boards I've tested have not worn through the gold even after >100 insertion-removal cycles -- way, way more than any plug-in board is likely ever to see.)
> 
> *NB:*  ENIG plating varies widely from one board house to another, and very likely varies somewhat from one batch to another at any particular board house, so YMMV!!!  I've done a dozen or so projects with ENIG-plated fingers using ITEAD Studio, and have been very pleased with the results each time.
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From pete at petelancashire.com  Thu Feb 22 09:44:53 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 06:44:53 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-ohQTHxtHHtHaOAapWZkB7pC2SWwh1a3n8kLgCy3eW4Q@mail.gmail.com>

no reason other then .... curious

-pete

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 09:50:53 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:50:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] read of the wire - the Clock of the Long Now
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9DQpcZDcOScpPQUPqrGGSukkPE+LWbEaijDaaogVRFRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u9DQpcZDcOScpPQUPqrGGSukkPE+LWbEaijDaaogVRFRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAi6F_TOJmJmspCdncsfMYycdyncsHg3vDEGqWdecK-OVA@mail.gmail.com>

Pete,
Any updates from your doctor?
Regards
Paul

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:18 AM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com>
wrote:

> https://www.theengineer.co.uk/10000-year-clock-texan-mountain/
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Thu Feb 22 09:52:19 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:52:19 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-ohQTHxtHHtHaOAapWZkB7pC2SWwh1a3n8kLgCy3eW4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.2.1519311152.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Do not know but it is the holy grail of AV nuts short of a Maser  or 8607Bert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> Date: 2/22/18  9:44 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A 
no reason other then .... curious

-pete
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Feb 22 10:02:56 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:02:56 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <161bde70929-489b-2fcb@webjas-vac036.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <20180222145518.7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33@kinali.ch>
 <161bde70929-489b-2fcb@webjas-vac036.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da9160230c@kinali.ch>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:24:53 -0500
ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Attached the schematic of the A9 my file of the picture is to large it is the
> integrator. 

Ah.. this looks significantly different than my 5065 service manual shows.

So, I guess you want to build a new board that replaces this?

Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.
I agree with Charles that you want to have low noise power supplies,
though I think using a much cheaper and easier to solder TPS7A49
together with an TPS7A3001 should be more than enough, considering
that the LTC6240HV has a PSRR of >80dB.

If you need more than +/-5V range for the EFC, I'd add an
LTC2057 or LT6018 as amplifier stage after the integrator,
powered from +/-15V.

An alternative design would be to use a discrete JFET/MOSFET
input stage together with an LT6018. But you'd need to select
your FET carefully, as it then would limit your 1/f noise and
determine your leakage current.

				Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Thu Feb 22 10:33:50 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:33:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da9160230c@kinali.ch>
References: <20180222145518.7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33@kinali.ch>
 <161bde70929-489b-2fcb@webjas-vac036.srv.aolmail.net>
 <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da9160230c@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <33786.1519313630@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da9160230c at kinali.ch>, Attila Kinali w
rites:

>Ah.. this looks significantly different than my 5065 service manual shows.
>
>So, I guess you want to build a new board that replaces this?
>
>Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.

Offset voltage (stability) is a, if not the, *very* important
parameter for the integrator.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From attila at kinali.ch  Thu Feb 22 10:46:14 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:46:14 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <33786.1519313630@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <20180222145518.7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33@kinali.ch>
 <161bde70929-489b-2fcb@webjas-vac036.srv.aolmail.net>
 <20180222160256.68d832a88fc2d7da9160230c@kinali.ch>
 <33786.1519313630@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <20180222164614.99e30c37e7b1b96fa47a6f54@kinali.ch>

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:33:50 +0000
"Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:

> >Then i would go for the LTC6240HV with a +/-5V power supply.
> 
> Offset voltage (stability) is a, if not the, *very* important
> parameter for the integrator.

That's another reason to choose the LTC6240 over the LT1793.
Beside the smaller 1/f noise (0.55µVpp vs 2.4µVpp), the LTC6240
has a much lower temperature coefficient (0.7µV/°C vs 8µV/°C).

The biggest drawback of the LT6240HV is its limited input range
of -5V to +3V (for a +/-5V supply). But in an integrator application,
this shouldn't be a problem (phase reversal is prevented by the 10k
input resistor). 


			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From holrum at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 14:02:25 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB10245F3DE50EB8B8BCA4375CCECD0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15 per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder paste properly covers the pads.

And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to have the best gold finish.

Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+ for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.  

From timeok at timeok.it  Thu Feb 22 14:03:57 2018
From: timeok at timeok.it (timeok at timeok.it)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 20:03:57 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A and B, or Super, Phase Noise
In-Reply-To: <20180222164614.99e30c37e7b1b96fa47a6f54@kinali.ch>
References: =?iso-8859-1?q?=3C20180222145518=2E7db65259a7b4981ebb942e33=40kinali?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?=2Ech=3E_=3C161bde70929=2D489b=2D2fcb=40webjas=2Dvac03?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?6=2Esrv=2Eaolmail=2Enet=3E_=3C20180222160256=2E68d832a?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?88fc2d7da9160230c=40kinali=2Ech=3E_=3C33786=2E15193136?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?30=40critter=2Efreebsd=2Edk=3E_=3C20180222164614=2E99e?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?30c37e7b1b96fa47a6f54=40kinali=2Ech=3E?=
Message-ID: <P4KFML$181A5FE4DFD73597AD6E1293DAE26463@timeok.it>


   I have done some measurements about the Phase noise of a standard "A" and a 780nm Filter installed called "B" or super HP5065.
   As you can say B is lower as noise of 0dB at 1Hz, 5dB at 10Hz, 10dB at 100Hz and 5db at 1kHz.
   Setup is an HP3048A and Reference is a calibrated Wenzel 500 serie OCXO.
   Tests are done on two copuple of HP5065A, two original and two modified to B.
   Luciano
   www.timeok.it
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From leo at leobodnar.com  Thu Feb 22 15:29:51 2018
From: leo at leobodnar.com (Leo Bodnar)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 20:29:51 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>

Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might find useful.

I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, covered with ENIG.

Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.

I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf

In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.  
As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."

Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed or not.

Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a headache or two for unsuspecting.

Leo

> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
> From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> 
> Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15 per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder paste properly covers the pads.
> 
> And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to have the best gold finish.
> 
> Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+ for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.  


From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 14:48:24 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:48:24 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>

For those who have been following the saga of the Chinese made, eBay
purchased antenna that failed, I may have an answer as to why it failed.
I had to destructively disassemble it. I just could not get it apart any
other way. I used a Chinese version of a Dremel tool with a metal saw
blade. After making a huge mess with plastic particles everywhere, it
revealed a circular FR4 board with two patch antennas mounted, one atop the
other. I assume the smaller one to be the L1, and the larger to be L2. This
part looks almost identical to the Trimble Microcentered antenna I worked
on recently. On the back side of this is a metal shield  about 3 by 3
inches soldered to the circular FR4 board. I switched to a abrasive wheel
and took off some of the solder holding the shield to the board. Then,
using a small screw driver, I went around the shield breaking the solder
loose. The shield off revealed that the coax goes to some capacitors that
couple RF out and through an inductor with some capacitors to ground and
finally to a SOT23-5 package labelled LK33. This appears to be a Micrel
MIC5203 3.3 volt regulator. It is shorted on the input side. I believe that
putting anything over 7.5 volts on the input exceeded the power dissipation
rating and caused it to fail. I plan on wiring up a more robust 3.3 volt
regulator in its place and trying again. It looks like I will be able to re
solder the shield back. The watertight integrity is gone for good. I think
I can find a plastic box I can mount it in so I can at least experiment
with it. I have sent a message to the seller detailing my findings. The
Micrel part lists a 20 volt maximum input voltage, so in theory at least,
this might have worked, and there might be some of these out there that
don't fail.

From djl at montana.com  Thu Feb 22 16:29:38 2018
From: djl at montana.com (djl)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 14:29:38 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2b606f0abf179b80b1792da2af81ef37@blackfoot.net>



  Chinese made, ... This
> part looks almost identical to the Trimble Microcentered antenna I 
> worked
> on recently.

Right. It's Chinese made. 'nuff said.

Don
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

-- 
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


From david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com  Thu Feb 22 16:29:58 2018
From: david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com (Van Horn, David)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:29:58 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the part has thermal shutdown.
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf

ESD hit maybe?

From tom.n5eg at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:33:26 2018
From: tom.n5eg at gmail.com (Tom McDermott)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 13:33:26 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
Message-ID: <CACO3nRTNdVBjE2cikQCn63DTc8bt+4MZNM_ZQ=pHYTfne-0-Fg@mail.gmail.com>

In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason is
that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
gold plating
will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small amount
of
solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the solder
joint,
and it will have a high probability of failure.

Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the percentage
of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.

-- Tom, N5EG




On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar <leo at leobodnar.com> wrote:

> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> might find useful.
>
> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise
> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>
> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to
> it.
>
> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
> published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/
> Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>
> In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most
> of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
>
> Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because
> all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed
> or not.
>
> Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> headache or two for unsuspecting.
>
> Leo
>
> > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
> > From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> >
> > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15
> per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other
> reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder
> paste properly covers the pads.
> >
> > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of
> boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to
> have the best gold finish.
> >
> > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+
> for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From omniryx at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 16:39:54 2018
From: omniryx at gmail.com (William H. Fite)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:39:54 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>

I wish people would lighten up on Chinese goods. Perhaps you are not aware
that China builds for and sells to both the DOD and NASA. Chinese
manufacturers build to the specs they are given. You want cheap crap,
they'll build cheap crap. You want top quality, they'll build top quality.


On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Van Horn, David <
david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the part
> has thermal shutdown.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf
>
> ESD hit maybe?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu

From david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com  Thu Feb 22 16:44:33 2018
From: david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com (Van Horn, David)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:44:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR04MB0920EAED20B62D618E692998E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>

I wasn't making any comment about Chinese goods, just the component in question.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces+david.vanhorn=backcountryaccess.com at febo.com] On Behalf Of William H. Fite
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:40 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.

I wish people would lighten up on Chinese goods. Perhaps you are not aware that China builds for and sells to both the DOD and NASA. Chinese manufacturers build to the specs they are given. You want cheap crap, they'll build cheap crap. You want top quality, they'll build top quality.


On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Van Horn, David < david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the 
> part has thermal shutdown.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf
>
> ESD hit maybe?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow 
> the instructions there.
>


--
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 22 16:48:42 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:48:42 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41B366BE-2DE5-49B3-BD9A-CF850D770260@n1k.org>

Hi

As mentioned in another post, the part does claim to have thermal limit
built in. They appear to pulse test them at 150 ma and 16V so there is
indeed *something* that would suggest operation at 12V would be ok. 
I’d guess that the thermal regulation spec applies up to 16V and past that
you are on your own…..

I’d take a look at the bypass caps on the regulator. Looking back at the 
original test data, it may have simply gone unstable at the higher voltage.
A 0.1 uf on the input and 0.47 uf on the output seem to be the minimums. 

Bob

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 2:48 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> For those who have been following the saga of the Chinese made, eBay
> purchased antenna that failed, I may have an answer as to why it failed.
> I had to destructively disassemble it. I just could not get it apart any
> other way. I used a Chinese version of a Dremel tool with a metal saw
> blade. After making a huge mess with plastic particles everywhere, it
> revealed a circular FR4 board with two patch antennas mounted, one atop the
> other. I assume the smaller one to be the L1, and the larger to be L2. This
> part looks almost identical to the Trimble Microcentered antenna I worked
> on recently. On the back side of this is a metal shield  about 3 by 3
> inches soldered to the circular FR4 board. I switched to a abrasive wheel
> and took off some of the solder holding the shield to the board. Then,
> using a small screw driver, I went around the shield breaking the solder
> loose. The shield off revealed that the coax goes to some capacitors that
> couple RF out and through an inductor with some capacitors to ground and
> finally to a SOT23-5 package labelled LK33. This appears to be a Micrel
> MIC5203 3.3 volt regulator. It is shorted on the input side. I believe that
> putting anything over 7.5 volts on the input exceeded the power dissipation
> rating and caused it to fail. I plan on wiring up a more robust 3.3 volt
> regulator in its place and trying again. It looks like I will be able to re
> solder the shield back. The watertight integrity is gone for good. I think
> I can find a plastic box I can mount it in so I can at least experiment
> with it. I have sent a message to the seller detailing my findings. The
> Micrel part lists a 20 volt maximum input voltage, so in theory at least,
> this might have worked, and there might be some of these out there that
> don't fail.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ewkehren at AOL.com  Thu Feb 22 17:25:34 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:25:34 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR04MB0920EAED20B62D618E692998E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.3.1519338353.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Some  of you are to young to remember when Javanese products were considered junk same storyBert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: "Van Horn, David" <david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> Date: 2/22/18  4:44 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna. 
I wasn't making any comment about Chinese goods, just the component in question.

-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces+david.vanhorn=backcountryaccess.com at febo.com] On Behalf Of William H. Fite
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2018 2:40 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.

I wish people would lighten up on Chinese goods. Perhaps you are not aware that China builds for and sells to both the DOD and NASA. Chinese manufacturers build to the specs they are given. You want cheap crap, they'll build cheap crap. You want top quality, they'll build top quality.


On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Van Horn, David < david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the 
> part has thermal shutdown.
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf
>
> ESD hit maybe?
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/ mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow 
> the instructions there.
>


--
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com  Thu Feb 22 17:37:55 2018
From: david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com (Van Horn, David)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:37:55 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <e0e50ae1-a735-44a6-b595-386a507a2e31@BN3NAM01FT028.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR04MB0920EAED20B62D618E692998E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <e0e50ae1-a735-44a6-b595-386a507a2e31@BN3NAM01FT028.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CY4PR04MB0920ED1F2766F85D961A513CE0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>


"Some  of you are to young to remember when Javanese products were considered junk same storyBert Kehren"

I've lived through Japan, Taiwan, and now China.  Who's next?  😊





From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 22 17:41:49 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:41:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR04MB0920ED1F2766F85D961A513CE0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR04MB0920EAED20B62D618E692998E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <e0e50ae1-a735-44a6-b595-386a507a2e31@BN3NAM01FT028.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920ED1F2766F85D961A513CE0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <8CF1A5F9-2655-433D-9481-39A75ED7F7B8@n1k.org>

India

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Van Horn, David <david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> "Some  of you are to young to remember when Javanese products were considered junk same storyBert Kehren"
> 
> I've lived through Japan, Taiwan, and now China.  Who's next?  😊
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 17:45:50 2018
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:45:50 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <8CF1A5F9-2655-433D-9481-39A75ED7F7B8@n1k.org>
References: <CY4PR04MB0920EAED20B62D618E692998E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <e0e50ae1-a735-44a6-b595-386a507a2e31@BN3NAM01FT028.eop-nam01.prod.protection.outlook.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920ED1F2766F85D961A513CE0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <8CF1A5F9-2655-433D-9481-39A75ED7F7B8@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzQi1B__qAJLGfZno1UgqjNUCcRWnDh2hRnGrv-K4W78RA@mail.gmail.com>

Then Africa.

On 22 Feb 2018 22:42, "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> India
>
> > On Feb 22, 2018, at 5:37 PM, Van Horn, David <david.vanhorn@
> backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > "Some  of you are to young to remember when Javanese products were
> considered junk same storyBert Kehren"
> >
> > I've lived through Japan, Taiwan, and now China.  Who's next?  😊
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From djl at montana.com  Thu Feb 22 17:48:19 2018
From: djl at montana.com (djl)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:48:19 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>

Fine. The Chinese have no concept of, or ignore, intellectual property 
rights. They will cheerfully use 13 year old girls to put together stuff 
using counterfeit parts and ripped circuits. There is little or no 
quality control. The problem is that these goods drive better goods out 
of the market.


On 2018-02-22 14:39, William H. Fite wrote:
> I wish people would lighten up on Chinese goods. Perhaps you are not 
> aware
> that China builds for and sells to both the DOD and NASA. Chinese
> manufacturers build to the specs they are given. You want cheap crap,
> they'll build cheap crap. You want top quality, they'll build top 
> quality.
> 
> 
> On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Van Horn, David <
> david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> 
>> According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the 
>> part
>> has thermal shutdown.
>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf
>> 
>> ESD hit maybe?
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 

-- 
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Thu Feb 22 18:14:41 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 15:14:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
Message-ID: <3F11EA5310D9455DAA126FECC7212214@pc52>

Let's keep this thread on topic and highly informative.

Please treat time nuts as a technical mailing list, not social media.

Thanks,
/tvb
Moderator, www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm


From omniryx at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 18:26:32 2018
From: omniryx at gmail.com (William H. Fite)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:26:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts]  Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>
Message-ID: <CANy2iXpLe6QbmbHvn6FNVN_3CG4MwKgtOpH5WicbacVrwLHqyg@mail.gmail.com>

Ignore intellectual property rights - yes
Abusive labor practices - yes (I'm a radlib, this bothers me enormously)
Counterfeit parts - sometimes

But...

Little or no quality control - not necessarily
Drive out better goods - only if buyers allow to happen

Because...

The reason that Chinese manufacturers make and sell cheap crap is because
resellers (I'm looking at you, Americans and Europeans) specify the lowest
possible prices so they can make the highest possible profits.

The Chinese economy is strongly supply-side oriented. Simply put, they
build to the market, with little government regulation. If you go to China
and negotiate for top quality designs, parts, manufacturing processes, and
quality controls, they will happily build you products that match similar
items that come from Rohde & Schwarz or other top-notch manufacturers. That
said, if you want cheap, they'll certainly give you cheap.

When we want someone to blame for garbage in the marketplace, a good place
to look is in the mirror. China is not in the charity business; they build
what people want to buy.



On Thursday, February 22, 2018, djl <djl at montana.com> wrote:

> Fine. The Chinese have no concept of, or ignore, intellectual property
> rights. They will cheerfully use 13 year old girls to put together stuff
> using counterfeit parts and ripped circuits. There is little or no quality
> control. The problem is that these goods drive better goods out of the
> market.
>
>
> On 2018-02-22 14:39, William H. Fite wrote:
>
>> I wish people would lighten up on Chinese goods. Perhaps you are not aware
>> that China builds for and sells to both the DOD and NASA. Chinese
>> manufacturers build to the specs they are given. You want cheap crap,
>> they'll build cheap crap. You want top quality, they'll build top quality.
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Van Horn, David <
>> david.vanhorn at backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>>
>> According to the data sheet, it looks pretty well in spec, and the part
>>> has thermal shutdown.
>>> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/mic5203.pdf
>>>
>>> ESD hit maybe?
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>>
> --
> Dr. Don Latham
> PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
> VOX: 406-626-4304
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu

From marklgoldberg at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 18:18:27 2018
From: marklgoldberg at gmail.com (Mark Goldberg)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 16:18:27 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <CACO3nRTNdVBjE2cikQCn63DTc8bt+4MZNM_ZQ=pHYTfne-0-Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <CACO3nRTNdVBjE2cikQCn63DTc8bt+4MZNM_ZQ=pHYTfne-0-Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKn+a3s=nu+kg0KOeHSQK4Ex8fNU=Eb87zXc+uJ8068oLEfz3Q@mail.gmail.com>

My reading of IPC J-STD-001F Paragraph 4.5 says that the gold embrittlement
issue does not apply to ENIG or ENEPIG. Paragraph 4.5.1 does say other gold
shall be removed so there won't be solder embrittlement.

Is that still correct?

The issue with ENIG and RF is interesting. I have not heard that before but
I can find lots of info on the subject. I do not remember seeing ENIG on
microstrip boards.

Regards,

Mark


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Tom McDermott <tom.n5eg at gmail.com> wrote:

> In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason is
> that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
> gold plating
> will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small amount
> of
> solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the solder
> joint,
> and it will have a high probability of failure.
>
> Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the
> percentage
> of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.
>
> -- Tom, N5EG
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar <leo at leobodnar.com> wrote:
>
> > Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> > might find useful.
> >
> > I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> > from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from
> otherwise
> > identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
> > therefore, covered with ENIG.
> >
> > Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
> to
> > it.
> >
> > I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
> > published data, some of which is presented here
> http://www.simberian.com/
> > Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> >
> > In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> > Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> > effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most
> > of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> > As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> > electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> > degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
> >
> > Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> > soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems
> because
> > all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it -
> exposed
> > or not.
> >
> > Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> > headache or two for unsuspecting.
> >
> > Leo
> >
> > > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
> > > From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> > >
> > > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15
> > per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other
> > reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your
> solder
> > paste properly covers the pads.
> > >
> > > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> > vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of
> > boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem
> to
> > have the best gold finish.
> > >
> > > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+
> > for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From omniryx at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 18:28:58 2018
From: omniryx at gmail.com (William H. Fite)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:28:58 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <3F11EA5310D9455DAA126FECC7212214@pc52>
References: <3F11EA5310D9455DAA126FECC7212214@pc52>
Message-ID: <CANy2iXrA8Woq1jY24k-9VbN5HK54W4LhUAKkDS_R-YaGYWgN7Q@mail.gmail.com>

With respect, Tom, discussion of quality issues is scarcely "social media."

But...it is your list so that's the last you'll hear from me on the topic.



On Thursday, February 22, 2018, Tom Van Baak <tvb at leapsecond.com> wrote:

> Let's keep this thread on topic and highly informative.
>
> Please treat time nuts as a technical mailing list, not social media.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
> Moderator, www.leapsecond.com/time-nuts.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu

From tom.n5eg at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 20:06:13 2018
From: tom.n5eg at gmail.com (Tom McDermott)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 17:06:13 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <CAKn+a3s=nu+kg0KOeHSQK4Ex8fNU=Eb87zXc+uJ8068oLEfz3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <CACO3nRTNdVBjE2cikQCn63DTc8bt+4MZNM_ZQ=pHYTfne-0-Fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKn+a3s=nu+kg0KOeHSQK4Ex8fNU=Eb87zXc+uJ8068oLEfz3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACO3nRRB7guZu2mKkskmDPssKoSR3BhmEe33QdjFJ9xj0PpP-g@mail.gmail.com>

It appears that ENIG gold is extremely thin (2 - 8 microinches),
and if so does not cause a solderability problem.

-- Tom, N5EG



On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:18 PM, Mark Goldberg <marklgoldberg at gmail.com>
wrote:

> My reading of IPC J-STD-001F Paragraph 4.5 says that the gold embrittlement
> issue does not apply to ENIG or ENEPIG. Paragraph 4.5.1 does say other gold
> shall be removed so there won't be solder embrittlement.
>
> Is that still correct?
>
> The issue with ENIG and RF is interesting. I have not heard that before but
> I can find lots of info on the subject. I do not remember seeing ENIG on
> microstrip boards.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Tom McDermott <tom.n5eg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > In general it's bad practice to gold plate SMT solder pads.  The reason
> is
> > that proper SMT soldering utilizes a very small amount of solder and the
> > gold plating
> > will partially dissolve into the molten solder. Because of the small
> amount
> > of
> > solder, the percentage of gold will be high enough to embrittle the
> solder
> > joint,
> > and it will have a high probability of failure.
> >
> > Hand soldering can apply a large enough amount of solder that the
> > percentage
> > of gold in the joint is relatively small and the problem is avoided.
> >
> > -- Tom, N5EG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar <leo at leobodnar.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
> > > might find useful.
> > >
> > > I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
> > > from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from
> > otherwise
> > > identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed
> and,
> > > therefore, covered with ENIG.
> > >
> > > Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
> > to
> > > it.
> > >
> > > I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research
> and
> > > published data, some of which is presented here
> > http://www.simberian.com/
> > > Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> > >
> > > In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> > > Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin
> > > effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases
> most
> > > of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> > > As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in
> > > electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime
> > > degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."
> > >
> > > Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before
> > > soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems
> > because
> > > all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it -
> > exposed
> > > or not.
> > >
> > > Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a
> > > headache or two for unsuspecting.
> > >
> > > Leo
> > >
> > > > Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
> > > > From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
> > > >
> > > > Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around
> $15
> > > per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no
> other
> > > reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your
> > solder
> > > paste properly covers the pads.
> > > >
> > > > And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can
> > > vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot
> of
> > > boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem
> > to
> > > have the best gold finish.
> > > >
> > > > Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted
> $250+
> > > for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> > ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Thu Feb 22 21:15:38 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 18:15:38 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
Message-ID: <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>

On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might find useful.
> 
> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, covered with ENIG.
> 
> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.
> 
> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> 

the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent 
discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.



From zl3ag at radioengineering.com  Thu Feb 22 21:40:24 2018
From: zl3ag at radioengineering.com (Andy ZL3AG)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:40:24 +1300
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u-ohQTHxtHHtHaOAapWZkB7pC2SWwh1a3n8kLgCy3eW4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u-ohQTHxtHHtHaOAapWZkB7pC2SWwh1a3n8kLgCy3eW4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A277CC62-8FC8-4522-8BAC-FCC5EFC55579@radioengineering.com>


http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/

See: HP5065asnlist (serial number list)

On 23/02/2018, at 3:44 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

> no reason other then .... curious
> 
> -pete
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Thu Feb 22 21:58:09 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>

Hi

The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping for very 
low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very slight 
degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might only
hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..

Bob

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 9:15 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
>> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might find useful.
>> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, covered with ENIG.
>> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.
>> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
> 
> the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From rnabioullin at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 22:42:33 2018
From: rnabioullin at gmail.com (Ruslan Nabioullin)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:42:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>
Message-ID: <CAHDZN8=8Qocy0f3-uv2U3rZCtQYOWbbiNQ9+OBc4DFYs_BBxnw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:48 PM, djl <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> Fine. The Chinese have no concept of, or ignore, intellectual property
> rights.

Which is not necessarily perverse---there exist people (most notably
those of the so-called Pirate Party movements worldwide) who deem the
legal theories of the copyright and the patent to be absurd.  That is
all that I will say, for I do not wish to excessively deviate from the
topic of discourse.

-Ruslan

-- 
Ruslan Nabioullin
Wittgenstein Laboratories
rnabioullin at gmail.com
(508) 523-8535
50 Louise Dr.
Hollis, NH 03049

From holrum at hotmail.com  Thu Feb 22 23:05:30 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 04:05:30 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather v6.0 Beta for Windows .EXE file
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024BA95529E298C9D40E226CECC0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I have had a LOT of requests for the Windows version of the latest version (v6.0 Beta) of Lady Heather for Windows.   Unfortunately aggressive blocking of .exe files by ISPs makes it very hard to email the .exe file (even password protected .zip files get blocked).  Also very few Windows users seem to be able to compile the code.

I've put a copy of the Windows .exe and documentation comments on EEVBLOG:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/msg1434005/#msg1434005

This is just the .exe  To use it you will need to have v5.0 installed and working (from ke5fx.com) and replace the v5.0 heather.exe file with this one (backup your old .exe first).

This version supports LOTs of new devices (including TruePosition, PRS10, X72, and SA22.c devices) and has a lot of new features.  Check the heather.txt file for the command line options for selecting your device type and the new features.

From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 00:05:42 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 22:05:42 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyVL0UqB7r+ctcwm=kwUzN8XiPvcYzybw2fD3Qq80k2QJQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Time-Nuts,

Pete Lancashire was wondering how many HP 5065As are out there.  I
don't know the exact number, but I know there are a lot.  I think
Corby (or someone) had a list of serial numbers at one time.

I will confess that I do have one - and love it.  It is a very old
unit that doesn't have any updates other than a few new electrolytics
and a finer adjustment on the C-field.

Attached is a plot of it for the last three days.  I have not touched
it in several months.  It is not in a particularly well controlled
temperature environment (the yellow line on the graph), and it moved
110ns in three days (4.23x10E-13 frequency error).  And most of the
noise on the purple line (5065A frequency) is due to the GPS reference
(NTBW50AA does not have a great antenna as indicated by the bottom GPS
line).

Skip Withrow
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From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 20:46:59 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:46:59 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese made eBay antenna breakdown.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tJvrYHN0kMe57=sxYs9ocTzNaW8=0K4JKvS_A+FxDXoAQ@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't mean to imply that all Chinese made products are garbage. But,
some of them are. And, has been said, that is because people want to pay
the absolute lowest prices for stuff. The company I recently retired from
has a long history with Chinese competition. We had a product that had but
one American competitor. We thought, foolishly, that being a low cost item
with a modest annual sales volume, he wouldn't have to worry about foreign
competition. We didn't take into account our main customer who would slit
your throat over a tenth of a cent. It wasn't long before we began seeing
competing products from China. At first, they either did what was cheapest
without regard for RF concerns, or they copied us exactly. However, in
recent years, I have seen Chinese products that show the result of some
real engineering talent. In some cases, they are better than ours. These
are parts that are molded in plastic, and the foreign competition certainly
knows a lot more about molding than we do. Their parts are cosmetically
superior to ours in almost every instance. Lately, I have suggested that we
obtain some of these products and copy them. That is what it has come to.
I noticed that the enable input is tied to the voltage input. I thought
that it may have seen too high a voltage, but the specs say it should be
able to take 20 volts. So, I don't really see any reason it should have
failed. I will put a new 3.3 volt regulator in and see if I can get it to
work. I want to do comparisons to other antennas. The rest of the circuitry
looks OK to me.
There is one SAW bandpass filter per band. Not like the Trimble, but should
work fine for my purposes.

From k8yumdoober at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 22:27:02 2018
From: k8yumdoober at gmail.com (Dana Whitlow)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:27:02 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CADHrwpc-pryWMahrYhN1JH_C9VGnVgKswxnpBvzrxKFOJ4q6Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Keep in mind that soldermask will also change the field distributions
around a
microstrip line, and will somewhat mitigate the microstrip's dispersive
behavior
as well.

I once worked with some miccrostrip couplers at around 2-4 GHz and found
that
directivity was significantly improved by adding two layers of thin kapton
tape
on top of the coupled region, a solution that went into production.  I
expect that
the usual soldermask layer would have about the same effect.

Dana


On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 8:15 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:

> On 2/22/18 12:29 PM, Leo Bodnar wrote:
>
>> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some
>> might find useful.
>>
>> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results
>> from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise
>> identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and,
>> therefore, covered with ENIG.
>>
>> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides
>> to it.
>>
>> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and
>> published data, some of which is presented here
>> http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizatio
>> nPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>>
>>
> the ever useful http://www.microwaves101.com/ site has an excellent
> discussion of this under the "skin effect" heading.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk  Fri Feb 23 04:49:47 2018
From: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk (David J Taylor)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 09:49:47 -0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather v6.0 Beta for Windows .EXE file
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR11MB1024BA95529E298C9D40E226CECC0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024BA95529E298C9D40E226CECC0@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <95CE9C8FEB544725AD6858578DE00746@Alta>

From: Mark Sims

[]
I've put a copy of the Windows .exe and documentation comments on EEVBLOG:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/msg1434005/#msg1434005
[]
============================================

Thanks!

David
-- 
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-taylor at blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 


From wa2lbi at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 05:31:05 2018
From: wa2lbi at gmail.com (wa2lbi at gmail.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 05:31:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather v6.0 Beta for Windows .EXE file
Message-ID: <bequvvacn47vkcjcnfidjf10.1519381501047@email.lge.com>

I have gotten around the EXE mailing problem by changing the file extension.  You could use EXX, for example, before attaching it to the email.  When the file is received, the recipient just saves the file with an EXE extension.
I recommend running your antivirus program's file scanner on the received file before using it.

KenWA2LBILG G6

------ Original message------From: Mark SimsDate: Thu, Feb 22, 2018 23:05To: time-nuts at febo.com;Cc: Subject:[time-nuts] Lady Heather v6.0 Beta for Windows .EXE file
I have had a LOT of requests for the Windows version of the latest version (v6.0 Beta) of Lady Heather for Windows.   Unfortunately aggressive blocking of .exe files by ISPs makes it very hard to email the .exe file (even password protected .zip files get blocked).  Also very few Windows users seem to be able to compile the code.

I've put a copy of the Windows .exe and documentation comments on EEVBLOG:
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/msg1434005/#msg1434005

This is just the .exe  To use it you will need to have v5.0 installed and working (from ke5fx.com) and replace the v5.0 heather.exe file with this one (backup your old .exe first).

This version supports LOTs of new devices (including TruePosition, PRS10, X72, and SA22.c devices) and has a lot of new features.  Check the heather.txt file for the command line options for selecting your device type and the new features.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 23 10:43:00 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 10:43:00 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Chinese made eBay antenna breakdown.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tJvrYHN0kMe57=sxYs9ocTzNaW8=0K4JKvS_A+FxDXoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tJvrYHN0kMe57=sxYs9ocTzNaW8=0K4JKvS_A+FxDXoAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <352749C8-3E89-492A-B6D0-3C3D29014A4A@n1k.org>

HI

> On Feb 22, 2018, at 8:46 PM, John Green <wpxs472 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I didn't mean to imply that all Chinese made products are garbage. But,
> some of them are. And, has been said, that is because people want to pay
> the absolute lowest prices for stuff. The company I recently retired from
> has a long history with Chinese competition. We had a product that had but
> one American competitor. We thought, foolishly, that being a low cost item
> with a modest annual sales volume, he wouldn't have to worry about foreign
> competition. We didn't take into account our main customer who would slit
> your throat over a tenth of a cent. It wasn't long before we began seeing
> competing products from China. At first, they either did what was cheapest
> without regard for RF concerns, or they copied us exactly. However, in
> recent years, I have seen Chinese products that show the result of some
> real engineering talent. In some cases, they are better than ours. These
> are parts that are molded in plastic, and the foreign competition certainly
> knows a lot more about molding than we do. Their parts are cosmetically
> superior to ours in almost every instance. Lately, I have suggested that we
> obtain some of these products and copy them. That is what it has come to.
> I noticed that the enable input is tied to the voltage input. I thought
> that it may have seen too high a voltage, but the specs say it should be
> able to take 20 volts.

Enable tied to Vin is pretty much “the way it’s done” with a lot of linear 
voltage regulators. I have never seen a failure traced back to an enable 
over-voltage. 

I *do* believe that the bypass caps could be the problem. I’ve seen it before.
Tired Old Bob grabs the reel of 0.047uf devices rather than the 0.47 parts
when he loads the pick and place …. It happens all over the world. 


> So, I don't really see any reason it should have
> failed. I will put a new 3.3 volt regulator in and see if I can get it to
> work. I want to do comparisons to other antennas. The rest of the circuitry
> looks OK to me.

You might try feeding it a regulated 3.3V and see if the beast works or not. 

Bob


> There is one SAW bandpass filter per band. Not like the Trimble, but should
> work fine for my purposes.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ke9h.graham at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 12:42:27 2018
From: ke9h.graham at gmail.com (Graham / KE9H)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 11:42:27 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Teardown of Chinese made eBay GPS antenna.
In-Reply-To: <CAHDZN8=8Qocy0f3-uv2U3rZCtQYOWbbiNQ9+OBc4DFYs_BBxnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8t+SOH62xdV5Of3ZsdTARk1LHMWe=b=v0=wXS7r79p5-hw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR04MB0920F870C3792D6BCCA27630E0CD0@CY4PR04MB0920.namprd04.prod.outlook.com>
 <CANy2iXrrk5GVk4tG3iKTu4ehMbQT_Qf3+y_JnN2anRRnBczKUw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e28f3acc30061a030fd6b6455f73f457@blackfoot.net>
 <CAHDZN8=8Qocy0f3-uv2U3rZCtQYOWbbiNQ9+OBc4DFYs_BBxnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPyJ-YVVOLxLP_DExfFgiFTbEWYRJKi5CoBeFqqVr4pVUbbGRg@mail.gmail.com>

 > The Chinese have no concept of, or ignore, intellectual property rights.

Do not forget that China is a communist government and culture..
And has been since about 1948.
So no one left who was raised under a different system of government.
Under communism, every thing is owned by "the people."
If people can't individually own land or property, how could they possibly
own something like an idea?
It is a fundamentally incomprehensible concept.
So they don't think they are doing something wrong when use someone else's
idea, or software, or design.

But they have figured out that their foreign customers get all upset when
they do re-use their ideas and designs.

So the government is making "adjustments" so that they can fit in with the
rest of the world, but only recently.

Enough off-topic, sorry.

--- Graham

==

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Ruslan Nabioullin <rnabioullin at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:48 PM, djl <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> > Fine. The Chinese have no concept of, or ignore, intellectual property
> > rights.
>
> Which is not necessarily perverse---there exist people (most notably
> those of the so-called Pirate Party movements worldwide) who deem the
> legal theories of the copyright and the patent to be absurd.  That is
> all that I will say, for I do not wish to excessively deviate from the
> topic of discourse.
>
> -Ruslan
>
> --
> Ruslan Nabioullin
> Wittgenstein Laboratories
> rnabioullin at gmail.com
> (508) 523-8535
> 50 Louise Dr.
> Hollis, NH 03049
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From Greg.Dowd at microsemi.com  Fri Feb 23 13:58:42 2018
From: Greg.Dowd at microsemi.com (Greg Dowd)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 18:58:42 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum TymServ2000 manual
Message-ID: <c2fc5a8889c942549f64fc5dc155a008@microsemi.com>

Amazingly, I did manage to find an old CD that had the manual files and was able to convert the WordPerfect using LibreOffice.  Here you go.

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From w1ksz at outlook.com  Fri Feb 23 12:49:26 2018
From: w1ksz at outlook.com (Richard Solomon)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:49:26 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAhLdYG5AfWqVxmD5ZBrOpk8rwurWYq5koW0QV3yXyZR9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cba12048-0cd1-e03d-140c-9f562245b890@sphere.bc.ca>
 <53f979d0bac7a7347473ef9ed11c33ec@blackfoot.net>,
 <CAD2JfAhLdYG5AfWqVxmD5ZBrOpk8rwurWYq5koW0QV3yXyZR9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SN1PR14MB0272E729093710C31AEC2BE7F8CC0@SN1PR14MB0272.namprd14.prod.outlook.com>

I received mine yesterday, fired it up today and the Red Fault light lit up. I expected that.


I checked the Power, +5 and +15 looked OK.

Nothing out of either 100 MHz spigots. I hooked up the 10 MHz Input to my GPSDO and

still nothing out either 100 MHz spigot. Also checked with the Int/Ext switch in both

positions.


At this point, I have done all I can do. Until someone smarter than me finds something, up

on the shelf it goes.


BTW, they did put a lot of screws on the cover !!


Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ


Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook>
________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2018 9:16:32 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Looking for some Frequency Electronics info....

Walter pure speculation.
Maybe the 100 MHz is superposed to be locked to the 10 MHz.
With a scope see what the drift rates are between the two.
Adjust EFC slowly to get the 100 MHz to go below the 10 MHZ if its running
fast.
See if the light changes to green.
If it does you know that the system is supposed to be locked and they
aren't.
Most semi good systems systems do not allow outputs if there is a fault.
But you know that already.
Pure guess.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 7:08 PM, djl <djl at montana.com> wrote:

> start with the power supplies, and go on until morning...
> Don
>
>
> On 2018-02-19 16:57, walter shawlee 2 wrote:
>
>> I recently got a strange little 1U FEI rack mounted unit called an
>> FE-7923F-100-1,
>> which appears to have rear 10MHz and dual 100Mhz outputs. it is called
>> a Frequency Reference Unit.
>>
>> sadly, my unit has a fault light, and no outputs. All the internal
>> supplies look good, and there is an FE-83AA (10.0Mhz) and FE-1020-100
>> (100Mhz) OCXO inside.  both of these work (when measured at the
>> oscillators), and seem to have meaningful control including EFC, and I
>> tracked down the adjustments in a sea of what seem to be prototype
>> boards next to the oscillators. so, I have two good sources,
>> adjustable, but still no outputs.
>> the OCXO signals disappear into a set of boards with no useful
>> markings as to function, and look mainly digital.
>>
>> the 100Mhz unit has only about 200mV p-p output, which seems low to
>> me, the other has lots of signal. I cannot find any data on either
>> unit on line or at the FEI website, so any data that is out there
>> would be very welcome, so I can be sure they at least are running
>> correctly.
>>
>> I am hoping to use this rack as a source of RF reference signals in
>> other gear, but clearly I will have to either gut the rest of the
>> circuitry and add some new buffers, or figure out the rats nest of
>> hand wiring to determine why it's not working.  any help in that area
>> hugely appreciated, and I can send pics to anybody interested to know
>> more about the internals.
>>
>> the rear apron has AC power in, a 10MHz output SMA, a switch next to
>> it that says INT/EXT REF. (set to INT), but no way to attach an
>> external ref.  then there's a D-Sub filtered connector, that runs to
>> the stacked digital boards, but its purpose is unknown as I cannot see
>> where the connections go.  there are also two 100Mhz SMA outputs, but
>> all outputs are dead, with no signal, and the front ONLINE green LED
>> is dark, and the red FAULT LED is lit. the oscillators do not run to
>> the rear jacks but disappear into three pcbs.
>>
>> hoping for some FEI data if anybody has some to share.
>> all the best,
>> walter
>>
>> --
>> Walter Shawlee 2, President
>> Sphere Research Corporation
>> 3394 Sunnyside Rd.,  West Kelowna,  BC
>> V1Z 2V4  CANADA  Phone: (250) 769-1834
>> walter2 at sphere.bc.ca
>> WS2: We're all in one boat, no matter how it looks to you.
>> Love is all you need. (John Lennon)
>> But, that doesn't mean other things don't come in handy. (WS2)
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> --
> Dr. Don Latham
> PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
> VOX: 406-626-4304
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 15:52:37 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 13:52:37 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Naked FEI FE-5650A
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyUAanGC-chdXxAO5c+PzinC0sp1y2G5nN7Jm+LzWi35Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Well, Corby may have started something.

I had the pieces to a Frequency Electronics FE-5650A lying around in a
bag, so figured I would share as well.

There are two photos.  The first is an exploded view with the lamp
(not dis-assembled) at the left.  In the center is the microwave
cavity with the filter and resonance cell (heat shrunk together) and
the magnetic shield that goes over the whole assembly.  At the right
is the cover that goes over the cavity with the C-field coil inside.

The second photo is the end view of the lamp assembly and the Rb cells
turned on end.  They are miniature (about 1/2" diameter) compared to
the HP 5065A.

Skip Withrow
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From attila at kinali.ch  Fri Feb 23 16:23:31 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 22:23:31 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
 <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>

Hoi Bob,

On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping for very 
> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very slight 
> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might only
> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..

Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 23 16:33:57 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 16:33:57 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
 <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
 <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <FA721E63-D208-4AE1-A3EA-D93DC5B07056@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> Hoi Bob,
> 
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> 
>> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping for very 
>> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very slight 
>> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might only
>> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
> 
> Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?

UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … I 
assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)

Bob


> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From warren at kumari.net  Fri Feb 23 17:09:42 2018
From: warren at kumari.net (Warren Kumari)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 17:09:42 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iJpfwUHf6G+4b9+U7acE3DQOVKbfrPrHmQpv10PVm_u1A@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 3:29 PM, Leo Bodnar <leo at leobodnar.com> wrote:
> Here is ENIG fact that is not widely known at the moment but which some might find useful.
>
> I could not understand why I get better TDR and insertion loss results from solder-mask covered microstrip transmission lines than from otherwise identical microstrips on the same substrate with soldermask removed and, therefore, covered with ENIG.
>
> Gold can't be bad, right? As it turns out, even gold coin has two sides to it.
>
> I have found that Shlepnev and McMorrow conducted extensive research and published data, some of which is presented here http://www.simberian.com/Presentations/NickelCharacterizationPresentation_emc2011.pdf
>
> In essence, it's not the "G" that is the problem - it is the "N".
> Immersion Gold layer is not thick enough to contain whole of the skin effect layer (even towards 100GHz) and as signal frequency increases most of the signal ends up travelling through Nickel.
> As Shlepnev commented "Nickel is the most mysterious metal in electronics."  It has significant effect on insertion loss and risetime degradation.  "Significant effect" is posh for "bad."

It might be the most mysterious, but Zinc gets my vote for "most
annoying". See:
https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/reference/tech_papers/2004-Brusse-Zn-whisker-IT-Pro.pdf

I once worked in a datacenter which had such a bad case of zinc
whiskers that, when we got bored, we'd turn off the lights and watch
the pretty blue arcs as the whiskers would get pulled through power
supplies, bridge something which could deliver current and vaporize,
making a small snapping noise in the process. The scary part was that
you could bang on the side of a crac, wait 30 seconds, and be rewarded
with a fireworks show...

W

>
> Some mass PCB manufacturers have been known to apply ENIG before soldermasking.  This causes even more high speed/frequency problems because all of the copper on the outside layers will have Nickel over it - exposed or not.
>
> Probably not a problem for majority of ENIG users but could cause a headache or two for unsuspecting.
>
> Leo
>
>> Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 19:02:25 +0000
>> From: Mark Sims <holrum at hotmail.com>
>>
>> Yes, have the board done with ENIG gold.  It typically adds around $15 per run of boards.  I do all my boards with ENIG gold... if for no other reason than the gold color makes it very easy to determine when your solder paste properly covers the pads.
>>
>> And, as Charles mentioned,  the quality and thickness of the gold can vary depending upon the board house.  I have used gojgo.com for a lot of boards.  They do very good, quick work,  are well priced, and they seem to have the best gold finish.
>>
>> Hard gold finish is VERY expensive these days.  I've been quoted $250+ for setup charges and per-board costs of over $25.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.



-- 
I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
idea in the first place.
This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
of pants.
   ---maf

From jimlux at earthlink.net  Fri Feb 23 18:17:56 2018
From: jimlux at earthlink.net (jimlux)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 15:17:56 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <FA721E63-D208-4AE1-A3EA-D93DC5B07056@n1k.org>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
 <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
 <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>
 <FA721E63-D208-4AE1-A3EA-D93DC5B07056@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <69ec18cd-a732-557d-33f7-0e2af2795ac2@earthlink.net>

On 2/23/18 1:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
>> On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>>
>> Hoi Bob,
>>
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
>> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>
>>> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping for very
>>> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very slight
>>> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might only
>>> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
>>
>> Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?
> 
> UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … I
> assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)
> 


Passive intermodulation distortion? What is the physics... hysteresis 
curves in the magnetization of the nickel is what I would suspect.


From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 23 19:08:31 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:08:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <69ec18cd-a732-557d-33f7-0e2af2795ac2@earthlink.net>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
 <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
 <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>
 <FA721E63-D208-4AE1-A3EA-D93DC5B07056@n1k.org>
 <69ec18cd-a732-557d-33f7-0e2af2795ac2@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <2A6C14A0-823A-4177-AEFD-BED8BCEA887E@n1k.org>

Hi

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 6:17 PM, jimlux <jimlux at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> On 2/23/18 1:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>>> On Feb 23, 2018, at 4:23 PM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hoi Bob,
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 21:58:09 -0500
>>> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The same nickel plating effect gets into a lot of things. If you are shopping for very
>>>> low IMD connectors, nickel plating is out. Things get non-linear (to a very slight
>>>> degree) when it is present. If -180 db is the goal for those spurs, you might only
>>>> hit -120 db with the nickel connectors …..
>>> 
>>> Interesting. About what frequency range are you talking?
>> UHF up into microwaves. It was part of a lecture back when I was in school … I
>> assume the basic physics hasn’t changed since then :)
> 
> 
> Passive intermodulation distortion? What is the physics... hysteresis curves in the magnetization of the nickel is what I would suspect.
> 

It turns out that the nickel’s really awful magnetic properties at RF get it into all sorts
of problems. More or less, the issue is the non-linear field response in the vicinity
of the nickel. You go from “reasonable skin depth” to “don’t go there” in zero distance
when you hit the nickel plating. Past that it gets a bit complicated and it was a very long
time ago ….

Bob



> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Fri Feb 23 19:15:03 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 00:15:03 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <2A6C14A0-823A-4177-AEFD-BED8BCEA887E@n1k.org>
References: <mailman.357.1519326249.24945.time-nuts@febo.com>
 <6E05CD79-7745-4597-9637-0D370C6A540D@leobodnar.com>
 <8956a3f7-f2e3-170b-a9e0-2bebab74074f@earthlink.net>
 <3455A720-10F1-40E0-BEC5-657908886BB3@n1k.org>
 <20180223222331.0934a1196ef9f8e9b37be615@kinali.ch>
 <FA721E63-D208-4AE1-A3EA-D93DC5B07056@n1k.org>
 <69ec18cd-a732-557d-33f7-0e2af2795ac2@earthlink.net>
 <2A6C14A0-823A-4177-AEFD-BED8BCEA887E@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <64275.1519431303@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <2A6C14A0-823A-4177-AEFD-BED8BCEA887E at n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>It turns out that the nickel’s really awful magnetic properties at RF [...]

The semiconductor industry has serious problems with electromigration of
very tiny copper conductors.

A large company in the business spent an awful lot of money failing
to get Cobalt to work, before somebody said "But wait, isn't that
one of the magnetic elements ?"

It now seems to become Wolfram instead.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From sandeenpa at yahoo.com  Fri Feb 23 20:28:00 2018
From: sandeenpa at yahoo.com (Perry Sandeen)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 01:28:00 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
References: <214211771.5028553.1519435680295.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <214211771.5028553.1519435680295@mail.yahoo.com>


List,
I've been following the ongoing mod process for the HP 5065A super on the list.
Two questions:
1. Are any of these upgrades applicable to the Lucnet and other Rb units?
2. Are there any other Rb units available (that don't cost you your first born child IF they can be found) that could be fine tuned as Corby is doing?
Regards,
Perrier

From holrum at hotmail.com  Fri Feb 23 21:12:33 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 02:12:33 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Lady Heather v6.0 supported devices
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024B66B26B854FA40E3148ACEC30@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I have received several requests for a list of devices currently supported by the v6.0 Beta of Lady Heather:

     GPS Receivers:
        Jupiter-T  (aka Zodiac)
        Furuno GT-8031 ($PFEC commands ... not yet tested)
        GPSD interface (mainly a Linux thing - provides a shared read-only
                   interface to numerous GPS devices)
        Motorola binary 
        NMEA
        Sirf binary
        NVS binary (115200:8:N:1)
        Trimble TSIP binary receivers
        Trimble TAIP receivers
        Trimble SV6/SV8/ACE-III
        Trimble Accutime / Palisade receivers
        Ublox UBX binary 
        Venus mixed binary / NMEA

     GPSDO's (GPS disciplined oscillators):
        Brandywine GPS-4 GPSDO
        DATUM STARLOC II GPSDO - inferior wannabe Thunderbolt - buggy firmware
        Jackson Labs LTE Lite
        Lucent RFTG-m GPSDO
        Lucent KS24361 REF0/Z3811A  Z3812A
        NEC GPSDO ... STAR-4 compatible at 115,200 baud
        UCCM - Trimble / Symmetricom GPSDOs
        Oscilloquartz STAR-4 GPSDO (management interface)
        Oscilloquartz OSA-453x GPSDO
        SCPI - Nortel telecom GPSDOs like NTWB and NTPX in SCPI mode
        SCPI (Z3801A/Z3815/Z3816/etc style)
        SCPI (HP5xxxx style)
        TruePosition GPS
        Trimble TSIP binary GPSDOs (like the Thunderbolt and numerous 
          "telecom" GPSDOs.
        Zyfer Nanosync 380 (19200:8:N:1)

    Atomic frequency references:
       HP 5071A cesium beam oscillator
       Spectratime/Temex LPFRS rubidium 
       Spectratime SRO100/SRO70 rubidium 
       SRS PRS-10 rubidium oscillator
       Symmetricom SA22 rubidium (60 Mhz and 58.9824 MHz ref freq)
       Symmetricom X72 rubidium
       Symmetricom X99 rubidium

    Clocks:
       Acron Zeit WWVB receiver
       Gravity/solid earth tide clock (uses system clock to display 
          solid earth tides and gravity offset,  Requires manual entry
          of latitude/longitude/altitude)
       No receiver, uses system clock. 

    Time and frequency counters:
       Generic frequency/time interval counters
       HP531xx counters
       PICPET simple timestamping interval counter chip
       TAPR TICC time interval counter

    Misc:
       Simple terminal emulator


From cdelect at juno.com  Fri Feb 23 21:23:35 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 18:23:35 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
Message-ID: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>

Hi,

My current Tally of  "Known" HP 5065A is 120 units!

Cheers,

Corby


From cdelect at juno.com  Fri Feb 23 21:29:07 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 18:29:07 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
Message-ID: <AABPKBVUPADBFGES@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>

Perrier,

The telecom Rubidiums don't leave much meat on the bone for improvements
as they sacrificed pretty much everything else to be cheap, small, and
low power consumption.

Most of these tradeoffs work directly against trying to get better short
term stability out of them.

Bummer.

Cheers,

Corby


From pete at petelancashire.com  Fri Feb 23 22:25:04 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 19:25:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, don't know why but more than I expected. I no longer do, but if the
person who I gave it to wants and is on TN can.

-pet

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:23 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> My current Tally of  "Known" HP 5065A is 120 units!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From artgodwin at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 22:28:09 2018
From: artgodwin at gmail.com (Adrian Godwin)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 03:28:09 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Sigtec GPS receiver
Message-ID: <CALiMYrtdQSw-6JEMS1SgNje_MdavQKTOr9gSp5vE8emHGczEVw@mail.gmail.com>

I've come across an old (2003) GPS receiver made by the Australian company
Sigtec Navigation. Although this is old, it has some interest because it's
a relatively open design and has been used as the basis for various open
source and experimental receivers.

It does seem to work (I'm getting NMEA out of it and it just jumped from an
old location to one very close to me) but I haven't been able to find any
manufacturer information on it - just lots of references to it being used
with different firmware.

The company themselves have apparently gone bust.

Does anyone have any more details ?

-adrian

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Fri Feb 23 22:34:40 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 22:34:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>

Hi

Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be willing to “accept”
one :)

Bob

> On Feb 23, 2018, at 10:25 PM, Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> Wow, don't know why but more than I expected. I no longer do, but if the
> person who I gave it to wants and is on TN can.
> 
> -pet
> 
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 6:23 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> My current Tally of  "Known" HP 5065A is 120 units!
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Corby
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Fri Feb 23 23:19:47 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 21:19:47 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Datum TymServe TS2000 Manual now available
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyWX6GUOBbBXLFhhdmMDr1FDqQN7vEi_SWL0e1xX+2pdCQ@mail.gmail.com>

 Hello Time-Nuts,

Greg Dowd, one of the original engineers on the Datum TS2000 (and
still with Symmetricom/MicroSemi), really came through!  He found a CD
with the TS2000 manual, and converted the Word Perfect file to a PDF.
With his permission, I have uploaded the file to the KO4BB web site
(it should currently be in the recent uploads section).

It has now become obvious why I was having difficulty finding the
serial commands to set up the unit, because there are none.  The front
panel menu is the only way to set the unit up.  The only thing the
serial port is used for is to output an ASCII string of the time once
per second (that can be turned on and off).

Regards,
Skip Withrow

From john at miles.io  Sat Feb 24 05:02:39 2018
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 02:02:39 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <006401d3ad56$9af163a0$d0d42ae0$@miles.io>

> Hi
> 
> Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be willing to
> “accept”
> one :)
> 
> Bob

Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on the oven controller board.  The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms cold, but is closer to a dead short.  It will take a LOT of work to restore to working condition. 

The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse ( http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ).  Needless to say the lamp PCB looks like something out of Fukushima.  It'll need to be rebuilt from scratch after rewinding the heater.

Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the caps on A11, don't let this happen to you.  They aren't making any more of these puppies.  If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/.  No need for exotic parts, just put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.  

Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing as well.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC



From robertg8rpi at virginmedia.com  Sat Feb 24 05:46:26 2018
From: robertg8rpi at virginmedia.com (George Atkinson)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 10:46:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <006401d3ad56$9af163a0$d0d42ae0$@miles.io>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>
 <006401d3ad56$9af163a0$d0d42ae0$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <295985784.235711.1519469186422@mail2.virginmedia.com>

There is one on UK ebay at the moment but its not being given away. From the one partial photograph it looks a bit rough.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-5065A-Rubidium-Frequency-Standard/183057846558?

Robert G8RPI.

> 
>     On 24 February 2018 at 10:02 John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:
> 
>         > > 
> >         Hi
> > 
> >         Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be willing to
> >         “accept”
> >         one :)
> > 
> >         Bob
> > 
> >     > 
>     Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on the oven controller board. The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms cold, but is closer to a dead short. It will take a LOT of work to restore to working condition.
> 
>     The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse ( http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ). Needless to say the lamp PCB looks like something out of Fukushima. It'll need to be rebuilt from scratch after rewinding the heater.
> 
>     Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the caps on A11, don't let this happen to you. They aren't making any more of these puppies. If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/. No need for exotic parts, just put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.
> 
>     Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing as well.
> 
>     -- john, KE5FX
>     Miles Design LLC
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>     To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>     and follow the instructions there.
> 

From ewkehren at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 06:07:26 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 06:07:26 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A super
In-Reply-To: <214211771.5028553.1519435680295@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <214211771.5028553.1519435680295@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <161c77f034f-155c-625@webjas-vab031.srv.aolmail.net>

FRK is possible candidate we are looking at it add filter, reduce time constant Corby did but forgot to reduce filter  time constant. 5065A is 0.05 seconds. 

We have to many projects low on the list Juerg is right now doing the new A9 for Corby
If any body wants to seriously get involved contact me off list
Bert Kehren
 
In a message dated 2/23/2018 8:28:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, time-nuts at febo.com writes:

 
ant
List,
I've been following the ongoing mod process for the HP 5065A super on the list.
Two questions:
1. Are any of these upgrades applicable to the Lucnet and other Rb units?
2. Are there any other Rb units available (that don't cost you your first born child IF they can be found) that could be fine tuned as Corby is doing?
Regards,
Perrier
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From cjaysharp at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 06:12:22 2018
From: cjaysharp at gmail.com (Clint Jay)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 11:12:22 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <295985784.235711.1519469186422@mail2.virginmedia.com>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>
 <006401d3ad56$9af163a0$d0d42ae0$@miles.io>
 <295985784.235711.1519469186422@mail2.virginmedia.com>
Message-ID: <CAN7ULzRvzd3dqzSAnc4uuadB2k0Z--zwMgF19gXydE8wprc+KQ@mail.gmail.com>

It looks rough, there's a cesium standard for sale in the UK, time nuts
member perhaps, that's sat at a quarter of the price, I know which I'd buy.

On 24 Feb 2018 10:46, "George Atkinson via time-nuts" <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> There is one on UK ebay at the moment but its not being given away. From
> the one partial photograph it looks a bit rough.
>
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-5065A-Rubidium-Frequency-
> Standard/183057846558?
>
> Robert G8RPI.
>
> >
> >     On 24 February 2018 at 10:02 John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:
> >
> >         > >
> > >         Hi
> > >
> > >         Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be
> willing to
> > >         “accept”
> > >         one :)
> > >
> > >         Bob
> > >
> > >     >
> >     Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a
> 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on
> the oven controller board. The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms
> cold, but is closer to a dead short. It will take a LOT of work to restore
> to working condition.
> >
> >     The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W
> resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse (
> http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ). Needless to say the lamp PCB
> looks like something out of Fukushima. It'll need to be rebuilt from
> scratch after rewinding the heater.
> >
> >     Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the
> caps on A11, don't let this happen to you. They aren't making any more of
> these puppies. If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to
> check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at
> http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/. No need for exotic parts, just
> put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.
> >
> >     Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing
> as well.
> >
> >     -- john, KE5FX
> >     Miles Design LLC
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> >     To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> >     and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb 24 09:30:25 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:30:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <295985784.235711.1519469186422@mail2.virginmedia.com>
References: <AABPKBVHUANHB3PA@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>
 <CAA-F0u8BXOzGkcv0OxV_pdDham-FQpcedJm-kGoW-e-PSiGAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <B4AB3091-335B-4D3E-8D0E-10162B260A8F@n1k.org>
 <006401d3ad56$9af163a0$d0d42ae0$@miles.io>
 <295985784.235711.1519469186422@mail2.virginmedia.com>
Message-ID: <62F38492-0E54-4896-83C8-59DC9715BC49@n1k.org>

Hi

The “pickup only” part of the deal would be a bit of an issue for some of us :)

Bob

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 5:46 AM, George Atkinson via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> There is one on UK ebay at the moment but its not being given away. From the one partial photograph it looks a bit rough.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-5065A-Rubidium-Frequency-Standard/183057846558?
> 
> Robert G8RPI.
> 
>> 
>>    On 24 February 2018 at 10:02 John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:
>> 
>>>> 
>>>        Hi
>>> 
>>>        Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be willing to
>>>        “accept”
>>>        one :)
>>> 
>>>        Bob
>>> 
>>>> 
>>    Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on the oven controller board. The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms cold, but is closer to a dead short. It will take a LOT of work to restore to working condition.
>> 
>>    The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse ( http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ). Needless to say the lamp PCB looks like something out of Fukushima. It'll need to be rebuilt from scratch after rewinding the heater.
>> 
>>    Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the caps on A11, don't let this happen to you. They aren't making any more of these puppies. If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/. No need for exotic parts, just put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.
>> 
>>    Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing as well.
>> 
>>    -- john, KE5FX
>>    Miles Design LLC
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>    To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>    and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sat Feb 24 09:49:44 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:49:44 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A
In-Reply-To: <62F38492-0E54-4896-83C8-59DC9715BC49@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <mailman.4.1519483800.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Old color and a little expensive only one partial pictureBert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> Date: 2/24/18  9:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: George Atkinson <robertg8rpi at virginmedia.com>, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Curious, how many t-nuts have 5065A 
Hi

The “pickup only” part of the deal would be a bit of an issue for some of us :)

Bob

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 5:46 AM, George Atkinson via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:
> 
> There is one on UK ebay at the moment but its not being given away. From the one partial photograph it looks a bit rough.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HP-5065A-Rubidium-Frequency-Standard/183057846558?
> 
> Robert G8RPI.
> 
>> 
>>    On 24 February 2018 at 10:02 John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:
>> 
>>>> 
>>>        Hi
>>> 
>>>        Well, if anybody else is “giving away” 5065’s I’d certainly be willing to
>>>        “accept”
>>>        one :)
>>> 
>>>        Bob
>>> 
>>>> 
>>    Be careful what you wish for. :) The unit Pete is talking about is a 1969-era model, in nice overall shape but with the usual bad capacitors on the oven controller board. The lamp oven winding should be about 50 ohms cold, but is closer to a dead short. It will take a LOT of work to restore to working condition.
>> 
>>    The failed controller ran long enough to smoke a 1.5-ohm 1W resistor, 1N400-something diode, and eventually the 1A line fuse ( http://www.ke5fx.com/5065A_A11_sm.jpg ). Needless to say the lamp PCB looks like something out of Fukushima. It'll need to be rebuilt from scratch after rewinding the heater.
>> 
>>    Seriously -- anyone with a 5065A who hasn't checked/replaced the caps on A11, don't let this happen to you. They aren't making any more of these puppies. If the caps on that board are original, don't bother to check them, just replace them, as Luciano suggests at http://www.timeok.it/hp5065a-corner-3/. No need for exotic parts, just put in whatever you have that is somewhere close to the original values.
>> 
>>    Not a bad idea to verify the ESR of the new parts you're installing as well.
>> 
>>    -- john, KE5FX
>>    Miles Design LLC
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>    To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>    and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From ulf_r_k at yahoo.com  Sat Feb 24 11:25:38 2018
From: ulf_r_k at yahoo.com (Ulf Kylenfall)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:25:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] 5065's out there...
References: <1574089590.5273754.1519489538900.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1574089590.5273754.1519489538900@mail.yahoo.com>

 
My two units:
848-00131    Replaced Rb cavity all together with fresh electromechanics from -00107 unit.Also replaced the AC Amplifier with later (improved) version copied from HP manual.
836-00107    Scrapped since someone robbed it of the Quarz oscillator.The Rb cavity was used in -00131 above. The cavity was of a newer batchand had the light brown-greyish color of later generation HP instruments.Will use whats left of this unit for parts.
When salvaging parts I noticed that the RX cell SRD driver module did nothave any output and that someone had tried and failed to open the unit.
I experienced the same thing. My own "first" unit failed after having beenin operation for a week. I replaced the final (TO-5) transistor with a 2N5109and one of the other FET's with a 2N4416. This was exactly the samefaults in the scrapped unit's driver module. Possibly why that one was cannibalised anddecomissioned.
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV





From mike.eldrige at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 11:19:04 2018
From: mike.eldrige at msn.com (MIKE ELDRIGE)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:19:04 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling  Time and Frequency Equipment
Message-ID: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

TO ALL:

FOR SALE HP 5065A late s/n 2816A01617.
The unit has had the recommended caps replaced  and is working
great. I plan to send the unit to Corby for a plot and then it will be sold.
The starting price is going to be $4000.00 not a penny less.
Contact me off line from my e-mail below.
I will be putting together a list of cesium standards that
all work. I have  GPS receivers, FTS 5065, FTS-5065B and others.
Thanks,
    -- Mike, KG7AT
       Mike.eldrige at msn.com



From attila at kinali.ch  Sat Feb 24 11:58:47 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:58:47 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling  Time and Frequency Equipment
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20180224175847.79792c639339eec3f3023220@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:19:04 +0000
MIKE ELDRIGE <mike.eldrige at msn.com> wrote:

> The starting price is going to be $4000.00 not a penny less.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040A-RS-11696-501-Cesium-Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112784315644

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040B-077-003-08832-129-Cesium-Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112745451687


Just saying...

			Attila Kinali


-- 
<JaberWorky>	The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
                throw DARK chocolate at you.

From omniryx at gmail.com  Sat Feb 24 12:20:15 2018
From: omniryx at gmail.com (William H. Fite)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:20:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment
In-Reply-To: <20180224175847.79792c639339eec3f3023220@kinali.ch>
References: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180224175847.79792c639339eec3f3023220@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <CANy2iXq+LgwXf7iBxzbCgQjD0JQa9ysbwZR78M9iL3tdumXZXg@mail.gmail.com>

Had coffee with a realtor friend yesterday who was trying to explain to a
client: "It doesn't matter what you think it is worth. It doesn't matter
what you say it is worth. What matters is what a buyer will pay you for it.
The market, not the owner, decides the value of a piece of property.

To echo Attila, just sayin.....


On Saturday, February 24, 2018, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

> On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:19:04 +0000
> MIKE ELDRIGE <mike.eldrige at msn.com> wrote:
>
> > The starting price is going to be $4000.00 not a penny less.
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040A-RS-
> 11696-501-Cesium-Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112784315644
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040B-077-003-08832-129-Cesium-
> Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112745451687
>
>
> Just saying...
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
>
> --
> <JaberWorky>    The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
>                 throw DARK chocolate at you.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
when it deserves it.
--Mark Twain

We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
for sinners. His standards are quite low.
--Desmond Tutu

From ka2weu at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 12:44:05 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 12:44:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment
In-Reply-To: <CANy2iXq+LgwXf7iBxzbCgQjD0JQa9ysbwZR78M9iL3tdumXZXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180224175847.79792c639339eec3f3023220@kinali.ch>
 <CANy2iXq+LgwXf7iBxzbCgQjD0JQa9ysbwZR78M9iL3tdumXZXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <980A75D2-23C5-48C0-B11A-1B814445BEC8@aol.com>

That is correct 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 12:20 PM, William H. Fite <omniryx at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Had coffee with a realtor friend yesterday who was trying to explain to a
> client: "It doesn't matter what you think it is worth. It doesn't matter
> what you say it is worth. What matters is what a buyer will pay you for it.
> The market, not the owner, decides the value of a piece of property.
> 
> To echo Attila, just sayin.....
> 
> 
>> On Saturday, February 24, 2018, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 16:19:04 +0000
>> MIKE ELDRIGE <mike.eldrige at msn.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> The starting price is going to be $4000.00 not a penny less.
>> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040A-RS-
>> 11696-501-Cesium-Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112784315644
>> 
>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DATUM-Symmetricom-4040B-077-003-08832-129-Cesium-
>> Frequency-Standard-Atomic-Clock/112745451687
>> 
>> 
>> Just saying...
>> 
>>                        Attila Kinali
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> <JaberWorky>    The bad part of Zurich is where the degenerates
>>                throw DARK chocolate at you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
>> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government
> when it deserves it.
> --Mark Twain
> 
> We may be surprised at the people we find in heaven. God has a soft spot
> for sinners. His standards are quite low.
> --Desmond Tutu
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From cdelect at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 17:14:10 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:14:10 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment Or "just saying"
Message-ID: <AABPKD29RAEQL46J@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>

First, full disclosure, I have no vested or financial interest in the
5065A he is selling.

Now the 2816A prefix is the last series built so the most modern.
The last one I remember on eBay went for OVER $4000.00

Comparing a 5065A to a Cesium (except maybe a working 5071A for the same
price)\is worse than Apples and Oranges.

Ask Bert who got rid of his 5065A years ago because he had a Cesium, he
regrets that now and just got a new one!

A 5065A buyer is looking for the best short term stability he can find
(nominal 1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec)
Keeping on frequency is easy via GPS comparisons.

A Cesium buyer want NIST traceable accuracy "out of the box" and never
(practically) having to adjust the frequency. The Cesium will be worse
when  compared to the 5065A at shorter Tau even if it has a high
performance tube.

Another thing to consider when buying a Cesium is what is the condition
of the tube. The tube will die, just don't know when. (probably at the
most inconvenient time!), and lets not ask what a replacement tube costs!

There is no perceptible wear mechanisms in play for the 5065A (I have
seen exactly one failed lamp in many years of working on them) Many of
the first 1968 series built will still perform to specs today.

So,

Just saying!

Cheers,

Corby


From ka2weu at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 17:22:24 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:22:24 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment Or "just
	saying"
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD29RAEQL46J@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD29RAEQL46J@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <41FE14C2-C366-4CA7-9629-BB6B3F79140E@aol.com>

Interesting, you have a data sheet and a picture of this wonder ?

73 de N1UL 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 5:14 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
> 
> First, full disclosure, I have no vested or financial interest in the
> 5065A he is selling.
> 
> Now the 2816A prefix is the last series built so the most modern.
> The last one I remember on eBay went for OVER $4000.00
> 
> Comparing a 5065A to a Cesium (except maybe a working 5071A for the same
> price)\is worse than Apples and Oranges.
> 
> Ask Bert who got rid of his 5065A years ago because he had a Cesium, he
> regrets that now and just got a new one!
> 
> A 5065A buyer is looking for the best short term stability he can find
> (nominal 1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec)
> Keeping on frequency is easy via GPS comparisons.
> 
> A Cesium buyer want NIST traceable accuracy "out of the box" and never
> (practically) having to adjust the frequency. The Cesium will be worse
> when  compared to the 5065A at shorter Tau even if it has a high
> performance tube.
> 
> Another thing to consider when buying a Cesium is what is the condition
> of the tube. The tube will die, just don't know when. (probably at the
> most inconvenient time!), and lets not ask what a replacement tube costs!
> 
> There is no perceptible wear mechanisms in play for the 5065A (I have
> seen exactly one failed lamp in many years of working on them) Many of
> the first 1968 series built will still perform to specs today.
> 
> So,
> 
> Just saying!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Corby
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From john at miles.io  Sat Feb 24 17:32:44 2018
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 14:32:44 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment
In-Reply-To: <CANy2iXq+LgwXf7iBxzbCgQjD0JQa9ysbwZR78M9iL3tdumXZXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CY4PR16MB1733103DF3AEF1D98D6FF1B695C30@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
 <20180224175847.79792c639339eec3f3023220@kinali.ch>
 <CANy2iXq+LgwXf7iBxzbCgQjD0JQa9ysbwZR78M9iL3tdumXZXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009f01d3adbf$64666fb0$2d334f10$@miles.io>

> To echo Attila, just sayin.....

$4000 is up there, but not outrageous IMO.  If you have a $4000 budget and don't actually need a primary standard, a well-kept 5065A is a good way to go.  At taus less than a few hours they can outperform the best 5071As, even before Corby's mod is applied.  And they can be left powered on full time.

You can't do any better for the same money, put it that way.  5065As with the optical-filter mod are more appropriately compared to passive H-masers than to cesium standards.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC



From cdelect at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 18:45:06 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 15:45:06 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
Message-ID: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>

Hi,

I'm working to make some replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A to the
new style schematic.

Will share the Gerber file when done.

The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10% .42"DX1.0"L
axial.

Of course it has an HP part number and no manufactures #.

Any guess as to what type it is?

Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????

Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
with a 50ms time constant.)

Thanks,

Corby


From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sat Feb 24 18:51:57 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 23:51:57 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <28691.1519516317@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2 at smtpout03.dca.untd.com>, cdelect at juno.com writes:

>Any guess as to what type it is?
>
>Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????

I think the manual says polypropylene in the parts list ?

>Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
>with a 50ms time constant.)

The audiohomeopathy crowd claims to have PTFE/Teflon capacitors available
in these kinds of sizes and I've been meaning to buy one just to see if
it truly is PTFE or not, but list-prizes has nothing to do with reality.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sat Feb 24 18:56:31 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 18:56:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <920AE23C-DD4A-4FFC-84D7-0F4EDF439FF4@n1k.org>

Hi

Teflon is the traditional “best of the best” for integrator caps. Simply finding 
any plastic cap  (other than a motor start device) up around 5 uf is not that easy 
these days.  As mentioned by PHK, being sure it is what it’s supposed to be ….
good luck. 

Bob

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 6:45 PM, <cdelect at juno.com> <cdelect at juno.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm working to make some replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A to the
> new style schematic.
> 
> Will share the Gerber file when done.
> 
> The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10% .42"DX1.0"L
> axial.
> 
> Of course it has an HP part number and no manufactures #.
> 
> Any guess as to what type it is?
> 
> Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????
> 
> Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
> with a 50ms time constant.)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Corby
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From lajeunesse at mail.com  Sat Feb 24 20:29:35 2018
From: lajeunesse at mail.com (Robert LaJeunesse)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 02:29:35 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <trinity-275207ae-8a92-4979-ad0d-5f02e70d7e2e-1519522175807@3c-app-mailcom-lxa07>

Not too long ago I designed an integrator for a piezoelectric force transducer. The customer wanted a rock-solid output after a step load on the transducer. The capacitor of choice was PPS, used in surface mount form and less than 0.5uF total capacitance. With a particular PCB material chosen for low moisture absorption the drift ended up being in the 200uV/minute range (4mV in 20 minutes!). The capacitor of choice was PPS, and Kemet uses that for its 4.7uF radial lead part number SMR15475J50B14L16.5CBULK. Not cheap, but it's what I'd look at first.

Bob L.

> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 at 6:45 PM
> From: cdelect at juno.com
> To: time-nuts at febo.com
> Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
>
... The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10% .42"DX1.0"L
> axial.
> 
...Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
> with a 50ms time constant.)


From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sat Feb 24 20:34:36 2018
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 02:34:36 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <9f08c885-277a-adb2-bcd7-2b2fadbcfcf0@arcor.de>



Am 25.02.2018 um 00:45 schrieb cdelect at juno.com:
> Hi,
>
> I'm working to make some replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A to the
> new style schematic.
>
> Will share the Gerber file when done.
>
> The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10% .42"DX1.0"L
> axial.
>
> Of course it has an HP part number and no manufactures #.
>
> Any guess as to what type it is?
>
> Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????
>
> Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
> with a 50ms time constant.)

50 ms integration time and 5uF+-20% does not sound like a
leakage current problem. Polypropylene seems good enough.
Teflon would be a joke. I might even go with WIMA MKS4
(Polyester) if I had them in the drawer. Dielectric absorption
is also not a problem at these impedance levels and time constants.

When I recapped the electrolytics in my 4274A RLC bridge, it was
hard to find capacitors that fit the board footprint of the old ones.
Usually I had to choose 2 or 3 times the voltage so that they would
fit the board.  But that is a luxury problem. :-)


< 
https://www.digikey.de/products/de/capacitors/film-capacitors/62?k=&pkeyword=&FV=e340004%2Ce340007%2Ce340055%2C1f140000%2Cmu4.7%C2%B5F%7C2049%2Cmu5.1%C2%B5F%7C2049%2Cmu5%C2%B5F%7C2049%2Cffe0003e&quantity=0&ColumnSort=0&page=1&stock=1&pageSize=25 
   >

Mouser.com  should have just as much.

regards, Gerhard



From cdelect at juno.com  Sat Feb 24 20:40:28 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 17:40:28 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
Message-ID: <AABPKEFBRA6TK4UA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>

Well I hunted up the change pages for the A9.

The cap is polycarbonate, the original A9 was polyester.

If I can't find the polycarbonate I'll look into the PPS.

Cheers,

Corby


From mike.eldrige at msn.com  Sat Feb 24 20:59:08 2018
From: mike.eldrige at msn.com (MIKE ELDRIGE)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 01:59:08 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A
Message-ID: <CY4PR16MB1733ABC15BB615950D0E925495C20@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

TO ALL:

HP 5065A  IS sold.
Thank you, Mike

-- Mike, KG7AT
     Mike.eldrige at msn.com<mailto:Mike.eldrige at msn.com>



From holrum at hotmail.com  Sat Feb 24 21:35:47 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 02:35:47 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

For a while, all makers of polycarbonate caps got out of the business.   The US government had to step in and get involved... apparently they are used in a lot of explody thingies, etc.

Mouser shows one (around $7 for a 4.7 uF cap): 
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/BFC234421475?qs=XPb5zkzE6%252bBS9mv3hRFZcw%3d%3d

But, the datasheet link goes to a resistor...

From ka2weu at aol.com  Sat Feb 24 21:40:32 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:40:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CY4PR16MB1733ABC15BB615950D0E925495C20@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CY4PR16MB1733ABC15BB615950D0E925495C20@CY4PR16MB1733.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20E7B0EB-3549-431D-874C-65A811710FA7@aol.com>

Thanks for the note, Ulrich-Rohde, N1UL 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 24, 2018, at 8:59 PM, MIKE ELDRIGE <mike.eldrige at msn.com> wrote:
> 
> TO ALL:
> 
> HP 5065A  IS sold.
> Thank you, Mike
> 
> -- Mike, KG7AT
>     Mike.eldrige at msn.com<mailto:Mike.eldrige at msn.com>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From bill.iaxs at pobox.com  Sat Feb 24 22:26:07 2018
From: bill.iaxs at pobox.com (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:26:07 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKD8MDAT36FV2@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <E6465430F8CA45CCB32FF2C27A689F6A@system072>

Corby

A time constant is calculated from R and C.

If 50 milliseconds is the correct number, R for 5 mfd is 10,000 ohms.

You could use an aluminum electrolytic for the capacitor.

Can you tell us where the 50 ms number came from?

Regards,
Bill Hawkins


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
cdelect at juno.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A

Hi,

I'm working to make some replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A to the
new style schematic.

Will share the Gerber file when done.

The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10%
.42"DX1.0"L axial.

Of course it has an HP part number and no manufactures #.

Any guess as to what type it is?

Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????

Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
with a 50ms time constant.)

Thanks,

Corby

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Sat Feb 24 22:45:45 2018
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 22:45:45 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <AABPKEFBRA6TK4UA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
References: <AABPKEFBRA6TK4UA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <5A923169.1050200@yandex.com>

The key properties relevant to long-TC integrator capacitors are 
insulation resistance (leakage) and dielectric absorption (DA).  (One 
response on this thread opined that DA is not important in this circuit, 
but that is not correct.  DA is most definitely a factor in long-TC 
integrators, including this one.)  If maintaining an absolute time 
constant is important, then tempco enters the picture (but the absolute 
time constant of the A9 integrator is not a critical parameter).

Consider polypropylene (PP) capacitors as the baseline for long-TC 
integrator applications.

Polycarbonate (PC) capacitors are very scarce these days, because the 
sole source of PC capacitor film discontinued it over 15 years ago. 
Even if they were available, the advantages of PC over PP in this 
application are small.

PPS has a lower tempco than PP, and may have lower leakage (depending on 
construction and processing).  They are generally not so easy to find, 
particularly in larger values, but Robert already directed you to the 
Kemet SMR series, which are available in suitable values and are 
conveniently packaged.

Polystyrene (PS) is the best dielectric for long-TC integrators except 
for Teflon (PTFE), but PS caps are extremely hard to find in large 
values, are generally huge compared to PP and PPS, are easily damaged 
during soldering, and are not conveniently packaged.

PTFE is the best dielectric for long-TC integrators, but PTFE caps are 
expensive and huge, and they are unnecessary for this application.

Your best choices are PP and PPS.  The DA of PP and PPS are similar. The 
leakage depends as much on the construction and processing of particular 
caps as on the bulk resistivities of PP and PPS, so look at the 
datasheets carefully to see what is guaranteed by the manufacturers.

Best regards,

Charles


On 2/24/2018 8:40 PM, cdelect at juno.com wrote:
> Well I hunted up the change pages for the A9.
>
> The cap is polycarbonate, the original A9 was polyester.
>
> If I can't find the polycarbonate I'll look into the PPS.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Corby
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Sat Feb 24 23:44:16 2018
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 23:44:16 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <5A923169.1050200@yandex.com>
References: <AABPKEFBRA6TK4UA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
 <5A923169.1050200@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <5A923F20.7020506@yandex.com>

Returning to the topic of what op-amp to use:

Bert asked if the LT1793 is a good choice.  I suggested the LT1012 as 
superior in the specific parameters that will provide best performance 
in the HP circuit 
(https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2018-February/108964.html). 
Attila suggested the LTC6240HV.

I continue to believe that the LT1012 is the best choice (or, 
alternatively, the similar OP97 -- but the LT1012 would be my first choice).

As Attila noted, the 6240 is limited to +/- 5v supplies.  I do not know 
if the output voltage of the A9 ass'y needs to be able to swing beyond 
+/- 5v, but I would not be inclined to change this without a lot of 
careful thought (and adding another op-amp does not excite me).  But 
really, that is not necessary.  Even if the 6240 could supply outputs up 
to +/- 15v, the LT1012 would still be a better choice.

Given the relatively low resistances at the op-amp inputs (10k ohms), 
the ultra-low input "bias" (leakage) current of the 6240 is simply 
unnecessary.  Any offset due to the input currents (within the general 
range of any of these op-amps) is insignificant compared to the op-amp's 
offset voltage.  Thus, offset voltage, offset voltage tempco, and offset 
voltage long-tem drift are the critical parameters (as Poul-Henning 
pointed out).  And here, the 1012 is clearly the best of the three.  In 
addition to having the lowest input offset spec, the 1012 has guaranteed 
maximum specifications for these important parameters.  The 6240 (for 
good reason) is *not even rated* for long-term stability (drift). 
(Long-term offset stability is a particular weakness of CMOS op-amps.)

Finally, as I noted before, the 1012 has an overcompensation pin that 
may be useful to improve the damping and the wideband noise of the 
integrator.  (This would, of course, require a small amount of design 
work to place overcompensation pole(s) and possibly zero(es) to best 
advantage, but may provide significantly improved performance.)

Of all the op-amps I know and use, the LT1012 would be my first choice 
for the A9 integrator board.

Attila also advocated using the "much cheaper and easier to solder TPS7A49
[and] TPS7A3001" voltage regulators, as opposed to the LT3042 and a 
negative-regulator-to-be-named-later that I mentioned.  I concur with 
his suggestion.

Best regards,

Charles



From stewart.cobb at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 03:31:59 2018
From: stewart.cobb at gmail.com (Stewart Cobb)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:31:59 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] "Super Rubidium" filter mod for PRS-10?
In-Reply-To: <CAPXiX5pHoKqGOsAY7Ohjqwx4nOdem79dhyn9Hh2x5WetBjpo6w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPXiX5qFv95PPh+kTHAGn9waUthYMJ-HmhdMPGrUgeOfDwkkaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rx8C=DFUn9GSpggGjZ=pRN25kqV5uPKpkg=HDH+Xb4zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o=7vMa5iSQHqB4Y8gkjC6a7w8toWkaD=wSjTFMmtoD-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5r-9zQ+7NCPTjVsVfkKewdp=KZ8HgnFHnzmjWqkY9k1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5prcCPxjERed-L2G9H3_ivVDz+5Y5_gaUQPwSp=OJ5Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qZTWFincL8FUc3zNVhi+3tycTKancnXMbCSSuSdtLuXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pHoKqGOsAY7Ohjqwx4nOdem79dhyn9Hh2x5WetBjpo6w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPXiX5p8u5ur=ZyxmcJhmvC5fJ5v8QvboffcQEO9kk_tWXwTiw@mail.gmail.com>

Corby has said more than once that it's not worth doing the "super 5065"
optical filter mod to small telecon rubidiums, because they have too many
other compromises in their designs.

What about the SRS PRS-10? By some indications, it's the best
current-production rubidium around. It doesn't have separate filter and
resonance cells, but other than that it seems like a good design. And the
time constants and such are digitally tunable. Is the PRS-10 worth trying
the filter mod on?

Cheers!
--Stu

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Sun Feb 25 05:22:49 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 10:22:49 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] "Super Rubidium" filter mod for PRS-10?
In-Reply-To: <CAPXiX5p8u5ur=ZyxmcJhmvC5fJ5v8QvboffcQEO9kk_tWXwTiw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPXiX5qFv95PPh+kTHAGn9waUthYMJ-HmhdMPGrUgeOfDwkkaA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5rx8C=DFUn9GSpggGjZ=pRN25kqV5uPKpkg=HDH+Xb4zg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5o=7vMa5iSQHqB4Y8gkjC6a7w8toWkaD=wSjTFMmtoD-Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5r-9zQ+7NCPTjVsVfkKewdp=KZ8HgnFHnzmjWqkY9k1XQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5prcCPxjERed-L2G9H3_ivVDz+5Y5_gaUQPwSp=OJ5Peg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5qZTWFincL8FUc3zNVhi+3tycTKancnXMbCSSuSdtLuXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5pHoKqGOsAY7Ohjqwx4nOdem79dhyn9Hh2x5WetBjpo6w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPXiX5p8u5ur=ZyxmcJhmvC5fJ5v8QvboffcQEO9kk_tWXwTiw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30609.1519554169@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAPXiX5p8u5ur=ZyxmcJhmvC5fJ5v8QvboffcQEO9kk_tWXwTiw at mail.gmail.com>, Stewart Cobb writes:

>What about the SRS PRS-10? By some indications, it's the best
>current-production rubidium around. It doesn't have separate filter and
>resonance cells, but other than that it seems like a good design. And the
>time constants and such are digitally tunable. Is the PRS-10 worth trying
>the filter mod on?

Apart from being able to fit the filter in mechanically, the only risk
I see is that the microcontroller might know the correct ratio of "stray"
light to "signal" light and get upset.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sun Feb 25 06:26:05 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 06:26:05 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] "Super Rubidium" filter mod for PRS-10?
In-Reply-To: <30609.1519554169@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <mailman.5.1519557984.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

I still stand by FRK, next to HP largest cell, Corby did it with a M 100 much more difficult. I started on a FRK but because of a macular hole in my left eye had to stop.First  test  should be to change time constant and monitor performance.Remember the outstanding performance  of the HP is do to the fact that the optical unit takes over somewhere around 0.1 seconds.FRK is well documented and easy to work on.We have pictures have to compress to attach to time nuts or contact me off list.Again if some one wants to take over please contact me directBert Kehren 


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> Date: 2/25/18  5:22 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com>, Stewart Cobb <stewart.cobb at gmail.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] "Super Rubidium" filter mod for PRS-10? 
--------
In message <CAPXiX5p8u5ur=ZyxmcJhmvC5fJ5v8QvboffcQEO9kk_tWXwTiw at mail.gmail.com>, Stewart Cobb writes:

>What about the SRS PRS-10? By some indications, it's the best
>current-production rubidium around. It doesn't have separate filter and
>resonance cells, but other than that it seems like a good design. And the
>time constants and such are digitally tunable. Is the PRS-10 worth trying
>the filter mod on?

Apart from being able to fit the filter in mechanically, the only risk
I see is that the microcontroller might know the correct ratio of "stray"
light to "signal" light and get upset.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sun Feb 25 06:35:32 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 06:35:32 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <E6465430F8CA45CCB32FF2C27A689F6A@system072>
Message-ID: <mailman.6.1519558542.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Corby is still asleep, on the old board it was 0.5 uF and 100K now 5 uF and 10K. Who knows what HP knew in the 60`s but it works and I dought that it is critical. No where is there any fine  tuning like two resistors in seriesBert Kehren 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Bill Hawkins <bill.iaxs at pobox.com> Date: 2/24/18  10:26 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A 
Corby

A time constant is calculated from R and C.

If 50 milliseconds is the correct number, R for 5 mfd is 10,000 ohms.

You could use an aluminum electrolytic for the capacitor.

Can you tell us where the 50 ms number came from?

Regards,
Bill Hawkins


-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of
cdelect at juno.com
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 5:45 PM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A

Hi,

I'm working to make some replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A to the
new style schematic.

Will share the Gerber file when done.

The integrator capacitor is a 1986 vintage TRW 5.0ufd 50V 10%
.42"DX1.0"L axial.

Of course it has an HP part number and no manufactures #.

Any guess as to what type it is?

Polycarbonate, polypropylene, ???????

Just wanting to find a good modern replacement for its use. (Integrator
with a 50ms time constant.)

Thanks,

Corby

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From csteinmetz at yandex.com  Sun Feb 25 06:35:58 2018
From: csteinmetz at yandex.com (Charles Steinmetz)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 06:35:58 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>

Interesting.  I'm inclined to say I stand corrected, BUT:  (i) as Mark 
noted, the datasheet link points to the datasheet for Vishay FC Series 
HF thin-film resistors [which are really excellent low-reactance T/F 
resistors, if you need any]; (ii) I cannot find any reference to PC caps 
on the Vishay/BC web site; and (iii) other distributors do not list this 
cap (or any Vishay/BC PC caps, for that matter).

I did discover Electronic Concepts (ECI) (https://www.ecicaps.com/), who 
claim to make their own PC film and do seem to supply three series of PC 
caps.  They seem mainly to make them to order, but they have small 
quantities of some parts in stock.  Prices are by quotation, so I don't 
know what they charge.  I assume they are pretty pricey, and if they run 
out of an in-stock cap there may be a minimum order to get more.

So, I do stand corrected.

All that said, PP and PPS are the best choices for the A9 integrator 
project.

Best regards,

Charles


On 2/24/2018 9:35 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
> For a while, all makers of polycarbonate caps got out of the business.   The US government had to step in and get involved... apparently they are used in a lot of explody thingies, etc.
>
> Mouser shows one (around $7 for a 4.7 uF cap):
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/BFC234421475?qs=XPb5zkzE6%252bBS9mv3hRFZcw%3d%3d
>
> But, the datasheet link goes to a resistor...
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


From azelio.boriani at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 07:46:07 2018
From: azelio.boriani at gmail.com (Azelio Boriani)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 13:46:07 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>

The part number BFC234421475, on <http://www.wima.com.ua/BFC234421475>
seems to be a Philips product, 2500 available, for 49.28 UAH
(Ukrainian Hryvnia, that is 1.77 USD). A mysterious capacitor...

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 12:35 PM, Charles Steinmetz
<csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:
> Interesting.  I'm inclined to say I stand corrected, BUT:  (i) as Mark
> noted, the datasheet link points to the datasheet for Vishay FC Series HF
> thin-film resistors [which are really excellent low-reactance T/F resistors,
> if you need any]; (ii) I cannot find any reference to PC caps on the
> Vishay/BC web site; and (iii) other distributors do not list this cap (or
> any Vishay/BC PC caps, for that matter).
>
> I did discover Electronic Concepts (ECI) (https://www.ecicaps.com/), who
> claim to make their own PC film and do seem to supply three series of PC
> caps.  They seem mainly to make them to order, but they have small
> quantities of some parts in stock.  Prices are by quotation, so I don't know
> what they charge.  I assume they are pretty pricey, and if they run out of
> an in-stock cap there may be a minimum order to get more.
>
> So, I do stand corrected.
>
> All that said, PP and PPS are the best choices for the A9 integrator
> project.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> On 2/24/2018 9:35 PM, Mark Sims wrote:
>>
>> For a while, all makers of polycarbonate caps got out of the business.
>> The US government had to step in and get involved... apparently they are
>> used in a lot of explody thingies, etc.
>>
>> Mouser shows one (around $7 for a 4.7 uF cap):
>>
>> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Vishay-BC-Components/BFC234421475?qs=XPb5zkzE6%252bBS9mv3hRFZcw%3d%3d
>>
>> But, the datasheet link goes to a resistor...
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From ewkehren at aol.com  Sun Feb 25 07:54:39 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 07:54:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
Message-ID: <161cd07875a-155b-1223@webjas-vab170.srv.aolmail.net>

attached a picture of the open FRK
Bert Kehren
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From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sun Feb 25 09:05:31 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 09:05:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
Message-ID: <mailman.7.1519567546.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

We have pictures of the guts of a M100 the file is 1.8 M off list or permission to postBert Kehren 


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A

From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Sun Feb 25 11:04:45 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:04:45 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
Message-ID: <c0cf9e0d-6e7a-d416-cf05-f4cf98801e8d@gmx.de>

Bert, you may upload it to this directory, which timenuts can then 
access and download as well, using this directory also:
https://my.hidrive.com/share/5fohndsi4k
The up- and downloads are much faster and there is no Mbit limit.
I will keep it open for a while. Give me a note if this ok for you.
Try it.
Of course, from time to time I will clean up a bit.

Regards,

Arnold, DK2WT

Am 25.02.2018 um 15:05 schrieb ewkehren via time-nuts:
> We have pictures of the guts of a M100 the file is 1.8 M off list or permission to postBert Kehren
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From ulf_r_k at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 25 11:38:32 2018
From: ulf_r_k at yahoo.com (Ulf Kylenfall)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:38:32 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 Boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <837118108.5566401.1519562746244@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <837118108.5566401.1519562746244.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <837118108.5566401.1519562746244@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1892729273.5632592.1519576712790@mail.yahoo.com>



     
 
Having upgraded my 5065A with an improved AC Amplifier BoardI went along to also upgrade the A9 Integrator. I obtaineda few OPA111's and also found a what I beleive was anacceptable quality integrator capacitor. My prototype usedstandard 78xx and 79xx voltage regulators.
When testing this board according to the service manualthe output voltage did not change between going fora mug of cofee and returning after having finished it.
I take that as an "OK".
The design did not go to well with the older type of OCXO though(Yes - I noticed Corbys warning about the resistor presenton the fp switch). So I did not install the board.
Attached is a .PDF and a .JPG
Comments invited.
Ulf Kylenfall
SM6GXV




   
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From swperk at earthlink.net  Sun Feb 25 14:41:36 2018
From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 11:41:36 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
Message-ID: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>

With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!

My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?

I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.

Thanks,
Stan


From ka2weu at aol.com  Sun Feb 25 14:47:52 2018
From: ka2weu at aol.com (Dr. Ulrich L. Rohde)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:47:52 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
References: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <FDC34A81-1B29-4CE1-9788-6F7D448D3C0C@aol.com>

Yes, a lot of activity !

Ulrich 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 2:41 PM, Stan <swperk at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!
> 
> My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?
> 
> I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From dk4xp at arcor.de  Sun Feb 25 14:50:42 2018
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:50:42 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>



Am 25.02.2018 um 13:46 schrieb Azelio Boriani:
> The part number BFC234421475, on <http://www.wima.com.ua/BFC234421475>
> seems to be a Philips product, 2500 available, for 49.28 UAH
> (Ukrainian Hryvnia, that is 1.77 USD). A mysterious capacitor...
Why not go to Mouser or DK, as usual?

Or to the source itself:
<  https://www.wima.de/en/  >

(Abt. an hour of driving from where I'm now).

BTW last time I bought some at DK/Mouser, there was
a pricing artefact, in that 5% was cheaper than 10%

:-)  Gerhard



From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb 25 15:00:08 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:00:08 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
References: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B0A30BBC-9436-4F47-A227-4E6A00402699@n1k.org>

Hi

One very practical option: Pull the battery and don’t replace it. When the unit
next comes out of storage, run it on a very normal UPS. The battery was
a fine idea back in the era when this gear was newly designed. These days,
the better option is an external “bulk” backup. 

If you are going to run 24/7/365, the charger circuit in all of these gizmos (HP
liked battery backup …..) is not the best for long term battery survival. It’s not
awful, but it’s not what you would do today. If the unit goes into storage most of 
the time, batteries really don’t like that very much either. 

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 2:41 PM, Stan <swperk at earthlink.net> wrote:
> 
> With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!
> 
> My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?
> 
> I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.
> 
> Thanks,
> Stan
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sun Feb 25 15:17:07 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 15:17:07 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.8.1519589837.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Discooect I have seen them leak all over the placeBert Kehren 


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Stan <swperk at earthlink.net> Date: 2/25/18  2:41 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A? 
With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!

My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?

I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.

Thanks,
Stan

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From cautery at montac.com  Sun Feb 25 15:34:29 2018
From: cautery at montac.com (Clay Autery)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:34:29 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <mailman.9.1519593954.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

I don't know what your package requirement is, but I would at least LOOK at LiFePO as a solution.  These guys provide all my radio related batteries...
https://www.bioennopower.com/collections/24v-series-lifepo4-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries/products/24v-10ah-lfp-battery-abs-blf-2410ts
The smallest 24vdc I see is 10 Ahr, but they are very responsive and will either help you out or send you in the right direction.


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
-------- Original message --------From: Stan <swperk at earthlink.net> Date: 2/25/18  13:41  (GMT-06:00) To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A? 
With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!

My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?

I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.

Thanks,
Stan

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Sun Feb 25 17:12:15 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:12:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <c0cf9e0d-6e7a-d416-cf05-f4cf98801e8d@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <mailman.10.1519596757.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Thank you I am presently only on my tablet I will be on my laptop in the morning do not think that there is much interest hardware or solder iron 1%Bert


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> Date: 2/25/18  11:04 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: time-nuts at febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FRK 
Bert, you may upload it to this directory, which timenuts can then 
access and download as well, using this directory also:
https://my.hidrive.com/share/5fohndsi4k
The up- and downloads are much faster and there is no Mbit limit.
I will keep it open for a while. Give me a note if this ok for you.
Try it.
Of course, from time to time I will clean up a bit.

Regards,

Arnold, DK2WT

Am 25.02.2018 um 15:05 schrieb ewkehren via time-nuts:
> We have pictures of the guts of a M100 the file is 1.8 M off list or permission to postBert Kehren
> 
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From scmcgrath at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 18:18:55 2018
From: scmcgrath at gmail.com (Scott McGrath)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 18:18:55 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
References: <001901d3ae70$a5feb660$f1fc2320$@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CE0D08E-CB25-4A79-AAC1-6C3095A2FB79@gmail.com>

On 5065A backup batteries,  The  Batteries Plus does a good job of rebuilding HP/Agilent battery packs.

I paid 125 a couple years ago to have my 5065A pack rebuilt.   



On Feb 25, 2018, at 2:41 PM, Stan <swperk at earthlink.net> wrote:

With all this recent 5065A talk I decided to pull mine out of storage and fire it up. After a little time to let everything warm up and settle in, I'm happy to report that it's working just fine!

My 5065A has the battery backup option, and the battery is the original one (1420-0066, Energy Sales p/n ES710, 25.2V 1.4 Ah). Not surprisingly, the battery is quite dead. Does anyone any insight about installing a more modern battery (SLA or NiMH, perhaps) that will fit in the battery compartment in the 5065A?

I've looked at a few small 12V/2.2Ah SLA batteries that are physically small enough that I should be able to fit a couple in the enclosure and connect them in series to get 24 volts out, but I want to wait until either I have assurance from someone with more experience than I that this will actually work, or a better idea about a more suitable replacement.

Thanks,
Stan

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From skip.withrow at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 18:52:15 2018
From: skip.withrow at gmail.com (Skip Withrow)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:52:15 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch
Message-ID: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>

 Hello Time-Nuts,

For many years I owned a Casio WaveCeptor digital watch and like it a
lot.  The down side was that the battery had to be replaced every few
years.  And since I had worn it for many years, the plastic case and
crystal had taken quite a beating.  Finally, the pin holder that
secures the band broke - end of watch (except as a 'pocket' watch).

So, I went out and bought a solar powered analog version of the
WaveCeptor (and vowed not to take it caving).  However, several months
ago I needed to take an action at an exact time (not ebay) which was a
miserable fail.  I found that the watch was over a minute off.

I went back and explored the watch manual and found that there is a
procedure to sync the minute and second hands.  I did this and after
syncing to WWVB all was good.

Now, a couple of months later I needed the precise time again.
However I checked my watch before hand and found that it was 8 seconds
off.  Ahrg!

It appears that the stepper motor position of the second and minute
hands can be jarred out of sync with normal wear bumps and shocks.
The trouble is you don't know when it happens (unless you check your
watch against a trusted source often).

Now I'm seriously considering buying a solar version of the digital
watch to get rid of the problem.

Regards,
Skip Withrow

From tshoppa at gmail.com  Sun Feb 25 20:17:33 2018
From: tshoppa at gmail.com (Tim Shoppa)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:17:33 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch
In-Reply-To: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJ_qRvbKGjqwQFh_oD_1fC8prqcoOvaX1ojdTK=7Z225aXemEQ@mail.gmail.com>

I had the black plastic digital LCD (no hands) waveceptor for 5+ years and
my only complaint about it was the short life of the Casio watch bands and
replacements which rarely lasted longer than a year.

3 years ago I upgraded to a Solar-powered Waveceptor WVA-640 with a metal
band and am very happy with it. It syncs to WWVB every morning 1-3AM all
the way out here on East Coast, and I have never observed it being off by a
fraction of a second during the day.

I have had other (Seiko) watch-hand watches that I had to do the
jiggling-the-hand-stepper-motor-to-be-in-sync thing - but only after
exposure to very close AC magnetic fields. Being within a few feet of large
multi-thousand-amp transformer windings, or just inches of a magnetic tape
degausser, can drive any analog hand watch bonkers, not just the stepper
motor ones. Skip, is it possible that your hand alignment problems are
because you were working near large AC or pulsing DC currents?

Tim N3QE

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 6:52 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow at gmail.com>
wrote:

>  Hello Time-Nuts,
>
> For many years I owned a Casio WaveCeptor digital watch and like it a
> lot.  The down side was that the battery had to be replaced every few
> years.  And since I had worn it for many years, the plastic case and
> crystal had taken quite a beating.  Finally, the pin holder that
> secures the band broke - end of watch (except as a 'pocket' watch).
>
> So, I went out and bought a solar powered analog version of the
> WaveCeptor (and vowed not to take it caving).  However, several months
> ago I needed to take an action at an exact time (not ebay) which was a
> miserable fail.  I found that the watch was over a minute off.
>
> I went back and explored the watch manual and found that there is a
> procedure to sync the minute and second hands.  I did this and after
> syncing to WWVB all was good.
>
> Now, a couple of months later I needed the precise time again.
> However I checked my watch before hand and found that it was 8 seconds
> off.  Ahrg!
>
> It appears that the stepper motor position of the second and minute
> hands can be jarred out of sync with normal wear bumps and shocks.
> The trouble is you don't know when it happens (unless you check your
> watch against a trusted source often).
>
> Now I'm seriously considering buying a solar version of the digital
> watch to get rid of the problem.
>
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Sun Feb 25 20:30:21 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 20:30:21 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch
In-Reply-To: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0AD7E5C9-C29D-49F8-B497-E906A22ABA32@n1k.org>

Hi

I’ve had the Citizen “Atomic” analog watches for quite a few years. The solar powered
versions have gotten a bit better over the years. They nave never had a “hand slip” 
problem that I have noticed.

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 6:52 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Hello Time-Nuts,
> 
> For many years I owned a Casio WaveCeptor digital watch and like it a
> lot.  The down side was that the battery had to be replaced every few
> years.  And since I had worn it for many years, the plastic case and
> crystal had taken quite a beating.  Finally, the pin holder that
> secures the band broke - end of watch (except as a 'pocket' watch).
> 
> So, I went out and bought a solar powered analog version of the
> WaveCeptor (and vowed not to take it caving).  However, several months
> ago I needed to take an action at an exact time (not ebay) which was a
> miserable fail.  I found that the watch was over a minute off.
> 
> I went back and explored the watch manual and found that there is a
> procedure to sync the minute and second hands.  I did this and after
> syncing to WWVB all was good.
> 
> Now, a couple of months later I needed the precise time again.
> However I checked my watch before hand and found that it was 8 seconds
> off.  Ahrg!
> 
> It appears that the stepper motor position of the second and minute
> hands can be jarred out of sync with normal wear bumps and shocks.
> The trouble is you don't know when it happens (unless you check your
> watch against a trusted source often).
> 
> Now I'm seriously considering buying a solar version of the digital
> watch to get rid of the problem.
> 
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From actast at hotmail.com  Sun Feb 25 21:32:52 2018
From: actast at hotmail.com (Tom Knox)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 02:32:52 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch
In-Reply-To: <0AD7E5C9-C29D-49F8-B497-E906A22ABA32@n1k.org>
References: <CA+oSWyU8c3Tn3HvwPTxXYSakwgVy5AaH4vvfKt-jW0e6xRTyww@mail.gmail.com>,
 <0AD7E5C9-C29D-49F8-B497-E906A22ABA32@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <SN1PR16MB06549F5D626587A6ADE9D57BDFC10@SN1PR16MB0654.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

Hi All;

I have has a Citizen as well and it has been bullet proof skiing, cycling and such well over five years. I did a quick search because when I purchased it was really pricey but a quick search and Zales has what appears the exact model:

Analog Citizen Eco-Drive® Skyhawk Atomic Titanium Solar 200M Flight Chronograph Watch (Model: JY0010-50E) $233 shipped. I know that is a bit more expensive but it is amazing.

Cheers;


Thomas Knox



________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:30 PM
To: swithrow at alum.mit.edu; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Beware the Casio WaveCeptor analog watch

Hi

I’ve had the Citizen “Atomic” analog watches for quite a few years. The solar powered
versions have gotten a bit better over the years. They nave never had a “hand slip”
problem that I have noticed.

Bob

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 6:52 PM, Skip Withrow <skip.withrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Time-Nuts,
>
> For many years I owned a Casio WaveCeptor digital watch and like it a
> lot.  The down side was that the battery had to be replaced every few
> years.  And since I had worn it for many years, the plastic case and
> crystal had taken quite a beating.  Finally, the pin holder that
> secures the band broke - end of watch (except as a 'pocket' watch).
>
> So, I went out and bought a solar powered analog version of the
> WaveCeptor (and vowed not to take it caving).  However, several months
> ago I needed to take an action at an exact time (not ebay) which was a
> miserable fail.  I found that the watch was over a minute off.
>
> I went back and explored the watch manual and found that there is a
> procedure to sync the minute and second hands.  I did this and after
> syncing to WWVB all was good.
>
> Now, a couple of months later I needed the precise time again.
> However I checked my watch before hand and found that it was 8 seconds
> off.  Ahrg!
>
> It appears that the stepper motor position of the second and minute
> hands can be jarred out of sync with normal wear bumps and shocks.
> The trouble is you don't know when it happens (unless you check your
> watch against a trusted source often).
>
> Now I'm seriously considering buying a solar version of the digital
> watch to get rid of the problem.
>
> Regards,
> Skip Withrow
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
www.febo.com
time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ...


> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
time-nuts Info Page - American Febo Enterprises<https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts>
www.febo.com
time-nuts is a low volume, high SNR list for the discussion of precise time and frequency measurement and related topics. To see the collection of prior postings to ...


and follow the instructions there.

From leedyt at aol.com  Mon Feb 26 02:13:25 2018
From: leedyt at aol.com (leedyt at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 02:13:25 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] An atomic clock used to measure the height of a mountain
Message-ID: <161d0f57c8d-154c-23457@webjas-vab035.srv.aolmail.net>

Hi:


By comparing the tick rate of the portable atomic clock on a mountain with a similar clock in a lab in Torino, Italy, researchers at Germany’s National Metrology Institute showed that the altitude difference between the two locations was about 1,000 meters, or 3,280 feet. Their work was published in Nature Physics.  A related article here.


Best --
Tom Leedy - Clarksburg, MD





From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 05:43:04 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 02:43:04 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>

This note is a follow-up to Ralph Devoe's ADEV posting earlier this month.

It's a long story but last week I was in the Bay Area with a car full of batteries, BVA and cesium references, hp counters, and a TimePod. I was able to double check Ralph's Digilent-based ADEV device [1] and also to independently measure various frequency standards, including the actual 5065A and 5071A that he used in his experiment.

For the range of tau where we overlap, his ADEV measurements closely match my ADEV measurements. So that's very good news. His Digilent plot [2] and my TimePod / TimeLab plot are attached.

Note that his Digilent+Python setup isn't currently set up for continuous or short-tau measurement intervals -- plus I didn't have my isolation amplifiers -- so we didn't try a *concurrent* Digilent and TimePod measurement.

I'm sure more will come of his project over time and I hope to make additional measurements using a wider variety of stable / unstable sources, either down there in CA with another clock trip or up here in WA with a clone of his prototype. It would be nice to further validate this wave fitting technique, perhaps uncover and quantify subtle biases that depend on power law noise (or ADC resolution, or sample rate, or sample size, etc.), and also to explore environmental stability of the instrument.

I can tell Ralph put a lot of work into this project and I'm pleased he chose to share his results with time nuts. I mean, it's not every day that national lab or university level projects embrace our little community.

/tvb

[1] http://aip.scitation.org/doi/pdf/10.1063/1.5010140 (PDF)
[2] https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2018-February/108857.html

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ralph Devoe" <rgdevoe at gmail.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:52 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting

> I've been comparing the ADEV produced by the sine-wave fitter (discussed
> last November) with that of a counter-based system. See the enclosed plot.
> We ran the test in Leo Hollberg's lab at Stanford, using a 5071a Cesium
> standard and my own 5065a Rubidium standard. Leo first measured the ADEV
> using a Keysight 53230a counter with a 100 second gate time. We then
> substituted the fitter for the counter and took 10,000 points at 20 second
> intervals. The two systems produce the same ADEV all the way down to the
> 5x10(-14) level where (presumably) temperature and pressure variations make
> the Rb wobble around a bit.
> 
> The revised paper has been published online at Rev. Sci. Instr.

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From hmurray at megapathdsl.net  Mon Feb 26 06:25:38 2018
From: hmurray at megapathdsl.net (Hal Murray)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 03:25:38 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Setting time on Z3801A and KS24361
Message-ID: <20180226112538.473E940605C@ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>


I currently have one each that think it is 13 Jul 1998.  That's ballpark of 
20 years ago.  I assume it's 1024 weeks.  The time of day is good.

Has anybody set their time recently?

I thought I knew how to set the time, but the last time I tried, it didn't 
work.  I have done it in the past, but that was several/many years ago.  I 
think a recent date was rejected.  I'll dig out the exact error message if 
anybody is curious.

I also have a Z3801A that is working correctly.  I assume it has not lost 
internal power since before the magic date and the date-check is on the 
set-path rather than the current-time path.

-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.




From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 06:37:05 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 03:37:05 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment Or "just
	saying"
References: <AABPKD29RAEQL46J@smtpout04.dca.untd.com>
Message-ID: <446D1389B18A4D6B8E0210846E5FC6AB@pc52>

Corby,

Thanks for your informative posting. I concur. Let me add a visual that echoes your comments. It's the same plot that I attached in the note about Ralph's lab. For those of you who can't view email attachments see [1].

The plot is ADEV of 4 typical lab frequency sources:

- A 5071A in Ralph's lab, on loan from NIST.
- A 5065A Ralph owns, which has some 120 Hz noise, but excellent stability beyond tau 1 s.
- The 10 MHz ref out of a Agilent/Keysight 53230A counter (XO or TCXO, not sure).
- The 10 MHz ref out of a SRS SG348 signal generator (OCXO option).

Note the difference between the 5065A and the 5071A in the plot. You can see why for many experiments a 5065A is preferred. I mean, over a wide range of tau it's 4x better. OTOH, if you want to make short-term measurements against a cesium standard, by all means turn off the Cs beam and let it free-run. Both the 5061A and 5071A make this easy.

/tvb

[1] http://leapsecond.com/tmp/2018b-Ralph-4-adev.png


----- Original Message ----- 
From: <cdelect at juno.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 2:14 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Selling Time and Frequency Equipment Or "just saying"


> First, full disclosure, I have no vested or financial interest in the
> 5065A he is selling.
> 
> Now the 2816A prefix is the last series built so the most modern.
> The last one I remember on eBay went for OVER $4000.00
> 
> Comparing a 5065A to a Cesium (except maybe a working 5071A for the same
> price)\is worse than Apples and Oranges.
> 
> Ask Bert who got rid of his 5065A years ago because he had a Cesium, he
> regrets that now and just got a new one!
> 
> A 5065A buyer is looking for the best short term stability he can find
> (nominal 1.5X10-13th at 100 Sec)
> Keeping on frequency is easy via GPS comparisons.
> 
> A Cesium buyer want NIST traceable accuracy "out of the box" and never
> (practically) having to adjust the frequency. The Cesium will be worse
> when  compared to the 5065A at shorter Tau even if it has a high
> performance tube.
> 
> Another thing to consider when buying a Cesium is what is the condition
> of the tube. The tube will die, just don't know when. (probably at the
> most inconvenient time!), and lets not ask what a replacement tube costs!
> 
> There is no perceptible wear mechanisms in play for the 5065A (I have
> seen exactly one failed lamp in many years of working on them) Many of
> the first 1968 series built will still perform to specs today.
> 
> So,
> 
> Just saying!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Corby

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From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Feb 26 06:47:09 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:47:09 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
Message-ID: <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 02:43:04 -0800
"Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:

> This note is a follow-up to Ralph Devoe's ADEV posting earlier this month.
> 
> It's a long story but last week I was in the Bay Area with a car full of 
> batteries, BVA and cesium references, hp counters, and a TimePod. I was able 
> to double check Ralph's Digilent-based ADEV device [1] and also to 
> independently measure various frequency standards, including the actual 5065A 
> and 5071A that he used in his experiment.
> 
> For the range of tau where we overlap, his ADEV measurements closely match my 
> ADEV measurements. So that's very good news. His Digilent plot [2] and my 
> TimePod / TimeLab plot are attached.

Nice. Thank you!

BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?

> I'm sure more will come of his project over time and I hope to make 
> additional measurements using a wider variety of stable / unstable sources, 
> either down there in CA with another clock trip or up here in WA with a clone 
> of his prototype. It would be nice to further validate this wave fitting 
> technique, perhaps uncover and quantify subtle biases that depend on power 
> law noise (or ADC resolution, or sample rate, or sample size, etc.), and also 
> to explore environmental stability of the instrument.

For this, we would need a better understanding of what noise is 
mathematically and how it is affected by various components in
the signal path. But our mathematical description is lacking
at best (we only can descirbe white and 1/f^2 noise properly).


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From swperk at earthlink.net  Mon Feb 26 07:09:10 2018
From: swperk at earthlink.net (Stan)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 04:09:10 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
Message-ID: <002501d3aefa$9c6c5a00$d5450e00$@earthlink.net>

Thanks for all the suggestions! I think I'll take the conservative approach for now and just remove the battery (fortunately it has not leaked!) and run from a UPS-backed outlet. If I ever decide I want to reinstall the battery, it would be to keep the 5065A "original" and not for real backup purposes since, as has already been pointed out, an external backup is preferable for a lot of reasons.

Stan


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 07:13:41 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 04:13:41 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>

> BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?

The ADEV wiggles aren't visible with normal tau 1 s measurements. But since the TimePod can go down to tau 1 ms, when I first measure a standard I like to run at that resolution so effects like this show up. Once that's done, 1 ms resolution is overkill.

In this case it appears to be power supply noise. Attached are the ADEV, PN, and TDEV plots.

The spur at 120 Hz is massive; there's also a bit at 240 Hz; almost nothing at 60 Hz. When integrated these cause the bumps you see in the ADEV plot. It's best seen as a bump at ~4 ms in the TDEV plot.

Note the cute little spur at 137 Hz. Not sure what causes the one at ~3630 Hz.

/tvb
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From attila at kinali.ch  Mon Feb 26 09:53:21 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:53:21 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <5A923F20.7020506@yandex.com>
References: <AABPKEFBRA6TK4UA@smtpout03.dca.untd.com>
 <5A923169.1050200@yandex.com> <5A923F20.7020506@yandex.com>
Message-ID: <20180226155321.be0abe106c3748b7fff36be8@kinali.ch>

On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 23:44:16 -0500
Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:

> Given the relatively low resistances at the op-amp inputs (10k ohms), 
> the ultra-low input "bias" (leakage) current of the 6240 is simply 
> unnecessary.  Any offset due to the input currents (within the general 
> range of any of these op-amps) is insignificant compared to the op-amp's 
> offset voltage.  Thus, offset voltage, offset voltage tempco, and offset 
> voltage long-tem drift are the critical parameters (as Poul-Henning 
> pointed out).  And here, the 1012 is clearly the best of the three.  In 
> addition to having the lowest input offset spec, the 1012 has guaranteed 
> maximum specifications for these important parameters.  The 6240 (for 
> good reason) is *not even rated* for long-term stability (drift). 
> (Long-term offset stability is a particular weakness of CMOS op-amps.)

Oh.. right, I didn't think about long term behaviour. Thanks for the correction!

BTW: How about using an LTC2057 then? Its input bias current  and
GBW spec is similar to the LT1012, but its offset voltage and drift
are far superior. Or would its charge injection noise be too large
for this application?

			Attila Kinali

			

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb 26 10:00:40 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:00:40 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
Message-ID: <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>

Hi

One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird reason it
was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to send it
back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than stacked 
on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.

As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was 
somewhat odd to see. 

Bob

> On Feb 26, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?
> 
> The ADEV wiggles aren't visible with normal tau 1 s measurements. But since the TimePod can go down to tau 1 ms, when I first measure a standard I like to run at that resolution so effects like this show up. Once that's done, 1 ms resolution is overkill.
> 
> In this case it appears to be power supply noise. Attached are the ADEV, PN, and TDEV plots.
> 
> The spur at 120 Hz is massive; there's also a bit at 240 Hz; almost nothing at 60 Hz. When integrated these cause the bumps you see in the ADEV plot. It's best seen as a bump at ~4 ms in the TDEV plot.
> 
> Note the cute little spur at 137 Hz. Not sure what causes the one at ~3630 Hz.
> 
> /tvb
> <5065a-adev.png><5065a-pn.png><5065a-tdev.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From ewkehren at AOL.com  Mon Feb 26 10:20:43 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:20:43 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <20180226155321.be0abe106c3748b7fff36be8@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <mailman.11.1519658464.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

We have decided to go with the 1012 do we need to do any thing with pin 5Bert kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> Date: 2/26/18  9:53 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A 
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 23:44:16 -0500
Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com> wrote:

> Given the relatively low resistances at the op-amp inputs (10k ohms), 
> the ultra-low input "bias" (leakage) current of the 6240 is simply 
> unnecessary.  Any offset due to the input currents (within the general 
> range of any of these op-amps) is insignificant compared to the op-amp's 
> offset voltage.  Thus, offset voltage, offset voltage tempco, and offset 
> voltage long-tem drift are the critical parameters (as Poul-Henning 
> pointed out).  And here, the 1012 is clearly the best of the three.  In 
> addition to having the lowest input offset spec, the 1012 has guaranteed 
> maximum specifications for these important parameters.  The 6240 (for 
> good reason) is *not even rated* for long-term stability (drift). 
> (Long-term offset stability is a particular weakness of CMOS op-amps.)

Oh.. right, I didn't think about long term behaviour. Thanks for the correction!

BTW: How about using an LTC2057 then? Its input bias current  and
GBW spec is similar to the LT1012, but its offset voltage and drift
are far superior. Or would its charge injection noise be too large
for this application?

			Attila Kinali

			

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From cdelect at juno.com  Mon Feb 26 11:56:35 2018
From: cdelect at juno.com (cdelect at juno.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:56:35 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
Message-ID: <AABPKJRD7AEWHEJ2@smtpout02.dca.untd.com>

I agree with Bert,

I always remove the battery.

They will cause grief eventually!

Use either in UPS or the separate DC input jack on the rear.

One note, if the battery is removed and the battery charge switch is in
the position to light the front panel lamp you will degrade the stability
of the unit! Removing the bulb clears it up! Never bothered to figure out
why!

Also I usually remove a battery A2 and install two shottky diodes on the
underside of A2s chassis jack.

Non-battery units have an A2 that just has these two diodes on it.

Cheers,

Corby


From ed_palmer at sasktel.net  Mon Feb 26 13:51:39 2018
From: ed_palmer at sasktel.net (Ed Palmer)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:51:39 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts]  Replacement Backup Battery for 5065A?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1519664401.30465.time-nuts@febo.com>
References: <mailman.3.1519664401.30465.time-nuts@febo.com>
Message-ID: <5A94573B.4090502@sasktel.net>

On 2018-02-26 11:00 AM, Corby wrote:
> Also I usually remove a battery A2 and install two shottky diodes on the
> underside of A2s chassis jack.
>
> Non-battery units have an A2 that just has these two diodes on it.

On mine, I didn't bother with schottky diodes, I just used half of a 
bridge rectifier that I bolted to the chassis.  Removing the battery 
charger version of the A2 board also removed a significant amount of 
heat from the unit.  That board runs quite warm!

Another interesting point about removing the A2 board is that in 
addition to freeing up a card slot, it frees up the transformer winding 
that was used for the battery charger.  Maybe use that to build a 5V 
supply for some new add-on.  The A2 board was rated for ~25V @150 ma or 
~3.75W.  At 5V, that's 0.75A.  You'd probably have to use a switching 
supply.  Extra care would be required to make sure that the supply's 
switching noise didn't degrade the unit's performance.

Ed


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 14:20:30 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:20:30 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>

> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot

I did ten runs of various standards that were within a couple of meters of the bench; the TimePod did not move the entire time. Each standard had a different looking PN plot, so I'm pretty sure the 120 Hz spur we see is the 5065A itself, not something in the lab.

File http://leapsecond.com/tmp/2018b-Ralph-2-pn.png is attached.

Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking incandescent lamp.

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at leapsecond.com>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting


Hi

One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird reason it
was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to send it
back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than stacked 
on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.

As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was 
somewhat odd to see. 

Bob

> On Feb 26, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?
> 
> The ADEV wiggles aren't visible with normal tau 1 s measurements. But since the TimePod can go down to tau 1 ms, when I first measure a standard I like to run at that resolution so effects like this show up. Once that's done, 1 ms resolution is overkill.
> 
> In this case it appears to be power supply noise. Attached are the ADEV, PN, and TDEV plots.
> 
> The spur at 120 Hz is massive; there's also a bit at 240 Hz; almost nothing at 60 Hz. When integrated these cause the bumps you see in the ADEV plot. It's best seen as a bump at ~4 ms in the TDEV plot.
> 
> Note the cute little spur at 137 Hz. Not sure what causes the one at ~3630 Hz.
> 
> /tvb
> <5065a-adev.png><5065a-pn.png><5065a-tdev.png>

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From dk4xp at arcor.de  Mon Feb 26 14:42:10 2018
From: dk4xp at arcor.de (Gerhard Hoffmann)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:42:10 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
 <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
Message-ID: <d3acb7e2-25ad-5019-e42a-306a23953cf4@arcor.de>

Am 26.02.2018 um 20:20 schrieb Tom Van Baak:
> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking incandescent lamp.

There was a Tektronix sampler that had a few ps sampling jitter to the tune
of a blinking LED on the mainframe  :-)

Cheers, Gerhard

From kb8tq at n1k.org  Mon Feb 26 14:51:47 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:51:47 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
 <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
Message-ID: <B2B2694F-20FF-46D1-A88B-5B20DC4854AC@n1k.org>

Hi

Yet another reason to nuke the battery and the A2 board. 

It is amazing just how small a signal can mess things up at the levels involved in
a good frequency standard. The old “when in doubt, throw it out” mantra may be
a good one to keep in mind relative to a lot of add on features…. how much does
a PIC-DIV pull compared to the 1 pps section of one of these old beasts (Cs or Rb)? 

Lots to think about. 

Bob

> On Feb 26, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
> 
> I did ten runs of various standards that were within a couple of meters of the bench; the TimePod did not move the entire time. Each standard had a different looking PN plot, so I'm pretty sure the 120 Hz spur we see is the 5065A itself, not something in the lab.
> 
> File http://leapsecond.com/tmp/2018b-Ralph-2-pn.png is attached.
> 
> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking incandescent lamp.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> To: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at leapsecond.com>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
> which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird reason it
> was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to send it
> back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than stacked 
> on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.
> 
> As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
> others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
> normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was 
> somewhat odd to see. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 26, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?
>> 
>> The ADEV wiggles aren't visible with normal tau 1 s measurements. But since the TimePod can go down to tau 1 ms, when I first measure a standard I like to run at that resolution so effects like this show up. Once that's done, 1 ms resolution is overkill.
>> 
>> In this case it appears to be power supply noise. Attached are the ADEV, PN, and TDEV plots.
>> 
>> The spur at 120 Hz is massive; there's also a bit at 240 Hz; almost nothing at 60 Hz. When integrated these cause the bumps you see in the ADEV plot. It's best seen as a bump at ~4 ms in the TDEV plot.
>> 
>> Note the cute little spur at 137 Hz. Not sure what causes the one at ~3630 Hz.
>> 
>> /tvb
>> <5065a-adev.png><5065a-pn.png><5065a-tdev.png>
> 
> <2018b-Ralph-2-pn.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 15:29:27 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:29:27 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
 <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
 <B2B2694F-20FF-46D1-A88B-5B20DC4854AC@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <EF3623E84B924DF58D94D7D1AA0D4399@pc52>

> Yet another reason to nuke the battery and the A2 board. 

Yes. Then again, the effect is very minor when you look at the PN and ADEV plots. It falls into the category of "look how sensitive a TimePod is" more than "look how bad a 5065A is". And remember it's just a warning lamp, with a toggle switch to reset the blink.

> a PIC-DIV pull compared to the 1 pps section of one of these old beasts (Cs or Rb)? 

Right, a PIC divider is much lower power, but if you're driving a 50R load that's still a lot of current. I suspect this is one reason why high-end standards use 10 or 20 us wide pulses and not 50% duty cycle square waves for their 1PPS outputs. Same power but 10 us is 50,000x less energy than 0.5 s. I've stopped using squares waves for 1PPS around here.

BTW, a trick for blinking LED's -- use two of them out of phase: one that the user sees on the front panel and one that is blacked out or hidden inside. A flip-flop (Q and /Q) or even a set of inverters is all you need. The current draw thus remains constant in spite of the blinking.

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting


Hi

Yet another reason to nuke the battery and the A2 board. 

It is amazing just how small a signal can mess things up at the levels involved in
a good frequency standard. The old “when in doubt, throw it out” mantra may be
a good one to keep in mind relative to a lot of add on features…. how much does
a PIC-DIV pull compared to the 1 pps section of one of these old beasts (Cs or Rb)? 

Lots to think about. 

Bob

> On Feb 26, 2018, at 2:20 PM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
> 
> I did ten runs of various standards that were within a couple of meters of the bench; the TimePod did not move the entire time. Each standard had a different looking PN plot, so I'm pretty sure the 120 Hz spur we see is the 5065A itself, not something in the lab.
> 
> File http://leapsecond.com/tmp/2018b-Ralph-2-pn.png is attached.
> 
> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking incandescent lamp.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Bob kb8tq" <kb8tq at n1k.org>
> To: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at leapsecond.com>; "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a lot
> which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird reason it
> was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to send it
> back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than stacked 
> on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.
> 
> As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
> others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
> normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was 
> somewhat odd to see. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Feb 26, 2018, at 7:13 AM, Tom Van Baak <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> BTW: Do you know the cause of the oscillations in the 5065 vs BVA plot?
>> 
>> The ADEV wiggles aren't visible with normal tau 1 s measurements. But since the TimePod can go down to tau 1 ms, when I first measure a standard I like to run at that resolution so effects like this show up. Once that's done, 1 ms resolution is overkill.
>> 
>> In this case it appears to be power supply noise. Attached are the ADEV, PN, and TDEV plots.
>> 
>> The spur at 120 Hz is massive; there's also a bit at 240 Hz; almost nothing at 60 Hz. When integrated these cause the bumps you see in the ADEV plot. It's best seen as a bump at ~4 ms in the TDEV plot.
>> 
>> Note the cute little spur at 137 Hz. Not sure what causes the one at ~3630 Hz.
>> 
>> /tvb
>> <5065a-adev.png><5065a-pn.png><5065a-tdev.png>
> 
> <2018b-Ralph-2-pn.png>_______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From chris at chriscaudle.org  Mon Feb 26 15:59:02 2018
From: chris at chriscaudle.org (Chris Caudle)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:59:02 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <EF3623E84B924DF58D94D7D1AA0D4399@pc52>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
 <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
 <B2B2694F-20FF-46D1-A88B-5B20DC4854AC@n1k.org>
 <EF3623E84B924DF58D94D7D1AA0D4399@pc52>
Message-ID: <bbac4f574e35bd9d8765d49142f25d0a.squirrel@email.powweb.com>

On Mon, February 26, 2018 2:29 pm, Tom Van Baak wrote:
> BTW, a trick for blinking LED's -- use two of them out of phase: one that
> the user sees on the front panel and one that is blacked out or hidden
> inside. A flip-flop (Q and /Q) or even a set of inverters is all you need.
> The current draw thus remains constant in spite of the blinking.

You could also use a long-tail diff-pair, with the LED in the collector
circuit of just one side of the pair.  Only costs one extra transistor and
a few resistors and then the current draw is (close to) constant whether
the LED is on or off.

-- 
Chris Caudle



From paulswedb at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 16:23:15 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:23:15 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well all this capacitor talk has me actually looking for the 5 uf cap.
When I picked up the 5065a it didn't work. This was in the late 90s and no
manual was available at that time.
I reverse engineered the system and guess what cap was bad? The integrator.
So not being all that smart, I hooked 2 X 10 UF caps in series. Been
working like a champ for 18 years.
Not obvious of what the downside of this approach was at all.
But I went out to mouser and have to say the selection of large capacitors
really is thin for PPS and PS. I did see the one picture of a yellow cap I
think from Germany.
The question really is what is the source and part number for a good cap.
does appear that the wima caps are carried by Mouser but may have long lead
times.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 2:50 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de> wrote:

>
>
> Am 25.02.2018 um 13:46 schrieb Azelio Boriani:
>
>> The part number BFC234421475, on <http://www.wima.com.ua/BFC234421475>
>> seems to be a Philips product, 2500 available, for 49.28 UAH
>> (Ukrainian Hryvnia, that is 1.77 USD). A mysterious capacitor...
>>
> Why not go to Mouser or DK, as usual?
>
> Or to the source itself:
> <  https://www.wima.de/en/  >
>
> (Abt. an hour of driving from where I'm now).
>
> BTW last time I bought some at DK/Mouser, there was
> a pricing artefact, in that 5% was cheaper than 10%
>
> :-)  Gerhard
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/m
> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Feb 26 17:05:52 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 22:05:52 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
 <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56810.1519682752@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ at mail.gmail.com>, paul swed writes:

>I reverse engineered the system and guess what cap was bad? The integrator.
>So not being all that smart, I hooked 2 X 10 UF caps in series. Been
>working like a champ for 18 years.

That capacitor isn't nearly as important as people think.

The input signal to the integrator is continuous and jump-free and
the relevant timeconstant is sub-second.  Dielectric absorption
doesn't matter when there are no voltage jumps.

We all tune the EFC of the Xtal to set the meter to zero CONTROL
voltage, which means there is no voltage for the capacitor to leak,
so that doesn't matter either,

If you pick a capacitor with a couple of hundred volts rating, its
leakage current will be less than the air and the PCB near it anyway.

When I experimented, I could hardly find *any* property that mattered
for that capacitor, not even the exact capacitance, because the
adjustment procedue handles that.

The only thing I could provok, was that almost all capacitors I
tried were sensitive to touch.

I didn't establish if this was mechanical (and if so if it was the
capacitor or something else on the board) or if it was thermal
(capacitors have astounding tempcos).

HP tied two O-rings around the capacitor they choose, I pressume
that is a clue that they found something similar.

The biggest issue is probably that most of the relevant capacitors
are square blocks, like for instance TDK/KEMET B32774D8505K.

TDK/KEMET C4GAJUD4500AA3J could be an option, but I suspect it
is too big to fit in the existing PCB.

Either way, cheap and plenty available.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From wayne.holder at gmail.com  Mon Feb 26 17:36:00 2018
From: wayne.holder at gmail.com (Wayne Holder)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 14:36:00 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <56810.1519682752@critter.freebsd.dk>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
 <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56810.1519682752@critter.freebsd.dk>
Message-ID: <CAB+jonC9HVv9826ocWmTdTEC-mr8JJ+G-Vw_teSO4BnMO0B-dg@mail.gmail.com>

>> The only thing I could provok, was that almost all capacitors I
>> tried were sensitive to touch.

Most ceramic caps are sensitive to "micro phonics" via the piezoelectric
effect, which can translate mechanical stress into electrical noise.


https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/archives/b/precisionhub/archive/2014/12/19/stress-induced-outbursts-microphonics-in-ceramic-capacitors-part-1

Wayne


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 2:05 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk at phk.freebsd.dk>
wrote:

> --------
> In message <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ at mail.
> gmail.com>, paul swed writes:
>
> >I reverse engineered the system and guess what cap was bad? The
> integrator.
> >So not being all that smart, I hooked 2 X 10 UF caps in series. Been
> >working like a champ for 18 years.
>
> That capacitor isn't nearly as important as people think.
>
> The input signal to the integrator is continuous and jump-free and
> the relevant timeconstant is sub-second.  Dielectric absorption
> doesn't matter when there are no voltage jumps.
>
> We all tune the EFC of the Xtal to set the meter to zero CONTROL
> voltage, which means there is no voltage for the capacitor to leak,
> so that doesn't matter either,
>
> If you pick a capacitor with a couple of hundred volts rating, its
> leakage current will be less than the air and the PCB near it anyway.
>
> When I experimented, I could hardly find *any* property that mattered
> for that capacitor, not even the exact capacitance, because the
> adjustment procedue handles that.
>
> The only thing I could provok, was that almost all capacitors I
> tried were sensitive to touch.
>
> I didn't establish if this was mechanical (and if so if it was the
> capacitor or something else on the board) or if it was thermal
> (capacitors have astounding tempcos).
>
> HP tied two O-rings around the capacitor they choose, I pressume
> that is a clue that they found something similar.
>
> The biggest issue is probably that most of the relevant capacitors
> are square blocks, like for instance TDK/KEMET B32774D8505K.
>
> TDK/KEMET C4GAJUD4500AA3J could be an option, but I suspect it
> is too big to fit in the existing PCB.
>
> Either way, cheap and plenty available.
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From phk at phk.freebsd.dk  Mon Feb 26 18:20:10 2018
From: phk at phk.freebsd.dk (Poul-Henning Kamp)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 23:20:10 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAB+jonC9HVv9826ocWmTdTEC-mr8JJ+G-Vw_teSO4BnMO0B-dg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
 <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <56810.1519682752@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <CAB+jonC9HVv9826ocWmTdTEC-mr8JJ+G-Vw_teSO4BnMO0B-dg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57298.1519687210@critter.freebsd.dk>

--------
In message <CAB+jonC9HVv9826ocWmTdTEC-mr8JJ+G-Vw_teSO4BnMO0B-dg at mail.gmail.com>, Wayne Holder writes:
>>> The only thing I could provok, was that almost all capacitors I
>>> tried were sensitive to touch.
>
>Most ceramic caps are sensitive to "micro phonics" via the piezoelectric
>effect, which can translate mechanical stress into electrical noise.

Yes, and unlike plastics, their mechanical resonance is sharp and
at frequencies where microphonics matter a lot.

Even then, a 4.7uF SMD multilayer ceramic mounted with two "looped"
wires for stress-relief worked just fine.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp       | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
phk at FreeBSD.ORG         | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer       | BSD since 4.3-tahoe    
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Mon Feb 26 19:33:58 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 01:33:58 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Allan variance by sine-wave fitting
In-Reply-To: <d3acb7e2-25ad-5019-e42a-306a23953cf4@arcor.de>
References: <CAFb3=2CBx5jcKM5zPtCO1oASDqm5wTbhmmD9ZQOAMCH0OOvMAw@mail.gmail.com>
 <376B7BFDE87343BF91575F78B527C9C1@pc52>
 <20180226124709.897871ded4725527c675c3db@kinali.ch>
 <87DCD81C4C9B4BD9981E0E4B8DF462E3@pc52>
 <B5A328CB-E87B-4E49-8124-1405BA71A718@n1k.org>
 <A04BE4AD829D4A138B18F8FE59D3631D@pc52>
 <d3acb7e2-25ad-5019-e42a-306a23953cf4@arcor.de>
Message-ID: <44a6d2f7-de23-0fe7-a040-e505224c4a5c@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

On 02/26/2018 08:42 PM, Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
> Am 26.02.2018 um 20:20 schrieb Tom Van Baak:
>> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise
>> plot. What do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel
>> and reset the blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise
>> went away. Makes sense when you think of the power variations
>> associated with a blinking incandescent lamp.
> 
> There was a Tektronix sampler that had a few ps sampling jitter to the tune
> of a blinking LED on the mainframe  :-)

I was just about to comment on that. The Tek 11803 / CSA803C TDR module
has a blinking LED with "HOT" TDR pulse. It however skews the timing so
a later firmware disabled the blinking.

Sadly to say, I don't have that FW on mine CSAs

Cheers,
Magnus

From john at miles.io  Mon Feb 26 21:45:54 2018
From: john at miles.io (John Miles)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:45:54 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Assorted replies, and request for info
Message-ID: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>

Request for data from an off-list friend who is looking for info on an Ovenaire OCXO and/or the instrument it was used in:

> Could you send a post on my behalf asking if anyone else has an 
> Ovenaire 42-15 or if not, a Spectracom 8131 Frequency Standard Oscillator. 

This is from Dennis Tillman, who can be reached directly at dennis (at) ridesoft.com.

> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What
> do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the
> blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes
> sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking
> incandescent lamp.

I hadn't heard of that one, but some other examples include 1-pps crosstalk on the 10 MHz output of some of the HP GPSDOs (which I've run into myself), and the inadvertent ~5 MHz comb generator that drives the indicator LED on the HP 5370's reference clock interface PCB that Bruce Griffiths noticed several years ago.  Presumably neither of these faux pas were bad enough to be noticed by the original designers or their paying customers, but they probably would have been fixed if they had come to the attention of the people involved.  Goes to show how improved instrumentation can be a curse as well as a blessing.

Poul-Henning's observation on the 5065A integrator cap highlights the risk of erring too far in the opposite direction:

> When I experimented, I could hardly find *any* property that mattered
> for that capacitor, not even the exact capacitance, because the
> adjustment procedue handles that.

I have a feeling this is true of most of the components in that circuit.  The nice thing about an integrator is that it's also a low-pass filter.  And the nice thing about a closed loop is that it's, well, closed.

Before spending too much time arguing about whether the opamp should be replaced with an LT1012 or an AD797 or a cryocooled tunnel diode or whatever, I'd suggest replacing it with a 741 and seeing how much *worse* the performance gets.  It is easier to measure the effect of that kind of change.  If there is little or no harm in using the crappiest opamp you can find, that means that you can safely stop worrying about what the best one might be.  

> One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a
> lot which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird 
> reason it was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to 
> send it back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than 
> stacked on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.
> 
> As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
> others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
> normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was
> somewhat odd to see.

I've seen similar behavior here, not only with respect to units responding differently to 60/120 Hz magnetic interference, but also at higher offsets in the absence of an obvious coupling mechanism.  There was one case where a TimePod I was working with picked up an unstable low-level spur near 25 kHz from an LED aquarium light fixture several meters away.  Other units swapped into the same position did not show the spur at all, and I was never able to narrow down the cause with any certainty.  I don't have a good explanation for any of the above, unfortunately.

That being said, Phil Hobbs posted something on sci.electronics.design the other day that I thought was subtly insightful, even though he was just stating an obvious point.  Namely, ground loops are inherently very low impedance phenomena, often occurring in the milliohm range.  Especially when dealing with anodized aluminum hardware like the TimePod's enclosure, the difference between a test setup where all the coax shields act as a near-perfect shorted transformer turn versus one with significant loss might come down to small differences in fastener torque, or perhaps a missing star washer.  So it's possible to envision a scenario where tightening up all the proverbial loose screws actually makes a magnetically-coupled spur worse.  

Lifting a coax shield is usually not the best solution to ground loops, but Phil's offhand comment made me wonder about the effects of deliberately adding just a few ohms of series R.  It's on my list of things to look into when I have time.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC



From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Mon Feb 26 23:04:56 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
Message-ID: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>

Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:

http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ewkehren via time-nuts" <time-nuts at febo.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:05 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK


We have pictures of the guts of a M100 the file is 1.8 M off list or permission to post

Bert Kehren 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
_______________________________________________


From bill.iaxs at pobox.com  Mon Feb 26 23:21:42 2018
From: bill.iaxs at pobox.com (Bill Hawkins)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 22:21:42 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Replacement A9 boards for the HP 5065A
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024CE9002D0888E41FF27E4CEC20@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
 <5A929F9E.8020708@yandex.com>
 <CAPjwOu+XJESN4uy+F4F2T-ACnTYhcxyjNkJj6ygnFtNqZjJNnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <dbc7eb43-c46b-003e-357f-0a2ddad33f1e@arcor.de>
 <CAD2JfAjxVwO3coVTivD-Yp=XZqd78WKBDwKD0KA9fc8dq6GeOQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <155007CCF5864018A76225313326D005@system072>

Group,

After 40 years of doing PID control for industrial processes, I'm used
to an error tolerance of 10E-3. So I couldn't understand an integrator
with a 10 K resistor and a 5 mfd capacitor.

But this is time nuts, and the tolerance is more like 10E-13.

An integrator as a controller takes any deviation from zero error
voltage and moves the output in a direction that will return the error
to zero.

In this case, 10 K is the practical lower limit to the input resistor
for the desired time constant, with 5 mfd as a practical upper limit.
Any current flowing in that resistor changes the value of zero error,
which causes the output to move when the actual error is zero. This
makes the frequency wander. The current can come from the opamp bias or
capacitor leakage when the output is not zero.

Similarly, a change in the opamp zero offset causes a false error which
makes the output move when it shouldn't.

So I withdraw my comment about aluminum electrolytics, which was made
without a timenuts perspective.

Determining maximum error currents and offsets is simply a matter of
mathematics, which is left as an exercise for the student.

Regards,
Bill Hawkins


From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb 27 05:30:05 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:30:05 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
Message-ID: <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
"Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:

> Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:
> 
> http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm

For those, who would like to see the rest of M100/FRK,
I just took pictures of my FRK-L that was sitting on my
desk for way too long:

http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/

Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
else.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Tue Feb 27 05:51:39 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 05:51:39 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <mailman.12.1519728710.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Thank you Attila, I have seen many FRK`and M 100 but not one like yours. Some boards are very different and it is very difficult  to get proper documentation.Bert Kehren

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> Date: 2/27/18  5:30 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FRK 
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
"Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:

> Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:
> 
> http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm

For those, who would like to see the rest of M100/FRK,
I just took pictures of my FRK-L that was sitting on my
desk for way too long:

http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/

Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
else.

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From k8yumdoober at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 05:50:15 2018
From: k8yumdoober at gmail.com (Dana Whitlow)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 04:50:15 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Assorted replies, and request for info
In-Reply-To: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>
References: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <CADHrwpdQeDgapM=g7X7NyzzWBdmGjnvHmOJWeMSC9J7ejkE1Lg@mail.gmail.com>

In connection with ground loops, why not put "ferrite beads" on coaxial
cables in the system?

In this case where the offending frequencies would be in the 60 Hz regime
one would probably
need large toroids with multiple turns, but the approach ought to do some
real good, without
introducing the problems associated with leaving on end of a coax shield
unconnected.

Dana


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 8:45 PM, John Miles <john at miles.io> wrote:

> Request for data from an off-list friend who is looking for info on an
> Ovenaire OCXO and/or the instrument it was used in:
>
> > Could you send a post on my behalf asking if anyone else has an
> > Ovenaire 42-15 or if not, a Spectracom 8131 Frequency Standard
> Oscillator.
>
> This is from Dennis Tillman, who can be reached directly at dennis (at)
> ridesoft.com.
>
> > Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot.
> What
> > do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the
> > blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes
> > sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking
> > incandescent lamp.
>
> I hadn't heard of that one, but some other examples include 1-pps
> crosstalk on the 10 MHz output of some of the HP GPSDOs (which I've run
> into myself), and the inadvertent ~5 MHz comb generator that drives the
> indicator LED on the HP 5370's reference clock interface PCB that Bruce
> Griffiths noticed several years ago.  Presumably neither of these faux pas
> were bad enough to be noticed by the original designers or their paying
> customers, but they probably would have been fixed if they had come to the
> attention of the people involved.  Goes to show how improved
> instrumentation can be a curse as well as a blessing.
>
> Poul-Henning's observation on the 5065A integrator cap highlights the risk
> of erring too far in the opposite direction:
>
> > When I experimented, I could hardly find *any* property that mattered
> > for that capacitor, not even the exact capacitance, because the
> > adjustment procedue handles that.
>
> I have a feeling this is true of most of the components in that circuit.
> The nice thing about an integrator is that it's also a low-pass filter.
> And the nice thing about a closed loop is that it's, well, closed.
>
> Before spending too much time arguing about whether the opamp should be
> replaced with an LT1012 or an AD797 or a cryocooled tunnel diode or
> whatever, I'd suggest replacing it with a 741 and seeing how much *worse*
> the performance gets.  It is easier to measure the effect of that kind of
> change.  If there is little or no harm in using the crappiest opamp you can
> find, that means that you can safely stop worrying about what the best one
> might be.
>
> > One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly
> good
> > at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t
> matter a
> > lot which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird
> > reason it was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered
> to
> > send it back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather
> than
> > stacked on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.
> >
> > As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue.
> None of the
> > others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that
> they
> > normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops,
> it was
> > somewhat odd to see.
>
> I've seen similar behavior here, not only with respect to units responding
> differently to 60/120 Hz magnetic interference, but also at higher offsets
> in the absence of an obvious coupling mechanism.  There was one case where
> a TimePod I was working with picked up an unstable low-level spur near 25
> kHz from an LED aquarium light fixture several meters away.  Other units
> swapped into the same position did not show the spur at all, and I was
> never able to narrow down the cause with any certainty.  I don't have a
> good explanation for any of the above, unfortunately.
>
> That being said, Phil Hobbs posted something on sci.electronics.design the
> other day that I thought was subtly insightful, even though he was just
> stating an obvious point.  Namely, ground loops are inherently very low
> impedance phenomena, often occurring in the milliohm range.  Especially
> when dealing with anodized aluminum hardware like the TimePod's enclosure,
> the difference between a test setup where all the coax shields act as a
> near-perfect shorted transformer turn versus one with significant loss
> might come down to small differences in fastener torque, or perhaps a
> missing star washer.  So it's possible to envision a scenario where
> tightening up all the proverbial loose screws actually makes a
> magnetically-coupled spur worse.
>
> Lifting a coax shield is usually not the best solution to ground loops,
> but Phil's offhand comment made me wonder about the effects of deliberately
> adding just a few ohms of series R.  It's on my list of things to look into
> when I have time.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
> Miles Design LLC
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From ewkehren at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 06:06:52 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 06:06:52 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
Message-ID: <161d6f195ee-1551-c75@webjas-vaa160.srv.aolmail.net>

Thank you Tom,  for the record the pictures where taken by Juerg Koegel my partner in crime
Bert Kehren
 
In a message dated 2/26/2018 11:05:19 PM Eastern Standard Time, tvb at LeapSecond.com writes:

 
 Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:

http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm

/tvb

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "ewkehren via time-nuts" <time-nuts at febo.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:05 AM
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK


We have pictures of the guts of a M100 the file is 1.8 M off list or permission to post

Bert Kehren 

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From ewkehren at aol.com  Tue Feb 27 06:58:04 2018
From: ewkehren at aol.com (ew)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 06:58:04 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Assorted replies, and request for info
In-Reply-To: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>
References: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>
Message-ID: <161d720780e-157d-1473@webjas-vab130.srv.aolmail.net>

Allow me to make some follow on comments on John’s post. Much of the equipment we use was never intended for what we use it for and developed at a time that certain parameters where not tested, and equipment now available for our efforts is getting rare.
We are working on 1 E-13 frequency at one second, performance the big boys practiced forty years ago with tens of million budgets and lab environment we can only dream of.
Last year we did some work with a Tbolt and M100 using 40 000 seconds and 7 E-17 per uV. This was done with the support of Warren that I updated regularly. One set of data he responded on with: you are getting 1E-13 but what kind of Lab, 0.1 C over two weeks? The answer Juerg,s basement Lab in Switzerland while every body was on vacation. All critical tests are run over night.
What we now spend extensive time on is AC power. I have not seen much on time-nuts on this subject. Latest effort replacing vacuum fluorescents with LED some thing I have not found in the US.
On A9, we have completed two boards one with the LT1793 and one with the LT1021 ready to be ordered today. With the low cost of boards, today will lay out a board with a 741 and plan to do an actual test once we have the boards. Will talk to Corby about it today, he is the only one that can do the test.
 
In a message dated 2/26/2018 9:46:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, john at miles.io writes:

 
 Request for data from an off-list friend who is looking for info on an Ovenaire OCXO and/or the instrument it was used in:

> Could you send a post on my behalf asking if anyone else has an 
> Ovenaire 42-15 or if not, a Spectracom 8131 Frequency Standard Oscillator. 

This is from Dennis Tillman, who can be reached directly at dennis (at) ridesoft.com.

> Fun fact -- there's a wide spur at ~2 Hz on the 5065A phase noise plot. What
> do you think that is? On a hunch I opened the front panel and reset the
> blinking amber battery alarm lamp, and voila, that noise went away. Makes
> sense when you think of the power variations associated with a blinking
> incandescent lamp.

I hadn't heard of that one, but some other examples include 1-pps crosstalk on the 10 MHz output of some of the HP GPSDOs (which I've run into myself), and the inadvertent ~5 MHz comb generator that drives the indicator LED on the HP 5370's reference clock interface PCB that Bruce Griffiths noticed several years ago. Presumably neither of these faux pas were bad enough to be noticed by the original designers or their paying customers, but they probably would have been fixed if they had come to the attention of the people involved. Goes to show how improved instrumentation can be a curse as well as a blessing.

Poul-Henning's observation on the 5065A integrator cap highlights the risk of erring too far in the opposite direction:

> When I experimented, I could hardly find *any* property that mattered
> for that capacitor, not even the exact capacitance, because the
> adjustment procedue handles that.

I have a feeling this is true of most of the components in that circuit. The nice thing about an integrator is that it's also a low-pass filter. And the nice thing about a closed loop is that it's, well, closed.

Before spending too much time arguing about whether the opamp should be replaced with an LT1012 or an AD797 or a cryocooled tunnel diode or whatever, I'd suggest replacing it with a 741 and seeing how much *worse* the performance gets. It is easier to measure the effect of that kind of change. If there is little or no harm in using the crappiest opamp you can find, that means that you can safely stop worrying about what the best one might be. 

> One of the TimePods that I had access to in the past was particularly good
> at telling you it was sitting on top of a power transformer. It didn’t matter a
> lot which instrument the power transformer was in. For some weird 
> reason it was a good magnetometer at line frequencies. I never bothered to 
> send it back for analysis. Simply moving it onto the bench top (rather than 
> stacked on top of this or that) would take care of the issue.
> 
> As far as I could tell, it was just the one unit that had the issue. None of the
> others in the fleet of TimePods seemed to behave this way. Given that they
> normally are very good at rejecting all sorts of crud and ground loops, it was
> somewhat odd to see.

I've seen similar behavior here, not only with respect to units responding differently to 60/120 Hz magnetic interference, but also at higher offsets in the absence of an obvious coupling mechanism. There was one case where a TimePod I was working with picked up an unstable low-level spur near 25 kHz from an LED aquarium light fixture several meters away. Other units swapped into the same position did not show the spur at all, and I was never able to narrow down the cause with any certainty. I don't have a good explanation for any of the above, unfortunately.

That being said, Phil Hobbs posted something on sci.electronics.design the other day that I thought was subtly insightful, even though he was just stating an obvious point. Namely, ground loops are inherently very low impedance phenomena, often occurring in the milliohm range. Especially when dealing with anodized aluminum hardware like the TimePod's enclosure, the difference between a test setup where all the coax shields act as a near-perfect shorted transformer turn versus one with significant loss might come down to small differences in fastener torque, or perhaps a missing star washer. So it's possible to envision a scenario where tightening up all the proverbial loose screws actually makes a magnetically-coupled spur worse. 

Lifting a coax shield is usually not the best solution to ground loops, but Phil's offhand comment made me wonder about the effects of deliberately adding just a few ohms of series R. It's on my list of things to look into when I have time.

-- john, KE5FX
Miles Design LLC


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From kb8tq at n1k.org  Tue Feb 27 09:01:31 2018
From: kb8tq at n1k.org (Bob kb8tq)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:01:31 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
 <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>

Hi

Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that 
your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came 
through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look 
like rational date codes …).

Bob

> On Feb 27, 2018, at 5:30 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
> "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:
>> 
>> http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm
> 
> For those, who would like to see the rest of M100/FRK,
> I just took pictures of my FRK-L that was sitting on my
> desk for way too long:
> 
> http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/
> 
> Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
> I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
> require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
> else.
> 
> 			Attila Kinali
> 
> -- 
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
> use without that foundation.
>                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.


From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 09:26:49 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:26:49 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
 <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
 <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjVKqo-hhqkaUn5k48yMpWWZUb0Qv9cnmf9Bf8QBLvXmw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the pictures.
Curious on the rb lamp.
There seem to be 2 pins from the side. Is that a lamp start igniter?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that
> your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came
> through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look
> like rational date codes …).
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 5:30 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
> > "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:
> >>
> >> http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm
> >
> > For those, who would like to see the rest of M100/FRK,
> > I just took pictures of my FRK-L that was sitting on my
> > desk for way too long:
> >
> > http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/
> >
> > Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
> > I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
> > require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
> > else.
> >
> >                       Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> >                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Tue Feb 27 10:52:08 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:52:08 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjVKqo-hhqkaUn5k48yMpWWZUb0Qv9cnmf9Bf8QBLvXmw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.13.1519746744.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

Which one are you talking aboutBert Kehren


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> Date: 2/27/18  9:26 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FRK 
Thanks for the pictures.
Curious on the rb lamp.
There seem to be 2 pins from the side. Is that a lamp start igniter?
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that
> your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came
> through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look
> like rational date codes …).
>
> Bob
>
> > On Feb 27, 2018, at 5:30 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 20:04:56 -0800
> > "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Bert's M100 Rb teardown photos are now here:
> >>
> >> http://leapsecond.com/bert/m100.htm
> >
> > For those, who would like to see the rest of M100/FRK,
> > I just took pictures of my FRK-L that was sitting on my
> > desk for way too long:
> >
> > http://time.kinali.ch/Efratom_FRK-L/
> >
> > Yes, there are only the pictures of the four PCBs from outside.
> > I didn't want to take the FRK further appart, as that would
> > require a soldering iron, and I really should be doing something
> > else.
> >
> >                       Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> >                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb 27 11:21:23 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 17:21:23 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
 <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
 <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <20180227172123.a0ab527fcfdbcade173d5b14@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:01:31 -0500
Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that 
> your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came 
> through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look 
> like rational date codes …).

Sorry, I didn't take much care when taking the pictures.
I can do better ones later.

But yes, the board has definitely an 80s vibe. The whole construction
is different then what I am used to from 80s electronics, though.
But I guess that's because it was designed and manufactured for
hi-rel applications. 

			Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb 27 11:30:42 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 17:30:42 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] Assorted replies, and request for info
In-Reply-To: <161d720780e-157d-1473@webjas-vab130.srv.aolmail.net>
References: <017101d3af75$173e9c50$45bbd4f0$@miles.io>
 <161d720780e-157d-1473@webjas-vab130.srv.aolmail.net>
Message-ID: <20180227173042.30b08b4c7a703783bb0464f0@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 06:58:04 -0500
ew via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> Last year we did some work with a Tbolt and M100 using 40 000 seconds
> and 7 E-17 per uV. This was done with the support of Warren that I updated
> regularly. One set of data he responded on with: you are getting 1E-13 but
> what kind of Lab, 0.1 C over two weeks? The answer Juerg,s basement Lab in
> Switzerland while every body was on vacation. All critical tests are run
> over night.

In case you wonder what kind of basement this is, think of a German
style single-family home. Then add at +1 for sturdyness.. maybe even +2
and you are at how Swiss build their homes. Basements in Switzerland
are how other countries build their bunkers: Thick concrete walls.
Together with being underground (or semi-underground as in Jürg's case)
gives a very decent thermal mass and isolation. Having more than 5°C
temperature variation over a year in an (unheated) basement is unusual
and usually means there is something wrong with the building.

> What we now spend extensive time on is AC power. I have not seen much on time-
> nuts on this subject. Latest effort replacing vacuum fluorescents with LED 
> some thing I have not found in the US.

Be carefull with LED flourescent lamp replacements. You will replace
the 50/60Hz buzz with a 10-500kHz buzz that also tends to wander around
with time and temperature.

If you really want to have a quite light source, you have to build your
own LED lights, with properly filtered current sources. Nothing difficult,
but you have to design it properly because you are dealing with mains power.


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From wpxs472 at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 09:01:12 2018
From: wpxs472 at gmail.com (John Green)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 08:01:12 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
Message-ID: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>

I need the part number of the connector that the Motorola Oncore series GPS
receiver plugs into.  Does anyone have that info at hand?
Thanks in advance.

From msa at latt.net  Tue Feb 27 12:13:02 2018
From: msa at latt.net (Majdi S. Abbas)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 12:13:02 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20180227171302.GA21496@puck.nether.net>

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 08:01:12AM -0600, John Green wrote:
> I need the part number of the connector that the Motorola Oncore series GPS
> receiver plugs into.  Does anyone have that info at hand?

	Which Oncore?  The M12+ and the earlier ones are different.
Early receivers used a standard dual row 0.1" (2.54mm) pitch for 
power and data, and an MCX antenna connector.  

	Later receivers used a 1.27mm pitch (0.050") 2x5pin header
with (from memory) the same pinout.

	You should be able to search on pitch, row and pin count on
your distributors website and find a variety of manufacturers.  
There's nothing special about these connectors.

	And while you're ordering them, Trimble went to a 2x4 pin
2mm / 0.079" connector.  If you're going to play with a Resolution T
SMT module or something along those lines down the road, you might
as well order that up, too.

	--msa

From w9gb at icloud.com  Tue Feb 27 12:58:18 2018
From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 11:58:18 -0600
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
In-Reply-To: <BD432BE7-D7B4-4D3A-801B-600B7FC3DA55@icloud.com>
References: <BD432BE7-D7B4-4D3A-801B-600B7FC3DA55@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <228E3BDE-0F4F-44AA-85CE-1E2AD4CA9FF5@icloud.com>

Some manufacturers, of 2x5 headers are:
Amphenol/FCI, Samtec, Harwin, Sullins, Molex, MillMax, Hirose, etc.

One example:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/amphenol-fci/87606-305LF/609-4813-ND/1524453

Numerous power/data interface boards have been developed over past 20 years.

2012 DIY Blog for Oncore interface board
http://doschman.blogspot.com/2012/11/motorola-oncore-ut-interface-and-pps.html

greg, w9gb

Sent from iPad Air

> On Feb 27, 2018, at 11:31 AM, Gregory Beat <w9gb at icloud.com> wrote:
> 
> TAPR : Motorola Oncore receiver product page
> http://www.tapr.org/gps_oncorevp.html
> 
> Data/Power Connector: 
> 10-pin (2x5) unshrouded header on 0.100" centers.
> ** Readily available connector widely used in PC boards (and computer motherboards).**
> 
> RF Connector (Antenna):
> Straight or Right Angle MCX (also referenced as OCX).
> This connection has +5 VDC present for proper L1 GPS antenna.
> DO NOT Short or use with GPS antennas not rated to handle +5 VDC.
> Some early 3.3 VDC antenna models were not tolerant of higher voltage (Read specs).
> 
> w9gb
> 
> Sent from iPad Air

From pete at petelancashire.com  Tue Feb 27 13:00:46 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 10:00:46 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
In-Reply-To: <20180227171302.GA21496@puck.nether.net>
References: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20180227171302.GA21496@puck.nether.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u-43dPYcSoLqrA71kW3zHVej1voa4gKy0Me2WbGxnsamA@mail.gmail.com>

Magdi,

Excellent summery !!!!

-pete

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Majdi S. Abbas <msa at latt.net> wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 08:01:12AM -0600, John Green wrote:
> > I need the part number of the connector that the Motorola Oncore series
> GPS
> > receiver plugs into.  Does anyone have that info at hand?
>
>         Which Oncore?  The M12+ and the earlier ones are different.
> Early receivers used a standard dual row 0.1" (2.54mm) pitch for
> power and data, and an MCX antenna connector.
>
>         Later receivers used a 1.27mm pitch (0.050") 2x5pin header
> with (from memory) the same pinout.
>
>         You should be able to search on pitch, row and pin count on
> your distributors website and find a variety of manufacturers.
> There's nothing special about these connectors.
>
>         And while you're ordering them, Trimble went to a 2x4 pin
> 2mm / 0.079" connector.  If you're going to play with a Resolution T
> SMT module or something along those lines down the road, you might
> as well order that up, too.
>
>         --msa
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From holrum at hotmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:33:29 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 18:33:29 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024A7404F4D61C78055FD28CEC00@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

I ordered mine from China on Ebay.   50 of them were around $5, shipped.  Adafruit sells a ribbon cable with female connectors on each end for around $3 each.

I also got 2mm 2x5 and 2x4 connectors... both male and female.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:45:53 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:45:53 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <20180227172123.a0ab527fcfdbcade173d5b14@kinali.ch>
References: <CC94713424FC4433ACB1F1070E0E7C3A@pc52>
 <20180227113005.051dcee3190ced81f1546558@kinali.ch>
 <6BA9A05A-3F27-4B3D-B6AE-219D3EBC3C2A@n1k.org>
 <20180227172123.a0ab527fcfdbcade173d5b14@kinali.ch>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAjQZyz3Fr-jk42q3DDeQ5rLLxn4G3uXnMM+i6FG-cV_YQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bert what I assume is the FRK lamp. it has a few wires and then 2 pins out
of the side.
Unless those are for mounting the lamp.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:01:31 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
> > Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that
> > your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came
> > through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look
> > like rational date codes …).
>
> Sorry, I didn't take much care when taking the pictures.
> I can do better ones later.
>
> But yes, the board has definitely an 80s vibe. The whole construction
> is different then what I am used to from 80s electronics, though.
> But I guess that's because it was designed and manufactured for
> hi-rel applications.
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From ewkehren at AOL.com  Tue Feb 27 13:53:36 2018
From: ewkehren at AOL.com (ewkehren)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:53:36 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <CAD2JfAjQZyz3Fr-jk42q3DDeQ5rLLxn4G3uXnMM+i6FG-cV_YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.14.1519757628.24940.time-nuts@febo.com>

PaulI have never seen a FRK or M 100 that did not have a screw iin lamp but Attila`s unit looks like nothing I have seen before,  I am not a Corby but over time 20 units have passed through my hands      
Bert


Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
-------- Original message --------From: paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> Date: 2/27/18  1:45 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FRK 
Bert what I assume is the FRK lamp. it has a few wires and then 2 pins out
of the side.
Unless those are for mounting the lamp.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:

> On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:01:31 -0500
> Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>
> > Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that
> > your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came
> > through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look
> > like rational date codes …).
>
> Sorry, I didn't take much care when taking the pictures.
> I can do better ones later.
>
> But yes, the board has definitely an 80s vibe. The whole construction
> is different then what I am used to from 80s electronics, though.
> But I guess that's because it was designed and manufactured for
> hi-rel applications.
>
>                         Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

From paulswedb at gmail.com  Tue Feb 27 13:59:22 2018
From: paulswedb at gmail.com (paul swed)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:59:22 -0500
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <5a95a954.0153650a.a08b5.633fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
References: <CAD2JfAjQZyz3Fr-jk42q3DDeQ5rLLxn4G3uXnMM+i6FG-cV_YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <5a95a954.0153650a.a08b5.633fSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAD2JfAiHja8U3+fn8NZC707=acj5g8nydpdWQTC7wUWQasc_yQ@mail.gmail.com>

Bert
OK it did look unusual.
Regards

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:53 PM, ewkehren via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com>
wrote:

> PaulI have never seen a FRK or M 100 that did not have a screw iin lamp
> but Attila`s unit looks like nothing I have seen before,  I am not a Corby
> but over time 20 units have passed through my hands
> Bert
>
>
> Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
> -------- Original message --------From: paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> Date: 2/27/18  1:45 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: Discussion of precise time and
> frequency measurement <time-nuts at febo.com> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FRK
> Bert what I assume is the FRK lamp. it has a few wires and then 2 pins out
> of the side.
> Unless those are for mounting the lamp.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 11:21 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 09:01:31 -0500
> > Bob kb8tq <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >
> > > Judging from the date codes on some of the parts, I’d guess that
> > > your FRL-L is from 1982. I’m only looking at a few parts that came
> > > through well enough in the picture to read (and that have what look
> > > like rational date codes …).
> >
> > Sorry, I didn't take much care when taking the pictures.
> > I can do better ones later.
> >
> > But yes, the board has definitely an 80s vibe. The whole construction
> > is different then what I am used to from 80s electronics, though.
> > But I guess that's because it was designed and manufactured for
> > hi-rel applications.
> >
> >                         Attila Kinali
> >
> > --
> > It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> > the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> > use without that foundation.
> >                  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> > mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From art at synergy-gps.com  Tue Feb 27 14:29:36 2018
From: art at synergy-gps.com (Art Sepin)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 19:29:36 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.
In-Reply-To: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGRb8tLrH70Nk3F9TuXFDn3ketKtepqo3+Pff=XPVwX1d0YORQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BY2PR0101MB0872DE594169DF052DC84206F6C00@BY2PR0101MB0872.prod.exchangelabs.com>

The UT+ 10 pin AMP connector part number is listed in section 3 of the UT+\GT+ User's Guide Section 3 on page 3.2 here: 
http://www.synergy-gps.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=35&Itemid=60

Motorola did not document I/O connector detail in the M12+ User's Guide except to say: " Straight, 0.050" [1.27mm] Pitch, 10 Pin Data Header." So, Randy Warner produced a short App-Note on the subject back in 2005. It's available here:
http://www.synergy-gps.com/images/stories/ShopTalk/m12+%20and%20m12m%20connector%20options%20b.pdf

At Sepin



-----Original Message-----
From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of John Green
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 6:01 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Need Oncore connector info.

I need the part number of the connector that the Motorola Oncore series GPS receiver plugs into.  Does anyone have that info at hand?
Thanks in advance.
_______________________________________________
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.febo.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftime-nuts&data=01%7C01%7Cart%40synergy-gps.com%7Cd3e7735937774e5ed92c08d57e010c8d%7Cc81f9fdec0e04d8c95779afaa0cad9ed%7C1&sdata=c9fWe6ltxETa8xTjYRkfaeHfNbbkPOE0FkUKBlN97TA%3D&reserved=0
and follow the instructions there.

From attila at kinali.ch  Tue Feb 27 14:38:16 2018
From: attila at kinali.ch (Attila Kinali)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 20:38:16 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] FRK
In-Reply-To: <201802271854.w1RIsEXB025731-w1RIsEXD025731@mx.dogan.ch>
References: <CAD2JfAjQZyz3Fr-jk42q3DDeQ5rLLxn4G3uXnMM+i6FG-cV_YQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <201802271854.w1RIsEXB025731-w1RIsEXD025731@mx.dogan.ch>
Message-ID: <20180227203816.1768590052c29ea21885ee15@kinali.ch>

On Tue, 27 Feb 2018 13:53:36 -0500
ewkehren via time-nuts <time-nuts at febo.com> wrote:

> I have never seen a FRK or M 100 that did not have a screw iin lamp but 
> Attila`s unit looks like nothing I have seen before,  I am not a Corby but 
> over time 20 units have passed through my hands  

My lamp is beneath the base plate, which I didn't take a photograph
of, because you don't see anything but some foam that I didn't want
to remove, out of fear it would just crumble in my hands.
From what I can tell, the design is close to, but not exactly
as described in the FRK-L manual on Didier's site.


			Attila Kinali
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
                 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neil Stephenson

From magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org  Tue Feb 27 19:05:46 2018
From: magnus at rubidium.dyndns.org (Magnus Danielson)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 01:05:46 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] LED instead of discharge lamp for Rb vapor cell
 standards
In-Reply-To: <2C856535-080F-435C-98F9-76470DF27F8A@n1k.org>
References: <20180221184928.1c9b4c3a4d2e762970b5b181@kinali.ch>
 <84940.1519236617@critter.freebsd.dk>
 <20180222142236.bcd4a971e60724ce5a8bfc60@kinali.ch>
 <2C856535-080F-435C-98F9-76470DF27F8A@n1k.org>
Message-ID: <b8f9cfa1-7689-fc50-a7d5-46e80c1e8aeb@rubidium.dyndns.org>

Hi,

On 02/22/2018 02:53 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
> 
>> On Feb 22, 2018, at 8:22 AM, Attila Kinali <attila at kinali.ch> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:10:17 +0000
>> "Poul-Henning Kamp" <phk at phk.freebsd.dk> wrote:
>>
>>>> So the Rb85 "notch" filter might not get rid of all the unwanted light
>>>> and some of this might depopulate the excited state of the Rb87
>>>> that are in the RF cavity.
>>>
>>> I have a hard time seeing how you can not get worse S/N that way.
>>
>>
>> Well, the question is how much? Keep in mind that an Rb lamp is
>> anything but a clean light source. 
> 
> The point is that it’s clean where it matters. It does not dump a bunch of
> energy into the transitions that you want to avoid.

780 nm vs 795 nm if I recall correctly. A dash of energy isn't too
critical, but it will de-pump the state and you will suffer with
somewhat worse S/N. For a rubidiumlamp the two "lines" are about the
same strength and fairly wide.

The one thing to care about is polarization, since that will be a
pulling through AC Stark so a quarter-wave window should be used.

Servo the LED to the detected lamp response should help with stabilization.

Cheers,
Magnus

From sandeenpa at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 21:39:59 2018
From: sandeenpa at yahoo.com (Perry Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 02:39:59 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A for ship
References: <2056668377.7380914.1519785599132.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2056668377.7380914.1519785599132@mail.yahoo.com>

List,
I have a 117 receiver that I never got round-to-it.
The tag on the unit sayes one tube is weak.  I have at least one extra tube (6CW4 IIRC) and more likely two.
It's avaiable for shipping from 92220.
If interested please send an ORIGINAL email off list.
Regards,
Perrier

From sandeenpa at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 21:51:48 2018
From: sandeenpa at yahoo.com (Perry Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 02:51:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 107BR FS
References: <835785188.7386669.1519786308394.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <835785188.7386669.1519786308394@mail.yahoo.com>

List,
I bought the HP 107BR from ebay.  It arrived very well packed and is as new on the inside and 9.5/10 on the exterior.  It requires a special A/N connector for the AC power.
I also bought the Artek CD and D/L rhe manual from the K4OOB site.  I discovered that my model is of a later revision than the manuals I found.  On ther ealier models there are pots for doing some adjustment of the inner and outer oven.  Everything else looks the same as the earlier models.
Asking $475 plus shipping from 92220. For the buyer I will upfront the shipping cost (FedEx) and then settle up later.
If interested, please generate an ORIGINAL email other wise it will come as the current TN post.
Regards,
Perrier

From alexpcs at ieee.org  Tue Feb 27 21:54:05 2018
From: alexpcs at ieee.org (Alexander Pummer)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2018 18:54:05 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A for ship
In-Reply-To: <2056668377.7380914.1519785599132@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <2056668377.7380914.1519785599132.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2056668377.7380914.1519785599132@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <23377d3d-9c29-ea7c-d773-55c12d19fbc1@ieee.org>

Hi Perrier,

do you have the antenna for it too?

73

KJ6UHN

Alex


On 2/27/2018 6:39 PM, Perry Sandeen via time-nuts wrote:
> List,
> I have a 117 receiver that I never got round-to-it.
> The tag on the unit sayes one tube is weak.  I have at least one extra tube (6CW4 IIRC) and more likely two.
> It's avaiable for shipping from 92220.
> If interested please send an ORIGINAL email off list.
> Regards,
> Perrier
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
> http://www.avg.com
>


From sandeenpa at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 27 21:55:14 2018
From: sandeenpa at yahoo.com (Perry Sandeen)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 02:55:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 117A spoken for
References: <665443370.7410021.1519786514975.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <665443370.7410021.1519786514975@mail.yahoo.com>

Regards,
Perrier

From timeok at timeok.it  Wed Feb 28 02:08:22 2018
From: timeok at timeok.it (timeok at timeok.it)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 08:08:22 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] HP 107BR FS
In-Reply-To: <835785188.7386669.1519786308394@mail.yahoo.com>
References: =?iso-8859-1?q?=3C835785188=2E7386669=2E1519786308394=2Eref=40mail=2E?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?yahoo=2Ecom=3E_=3C835785188=2E7386669=2E1519786308394?=
 =?iso-8859-1?q?=40mail=2Eyahoo=2Ecom=3E?=
Message-ID: <P4UMHY$B10B3F4D4BACC4B4C118D6E57B5CCED9@timeok.it>


   Perrier pse can you give your email to have a direct contact?
   Luciano
   timeok at timeok.it


   Da "time-nuts" time-nuts-bounces at febo.com
   A "time-nuts at febo.com" time-nuts at febo.com
   Cc
   Data Wed, 28 Feb 2018 02:51:48 +0000 (UTC)
   Oggetto [time-nuts] HP 107BR FS
   List,
   I bought the HP 107BR from ebay.  It arrived very well packed and is as new on the inside and 9.5/10 on the exterior.  It requires a special A/N connector for the AC power.
   I also bought the Artek CD and D/L rhe manual from the K4OOB site.  I discovered that my model is of a later revision than the manuals I found.  On ther ealier models there are pots for doing some adjustment of the inner and outer oven.  Everything else looks the same as the earlier models.
   Asking $475 plus shipping from 92220. For the buyer I will upfront the shipping cost (FedEx) and then settle up later.
   If interested, please generate an ORIGINAL email other wise it will come as the current TN post.
   Regards,
   Perrier
   _______________________________________________
   time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
   To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
   and follow the instructions there.

From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 28 12:22:01 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 09:22:01 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Time nut over from the old days
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u_b+jyJeo_ydVnePzCxuqpJFM8UBsT58AxuOiMGCTPcPQ@mail.gmail.com>

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gIw4P1RQHPk2t4K33

From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Wed Feb 28 13:47:32 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 19:47:32 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
Message-ID: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>

Hello fellow timenuts,

for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical 
informations.
I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an 
interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine. 
Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8 
Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the 
trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can 
be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is 
expectable?

kind regards,

Arnold
-------------- next part --------------
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From jmfranke at cox.net  Wed Feb 28 13:53:53 2018
From: jmfranke at cox.net (John Franke)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 13:53:53 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [time-nuts] Time nut over from the old days
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u_b+jyJeo_ydVnePzCxuqpJFM8UBsT58AxuOiMGCTPcPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u_b+jyJeo_ydVnePzCxuqpJFM8UBsT58AxuOiMGCTPcPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1126955469.684.1519844033146@myemail.cox.net>

I still use them, both the Bliley and James Knights versions. Especially like them for 100 KC crystals.

John Franke
WA4WDL

> On February 28, 2018 at 12:22 PM Pete Lancashire <pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/gIw4P1RQHPk2t4K33
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From actast at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 13:55:30 2018
From: actast at hotmail.com (Tom Knox)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:55:30 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <SN1PR16MB065415CC6264D979F8CD5D35DFC70@SN1PR16MB0654.namprd16.prod.outlook.com>

Hi Arnold;

If you compare the 10MHz to another standard it will most likely show the quartz is in free run. Since quartz acts as a fly wheel for the rubidium the output would look good from all other aspects (Amplitude and Spectral Purity). So it appear to me you are experiencing an issue with the Rubidium Section.

I hope that helps.

Cheer;

Thomas Knox



________________________________
From: time-nuts <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> on behalf of Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 11:47 AM
To: time-nuts at febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed

Hello fellow timenuts,

for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
informations.
I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
expectable?

kind regards,

Arnold

From pete at petelancashire.com  Wed Feb 28 14:45:31 2018
From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 11:45:31 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] Time nut over from the old days
In-Reply-To: <1126955469.684.1519844033146@myemail.cox.net>
References: <CAA-F0u_b+jyJeo_ydVnePzCxuqpJFM8UBsT58AxuOiMGCTPcPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1126955469.684.1519844033146@myemail.cox.net>
Message-ID: <CAA-F0u9b_VBJKWA6pcbgC214PBL+Tz9s=7BNaUhPAxdrnx5L=Q@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone wants it, he or she that comes up with the coolest reason can
have it. It rattles so I will take a look inside and post what I find

-pete

On Feb 28, 2018 10:54 AM, "John Franke" <jmfranke at cox.net> wrote:

> I still use them, both the Bliley and James Knights versions. Especially
> like them for 100 KC crystals.
>
> John Franke
> WA4WDL
>
> > On February 28, 2018 at 12:22 PM Pete Lancashire <
> pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/gIw4P1RQHPk2t4K33
> > _______________________________________________
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/
> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>

From michaeljwouters at gmail.com  Wed Feb 28 15:02:20 2018
From: michaeljwouters at gmail.com (Michael Wouters)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 20:02:20 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello Arnold,

A frequency offset of a part in 10E-11 still sounds healthy to me. I wonder
whether there is some kind of electronic problem?
I have run 40 or so PRs10s and the lamp is the usual bit that dies.
If you hook up a computer to the RS232 port, there are lots of diagnostics
available.

Cheers
Michael

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 at 5:47 am, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> wrote:

> Hello fellow timenuts,
>
> for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
> informations.
> I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
> interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
> Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
> The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
> Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
> trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
> In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
> Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
> be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
> expectable?
>
> kind regards,
>
> Arnold
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Wed Feb 28 16:14:48 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 22:14:48 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>

Hello Michael and Tom, thanks for the quick reaction!

Of course I did already think that the rubidium cell doesn't work any 
more, but then I was astonished after more than 1 hour running how 
precise the output frequency is and I could not see a drift beyond the 
natural noise/ fluctuations which I can see as well with Tr. 
Thundelbolt. I did not yet look deeper e.g. observing the longtime 
behaviour nor did I open the box (yet), anyway I don't know much about 
the electronic internals.
I have running the RbMon and looked to the data list which I have 
annexed. It doesn't explain much for me therefore I am asking for help 
and support to find possible solutions, there are so much excellent 
experts out here.
I am worried that in fact the Rb capsule went over the Jordan ... 
perhaps it can be revitalized but I have no experience with it.
I doupt a bit the lamp heater control value etc., ad5 to ad9.
What is the range ... ? How shall one understand these and other values?
But finally, how can one improve the situation?

I am open for all good hints, instructions and ideas! (I am sure that 
there are other timenuts also interested ;-)  )

many thanks in advance

Arnold

Am 28.02.2018 um 21:02 schrieb Michael Wouters:
> Hello Arnold,
> 
> A frequency offset of a part in 10E-11 still sounds healthy to me. I wonder
> whether there is some kind of electronic problem?
> I have run 40 or so PRs10s and the lamp is the usual bit that dies.
> If you hook up a computer to the RS232 port, there are lots of diagnostics
> available.
> 
> Cheers
> Michael
> 
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 at 5:47 am, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> wrote:
> 
>> Hello fellow timenuts,
>>
>> for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
>> informations.
>> I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
>> interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
>> Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
>> The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
>> Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
>> trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
>> In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
>> Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
>> be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
>> expectable?
>>
>> kind regards,
>>
>> Arnold
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Wed Feb 28 16:51:34 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 22:51:34 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <7c3b844e-64e3-2f25-8ad8-f20f30bd03c5@gmx.de>

As I have the impression that my very small data pdf was not 
transferred, I add therefore this explanatory data again but in open 
document format odt with 10 kB. Hopefully this will pass now.

Arnold

Am 28.02.2018 um 22:14 schrieb Arnold Tibus:
> Hello Michael and Tom, thanks for the quick reaction!
> 
> Of course I did already think that the rubidium cell doesn't work any 
> more, but then I was astonished after more than 1 hour running how 
> precise the output frequency is and I could not see a drift beyond the 
> natural noise/ fluctuations which I can see as well with Tr. 
> Thundelbolt. I did not yet look deeper e.g. observing the longtime 
> behaviour nor did I open the box (yet), anyway I don't know much about 
> the electronic internals.
> I have running the RbMon and looked to the data list which I have 
> annexed. It doesn't explain much for me therefore I am asking for help 
> and support to find possible solutions, there are so much excellent 
> experts out here.
> I am worried that in fact the Rb capsule went over the Jordan ... 
> perhaps it can be revitalized but I have no experience with it.
> I doupt a bit the lamp heater control value etc., ad5 to ad9.
> What is the range ... ? How shall one understand these and other values?
> But finally, how can one improve the situation?
> 
> I am open for all good hints, instructions and ideas! (I am sure that 
> there are other timenuts also interested ;-)  )
> 
> many thanks in advance
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Am 28.02.2018 um 21:02 schrieb Michael Wouters:
>> Hello Arnold,
>>
>> A frequency offset of a part in 10E-11 still sounds healthy to me. I 
>> wonder
>> whether there is some kind of electronic problem?
>> I have run 40 or so PRs10s and the lamp is the usual bit that dies.
>> If you hook up a computer to the RS232 port, there are lots of 
>> diagnostics
>> available.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Michael
>>
>> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 at 5:47 am, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello fellow timenuts,
>>>
>>> for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
>>> informations.
>>> I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
>>> interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
>>> Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
>>> The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
>>> Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
>>> trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
>>> In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
>>> Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
>>> be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
>>> expectable?
>>>
>>> kind regards,
>>>
>>> Arnold
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

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From peter at radig.de  Wed Feb 28 16:25:43 2018
From: peter at radig.de (Peter Radig)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 21:25:43 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <AM4PR10MB008296F5611E6CA0DE48CE00DAC70@AM4PR10MB0082.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>

Arnold,



This is my old PRS-10 after it kicked the bucket (two weeks after an SRS engineer predicted that it would go this way).

[Machine generated alternative text: Factory Settings  Analog Output Values  Ipps Control  sd0  sdl  sd2  sd3  sd4  sd5  sd8  sd7  R  N  A  SF  MO  PH  FC  149  128  255  150  178  130  100  185  8293  3537  4  -813  1440  2737  2579  o  7  24  2117.01  -1.0  Step Rec. Diode  Delay Value  Fet Voltage Set  Lamp Temp. Set  Crystal T emp. Set  Cell Temp. set  Output Voltage  RF Modulation  SP Param. (PLL)  Set Frequency  Set Slope  Mag. Offset  Mag. Read  Mag. Switching  Lock  Gain  Phase  Enable Power  1 OMHz DAC  Signal Values  ad0  adl  ad2  • ad3  ad4  ad5  ad8  ad8  adl 0  adl 1  adl 2  • ad13  adl 4  ad15  adl 8  adl 8  ad13  0.005  2.321  2.321  1.57  0.328  2.011  2.337  0.037  2.587  0.005  0.827  o. 968  0.970  o. 771  1.483  0.005  1.090  2.880  1.710  4.900  Spare  +24 Volt Heat.  +24 Volt Elec.  Lamp Drain  Lamp Gate  Crystal Heat Ctrl  Cell Heat Ctrl  Lamp Heat Ctrl  AC Photosignal  Photocell IN  Case Temp.  Xtal Thermistors  Cell T hermistors  Lamp Thermistors  Frequency Pot  Analog Ground  22M H z Varactor  Auto Gain Ctrl  RF Lock  TO  TS  PS  PI  TT  -1782  13972  190  8  2  Time Offset  Time Slope  Pulse Slope  Phase Lock  Time Constant  Stability Factor  Integral Term  Lock Mode  Last Valid Tag]



And this is the replacement after some months of operations, sync to the 1PPS of a Thunderbolt-E:



[cid:image004.jpg at 01D3B0E3.047927B0]





Hope this helps,

Peter


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From michael.cook at sfr.fr  Wed Feb 28 17:16:02 2018
From: michael.cook at sfr.fr (Mike Cook)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 23:16:02 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <F0729BB3-5AC7-4307-8F46-06D9FFF7181F@sfr.fr>

Hi Arnold,
  It looks like your oscillator is locked to the rubidium and it is configured to lock to an incoming PPS sig, but the TT value is null, so maybe you have forgotten to connect the GPS? Or maybe to the wrong connector? Check the PPS in to see if you have a good signal. 
I don’t know about the ranges of the ad5,ad9 values. Yours are a little  lower than the one I have been looking at?
regards,
Mike


> Le 28 févr. 2018 à 22:14, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> a écrit :
> 
> Hello Michael and Tom, thanks for the quick reaction!
> 
> Of course I did already think that the rubidium cell doesn't work any more, but then I was astonished after more than 1 hour running how precise the output frequency is and I could not see a drift beyond the natural noise/ fluctuations which I can see as well with Tr. Thundelbolt. I did not yet look deeper e.g. observing the longtime behaviour nor did I open the box (yet), anyway I don't know much about the electronic internals.
> I have running the RbMon and looked to the data list which I have annexed. It doesn't explain much for me therefore I am asking for help and support to find possible solutions, there are so much excellent experts out here.
> I am worried that in fact the Rb capsule went over the Jordan ... perhaps it can be revitalized but I have no experience with it.
> I doupt a bit the lamp heater control value etc., ad5 to ad9.
> What is the range ... ? How shall one understand these and other values?
> But finally, how can one improve the situation?
> 
> I am open for all good hints, instructions and ideas! (I am sure that there are other timenuts also interested ;-)  )
> 
> many thanks in advance
> 
> Arnold
> 
> Am 28.02.2018 um 21:02 schrieb Michael Wouters:
>> Hello Arnold,
>> A frequency offset of a part in 10E-11 still sounds healthy to me. I wonder
>> whether there is some kind of electronic problem?
>> I have run 40 or so PRs10s and the lamp is the usual bit that dies.
>> If you hook up a computer to the RS232 port, there are lots of diagnostics
>> available.
>> Cheers
>> Michael
>> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 at 5:47 am, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> wrote:
>>> Hello fellow timenuts,
>>> 
>>> for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
>>> informations.
>>> I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
>>> interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
>>> Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
>>> The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
>>> Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
>>> trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
>>> In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
>>> Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
>>> be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
>>> expectable?
>>> 
>>> kind regards,
>>> 
>>> Arnold
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.

"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. »
George Bernard Shaw


From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Wed Feb 28 17:27:40 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 23:27:40 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <F0729BB3-5AC7-4307-8F46-06D9FFF7181F@sfr.fr>
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
 <F0729BB3-5AC7-4307-8F46-06D9FFF7181F@sfr.fr>
Message-ID: <40155a4d-47f8-52bc-5613-facd6ab66bcc@gmx.de>

Hi Mike,

very interesting what you are saying, I remember long months ago that I 
prepared the RbO for the calibration with the 1 PPS from Thunderbolt. 
Then I stored it away until today ...
Perhaps this I should look after, but today it is already too late ...
Would be great, if my nice box would do the job still some or better a 
lot of years more!
Unfortunately I have actually also problems with my Thunderbolt output 
of the 1 PPS. So, it is hard to be a timenut!

Thank you, regards,

Arnold

Am 28.02.2018 um 23:16 schrieb Mike Cook:
> Hi Arnold,
>    It looks like your oscillator is locked to the rubidium and it is configured to lock to an incoming PPS sig, but the TT value is null, so maybe you have forgotten to connect the GPS? Or maybe to the wrong connector? Check the PPS in to see if you have a good signal.
> I don’t know about the ranges of the ad5,ad9 values. Yours are a little  lower than the one I have been looking at?
> regards,
> Mike
> 
> 
>> Le 28 févr. 2018 à 22:14, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> a écrit :
>>
>> Hello Michael and Tom, thanks for the quick reaction!
>>
>> Of course I did already think that the rubidium cell doesn't work any more, but then I was astonished after more than 1 hour running how precise the output frequency is and I could not see a drift beyond the natural noise/ fluctuations which I can see as well with Tr. Thundelbolt. I did not yet look deeper e.g. observing the longtime behaviour nor did I open the box (yet), anyway I don't know much about the electronic internals.
>> I have running the RbMon and looked to the data list which I have annexed. It doesn't explain much for me therefore I am asking for help and support to find possible solutions, there are so much excellent experts out here.
>> I am worried that in fact the Rb capsule went over the Jordan ... perhaps it can be revitalized but I have no experience with it.
>> I doupt a bit the lamp heater control value etc., ad5 to ad9.
>> What is the range ... ? How shall one understand these and other values?
>> But finally, how can one improve the situation?
>>
>> I am open for all good hints, instructions and ideas! (I am sure that there are other timenuts also interested ;-)  )
>>
>> many thanks in advance
>>
>> Arnold
>>
>> Am 28.02.2018 um 21:02 schrieb Michael Wouters:
>>> Hello Arnold,
>>> A frequency offset of a part in 10E-11 still sounds healthy to me. I wonder
>>> whether there is some kind of electronic problem?
>>> I have run 40 or so PRs10s and the lamp is the usual bit that dies.
>>> If you hook up a computer to the RS232 port, there are lots of diagnostics
>>> available.
>>> Cheers
>>> Michael
>>> On Thu, 1 Mar 2018 at 5:47 am, Arnold Tibus <arnold.tibus at gmx.de> wrote:
>>>> Hello fellow timenuts,
>>>>
>>>> for my old PRS10 I need some information and help with technical
>>>> informations.
>>>> I have this item bought quite some years ago and I have manufactured an
>>>> interface cable with the special connector last year. Did work fine.
>>>> Taken out of storage I do get anymore the lock and PPS signal out.
>>>> The 10 MHz output does look very good, the unloaded sine voltage is 2.8
>>>> Vpp and the frequency is very precise and stable very close to the
>>>> trimble thunderbolt GPS-out signal at abt. 10E-11.
>>>> In the annex you can see the data output with more delailed info.
>>>> Can somebody tell me more, is the life at the end and what and how can
>>>> be done to revitalize this nice time machine? How much time more is
>>>> expectable?
>>>>
>>>> kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Arnold
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. »
> George Bernard Shaw
> 
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From tvb at LeapSecond.com  Wed Feb 28 17:37:58 2018
From: tvb at LeapSecond.com (Tom Van Baak)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 14:37:58 -0800
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
References: <675715a5-4541-7b9f-8a75-b88d324a0161@gmx.de>
 <CAGP4rdm1WK6YnDt2n9Akz59poHmpUKp5XXybtYNa-Eb9-NNczA@mail.gmail.com>
 <18ac6443-8afc-7e7d-db1d-e13fe93cd7dc@gmx.de>
 <7c3b844e-64e3-2f25-8ad8-f20f30bd03c5@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <B8E8B76872D8471FB7A873C84D9A04F6@pc52>

Just to double check, here is Arnold's original PDF, and also the PDF without multi-dots, plus a PNG and JPG version. One of these has to work!

I'm not sure what went wrong with his first try; I'm looking into it. PDF files should work fine on time-nuts (and preferred over DOC or ODT).

/tvb

61b9feb7         8,107 PRS10-status 3 28.Feb.2018.pdf
61b9feb7         8,107 PRS10-status-3-28-Feb-2018.pdf
a3aa1050        34,228 PRS10-status-3-28-Feb-2018.png
b65565c9       224,178 PRS10-status-3-28-Feb-2018.jpg

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arnold Tibus" <arnold.tibus at gmx.de>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed


As I have the impression that my very small data pdf was not 
transferred, I add therefore this explanatory data again but in open 
document format odt with 10 kB. Hopefully this will pass now.

Arnold

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From holrum at hotmail.com  Wed Feb 28 18:32:19 2018
From: holrum at hotmail.com (Mark Sims)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 23:32:19 +0000
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
Message-ID: <SN1PR11MB1024BE84FED4ACC22F2FBCD7CEC70@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>

Lady Heather v6 Beta also has PRS10 support.   You can get the Windows .EXE from here:

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/

You will need to have Heather v5 installed (from ke5fx.com) and replace the current v5  .EXE with the new one.

Start Heather with the /rxpr command line option to configure for the PRS-10.  The ZD keyboard command will display a page of all the parameters from the unit.

From arnold.tibus at gmx.de  Wed Feb 28 18:39:07 2018
From: arnold.tibus at gmx.de (Arnold Tibus)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 00:39:07 +0100
Subject: [time-nuts] PRS10 Information and help needed
In-Reply-To: <SN1PR11MB1024BE84FED4ACC22F2FBCD7CEC70@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
References: <SN1PR11MB1024BE84FED4ACC22F2FBCD7CEC70@SN1PR11MB1024.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <69508260-d83c-7ac8-238f-de369d83d1a7@gmx.de>

Thank you very much Mark!
I have to remark, that your program is really universal and outstanding!
I am using LH since I have Trimble Thunderbolt from the group buy long 
years now.

Regards

Arnold


Am 01.03.2018 um 00:32 schrieb Mark Sims:
> Lady Heather v6 Beta also has PRS10 support.   You can get the Windows .EXE from here:
> 
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/lady-heather-v6-beta-for-windows-exe/
> 
> You will need to have Heather v5 installed (from ke5fx.com) and replace the current v5  .EXE with the new one.
> 
> Start Heather with the /rxpr command line option to configure for the PRS-10.  The ZD keyboard command will display a page of all the parameters from the unit.
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> 


From djl at montana.com  Wed Feb 28 20:04:46 2018
From: djl at montana.com (djl)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 18:04:46 -0700
Subject: [time-nuts] Time nut over from the old days
In-Reply-To: <CAA-F0u9b_VBJKWA6pcbgC214PBL+Tz9s=7BNaUhPAxdrnx5L=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA-F0u_b+jyJeo_ydVnePzCxuqpJFM8UBsT58AxuOiMGCTPcPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <1126955469.684.1519844033146@myemail.cox.net>
 <CAA-F0u9b_VBJKWA6pcbgC214PBL+Tz9s=7BNaUhPAxdrnx5L=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60e9d8c77cc4ff5753e2af81dac68ac5@blackfoot.net>

Pete:  I need a handwarmer. We're having a colder than usual winter.
Don

On 2018-02-28 12:45, Pete Lancashire wrote:
> If anyone wants it, he or she that comes up with the coolest reason can
> have it. It rattles so I will take a look inside and post what I find
> 
> -pete
> 
> On Feb 28, 2018 10:54 AM, "John Franke" <jmfranke at cox.net> wrote:
> 
>> I still use them, both the Bliley and James Knights versions. 
>> Especially
>> like them for 100 KC crystals.
>> 
>> John Franke
>> WA4WDL
>> 
>> > On February 28, 2018 at 12:22 PM Pete Lancashire <
>> pete at petelancashire.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/gIw4P1RQHPk2t4K33
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> > and follow the instructions there.
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-- 
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
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