[time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks

Forrest Christian (List Account) lists at packetflux.com
Fri Mar 9 01:38:30 EST 2018


When there is more demand than generation, the frequency of the grid
drops.   My understanding is that one particular country is pulling more
from the grid than they are generating, and for political/and or financial
reasons which are a bit unclear, noone is willing to generate enough power
to balance the grid.  For most of the generators, the most likely reason is
probably because they aren't wanting to generate the power for free.

In essence this power is being stolen from the grid and not being returned,
causing the frequency variation.

On Mar 9, 2018 12:06 AM, "David G. McGaw" <david.g.mcgaw at dartmouth.edu>
wrote:

Can someone please explain why not paying your bills causes the grid and
therefore the clocks to slow down?  None of the reports, either for the
technical or lay person, give a reason.

David N1HAC



On 3/8/18 5:00 PM, Pieter-Tjerk de Boer wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Here's my graph of the mains grid phase deviation over the last month, and
> for comparison the normal behaviour during the previous year:
>
>    https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%
> 2F%2Fwwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl%2F~ptdeboer%2Fmisc%2Fmains-
> 2018.html&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.
> edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31
> ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=LwRuSvSr0HO
> kxvFoI26uFxgjAxbFif6ytgxe4U2Q%2BQE%3D&reserved=0
>
>
> This is measured in Enschede, the Netherlands, by time-stamping every mains
> cycle using NTP for reference.
>
> Naturally, the 2018 part of the graph nicely matches the graph Detlef
> posted.
>
> Regards,
>    Pieter-Tjerk de Boer (PA3FWM)
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 08, 2018 at 03:50:42PM +0100, d.schuecker at avm.de wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> from new years eve until today 00:00 the European Electricity Grid entsoe
>> lost 16891 sinewaves, nearly 338 seconds. Enclosed you find the sketch of
>> the development. From March 2 they are going to catch up again, it seems.
>>
>> I do a record of the grid frequency. My timebase is a TCXO, 0.4ppm off. I
>> get a frequency value for any single sinewave, precision is 1.4*10^-4 Hz.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Detlef Schücker
>> DD4WV
>>
>> (See attached file: lostseconds.pdf)
>>
>> "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com> schrieb am 08.03.2018 02:16:55:
>>
>> Von: Gerhard Hoffmann <dk4xp at arcor.de>
>>> An: time-nuts at febo.com
>>> Datum: 08.03.2018 02:41
>>> Betreff: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency deviations in Europe affect clocks
>>> Gesendet von: "time-nuts" <time-nuts-bounces at febo.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 07.03.2018 um 22:09 schrieb Poul-Henning Kamp:
>>>
>>>> This explains why my oven clock and the time/temperature display
>>>>> on the building outside my apartment in Switzerland are six minutes
>>>>> slow since January. It was a great mystery to me.
>>>>>
>>>> Can you get a picture of this ?  It would be wonderful to have for
>>>>
>>> future discussions...
>>> Does that help?
>>>
>>> <
>>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%
>>> 2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2F137684711%40N07%2F3887075044
>>> 0%2Fin%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.
>>> edu%7Cea149d08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31
>>> ebf689ec9446f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=tOoi%
>>> 2BsnXyQjy0%2FGXCyOtOInytUmckrvoKGIO1G%2FRpnE%3D&reserved=0
>>>
>>> album-72157662535945536/
>>>           >
>>>
>>> Input to the counter is just an AC wall wart with a voltage divider to
>>>
>> 4Vpp.
>>
>>> Now, the frequency has risen to above 50.02 Hz constantly. It is in the
>>> middle of the night after all.
>>> They have to catch up.
>>>
>>> BTW I have decided to build an analog phase noise tester of my own. This
>>> weekend
>>> I did most of the mechanical things, but it is still in a kit state.
>>>
>>> The pictures are to the left of the 49 Hz-Pic.
>>> The 1-to-6 coax relays are part of the switchable lambda/4 delay line,
>>> so I can enforce
>>> quadrature everywhere above 5 MHz, including unknown amplifiers etc.
>>> Still looking for 2 more 1:6 relays.
>>>
>>> The mixers and dividers are in stereo, so I can do cross correlation in
>>> the 89441A.
>>> One of the mixer/preamp units is open, the ref oscillators will be
>>> MTI-260s on
>>> my oscillator carrier board.
>>>
>>> Have a good night,
>>> Gerhard
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
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>> nuts&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.g.mcgaw%40dartmouth.edu%7Cea149d
>> 08d4134d49c94908d58552ea8e%7C995b093648d640e5a31ebf689ec9446
>> f%7C0%7C0%7C636561513531276977&sdata=WbFAlHeph%2BzrkQoiRBN4r
>> qFUp0zf5gdIeMP6LHzv%2FTw%3D&reserved=0
>>
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>
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