[time-nuts] Philips 5182 question
Ted Hartson
awombat at earthlink.net
Thu Jun 19 15:54:21 EDT 2014
I almost never post, but here I am with a question---I have a Philips PM
5182Func. Gen. I can't find a book on line and I would like to invoke an
external clock and see a BNC for this but wonder what is the nominal inputs
for this and how is it activated. Some how I remember this as a 2^n box
and not compatible with my 10 Mhz etc Rubidium Thanks in advance Ted
Hartson Parks AZ
----- Original Message -----
From: <time-nuts-request at febo.com>
To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 12:38 PM
Subject: time-nuts Digest, Vol 119, Issue 33
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. TBolt signal levels (Tom Van Baak)
> 2. Re: FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller (Chris Albertson)
> 3. Re: FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller (Tom Van Baak)
> 4. Re: FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller (Tom Van Baak)
> 5. Re: TBolt signal levels (Charles Steinmetz)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 10:34:03 -0700
> From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: [time-nuts] TBolt signal levels
> Message-ID: <D5D4AC13B145410AAFCF1C6A2DD939D3 at pc52>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I'm testing several Trimble Thunderbolt's here with several different
> antenna setups: indoor/outdoor, low-gain/high-gain, patch/helix,
> plain/choke-ring.
>
> Has anyone done a comparative analysis of antenna make/model/type against
> signal levels for this receiver?
>
> Or is there a rule of thumb for what is consider "good" vs. "bad"
> reception?
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 08:31:19 -0700
> From: Chris Albertson <albertson.chris at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
> Message-ID:
> <CABbxVHujcr54EViG4UR8V2nCv3OTX71RSw85QVmEB0Mo31W0BQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> I've been working in the same thing BUT I don't want anyone who builds it
> to need a PCB. And I want the firmware to load over USB so there is no
> need to ship programmed chips or deal with external programmers. I think
> I can get the cost below $20. That said I doubt I'll get 1E-13
> performance out of my Rb.
>
> My little Arduino based controller has been running now for a couple
> months
> and keeping a crystal in lock. The board has a pins left over for a
> serial
> port that I'll hook up to the Rb.
>
> The trick to getting the cost down is NOT to do a custom PCB. Take
> advantage of one of the uP development boards and then for under $5 you
> get
> the USB interface, D/A and A/D, serial ports, timers and quite a bit of
> logic all 1/3rd the size of a credit card.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Jan Boutsen <jan.boutsen at telenet.be>
> wrote:
>
>> Count me in for an assembled and tested board. Great project.
>> Jan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <EWKehren at aol.com>
>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:49 PM
>> Subject: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>>
>>
>>
>> FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>> With all the FE 5680 rubidium oscillators being used as door stops out
>> there some of us decided to develop a GPSDO for it. The main question we
>> have:
>> Is there sufficient interest among time nuts for a discipline controller
>> for the FE5680 to make it available? Looking at the postings over the
>> last
>> two years I am not so sure.
>> The construction and preliminary testing of a Brooks Shera style GPS
>> discipline controller for the later version (6.81e-13 resolution) of the
>> FE5680
>> has been completed. We are trying to determine the number of people that
>> would be interested in obtaining an FE5680 discipline controller (if
>> there
>> is
>> sufficient interest about $45 a kit shipping included, $75 for an
>> assembled and tested board, international orders for an additional $5)
>> when
>> it is
>> released.
>> We are also looking for three Beta testers that would be willing to
>> purchase, assemble, and test our Beta release controller kit with their
>> own
>> FE5680A and GPS receiver or Tbolt and provide feedback. Please send an
>> email to
>> _EWKehren at aol.com_ (mailto:EWKehren at aol.com) Subject Time-Nuts FE
>> 5680A,
>> if you would be interested in being one of the three Beta testers. A key
>> requirement is the willingness to get to it right away, the board
>> assembly
>> takes about 30 minutes. Instrumentation to measure results is also a
>> requirement. We obtained impressive results using a cheap ublox 6M
>> receiver.
>>
>> The FE5680 GPS discipline controller is a small (2? x 2?) board using 8
>> DIP?s and 1 SOT23-5 package powered by +5v with 0.1? headers for all
>> inputs
>> and outputs. Our plan is to have the kit supplier solder in the only SMD
>> device on the board. A GPS receiver 1PPS and 10 MHz sine from the FE5680
>> feed the board with two 9600 baud serial ports sending TTL level tuning
>> commands to the FE5680 and receiving commands from and sending status
>> data
>> to a
>> PC for data logging and system control via a simple terminal program.
>> In the chip count are two opto couplers that allow the use of isolated
>> TTL
>> to USB conversion. These USB adapters are readily available and furnish
>> the 5 V necessary for the secondary of the opto circuit. An option is to
>> not
>> use the opto couplers and send the PIC TTL level RX and TX into a TTL to
>> RS232 adapter. Another option is to use a TTL to RS232 converter after
>> the
>> opto couplers but then an external 5 V source would have to be supplied
>> for
>> the opto couplers.
>> As I mentioned before to get best performance from the FE5680
>> temperature
>> control is a must and after much fan and metal work I realized that a
>> Lap
>> Top heat pipe is the easiest lowest cost solution. Comments appreciated.
>> As
>> an alternative the temperature correction needs to be disabled.
>> Otherwise
>> two control loops fight each other. If you look close on page 7 of the
>> brochure temperature stability from ?10 to +60 C looks good but a closer
>> look
>> and you see 4 E-11 changes over small temperature changes in the -10 to
>> 60
>> C range. Extensive analysis has been done on the FE 5680 A and maybe some
>> one can tackle that problem. Please look at what N5TNL did. It is
>> attached
>> and click on his link. The FE 5680A does have a 4 channel MAX 1246 ADC
>> and
>> most likely it is used to monitor temperature.
>> Also mentioned before the FE 5680 output is not the cleanest, I did
>> observe it and some one posted the attached. I apologize but my records
>> do
>> not
>> show who did, so if you posted the data please come forward. For serious
>> applications where you are using it as your main reference a clean up
>> like
>> the
>> Morion MV89 or HP 10811 should be considered.
>> This addition is not required for beta tests but temperature control
>> will
>> help.
>> I am also enclosing the express PCB layout, be free to use it but it
>> would
>> be more economical to do a group buy if there is enough interest and
>> some
>> one steps up to kit.
>> Bert Kehren
>> To not exceed the attachment limit the plot will be a separate posting
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> ----
>>
>>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:47:43 -0700
> From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
> Message-ID: <9077B7C22C5C490284E8F66329117C75 at pc52>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Chris,
>
> I'm glad you're making progress on your Arduino GPSDO. You've mentioned it
> in a dozen postings the past half year. Perhaps you will post the source
> code sketch, full design, and actual phase / frequency / adev results some
> day. Many of us are willing to help as independent testers and see actual
> results.
>
> Meanwhile... Now would be the time for you to let Bert have the stage; he
> has an actual working design, with PCB, and several tests in progress.
> High-performance results. This represents a year of work on his part, and
> others who have freely collaborated and contributed to all aspects of his
> project. It's really nice.
>
> Please do not hijack the thread of another time nut's superb effort. Some
> week it will be your turn to post final results of your project. This is
> not the week.
>
> Thanks,
> /tvb
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Albertson" <albertson.chris at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>
>
>> I've been working in the same thing BUT I don't want anyone who builds it
>> to need a PCB. And I want the firmware to load over USB so there is no
>> need to ship programmed chips or deal with external programmers. I
>> think
>> I can get the cost below $20. That said I doubt I'll get 1E-13
>> performance out of my Rb.
>>
>> My little Arduino based controller has been running now for a couple
>> months
>> and keeping a crystal in lock. The board has a pins left over for a
>> serial
>> port that I'll hook up to the Rb.
>>
>> The trick to getting the cost down is NOT to do a custom PCB. Take
>> advantage of one of the uP development boards and then for under $5 you
>> get
>> the USB interface, D/A and A/D, serial ports, timers and quite a bit of
>> logic all 1/3rd the size of a credit card.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:49:48 -0700
> From: "Tom Van Baak" <tvb at LeapSecond.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
> Message-ID: <B8A8B7594D9E4B499FFEE26D2A90B619 at pc52>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Albertson" <albertson.chris at gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>
>
>> I've been working in the same thing BUT I don't want anyone who builds it
>> to need a PCB. And I want the firmware to load over USB so there is no
>> need to ship programmed chips or deal with external programmers. I
>> think
>> I can get the cost below $20. That said I doubt I'll get 1E-13
>> performance out of my Rb.
>>
>> My little Arduino based controller has been running now for a couple
>> months
>> and keeping a crystal in lock. The board has a pins left over for a
>> serial
>> port that I'll hook up to the Rb.
>>
>> The trick to getting the cost down is NOT to do a custom PCB. Take
>> advantage of one of the uP development boards and then for under $5 you
>> get
>> the USB interface, D/A and A/D, serial ports, timers and quite a bit of
>> logic all 1/3rd the size of a credit card.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:57 AM, Jan Boutsen <jan.boutsen at telenet.be>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Count me in for an assembled and tested board. Great project.
>>> Jan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: <EWKehren at aol.com>
>>> To: <time-nuts at febo.com>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 8:49 PM
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> FE5680 GPS Disciplined Controller
>>> With all the FE 5680 rubidium oscillators being used as door stops out
>>> there some of us decided to develop a GPSDO for it. The main question
>>> we
>>> have:
>>> Is there sufficient interest among time nuts for a discipline
>>> controller
>>> for the FE5680 to make it available? Looking at the postings over the
>>> last
>>> two years I am not so sure.
>>> The construction and preliminary testing of a Brooks Shera style GPS
>>> discipline controller for the later version (6.81e-13 resolution) of
>>> the
>>> FE5680
>>> has been completed. We are trying to determine the number of people
>>> that
>>> would be interested in obtaining an FE5680 discipline controller (if
>>> there
>>> is
>>> sufficient interest about $45 a kit shipping included, $75 for an
>>> assembled and tested board, international orders for an additional $5)
>>> when
>>> it is
>>> released.
>>> We are also looking for three Beta testers that would be willing to
>>> purchase, assemble, and test our Beta release controller kit with their
>>> own
>>> FE5680A and GPS receiver or Tbolt and provide feedback. Please send an
>>> email to
>>> _EWKehren at aol.com_ (mailto:EWKehren at aol.com) Subject Time-Nuts FE
>>> 5680A,
>>> if you would be interested in being one of the three Beta testers. A
>>> key
>>> requirement is the willingness to get to it right away, the board
>>> assembly
>>> takes about 30 minutes. Instrumentation to measure results is also a
>>> requirement. We obtained impressive results using a cheap ublox 6M
>>> receiver.
>>>
>>> The FE5680 GPS discipline controller is a small (2? x 2?) board using 8
>>> DIP?s and 1 SOT23-5 package powered by +5v with 0.1? headers for all
>>> inputs
>>> and outputs. Our plan is to have the kit supplier solder in the only
>>> SMD
>>> device on the board. A GPS receiver 1PPS and 10 MHz sine from the
>>> FE5680
>>> feed the board with two 9600 baud serial ports sending TTL level tuning
>>> commands to the FE5680 and receiving commands from and sending status
>>> data
>>> to a
>>> PC for data logging and system control via a simple terminal program.
>>> In the chip count are two opto couplers that allow the use of isolated
>>> TTL
>>> to USB conversion. These USB adapters are readily available and furnish
>>> the 5 V necessary for the secondary of the opto circuit. An option is
>>> to
>>> not
>>> use the opto couplers and send the PIC TTL level RX and TX into a TTL
>>> to
>>> RS232 adapter. Another option is to use a TTL to RS232 converter after
>>> the
>>> opto couplers but then an external 5 V source would have to be supplied
>>> for
>>> the opto couplers.
>>> As I mentioned before to get best performance from the FE5680
>>> temperature
>>> control is a must and after much fan and metal work I realized that a
>>> Lap
>>> Top heat pipe is the easiest lowest cost solution. Comments
>>> appreciated.
>>> As
>>> an alternative the temperature correction needs to be disabled.
>>> Otherwise
>>> two control loops fight each other. If you look close on page 7 of
>>> the
>>> brochure temperature stability from ?10 to +60 C looks good but a closer
>>> look
>>> and you see 4 E-11 changes over small temperature changes in the -10 to
>>> 60
>>> C range. Extensive analysis has been done on the FE 5680 A and maybe
>>> some
>>> one can tackle that problem. Please look at what N5TNL did. It is
>>> attached
>>> and click on his link. The FE 5680A does have a 4 channel MAX 1246 ADC
>>> and
>>> most likely it is used to monitor temperature.
>>> Also mentioned before the FE 5680 output is not the cleanest, I did
>>> observe it and some one posted the attached. I apologize but my records
>>> do
>>> not
>>> show who did, so if you posted the data please come forward. For
>>> serious
>>> applications where you are using it as your main reference a clean up
>>> like
>>> the
>>> Morion MV89 or HP 10811 should be considered.
>>> This addition is not required for beta tests but temperature control
>>> will
>>> help.
>>> I am also enclosing the express PCB layout, be free to use it but it
>>> would
>>> be more economical to do a group buy if there is enough interest and
>>> some
>>> one steps up to kit.
>>> Bert Kehren
>>> To not exceed the attachment limit the plot will be a separate posting
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> ----
>>>
>>>
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> > To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> > and follow the instructions there.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
>> _______________________________________________
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts at febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 15:36:29 -0400
> From: Charles Steinmetz <csteinmetz at yandex.com>
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> <time-nuts at febo.com>
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] TBolt signal levels
> Message-ID: <20140619233641.aeva9Ykm at smtp18.mail.yandex.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>
> Tom wrote:
>
>>I'm testing several Trimble Thunderbolts here with several different
>>antenna setups: indoor/outdoor, low-gain/high-gain, patch/helix,
>>plain/choke-ring.
>>
>>Has anyone done a comparative analysis of antenna make/model/type
>>against signal levels for this receiver?
>>
>>Or is there a rule of thumb for what is consider "good" vs. "bad"
>>reception?
>
> Be careful when you say "signal levels" in connection with a
> Thunderbolt. The figure reported by the Thunderbolt is NOT the RF
> signal level, it is the carrier to noise ratio. The c/n is mostly a
> function of the antenna location, and only a weak function of the
> antenna and LNA. So mostly you switch antennas and things don't seem
> to change much unless the new antenna is in a different
> location. Unless you are looking at the antenna output with a
> spectrum analyzer or frequency-selective voltmeter/power meter, you
> will not know the relative signal levels from the different
> antennas. But c/n is what is important, so that's all good.
>
> Lots of Lady Heather screen shots have been posted on the list
> showing accumulated signal strengths (commands SAS or SAD). To be
> "good," you want to have large swaths of the plot in cool colors
> (blues and greens) (c/n over 40 dBc), and preferably mostly greens
> (c/n over 45 dBc). Look at Warren's screen shots -- his antenna
> location is pretty good. Contrast with Dave's screen shots -- his
> antenna location is adequate but not really very good.
>
> Finally, note that not all similar c/n plots represent equally good
> reception. Multipath can look like "carrier" to the Thunderbolt
> rather than "noise," so an antenna location with substantial
> multipath can look just as "good" as a location that is free from
> multipath. Depending on the direction from which the reflections
> arrive, an antenna with good multipath rejection (e.g., a choke-ring
> design) may give superior results without looking any better on the c/n
> plot.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> time-nuts mailing list
> time-nuts at febo.com
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>
> End of time-nuts Digest, Vol 119, Issue 33
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