[time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

Mon Jul 29 21:16:41 EDT 2013

Hi

Slow down a moment ….

If the cell tower is CDMA then yes GPS will have an impact on it.  If it's TDMA / GSM - not so much.

If the cell tower is working properly, it'll go into holdover for at least 24 hours (and probably a *lot* more) before there is an issue.

If the cell tower has an operator with >= 1/4 of a brain, they will have somebody out there within 4 to 8 hours. By 12 hours everything will be swapped out and checked (probably a lot less).

At some point the guy may / will / should notice that the GPS in his car is going nuts.

Well before 24 hours with no fix, it gets bumped up. Next tier *will* check their GPS. In comes the FCC (and likely others).

If the jammer isn't found in 24 - 96 hours, in comes a backup mobile tower. 

If that's jammed as well, you loose cell service from one provider over a relatively small area. This happens all the time. It happened here twice within the last month. 

If it happens enough people switch to another provider.

The world does not end because I can't text my buddies *right now*….

----------------

The TBolt's come from an early E-911 system. They don't do it that way anymore. The current thinking is that you put an aided GPS in all the phones. We have them because the system went out of service. 

---------------

Bob 

On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not for prohibiting ownership of as that would break a lot of companies test programs including the one I work for as we have a spirent in a cage to test LTE systems. And every avionics shop would be out of business
> 
> But if the FCC catches someone USING a jammer to  access to GPS i dont have a problem with FCC throwing book at miscreant 
> 
> There is a big difference between unintentional interference and actively disrupting the only publically available precision navigation and time source
> 
> Keep a jammer up long enough near a cell tower and you can bring tower down as well.  Where do you think all those Tbolts come from.  And because of GPS you no longer need a Cs reference in the CO for clock as you have all those flying clocks up there
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "J. Forster" <jfor at quikus.com> wrote:
> 
>> Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and
>> guns, at least, and failed every time.
>> 
>> If people want something badly enough, they will get it.
>> 
>> Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it?
>> 
>> MMV,
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> =================
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing
>>> and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is
>>> most survivable
>>> 
>>> That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should
>>> be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As
>>> most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look
>>> at the specs from their Chinese suppliers.
>>> 
>>> If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than
>>> allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" <wlfuqu00 at uky.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas
>>>> and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce
>>>> believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The
>>>> problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS
>>>> spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times
>>>> to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far
>>>> from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual
>>>> satellites.
>>>> Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is
>>>> inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases
>>>> there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and
>>>> more obvious, signal strengths.
>>>> Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that
>>>> prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals
>>>> and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources.
>>>> The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech
>>>> solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech.
>>>> Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past
>>>> have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave
>>>> system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain.
>>>> It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF
>>>> energy.
>>>> Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low
>>>> tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat.
>>>> “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the
>>>> drain.”
>>>> Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most
>>>> reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would
>>>> be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data
>>>> would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual
>>>> constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course.
>>>> However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot
>>>> intended to take in the first place if his goal is to
>>>> take the vessel to a different destination.
>>>> 73
>>>> Bill wa4lav
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