[time-nuts] GPS Spoofing

Bob Camp lists at rtty.us
Mon Jul 29 21:23:56 EDT 2013


Hi

Missed one…

On Jul 29, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Scott McGrath <scmcgrath at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm not for prohibiting ownership of as that would break a lot of companies test programs including the one I work for as we have a spirent in a cage to test LTE systems. And every avionics shop would be out of business
> 
> But if the FCC catches someone USING a jammer to  access to GPS i dont have a problem with FCC throwing book at miscreant 
> 
> There is a big difference between unintentional interference and actively disrupting the only publically available precision navigation and time source
> 
> Keep a jammer up long enough near a cell tower and you can bring tower down as well.  Where do you think all those Tbolts come from.  And because of GPS you no longer need a Cs reference in the CO for clock as you have all those flying clocks up there

The whole Stratum 1, 2, 3 world is still alive and well in the CO world. In normal operation, everybody swims on time from upstream. You need:

1) GPS denial (hasn't happened yet, so rare)
2) CO with Stratum 1 as a possibility (rare, but they do exist).
3) CO looses sync  over it's land lines (again, rare)

The same holdover / maintenance  process works there as well. Things have to be out for a while (days) to have much of an impact. Even then the main issue is a few more clicks on the line. The downstream stuff world will track the CO for a *long* time before anything truly looses lock. 

Bob

> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Jul 29, 2013, at 12:23 PM, "J. Forster" <jfor at quikus.com> wrote:
> 
>> Prohibition never works. It's been tried with booze, drugs, pay sex, and
>> guns, at least, and failed every time.
>> 
>> If people want something badly enough, they will get it.
>> 
>> Ask yourself, is the collateral damage worth it?
>> 
>> MMV,
>> 
>> -John
>> 
>> =================
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> We've been discussing both GNSS denial/spoofing vs Loran denial/spoofing
>>> and the relative difficulty of doing same to determine which system is
>>> most survivable
>>> 
>>> That being said the penalty for using the truck stop/spy shop GPS should
>>> be in the hundreds of thousands per day and carry serious jail time. As
>>> most of them are easily capable of affecting a square mile as if you look
>>> at the specs from their Chinese suppliers.
>>> 
>>> If you want to keep your boss from finding that you spent more than
>>> allocated time eating lunch just wrap the antenna in Al foil
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>> On Jul 29, 2013, at 1:12 AM, "Fuqua, Bill L" <wlfuqu00 at uky.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The idea behind GPS spoofing is that one or several surface antennas
>>>> and sources could be set up in such a way that they would produce
>>>> believable position data that would take a vessel off course. The
>>>> problem with this concept is that the person in charge of the GPS
>>>> spoofing hardware has to know exactly where the vessel is at all times
>>>> to start with and other vessels some distance away, and not very far
>>>> from the target vessel would get contradicting signals from the virtual
>>>> satellites.
>>>> Software could be used to detect changes in position data that is
>>>> inconsistent with present course and recent data. And in most cases
>>>> there would be a period of very inconsistent signals from satellites and
>>>> more obvious, signal strengths.
>>>> Another way to limit spoofing is to use directional antennas that
>>>> prevent reception from near horizon signals. Or detect low angle signals
>>>> and sound the alarm or implement a means of ignoring those sources.
>>>> The problem very high tech systems are often defeated by low tech
>>>> solutions. Successful GPS spoofing would be very high tech.
>>>> Many high tech systems that the government had developed in the past
>>>> have been defeated by low tech methods. An example is the microwave
>>>> system that is intended to turn back rioters by inducing burning pain.
>>>> It was defeated by using thick wooden shields which absorbed the RF
>>>> energy.
>>>> Human resourcefulness and determination often defeats technology in low
>>>> tech ways. And the more complex a system is the easier it is to defeat.
>>>> “The more they overtake the plumbing the easier it is to stop up the
>>>> drain.”
>>>> Most discussions have been about wireless spoofing. However, the most
>>>> reliable way to do it would be an “inside job” where a device would
>>>> be put on board and patched in the antenna lead. The correct GPS data
>>>> would be received by the device and then it would produce a virtual
>>>> constellation of satellites that would direct the vessel off course.
>>>> However, the programmer would have to know the course that the pilot
>>>> intended to take in the first place if his goal is to
>>>> take the vessel to a different destination.
>>>> 73
>>>> Bill wa4lav
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>> 
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