[time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defective connector)

Joe Gwinn joegwinn at comcast.net
Fri Feb 24 18:27:06 UTC 2012

At 3:24 PM +0000 2/24/12, time-nuts-request at febo.com wrote:
>Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:42:36 +0100
>From: bg at lysator.liu.se
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>	<time-nuts at febo.com>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Neutrinos not so fast? (defective connector)


>  >>
>>>  High precision GPS receivers use various correlator schemes that try to
>>>  minimize multipath. "Normal" GPS receivers are more vulnerable than
>>>  geodetic quality receivers.
>>>  http://webone.novatel.ca/assets/Documents/Papers/PAC.pdf
>>  You are of course correct, but timing receivers may not go to such lengths
>>  are are needed for geodetic receivers.  A lot of the magic of geodetic
>>  receivers is in the choke-ring antenna, which ignores signals arriving
>>  from too low an angle above the horizon.
>>  In the Neutrino case, the multipath is built into the cable between
>>  antenna
>>  and receiver, so the antenna cannot help.  But I will read the article,
>>  which looks interesting.  Wonder if it would solve such a triple-transit
>>  echo problem.
>>  Joe
>I am not discussing antenna multipath attenuation. That is a separate
>topic. Look at figure 12 in the Novatel paper - noting for the y-axis -
>that 1 C/A chip length is about 300 meters.

Hmm.  Isn't 60 nanoseconds (18 meters at C) well within this envelope?

>Here is an article from the Ashtech/JPS/JNS/Topcon-family.
>      http://tinyurl.com/7w9wl4p
>Overview results are seen in figure 5.

Thanks.  I'll read it.

>Timing receivers used by time-labs to compare Cs are usually geodetic
>receivers with the option to lock the internal clock to external
>10MHz/1PPS signals coming from the Cs.
>My point is that good receivers attenuate multipath fairly well.

If it's old, it may well have none of these improvements.  The timing 
receivers I have used usually say that they are within 100 
nanoseconds; I assume this to be the three sigma range.  I do know 
that in stationary receivers, the Allan Deviation of a given such 
receiver is quite good, implying that the error is a slowly drifting 
offset.  A cable multipath could well cause a bias error.

>Is it known which GPS receiver type was used in the Neutrino experiment?

Another poster (Antonio I8IOV) answered this:

"It was a  Septentrio PolaRx2e. See the paper on setup and procedures:


I don't know anything about that make and model.   But someone will. 
I wonder when this unit was made.  And if it has a Rubidium local 

Actually, I bet there are multiple Time Nuts with more than one GPS 
timing receiver.  It is a simple experiment to feed a pair from a 
single antenna plus splitter, and put an impedance bump or two in one 
feed line, and compare the 1PPS outputs.  (I don't have the 
equipment.)  Or, split, delay one path, recombine, using a variable 
attenuatior in the delay path to adjust the overall multipath effect 
with which to challenge one of the two receivers receiver.


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