[time-nuts] 60 Hz measurement party

Eric Garner garnere at gmail.com
Mon Jun 27 15:54:32 UTC 2011

Did it sound like this:


On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 7:14 PM, WB6BNQ <wb6bnq at cox.net> wrote:
> Will,
> OK, that sounds normal to me.  Originally, your first description made it seem as
> something completely different.
> I see nothing wrong with what you are now describing.  The fact that they are
> feeding short blocks via the "REAR ALLEY" from the main street is not unheard
> of.  And using just 2 wires is fine as there is no need to run a third wire if
> you are not going to use it.  Similar arrangements can be seen up in the San
> Francisco bay area in the old neighborhoods as they were laid out with the old
> East Coast thinking from well over a century ago.
> I am glad to see that they are not too backwards in your part of the country.
> bill....WB6BNQ
> Will Matney wrote:
>> Bill,
>> I'm not sure what the voltage is, as I remember asking about it at one
>> time, when the transformer went belly up, and I think he said 4 kV, but I'm
>> not sure. Now, as to the neutral wire, it runs along the poles just under
>> the hot, and about even with the transformer. It's a two wire system, with
>> ground, they have running, and they feed about a two block stretch behind
>> two rows of houses (along our back yards). The insulated neutral is
>> carried, or supported, by an uninsulated aluminum cable, or ground, between
>> the poles. Actually, it's what they use to attach it to the side of the
>> pole with. There is a small spiral wire that wraps around the insulated
>> neutral and ground, and holds the two together in a bundle. In other words,
>> counting the hot on top of the pole, there would be three wires, a neutral,
>> ground, and a hot. They bug onto the neutral directly from the transformers
>> primary, and to the hot, on top of the pole, through the blow out fuse. Of
>> course the seconday carries the normal 220-110 Vac single phase into the
>> home, and that ground runs down the pole to a ground rod, which is also
>> tied to the ground (that runs with the neutral) from pole to pole, and is
>> attached to a ground rod at the home too.
>> No, if they tried to use the earth as a return, that would be really bad
>> news, it's ground only. What they do here, is down by the highway, they
>> have a larger transformer, hooked to the three phase main line, that feeds
>> these different single phase lines to the rows of homes. About every row
>> goes to its own transformer at the end of the line, as I have been without
>> power, or my whole row has, and the row of houses in front of me, across
>> the street, and behind me, across that street, have power. That in turn
>> means that the fuse has opened down at the highway, at that transformer
>> bank, over a short up this line somewhere, generally due to a tree limb
>> making contact with the hot on the top of the pole.
>> I don't have a photo of the pole here, but all we have is a pole with a
>> single insulator on the tip top. It has no means of carrying multiple hots
>> like you describe on arms, for the three phases. Just below the hot, about
>> two feet down the pole, is where the ground and neutral run. That is also
>> about the top of the transformers that feed the homes here. The only thing
>> we have that set up like your speaking of is down by the highway. You would
>> have to know AEP, as they are bad to undersize everything, especially
>> transformers. Here, they had five houses running off a transformer meant
>> for two, or three at the most, until it finally gave out. I complained,
>> they sent up a supreviser, and they upsized it, and we've had no more
>> trouble.
>> Best,
>> Will
>> *********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********
>> On 6/26/2011 at 5:52 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
>> ?Will,
>> ?
>> ?What you describe does NOT make sense.  When you say nuetral or ground do
>> you
>> ?mean a second wire ?  Surely you do not mean they are using the earth
>> (dirt) as a
>> ?return path ?  That would be terribly inefficient !  Equally, if the 220
>> center
>> ?tap is earthed along with one side of the higher voltage from the primary
>> side of
>> ?the transformer, then I could see where some serious issues if the return
>> path
>> ?gets interrupted but the center tap and return line from the transformer
>> are
>> ?still connected.
>> ?
>> ?If I am understanding what you are saying, such a layout would not provide
>> a very
>> ?reliable operation for the last drop point if it is a very long run.
>> ?
>> ?Just how long are these single wire runs ?  Do you know what the voltage
>> is on
>> ?that top wire ?
>> ?
>> ?Could you clarify this a bit more ?
>> ?
>> ?Bill....WB6BNQ
>> ?
>> ?
>> ?Will Matney wrote:
>> ?
>> ?? Bill,
>> ??
>> ?? I wish it was that way here, but it's not, only along the highway where
>> the
>> ?? general business is located. Now, across the Ohio River, on the
>> Huntington,
>> ?? WV side, it is more insudtrial, and they do have it in places as your
>> ?? thinking of, all through town. It's like that from Huntington WV, all
>> the
>> ?? way to Ashland, Ky, or on that side of the river.
>> ??
>> ?? I live in Proctorville, Ohio, a really small town, or really about 2-1/2
>> ?? miles above it, and it's all sub divisions here. We're right across the
>> ?? Ohio River from Huntington. The poles for all these houses carry one hot
>> ?? wire on top, off a single insulator, plus there's a ground or neutral,
>> the
>> ?? telephone, and TV cable, and that's all we have on a pole. They just bug
>> ?? onto the top line with the fuse blow-out, and into the transformer. Out
>> of
>> ?? the transformer goes to the neutral, and then a ground wire down the
>> pole,
>> ?? if it's a pole with a transformer on it, like behind me here. It's like
>> ?? that everywhere here, unless you get to a larger city like our county
>> seat
>> ?? at Ironton, or at South Point. The three phase lines we have are along
>> the
>> ?? highway, and or main roads, but when you hit the streets, that are all
>> ?? residential, the above mentioned scheme is all we have. I guess it's
>> ?? because that on this end of our county, it was mostly farming, until now
>> ?? that's it built up over the past 30 years. The farms are gone, and in
>> their
>> ?? place are new sub divisions, but they still run the power to the new
>> homes
>> ?? the same way. To have three phase here, you either have to own property
>> by
>> ?? the highway (St Rt 7), or you use a converter. I guess that's just the
>> way
>> ?? AEP wants to do it.
>> ??
>> ?? Best,
>> ??
>> ?? Will
>> ??
>> ?? ?*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
>> ?? ?
>> ?? ?On 6/26/2011 at 4:27 PM WB6BNQ wrote:
>> ?? ?Will Matney wrote:
>> ?? ?snip
>> ?? ?As of now, the only 3 phase lines around here are close to the major
>> roads
>> ?? where business resides, but when you get into the residential areas,
>> it's
>> ?? only single phase on the poles.
>> ?? ?
>> ?? ?Best,
>> ?? ?Will
>> ?? ?
>> ?? ?Will,
>> ?? ?I am going to have to disagree with your statement above (in blue).  In
>> ?? residential areas the top three lines are 3 phase and, typically, 4 KV.
>> ?? Yes, only single phase is routed to homes as 220 volts center tapped via
>> a
>> ?? transformer.  AND, you will also see three (3) 220 volt lines at a lower
>> ?? level on the poles feeding the houses grouped for that transformer.
>> ?? Depending upon routing, there may be small runs that are stringers from
>> a
>> ?? transformer where only the 220 volt wires are run, but only because
>> there
>> ?? was no intent to continue the 4 KV bus in that direction.
>> ?? ?The reason for the 3 phase is to balance the load to the substation.
>> That
>> ?? is the transformers are spread out along the path and connected (single
>> ?? phase) alternately across different phases.
>> ?? ?At least that is how it is done out here on the West Coast !  I realize
>> ?? there may be exceptions in really old areas of the country, particularly
>> ?? along the East Coast.
>> ?? ?I am located in San Diego, CA area.  What part of the country are you
>> in ?
>> ??
>> ?? ?Bill....WB6BNQ
>> ??
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Eric Garner

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