[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Bob Camp kb8tq at n1k.org
Sun Aug 9 16:18:21 EDT 2015 

Hi

Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach 
used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well
to these devices. 

Bob

> On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH?
> Don
> 
> Bob Camp
>> Hi
>> 
>> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
>>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal
>>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and
>>> disciplining to the 1PPS.
>>> 
>>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things are
>>> looking very good.
>>> 
>>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will post
>>> that here when I am done.
>>> 
>>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
>>> project.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Dan
>>> 
>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
>>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
>>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick different
>>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with an
>>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.
>>>> 
>>>> That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon
>>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms since
>>>> then.
>>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call
>>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS receivers.
>>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you
>>>> have a LOT of changes.
>>>> 
>>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the REF-0,
>>>> with
>>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
>>>> stability /
>>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity
>>>> GPS to
>>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.
>>>> 
>>>> ============
>>>> 
>>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
>>>>> receivers.
>>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
>>>>> use a new
>>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
>>>>> messages
>>>>> required to do that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
>>>>> ASCII
>>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited
>>>>> with
>>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
>>>>> after many
>>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
>>>>> problem
>>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
>>>>> while
>>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
>>>>> two
>>>>> more groups of satellite data.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
>>>>> Considering
>>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to bill at iaxs.net
>>>>> for
>>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
>>>>> make a
>>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a
>>>>> 28 volt
>>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being
>>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
>>>>> stuff.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bill Hawkins
>>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>>>>> Camp
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
>>>>> era
>>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
>>>>> The signal
>>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
>>>>> worth
>>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound
>>>>> reasonable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
>>>>> ..
>>>>> 
>>>>> ======
>>>>> 
>>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
>>>>> The KS
>>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
>>>>> directly
>>>>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.
>>>>> 
>>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
>>>>> and there.
>>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore
>>>>> strings
>>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox,
>>>>> remember that
>>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
>>>>> fired relative to
>>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the
>>>>> time label wrong
>>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical
>>>>> evidence of
>>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
>>>>> harder to track down
>>>>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking.
>>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock.
>>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
>>>>> there is
>>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
>>>>> oncore
>>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats
>>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all
>>>>>> easily do a fixed string.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
>>>>> and
>>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code
>>>>> can be
>>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using
>>>>> a ~$1
>>>>>>> chip.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
>>>>> still be
>>>>>>> quite easy to do.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
>>>>> Jupiter-T
>>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
>>>>> nicely
>>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
>>>>> notes and
>>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes.
>>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
>>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
>>>>> after
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
>>>>> end
>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily.
>>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet.
>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
>>>>> take a
>>>>>>>>> few days
>>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What you will need:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0
>>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
>>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
>>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is
>>>>> no
>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> More to follow.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second
>>>>> REF-0
>>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> figure
>>>>>>>>> out what is needed.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
>>>>> locked in
>>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
>>>>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
>>>>> grabs
>>>>>>>>> the data off of the string
>>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off
>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
>>>>> lines"?
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
>>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> looks like the output
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
>>>>> manipulation
>>>>>>>>> of the signal lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without
>>>>> GPS,
>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
>>>>>>>>> configure it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 +
>>>>> USD
>>>>>>>>> 52.30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>> taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
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> 
> 
> -- 
> "If you don't know what it is,
> don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
> -------------------------------
> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"
> 
> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
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