[time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone

Don Latham djl at montana.com
Sun Aug 9 21:51:30 EDT 2015


Excellent. The words can be dumped to give a better idea about what's going on?

Bob Camp
> Hi
>
> Actually it’s PForth, but yes it’s Forth. The same “dump the code” approach
> used by a crazy pair of people back a while on the Z3801 applies equally well
> to these devices.
>
> Bob
>
>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 4:02 PM, Don Latham <djl at montana.com> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone know if the underlying tongue of these devices is FORTH?
>> Don
>>
>> Bob Camp
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> And my thanks to all the others who worked on this project as well !!!
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>> On Aug 9, 2015, at 11:26 AM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A quick update for everyone. I have successfully gotten a REF-0 to run
>>>> standalone. I am using an AVR, an inexpensive GPS module and very minimal
>>>> circuitry. The 'NO GPS' light is off, and SatStat shows it is locked and
>>>> disciplining to the 1PPS.
>>>>
>>>> The stability of this needs to be assessed for a day or two. But things
>>>> are
>>>> looking very good.
>>>>
>>>> I plan to write up a complete procedure with code and pictures. I will
>>>> post
>>>> that here when I am done.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all of your help Bob, and to the others that worked on the
>>>> project.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 7:40 PM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> While the newer Oncore’s are technically backwards compatible
>>>>> with the old units, in practice (as you have noted) that’s not a 100%
>>>>> sort of thing. If you work with a new(er) Oncore, you would pick
>>>>> different
>>>>> strings to use for this sort of thing. In order to have a “drop in” with
>>>>> an
>>>>> Oncore, you do indeed need a part made before (roughly) 2001.
>>>>>
>>>>> That kicks you back to  20 year old technology (the early Oncore silicon
>>>>> came out in the mid 90’s) . A *lot* has happened in Moore’s Law terms
>>>>> since
>>>>> then.
>>>>> A lot has also happened in “aggregate volume” (what ever you want to call
>>>>> volume doubling) terms. Both of those things directly impact GPS
>>>>> receivers.
>>>>> Top that off with SA going away after the early Oncore came out and you
>>>>> have a LOT of changes.
>>>>>
>>>>> Is that all bad? Of course not. It’s what makes me focus more on the
>>>>> REF-0,
>>>>> with
>>>>> a modern GPS than on the REF-1 with an old Oncore. You have the high
>>>>> stability /
>>>>> long loop stuff from the SA era. You have a high speed, high sensitivity
>>>>> GPS to
>>>>> go with it. In many ways, that’s the best of both worlds.
>>>>>
>>>>> ============
>>>>>
>>>>> Hopefully somebody will pop up and take the gear off of your hands !!
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 8, 2015, at 1:59 PM, Bill Hawkins <bill at iaxs.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob Camp has done a fine job of explaining the recent Lucent hardware.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have two of the old pairs with Rb oscillators and poor early Oncore
>>>>>> receivers.
>>>>>> Then I got a new pair with crystals and better GPS. I got the idea to
>>>>>> use a new
>>>>>> crystal unit to pair with an old RB unit, so I did some research on the
>>>>>> messages
>>>>>> required to do that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The data was acquired with a Pico Scope set to display the bytes as
>>>>>> ASCII
>>>>>> characters. The displays can be saved as text files, which can be edited
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> explanations of the data. I have no skills with microcomputers, and
>>>>>> after many
>>>>>> years working with computers have no desire to acquire them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The messages decoded easily enough with the 1996 Oncore manual. The
>>>>>> problem
>>>>>> with mixing old and new units is that the old Oncore had six channels
>>>>>> while
>>>>>> the new one has eight. The messages don't match. The only difference is
>>>>>> two
>>>>>> more groups of satellite data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have text files (MS Word 2003) with the contents of the messages.
>>>>>> Considering
>>>>>> the low level of interest in this subject, please write to bill at iaxs.net
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> further details. If you'd like to experiment with the hardware, please
>>>>>> make a
>>>>>> reasonable offer for any of it. The new units have been assembled with a
>>>>>> 28 volt
>>>>>> 3 amp supply into a mini-rack using aluminum angle. My time lab is being
>>>>>> downsized due to a move to senior living apartments. There's other
>>>>>> stuff.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bill Hawkins
>>>>>> Bloomington, MN 55438
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-bounces at febo.com] On Behalf Of Bob
>>>>>> Camp
>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 2015 6:33 AM
>>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] KS-24361 REF-0 standalone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As far as I know, the Symmetricom / HP designs that were done in the SA
>>>>>> era
>>>>>> (this is one of them) did not use the sawtooth correction information.
>>>>>> The signal
>>>>>> spreading (at the time they were designed) was just to great to make it
>>>>>> worth
>>>>>> playing with. I have no authoritative source for that, but it does sound
>>>>>> reasonable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As with any “absolute” statement, there are sure to be exceptions
>>>>>> ..
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ======
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For the strings, you need the right status bits in the right locations.
>>>>>> The KS
>>>>>> does not care that it always sees the same sat’s at the same locations
>>>>>> directly
>>>>>> over it’s own north pole location. It just wants data in the field.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It does care about the TRAIM status and probably a few other bits here
>>>>>> and there.
>>>>>> None of them appear to be hard to guess. All of the specs for the Oncore
>>>>>> strings
>>>>>> are something Mr Google knows a lot about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you do try to synthesize *real* strings off something like a uBlox,
>>>>>> remember that
>>>>>> each of these guys had a slightly different idea about when the PPS
>>>>>> fired relative to
>>>>>> things like correction data and the time label on that PPS. Getting the
>>>>>> time label wrong
>>>>>> is pretty easy to fix. I (unfortunately) have more than ample empirical
>>>>>> evidence of
>>>>>> what getting the sawtooth correction off one second does. It’s far
>>>>>> harder to track down
>>>>>> when only looking at the “outside” of the device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 8:18 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan exactly my thinking.
>>>>>>> I will guess it wants the string that says I have a 3d position lock.
>>>>>>> Something like @@ and 30-40 characters that would be fixed.I think
>>>>>> there is
>>>>>>> a CRC at the end. But all of the message can be copied from a real
>>>>>> oncore
>>>>>>> or simply monitor what comes out of the KS GPS unit. Hard to say whats
>>>>>>> needed but a good discussion. Be it any number of uProcs they can all
>>>>>>> easily do a fixed string.
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:13 PM, D W <watsondaniel3 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, I'm hoping that it just wants a dummy string to say GPS is ok,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> doesn't actually use any information in it. If that's the case, code
>>>>>> can be
>>>>>>>> developed for PIC and AVR that will work for just about anyone, using
>>>>>> a ~$1
>>>>>>>> chip.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even if the string does need to contain real GPS info, it should
>>>>>> still be
>>>>>>>> quite easy to do.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A while back I wrote some code to parse the serial string from a
>>>>>> Jupiter-T
>>>>>>>> and display the information on a 4 line LCD display. It worked very
>>>>>> nicely
>>>>>>>> but I never did anything useful with it. I think I'll take Bob's
>>>>>> notes and
>>>>>>>> incorporate the REF-0. That would make for a very compact setup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 2:06 PM, paul swed <paulswedb at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looking forward to the notes.
>>>>>>>>> Yes it could be fairly simple if what ref 0 wants is a string that
>>>>>>>>> essentially says the system is fixed with 3 d accuracy. Perhaps
>>>>>> after
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> the ref 0 makes no checks other then the string keeps coming with
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> correct quality. Not to push a particular proc but any of the low
>>>>>> end
>>>>>>>> ones
>>>>>>>>> will do that stunt very easily.
>>>>>>>>> That would be pretty sweet.
>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Bob Camp <kb8tq at n1k.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I will write something up and post it here. It will probably
>>>>>> take a
>>>>>>>>>> few days
>>>>>>>>>> to get it all into a form that answers most of the questions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What you will need:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 1) A working REF-0
>>>>>>>>>> 2) A PIC or other micro to get things going
>>>>>>>>>> 3) A GPS with a PPS output (any will do)
>>>>>>>>>> 4) Code specific to your GPS and the needs of the REF-0
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since the Oncore needs to be set up each time it’s booted, there is
>>>>>> no
>>>>>>>> real
>>>>>>>>>> advantage to using one. You still need an MCU in the mix.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> More to follow.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 7, 2015, at 5:24 AM, Graham <planophore at aei.ca> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I would like that information too please and thank you.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have a pair that is working quite well and I also have a second
>>>>>> REF-0
>>>>>>>>>> that I want to start testing but just haven't got round to it yet
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> figure
>>>>>>>>>> out what is needed.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> cheers, Graham ve3gtc
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2015-08-07 02:39, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You need to get the Oncore running with the correct position
>>>>>> locked in
>>>>>>>>>> and spitting out the right strings.
>>>>>>>>>>>> That’s all done by the CPU in the REF-1 unit. The REF-0 simply
>>>>>> grabs
>>>>>>>>>> the data off of the string
>>>>>>>>>>>> as it comes by.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I’ll see if I can dig out the information and send it to you off
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>> It’s buried around here somewhere.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 10:02 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have some Motorola Oncore available.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you detail this "fairly simple manipulation of the signal
>>>>>> lines"?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 09:57:20PM -0400, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> People got a bit ???excited??? about the level of KS box
>>>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>>> All of the work decoding
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the 15 pin connector and how to drive the REF-0 was taken off
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Simple answer:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes you can run a REF-0 by it???s self. It needs a dummy string
>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> looks like the output
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of a Motorola Oncore to feed it and some fairly simple
>>>>>> manipulation
>>>>>>>>>> of the signal lines.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It will then quite happily discipline to the pps you feed it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2015, at 7:27 PM, Edesio Costa e Silva <
>>>>>>>>>> time-nuts at tardis.net.br> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello Fellows!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Had anyone managed to run the KS-24361 REF-0, the one without
>>>>>> GPS,
>>>>>>>>>> as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> standalone unit? If so, can you provide some links on how to
>>>>>>>>>> configure it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason to try this is cost. The REF-0 unit costs USD 25 +
>>>>>> USD
>>>>>>>>>> 52.30
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (shipping to Brazil) and I have to pay the same amount as
>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>>> taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Right now the REF-0/REF-1 pair would be too expensive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Edésio
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> "If you don't know what it is,
>> don't poke it."
>> Ghost in the Shell
>> -------------------------------
>> "Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"
>>
>> Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
>> Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
>> Huson, MT, 59846
>> mailing address:  POBox 404
>> Frenchtown MT 59834-0404
>>
>> VOX 406-626-4304
>> CEL 406-241-5093
>> Skype: buffler2
>> www.lightningforensics.com
>> www.sixmilesystems.com
>>
>>
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-- 
"If you don't know what it is,
don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell
-------------------------------
"Noli sinere nothos te opprimere"

Dr. Don Latham, AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLC, 17850 Six Mile Road
Huson, MT, 59846
mailing address:  POBox 404
Frenchtown MT 59834-0404

VOX 406-626-4304
CEL 406-241-5093
Skype: buffler2
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com




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