[time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

WB6BNQ wb6bnq at cox.net
Mon Jun 27 02:14:06 UTC 2011


OK, that sounds normal to me.  Originally, your first description made it seem as
something completely different.

I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing.  The fact that they are
feeding short blocks via the "REAR ALLEY" from the main street is not unheard
of.  And using just 2 wires is fine as there is no need to run a third wire if
you are not going to use it.  Similar arrangements can be seen up in the San
Francisco bay area in the old neighborhoods as they were laid out with the old
East Coast thinking from well over a century ago.

I am glad to see that they are not too backwards in your part of the country.


Will Matney wrote:

> Bill,
> I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one
> time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm
> not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under
> the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with
> ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind
> two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is
> carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between
> the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the
> pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated
> neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words,
> counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral,
> ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers
> primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of
> course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the
> home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also
> tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is
> attached to a ground rod at the home too.
> No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad
> news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they
> have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds
> these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row
> goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without
> power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across
> the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn
> means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer
> bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb
> making contact with the hot on the top of the pole.
> I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a
> single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots
> like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about
> two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also
> about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing
> we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would
> have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially
> transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant
> for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained,
> they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more
> trouble.
> Best,
> Will
> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
> On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
> ?Will,
> ?
> ?What you describe does NOT make sense.  When you say nuetral or ground do
> you
> ?mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
> (dirt) as a
> ?return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  Equally, if the 220
> center
> ?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary
> side of
> ?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return
> path
> ?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer
> are
> ?still connected.
> ?
> ?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide
> a very
> ?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run.
> ?
> ?Just how long are these single wire runs ?  Do you know what the voltage
> is on
> ?that top wire ?
> ?
> ?Could you clarify this a bit more ?
> ?
> ?Bill....WB6BNQ
> ?
> ?
> ?Will Matney wrote:
> ?
> ?? Bill,
> ??
> ?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where
> the
> ?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the
> Huntington,
> ?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
> ?? thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all
> the
> ?? way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river.
> ??
> ?? I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2
> ?? miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the
> ?? Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot
> ?? wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral,
> the
> ?? telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug
> ?? onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out
> of
> ?? the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the
> pole,
> ?? if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like
> ?? that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county
> seat
> ?? at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along
> the
> ?? highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all
> ?? residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's
> ?? because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now
> ?? that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in
> their
> ?? place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new
> homes
> ?? the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property
> by
> ?? the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the
> way
> ?? AEP wants to do it.
> ??
> ?? Best,
> ??
> ?? Will
> ??
> ?? ?*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
> ?? ?
> ?? ?On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
> ?? ?Will Matney wrote:
> ?? ?snip
> ?? ?As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
> roads
> ?? where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas,
> it's
> ?? only single phase on the poles.
> ?? ?
> ?? ?Best,
> ?? ?Will
> ?? ?
> ?? ?Will,
> ?? ?I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In
> ?? residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV.
> ?? Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via
> a
> ?? transformer.  AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower
> ?? level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer.
> ?? Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from
> a
> ?? transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because
> there
> ?? was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction.
> ?? ?The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.
> That
> ?? is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single
> ?? phase) alternately across different phases.
> ?? ?At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize
> ?? there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly
> ?? along the East Coast.
> ?? ?I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you
> in ?
> ??
> ?? ?Bill....WB6BNQ
> ??
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