[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Paul tic-toc at bodosom.net
Sun Aug 9 18:03:31 EDT 2015


A reminder: my "collection" of Z3810AS notes can be found at
http://do-nyc.bodosom.net/.
I'll keep it around until there's something better.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach
> used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally
> well
> to these devices.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
> >
> > Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH?
> > Don
> >
> > Bob Camp
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
> >>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very
> minimal
> >>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked
> and
> >>> disciplining to the 1PPS.
> >>>
> >>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But
> things are
> >>> looking very good.
> >>>
> >>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will
> post
> >>> that here when I am done.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
> >>> project.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>>
> >>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Hi
> >>>>
> >>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
> >>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
> >>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick
> different
> >>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in”
> with an
> >>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.
> >>>>
> >>>> That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore
> silicon
> >>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms
> since
> >>>> then.
> >>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to
> call
> >>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS
> receivers.
> >>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and
> you
> >>>> have a LOT of changes.
> >>>>
> >>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the
> REF-0,
> >>>> with
> >>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
> >>>> stability /
> >>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high
> sensitivity
> >>>> GPS to
> >>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.
> >>>>
> >>>> ============
> >>>>
> >>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!
> >>>>
> >>>> Bob
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent
> hardware.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
> >>>>> receivers.
> >>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
> >>>>> use a new
> >>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on
> the
> >>>>> messages
> >>>>> required to do that.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
> >>>>> ASCII
> >>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be
> edited
> >>>>> with
> >>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
> >>>>> after many
> >>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
> >>>>> problem
> >>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
> >>>>> while
> >>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference
> is
> >>>>> two
> >>>>> more groups of satellite data.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
> >>>>> Considering
> >>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to
> bill at iaxs.net
> >>>>> for
> >>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware,
> please
> >>>>> make a
> >>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled
> with a
> >>>>> 28 volt
> >>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is
> being
> >>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
> >>>>> stuff.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bill Hawkins
> >>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
> >>>>> Camp
> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
> >>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hi
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the
> SA
> >>>>> era
> >>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction
> information.
> >>>>> The signal
> >>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make
> it
> >>>>> worth
> >>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does
> sound
> >>>>> reasonable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
> >>>>> ..
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ======
> >>>>>
> >>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right
> locations.
> >>>>> The KS
> >>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same
> locations
> >>>>> directly
> >>>>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits
> here
> >>>>> and there.
> >>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the
> Oncore
> >>>>> strings
> >>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a
> uBlox,
> >>>>> remember that
> >>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
> >>>>> fired relative to
> >>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting
> the
> >>>>> time label wrong
> >>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample
> empirical
> >>>>> evidence of
> >>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
> >>>>> harder to track down
> >>>>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Bob
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking.
> >>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position
> lock.
> >>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
> >>>>> there is
> >>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
> >>>>> oncore
> >>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say
> whats
> >>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can
> all
> >>>>>> easily do a fixed string.
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
> >>>>> and
> >>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case,
> code
> >>>>> can be
> >>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone,
> using
> >>>>> a ~$1
> >>>>>>> chip.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
> >>>>> still be
> >>>>>>> quite easy to do.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
> >>>>> Jupiter-T
> >>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
> >>>>> nicely
> >>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
> >>>>> notes and
> >>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes.
> >>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
> >>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
> >>>>> after
> >>>>>>> that
> >>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
> >>>>> end
> >>>>>>> ones
> >>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily.
> >>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet.
> >>>>>>>> Paul
> >>>>>>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
> >>>>> take a
> >>>>>>>>> few days
> >>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> What you will need:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0
> >>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
> >>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
> >>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there
> is
> >>>>> no
> >>>>>>> real
> >>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> More to follow.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Bob,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a
> second
> >>>>> REF-0
> >>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
> >>>>> to
> >>>>>>> figure
> >>>>>>>>> out what is needed.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
> >>>>> locked in
> >>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
> >>>>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
> >>>>> grabs
> >>>>>>>>> the data off of the string
> >>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you
> off
> >>>>> list.
> >>>>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
> >>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
> >>>>> lines"?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
> >>>>>>> discussions.
> >>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
> >>>>> list.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy
> string
> >>>>> that
> >>>>>>>>> looks like the output
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
> >>>>> manipulation
> >>>>>>>>> of the signal lines.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
> >>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one
> without
> >>>>> GPS,
> >>>>>>>>> as a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
> >>>>>>>>> configure it?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25
> +
> >>>>> USD
> >>>>>>>>> 52.30
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
> >>>>> custom
> >>>>>>>>> taxes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> > "If you don't know what it is,
> > don't poke it."
> > Ghost in the Shell
> > -------------------------------
> > "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"
> >
> > Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
> > Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
> > Huson, MT, 59846
> > mailing address:  POBox 404
> > Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
> >
> > VOX 406-626-4304
> > CEL 406-241-5093
> > Skype: buffler2
> > www.lightningforensics.com
> > www.sixmilesystems.com
> >
> >
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