[volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received

Todd Micallef tmicallef at gmail.com
Sun Aug 24 19:52:31 EDT 2014 

Bill,

Thanks for the tip. Do you have an automated measurement system for the
10v inter-comparisons or do you manually log them with a spreadsheet?

I don't think the 12v are better, but it is interesting that some people
have modified them to dual batteries. I do not think there is any added
benefit unless someone happens to use a lot of those particular 12v
batteries.

So far I have two with the 6v packs and one with the 12v. I have a
fourth one waiting to be repaired once I finish my current projects.

Todd
Sent from my iPad

> On Aug 24, 2014, at 17:44, "Bill Gold" <wpgold3637 at att.net <javascript:;>>
wrote:
>
> Todd:
>
>    I check the batteries every month per the 732A manual.  Usually I keep
a
> few used cells from previous packs around that seem to be ok after
checking
> them for capacity just like checking the battery pack.  I can usually spot
> cells going bad with that method.  If I don't have a spare set then I just
> substitute a used cell until I receive a new set.
>
>    I agree with you that the cheap ones are crap.  I have used Power Sonic
> a lot with some a few EaglePicher and one set of Enersys.  The EaglePicher
> are crap so I will never use them.  EaglePicher have had a couple out of 8
> that have failed very early.  I have never tried Panasonic.  So I stick
with
> the Power Sonic's.  I am not sure why the 12 volt ones would be better
than
> the 6 volts because 12 volt is just 6 lead acid cells while the 6volt are
3
> lead acid cells.  If one of the 6 cells in the 12 volt battery go bad then
> the whole battery has to be changed.  So you better buy good quality 12
volt
> batteries.
>
>    I just can't seem to source batteries locally easily at a reasonable
> price.  So I order them from Allied usually.
>
> Bill
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Todd Micallef" <tmicallef at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" <volt-nuts at febo.com
<javascript:;>>
> Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2014 8:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
>
>
>> Bill,
>>
>> I use a lot of the 12v 7ah batteries for my UPS backups and 732B. But
yes,
>> I was mistaken. The 12V 5ah batteries are the ones that I am using in one
>> of my 732A. There is more play inside the tray with the 12v batteries by
>> several mm as compared to the 6v which only has a 2-3mm. The 12v
> conversion
>> is not difficult, but it is easier if the battery tray has already been
>> machined for the 12v batteries. The battery tabs don't line up well with
>> the existing holes and need to be widened. Two additional holes must also
>> be added.
>>
>> Sourcing the batteries locally is more of a convenience than waiting for
>> the delivery. The el-cheapo 6v batteries are a waste of money and I have
8
>> batteries so far to prove it. They died the first time I had a 6hr outage
>> and would not hold a charge after that.
>>
>> Todd
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Sat, Aug 23, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Bill Gold <wpgold3637 at att.net
<javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Randy:
>>>
>>>    I get 6 volt 4 amp/hr (or 4.5 amp/hr) batteries and they will fit
>>> perfect.  Power Sonic PS-640, Genesis NP4-6, Panasonic LC-R064R5C and
>>> others
>>> that are in this size and package.  Order from one of the usual
> electronics
>>> distributors like Allied, Mouser, Digikey.  This is a very common
> battery
>>> as
>>> it is used in a lot of "EXIT" signs so they are lighted when the power
> goes
>>> out.  I don't see how the 12V 7AH will fit as they are too large.  I
> guess
>>> you could use a 12V 5AH (PS1250) as it is the same size as 2 x 6 volt 4
> AH
>>> but the terminals are in the wrong place so you will have to "nibble"
> out
>>> the aluminum plate that holds them in the 732A battery pack.  You have
> to
>>> be
>>> careful if you use the 12v 5AH as you will have 4 extra battery
> connection
>>> leads to deal with and connect correctly.  I would stick with the 6V
> 4AH.
>>> New batteries will last around 12 to 14 hours before the "CAL" light
> goes
>>> out when AC power is not applied.  So shipping to Cal Lab can be a
> problem
>>> if it is a distance away, or you have to use a shipper like UPS or FEDEX
>>> and
>>> you ship the night before and then use their "Morning delivery" and the
> Cal
>>> Lab is expecting your 732A.  Same on the way back to you.  Of course you
>>> could always strap another battery on the 732A and hook it up to the
> "ext
>>> power" plug to last longer.  I have seen it done.  The issue is to get
> the
>>> Cal Lab to charge the extra battery before they ship the 732A back to
> you.
>>>
>>>    When you remove and work on the battery pack always have the AC
> power
>>> plugged in.  The "CAL" led will stay on because the 18.6 v regulated
> supply
>>> is working.
>>>
>>>    The "CAL" light is to indicate that power has not been lost to the
>>> Reference Amp or other associated circuits.  When the raw supply
> (battery)
>>> voltage drops below about 21 volts the "CAL" light will go out.  Below
> that
>>> voltage the heater circuits will not work correctly and the 18.6 volt
>>> regulated supply will not regulate.  The requirement is that the
> Reference
>>> Amp be kept "alive" at all times to maintain the output voltage that was
>>> measured at the time of the most recent Calibration or Certification.
> When
>>> the semiconductor junctions are unbiased and cool off when power is
> lost,
>>> and then power is restored the result will be a different 10 volts than
>>> before the power failure.  My experience is that after all of the years
>>> that
>>> these units have been powered up, this won't happen and when power is
> lost
>>> and then restored, even months later, the 732A will come back to almost
>>> exactly the same 10 volts as when they lost power, usually with in 0.2
> PPM
>>> after 24 hours of "warm up".
>>>
>>>    What type of hookup leads are you using when measuring the 1 volt
>>> output?  What is the PLC set to?  I always use 100 PLC to measure this.
> If
>>> you don't have "low thermal" connection leads you can experience uV
> changes
>>> for a minute or more after plugging in the leads due to the "thermals"
>>> generated because of the difference in temperature between the banana
> jacks
>>> on the 732A and the banana plugs of the leads.  I have found that even
> just
>>> plugging in the lead will generate a thermal difference because of
>>> difference of temps and some heating due to the physical act of just
>>> inserting the plug because of friction between the jack and plug (my
> theory
>>> at any rate).  You have to allow at least a minute or more before being
>>> able
>>> to make a measurement after plugging in the leads.  I just measured the
>>> variation of the 1 volt output of my 732A and using my 3458A and I got a
>>> total difference of  0.159 uV over 40 measurements using 100 PLC on the
> 1
>>> volt range of the 3458A.  Using the MATH function and all of the data
> you
>>> can collect.  That was after waiting for several minutes after plugging
> in
>>> the leads.
>>>
>>>    I hope all of this helps.
>>>
>>> Bill
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Randy Evans" <randyevans2688 at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
>>> To: "Discussion of precise voltage measurement" <volt-nuts at febo.com
<javascript:;>>
>>> Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:03 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [volt-nuts] 732A and Prologix received
>>>
>>>
>>>> Todd,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the info.  I have several Panasonic 12V 7 AH batteries that
> I
>>>> keep topped off and they have very low current draw (~2 to 3 mA at
> 13.5
>>>> VDC) when charged and at their float voltage, so I am pretty sure they
>>> are
>>>> in good condition.  I will look at getting those in the units after I
>>>> ascertain the condition of the 732.
>>>>
>>>> So now I have a what appears to be a functioning 3458A and a 732A but
>>> they
>>>> slightly disagree.  I am like the man with two watches that disagree
> on
>>> the
>>>> time  - which is correct?  For the moment, i am only concerned with
>>>> stability.  The need for absolute accuracy will come later.
>>>>
>>>> Randy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 8:06 PM, Todd Micallef <tmicallef at gmail.com
<javascript:;>>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Randy,
>>>>>
>>>>> You have two possible choices. It can be configured with 4 x 6v 4Ah
>>>>> batteries or 2 x 12v 7Ah batteries. Hopefully the previous owner has
>>>>> modified the battery pack already. A couple of mine needed a nibbler
>>> tool
>>>>> to remove enough of the aluminum cover that fits over the tops of
> the
>>>>> batteries. The original cover will short out to the battery tabs
>>> regardless
>>>>> of the battery configuration if this is not done.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can find larger capacity batteries that will give you slightly
> more
>>>>> battery life. I lost a couple sets of mail-order batteries after a
> few
>>>>> extended outages. I would recommend going with locally bought
> batteries
>>>>> instead of the cheaper mail order. My local Batteries Plus will
>>> typically
>>>>> have some warranty if I remember correctly. Moving forward I will
> only
>>> use
>>>>> 2 12v batteries and pre-charge them on a battery charger to equalize
>>> them
>>>>> before putting them in the 732A. I think the cheap batteries did not
>>>>> discharge equally, and would not recover when power was applied.
>>>>>
>>>>> Inspect the back plane for damaged traces and look at the
> capacitors. I
>>> had
>>>>> a few that looked questionable. So far, I have replaced all the big
>>> caps
>>> on
>>>>> the pre-regulator and regulator boards. My feeling is that once
> these
>>> go
>>>>> online, they should run as long as possible between repairs.
>>>>>
>>>>> The battery charger circuit may need adjusting. I tweaked mine and
> it
>>>>> seemed to work fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> Todd
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Randy Evans <
>>> randyevans2688 at gmail.com <javascript:;>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I received my Fluke 732A today.  Just powered it up but it needs
> new
>>>>>> batteries.  Any suggestions for sources (I haven't opened up the
> unit
>>>>> yet -
>>>>>> I want to make sure it works before doing that).  Also received
> the
>>>>>> ProLogix USB-GPIB adapter.  I plan on using Mark Sims' CAL ran
> data
>>>>> dumper
>>>>>> program to get the CAL data from my 3458A.  Should be a busy
> weekend.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Randy
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